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View Full Version : Our owner is an idiot



brm7675
04-22-2010, 12:23 PM
Watching the game last night if our owner wasn't livid about how this team is playing and isn't all over Walt today, then old Bob is an idiot. There is no reason on earth that Walt isn't in Bob's office first thing this AM being told to fire Dusty and Price and Brooke and to bring in better people. If we had an owner with any common sense this would be taking place. God I wish Mark Cuban was our owner...

Griffey012
04-22-2010, 12:29 PM
Watching the game last night if our owner wasn't livid about how this team is playing and isn't all over Walt today, then old Bob is an idiot. There is no reason on earth that Walt isn't in Bob's office first thing this AM being told to fire Dusty and Price and Brooke and to bring in better people. If we had an owner with any common sense this would be taking place. God I wish Mark Cuban was our owner...

We could have Lindner back. Jury is still out on Price...but I don't recall any hitters getting better or acting like they know how to hit under Jacoby's watch.

Mark Cuban would be such a sweeeet owner.

mattfeet
04-22-2010, 12:34 PM
Im not sold on the fact that Price has to go. He's worked with some outstanding pitchers in his day. It's too early in the season to blame the pitching blunders on him. And honestly, I also think that Dusty is the lone reason we suck. Im hardly placing blame on the hitting/pitching coaches, at this point in time.

-Matt

mroby85
04-22-2010, 12:55 PM
I like how it's been generations of coaching staffs to blame for this teams failures and not the below average players they give them to work with. I'm not sticking up for Dusty because I think he makes terrible decisions, I'm just saying there are a lot bigger problems on this team than the people coaching it.

brm7675
04-22-2010, 01:07 PM
We may have BA players, but if you don't make some changes, shake things up a bit how do you know? Dusty refuses to change when what he is doing right now isn't working. If he was changing things up, moving around the BA, trying different things and it still wasn't working I would agree it's the players, but we don't know because Dusty is an idiot.


I like how it's been generations of coaching staffs to blame for this teams failures and not the below average players they give them to work with. I'm not sticking up for Dusty because I think he makes terrible decisions, I'm just saying there are a lot bigger problems on this team than the people coaching it.

Griffey012
04-22-2010, 01:27 PM
I like how it's been generations of coaching staffs to blame for this teams failures and not the below average players they give them to work with. I'm not sticking up for Dusty because I think he makes terrible decisions, I'm just saying there are a lot bigger problems on this team than the people coaching it.

:thumbup: Exactly, we should be more worried about the bigger problems, than the coaches right now. Because I don't care who is coaching a team of major league players, they cannot make them throw strikes, they cannot make them make plays in the field, they cannot make them hit the baseball.

The coaching staff has the biggest impact on the lineup card, in game moves, and the younger players who are still to naive to have a big head.

As for the bullpen, I won't blame that on Dusty because we had a great one last year with basically the same guys under his watch. Now for the lineup I would do some tinkering but you can't do much with 5 or 6 guys with a .300 OBP or less. Now for the horrible horrible approach at the plate I put that on Dusty and Jacobi 100% and that needs to be addressed ASAP.

I fully plan on seeing Rick Sweet managing the Reds come early June if things don't turn around, but until then the season would be much more enjoyable if we didn't blame every underlying issue on coaching instead of the players themselves. Wouldn't it be more fun to talk about how much OCab sucks in the field right now instead of beating the dead Dusty horse? We all know Dusty is not the man to right the ship with the group we have, but it was also the fault of the last 5 managers.

I find myself constantly trying to sticking up for Dusty simply because the blame that gets placed on him is more and more ridiculous everyday. It's pretty much to the point where if Stubbs misses a flyball in CF it is Dusty's fault because Stubbs should not have been out there in the situation. Or if BPhill strikes out with the bases loaded its Dusty's fault cause BPhil should not be in the 4-hole. Dusty is bad for this team, he needs to go, and he will go, but lets get a grip he maybe has a maximum of a 10% total effect on the outcome of the games and when you are losing as bad as we are, its irrelevant.

Jack Burton
04-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I agree w/ most of the original post but don't think much of the blame can be put on Price at this point.

NorrisHopper30
04-22-2010, 02:17 PM
It's been like 15 games jeez

brm7675
04-22-2010, 02:23 PM
Yes it can, this is basically the same staff as last year, whatever he is doing isn't working and it was last year.


I agree w/ most of the original post but don't think much of the blame can be put on Price at this point.

Griffey012
04-22-2010, 02:30 PM
All the pitchers on our staff's went through periods of being awful last year, we had a stretch were our bullpen couldn't get anyone out in the middle of the season. Only difference is that stretch is at the beginning of the year.

Correlation doesn't mean causation.

brm7675
04-22-2010, 02:47 PM
Sorry but outside of Rhodes, are bullpen is throwing Bp each and every outing, if you are okay with that then that's good. I am not, I am not okay with our starters (outside of Leake) looking the way they look and well the bullpen is a joke. At no point last year were they this bad. The WRONG coach was fired last year...


All the pitchers on our staff's went through periods of being awful last year, we had a stretch were our bullpen couldn't get anyone out in the middle of the season. Only difference is that stretch is at the beginning of the year.

Correlation doesn't mean causation.

Griffey012
04-22-2010, 06:25 PM
Sorry but outside of Rhodes, are bullpen is throwing Bp each and every outing, if you are okay with that then that's good. I am not, I am not okay with our starters (outside of Leake) looking the way they look and well the bullpen is a joke. At no point last year were they this bad. The WRONG coach was fired last year...

Up until last season when our pitching and bullpen were terrible up everyone was calling for Dick Pole's head. Now we should bring him back because of a 6-8 stretch. I bet you every team in the playoffs last season had a 6-8 stretch at some point.

nemesis
04-22-2010, 06:33 PM
Sorry but outside of Rhodes, are bullpen is throwing Bp each and every outing, if you are okay with that then that's good. I am not, I am not okay with our starters (outside of Leake) looking the way they look and well the bullpen is a joke. At no point last year were they this bad. The WRONG coach was fired last year...


Last I checked Price has yet to throw one pitch. How can he be blamed for constant bad pitches, horrible SS play, a LF who can't run, throw or catch?

Maybe the pressure of having to be perfect on every pitch because before this series a 3 run deficit ment a loss... There is alot blame to go around, Price isn't near that boat yet.

Just outta curiosity, who would you have come in 15 games into a season and replace them? The ones who are unemployed are because the other teams didn't think they were better than what they currently have... You expect those people to come in and do what exactly?

Jacoby is done after this year. Dusty too if they don't finish above .500. Price is to important of a piece for Chapman's development. I mean it isn't like we didn't have all kinds of pitching inconsistencies prior to Prices arrival. At some point it stops being the coaches fault and starts to becomes the pitchers. Harang has crossed that threshold. Bailey and Cueto are still a season or two away from that.

brm7675
04-22-2010, 07:22 PM
New Manager: Buck Showalter, a proven winner who takes no crap and is a in your face type of manager

Hitting Coach: I see if Tony Gwynn would be interested if not then not real sure.

Have you not been watching? We are pitching BP, teams are destroying the balls. There is a difference in just missing and throwing Bp and we right now are throwing BP.


Last I checked Price has yet to throw one pitch. How can he be blamed for constant bad pitches, horrible SS play, a LF who can't run, throw or catch?

Maybe the pressure of having to be perfect on every pitch because before this series a 3 run deficit ment a loss... There is alot blame to go around, Price isn't near that boat yet.

Just outta curiosity, who would you have come in 15 games into a season and replace them? The ones who are unemployed are because the other teams didn't think they were better than what they currently have... You expect those people to come in and do what exactly?

Jacoby is done after this year. Dusty too if they don't finish above .500. Price is to important of a piece for Chapman's development. I mean it isn't like we didn't have all kinds of pitching inconsistencies prior to Prices arrival. At some point it stops being the coaches fault and starts to becomes the pitchers. Harang has crossed that threshold. Bailey and Cueto are still a season or two away from that.

The Operator
04-23-2010, 01:15 AM
Yea, Brian Price is going nowhere.

First, he's respected as one of the better coaches in the game. Second, he's in his first year as The Reds pitching coach and he's had how many games to work with them? Canning him would be a silly move and on top of that it would also keep any other decent pitching coaches from coming here if they see Brian Price get canned in April.

Dusty? Sure. Jacoby? Absolutely. Price? No way, no how.

ukwazoo
04-24-2010, 04:52 PM
Our GM is an idiot, too. Our scouts are idiots. Our manager is an idiot, our coaches are idiots, the players are idiots, and the batboys are idiots. The ushers, ticket takers, and vendors are also idiots. The security guards are idiots and the media members are idiots.

Did I mention Gapper is an idiot?

Orodle
04-24-2010, 05:08 PM
A hitting instructor has little impact on a MLB team. Name one hitting coach that could come in and completely change our hitters around. Calling someone an idiot while blaming the hitting coach means you might be an idiot as well.

A MLB hitting coach has very little time to work with hitters. Not to mention by the time they get to the major leagues their hitting mechanics are pretty much set for their career.

Our hitters swing at crap all the time.....I blame Dusty for this philosophy, he pretty much rewards this with more playing time.

The owner isnt the problem, Jocketty isnt the problem, Price isnt the problem, Dusty is the problem and more importantly money is the problem. If the Reds weren't paying Dusty then he would already be gone.


and yes....Gapper is an idiot too

Griffey012
04-24-2010, 05:31 PM
A hitting instructor has little impact on a MLB team. Name one hitting coach that could come in and completely change our hitters around. Calling someone an idiot while blaming the hitting coach means you might be an idiot as well.

A MLB hitting coach has very little time to work with hitters. Not to mention by the time they get to the major leagues their hitting mechanics are pretty much set for their career.

Our hitters swing at crap all the time.....I blame Dusty for this philosophy, he pretty much rewards this with more playing time.

The owner isnt the problem, Jocketty isnt the problem, Price isnt the problem, Dusty is the problem and more importantly money is the problem. If the Reds weren't paying Dusty then he would already be gone.


and yes....Gapper is an idiot too

A little contradictory there, wouldn't the minor league coaching be to blame then instead of the major league coaching? I would think the manager would have less impact on the hitters than the hitting coach If you look at our lineup it is full of players who have never been patient or have always hacked at crap.

Stubbs - ridiculous minor league k numbers, solid walk number..those have continued to the bigs
OCab - hitting like he always has
Votto - hitting like he always has
BPhill - always been a hacker, and is actually more patient this season than in the past
Rolen - same ol Rolen approach
Bruce - struck out a solid amount and never walked much in the minors, still doesn't
Ramon - nobody's gonna walk him
LF mess - the are all below average ML hitters, with the exception of Gomes against lefties, oh yeah and Dickerson hacked a ridiculous amount in the minors also.

Our entire bench - straight Hackers except for Janish and Hanigan and Janish is getting a bit more PT recently.

It's impossible to say the player who hack a lot are rewarded with more PT when the guys behind them are worse at it.

Herein lies the problem...we have a ton of players who K a lot and don't walk much. That doesn't change when they are in the MLB, that develops in the low minors.

kfm
04-24-2010, 08:31 PM
A little contradictory there, wouldn't the minor league coaching be to blame then instead of the major league coaching? I would think the manager would have less impact on the hitters than the hitting coach If you look at our lineup it is full of players who have never been patient or have always hacked at crap.

Stubbs - ridiculous minor league k numbers, solid walk number..those have continued to the bigs
OCab - hitting like he always has
Votto - hitting like he always has
BPhill - always been a hacker, and is actually more patient this season than in the past
Rolen - same ol Rolen approach
Bruce - struck out a solid amount and never walked much in the minors, still doesn't
Ramon - nobody's gonna walk him
LF mess - the are all below average ML hitters, with the exception of Gomes against lefties, oh yeah and Dickerson hacked a ridiculous amount in the minors also.

Our entire bench - straight Hackers except for Janish and Hanigan and Janish is getting a bit more PT recently.

It's impossible to say the player who hack a lot are rewarded with more PT when the guys behind them are worse at it.

Herein lies the problem...we have a ton of players who K a lot and don't walk much. That doesn't change when they are in the MLB, that develops in the low minors.

This is an excellent post. It contains facts and analysis. It looks at guys history and what they are doing right now and compares the two. You are so right, you can look at guys minor league and major league perfomance and compare the two. Based on the emotional comments that are posted on here so often they would lead you to believe that the reds were given a bunch of patient high obp guys with great strike zone management and pitch recognition skills and that Dusty and Brook Jacoby made it their misson to beat that approach out of these perfect hitters. This is pure fantasy, it is not supported by anything other than emotion. However, since it focuses on players current and past performance rather than blindly blames the manager and the hitting coach it will either be widely attacked or ignored.

Griffey012
04-25-2010, 03:12 AM
A little further information regarding hacking, OBP, and Baker.

2003 Giants - OBP = .338 (Bonds .529) under Felipe Alou
2002 Giants - OBP = .344 (Bonds .582)
2001 Giants - OBP = .342 (Bonds .515)
2000 Giants - OBP = .362 (Bonds .440)
1999 Giants - OBP = .356 (Bonds .389)
1998 Giants - OBP = .353 (Bonds .438)
1997 Giants - OBP = .337 (Bonds .446)
1996 Giants - OBP = .331 (Bonds .461)
1995 Giants - OBP = .323
1994 Giants - OBP = .318
1993 Giants - OBP = .340 Baker
1992 Giants - OBP = .303 Before Baker

2007 Cubs - OBP = .333 No Baker
2006 Cubs - OBP = .319
2005 Cubs - OBP = .324
2004 Cubs - OBP = .328
2003 Cubs - OBP = .323
2002 Cubs - OBP = .321 No Baker


2010 Reds - OBP = .310
2009 Reds - OBP = .318 (No Dunn, no Griffey, no Hamilton)
2008 Reds - OBP = .321 (You take away Hamilton then trade Dunn and Griffey)
2007 Reds - OBP = .335 (Dunn, Griffey, Hamilton) No Baker
2006 Reds - OBP = .336 No Baker
2005 Reds - OBP = .339 No Baker
2004 Reds - OBP = .331 No Baker
2003 Reds - OBP = .318 No Baker
2002 Reds - OBP = .330 No Baker

Baker has his ups and downs with team OBP, and has had some 100 win seasons, and many playoff appearances with the Giants and some with the Cubs and the team OBP has varied in most of these seasons. Baker's teams with higher OBP's usually made the playoffs, heres why There are 2 constants in all these teams: All these teams had good pitching and they also had 3 or more good to great hitters. The Giants had Bonds and Jeff Kent, 2 HOF caliber talents, and also guys like Matt Williams, Rich Aurilia (in his prime), Will Clark, Jt Snow, and other solid veteran hitters. The Cubs had Aramis, DLee, Sammy, and Moises Alou. All of these guys are perennial 100 RBI type players.

We took away Dunn, Griffey, and Hamilton, our guys who had the ability to drive in 100 runs, or in the case of Griffey get on base like he drove in 100 runs. Our offense has sucked since then, and our team OBP has crumbled, which was at the time Dusty was hired to take over the team, the OBP hasn't dropped because of him, it dropped because we got rid of players who get on base.

Right now our pitching sucks, and we have Votto plus a bunch of youngsters/wannabe hitters and aging vets on offense. Let's look in the mirror for a bit, we have 1 good hitter on this team and a bunch of mediocre pitching. No coaching staff in the world wins with the players we have right now.

We are missing a straight up offensive masher. Votto is a great hitter, but we need a guy that can potentially drive in 120 runs and hit 40 hr's. We need a guy like that to plug into the 4 hole then this team can compete.

Get a change at the helm to create a spark, and trade some of our glut of prospects to get a big bat as soon as one becomes available. Then we may be talkin about something.