PDA

View Full Version : Step back from the ledge Reds fans



dougdirt
04-24-2010, 06:27 PM
I know, I know. Today we looked absolutely TERRIBLE. So far this season we have been rather lackluster as a whole. But look at the stats of the players and ask yourself.... is that the guys true talent level. For just about every single player, the answer is an emphatic NO.

Now some guys aren't all that good, but even those guys are playing well under their true talent level. Things aren't going to continue being this bad. Is Johnny Cueto really a 6+ ERA guy? What about Harang, Arroyo and Bailey? No, they aren't. How good they are doesn't matter much, because we all know they aren't as bad as they have looked so far. Is every hitter on the Reds a sub .700 OPS bat outside of Rolen and Votto? No, they aren't.

I know its cliched to say it, but its early. Funny things happen when its early. This team is going to be better moving forward. How much better, well that is unknown, but the team isn't as bad as it has looked to this point in the season.

Ron Madden
04-24-2010, 06:32 PM
Who's out on a ledge? I predicted 79 wins for this club, not very surprised.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 06:34 PM
Who's out on a ledge? I predicted 79 wins for this club, not very surprised.

A lot of Reds fans are apparently.

GADawg
04-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Who's out on a ledge? I predicted 79 wins for this club, not very surprised.

79!?! maybe you should step out here with the rest of us!:D

mth123
04-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Who's out on a ledge? I predicted 79 wins for this club, not very surprised.

I think the team will settle in somewhere at 8 to 10 games below .500. That's probably better than what we've seen so far.

Ron Madden
04-24-2010, 06:43 PM
79!?! maybe you should step out here with the rest of us!:D

Nah, I'll stay put for now besides that ledge is too crowded with Fans that predicted this club would have 85 or more wins. ;)

membengal
04-24-2010, 06:50 PM
Yes, heaven forbid the Reds respond to this.

Predicted 77 wins.

But, yeah, get on me for being on a ledge.

Ron Madden
04-24-2010, 06:59 PM
I'm not getting on anybody, everyone has the right to their opinion.

membengal
04-24-2010, 07:02 PM
Wasn't generally talking in your direction, Ron.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 07:04 PM
Yes, heaven forbid the Reds respond to this.

Predicted 77 wins.

But, yeah, get on me for being on a ledge.

Not you. A lot of people. All over the place. Internet. Radio. Losing their minds as if its just impossible this team isn't the worst team ever assembled.

membengal
04-24-2010, 07:15 PM
Not you. A lot of people. All over the place. Internet. Radio. Losing their minds as if its just impossible this team isn't the worst team ever assembled.

Fair enough. I made an assumption after the other thread.

Doug, playing up to their baseball cards isn't good enough. At some point, they have to be better than the the backs of their cards. Particularly the young ones. The question is how to help them do that. But that's the discussion in the other thread.

traderumor
04-24-2010, 07:17 PM
Early results are magnified, just like everyone notices that that the Padres are 11-6. Suddenly they're a "surprise" team rather than a team that has won 11 of their last 17.

The pitching is just mystifying though. Completely befuddled and very disappointed. Even in the middle of the season, it is hard to imagine a stretch of 18 games where the ERA will be over 6.

dougdirt
04-24-2010, 07:25 PM
Fair enough. I made an assumption after the other thread.

Doug, playing up to their baseball cards isn't good enough. At some point, they have to be better than the the backs of their cards. Particularly the young ones. The question is how to help them do that. But that's the discussion in the other thread.

Sure, the young guys need to play better than their cards.... but when the vets do get to that point this team is going to be doing a lot better.

HeatherC1212
04-24-2010, 07:25 PM
Well said Doug. :thumbup:

And imagine being an Oriole fan so far (they're 2-15). They seem to have games like this one every single day with baserunning blunders, lazy play, and no offense at all. The kicker is that they're getting a ton of quality starts from their starters and they either can't score runs or the bullpen blows it. They're also missing their key leadoff guy (Brian Roberts) and have had a few other injuries take out some of their key guys. It could be a lot worse for us than it actually is so I'm not crawling out on any ledges right now. I hope this game today lights a fire under the Reds players and they start playing much better baseball. I fully expect to see a better team on the field tomorrow and I will be extremely upset if they play lazy, uninspired baseball at any other time this season. :rant:

klw
04-24-2010, 09:09 PM
Yeah but the Orioles fans are still saying "We're still better than in '88!"

Ghosts of 1990
04-24-2010, 10:32 PM
I know, I know. Today we looked absolutely TERRIBLE. So far this season we have been rather lackluster as a whole. But look at the stats of the players and ask yourself.... is that the guys true talent level. For just about every single player, the answer is an emphatic NO.

Now some guys aren't all that good, but even those guys are playing well under their true talent level. Things aren't going to continue being this bad. Is Johnny Cueto really a 6+ ERA guy? What about Harang, Arroyo and Bailey? No, they aren't. How good they are doesn't matter much, because we all know they aren't as bad as they have looked so far. Is every hitter on the Reds a sub .700 OPS bat outside of Rolen and Votto? No, they aren't.

I know its cliched to say it, but its early. Funny things happen when its early. This team is going to be better moving forward. How much better, well that is unknown, but the team isn't as bad as it has looked to this point in the season.


I give you credit Doug. You are a true fan. A knowledgable, and patient fan. I wish I could talk myself back from the ledge. I am just dumb-founded not so much at the records; but how we seem to have prospect after prospect that is can't miss come to the big leagues the same way St. Louis does and other guys around baseball and they work out as their supposed to and our guys just don't. It doesn't make sense and I can't figure it out.

So tomorrow we'll try again.... hopefully we start a win streak soon. I'm in a lot better mood around the house then.

RedsManRick
04-25-2010, 12:30 AM
Red Sox: 8-10
Dodgers: 8-9
Rangers: 7-10
Diamondbacks: 7-10
Braves: 8-9

All of these teams are supposed to be playoff contenders, if not division winners. We're within 1.5 games of each of them. We haven't even played have the teams in the league yet. It's early.

westofyou
04-25-2010, 12:32 AM
Since many have a football approach to baseball let's look at it this way, say the season is the football field, if the Reds started the season on their own goal line they'd only be at their own 10 yard line by now.

Feel better?

pedro
04-25-2010, 12:54 AM
Since many have a football approach to baseball let's look at it this way, say the season is the football field, if the Reds started the season on their own goal line they'd only be at their own 10 yard line by now.

Feel better?

Or to make another football analogy with 10% of the season gone it's like the the Reds are 0-1. Not time to flip out yet, even if it's fairly obvious that they're just not that good a team.

RedsManRick
04-25-2010, 01:02 AM
Par on the first hole. On the 2nd hole, we hit it into the woods, off a tree, and then laid up in to a bunker. Hopefully we can hole the wedge and finish with just a bogey.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2010, 01:29 AM
I know, I know. Today we looked absolutely TERRIBLE. So far this season we have been rather lackluster as a whole. But look at the stats of the players and ask yourself.... is that the guys true talent level. For just about every single player, the answer is an emphatic NO.

Now some guys aren't all that good, but even those guys are playing well under their true talent level. Things aren't going to continue being this bad. Is Johnny Cueto really a 6+ ERA guy? What about Harang, Arroyo and Bailey? No, they aren't. How good they are doesn't matter much, because we all know they aren't as bad as they have looked so far. Is every hitter on the Reds a sub .700 OPS bat outside of Rolen and Votto? No, they aren't.

I know its cliched to say it, but its early. Funny things happen when its early. This team is going to be better moving forward. How much better, well that is unknown, but the team isn't as bad as it has looked to this point in the season.

That's a very good post, I think that it is true what you are saying outright and implying.

I don't care what I have muddled around posting over the weeks etc, they are not this bad, no way. You have to be right, numbers and humans don't do that all at once, and so many, and stay that way, no.

Spring~Fields
04-25-2010, 01:34 AM
I'm not getting on anybody, everyone has the right to their opinion.

Oh gee thanks. :)

No thanks, I am sick of my opinions, I am looking for someone to take all of them for less than a bag of used balls. I need and want some new ones. Mine are old and worn out, like a bad pair of socks, washed too many times. :eek:

nate
04-25-2010, 09:13 AM
If the Reds season were a beer at a party, it'd only be 10% filled with cigarette butts!

:cool:

traderumor
04-25-2010, 09:38 AM
You could look at the flip side. What about the false hope given to the teams that we know, because its so early, like San Diego, that are probably playing their best baseball right now, as we play them, and that it is likely that the rest of the season, will be a steady downhill slide. Will their staff really be this good all year? I'd rather know that my team's best days are most likely yet to come.

RFS62
04-25-2010, 09:49 AM
Yep, I think we've lulled the rest of the league into a false sense of security.

That's the plan. Obviously. And I think it's working.

TheNext44
04-25-2010, 10:56 AM
The Reds had a really hot start last year and we all know how that turned out. The Yankees started off bad last year, their pitching staff was worse than the Reds staff has been thus year, and we all know how that turned out.

Great thing about baseball is that the season is so long a teams true talent level almost always finds itself by season's end. Barring major injuries, this team will be around .500 at season's end, maybe better if Jocketty can pull of a trade for another professional bat, or a prospect from AAA develops early.

_Sir_Charles_
04-25-2010, 11:28 AM
Skip: "You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!"

Larry: "Lollygaggers!"

Skip: "Lollygaggers."




If only "scaring them" would work. Something needs to set a fire under these guys. When you're scuffling as a team, the one thing you CAN'T have is a lack of effort. You need everything you can to bust out of a skid we're on right now. Not hustling...not allowed. Not having your head in the game...not allowed.

Pickoffs, making the last out at 3rd, tossing the ball into the stands after 2 outs? Not allowed.

Captain Hook
04-25-2010, 11:29 PM
If you didn't give up hope after being swept by the Pirates last weekend then a 3-3 home stand against LA and San Diego should do it.

8-11 after 21 games is actually encouraging considering that IMO this team won't play this bad over that period of time for the rest of the year.We all know what kind of individual numbers that many of our guys are putting up from our hitting to our pitching with defense and base running included it's not been a pretty picture.

I know it might seem a bit silly to say it but I actually think that the Reds 8-11 record speaks more to how good they can be rather than how bad they've been.Things will get better.

kaldaniels
04-25-2010, 11:38 PM
If you didn't give up hope after being swept by the Pirates last weekend then a 3-3 home stand against LA and San Diego should do it.

8-11 after 21 games is actually encouraging considering that IMO this team won't play this bad over that period of time for the rest of the year.We all know what kind of individual numbers that many of our guys are putting up from our hitting to our pitching with defense and base running included it's not been a pretty picture.

I know it might seem a bit silly to say it but I actually think that the Reds 8-11 record speaks more to how good they can be rather than how bad they've been.Things will get better.

The bolded part is the major hiccup at this point. If they go 1-2 in Pitt, the Reds are 9-10. If they go 2-1 in Pitt, we've got a winning record.

HokieRed
04-25-2010, 11:39 PM
The bolded part is the major hiccup at this point. If they go 1-2 in Pitt, the Reds are 9-10. If they go 2-1 in Pitt, we've got a winning record.


They didn't.

Captain Hook
04-26-2010, 12:11 AM
Sure they didn't but considering how often the number of games the Reds have won with late inning comebacks is pointed out it's at least worth noting that Pitt. won 2 of the 3 in their last at bat in walk off fashion.That series could've easily been 2 out of 3 for the Reds.

Your right though they didn't win those games and KD is also right.If the Reds sweep the Pirates just as the Brewers and Stros have this week we'd have a winning record.1 series this year is really the whole reason for this thread(witch is appropriate by the way).Just one more reason to not rush judgement on the 2010 Cincinnati Reds.

HokieRed
04-26-2010, 12:18 AM
Realistic assessment of the baseball team depends on screening out everything except what matters, and that is who won the games. The Pirates beat us 3 out of 3. If we're going to get better, it has to start by acknowledging that.

Captain Hook
04-26-2010, 12:31 AM
Given that there are only 4 games separating the best record and the worse record in the NL there should certainly be more things taken into account then wins and losses at this point when assessing any team.

GAC
04-26-2010, 06:22 AM
19 games played. And to be honest, I can't believe we're 8-11 and only 3.5 games back as bad as we've looked. This team is not as bad as they've started.

Be thankful they are in a mediocre division that is very winnable.

nate
04-26-2010, 11:05 AM
19 games played. And to be honest, I can't believe we're 8-11 and only 3.5 games back as bad as we've looked. This team is not as bad as they've started.

Be thankful they are in a mediocre division that is very winnable.

Or be disappointed that they are in a mediocre division that is very winnable and they haven't done better.

:cool:

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 11:08 AM
This division is winnable by only one team, and that team ain't the Reds.

Kc61
04-26-2010, 11:45 AM
This division is winnable by only one team, and that team ain't the Reds.

Right. And that team has four anchor players, two top hitters and two top starting pitchers. That's the difference.

The young kids, the role players, the slightly-past-their-peak vets, they are all comparable. All teams have them, the Reds are as good as other teams in these departments.

What the Reds lack are the major anchor players. The guys who are feared by the opposition. The guys who allow the others to play comfortable, complimentary roles.

The Cards have four anchor players, two hitters, two starting pitchers. The Reds, maybe, have one in Votto. Some might argue even Votto doesn't qualify as yet.

That's the difference IMO.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 11:53 AM
Right. And that team has four anchor players, two top hitters and two top starting pitchers. That's the difference.

The young kids, the role players, the slightly-past-their-peak vets, they are all comparable. All teams have them, the Reds are as good as other teams in these departments.

What the Reds lack are the major anchor players. The guys who are feared by the opposition. The guys who allow the others to play comfortable, complimentary roles.

The Cards have four anchor players, two hitters, two starting pitchers. The Reds, maybe, have one in Votto. Some might argue even Votto doesn't qualify as yet.

That's the difference IMO.


Precisely. Don't worry about the bottom 10% or even the middle 75%; worry about the total absence of top 15% talent.

I'd say the Reds have two anchor hitters. Zero anchor pitchers.

TRF
04-26-2010, 12:56 PM
Reds at the plate, last 7 days...


Batting Statistics
NAME GP AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
Johnny Cueto 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1.000 1.000 1.000 2.000
Ryan Hanigan 4 8 1 6 2 0 0 8 2 1 1 0 0 .750 .800 1.000 1.800
Scott Rolen 6 21 8 8 2 0 2 16 4 1 2 0 0 .381 .409 .762 1.171
Laynce Nix 3 2 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 .500 .667 .500 1.167
Homer Bailey 2 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 .500 .667 .500 1.167
Joey Votto 6 20 3 6 1 0 2 13 6 7 6 0 1 .300 .464 .650 1.114
Jay Bruce 6 20 7 6 2 1 1 13 4 3 5 0 0 .300 .391 .650 1.041
Aaron Harang 1 2 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 .500 .500 .500 1.000
Paul Janish 4 7 0 3 1 0 0 4 2 0 0 0 0 .429 .429 .571 1.000
R. Hernandez 4 13 2 5 0 0 0 5 2 2 2 0 0 .385 .467 .385 .851
B. Phillips 6 24 2 5 1 0 1 9 2 1 4 0 1 .208 .240 .375 .615
O. Cabrera 5 17 2 4 0 0 0 4 5 3 1 0 0 .235 .318 .235 .553
Drew Stubbs 6 21 3 3 0 0 0 3 1 2 6 1 1 .143 .250 .143 .393
Jonny Gomes 5 14 2 2 0 0 0 2 2 1 1 0 1 .143 .188 .143 .330
C. Dickerson 6 14 2 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 7 1 0 .143 .143 .143 .286

Hanigan, Rolen, Votto, Bruce, Hernandez. All hitting very well. Janish in limited PT hitting the ball. All the rest? stink on ice. But at least it is more than just Votto and Rolen. That's a good sign.

Here is the problem... SP the last 7 days...


Pitching Statistics
NAME GP GS W L Sv Hld IP H ER HR BB SO K/9 WHIP ERA
Homer Bailey 2 2 0 0 0 0 11.1 15 9 1 4 13 10.32 1.68 7.15
B. Arroyo 1 1 0 1 0 0 3.0 8 8 1 2 0 0.00 3.33 24.00
Aaron Harang 1 1 0 1 0 0 5.2 10 6 1 2 2 3.18 2.12 9.53
Johnny Cueto 1 1 0 1 0 0 6.0 7 5 2 1 5 7.50 1.33 7.50
Mike Leake 1 1 1 0 0 0 7.0 8 5 2 1 5 6.43 1.29 6.43

Only Bailey and Cueto have acceptable to excellent K/9 numbers, only Cueto and Leake have even close to acceptable WHIP's. Everything else blows. Like doug said, this probably won't continue, but it is absolutely why the Reds are sub .500 right now.

RedsManRick
04-26-2010, 01:11 PM
Some basic stats that I think summary things nicely. Ranks are NL. I'll try to provide these from time to time. Keep in mind, of course, that these are not park adjusted and so are not necessarily reflective of our skills (not that a 3 week sample would be anyways...), just the on-field results.



OFFENSE DEFENSE
R/G AVG OBP SLG OPS RA/G BB/9 K/9 HR/9 H/9 DER
Value 4.58 .242 .312 .393 .705 6.11 4.0 7.5 1.3 9.8 .672
Rank 9 12 15 12 12 15 12 6 13 T13 13

flyer85
04-26-2010, 01:13 PM
this team will likely improve but it is not anywhere near being a playoff contender. The sooner the FO figures that out the better.

BTW, the DER should be extremely troubling to anyone associated with the team.

HokieRed
04-26-2010, 01:15 PM
Note, on the Cardinals comparison, that one place we thought to be a comparative strength for us--the latter part of the rotation--is quickly turning into a decided place of comparative strength for the Cardinals. Check out what Brad Penny's doing. He'd easily be our "ace."

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 01:19 PM
Check out what Brad Penny's doing. He'd easily be our "ace."

Yeah. I'd say the Reds, if anything, have placed entirely too much faith in young arms with serious warts on their record. Acquiring Brad Penny-types should be nearly automatic for a struggling squad like the Reds; instead, we let the frontrunners grab him. I get "schooled" all the time about being "silly" and "unrealistic" about grabbing the brass ring with guys like Halladay, but what's the excuse for not getting an inexpensive fireballer with some injury warts like Penny?

lollipopcurve
04-26-2010, 02:40 PM
what's the excuse for not getting an inexpensive fireballer with some injury warts like Penny?

Cards gave him 7.5 million.

Falls City Beer
04-26-2010, 02:50 PM
Cards gave him 7.5 million.

Hernandez 3.5 million

+

Gomes 800,000

+

Cabrera 3 million

=

There's your answer.

kaldaniels
04-26-2010, 06:07 PM
Realistic assessment of the baseball team depends on screening out everything except what matters, and that is who won the games. The Pirates beat us 3 out of 3. If we're going to get better, it has to start by acknowledging that.

So you would assess an 0-1 team by saying they are infinitely bad?

No, its just that some on here believe this season has already gone down in flames. Take away the 3 game meltdown in Pitt, and the Reds have treaded water so far. I'm not pleased with the season thus far, but have the perpsective as noted above...if not for the Pitt debacle, most of us on here would be cautiously accepting of the season to this point. When the question in many minds is "exactly how bad are the Reds" you've got to take a different look than just the W-L record in dealing with less than 20 games. Over 162 games, the W-L record speaks for itself...after 20...no so much.

Again, not pleased with the season...but just about everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.

TheNext44
04-26-2010, 06:13 PM
After his first three games with St. Louis in 2007, Kip Wells had a 2.25 ERA and a 8.1 K/9 rate.

Just saying.

klw
08-19-2010, 10:06 PM
Bump to give some kudos to doug

RBA
08-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Especially if you have full run of house in the Penthouse suite, the ledge is the last place you want to be.

corkedbat
08-19-2010, 11:43 PM
Especially if you have full run of house in the Penthouse suite, the ledge is the last place you want to be.

What if your ledge overlooks the playoff train? :D

Brutus
08-19-2010, 11:46 PM
*HUMS the song Jumper

"Wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend. Cut ties with all the lies that you've been living in."

11larkin11
08-20-2010, 12:50 AM
*HUMS the song Jumper

"Wish you would step back from that ledge, my friend. Cut ties with all the lies that you've been living in."

If you didn't do this ^ when you read this thread title, you should be ashamed of yourself.

BTW, Doug, how dare you be rational?!?!

HOW CAN WE BE CALM IN A TIME LIKE THIS??? WE'RE LOSING IN APRIL!!!

johngalt
08-20-2010, 01:18 AM
This division is winnable by only one team, and that team ain't the Reds.

How funny does this sound 4 months later?

The Operator
08-20-2010, 02:21 AM
How funny does this sound 4 months later?

If The Reds do make the playoffs this year, that particular poster could have an entire book of his own quotes from this season thrown back at him. But that's all I'll comment about that matter since a little birdie tells me that person can't come to their own defense any more.

Caveat Emperor
08-20-2010, 11:20 AM
How funny does this sound 4 months later?

In his defense, he was only off by 1. ;)

cumberlandreds
08-20-2010, 11:25 AM
Yep, I think we've lulled the rest of the league into a false sense of security.

That's the plan. Obviously. And I think it's working.

Looks like RFS had it right all along. :D

Brutus
08-20-2010, 11:46 AM
What good is it for someone to be terribly wrong if you can't remind them after the fact they were terribly wrong. I feel the system has cheated us.
:D

PuffyPig
08-20-2010, 11:53 AM
Yeah. I'd say the Reds, if anything, have placed entirely too much faith in young arms with serious warts on their record. Acquiring Brad Penny-types should be nearly automatic for a struggling squad like the Reds; instead, we let the frontrunners grab him. I get "schooled" all the time about being "silly" and "unrealistic" about grabbing the brass ring with guys like Halladay, but what's the excuse for not getting an inexpensive fireballer with some injury warts like Penny?

I'd say our "young arms" have gotten us pretty far.

Penny is long gone, and those young arms have gotten us near best pitching since the all star break.

Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Leake, Wood, Masset, Ondrusek, Smith, Bray, form 75% of our pitching staff.

membengal
08-20-2010, 12:55 PM
Yes, heaven forbid the Reds respond to this.

Predicted 77 wins.

But, yeah, get on me for being on a ledge.

Whhheeeeeeeee.

Bad post, me, bad.

dougdirt
08-20-2010, 02:59 PM
I am the smartest man alive!
http://redsminorleagues.com/images/smartest.jpg

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2010, 03:16 PM
I am the smartest man alive!
http://redsminorleagues.com/images/smartest.jpg

Bwhahahahahha!!!

Homer Bailey
10-03-2010, 08:53 PM
And boom goes the dynamite.

91. Wins.

Still feels weird to type.

Homer Bailey
04-21-2011, 01:48 AM
Bump.... I'm trying guys....

BuckeyeRedleg
04-21-2011, 02:03 AM
Last year has nothing to do with this year. Sorry.:)

This could have been posted a dozen times during the lost decade.

So far this team doesn't look like the team that will win 86 or 87 ( what I predicted). We'll see how good they can play with saviors Cueto and Bailey, but who is to say that someone else won't go down (injury) or fall back to earth (Gomes) when they come back?

If all goes well, they win 86 or 87. Great. Hope I'm wrong and they win more, but I doubt it. My hope and faith will not make them win more.

reds44
04-21-2011, 02:37 AM
The Reds are 9-9. It's April.

If you're on the ledge, you might as well jump off and save everyone's time.

Captain Hook
04-21-2011, 02:55 AM
The way things have gone so far this year reminds me of a game where your team jumps out to a nice lead in the first inning by scoring five runs and your all happy but by the bottom of the inning things are all tied up.At that point you just say oh well, it's going to be one of those games because at that point there's really nothing loss other then a early lead.Right now this season is barley out of the first inning.No ledge for me but this does kinda suck.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-21-2011, 03:18 AM
Who's on the ledge? This thread was started in April 2010.

Save everyone the time of what?

jojo
04-21-2011, 07:37 AM
Here's a gem from last season...


Yeah. I'd say the Reds, if anything, have placed entirely too much faith in young arms with serious warts on their record. Acquiring Brad Penny-types should be nearly automatic for a struggling squad like the Reds; instead, we let the frontrunners grab him. I get "schooled" all the time about being "silly" and "unrealistic" about grabbing the brass ring with guys like Halladay, but what's the excuse for not getting an inexpensive fireballer with some injury warts like Penny?


Cards gave him 7.5 million.

As a side note, after the first comment criticizing the Reds weak staff and FO for failing to acquire an obvious upgrade in Penny, Brad P started another 5 games posting an ERA of 5.66 over 27 innings before going down with a season-ending injury.

Prognosticating doom and gloom for any pitcher who has not earned a big payday during free agency may sound insightful but as analysis goes, it's more cheaply bought nobility than it's a legitimate analysis of a pitcher's true talent.

traderumor
04-21-2011, 08:09 AM
What this stretch proves is that if you are slumping deeply, it doesn't matter who the opponent is in MLB. One good sign, at least we got a little bit of pitching last night.

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-21-2011, 10:36 AM
The Reds are 9-9. It's April.

If you're on the ledge, you might as well jump off and save everyone's time.

It's not the 9-9 that's bothersome. What's particularly concerning is who that 9-9 came against. Let's face it, other than the three to open the season against Milwaukee, the other 15 games have come against the short bus of the National League.

What does a 4-9 record against the Astros, Diamondbacks, Padres and Pirates translate to against the likes of the Cardinals, Giants, Phillies, Rockies, Braves, Yankees, Rays, Marlins and Brewers?

The Reds could not have possibly had a more favorable early schedule with which to get out of the blocks strong and build a little early lead. And they could not have disappointed more with that favorable early schedule.

jojo
04-21-2011, 10:43 AM
It's not the 9-9 that's bothersome. What's particularly concerning is who that 9-9 came against. Let's face it, other than the three to open the season against Milwaukee, the other 15 games have come against the short bus of the National League.

What does a 4-9 record against the Astros, Diamondbacks, Padres and Pirates translate to against the likes of the Cardinals, Giants, Phillies, Rockies, Braves, Yankees, Rays, Marlins and Brewers?

To me the real issue is the lost opportunity to build a cushion. For instance, I thought the Reds were roughly a .531 team coming into the season.

I still do but assuming they act that way the rest of the year, that means they'd finish with about 85 wins. Suddenly the division title looks like a much harder dog fight without much room for injury/error.

reds1869
04-21-2011, 10:47 AM
What does a 4-9 record against the Astros, Diamondbacks, Padres and Pirates translate to against the likes of the Cardinals, Giants, Phillies, Rockies, Braves, Yankees, Rays, Marlins and Brewers?

I'm not sure it translates to anything to be honest. This team as they are playing right now would lose to any MLB squad. This team as they were playing the first week of the season would beat any MLB squad. I think the real Reds sit somewhere in the middle of those two streaks.

bucksfan2
04-21-2011, 10:47 AM
To me the real issue is the lost opportunity to build a cushion. For instance, I thought the Reds were roughly a .531 team coming into the season.

I still do but assuming they act that way the rest of the year, that means they'd finish with about 85 wins. Suddenly the division title looks like a much harder dog fight without much room for injury/error.

I would say that they are dealing with the injury/error thing right now. Phillips had missed a substantial chunk of this home stand and the Reds are missing Cueto and Bailey.

Streaks like this happen to every team over the course of a season. Heck last year the Reds got swept by one of the worst teams in baseball in Seattle and also had a poor home stand series against the Pirates.

OldXOhio
04-21-2011, 10:50 AM
It's not the 9-9 that's bothersome. What's particularly concerning is who that 9-9 came against. Let's face it, other than the three to open the season against Milwaukee, the other 15 games have come against the short bus of the National League.

What does a 4-9 record against the Astros, Diamondbacks, Padres and Pirates translate to against the likes of the Cardinals, Giants, Phillies, Rockies, Braves, Yankees, Rays, Marlins and Brewers?

The Reds could not have possibly had a more favorable early schedule with which to get out of the blocks strong and build a little early lead. And they could not have disappointed more with that favorable early schedule.

Too much thinking for my taste. Some of the "short bus" teams as you called them have actually played pretty well in the early going. To say they're worse than the Cardinals, Phillies or Braves this early into the season is debateable. And who's to say that when we do play the upper tier teams that they won't be struggling like the Reds are now.

It's April, we're at .500, nothing is lost. If we were blowing through teams right now some would be worried this team is peaking too early.

jojo
04-21-2011, 10:59 AM
I would say that they are dealing with the injury/error thing right now. Phillips had missed a substantial chunk of this home stand and the Reds are missing Cueto and Bailey.

Streaks like this happen to every team over the course of a season. Heck last year the Reds got swept by one of the worst teams in baseball in Seattle and also had a poor home stand series against the Pirates.

Of course streaks happen but the fact that this one is happening is a missed opportunity. Hopefully it won't bite the Reds in September...

Blitz Dorsey
04-21-2011, 11:24 AM
Maybe I should be, but I'm not worried. The Reds are 9-9. The only reason everyone is so upset is because of the fast start and because of the weak competition the Reds have lost to. But it's extremely early and I still think we've got a very good club. I knew losing Arthur Rhodes was going to hurt more than some fans wanted to admit, but this team has a lot more problems than that right now. But I think they'll be fine in the end. And it's not like they have to finish with the best record in MLB to make the playoffs ... they just have to finish higher than everyone else in the NL Central. Right now, I would still take the Reds as the best team in the division, with Milwaukee a close second (in other words, exactly what I thought entering the season).

757690
04-21-2011, 11:37 AM
The Reds are 9-9 and in a big funk right now, but are still in first. The Cards and Brewers are playing really well, but still stuck at .500.

At worse, this just means that the Reds wil have to duke it out for the division title, and based on roster and organizational makeup, I have to like their chances. if they pull things together and go on another nice winning streak, they could pull away pretty quickly.

Blitz Dorsey
04-21-2011, 12:04 PM
The Reds are 9-9 and in a big funk right now, but are still in first. The Cards and Brewers are playing really well, but still stuck at .500.

At worse, this just means that the Reds wil have to duke it out for the division title, and based on roster and organizational makeup, I have to like their chances. if they pull things together and go on another nice winning streak, they could pull away pretty quickly.

Exactly. I'll sure take this over the crap we had to put up with from 2001-09. This team has a chance to win this year and is coming off a divisional title the previous year. It's a good time to be a Reds fan again. Let's not lose focus of the big picture amid this horrific stretch of baseball. It won't last long.

MikeThierry
04-22-2011, 12:23 AM
Blitz, the Reds are a good team but as you alluded to, I believe the Rhodes non-signing will hurt them. I just don't know how they are going to produce the quality innings from the bullpen that Rhodes had for you guys and I don't know if relying on young, frankly, unproven setup guys is the way to go. I think in any bullpen in the majors, teams need a mixture of young guys and old wily veterans to be successful.

I'm not also sold on the Reds rotation this year, even with Cueto in the mix. In my opinion, there are some early alarming trends. There is plenty of season left so things could improve. I just don't know if the Reds can consistently win if nobody in the rotation can even get their ERA to a sub 4. The one thing that killed me looking up at you guys in the standings last season was the fact that even if the Cards won, you guys won as well and a loss from my team was a devastating loss in the standings column. Sort of like 1 step forward 2 step back sort of thing from the Cardinals perspective. I think the inconsistency of of the starting rotation will keep the rest of the teams in this division in it until the very end. In fact, the NL Central has a strong possibility of being decided on the last day of the season.


The Reds are 9-9 and in a big funk right now, but are still in first. The Cards and Brewers are playing really well, but still stuck at .500.

The only reason why it looks like the Cards are stuck at .500 is because of how bad the first week was. Since then, the Cards have frankly been world beaters both pitching and on an offensive basis. I don't think we will keep it up but certainly the Cards have been playing lights out baseball the past week and a half. Plus if they can stabilize the closer situation, the team could certainly be dangerous.

My 2 cents.

GAC
04-22-2011, 05:39 AM
Since many have a football approach to baseball let's look at it this way, say the season is the football field, if the Reds started the season on their own goal line they'd only be at their own 10 yard line by now.

Feel better?

Agree. Last year, after 18 games, the Reds were 7-11. So we are improving. :p

Cedric
04-23-2011, 12:54 AM
Blitz, the Reds are a good team but as you alluded to, I believe the Rhodes non-signing will hurt them. I just don't know how they are going to produce the quality innings from the bullpen that Rhodes had for you guys and I don't know if relying on young, frankly, unproven setup guys is the way to go. I think in any bullpen in the majors, teams need a mixture of young guys and old wily veterans to be successful.

I'm not also sold on the Reds rotation this year, even with Cueto in the mix. In my opinion, there are some early alarming trends. There is plenty of season left so things could improve. I just don't know if the Reds can consistently win if nobody in the rotation can even get their ERA to a sub 4. The one thing that killed me looking up at you guys in the standings last season was the fact that even if the Cards won, you guys won as well and a loss from my team was a devastating loss in the standings column. Sort of like 1 step forward 2 step back sort of thing from the Cardinals perspective. I think the inconsistency of of the starting rotation will keep the rest of the teams in this division in it until the very end. In fact, the NL Central has a strong possibility of being decided on the last day of the season.



The only reason why it looks like the Cards are stuck at .500 is because of how bad the first week was. Since then, the Cards have frankly been world beaters both pitching and on an offensive basis. I don't think we will keep it up but certainly the Cards have been playing lights out baseball the past week and a half. Plus if they can stabilize the closer situation, the team could certainly be dangerous.

My 2 cents.

Your 2 cents is incredibly biased and funny, IMO. I know that Ryan Theriot stinks as a baseball player. I also know that Matt Holliday and Colby Rasmus won't hit .400 all year. I know that Kyle Lohse is terrible.

And I'm confused by your logic. Does the first week not matter for St. Louis but the Reds struggling second week does matter? Explain what the heck you are talking about.

Thanks!

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2011, 02:55 AM
This Reds team is tough to watch right now. Every loss is basicially the same story: Missed oppourtinity after missed opportunity. How many chances did the Reds have to put runs on the board tonight and failed miserably? Between terrible baserunning and bad atbats, they're leaving so many runners on base. Look at all the chances they had:

1st inning - runner on 3rd, one out - Votto K's and Gomes flies out

6th inning - 1st and 3rd, no outs - No runs

7 inning - bases loaded, 1 out - only 1 run

8th inning - 1st and 2nd, 1 out - no runs

9th inning - lead off single - no runs.

They lost the last game in San Diego because of missed opportunities. The final game in Arizona too. That game was mostly on the pitching but the offense had plenty of chances to add on and couldn't. Same story Sunday against the Pirates. The Reds just aren't getting the key hits right now. It also doesn't help that the pitching staff is allowing runs in the first inning just about every game.

This team is just so frustrating to watch. It's still very early but I'm concerned.

Ghosts of 1990
04-23-2011, 02:59 AM
After 20 games, I don't like the starting pitching, Jay Bruce is just an ok player, nothing special; Rolen has taken a step back and might be done altogether.

Votto is Votto maybe even will top last year. Stubbs has taken the next step and Phillips looks like he's going to have a huge year.

Not enough in the Central. Milwaukee will roll this team over the long haul if things stay as they are. Bruce is really hurting them on a nightly basis.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 03:02 AM
Your 2 cents is incredibly biased and funny, IMO. I know that Ryan Theriot stinks as a baseball player. I also know that Matt Holliday and Colby Rasmus won't hit .400 all year. I know that Kyle Lohse is terrible.

And I'm confused by your logic. Does the first week not matter for St. Louis but the Reds struggling second week does matter? Explain what the heck you are talking about.

Thanks!


I know Colby and Holliday won't hit .400 all year. That would be silly to think so. However Holliday is a very consistent .300 hitter and Rasmus, I believe, will have a breakout year. Rasmus, even towards the end of last season, started to really hit left handed pitching well. That has been his Achilles Heel for his first year and half. Now that he is hitting left handed pitching well, I think he will ascend as a player. As far as Lohse goes, this is the first year that he has been fully healthy. He had a rare injury that didn't allow his muscles in his arm to expand and he didn't have any feel on his pitches. Now there is definite life on his pitches. His change up is breaking and its not being left over the plate. He just looks like the pitcher we had in 2008.

As I said in my previous statement, it is early so things could change for you guys. It is just alarming, in my opinion, that you don't have a starting pitcher with an ERA under 4. I know Cueto could come back and be great but where does that leave everyone else? Its a very young staff and I just feel there is going to be a lack of consistency that you guys had last year.

I also never said the first week doesn't matter for the Cardinals, stop putting words in my mouth. I said the Cardinals have been world beaters ever since, which would imply they are playing over their head. That said, with Holliday in the lineup, I expect a more consistent offense than we had in our first week (esp. with Pujols being Pujols now). Does this same thing apply with Cueto being added to the Reds? Maybe. I just don't think adding Cueto to the Reds rotation is as dramatic as adding Holliday to a lineup. Holliday is a premier offensive threat where as Cueto is, to be frank with you, talented but inconsistent.

Sorry if you don't want me to drink the koolaid but from an outside observer, there just seems to be something missing with the Reds. Knowing Walts history, I believe you guys will make a move of some kind in the middle of the season so maybe all of this will be here say a couple of months from now.

reds44
04-23-2011, 03:42 AM
After 20 games, I don't like the starting pitching, Jay Bruce is just an ok player, nothing special; Rolen has taken a step back and might be done altogether.

Votto is Votto maybe even will top last year. Stubbs has taken the next step and Phillips looks like he's going to have a huge year.

Not enough in the Central. Milwaukee will roll this team over the long haul if things stay as they are. Bruce is really hurting them on a nightly basis.
In a stunning turn of events, you're overreacting.

After 20 games last year Stubbs was hitting .150, Phillips .208, Votto .283, Rolen .263, Bruce .235, Gomes .281, Hanigan .450.

Masset had an ERA of 11.

Phhhl
04-23-2011, 04:50 AM
At some point the Reds have to realize they have equitable if not more talent at every single position on the field, and more talent on the pitching staff than the St. Louis Cardinals. It seems to be apparent to everyone but the stars of this show. If we continue to blow ballgames to these schleprocks like tonight, we deserve to lose. The 2011 St. Louis Cardinals are a pedestrian, ill-concieved collection of players with no particular identity. To finish behind them in the standings would be a colossal setback for a team as talented as the Reds.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 05:19 AM
At some point the Reds have to realize they have equitable if not more talent at every single position on the field, and more talent on the pitching staff than the St. Louis Cardinals. It seems to be apparent to everyone but the stars of this show. If we continue to blow ballgames to these schleprocks like tonight, we deserve to lose. The 2011 St. Louis Cardinals are a pedestrian, ill-concieved collection of players with no particular identity. To finish behind them in the standings would be a colossal setback for a team as talented as the Reds.

Look, the Reds are good, don't get me wrong but to say that there is equitable if not more talent at every single position and talent on the pitching staff is a bit of a reach. Is there anyone in the outfield on the Reds that you would take over Holliday and Rasmus or even a David Freese at 3rd at this point? Anyone on the current pitching staff that you would take over Carpenter or Garcia, at this point in time? You have some great players and I would love some of them on the Cards (even Phillips would look awesome in a Cards uniform). However, you go a bit too far in your statement.

reds44
04-23-2011, 05:28 AM
Look, the Reds are good, don't get me wrong but to say that there is equitable if not more talent at every single position and talent on the pitching staff is a bit of a reach. Is there anyone in the outfield on the Reds that you would take over Holliday and Rasmus or even a David Freese at 3rd at this point? Anyone on the current pitching staff that you would take over Carpenter or Garcia, at this point in time? You have some great players and I would love some of them on the Cards (even Phillips would look awesome in a Cards uniform). However, you go a bit too far in your statement.
Reds offense is better, Reds pitching staff is better, Reds defense is better, Reds bullpen is better.

Edit: the only one you could semi debate is the pitching staff, but the Reds 3-5 in the rotation will give the Reds an edge just like last year before it's all said and done.

Offense, bullpen, and defense the Reds are multiple steps ahead of the Cardinals.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 05:33 AM
Are you being sarcastic? In what world is the Reds starting rotation better than the Cards starting rotation, at this point in time? I know this is the Red Zone so I expect support for the team. However that doesn't mean there can't be objective analysis.

I will give the Reds an edge on defense and bullpen (mainly because the closer role is defined on the Reds). Offense and pitching rotation can certainly be debated at this point.

reds44
04-23-2011, 05:37 AM
Are you being sarcastic? In what world is the Reds starting rotation better than the Cards starting rotation, at this point in time? I know this is the Red Zone so I expect support for the team. However that doesn't mean there can't be objective analysis.
I don't care about April 23rd. It's the same thing as last year, except for the fact you've replaced Wainwright with McClellan (and while I actually think McClellan will be decent he's no Wainwright).

The Reds rotation was better than the Cardinals last season because the Cardinals 4 and 5 were awful. It will be no different this year, unless you're going to try to sell me on Kyle Loshe and Jake Westbrook.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 05:43 AM
The Cardinals starting rotation, last year, was like second in ERA only to Oakland last season, even with bad 4th and 5th starters. I don't know how you can say the Reds starting rotation was better last year.

As I stated above, Lohse is coming back from an injury where his muscle couldn't expand, hence he had no touch on his pitches. He is fully recovered and there is life back in his pitches. I project him to have a 2008 type year.

I'll give you the Westbrooke argument though he has like a career April ERA of over 6 and is always a slow starter.

reds44
04-23-2011, 05:51 AM
The Cardinals starting rotation, last year, was like second in ERA only to Oakland last season, even with bad 4th and 5th starters. I don't know how you can say the Reds starting rotation was better last year.

As I stated above, Lohse is coming back from an injury where his muscle couldn't expand, hence he had no touch on his pitches. He is fully recovered and there is life back in his pitches. I project him to have a 2008 type year.

I'll give you the Westbrooke argument though he has like a career April ERA of over 6 and is always a slow starter.
So you're going to project a 32 year old pitcher who is coming off back to back years of 4.74 and 6.55 ERA who has had an ERA below 4.18, count em, once in his career (his career era is nearly 5) to duplicate his career year of 2008?

Yeah. Good luck with that one.

Look, right now the Cardinals have three SP with an ERA at 2 or below and an entire OF OPSing over 1.000. Meanwhile, the Reds have a starting rotation of a guy who has mono, another guy who spots the other team 4 runs every time out, and one more who is daylighting as Joe Pesci in home alone between starts, and I didn't even mention Travis Wood and his ERA of nearly 6 or Sam Lecure, who at the end of the day is Sam Lecure.

Volquez will pitch a lot better.
Wood will be pitch a lot better.
Leake will pitch a bit better and stop stealing stuff.
Arroyo will probably pitch about the same.

Not to mention the fact the team's best pitcher (Cueto) and another one who will either bump Leake or Wood (or even...GASP Volquez) if they don't start pitching better in Bailey.

Oh yeah and did I mention Jay Bruce and Scott Rolen are both currently OPSing below .700?

Yes, Carpenter will pitch better and Pujols will hit better, but besides those two that team has a lot of regressing to the mean coming.

And before you mention it, Chapman and Bray won't finish the year without giving up a run (although Chapman could be close lol) and Ondrusek won't finish the year with an ERA under 1, but Masset also won't finish the year with an ERA of 8.

And the Cardinals inability to get wins out of the back end of their rotation had a lot to do with them missing the playoffs last year. And the rotation got worse, not better in the offseason.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2011, 09:37 AM
So you're going to project a 32 year old pitcher who is coming off back to back years of 4.74 and 6.55 ERA who has had an ERA below 4.18, count em, once in his career (his career era is nearly 5) to duplicate his career year of 2008?

Last year was bad because Lohse was coming off of a freak injury. You give Volquez a pass because he is coming off of TJ surgery, I think Lohse deserves somce sort of pass for last year as well. 2009 was a bad year for Lohse though. I guess in comparrison, his 2009 year was similar to an average Homer Bailey season. The difference is that Lohse has proven to be better than that and Bailey hasn't. Trust me... I am not a big supporter of Westbrook. I liked what he did last year for the Cards, but he has looked horrible this year. I think he will come out of it and start pitching better, but not a lot better. Regardless, I do think that Lohse and Westbrook will have a combined better year than Leake (or Volquez if Leake doesn't stay in the rotation) and Bailey. No question about it, by the end of the season the Cardinals Starting Pitchers will have a lower ERA than the Reds starting pitchers. The Reds may have a better bullpen, but the Cardinals Starting Pitching is still their strength.

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-23-2011, 10:28 AM
Look, the Reds are good, don't get me wrong but to say that there is equitable if not more talent at every single position and talent on the pitching staff is a bit of a reach. Is there anyone in the outfield on the Reds that you would take over Holliday and Rasmus or even a David Freese at 3rd at this point? Anyone on the current pitching staff that you would take over Carpenter or Garcia, at this point in time? You have some great players and I would love some of them on the Cards (even Phillips would look awesome in a Cards uniform). However, you go a bit too far in your statement.

Why do we have to read this stuff in a Reds forum?

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2011, 10:33 AM
Why do we have to read this stuff in a Reds forum?

I enjoy reading their perspective. If you don't just ignore them. It's as easy as that...

westofyou
04-23-2011, 10:38 AM
Look, the Reds are good, don't get me wrong but to say that there is equitable if not more talent at every single position and talent on the pitching staff is a bit of a reach. Is there anyone in the outfield on the Reds that you would take over Holliday and Rasmus or even a David Freese at 3rd at this point? Anyone on the current pitching staff that you would take over Carpenter or Garcia, at this point in time? You have some great players and I would love some of them on the Cards (even Phillips would look awesome in a Cards uniform). However, you go a bit too far in your statement.

David Freese??

333 Ab's at age 28 and he somehow gets placed in your list?

Has a BABIP over .400 this year and was again on the DL and yet we as Reds fans should admit that we would like him over anyone we could think of??

Oh the humanity, talk about rose colored glasses.

Reds/Flyers Fan
04-23-2011, 10:47 AM
I enjoy reading their perspective. If you don't just ignore them. It's as easy as that...

It's no fun to see a Reds fan taken to task by a cards fan because the Reds fan dares to think the Reds are better - on Redszone no less. There are 800 sites to go to for that. This shouldn't be one of them. The Cards fan feels emboldened by a week's worth of results so he comes here to beat his chest and criticize an excited Reds fan? Lame.

757690
04-23-2011, 11:07 AM
It's kinda silly to talk about the Reds rotation this season when the #2 and #3 starters haven't pitched a single inning yet. Especially when they are the two starters who have been projected to have break out seasons.

Cedric
04-23-2011, 11:13 AM
I really really hope that Cardinals fans think David Freeze, Kyle Lohse, Ryan Theriot, and ancient Lance Berkman are this good.

I guess they don't realize that baseball is a long season of ups and downs.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2011, 01:16 PM
It's no fun to see a Reds fan taken to task by a cards fan because the Reds fan dares to think the Reds are better - on Redszone no less. There are 800 sites to go to for that. This shouldn't be one of them. The Cards fan feels emboldened by a week's worth of results so he comes here to beat his chest and criticize an excited Reds fan? Lame.

:thumbup:

kbrake
04-23-2011, 02:04 PM
I really really hope that Cardinals fans think David Freeze, Kyle Lohse, Ryan Theriot, and ancient Lance Berkman are this good.

I guess they don't realize that baseball is a long season of ups and downs.

Going to be a lot more fun when reality sets in this way though.

reds44
04-23-2011, 02:10 PM
Last year was bad because Lohse was coming off of a freak injury. You give Volquez a pass because he is coming off of TJ surgery, I think Lohse deserves somce sort of pass for last year as well. 2009 was a bad year for Lohse though. I guess in comparrison, his 2009 year was similar to an average Homer Bailey season. The difference is that Lohse has proven to be better than that and Bailey hasn't. Trust me... I am not a big supporter of Westbrook. I liked what he did last year for the Cards, but he has looked horrible this year. I think he will come out of it and start pitching better, but not a lot better. Regardless, I do think that Lohse and Westbrook will have a combined better year than Leake (or Volquez if Leake doesn't stay in the rotation) and Bailey. No question about it, by the end of the season the Cardinals Starting Pitchers will have a lower ERA than the Reds starting pitchers. The Reds may have a better bullpen, but the Cardinals Starting Pitching is still their strength.
Give him a pass for as many years as you want, but "projecting" somebody with a career ERA of 4.73 and a 91-99 career record to duplicate a 15-6, 3.78 ERA of three years ago is an amazing reach.

CTA513
04-23-2011, 02:21 PM
It's no fun to see a Reds fan taken to task by a cards fan because the Reds fan dares to think the Reds are better - on Redszone no less. There are 800 sites to go to for that. This shouldn't be one of them. The Cards fan feels emboldened by a week's worth of results so he comes here to beat his chest and criticize an excited Reds fan? Lame.

Sounds like the same thing Reds fans have been doing to the Cardinals fans on here except now Reds fans don't want them on here because they don't agree that the Reds are the greatest team ever.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 02:33 PM
Look, sorry to bring a different perspective in here. I guess I could go along with everyone and say that the Reds are the best team in baseball right now. I just think some of the things that are looked at as strengths by some of the Reds fans are a bit over hyped. Yeah I know that your best pitcher isn't back yet but I'm still not sold on Cueto. He has been too inconsistent thus far in his career for me to have full confidence in him. The good thing is that he is only 24 or 25 so there is still tons of upside. I guess what I'm trying to say is that will adding Cueto be enough to stable a shaky starting rotation? I have my doubts but I could be wrong.

As far as David Freese goes, I'll absolutely take David Freese right now over an aging Scott Rolen.

My main response earlier was to someone who said that at every position, the Reds were equitable or better than the Cardinals. That just seems like a silly statement if you analyze all the players from both teams. I guess from now on, if you want me to, I won't respond to a silly statement like that. However, I thought that is what the point of these boards were? To debate topics in baseball.

By the way, I'm not sold on Theriot and Berkman right now, but I'll take their production thus far. Those are huge questionmarks and I'm not settled on them at this point. The wheels could fall of the Cardinals wagon if these two fail and this whole debate we are having could be mute in a couple of months.

kbrake
04-23-2011, 02:43 PM
Look, sorry to bring a different perspective in here. I guess I could go along with everyone and say that the Reds are the best team in baseball right now. I just think some of the things that are looked at as strengths by some of the Reds fans are a bit over hyped. Yeah I know that your best pitcher isn't back yet but I'm still not sold on Cueto. He has been too inconsistent thus far in his career for me to have full confidence in him. The good thing is that he is only 24 or 25 so there is still tons of upside. I guess what I'm trying to say is that will adding Cueto be enough to stable a shaky starting rotation? I have my doubts but I could be wrong.

As far as David Freese goes, I'll absolutely take David Freese right now over an aging Scott Rolen.

My main response earlier was to someone who said that at every position, the Reds were equitable or better than the Cardinals. That just seems like a silly statement if you analyze all the players from both teams. I guess from now on, if you want me to, I won't respond to a silly statement like that. However, I thought that is what the point of these boards were? To debate topics in baseball.

By the way, I'm not sold on Theriot and Berkman right now, but I'll take their production thus far. Those are huge questionmarks and I'm not settled on them at this point. The wheels could fall of the Cardinals wagon if these two fail and this whole debate we are having could be mute in a couple of months.

I'm more than fine with you offering your perspective I enjoy it even if I don't agree with it. People who don't can ignore it. Keep it coming. Just don't disappear in August when the Cards a giant mess :D

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2011, 02:51 PM
I'm more than fine with you offering your perspective I enjoy it even if I don't agree with it. People who don't can ignore it. Keep it coming. Just don't disappear in August when the Cards a giant mess :D

Mike and I were both here last September. :)

I'm not expecting a repeat this year, but I didn't expect it this time last year either. lol Anything can happen during a long season.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2011, 03:43 PM
It's no fun to see a Reds fan taken to task by a cards fan because the Reds fan dares to think the Reds are better - on Redszone no less. There are 800 sites to go to for that. This shouldn't be one of them. The Cards fan feels emboldened by a week's worth of results so he comes here to beat his chest and criticize an excited Reds fan? Lame.

Nobody is beating any chests or feels emboldend by a weeks worth of games. I've never felt that the Reds were better than the Cardinals, but I know some posters will scold me for saying that. I don't see anything wrong with discussing our two teams, and how they are different. If you don't agree with me, then you have every right to give your opinion about how I am wrong instead of telling me how I'm not allowed to express my opinion just because it's different than yours. I posted in the game thread last night, along with Mike, and I think we were both very respectable. I hope the rest of you thought so as well. There was no chest beating or anything like that. I even stated how I agreed with some of the calls that were made against the Cardinals that the players and the announcers thought were wrong. I thought the umpires made the right call, and I admitted that. I don't even think I posted towards the end of the game. A lot of times when the Cardinals win, I try not to post too much, because I don't want it to appear like chest beating. Heck, some years when the Cardinals made it to the playoffs, I would just stay away. I know how it feels when your team loses and everybody else is celebrating. It's not a great feeling, and I don't want to be the reason that someone else feels that way. Heck, last year when the Reds made it to the playoffs, somehow I was selected in the raffle to buy Reds playoff tickets. I didn't have any intention of going, so I gave the codes to someone on this board. I've made a lot of friends here over the years, and that's what you do for friends. I try my best to contribute to this board any way that I can, but I don't think that I should be banned from stating my opinions. There are a lot of posters that state crazy opinions, and other posters debate with them if they don't agree. I don't understand why you can't do that with a Cardinals fan. I'll give props to Reds44 though..I rarely agree with him, but he does make for good discussions. Sometimes! ;)

Phhhl
04-23-2011, 04:54 PM
I know I am going to get beat up by Reds fans, and maybe even moderators or whatever for saying so... but, Matty and Mike know what they are doing. You can be respectful and courteous all you want, but you're coming in here with an agenda to pimp the Cardinals on a Reds board. Personally, I find it more annoying than if you were a couple of obnoxious drum beaters. You guys spend every thread you participate in refuting something a Reds fan has said, describing how a Reds fan is incorrect in assessing the talent of the Cardinals, explaining how Colby Rasmus or Chris Carpenter was misunderstood in what he said... etc... Like I said, I find it very passive aggressive and very annoying, but I guess it's ok. I have to say you guys are polite, but I have to know...

Why in the world do you even want to be here? There is not a lot of love between these two teams, and the fans really don't have a lot in common. I read Cardinal boards all the time, but I have learned to kind of stay out of the fray. When I used to do so in the past, my mere presence seemed to do nothing but incite other people. So, I decided it would just be more polite to stay disengaged.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Why in the world do you even want to be here? There is not a lot of love between these two teams, and the fans really don't have a lot in common. I read Cardinal boards all the time, but I have learned to kind of stay out of the fray. When I used to do so in the past, my mere presence seemed to do nothing but incite other people. So, I decided it would just be more polite to stay disengaged.

I can't speak for Mike, but I can tell you why I want to be here. I guess there are a few reasons.

1) I enjoy friendly rivalrys, and I like to discuss my team with fans of rival teams. That's why I enjoyed visiting Astros boards in the mid 2000's, and I enjoyed when they posted on Cardinals boards that I visited. I never thought they shouldn't be allowed to post there just because they disagreed with me.

2) Most of the posters here are friendly and have good baseball discussion.

3) I grew up in Ohio as a Reds fan. My entire family are Reds fans, except myself of course. I still hold the Reds close to my heart... I really do. I remeber sneaking a radio into study hall during school on Opening Day so I could hear Marty and Joe. My favorite player when I was growing up was Kal Daniels. Although, I started liking the Dodgers when he was traded there. I had a hard time following the Cubs, but it didn't matter since he retired shortly after becoming a Cub. My dad recently told me that he thinks I was more of a die hard Kal Daniels fan than I was a Reds fan. Maybe he was right, I don't know. I don't even know why he was my favorite player. I just remember having to go everywhere that I heard he was going to be having an autograph appearance. I collected thousands of his baseball cards. So yeah, I was a Reds fan for most of my life, but then I fell in love with the Cardinals and St. Louis. That doesn't mean that I don't still like the Reds, because I do. I just don't think they are the best team in the world like a lot of posters around here do.

membengal
04-23-2011, 07:22 PM
It's not cards zone. It is annoying to a LOT of us, and when people dare to mention it, they get shouted down. So, awesome.

Maybe a baseball forum where people could repair for this who want to deal with the David Freese fan club? Seriously, then those who think this is great can go have that conversation, and those of us who don't want to deal with a Cards take on everything don't have to read it.

membengal
04-23-2011, 07:25 PM
It's no fun to see a Reds fan taken to task by a cards fan because the Reds fan dares to think the Reds are better - on Redszone no less. There are 800 sites to go to for that. This shouldn't be one of them. The Cards fan feels emboldened by a week's worth of results so he comes here to beat his chest and criticize an excited Reds fan? Lame.

Yup.

reds44
04-23-2011, 07:30 PM
Go Cards!

membengal
04-23-2011, 07:32 PM
Oh, and Matty? NONE of the posters on here think the Reds are the "best team in the world". They are the favorite team of all of us, but I am certain that this board runs to pessimism as much as any I have been around. Years of losing will do that to a fanbase, even with a one year winning interlude.

Ron Madden
04-23-2011, 07:32 PM
Go Cards!

and take the Cubs with ya. ;)

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 07:33 PM
I know I am going to get beat up by Reds fans, and maybe even moderators or whatever for saying so... but, Matty and Mike know what they are doing. You can be respectful and courteous all you want, but you're coming in here with an agenda to pimp the Cardinals on a Reds board. Personally, I find it more annoying than if you were a couple of obnoxious drum beaters. You guys spend every thread you participate in refuting something a Reds fan has said, describing how a Reds fan is incorrect in assessing the talent of the Cardinals, explaining how Colby Rasmus or Chris Carpenter was misunderstood in what he said... etc... Like I said, I find it very passive aggressive and very annoying, but I guess it's ok. I have to say you guys are polite, but I have to know...

Why in the world do you even want to be here? There is not a lot of love between these two teams, and the fans really don't have a lot in common. I read Cardinal boards all the time, but I have learned to kind of stay out of the fray. When I used to do so in the past, my mere presence seemed to do nothing but incite other people. So, I decided it would just be more polite to stay disengaged.


Yep, you are right. Matty and I sit in smoke filled rooms planning "how we can screw over the Reds Zone today". Come on dude, you are a bit paranoid.

I'm here because I feel more welcome here than I do on Cards boards. I can actually talk baseball here rather than join in the 20000 threads on a Cardinals board about how TLR should be fired. Frankly, the rhetoric going on here for simply having a differing point of view when someone brings up the Reds vs. Cardinals is making me change my opinion on being welcome here.

Ron Madden
04-23-2011, 07:35 PM
I'm here because I feel more welcome here than I do on Cards boards. I can actually talk baseball here rather than join in the 20000 threads on a Cardinals board about how TLR should be fired. Frankly, the rhetoric going on here for simply having a differing point of view when someone brings up the Reds vs. Cardinals is making me change my opinion on being welcome here.

Hang in there.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 07:37 PM
Maybe a baseball forum where people could repair for this who want to deal with the David Freese fan club? Seriously, then those who think this is great can go have that conversation, and those of us who don't want to deal with a Cards take on everything don't have to read it.

This is the perfect example of the overreaction for having a differing point of view. I don't think it is out of line to say that David Freese production will be better than an aging Rolen's this year. Yet, for some reason that gets construed into the "David Freese fan club".

How about next time actually debate the point instead of briefly reading a response and saying "oh these damn Red Bird fans, here they go again".

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 07:39 PM
And I think its silly to criticize Matty having an agenda when has been part of this board since like 2002, if his avatar information is correct.

reds44
04-23-2011, 07:44 PM
You're on a Reds board. Talking about the Cardinals. Know you're audience.

reds44
04-23-2011, 07:45 PM
And btw, projecting a 28 year old 3rd baseman with 333 career ABs to be better than Scott Rolen is another one of those "projections" I'd like to see the formula for.

Plus Plus
04-23-2011, 07:47 PM
The personal attacks on all Cardinals fans, namely MattyHo and MikeThierry need to stop immediately. These are posters who have been nothing but polite and civil, help to generate a lot of positive conversation (about both the Reds and the Cardinals) and are completely welcome to post here.

They were also voted into the ORG by the active ORG members, so any sentiments that they are or should be unwelcome are absolutely off base.

mth123
04-23-2011, 07:49 PM
The personal attacks on all Cardinals fans, namely MattyHo and MikeThierry need to stop immediately. These are posters who have been nothing but polite and civil, help to generate a lot of positive conversation (about both the Reds and the Cardinals) and are completely welcome to post here.

They were also voted into the ORG by the active ORG members, so any sentiments that they are or should be unwelcome are absolutely off base.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

membengal
04-23-2011, 07:49 PM
This is the perfect example of the overreaction for having a differing point of view. I don't think it is out of line to say that David Freese production will be better than an aging Rolen's this year. Yet, for some reason that gets construed into the "David Freese fan club".

How about next time actually debate the point instead of briefly reading a response and saying "oh these damn Red Bird fans, here they go again".

Because I don't want to "debate the point"? Because I don't care?

And, I don't see any "personal attacks". What I do see is longtime board members expressing views. But that's probably only okay if its Cards fans, I suppose.

Ron Madden
04-23-2011, 07:49 PM
The personal attacks on all Cardinals fans, namely MattyHo and MikeThierry need to stop immediately. These are posters who have been nothing but polite and civil, help to generate a lot of positive conversation (about both the Reds and the Cardinals) and are completely welcome to post here.

They were also voted into the ORG by the active ORG members, so any sentiments that they are or should be unwelcome are absolutely off base.


Well said.

MikeThierry
04-23-2011, 07:51 PM
And btw, projecting a 28 year old 3rd baseman with 333 career ABs to be better than Scott Rolen is another one of those "projections" I'd like to see the formula for.

I'll take Freese over an aging, injured Rolen this season. If we were talking about last year's Rolen it would be a different story. That shoulder though looks like its going to be an issue all year long.

reds44
04-23-2011, 07:52 PM
I'll take Freese over an aging, injured Rolen this season. If we were talking about last year's Rolen it would be a different story. That shoulder though looks like its going to be an issue all year long.
He's a billion years old. Everything will be an issue. It was last year too. If you offered me Freese for Rolen right now there's no chance I'd take it.

jojo
04-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Freese is projected to be a roughly league average bat and something like a -5 to roughly neutral defender.

It's probably reasonable to expect Freese to be a roughly league average starter because he can draw a walk and act slap happy.

Scott Rolen is clearly a significantly better player from a true talent perspective maybe by as much as 1.5 WAR even at his age. The only issue is whether Rolen will be able to play.

Plus Plus
04-23-2011, 08:02 PM
Because I don't want to "debate the point"? Because I don't care?

And, I don't see any "personal attacks". What I do see is longtime board members expressing views. But that's probably only okay if its Cards fans, I suppose.

Posts that question how welcome fans of other teams are to post here are 100% regarded by this moderator as attacks on posters who are fans of the other teams.

Everyone is welcome to post and express opinions about baseball here at Redszone, as long as they follow the rules that can be found at the bottom of every page. In my opinion, statements like:


Why do we have to read this stuff in a Reds forum?


...you're coming in here with an agenda to pimp the Cardinals on a Reds board. Personally, I find it more annoying than if you were a couple of obnoxious drum beaters.


It's not cards zone. It is annoying to a LOT of us, and when people dare to mention it, they get shouted down. So, awesome.

...deliberately single out the minority and make them feel less welcome. I know that Boss-Hog has said repeatedly that fans of all teams who are voted into the ORG and follow the rules are welcome to post here.

These posters are not starting threads titled "Pujols is the best player in baseball," "Carpenter for Cy Young!," or "Yadier Molina- best tattoos in baseball." They are participating civilly in conversations about the Reds. They bring up a perspective held by Cardinals fans when discussing certain situations, such as a three game series between the Reds and Cardinals. I don't see this as any sort of problem on any level at all.

I guess I shouldn't bring up the fact that I work for the Frontier League's Normal Cornbelters in the summers here, because this isn't CornbeltersZone?

I dislike the Cardinals as much as the next Reds fan, but the atmosphere here needs to be more welcome towards fans of other teams who are in the ORG.

traderumor
04-23-2011, 11:07 PM
Yep, you are right. Matty and I sit in smoke filled rooms planning "how we can screw over the Reds Zone today". Come on dude, you are a bit paranoid.

I'm here because I feel more welcome here than I do on Cards boards. I can actually talk baseball here rather than join in the 20000 threads on a Cardinals board about how TLR should be fired. Frankly, the rhetoric going on here for simply having a differing point of view when someone brings up the Reds vs. Cardinals is making me change my opinion on being welcome here.But you don't have a differing point of view, it is a homer Cards fan point of view, and what you are criticizing the RZ Reds fan for (we all think the Reds are the greatest), you and Matty have been doing since the season started, as in all that the Cards have done will turn to gold, or wild projections on Kyle Lohse, and David Freese is better than our third baseman because he's younger and he's not currently on the DL (give him time).

I'll give you that is a "differing" point of view, but it is biased by aggrandizing your view of your team's players and denigrating the Reds players. Sure that's fandom, but let's not pretend like you are bringing an objective point of view to the table about either of these teams.

757690
04-23-2011, 11:14 PM
I find it flattering that fans from other teams want to post here.

I have absolutly no desire to post on Cardinal, Cub or Brewer boards. :)

cincrazy
04-24-2011, 12:04 AM
The Cards fans that post on this board are intelligent, civil, and interesting. And if we were to run them off, it'd be a shame. Whether we'd like to admit it or not due to our inferiority complex, the Cardinals have great fans, some of the best fans in the game. And the more of them that are around here to talk baseball in a civil manner, the better.

traderumor
04-24-2011, 12:09 AM
The Cards fans that post on this board are intelligent, civil, and interesting. And if we were to run them off, it'd be a shame. Whether we'd like to admit it or not due to our inferiority complex, the Cardinals have great fans, some of the best fans in the game. And the more of them that are around here to talk baseball in a civil manner, the better.Nobody is trying to run anyone off. Great, lets talk about baseball with other team's fans, not just their team and how much they love them and endless comparisons between our team and theirs. Each team has fan boards for that.

cincrazy
04-24-2011, 12:25 AM
Nobody is trying to run anyone off. Great, lets talk about baseball with other team's fans, not just their team and how much they love them and endless comparisons between our team and theirs. Each team has fan boards for that.

Hey I think it's a valid point. Scott Rolen at this stage of his career or David Freese? It's not like they're saying they'd take Lance Berkman over Jay Bruce over the next five years. Scott Rolen is beat up. He faded down the stretch last season, is battling a bad back and shoulders, and may not have much left in the tank. That's just a fact.

David Freese isn't a world beater, but he's a solid player that's going to be in the lineup every day (barring further ankle problems, of course). Personally, I probably still take Rolen. But I had to seriously think about it. Third base is a huge problem for us. And we're unlikely to duplicate the production we got from it last year. That's a big problem.

Boss-Hog
04-24-2011, 12:37 AM
Posts that question how welcome fans of other teams are to post here are 100% regarded by this moderator as attacks on posters who are fans of the other teams.

Everyone is welcome to post and express opinions about baseball here at Redszone, as long as they follow the rules that can be found at the bottom of every page. In my opinion, statements like:







...deliberately single out the minority and make them feel less welcome. I know that Boss-Hog has said repeatedly that fans of all teams who are voted into the ORG and follow the rules are welcome to post here.

These posters are not starting threads titled "Pujols is the best player in baseball," "Carpenter for Cy Young!," or "Yadier Molina- best tattoos in baseball." They are participating civilly in conversations about the Reds. They bring up a perspective held by Cardinals fans when discussing certain situations, such as a three game series between the Reds and Cardinals. I don't see this as any sort of problem on any level at all.

I guess I shouldn't bring up the fact that I work for the Frontier League's Normal Cornbelters in the summers here, because this isn't CornbeltersZone?

I dislike the Cardinals as much as the next Reds fan, but the atmosphere here needs to be more welcome towards fans of other teams who are in the ORG.

The above is an excellent post and accurately reflects my thoughts on the matter (which I've already made clear). Unfortunately, some ARE trying to run the Cards fans off and have openly admitted they want them to leave or even be banned. When the series with the Cardinals was going on in Cincinnati last August, we had NUMEROUS trolls that were Cards fans join the board, showed absolutely zero regard for the rules or spirit of the board and were promptly permanently banned. While many naturally will not agree with, or want to hear from Matty and Mike, they follow the rules and are polite to others. I strongly suggest some of you adopt the same attitude towards your fellow posters because effective immediately, we're going to have zero tolerance for anything to the contrary.

Danny Serafini
04-24-2011, 01:12 AM
The personal attacks on all Cardinals fans, namely MattyHo and MikeThierry need to stop immediately. These are posters who have been nothing but polite and civil, help to generate a lot of positive conversation (about both the Reds and the Cardinals) and are completely welcome to post here.

They were also voted into the ORG by the active ORG members, so any sentiments that they are or should be unwelcome are absolutely off base.


The Cards fans that post on this board are intelligent, civil, and interesting. And if we were to run them off, it'd be a shame. Whether we'd like to admit it or not due to our inferiority complex, the Cardinals have great fans, some of the best fans in the game. And the more of them that are around here to talk baseball in a civil manner, the better.

+1 to both

MattyHo4Life
04-24-2011, 01:50 AM
Hey I think it's a valid point. Scott Rolen at this stage of his career or David Freese? It's not like they're saying they'd take Lance Berkman over Jay Bruce over the next five years. Scott Rolen is beat up. He faded down the stretch last season, is battling a bad back and shoulders, and may not have much left in the tank. That's just a fact.

David Freese isn't a world beater, but he's a solid player that's going to be in the lineup every day (barring further ankle problems, of course). Personally, I probably still take Rolen. But I had to seriously think about it. Third base is a huge problem for us. And we're unlikely to duplicate the production we got from it last year. That's a big problem.

I think it's closer than a lot of people think it is. Both Rolen and Freese have their advantages. Rolen has superior defense, experience, leadership, and can still be an offensive threat even though he is older and isn't as durable as he has been in the past. Freese is younger, cheaper, above average defensively, is showing he is good with the bat, but still unproven. Freese also hasn't shown yet that he is durable, but he is under team control for years to come. I think Rolen is good for the Reds because he provides that veteran leadership similar to what Berkman is doing for the Cardinals this year. I'd prefer Freese, but I can understand why some would choose Rolen.