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Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 04:28 PM
on this day, no one and I mean no one is free from something they did poorly. On the laundry list:

Throwing the ball into the stands with two outs! I was taught to keep my head in the game in little league! Stubbs isn't a good enough player to be doing stuff like that at this stage in the game.

Jay Bruce missing fastballs right down the middle of the plate. Hitting .180. I'm tired of excusing him. He doesn't look right. Not at all.

Johnny Cueto's inability to put a start together. Had good stuff today, yet still managed to get hammered pretty good in spells. Nice base running as well.

I'm tired of seeing Joey Votto go down to one knee when he swings a bat. He does this nearly one at bat a game now, sometimes more. He's gone from a sure-bet that we all thought we had to a guy who now really has no business hitting third in any MLB lineup let alone ours. Joey, big league hitters don't hit from a knee, no excuses. Stop doing it. It looks terrible. It's Bush League.

Brandon Phillips. Not a clean up hitter. Whatever. Did he get picked off?

Gomes. No range in left field. Poor Pony League angle at the ball hit to left field that ended up a double. Swings at a first pitch down 5 runs and pops it safely into right field. Really the micro-cosm of the whole lineup. He goes up there hacking at fastballs down the middle and if he doesn't get it, automatic out. Lack of an approach in every plate appearance which is why he's not really a decent big league hitter and never has been. He also was picked off.

Ramon Hernandez is done. He's a singles hitter at best, a .230-.240 singles hitter. What does he bring to the table? Maybe he's a good cook or something I don't know. But he's bad on the field and Hanigan needs to be in the lineup 75% of the time.

I am so sick and tired of this team looking worse then the way 28 or 29 other teams in MLB look on a given day. They win ugly. The losses are ugly. They lose big. They look flat. They can't play from behind very well. They don't hit in the clutch. They don't play especially smart baseball.

This is a poor group of 25 and honestly, blow it up. You can say "wait until Memorial Day" but things aren't getting better. I don't care if Dusty comes back or not after this year, he doesn't deserve it and Bryan Price is a real schlup as a pitching coach as well. I don't need to see 162 to know that this team lacks a LOT and I don't care if every one of them isn't here next year.

You try something and if it doesn't work, you try something else. It's time to go back to the drawing board with a lot of these guys, including the sure bets we thought we had in Bruce, and Votto.

redsfan30
04-24-2010, 04:35 PM
Can't argue with anything. I've been one of the more optimistic people on this board over these many years but I think over the past calendar year my eyes have really been opened up.

This team is not fun to watch. I wish I could quit this team but.....I can't. I'll be right back in front of the TV at 1:10 tomorrow afternoon.

Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 04:52 PM
This team is not fun to watch. I wish I could quit this team but.....I can't. I'll be right back in front of the TV at 1:10 tomorrow afternoon.

Thats why I'm angry. You hit the nail on the head. I usually fight to find the positives but right now I cannot lie to myself and what my eyes are seeing.

They're just not fun to watch. The gameplay looks 'bottled' to a sense, almost like its a predictable group with every at-bat's result or outcome. How could anyone with MLB credentials (front office, management, coaches, scouting) have thought this group had enough to get it done? Not only are they not talented, but they're really short on character. There's no leader. They're a bunch of lambs walking willfully into slaughter. No fire, no passion, nothing.

They're a bunch of guys who have never really won anything at the MLB level and they're fine just to play their 9 innings and go home, win or lose.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 05:09 PM
Sometimes the other guys are just better than you are.

KronoRed
04-24-2010, 05:33 PM
Sometimes the other guys are just better than you are.

Impossible.

steig
04-24-2010, 05:42 PM
Sometimes the other guys are just better than you are.

Right now the other guys are always better and there are no signs of this changing.

alloverjr
04-24-2010, 06:12 PM
Sometimes the other guys are just better than you are.

for a decade now

HokieRed
04-24-2010, 06:18 PM
I'm optimistic because we're now really seeing how bad the current talent is and the need for near complete overhaul. It's entirely possible, it seems to me, that Leake is the only member of this year's rotation that will be here in 2011.

Caveat Emperor
04-24-2010, 06:21 PM
I'm optimistic because we're now really seeing how bad the current talent is and the need for near complete overhaul. It's entirely possible, it seems to me, that Leake is the only member of this year's rotation that will be here in 2011.

The team is unable / unwilling to spend the money for a complete overhaul. If that's what you're looking for, you're pretty much writing off the next 3-5 years as new players come through the minor league system.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 06:30 PM
Right now the other guys are always better and there are no signs of this changing.

Except for those 7 times this year when we have won. And there are signs of it changing.... a lot of our guys are playing under their true skill level. Cueto, Bailey, Arroyo and Harang aren't of the 7.00 ERA talent, it is just what they have done so far. The entire team isn't a sub .700 OPS team outside of Votto and Rolen, its just how they have performed through 50 at bats each.

HokieRed
04-24-2010, 06:35 PM
The team is unable / unwilling to spend the money for a complete overhaul. If that's what you're looking for, you're pretty much writing off the next 3-5 years as new players come through the minor league system.


Doesn't matter. What has to be the beginning place is straightforward assessment of the talent. Trying to add to a base that just isn't good enough will only result in even more lost decades (of which I don't have many remaining.)

KronoRed
04-24-2010, 06:42 PM
Blow it up? this team is what you get when you blow a team up, a lot of young guys, some of whom will stick others who will go the way of Todd Dunwoody and Chris Gruler, that is what 2010 is about in Reds baseball.

GADawg
04-24-2010, 06:54 PM
the biggest disappointment for me so far this season has probably been Bryan Price. I usually point the finger at the talent but there's no arguing the fact that the Reds have quality arms and obviously aren't getting anything out of them. I guess I was expecting a new philosophy...a new mindset...a new attitude but it seems like more of the same. I hate the nibbling, the falling behind and going fat in the strike zone, the apparent fear of pitching inside and getting guys off the plate.

the offense obviously is frustrating too but I kinda expected that anyway. Phillips is one of my favorites but he's a joke in the cleanup role...I'd move him to leadoff and hopefully change his mindset. I'd get rid of Jacoby and find Greg Vaughn....he's still bound to have a presence about him.

mth123
04-24-2010, 06:55 PM
Blow it up? this team is what you get when you blow a team up, a lot of young guys, some of whom will stick others who will go the way of Todd Dunwoody and Chris Gruler, that is what 2010 is about in Reds baseball.

Exactly. Struggling through guys who are up too soon (Stubbs and his .713 2009 AAA OPS for example) or crummy guys holding a spot while the kids develop on the farm (Cabrera, Hernandez, Cairo, etc.). This team already blew up what little it had when Dunn was dealt. Now it needs to grow up and add some better pieces where there isn't a solution on hand.

Benihana
04-24-2010, 07:00 PM
List of disappointments for me- in order:

1. Homer Bailey
2. Jay Bruce
3. Johnny Cueto
4. Brian Price
5. Drew Stubbs (I kind of expected him to suck)
6. Aaron Harang (ditto, although maybe not this bad)
7. Orlando Cabrera's defense
8. Edinson Volquez's PEDs

List of pleasant surprises
1. Mike Leake
2. Scott Rolen

That's it.

Will M
04-24-2010, 09:38 PM
List of pleasant surprises
1. Mike Leake
2. Scott Rolen

That's it.

Hanigan & Janish have played well in their limited playing time.

Joey has a .940 OPS.

CoCo has been pretty good except for that one night in Pittsburgh.

Middle relief (DRH, Rhodes, Owings & the much maligned Lincoln) have done ok.

Thats about 40% of the roster that has played like they belong in the major leagues.

redhawkfish
04-24-2010, 10:09 PM
Hanigan & Janish have played well in their limited playing time.

Joey has a .940 OPS.

CoCo has been pretty good except for that one night in Pittsburgh.

Middle relief (DRH, Rhodes, Owings & the much maligned Lincoln) have done ok.

Thats about 40% of the roster that has played like they belong in the major leagues.

I am seeing Votto's OPS at a still excellent .884

Razor Shines
04-25-2010, 01:22 AM
I'm tired of seeing Joey Votto go down to one knee when he swings a bat. He does this nearly one at bat a game now, sometimes more. He's gone from a sure-bet that we all thought we had to a guy who now really has no business hitting third in any MLB lineup let alone ours. Joey, big league hitters don't hit from a knee, no excuses. Stop doing it. It looks terrible. It's Bush League.



.

So you're saying he shouldn't be hitting third for us? Who should? Joey Votto has been fine this season, actually he's been pretty incredible considering he has no protection from the guy in front of him or behind him. I'll take .290 .400 .484 .884 out of him, I'm not sure how much more we should be expecting. He OPSs around .900 for the year I won't care if he goes down to one knee once every PA. If Bush League gets you Joey's numbers then we need some more Bush League guys because Joey is CLEARLY not one of the problems on this team, he's been a bright spot.

I'm sure he's pressing a little right now. Who can blame him? He knows he's the force in our lineup, but he's constantly getting pitched around. For the most part he's handled it well and taken his walk. Complaining about Joey Votto is about as silly as it gets.

TheNext44
04-25-2010, 11:17 AM
In my 30+ years of watching this game, games like yesterdays are more likely to lead to turning the team around and a winnning streak than it is to more losses.

_Sir_Charles_
04-25-2010, 11:36 AM
In my 30+ years of watching this game, games like yesterdays are more likely to lead to turning the team around and a winnning streak than it is to more losses.

Agreed. But only if someone lets them have it afterwards. I don't care if it's Baker, Jocketty, a player on the team or the freaking janitor. SOMEBODY needs to rip them a new one for yesterday's effort. Shaking up the roster just isn't really an option right now. Just about all of AAA is scuffling too.

Ghosts of 1990
04-25-2010, 12:14 PM
Agreed. But only if someone lets them have it afterwards. I don't care if it's Baker, Jocketty, a player on the team or the freaking janitor. SOMEBODY needs to rip them a new one for yesterday's effort. Shaking up the roster just isn't really an option right now. Just about all of AAA is scuffling too.

I don't know if they have what it takes to put together winning streaks of more then 3 and 4 games.

TheNext44
04-25-2010, 12:42 PM
I don't know if they have what it takes to put together winning streaks of more then 3 and 4 games.

Why not? It's basically the same team that pullled off a great run at the end of last year.

Raisor
04-25-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm tired of seeing Joey Votto go down to one knee when he swings a bat. He does this nearly one at bat a game now, sometimes more. He's gone from a sure-bet that we all thought we had to a guy who now really has no business hitting third in any MLB lineup let alone ours. Joey, big league hitters don't hit from a knee, no excuses. Stop doing it. It looks terrible. It's Bush League.

.

Once again, Reds fans eat their own.

There's too many legit bad things going on with the team then to try to invent new ones.

Benihana
04-25-2010, 02:23 PM
Hanigan & Janish have played well in their limited playing time.

Joey has a .940 OPS.

CoCo has been pretty good except for that one night in Pittsburgh.

Middle relief (DRH, Rhodes, Owings & the much maligned Lincoln) have done ok.

Thats about 40% of the roster that has played like they belong in the major leagues.

Votto and Cordero don't really qualify as "Pleasant Surprises." They are performing as the best player on the team and $12MM closer should (and I'm happy for it.)

Ghosts of 1990
04-25-2010, 02:55 PM
Once again, Reds fans eat their own.

There's too many legit bad things going on with the team then to try to invent new ones.

I think a reason that we eat our own; is that happens in cities where losing has been rampant; even constant for a decade or more.

And it's nothing compared to Philly or New York when they disappoint. Trust me.

jmcclain19
04-25-2010, 07:03 PM
Except for those 7 times this year when we have won.

"How'd we ever win 8"

"It's a miracle"

"...it's a miracle"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLMl0CLIDLg

TheNext44
04-25-2010, 07:08 PM
I think a reason that we eat our own; is that happens in cities where losing has been rampant; even constant for a decade or more.

And it's nothing compared to Philly or New York when they disappoint. Trust me.

Actually, nothing like Philly when theY win. Most negative fans in the game and proud of it. (kinda explains FCB)

after the Phils won the World Series in 08, I asked a friend whose a Philly fan "what are you going o complain about now". He replied "you think this let's them off the hook? They still have no starting pitching, crappy middle relief, no catcher, no thirdbaseman, no leadoff hitter, and Howard still strikes out too much." This was the night they won the World Series.

PuffyPig
04-25-2010, 08:15 PM
I'm optimistic because we're now really seeing how bad the current talent is and the need for near complete overhaul. It's entirely possible, it seems to me, that Leake is the only member of this year's rotation that will be here in 2011.

Small sample sizes should never be acted upon in any meaningful way.

You dump Cueto and Bailey becuase of a few bad starts and it will be years before we get anyone with their potential.

What are you going to do when leake has a bad start or two, which will happen.

HokieRed
04-25-2010, 08:24 PM
Nobody in RZ has been a bigger supporter than I have of Bailey, and I continue to be. Ditto Jay Bruce. I said it's possible Leake's the only guy from this year's rotation that is here next year, and I think that's a completely defensible statement. Next year's rotation could be TOR guy from outside, Chapman, Leake, Wood, Maloney. If that is the rotation, it will mean Walt has moved Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez--not to mention Harang and Arroyo, both of whom I consider virtually unmovable--and that's probably about what we'll need to spend to find the pieces we need to be serious contenders.

traderumor
04-25-2010, 08:28 PM
Nobody in RZ has been a bigger supporter than I have of Bailey, and I continue to be. Ditto Jay Bruce. I said it's possible Leake's the only guy from this year's rotation that is here next year, and I think that's a completely defensible statement. Next year's rotation could be TOR guy from outside, Chapman, Leake, Wood, Maloney. If that is the rotation, it will mean Walt has moved Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez--not to mention Harang and Arroyo, both of whom I consider virtually unmovable--and that's probably about what we'll need to spend to find the pieces we need to be serious contenders.If Walt can move on from his WT bad contract, and save on the rest of the contract to boot, I think he can manage finding a taker for Harang and/or Arroyo, and come out ahead in the deal. Every team in MLB thinks that they can fix the guy that is not getting it done in his current home, esp. if they have had sustained success.

HokieRed
04-25-2010, 08:51 PM
If Walt can move on from his WT bad contract, and save on the rest of the contract to boot, I think he can manage finding a taker for Harang and/or Arroyo, and come out ahead in the deal. Every team in MLB thinks that they can fix the guy that is not getting it done in his current home, esp. if they have had sustained success.

I hope you're right but I doubt it. Maybe Arroyo, Harang unlikely. While he's at it, I hope he can find a taker for Phillips.

Ron Madden
04-25-2010, 08:59 PM
I hope you're right but I doubt it. Maybe Arroyo, Harang unlikely. While he's at it, I hope he can find a taker for Phillips.


I'm with you Hokie'. Phillips is on the verge of becoming one of the most over-paid players in Reds history.

IslandRed
04-25-2010, 09:50 PM
I hope you're right but I doubt it. Maybe Arroyo, Harang unlikely. While he's at it, I hope he can find a taker for Phillips.

Last year, the main thing teams were looking for, as important or more so as "good enough to help," was "lack of future salary obligation." Harang and Arroyo are in their walk years with reasonable buyouts, so a market should be there if they're pitching decently. Phillips would be the unmovable guy if last year's trade-deadline dynamic holds.

westofyou
04-25-2010, 10:42 PM
Except for those 7 times this year It's the 6 wins by 1 run and 7 losses of at least 3 or more runs that worry me.

Those are bad odds and say a lot about the current state of the team, as they've been lucky to not have lost more.

PuffyPig
04-26-2010, 12:03 AM
If that is the rotation, it will mean Walt has moved Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez--not to mention Harang and Arroyo, both of whom I consider virtually unmovable--and that's probably about what we'll need to spend to find the pieces we need to be serious contenders.

Our only hope to be serious contenders in the next few years rest largely on the arms of Bailey, Cueto and Volquez (along with Leake and Chapman).

I can't think of any logical reason why we would give up on those 3 arms.

HokieRed
04-26-2010, 12:08 AM
Our only hope to be serious contenders in the next few years rest largely on the arms of Bailey, Cueto and Volquez (along with Leake and Chapman).

I can't think of any logical reason why we would give up on those 3 arms.

What is it in the record of any of those five pitchers that suggests this is a rotation that can win a pennant?

KronoRed
04-26-2010, 12:21 AM
What is it in the record of any of those five pitchers that suggests this is a rotation that can win a pennant?

Leake, Wood, Maloney and Chapman have even less in their record that says they will win a pennant, that is the story of young pitchers.

PuffyPig
04-26-2010, 08:29 AM
What is it in the record of any of those five pitchers that suggests this is a rotation that can win a pennant?

THey are all projected to be either top of the rotation to mid rotation starters, based on potential.

Getting rid of them to bring in pitchers with less potential isn't the answer.

We need to see what we got.

Dumping Bailey now after a few bad starts would be foolish, to say the least.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 10:13 AM
Let's not pretend like there's just a tiny sliver of data on Bailey. At this stage all we're doing is crossing our fingers and hoping he bucks the forecast because as it stands, every last shred of objective data suggest he's probably not going to be a #3 starter, much less TOR.

If the argument is, what else do the Reds have to lose in throwing him out there, then yes, I agree. They'll suck with or without him. But with every start, the odds get longer--he's now 24, definitely time for a prospect to become a contributor, especially when you consider how much of his pre-arb time the Reds have squandered.

Incidentally, I do think traderumor is dead-on when he says that there's only one thing more egomaniacal than a major league pitcher, and that's a MLB GM: if a GM thinks he can get Bailey turned around, then Walt needs to milk that intellectual soft spot for all it's worth.

lollipopcurve
04-26-2010, 10:21 AM
every last shred of objective data suggest he's probably not going to be a #3 starter, much less TOR

The data is trending in the correct direction. Add in age -- he's still 23 -- and health history (clean), and there's still a lot of story to be told. This team needs to err on the side of patience when it comes to young players with upside. No brainer.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 10:25 AM
The data is trending in the correct direction. Add in age -- he's still 23 -- and health history (clean), and there's still a lot of story to be told. This team needs to err on the side of patience when it comes to young players with upside. No brainer.

Patience matters, but only in context.

lollipopcurve
04-26-2010, 10:34 AM
Patience matters, but only in context.

And that context is?

A team that is building toward winning, not a team that can win now.

A player whose trajectory is positive, not plateaued, whose ceiling is high, if not sky high, whose health is good and whose contract is cheap.

Be patient with that player.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 10:36 AM
Be patient with that player.

Or trade him for someone who has greater potential but is further away from contributing.

Or trade him for someone who is already a contributor on offense.

I'd say the lesson to take away from Homer Bailey is: keep your options open. Kyle Lohse and Brett Tomko are nice back end material, but you don't keep 'em around on principle alone.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 10:49 AM
Put it this way: trade Bailey for a good hitter/defender in LF, bring up Lehr to take Bailey's slot for this, and you don't lose much in the short term, and in fact, you'll almost certainly gain in the long term.

lollipopcurve
04-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Put it this way: trade Bailey for a good hitter/defender in LF, bring up Lehr to take Bailey's slot for this, and you don't lose much in the short term, and in fact, you'll almost certainly gain in the long term.

There's theory, and then there's reality. What LF are you talking about?

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 11:04 AM
There's theory, and then there's reality. What LF are you talking about?

I don't know, but Walt got the Reds' best all-around performer in Rolen last season for essentially a song (that he was able to trumpet as real value).

The point is patience isn't really an answer. It's part of a method.

Caveat Emperor
04-26-2010, 02:08 PM
Patience matters, but only in context.

The team isn't going anywhere this season -- time is something they have a plethora of when you're talking about waiting to see what players come around.