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membengal
04-24-2010, 02:46 PM
I don't know that Jocketty and Dusty can sit by and let today's effort and mental insanity go without a sizeable response.

1. Cueto should head to AAA for a bit. He's still too prone to mental lapses on the mound that is killing his effectiveness. Go to L'ville, and show he can be consistent and deal with adversity.

2. Stubbs. Like the idea of him, but the lack of hitting and poor timing in tossing the second out into the stands makes him a target as well. Time for some more AAA time.

3. Gomes. Should not be cut, obviously, but I would mothball him on the bench for awhile. Getting picked off of 1b like he did in that instance was bizarre.

At any rate, this kind of effort cannot pass without a response from management, and it needs to be more of a response than the inevitable "closed-door meeting" that is sure to be had before tomorrow's game.

Dusty cannot let this go unaddressed, and neither can Walt. They are crossing over to unwatchable right now, and it is late April.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 02:48 PM
Who plays in CF? It can't be Dickerson, who is playing worse than Stubbs. It can't be Heisey, who is hitting like crap in AAA. Who plays in LF?

membengal
04-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Bring Heisey up. Nix to LF for now. But you cannot let this kind of thing slide. And a stern talking to is not enough. It just isn't.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 02:52 PM
Bring Heisey up. Nix to LF for now. But you cannot let this kind of thing slide. And a stern talking to is not enough. It just isn't.

So you are going to bring up Heisey who is not hitting at all in AAA? You are going to put Nix in the outfield with a .606 OPS. I get wanting better play, but I don't think either of those is really going to make the team better right now.

membengal
04-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Yes, I am Doug. I am not comfortable with this team's attention to detail. I am not going to say Dusty should be fired, but some statement needs to be made to the roster as a whole.

And I don't see how giving Heisey a shot HURTS this team offensively. It's not like Stubbs/Dickerson are helping, and he likely won't be worse. As for Nix, he hasn't played much, but he carries a better glove to LF than Gomes does and perhaps won't get picked off 1b one inning after seeing Phillips do the same dumb thing. When the team is down 3-0.

This was a comedy of errors through six on the basepaths and in the field. It has to be addressed.

I would do so with demotions and benchings. This team is not going anywhere as currently constituted, so start sending some messages, gentle or otherwise. Cueto could use some time to work on some stuff at AAA, and Maloney is more than ready to give it another shot up here. If he's awful, and Cueto gets hot and shows some attentiont to detail throughout a series of games in AAA, bring him back in a month. It's not the end of the world. Stubbs could use some more time at AAA himself, and if he gets down there and starts hitting, and Heisey is awful, switch it back in a month. These are not shrinking violets, they are professional baseball players.

But the Reds cannot expect people to pay good money to watch effort like they are seeing from this team right now. They just can't. They can't even expect people to pay bad money to watch this...

Brutus
04-24-2010, 02:59 PM
Release 'em all. Trade 'em all. Demote 'em all.

Kind of hard to really pick a few out of the bunch. It's nearly a team-wide problem.

Will M
04-24-2010, 02:59 PM
the problem with the Reds is that 80% of the team is terrible. you can't just demote or DFA 20 players. (as much as i want to).
i do agree with membengal that the status quo is unacceptable.
some people need to be chewed out. some need a fire lit under them. a few just need to go. an additional problem is that the AAA team's offensive players as a whole also stink. there are a few guys playing well now ( ieValaika) but these are not usually the guys thought to be close to the show. plus the one pitcher there who IMO is ready (Maloney) just went on the DL for a blister problem.
sigh.

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:00 PM
PS: Forgot Maloney was on DL with blisters.

Lecure then. Or Lehr. Or Wood. They have options.

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:12 PM
Release 'em all. Trade 'em all. Demote 'em all.

Kind of hard to really pick a few out of the bunch. It's nearly a team-wide problem.

Clearly they can't do that. I am not minimizing that it is a team-wide issue. But Dusty isn't getting fired, Walt isn't quitting, and something needs to be done to address what is going on. Cueto could use some time at AAA right now, frankly. So could Stubbs. Gomes sitting for a bit is doable. Nothing I have suggested makes this team worse, at this point, and perhaps lights a fire. At the least, it makes it clear to the paying customers that the team is concerned not just about the losing, but HOW it is losing.

HokieRed
04-24-2010, 03:13 PM
PS: Forgot Maloney was on DL with blisters.

Lecure then. Or Lehr. Or Wood. They have options.

If Lecure puts up one more really strong start, I'd bring him.

Matt700wlw
04-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Haven't we talked about the same thing for 10 years?

LoganBuck
04-24-2010, 03:20 PM
My fantasy team is putting up an OPS of .600 this week, without a single Red on the team. It is early.

I don't know what you do. There isn't an answer in AAA. Leatherpants would have traded or released someone, if this kind of stuff was going on. Literally half the team stinks right now. They aren't this bad, no one is. Tony Perez was fired after 44 games. The Rockies fired Clint Hurdle on May 29 last year, after similar idiocy. They took off soon after.

Firing Brook Jacoby isn't going to solve this.

Gotta think Joe Torre is kicking himself right now.

nate
04-24-2010, 03:23 PM
I think the title should be "Time for some Demolitions"

:cool:

Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 03:30 PM
So you are going to bring up Heisey who is not hitting at all in AAA? You are going to put Nix in the outfield with a .606 OPS. I get wanting better play, but I don't think either of those is really going to make the team better right now.

I get what you're saying, but how could they do any worse? Regardless of AAA stats and production how could anyone perform worse then this starting 9?

RedsManRick
04-24-2010, 03:33 PM
The sky is falling.

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:39 PM
The sky is falling.

RMR, in all seriousness, I am not trying to knee-jerk this. The effort and attention to detail from this current crew is making this an issue well beyond the losing. That was almost, quite literally, little league-esque on the basepaths and in the field for a good chunk of the game today. The Reds cannot seriously expect people to keep paying to watch that. They just can't.

I don't know how they address it, but it must be addressed. I have outlined what I would do, and I don't consider it drastic. This isn't about winning or losing at this point, as much as it is about finding and instilling a culture that values detail and attention to playing the game the right way. If they do that, I suspect, winning will follow.

Right now though, I am not seeing it. And that is a huge issue.

westofyou
04-24-2010, 03:43 PM
The sky is falling.

Send it down and bring up the ground.

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:44 PM
I apologize for trying to discuss this here. My bad.

The Reds are awesome. The effort today was spectacular. They should stay the course.

Carry on.

GOYA
04-24-2010, 03:47 PM
With a teamwide funk like this, all fingers should point to the manager.

flyer85
04-24-2010, 03:49 PM
So you are going to bring up Heisey who is not hitting at all in AAA?Heisey has hit at each stop in the minors, he is off to a slow start. Neither Dickerson or Stubbs has ever shown much aptitiude with the bat other than their first August/September stint in the majors.

redsfaninbsg
04-24-2010, 03:49 PM
I don't post much, did start the game thread today in effort to change luck, we saw how that went. Anyway, I'm not a big stats guy, I'm a eyeball guy. I love the Reds and watch as many games as I possibly can, spend quite a bit of money on it each year from tv, net, xm, travel to games etc. What went on today was a joke; I'm used to the losing, I am not used to the complete lack of attention to detail. This is ridiculous; I learned these basics when I was eight years old. These are so called major league players; I like most will not be paying my hard earned money to travel from Southwest Virginia to Cincinnati to watch this mess when I can see better play from the local high schools.

Brutus
04-24-2010, 03:52 PM
I apologize for trying to discuss this here. My bad.

The Reds are awesome. The effort today was spectacular. They should stay the course.

Carry on.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your discussing it. I think what you're suggesting, though, is not very practical. There aren't really any better options within the organization that would make things much (if any) better.

RedsManRick
04-24-2010, 03:55 PM
I apologize for trying to discuss this here. My bad.

The Reds are awesome. The effort today was spectacular. They should stay the course.

Carry on.

There's being upset over a day's performance and then there's suggesting that we should send guys down for the specific mistakes they made during the game. I know you're reasoning is broader than that and I too am frustrating with our performances so far.

But we're 3 weeks in. There simply hasn't been enough time for us to know anything. Talent doesn't change in 3 weeks. Substituting more talent for less is rarely, if ever, the answer. Doug made the point about alternatives to Stubbs. I'd say the same for Cueto. You think he's HR prone? Wait til you watch Maloney on a regular basis.

Cueto allowed 7 hits and a walk while striking out 5 in 6 IP with just 88 pitches. Yeah, he allowed 2 HR. But ignore the specific runs allowed today for a second and that's a very solid day. HR come and go; some times you pitch well and allow a pair of dingers; other times you pitch like crap and keep the ball in the yard. Generally speaking, Cueto was just fine today. If I can a 1.33 WHIP and 7.5 K/9 from him for the season, I'd be delighted -- his ERA would be in the 4.00 range.

I get the frustration, I really do. In the past I've been the one suggesting major shakeups. But outside of Dusty making the guys run laps, take grounders, or whatever else to eliminate the stupid mistakes, we have to recognize that it's still early and we need another 3 weeks before we can really have an idea of what sort of team we have.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 03:56 PM
Heisey has hit at each stop in the minors, he is off to a slow start. Neither Dickerson or Stubbs has ever shown much aptitiude with the bat other than their first August/September stint in the majors.

Except in AAA Heisey hasn't really hit. His OBP in AAA is .320 with 339 PA there. That isn't exactly hitting at each stop. Prior to AAA, yes, Heisey hit at each level at a good rate. But AAA seems to be the point where something is missing for him. The power is there still, but his K/BB is 3/1 in AAA and 1.41/1 everywhere else. There is a reason to question if Heisey has found his ceiling.

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:57 PM
So they just trudge on. Running the bases like they are brain-dead. Pitching like they have no clue. Yay. The team and a lot of the fanbase throws up hands and says what-can-you-do. Well, great.

Development of its youth is a prime goal for this team. Cueto is regressing at the moment. Why would some time in AAA hurt him? How would it hurt the team? Stubbs is struggling. That's being kind. How would sending him back to AAA hurt him? How would it hurt the team?

Why can't twin purposes of paying attention to developmental needs AND addressing what was, frankly, as bad an effort as I can recall a Reds team turning in (and that's saying something) doable?

membengal
04-24-2010, 03:58 PM
Except in AAA Heisey hasn't really hit. His OBP in AAA is .320 with 339 PA there. That isn't exactly hitting at each stop. Prior to AAA, yes, Heisey hit at each level at a good rate. But AAA seems to be the point where something is missing for him. The power is there still, but his K/BB is 3/1 in AAA and 1.41/1 everywhere else. There is a reason to question if Heisey has found his ceiling.

On a team where Stubbs' ceiling was arguably AA, what does it harm them to give Heisey a shot for awhile, and let Stubbs work some of this out at AAA?

membengal
04-24-2010, 04:00 PM
As for Cueto today, RMR, it was more of the same. He gets one bad break on a close call on a pitch at the plate, or, in today's case, the close call at 3b that went against the Reds, and he melts. And he loses innings. It has been the same things for over two years now. He is AWFUL at dealing with adversity in the course of a game. That may be something that can be addressed in AAA. I would rather it be dealt with there than in the majors. He's still young, there is no reason that he cannot deal with some of this in L'ville.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 04:02 PM
On a team where Stubbs' ceiling was arguably AA, what does it harm them to give Heisey a shot for awhile, and let Stubbs work some of this out at AAA?

Stubbs AAA OBP was 33 points higher than Heisey's is right now. Heisey is hitting .233 with a .309 OBP in AAA. Don't you think maybe he should be in AAA to work some of his issues out as well? I get it. The Reds have a bunch of guys hitting like they belong in the minors, but you know what, a lot of the AAA guys are hitting like they belong in AA right now too. Zack Cozart has a .323 OBP that is 3rd best on the team of the regulars. The options we want just aren't there right now to call up.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 04:07 PM
As for Cueto today, RMR, it was more of the same. He gets one bad break on a close call on a pitch at the plate, or, in today's case, the close call at 3b that went against the Reds, and he melts. And he loses innings. It has been the same things for over two years now. He is AWFUL at dealing with adversity in the course of a game. That may be something that can be addressed in AAA. I would rather it be dealt with there than in the majors. He's still young, there is no reason that he cannot deal with some of this in L'ville.

How would you propose he learn to deal with adversity in AAA that he simply couldn't learn here?

Tony Cloninger
04-24-2010, 04:10 PM
This is what happens when the players believe the hype.....or are trying to hard to live up to it.

Cueto is a head case...like Soto was but without Soto's talent. IMO.

Maybe someone needs to turn over the post meal buffet and tell them they can go and eat on their own dime.....since they are obviously not earning their money on the field.

fearofpopvol1
04-24-2010, 04:10 PM
The bigger issue, though it relates to the bad performance, is the Reds are digging a pretty big hole. If they get swept tomorrow, they are already 5 games under 500. And we're only 3 weeks in.

Not that most of us did think the Reds would make the playoffs this year or anything.

membengal
04-24-2010, 04:12 PM
Doug, because it will happen there too, and he can deal with it there without the Reds losing games. He's NOT progressed in two plus years Doug, in dealing with adversity in the big league level. He simply has not and is not. So, why exactly, should he not deal with that AAA? What is so bad about AAA for a short moment or two for a guy like Cueto? It's not a death sentence. Good gravy, the Jays once pin-wheeled Roy Halladay from the big leagues all the way back to A ball.

Why the reticence to address issues? I don't think Cueto is that fragile. I am, in all seriousness, trying to make clear that my opinion is that his development is stalled, and they have options for addressing issues.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Doug, because it will happen there too, and he can deal with it there without the Reds losing games. He's NOT progressed in two plus years Doug, in dealing with adversity in the big league level. He simply has not and is not. So, why exactly, should he not deal with that AAA? What is so bad about AAA for a short moment or two for a guy like Cueto? It's not a death sentence. Good gravy, the Jays once pin-wheeled Roy Halladay from the big leagues all the way back to A ball.

Why the reticence to address issues? I don't think Cueto is that fragile. I am, in all seriousness, trying to make clear that my opinion is that his development is stalled, and they have options for addressing issues.
You failed to answer the question though. What can be done to 'teach' Cueto to deal with adversity in AAA that you can't 'teach' him in the majors? Unless you have an answer for that, sending him to AAA does no one any good. What if he goes down there and just overwhelms the competition and never faces adversity, which is likely to happen?

As for Halladay, he was sent back down to completely change his mechanics.

GADawg
04-24-2010, 04:23 PM
I don't post much, did start the game thread today in effort to change luck, we saw how that went. Anyway, I'm not a big stats guy, I'm a eyeball guy. I love the Reds and watch as many games as I possibly can, spend quite a bit of money on it each year from tv, net, xm, travel to games etc. What went on today was a joke; I'm used to the losing, I am not used to the complete lack of attention to detail. This is ridiculous; I learned these basics when I was eight years old. These are so called major league players; I like most will not be paying my hard earned money to travel from Southwest Virginia to Cincinnati to watch this mess when I can see better play from the local high schools.


hey I grew up in Richlands...made that trip to Cincy a thousand times...through Pikeville, across the 'ol Mountain Parkway,etc,etc..miss those days a bunch.

membengal
04-24-2010, 04:26 PM
You failed to answer the question though. What can be done to 'teach' Cueto to deal with adversity in AAA that you can't 'teach' him in the majors? Unless you have an answer for that, sending him to AAA does no one any good. What if he goes down there and just overwhelms the competition and never faces adversity, which is likely to happen?

As for Halladay, he was sent back down to completely change his mechanics.

Well, gee, Doug, I am not a major league GM or manager or pitching coach, but I am guessing, that there are indeed things that can be dealt with to teach such things at AAA as opposed to the big leagues. But, hey, congrats on winning "gotcha" because I cannot specifically give you such a drill or approach.

You are right. Cueto is GREAT and the issues can totally be worked out in the big leagues only.

redsfaninbsg
04-24-2010, 04:27 PM
hey I grew up in Richlands...made that trip to Cincy a thousand times...through Pikeville, across the 'ol Mountain Parkway,etc,etc..miss those days a bunch.

I enjoy the trip and make it several times a year, usually. If the act doesn't straighten up I wont be going this year. I grew up in Big Stone Gap and currently live in Appalachia.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 04:30 PM
Well, gee, Doug, I am not a major league GM or manager or pitching coach, but I am guessing, that there are indeed things that can be dealt with to teach such things at AAA as opposed to the big leagues. But, hey, congrats on winning "gotcha" because I cannot specifically give you such a drill or approach.

You are right. Cueto is GREAT and the issues can totally be worked out in the big leagues only.

Well woohoo for me. That is exactly what I was trying to do.

You seem pretty confident that you know Cueto can't deal with adversity, and want him to learn to do so, but your only answer to it is send him to AAA and bring up someone else. My contention is, if there is something that you can 'teach' someone to better deal with adversity, then they can learn it in MLB just as well as AAA. I also contend that Cueto is a better option than anything we have in AAA right now. Whether he has improved or not in 2 years doesn't change that.

mth123
04-24-2010, 04:42 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with your discussing it. I think what you're suggesting, though, is not very practical. There aren't really any better options within the organization that would make things much (if any) better.

So Walt did screw-up?

Brutus
04-24-2010, 07:04 PM
So Walt did screw-up?

Not really, in my opinion. Organizations typically put their best guys on the field. If those guys aren't living up to expectations or potential, you wouldn't naturally expect that you would have a ton of better options in the short term.

Benihana
04-24-2010, 07:11 PM
How would you propose he learn to deal with adversity in AAA that he simply couldn't learn here?

Doug, are you prepared to admit that maybe Drew Stubbs is either not ready for the big leagues or not going to be the player you thought he was?

mth123
04-24-2010, 07:19 PM
Not really, in my opinion. Organizations typically put their best guys on the field. If those guys aren't living up to expectations or potential, you wouldn't naturally expect that you would have a ton of better options in the short term.

He screwed-up by not having better options in the first place. The last two off-seasons pretty much everyone on ths board knew SS was a hole. We've been clamoring for an OF bat to replace Dunn. We knew a middle of the order with Phillips in the clean-up spot was no good. Counting on a guy who put up a .713 OPS in 400 AAA PAs last year seemed risky.

I may give him a pass on the pitching so far, but even in that area, the glut of guys needing to be prepared to start in spring left them all without enough work and unprepared. That is on the organization (Walt and his staff including Dusty and the coaches) for not separating the wheat from the chaff sooner.

He's going with the best of a bad lot and he did little to upgrade it and IMO he screwed up by not having a few better guys.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 07:19 PM
Doug, are you prepared to admit that maybe Drew Stubbs is either not ready for the big leagues or not going to be the player you thought he was?

After 40 at bats? Of course not. I don't think he is anywhere as bad as he is playing right now. Same goes for Dickerson, Gomes, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Harang, Masset or Brandon Phillips.

Benihana
04-24-2010, 07:22 PM
After 40 at bats? Of course not. I don't think he is anywhere as bad as he is playing right now. Same goes for Dickerson, Gomes, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Harang, Masset or Brandon Phillips.

I was thinking more of the 230 Major League ABs, not to mention Spring Training. He has very similar numbers through those 230 ABs to Wily Taveras. Strangely enough, he also had similar minor league numbers. You don't think there there is a pattern there?

Every one of the players you mentioned has a history of performing much better at the major and/or minor league level. Stubbs doesn't really have either. It's not as if no one around here saw this coming.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 07:30 PM
I was thinking more of the 230 Major League ABs. He has very similar numbers through those 230 ABs to Wily Taveras. Strangely enough, he also had similar minor league numbers. You don't think there there is a pattern there?

Every one of the players you mentioned has a history of performing much better at the major and/or minor league level. Stubbs doesn't really have either. It's not as if no one around here saw this coming.

Willy Taveras has 8 career HRs in 2300 at bats. Stubbs has 9 in 239 at bats. Sorry, but a week where Stubbs goes 12-30 with 4 walks makes a dramatic difference to his career levels..... nowhere near enough to 'give up' on someone. And yeah, Stubbs does indeed have a career of being better than a 161/283/265 line.

Some times people get way to excited to proclaim 'I told you so'. 40 at bats in 2010 is way too early for it. His 2009 season looked pretty good, so you really are just trying to say 'Told you so' based on 40 at bats.

Benihana
04-24-2010, 07:38 PM
Willy Taveras has 8 career HRs in 2300 at bats. Stubbs has 9 in 239 at bats. Sorry, but a week where Stubbs goes 12-30 with 4 walks makes a dramatic difference to his career levels..... nowhere near enough to 'give up' on someone. And yeah, Stubbs does indeed have a career of being better than a 161/283/265 line.

Some times people get way to excited to proclaim 'I told you so'. 40 at bats in 2010 is way too early for it. His 2009 season looked pretty good, so you really are just trying to say 'Told you so' based on 40 at bats.

Everyone thought that Stubbs' power last year was pretty flukish, as it had never been seen at any level in the minors before. Look at their slash numbers, and explain to me where their career numbers are dramatically different.

His 2009 season looked pretty good? I'm assuming you mean the .713 OPS in Louisville through 472 ABs nothwithstanding?

I'm not trying to say I told you so after 40 ABs. In case you haven't noticed, I've been saying it every year, and he has built a track record of over 1600 professional ABs to corroborate it.

As always I hope that I'm wrong and Stubbs becomes Eric Davis, but that hope is becoming fainter and fainter with every day/week/month that goes by. Eric Davis put up a .399/.593/.991 line for the Reds when he was Stubbs' age. Stubbs hasn't done anything remotely approaching that at any level in his entire professional career. We're not talking about a guy like Jay Bruce that has dominated the minors but yet to find himself in the bigs, we're talking about a guy who has been underwhelming at every step along the way- while everyone seemed to just hope that he would figure it out mainly because he was a Top 10 pick.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 07:45 PM
Everyone thought that Stubbs' power last year was pretty flukish, as it had never been seen at any level in the minors before. Look at their slash numbers, and explain to me where their career numbers are dramatically different.

His 2009 season looked pretty good? I'm assuming you mean the .713 OPS in Louisville through 472 ABs nothwithstanding?

I'm not trying to say I told you so after 40 ABs. In case you haven't noticed, I've been saying it every year, and he has built a track record of over 1600 professional ABs to corroborate it.

As always I hope that I'm wrong and Stubbs becomes Eric Davis, but that hope is becoming fainter and fainter with every day/week/month that goes by. Eric Davis put up a .399/.593/.991 line for the Reds when he was Stubbs' age. Stubbs hasn't done anything remotely approaching that at any level in his entire professional career. We're not talking about a guy like Jay Bruce that has dominated the minors but yet to find himself in the bigs, we're talking about a guy who has been underwhelming at every step along the way- while everyone seemed to just hope that he would figure it out mainly because he was a Top 10 pick.

Stubbs has a much higher isoD and clearly has more power than Willy Taveras. The only things they have in common are position and speed. The thing is, you are using 40 at bats, because his previous ones all showed he was a different player than he has been for his last 40.

klw
04-24-2010, 08:01 PM
There I was afraid this would be a thread endorsing sending me back to the Sun Deck. My IQ/p ratio has been low of late. My xIQ/p is still solid however.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 08:10 PM
There I was afraid this would be a thread endorsing sending me back to the Sun Deck. My IQ/p ratio has been low of late. My xIQ/p is still solid however.

My headache per post read has been climbing lately.

Benihana
04-24-2010, 08:12 PM
Stubbs has a much higher isoD and clearly has more power than Willy Taveras. The only things they have in common are position and speed. The thing is, you are using 40 at bats, because his previous ones all showed he was a different player than he has been for his last 40.

He does have more power, but most of that is tied up in "potential" power.

Obviously he is not the same exact player. His defense is better and he projects for more power. But for most of his professional career, he has pretty much provided very similar overall production.

If you really believe I am "using 40 at bats, because his previous ones all showed he was a different player than he has been for his last 40" then please go on the Minor League Forum and look at the Heisey vs. Stubbs Thread. This argument has existed for years- YEARS!

Of course he can't be as bad as he has been for the first 40 at-bats, that would actually be almost historically bad. Maybe his 2010 is a little worse than what he is, but his 2009 was certainly better than what he is- just look at his HR totals from 1600 minor league at-bats. The point is if you look at the overall course of his career, his numbers suggest that his current career major league OPS of .715 is about right, if not high. That just doesn't cut it for a starter in this league, at least not by my standards. I don't care how good his glove is.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 08:23 PM
The point is if you look at the overall course of his career, his numbers suggest that his current career major league OPS of .715 is about right, if not high. That just doesn't cut it for a starter in this league, at least not by my standards. I don't care how good his glove is.

Then your standards are just simply wrong unless you are running a team where you can literally have a Top 5 value guy at every position on the field. Stubbs with a .715 OPS is probably a Top 10 center fielder in baseball.

Raisor
04-24-2010, 08:43 PM
T. Stubbs with a .715 OPS is probably a Top 10 center fielder in baseball.

problem is, who's the bad fielder in CF that Stubbs would be replacing in the top ten?

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 08:49 PM
problem is, who's the bad fielder in CF that Stubbs would be replacing in the top ten?

Might not have to be a bad fielder. Just someone who is average. Assuming the average CF is good for a .760 OPS over 600 AB's is worth about 86 runs. Stubbs over that same time at a .715 would be worth 75 runs. Essentially a win less with the bat. However Stubbs gains about 2 full wins vs the average with the glove, so overall is about a full win better than the average center fielder at a .715 OPS. Is that top 10? I don't know completely, but it sure isn't someone you should say isn't going to 'cut it'.

Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 09:23 PM
After 40 at bats? Of course not. I don't think he is anywhere as bad as he is playing right now. Same goes for Dickerson, Gomes, Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, Harang, Masset or Brandon Phillips.

What about Bruce

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 09:30 PM
What about Bruce

Absolutely not. Its beyond dumb to give up on someone at this point in the season unless they are clearly hurt. If anyone of the Reds had these same 50 at bats in the middle of July, no one would hardly notice.

Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 09:34 PM
Absolutely not. Its beyond dumb to give up on someone at this point in the season unless they are clearly hurt. If anyone of the Reds had these same 50 at bats in the middle of July, no one would hardly notice.

I just meant, do you think he'll be better then he's been so far; not actually giving up on him after 40 at-bats. I just don't want to see him hit .230 again.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 09:37 PM
I just meant, do you think he'll be better then he's been so far; not actually giving up on him after 40 at-bats. I just don't want to see him hit .230 again.

Is there a reason to believe he will hit .230 again? Nothing he has done so far suggests he will, so why would we believe he will?