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bucksfan2
04-28-2010, 01:17 PM
Last night was a microcosm of Brandon Phillips. He works a walk and then proceeded to get picked off first base because he is lazily walking away from the bag. But he can go out and play top notch defense.

My patience is wearing thin with BP. He used to be a great base runner. His first season with the Reds he was caught stealing 2 times all year long. This season he has 1-4 and picked off at least twice. He is being thrown out by a mile when he steals. He is hacktastic at the plate and swings for the fences too much. It has been pretty clearly stated that he is best when he hits the ball to the RC gap. Problem is he pulls off the ball too much trying to hit it 500 feet.

If I am Dusty Phillips is sitting for tonight's game and maybe Thursday's. Mental lapses at the rate Phillips is having them is unacceptable. If I am Walt I am looking for a trading partner right away. I have a bad feeling that Phillips is going to become an expensive headache over the next few years.

oneupper
04-28-2010, 01:22 PM
IIRC, Brandon's contract calls for $11 million in 2011 and a $12 million option for 2012 (club).

He's a fixture. You do nothing. You live with him and try to work out the kinks. If someone calls about him, you listen. And in 2012 say hello to Mr. Frazier.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 01:26 PM
The time to move him for great talent has passed, low OB, great fielder, eratic output is a nice player at a low cost, at a high cost he's a gamble, gambles get back other gambles.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 01:34 PM
While he didn't exactly get great results, I thought his approach last night was as good as I've seen it. Short of moving Rolen or Hanigan up to 2nd, which Dusty will never do since Rolen doesn't have speed (and 3B is an "RBI spot) and Hanigan is a catcher (and thus bats 7th or 8th), I'd like to see him get an extended shot batting 2nd. It's certainly better than whoever is at SS.

Long term, unless somebody in the minors really forces the issue, I'd like to see him stay through the end of his contract. Yes, he gets paid a lot. But as a ~3 win player, he's not overpaid. That said, I'd quietly be shopping him around and wouldn't think twice about dealing him for a good return.

11larkin11
04-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Can we stop with the hacktastic stuff? He's obviously got a different approach this year, and is on pace for a great walk rate. If he was batting his career average, he would be OBPing about .340 right now, and thats only with a .260 average. His BABIP is .225. I he's going to be perfectly fine where he is, and continues to be underrated by a majority of people here. My only problem with him was being in the 4 hole, which if he stays out of, I'm fine with.

Roy Tucker
04-28-2010, 01:54 PM
Dusty on moving Phillips to 2nd in batting order:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100427/SPT04/4280373

TRF
04-28-2010, 01:58 PM
It is interesting how Bruce got a pass for being unlucky with a low babip, and nobody mentions BP's .226 babip.

just sayin'

savafan
04-28-2010, 01:58 PM
Dusty on moving Phillips to 2nd in batting order:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100427/SPT04/4280373

Wouldn't this have to be preceeded by a move to shortstop? ;)

RichRed
04-28-2010, 02:03 PM
While he didn't exactly get great results, I thought his approach last night was as good as I've seen it. Short of moving Rolen or Hanigan up to 2nd, which Dusty will never do since Rolen doesn't have speed (and 3B is an "RBI spot) and Hanigan is a catcher (and thus bats 7th or 8th), I'd like to see him get an extended shot batting 2nd. It's certainly better than whoever is at SS.


I agree, I think his approach will improve in the 2-spot. "What to do with Brandon Phillips" though is figure a way to get his head out of his you-know-where on those occasions when he actually gets on base.

If I'm reading baseball-reference.com correctly, Phillips has reached 1st base 19 times only to erase himself from the basepaths 6 times (3 CS and 3 pickoffs). A player with an already subpar OBP cannot afford to exacerbate things with bad baserunning, especially on an already offensively-challenged team.

redhawkfish
04-28-2010, 02:10 PM
The thing that frustrates me the most about BP is that he does have some quality at bats, and he is capable of having a good approach at the plate. I am not saying never swing at the first pitch or wait until you get a strike to swing. It is the idiotic early swings at low breaking stuff out of the strike zone that baffle me. I hope he will do well in the 2 hole, because he is capable, but I worry whether he will maintain good plate discipline.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Can we stop with the hacktastic stuff? He's obviously got a different approach this year, and is on pace for a great walk rate. If he was batting his career average, he would be OBPing about .340 right now, and thats only with a .260 average. His BABIP is .225. I he's going to be perfectly fine where he is, and continues to be underrated by a majority of people here. My only problem with him was being in the 4 hole, which if he stays out of, I'm fine with.

I wonder if his new found patience at the plate (which started in spring training, so I don't think it's a fluke) is the reason why his BA is so low?

Phillips in his career thrived on hitting the first fastball he sees. Now, it seems he is going deeper into the count, and hitting with two strikes more often, and considering he is a terrible two strike hitter, in fact, he's not even that good of a one strike hitter, I wonder if he would be better off going back to his old self?

I have no idea if the data supports this theory, just thought I'd throw it out.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 02:28 PM
Can we stop with the hacktastic stuff? He's obviously got a different approach this year, and is on pace for a great walk rate. If he was batting his career average, he would be OBPing about .340 right now, and thats only with a .260 average. His BABIP is .225. I he's going to be perfectly fine where he is, and continues to be underrated by a majority of people here. My only problem with him was being in the 4 hole, which if he stays out of, I'm fine with.

Great walk rates give guys OB% above .360, guys with 9 BB in 77 ab's are hardly walk monsters, guys with walks in only 30% of the games they've played are not walk driven offensive players.

Brandon's bat is his offense, if he finishes the season with a BB in every 12 ab's that's an improvement, if it's every 8.5 ab like his current rate then that'll be a miracle.

bucksfan2
04-28-2010, 02:34 PM
I agree, I think his approach will improve in the 2-spot. "What to do with Brandon Phillips" though is figure a way to get his head out of his you-know-where on those occasions when he actually gets on base.

If I'm reading baseball-reference.com correctly, Phillips has reached 1st base 19 times only to erase himself from the basepaths 6 times (3 CS and 3 pickoffs). A player with an already subpar OBP cannot afford to exacerbate things with bad baserunning, especially on an already offensively-challenged team.

Just going off my memory I remember two CS. Both the ball beat him to the base by a long margin. In one he pulled his hand back and actually was safe but the ump blew the ball. The other one was an attempt at 3b in which he wasn't even close.

The reason I bring up base running is that BP used to excel at that. He used to pick and chose his spots, steal off the pitcher, and had a very high success rate. This season it seems as if he has gotten lazy (as seen by the pickoffs) and is stealing when he wants to not when the situation arises. He is making way too many outs, dumb outs, on the base paths right now.

I hate to say it but a lot of the red flags about BP that arose during his Cleveland days are starting show themselves. With Brandon it has never been about his game, just the space in between his ears.

westofyou
04-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Just going off my memory I remember two CS. Both the ball beat him to the base by a long margin. In one he pulled his hand back and actually was safe but the ump blew the ball. The other one was an attempt at 3b in which he wasn't even close.

The reason I bring up base running is that BP used to excel at that. He used to pick and chose his spots, steal off the pitcher, and had a very high success rate. This season it seems as if he has gotten lazy (as seen by the pickoffs) and is stealing when he wants to not when the situation arises. He is making way too many outs, dumb outs, on the base paths right now.

I hate to say it but a lot of the red flags about BP that arose during his Cleveland days are starting show themselves. With Brandon it has never been about his game, just the space in between his ears.
Voto has 2 CS and he has been tossed out taking an extra base too, it's a part of any Baker managed teams fabric, they tend to be overly aggressive on the bases at times.

Chip R
04-28-2010, 02:39 PM
It is interesting how Bruce got a pass for being unlucky with a low babip, and nobody mentions BP's .226 babip.

just sayin'


Yeah, nobody's ever criticized Jay Bruce on here. :rolleyes:

TRF
04-28-2010, 02:43 PM
Yeah, nobody's ever criticized Jay Bruce on here. :rolleyes:

Yeah and there were no threads about how unlucky he was either. :rolleyes:

Brutus
04-28-2010, 02:44 PM
I wonder if his new found patience at the plate (which started in spring training, so I don't think it's a fluke) is the reason why his BA is so low?

Phillips in his career thrived on hitting the first fastball he sees. Now, it seems he is going deeper into the count, and hitting with two strikes more often, and considering he is a terrible two strike hitter, in fact, he's not even that good of a one strike hitter, I wonder if he would be better off going back to his old self?

I have no idea if the data supports this theory, just thought I'd throw it out.

I don't think it has much relevance, but the data does support your observations about his approach.

He has a career-best rate going this year of not swinging at pitches outside the strike zone, according to Fangraphs. Further, he's got a career-best contact percentage going and is swinging at 5% fewer pitches than any season in his career.

He's walking 10.3% of the time thus far, which if that kept up would also be a career-high.

Really, for as much as Jay Bruce has been a bit snake-bitten, Phillips is also suffering from the .226 BABIP as mentioned. Now, Phillips only has a 15.6% line drive rate - which definitely is not very good. His xBABIP is .268 by one formula. Essentially, he should have 2-3 more hits than he has. His average would be just shy of .250 with three additional hits added.

So he's been a little unlucky, though it seems he's not hitting the ball hard enough for those balls to drop. If he gets back closer to about 19% line drive rate, he should be back around .270-.280 when it's all said and done.

fearofpopvol1
04-28-2010, 04:15 PM
What I think Brandon suffers from is he tends to have "lazy moments." In the 2006 and 2007 season, I did not see this so much from him. He had more to prove than he does now. He's got a bigger contract and isn't always giving 100%. I think he got caught being lazy last night at 1B. Mind you, these moments do not happen all the time, but just on occasion and they are very frustrating.

On the plus side though...his plate approach, thus far this season, is the best I've seen from him. He is being way more patient and way more selective with pitches he swings at. He's walking too. I'm quite pleased with that.

REDblooded
04-28-2010, 05:02 PM
It is interesting how Bruce got a pass for being unlucky with a low babip, and nobody mentions BP's .226 babip.

just sayin'

It's one thing to give a 23 year old with less than 900 AB's the benefit of the doubt... Quiet another to do it with a guy that turns 29 in a month, and has nearly 3000 AB's under his belt...

Also with Bruce it wasn't just Reds fans pointing to his BABIP... It's all you heard about all offseason from baseball writers who were projecting their breakout candidates...

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 05:08 PM
I don't think it has much relevance, but the data does support your observations about his approach.

He has a career-best rate going this year of not swinging at pitches outside the strike zone, according to Fangraphs. Further, he's got a career-best contact percentage going and is swinging at 5% fewer pitches than any season in his career.

He's walking 10.3% of the time thus far, which if that kept up would also be a career-high.

Really, for as much as Jay Bruce has been a bit snake-bitten, Phillips is also suffering from the .226 BABIP as mentioned. Now, Phillips only has a 15.6% line drive rate - which definitely is not very good. His xBABIP is .268 by one formula. Essentially, he should have 2-3 more hits than he has. His average would be just shy of .250 with three additional hits added.

So he's been a little unlucky, though it seems he's not hitting the ball hard enough for those balls to drop. If he gets back closer to about 19% line drive rate, he should be back around .270-.280 when it's all said and done.

Thanks for the research. :thumbup:

I guess my big question now is, and I don't have a clue as to the answer:

Is Phillips' low LD% due to him taking more pitches?

TRF
04-28-2010, 05:09 PM
It's one thing to give a 23 year old with less than 900 AB's the benefit of the doubt... Quiet another to do it with a guy that turns 29 in a month, and has nearly 3000 AB's under his belt...

Also with Bruce it wasn't just Reds fans pointing to his BABIP... It's all you heard about all offseason from baseball writers who were projecting their breakout candidates...

true, but with Bruce it was projecting and luck. With BP, well to quote a famous football coach, he is what we thought he was. That stated, he's had some bad luck. Not all of it is bad luck, but that babip probably won't continue.

Int the end, he's likely a 2.70-.280 hitter with a .340 OBP. And he'll probably hit 20HR's.

But like Stubbs is miscast as a leadoff hitter (my opinion) BP has to be removed from the #4 spot permanently.

REDblooded
04-28-2010, 05:22 PM
Thanks for the research. :thumbup:

I guess my big question now is, and I don't have a clue as to the answer:

Is Phillips' low LD% due to him taking more pitches?

I think it has more to do with the fact that he's trying to put the screws to everything he swings at... Because he's overswinging he's missing high or low, and not making solid contact... That results in fly balls and dribblers that turn into double plays...

REDblooded
04-28-2010, 05:24 PM
true, but with Bruce it was projecting and luck. With BP, well to quote a famous football coach, he is what we thought he was. That stated, he's had some bad luck. Not all of it is bad luck, but that babip probably won't continue.

Int the end, he's likely a 2.70-.280 hitter with a .340 OBP. And he'll probably hit 20HR's.

But like Stubbs is miscast as a leadoff hitter (my opinion) BP has to be removed from the #4 spot permanently.

Definitely agree with you here... I shuddered when Phillips opened spring training with a personal home run projection... Saw that as a sign of bad things to come.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 07:10 PM
I think it has more to do with the fact that he's trying to put the screws to everything he swings at... Because he's overswinging he's missing high or low, and not making solid contact... That results in fly balls and dribblers that turn into double plays...

He's always done that. If anything, he's doing it less this year than usual.

Far East
04-28-2010, 07:54 PM
Has anybody else noticed a decrease in his range on defense, or is it just my imagination?

It seems that more and more grounders, albeit hard hit balls and difficult plays, are making it past Brandon -- both to his glove side and backhand side.

IMHO, his range in 2010 is not all that much better than Cabrara's.

Based on current OPS, here are the 8 top position players (excluding Hernandez, because the other catcher ranks #1):

Hanigan 1.248
Janish 1.127
Votto 0.853
Rolen 0.915
Bruce 0.762
Cabrara 0.668
Phillips 0.641
Gomes 0.640

Note the absence of the two usual centerfielders, and a surplus of middle infielders. Can/should Phillips be moved to the OF? Could Janish at 2B and Phillips, say at CF, hit and field reasonably well enough to merit the makeover? It would move a gold glove infielder to the OF, but it would get one of the top 8 OPS guys into the lineup. Of course, that big a shift could best happen during spring training.

RANDY IN INDY
04-29-2010, 09:27 AM
Just watching him and his actions, he looks like he is in an "All-out pout," right now.

OnBaseMachine
05-04-2010, 11:23 PM
From C. Trent's twitter:

Asked Dusty should Phillips have had a triple in 3rd? "Probably"

http://twitter.com/ctrent

When will Phillips learn? How many times have we seen him jog out of the box after thinking he's hit a home run? I also thought he should have been on third base. Votto followed Phillips double with a deep flyout, so if Phillips had been on third he would've scored. Failing to get that run in turned out to be huge as the Reds lost the game by one run.

flyer85
05-04-2010, 11:26 PM
1) get a jar of mustard
2) apply liberally

edabbs44
05-04-2010, 11:26 PM
From C. Trent's twitter:

Asked Dusty should Phillips have had a triple in 3rd? "Probably"

http://twitter.com/ctrent

When will Phillips learn? How many times have we seen him jog out of the box after thinking he's hit a home run? I also thought he should have been on third base. Votto followed Phillips double with a deep flyout, so if Phillips had been on third he would've scored. Failing to get that run in turned out to be huge as the Reds lost the game by one run.

Wonder if you see Janish "spelling" him tomorrow. IIRC, Dusty hasn't been afraid to bench BP in the past.

OnBaseMachine
05-05-2010, 12:17 AM
From John Fay - Baker throws Phillips under the bus


But there’s a pretty good chance the Reds could have gotten one more. With one out in the third Brandon Phillips hit one high drive off the wall in the left-center. The ball took a weird bounce past center fielder Angel Pagan.

Phillips ended up with a double. He very likely could have had a triple. But he did not break hard out of the batter’s box.

Dusty Baker was asked if Phillips should have been on third on the play.

“Yeah, probably,” Baker said. “It looked at first he thought it might be gone. He started running about half way (to first). It’s a little too late at that time.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/04/baker-throws-phillips-under-the-bus/

I like Phillips, he's a good player, but he has got to stop doing this.

CTA513
05-05-2010, 12:41 AM
From John Fay - Baker throws Phillips under the bus



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/04/baker-throws-phillips-under-the-bus/

I like Phillips, he's a good player, but he has got to stop doing this.



From last season:


Baker unhappy with Phillips

It will be very interesting to check out the Reds lineup on Tuesday and see if Brandon Phillips is in it.

Phillips was caught not hustling again on what he expected to be a routine fly out in the first inning. The ball was lost in the sky by right fielder Andre Ethier. Because he wasn't running hard out of the batters' box, Phillips missed a chance for a RBI double that would have put him on second with no outs and a 3-0 Reds lead.

"I was just happy I finally did something with runners in scoring position," Phillips explained. "I hit a fly ball to get the run and I was satisfied with that. I hit the ball in the outfield and was 'I missed it.' I put my head down. I didn't know he missed it until I looked back up. I could have done worse and not get the run in at all."

Moments later, Phillips admitted his mistake.

"I messed up," he said. "That's my second time not hustling this year. It won't happen again."


Full story: http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/baker_unhappy_with_phillips.html

Big Klu
05-05-2010, 01:00 AM
From C. Trent's twitter:

Asked Dusty should Phillips have had a triple in 3rd? "Probably"

http://twitter.com/ctrent

When will Phillips learn? How many times have we seen him jog out of the box after thinking he's hit a home run? I also thought he should have been on third base. Votto followed Phillips double with a deep flyout, so if Phillips had been on third he would've scored. Failing to get that run in turned out to be huge as the Reds lost the game by one run.


From John Fay - Baker throws Phillips under the bus



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/04/baker-throws-phillips-under-the-bus/

I like Phillips, he's a good player, but he has got to stop doing this.

Not defending him, even though I like Brandon, because I am on record as saying how I prefer players who hustle. But this is a problem that is not unique to Phillips--it is pervasive throughout baseball, and not just on the Reds. (I will decline to mention a very prominent perpetrator in a Reds uniform over the last ten years or so.) In fact, players like Scott Rolen and Joey Votto, who hustle out of the box every time, seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Big Klu
05-05-2010, 01:02 AM
Wonder if you see Janish "spelling" him tomorrow. IIRC, Dusty hasn't been afraid to bench BP in the past.

I would be a little surprised, because I look for Cabrera and Rolen to both get the day off tomorrow (day game after a night game). So Janish would be at SS, and Cairo would be at 3B.

Ron Madden
05-05-2010, 04:02 AM
I like Brandon Phillips but I have to admit he is one of the biggest hot dogs to ever wear a Cincinnati Reds uniform.

If Brandon played for any other team in the league Reds Fans would hate him.

TheNext44
05-05-2010, 04:10 AM
I'm pretty pro Phillips, mostly because I love his defense.

But I actually would trade him as soon as possible. Literally.

I agree with Big Klu that most players don't break out of the box every time, but there is no excuse for looking at what you think is a home run, even if it is a homer every time.

As a teacher, I had a rule about students who said that this would never happen again, for the second time. No more chances, no more excuses, full punishment this time, and even worse if it happens again.

I've lost count of how many times this has happened to Phillips. Admitting he made a mistake is meaningless now, he has to pay a price for his behavior, and a one game benching won't do.

Trade him. I am sure the Reds can get good value for him, considering he's underpaid this year, and properly paid next season. But it doesn't matter who they get, he has become a liability. He is costing the team wins, but more importantly, he is hurting the moral of the team. Why play hard if other players are going to lose games by not playing hard? I'd don't think the Reds can compete with Phillips on the team anymore.

Trade him and call up Valaika.

reds44
05-05-2010, 04:12 AM
You don't trade him. That hurts the team more than what he is doing.

It's pretty simple, everytime he does something like tonight, you fine him. The more he does it, the more you fine him. Hit him where it hurts.

reds44
05-05-2010, 04:13 AM
From last season:
I'm not even going to blame Phillips for that. 90% of players in the majors wouldn't have been running hard on a routine flyball to the OF.

Welcome to baseball in the 2000's.

Ron Madden
05-05-2010, 04:14 AM
I'm pretty pro Phillips, mostly because I love his defense.

But I actually would trade him as soon as possible. Literally.

I agree with Big Klu that most players don't break out of the box every time, but there is no excuse for looking at what you think is a home run, even if it is a homer every time.

As a teacher, I had a rule about students who said that this would never happen again, for the second time. No more chances, no more excuses, full punishment this time, and even worse if it happens again.

I've lost count of how many times this has happened to Phillips. Admitting he made a mistake is meaningless now, he has to pay a price for his behavior, and a one game benching won't do.

Trade him. I am sure the Reds can get good value for him, considering he's underpaid this year, and properly paid next season. But it doesn't matter who they get, he has become a liability. He is costing the team wins, but more importantly, he is hurting the moral of the team. Why play hard if other players are going to lose games by not playing hard? I'd don't think the Reds can compete with Phillips on the team anymore.

Trade him and call up Valaika.

I believe most would say Phillips will be over paid in 2011.

Ron Madden
05-05-2010, 04:22 AM
I'd trade Phillips and/or Rhodes as soon as I could for as much as I could get in return, before their value plummets.

GAC
05-05-2010, 05:31 AM
I liked how the Sheldon phrases it......

In a one-run loss, the difference doesn't always have to be the home run in the top of the ninth -- like the one Rod Barajas hit for the Mets against Francisco Cordero to send the Reds to a 5-4 loss on Tuesday.

Sometimes it's the run that didn't score but could have, or should have.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100504&content_id=9786614&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Next batter Joey Votto hit a deep fly to left field. Had Phillips been on third base, he likely would have scored on the sacrifice fly. Although the Reds didn't know it then, it would be the one run they wished they had scored.

----------

This is Brandon Phillips. How many times has he done stuff like this, and even been called out on it by his manager? He's everything that everyone has accused him of.... a hot dog, ego, attitude, chip on his shoulder, etc.

You're not going to change the guy. Why should he have to change (in his mind)? He got his big contract. He's won a GG. He's made it baby!

One minute he's turning heads with his defense at 2B... and the next, turning heads because he's not using his. ;)

Razor Shines
05-05-2010, 05:40 AM
I've been pretty critical of BP, mostly for his plate approach, and I think we should trade him if we can. But I don't think this was a big deal, maybe he could have been at third maybe not, I'm more concerned with whether or not he continues to hit balls off the wall.

Ltlabner
05-05-2010, 08:08 AM
Has anybody else noticed a decrease in his range on defense, or is it just my imagination?


Just watching him and his actions, he looks like he is in an "All-out pout," right now.

Opening day there was a play in one of the early innings (whatever was the first run scoring inning for the Cards) where it *appeared* that Brandon could have gotten to the ball, or at the very least, kept it from the outfield. My father and I both noticed it. Maybe there was no chance in the world of him getting to it but it sure looked like a dog of a play.

One play, that means nothing in the grand scheme of things but something is different about Brandon this year and frankly I think it's between his ears more than between the lines.

nate
05-05-2010, 09:40 AM
You don't trade him. That hurts the team more than what he is doing.

How can you say this without knowing the return?

lollipopcurve
05-05-2010, 09:41 AM
Phillips will be very difficult to trade. He makes 11M next year and 12M in 2012 (a trade triggers a mutual option on that 12M). The only way the Reds can deal will be to eat salary and/or to take on a similar contract the other team is anxious to unload.

Milton Bradley, anyone?

nate
05-05-2010, 09:41 AM
I believe most would say Phillips will be over paid in 2011.

Actually, based on what a win costs in FA and if BP plays roughly like he has over the past 3 years, he _will_ be worth it.

However, I'd be shopping him.

edabbs44
05-05-2010, 09:42 AM
Milton Bradley, anyone?

http://thesweetsnob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cricket-info0.gif

bucksfan2
05-05-2010, 09:53 AM
You don't trade him. That hurts the team more than what he is doing.

It's pretty simple, everytime he does something like tonight, you fine him. The more he does it, the more you fine him. Hit him where it hurts.

Im not so sure it hurts the team. I am just assuming that Todd Frazier could come up here and replicate his minor league offensive numbers. He definitely would be a defensive downgrade but I think he would be an overall offensive upgrade.

I truly think that if you swap Frazier for Phillips you get a net return of 0 while also giving some payroll flexibility.

membengal
05-05-2010, 12:14 PM
Demoted all the way to clean-up today, so I am sure... lesson. learned.

Chip R
05-05-2010, 12:16 PM
Demoted all the way to clean-up today, so I am sure... lesson. learned.


He was dropped in the batting order. What more do you want?

OnBaseMachine
05-05-2010, 01:13 PM
From C. Trent:


As for the third-inning double, Baker said he's adressed it with Phillips.

"He's been talked to," Baker said. "About this -- and.. we talk to Brandon quite often. I guess he's better than he used to be, but we're still trying to get him to the point where he can be a big difference maker every day because he certainly has the skill and the ability."

Is it tough to watch as a manager?

"What's tough as a manager is when you have an A student who is getting Bs," Baker said. "Now let's change the subject."


http://cnati.com/cincinnati-reds/an-a-student-getting-bs-001907/

flyer85
05-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Sometimes it's the run that didn't score but could have, or should have.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100504&content_id=9786614&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Next batter Joey Votto hit a deep fly to left field. Had Phillips been on third base, he likely would have scored on the sacrifice fly. Although the Reds didn't know it then, it would be the one run they wished they had scored.

Gary Parrish wrote an article about "knuckleheads" the other day. He theory was if you are one you will always be one. I think this applies to hot dogs like Phillips. He is who he is and it isn't going to change.

BTW, I did notice how Rolen, on his HR, busted it out of the box the moment he hit it.

Not sure I would trade Phillips. The biggest issue is that he is miscast as a top half of the order hitter with the Reds. He is a 6/7 type hitter, of course the Reds have a lineup full of those type of guys.

Eric_the_Red
05-05-2010, 01:40 PM
"What's tough as a manager is when you have an A student who is getting Bs," Baker said. "Now let's change the subject."

Ouch.

If BP continues to get B's, I would be in favor of trading him. I'd rather pay less for a B student that gives B results than paying an A student more for the same results.

TheNext44
05-05-2010, 01:54 PM
Phillips will be very difficult to trade. He makes 11M next year and 12M in 2012 (a trade triggers a mutual option on that 12M). The only way the Reds can deal will be to eat salary and/or to take on a similar contract the other team is anxious to unload.

Milton Bradley, anyone?

But he's been worth more than that each of the last three years, if you agree with the way that WAR is calculated. And he's been mostly injury free for his career.

I actually have no problem with his contract and would love for the Reds to keep him, if he didn't have other issues.

His problem is different than Bradley's in that it's more to do with on the field problems than off, and that this is Phillip's second team to have these issues, not his umpteenth. I think some team is more likely to think that they can change Phillips with a change of scenery than with Bradley. But both are similar in that their behavior hurts their team.

TheNext44
05-05-2010, 01:55 PM
Opening day there was a play in one of the early innings (whatever was the first run scoring inning for the Cards) where it *appeared* that Brandon could have gotten to the ball, or at the very least, kept it from the outfield. My father and I both noticed it. Maybe there was no chance in the world of him getting to it but it sure looked like a dog of a play.

One play, that means nothing in the grand scheme of things but something is different about Brandon this year and frankly I think it's between his ears more than between the lines.

I think the problem is that nothing is different with Phillips this year, and it's beginning to look like it never will be.

fearofpopvol1
05-05-2010, 02:04 PM
He majorly hustled to 1B in the 1st inning today and slid into 1B to get an infield single, FWIW.

klw
05-05-2010, 02:15 PM
The Reds could always hire that Philly cop to stand near the on deck circle with his taser in case the mob decides Phillips has not gotten our of the batter's box fast enough.

bucksfan2
05-05-2010, 02:39 PM
He majorly hustled to 1B in the 1st inning today and slid into 1B to get an infield single, FWIW.

Did you expect him to do anything less? The issue isn't right now because it is front and center in BP's mind. Once its about a month removed I think we will see BP's hot dogging cost him again

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 03:15 PM
I honestly can't believe the reaction to Phillips. My lord. If you keep track of all the "hot dogging" that goes on with the Reds and you'll see it's not just Phillips. But by god, if Phillips slips ONCE it's because he's "stylin'" or some such reference. I think Dusty is over-reacting as well because he's red-assed from that loss. I watched the replay and what some of you holier than thou people call hot dogging is amazing. I have little doubt he would have been caught at 3rd if he was busting it like Rosales x 4.

As I write this Phillips just hit an opposite field HR, the Met's broadcast made note during the replay of Phillips tapping his head and raising his arms in celebration: "There's some styling that goes on today that I'm not a fan of". "Styling" Why is Phillips "styling" and others are "enthusiastic" or "pumped up"?

Also as I speak, Gomes goes deep and I want all you holier than thou baseball purists tell me Gomes was bustin his butt to make Momma Rosales proud on a fly ball to the same area as "THE PHILLIPS INCIDENT" last night?

flyer85
05-05-2010, 03:25 PM
The only player in recent memory besides BP who made a habit of going into a HR trot on what turned out to be a ball that stayed in the park was Jr.

CTA513
05-05-2010, 03:30 PM
I honestly can't believe the reaction to Phillips. My lord. If you keep track of all the "hot dogging" that goes on with the Reds and you'll see it's not just Phillips. But by god, if Phillips slips ONCE it's because he's "stylin'" or some such reference. I think Dusty is over-reacting as well because he's red-assed from that loss. I watched the replay and what some of you holier than thou people call hot dogging is amazing. I have little doubt he would have been caught at 3rd if he was busting it like Rosales x 4.

As I write this Phillips just hit an opposite field HR, the Met's broadcast made note during the replay of Phillips tapping his head and raising his arms in celebration: "There's some styling that goes on today that I'm not a fan of". "Styling" Why is Phillips "styling" and others are "enthusiastic" or "pumped up"?

Also as I speak, Gomes goes deep and I want all you holier than thou baseball purists tell me Gomes was bustin his butt to make Momma Rosales proud on a fly ball to the same area as "THE PHILLIPS INCIDENT" last night?


I think Baker is tried of seeing Phillips do some of the things he does.


More from that article from last season:

"We should have gotten some more in that first inning, big time," Baker fumed. "You have to hustle on that ball there or it's a totally different inning. That was a rally killer for us.

"We've repeated it many, many times. You have to play hard all the time. That was big, real big. We had them on the ropes and we killed the rally."

This wasn't the first time this season Baker has been unhappy with Phillips. In June at Kansas City, he ignored a take sign on a 3-0 and swung. It resulted in a rally-ending fly out.

"We've all talked to him until we're blue in the face," Baker said. "Evidently, this must have started long before I got here."


http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/baker_unhappy_with_phillips.html

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 03:32 PM
The only player in recent memory besides BP who made a habit of going into a HR trot on what turned out to be a ball that stayed in the park was Jr.

You call Phillips reaction last night a home run trot? Have you seen his home run trot? It is very distinctive and last night was not it.

flyer85
05-05-2010, 03:59 PM
You call Phillips reaction last night a home run trot? Have you seen his home run trot? It is very distinctive and last night was not it.call it what ever you want, he was jogging and it likely cost the team a run.

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 04:03 PM
Jonny Gomes is a "hotdog" I'd say. I've seen it for two years while he's flipping bats, showing "enthusiasm" (stylin?), and trotting along on fly balls whether they leave the yard or not.

CTA513
05-05-2010, 04:11 PM
Jonny Gomes is a "hotdog" I'd say. I've seen it for two years while he's flipping bats, showing "enthusiasm" (stylin?), and trotting along on fly balls whether they leave the yard or not.


Gomes wouldn't even be on the team if the Reds would have replaced the guy who used to play left.

flyer85
05-05-2010, 04:18 PM
Jonny Gomes is a "hotdog" I'd say. I've seen it for two years while he's flipping bats, showing "enthusiasm" (stylin?), and trotting along on fly balls whether they leave the yard or not.
you can do it and get away with it as long as you are not incorrect.

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 04:22 PM
you can do it and get away with it as long as you are not incorrect.

Is that right? Wow. So, "inexcusable" otherwise? Hmm.

flyer85
05-05-2010, 04:25 PM
Is that right? Wow. So, "inexcusable" otherwise? Hmm.
Yep. Because the line is drawn where the hot dogging starts costing the team runs. And BP has been guilty of that multiple occasions.

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 05:40 PM
So the routine fly ball that was dropped by an opponent earlier this year...the one Fay jumped right on...it was his fault, his hot dogging ways, that made him so different from 99% of baseball players who don't break their necks "running it out"?

CTA513
05-05-2010, 05:43 PM
So the routine fly ball that was dropped by an opponent earlier this year...the one Fay jumped right on...it was his fault, his hot dogging ways, that made him so different from 99% of baseball players who don't break their necks "running it out"?


His manager seems to have spoken to him more than a few times about hustling so its not like is just fans and sports writers making this stuff up.

dougdirt
05-05-2010, 05:59 PM
His manager seems to have spoken to him more than a few times about hustling so its not like is just fans and sports writers making this stuff up.

Sure, it does happen to him. Just like it happens to everyone. Joey Votto does it. Albert Pujols does it (all the time actually). People in this town just throw a fit over it more than other places because Pete "I cheated the Reds organization and fans out of so much by being selfish" Rose always hustled and this town fell in love with him. They now expect everyone to do it. That isn't how it works. Everyone short of Adam Rosales jogs on fly balls they know are going to be caught and a whole lot of people don't bust it out of the box on balls they think they hit out of the park.

reds44
05-05-2010, 06:09 PM
Sure, it does happen to him. Just like it happens to everyone. Joey Votto does it. Albert Pujols does it (all the time actually). People in this town just throw a fit over it more than other places because Pete "I cheated the Reds organization and fans out of so much by being selfish" Rose always hustled and this town fell in love with him. They now expect everyone to do it. That isn't how it works. Everyone short of Adam Rosales jogs on fly balls they know are going to be caught and a whole lot of people don't bust it out of the box on balls they think they hit out of the park.
This.

TheNext44
05-05-2010, 06:16 PM
The issue wtb Phillips is not that he jogs to first on fly balls. The issue is that he stops an stares everytime he thinks he's hit a homer. He did it again today, but today it went out, just barely. If it had not, he would have only gotten to second again.
He does it every time, and he's not enough of a power hitter to know that everytime he squares up on a pitch that it will be a homer.
Maybe it's Dusty's fault for trying to make him a cleanup hitter. But he can't keep doing it, get caught and then say "my bad" and have it be all right.
I think he has been given enough chances to prove that he's learned his lesson, and proven that he never will.

RedsManRick
05-05-2010, 06:33 PM
The issue wtb Phillips is not that he jogs to first on fly balls. The issue is that he stops an stares everytime he thinks he's hit a homer. He did it again today, but today it went out, just barely. If it had not, he would have only gotten to second again.
He does it every time, and he's not enough of a power hitter to know that everytime he squares up on a pitch that it will be a homer.
Maybe it's Dusty's fault for trying to make him a cleanup hitter. But he can't keep doing it, get caught and then say "my bad" and have it be all right.
I think he has been given enough chances to prove that he's learned his lesson, and proven that he never will.

Exactly. It's one thing to jog on a pop-up where you know you didn't get enough of it. It's another to act like every deep fly ball is a no-doubter and break in to a trot until and unless the ball falls in.

mdccclxix
05-05-2010, 07:02 PM
Most players pause to admire their shots and don't pickup speed until/unless it drops for a hit, happens nearly every single time. Phillips is no different. If you want to rag on Phillips as the poster boy for all "non-fundamental" players I don't think that's fair.

Phillips has aquired a reputation of silly mistakes, much of it on the bases. Over the last 2 seasons he's been TOO try hard in stretching plays, getting picked off, or caught stealing. This is in a climate of "must win" seasons with injuries and less talent than needed.

Add that in with the occasional mistake at the plate and now he's "uncoachable" or something. It just seems to magnify itself because he does try so hard. I think Dusty's right in saying he's an A student getting B's, and he may get the most out of BP. For many Reds fans, and for Fay, he's getting C-'s which is not true.

TheNext44
05-05-2010, 07:53 PM
Most players pause to admire their shots and don't pickup speed until/unless it drops for a hit, happens nearly every single time. Phillips is no different. If you want to rag on Phillips as the poster boy for all "non-fundamental" players I don't think that's fair.

Phillips has aquired a reputation of silly mistakes, much of it on the bases. Over the last 2 seasons he's been TOO try hard in stretching plays, getting picked off, or caught stealing. This is in a climate of "must win" seasons with injuries and less talent than needed.

Add that in with the occasional mistake at the plate and now he's "uncoachable" or something. It just seems to magnify itself because he does try so hard. I think Dusty's right in saying he's an A student getting B's, and he may get the most out of BP. For many Reds fans, and for Fay, he's getting C-'s which is not true.

Phillips is different in that he does every time he hits the ball far, and he just doesn't have the power to assume that every time he hits the ball far, it will be a homerun. Most guys, start running if there is any doubt, and only stop to look at the no doubters.

And for me, the biggest problem is that this has come up every season, and he keeps saying it won't happen again. You only get to say that once.

reds44
05-05-2010, 07:55 PM
What is he supposed to say, "i'm gonna stare at every ball I hit?"

He is what he is. He's a lot of flash, but he's also one of the best players we have. Just gotta take the good with the bad.

Mario-Rijo
05-05-2010, 08:15 PM
Sure, it does happen to him. Just like it happens to everyone. Joey Votto does it. Albert Pujols does it (all the time actually). People in this town just throw a fit over it more than other places because Pete "I cheated the Reds organization and fans out of so much by being selfish" Rose always hustled and this town fell in love with him. They now expect everyone to do it. That isn't how it works. Everyone short of Adam Rosales jogs on fly balls they know are going to be caught and a whole lot of people don't bust it out of the box on balls they think they hit out of the park.

IIRC Votto rounded the bases on his late inning HR last night like a track star same thing with Rolen.

traderumor
05-05-2010, 09:07 PM
I have seen Votto stand at home plate and watch a fence scraper. I laugh whenever Dusty says he talked to Brandon after one of these incidents. Either accept it or trade him, Reds. But please quit acting like the meatball that Cordero served up to Barajas wasn't the difference in the game and quit the if-dog-rabbit games.

Hoosier Red
05-05-2010, 09:53 PM
You know other's have mentioned that Brandon Phillips just doesn't look like the same old happy go-lucky Brandon Phillips and I think there's a parallel to another excellent athlete with some diva traits.

Just like Chad Ochocinco found out about 2 years ago, no not everyone likes a clown, especially when he's not producing, Phillips has found that not everyone likes his "act."
I think this has actually affected him in the field as he's sulking a bit. Just like Chad found out though, the way to people's hearts is through the play on the field. He can do all he wants so long as he produces. If he doesn't produce than all these negatives get magnified.

Ron Madden
05-06-2010, 04:38 AM
I like Brandon Phillips, he has a ton of talent and is a great defensive 2nd baseman.

It's just that I sometimes wonder about his Baseball IQ and if he would be worth 23 million dollars to this club over the next two years.

That's my humble and honest opinion, sue me.

bucksfan2
05-06-2010, 09:55 AM
Sure, it does happen to him. Just like it happens to everyone. Joey Votto does it. Albert Pujols does it (all the time actually). People in this town just throw a fit over it more than other places because Pete "I cheated the Reds organization and fans out of so much by being selfish" Rose always hustled and this town fell in love with him. They now expect everyone to do it. That isn't how it works. Everyone short of Adam Rosales jogs on fly balls they know are going to be caught and a whole lot of people don't bust it out of the box on balls they think they hit out of the park.

I think Rosales looks like a clown running around the bases like he does. And I do think that the Pete Rose stereotype has hurt the perception of many good baseball players in this town.

That said what Phillips does is unacceptable. I could live with it once or twice but with Phillips it happens all the time. It happened Tuesday and then Wednesday after getting talked to. Brandon has the ability to be a great player but his antics prevent that from happening. Its why Cleveland gave up on him prematurely and its what we are seeing here in Cincinnati.

Is it too much for fans to ask a player makes the most of his abilities? Is it too much for a fan to expect BP to delay his HR trot until the ball clears the wall? Heck your not even to 1st base by the time most balls clear the wall. Is it too much to ask for Phillips to play like the same kid who was playing for his baseball life instead of the Phillips who is playing like a NFL WR?

Ltlabner
05-06-2010, 10:19 AM
Actually I think Dusty put it fairly well. An "A" student giving a "B" performance.

I say that fully acknowledging that I'm basing my opinion on a couple of events that may or may not be a fair representation of his actual mindset.

RFS62
05-06-2010, 10:55 AM
Some players actions on the field scream "look at me, look at me". I prefer the Scott Rolen approach, myself.

Win the game first. Play smart on every play. Never let your ego cost you a base or your team a run.

Doesn't seem very complicated.

kpresidente
05-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Who cares about all this stuff? In the end if his numbers are good, that's all that matters. "Good guys", whatever that is, doesn't translate into wins. Give me guys that can play, and BP can play.

RANDY IN INDY
05-06-2010, 11:07 AM
Some players actions on the field scream "look at me, look at me". I prefer the Scott Rolen approach, myself.

Win the game first. Play smart on every play. Never let your ego cost you a base or your team a run.

Doesn't seem very complicated.

:beerme:That is the way a veteran team leader should play the game. You cannot proclaim yourself a leader. Your actions and habits, before and during the game, will establish that position.

RFS62
05-06-2010, 11:12 AM
:beerme:That is the way a veteran team leader should play the game. You cannot proclaim yourself a leader. Your actions and habits, before and during the game, will establish that position.



Yep. And every leader isn't the same. Some are "rah-rah", some are quite.

Henry Aaron was asked once why he wasn't more vocal.

He said "I let my bat do the talking".

Cooper
05-06-2010, 11:28 AM
When Brandon was drafted he reported he didn't know Montreal had a team (of course this is when they had a team).

Ltlabner
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
Is tasering an option?

BRM
05-06-2010, 11:38 AM
Is tasering an option?

Never. Perhaps a timeout?

lollipopcurve
05-06-2010, 11:40 AM
It's a strength of Baker to handle a personality like Phillips. Let Baker talk to him, and let Brandon play.

The Cincy beat guys vulture BP -- they don't like him, and they'll magnify his faults. I don't make their grudges mine.

membengal
05-06-2010, 11:43 AM
How do solve a problem like Brandon?

I am thinking a tour as the governess to six vocally talented children in Austria. Singing not optional.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 12:13 PM
It's a strength of Baker to handle a personality like Phillips. Let Baker talk to him, and let Brandon play.


Yes, but Dusty has talked to him about this before and it still happens. Dusty even sat him down for a game after a similar incident but it still happens.

However, this doesn't make him a bad person or a bad player. We're not talking about running out ground balls to 2nd base. We're talking about fly balls to the OF. He can always break out his home run trot once he sees it's going to clear the wall. Brandon's always talking about being a leader but that's not what leaders do.

RANDY IN INDY
05-06-2010, 12:14 PM
Phillips does so many things well. He is a very talented individual. He really doesn't have to put on the "theatrics" to be noticed. At one time, there was a "code," a way to act and play on the field that was passed down from veteran leaders. The younger players looked to those players for guidance in the game. The code, and respect for that code, has virtually disappeared. Guys like Rolen were once the norm. Not anymore. The "look at me" attitude has replaced it.

RANDY IN INDY
05-06-2010, 12:26 PM
The really sad thing about the "look at me" attitude that is prevalent today is that it filters down into the ranks of the younger kids. They emulate what they see. We had a 12 year old stand between home and first and watch the ball as he hit a homerun. It took nearly 2 minutes for him to get around the bases, and as he crossed the plate, he stared at our pitcher. It was very ugly, and I felt really bad for the kid and his coaches. They didn't seem to mind. After the inning, I went out to coach first base and the umpire walked up to me and said, "That was very disappointing, wasn't it?" I just shook my head.

Nasty_Boy
05-06-2010, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure that I agree with the "filter down" assessment, whether you're talking about major leaguers or little leaguers...IMO its not up to the players hold others accountable, its up to the manager. When playing college ball, and playing at other levels, I was never a fan of guys that were so called leaders. You played hard because it was the right thing to do and you knew that if you didn't it would show and you would find yourself watching. Dusty wants to win and he knows BP is a player he needs, so he's not going to sit him although he should. But IMO, coaches not teammates are the people that need to enforce the style of play.

Also, I have MLB Network on and I just seen the highlights from yesterdays game and I couldn't be more disgusted with BP. Forget not running out of the box, his actions going around 1st base was basically like giving the finger to Dusty and the media... even though that's an out in just about every other park. BP is a guy that is worried about how he looks and how much "dap" he gets for looking so cool on the field. The Reds need him and they need his talent, but his attitude is that of an NFL WR... He's a diva and is only going to play hard when he thinks it benefits him to do so!

RANDY IN INDY
05-06-2010, 12:50 PM
Totally agree with the accountability issue, but it not only filters down to the kids, but to the folks that are in charge of them.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Also, I have MLB Network on and I just seen the highlights from yesterdays game and I couldn't be more disgusted with BP. Forget not running out of the box, his actions going around 1st base was basically like giving the finger to Dusty and the media... even though that's an out in just about every other park.


I missed that. What did he do?

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 12:57 PM
I think Rosales looks like a clown running around the bases like he does. And I do think that the Pete Rose stereotype has hurt the perception of many good baseball players in this town.

That said what Phillips does is unacceptable. I could live with it once or twice but with Phillips it happens all the time. It happened Tuesday and then Wednesday after getting talked to. Brandon has the ability to be a great player but his antics prevent that from happening. Its why Cleveland gave up on him prematurely and its what we are seeing here in Cincinnati.

Is it too much for fans to ask a player makes the most of his abilities? Is it too much for a fan to expect BP to delay his HR trot until the ball clears the wall? Heck your not even to 1st base by the time most balls clear the wall. Is it too much to ask for Phillips to play like the same kid who was playing for his baseball life instead of the Phillips who is playing like a NFL WR?

Cleveland gave up on him because he was out of options and had hit .206/.246/.310 for them in the majors in 432 at bats.

As for asking to make the most of ones abilities, no, it isn't. And I do think its a bit much to throw a fit when a guy doesn't run out a ball, whether its a groundball to short, a weak fly to right or a 390 foot double off the wall, when nearly everyone does it. Where are all of the people at when Jonny Gomes does it on every fly ball he hits? He stops his swing and stares at it. Every time. I don't see threads devoted to him about it.

Sure, it would be great if every player ran as hard as they could on every ball they put in play. But it just doesn't happen with 99% of the players in the game. I venture that even 50-75% of the guys in baseball go into a jog on balls they think they got all of but didn't hit 450 feet.

Roy Tucker
05-06-2010, 01:08 PM
Its just how BP is. Like many have said, he's a good player and I'm glad the Reds have him. He just does a few things every so often that drives people (including me) nuts.

The problem with hustle is that it has to be ingrained in the way you play. An unthinking habit instilled from when you first starting playing. If you have to think about it and remember to do it, at some time you're going to forget and at some time its going to make you look bad when you forget.

Nasty_Boy
05-06-2010, 01:14 PM
I missed that. What did he do?

Well, after he stared down his pop fly like he hit the thing 450 ft... He started his lil sideways trot and did his big wide clap, then he started patting himself on the helmet... It was the last thing he should have been doing after the last few days, IMO. It looked classless and arrogant. It was the video from the Mets feed, so I don't know if its available online or not.

Nasty_Boy
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
I don't mind a guy taking a look at a clear no doubter, and I don't mind a guy pulling up on routine grounder to the 2nd baseman. I understand that over the course of 162 that guys are going to wear down, and I was never a big fan of Ryan Freel's fake hustle. My problem is when he's pulling a look at me instead of playing hard. He played with hustle, fire, and passion when the Reds acquired him from Cleveland because he knew he was given a chance to finally stick and to rehab his image. He did that, but now that he's established and getting paid, he wants fame and recognition. He wants to hear his name with Chase Utley and Robbie Cano... He wants the All-Star games and the Gold Gloves... There's nothing wrong with those things, but he's forgot how he played and how he acted when he was fighting with Tony Womack for the 2B job for the Cincinnati Reds.

lollipopcurve
05-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Yes, but Dusty has talked to him about this before and it still happens. Dusty even sat him down for a game after a similar incident but it still happens.

True. He's got to keep sending the message.


However, this doesn't make him a bad person or a bad player. We're not talking about running out ground balls to 2nd base. We're talking about fly balls to the OF. He can always break out his home run trot once he sees it's going to clear the wall. Brandon's always talking about being a leader but that's not what leaders do.

Agree. The team has some real leaders now, so it's not as much of a concern. But let's not pretend Phillips is a major distraction. He loafs on occasion, but he doesn't pop off in the media and he plays every day. Last year he played hurt a lot. There are some positive "intangibles" in there, too, if you look at it objectively.

His offenses are chronic, but they're relatively minor. And in the big picture of what he brings to the team, the guy remains a bonafide asset.

OnBaseMachine
05-06-2010, 02:34 PM
Dusty on Phillips's home run yesterday:

ĖBaker noticed that Brandon Phillips didnít run out of the box in his home run in the sixth. ďI guess Iím going to have to talk to him again. . . Iíve done more than talk to him.Ē

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/05/postgame-notes/

Degenerate39
05-06-2010, 03:01 PM
Dusty on Phillips's home run yesterday:

ĖBaker noticed that Brandon Phillips didnít run out of the box in his home run in the sixth. ďI guess Iím going to have to talk to him again. . . Iíve done more than talk to him.Ē

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/05/postgame-notes/

What's that suppose to mean?

TRF
05-06-2010, 03:05 PM
What's that suppose to mean?

out to the tool shed.

RedsManRick
05-06-2010, 03:09 PM
What's that suppose to mean?

http://www.djsolution.de/images/en4ce/paddel.gif

Chip R
05-06-2010, 03:09 PM
What's that suppose to mean?


Maybe he spanked him. :eek:

Mario-Rijo
05-06-2010, 03:28 PM
Cleveland gave up on him because he was out of options and had hit .206/.246/.310 for them in the majors in 432 at bats.

As for asking to make the most of ones abilities, no, it isn't. And I do think its a bit much to throw a fit when a guy doesn't run out a ball, whether its a groundball to short, a weak fly to right or a 390 foot double off the wall, when nearly everyone does it. Where are all of the people at when Jonny Gomes does it on every fly ball he hits? He stops his swing and stares at it. Every time. I don't see threads devoted to him about it.

Sure, it would be great if every player ran as hard as they could on every ball they put in play. But it just doesn't happen with 99% of the players in the game. I venture that even 50-75% of the guys in baseball go into a jog on balls they think they got all of but didn't hit 450 feet.

Too me it's just more noticeable when BP does it, it isn't just a stare but a whole "thing". He does it at the plate, he does it on the bases, he does it in the field. There is a big difference between Brandons antics and everyone else's. Brandon get picked off because Brandons head isn't in the game, Rolen (just as an example) gets picked off because he gets outplayed. And then he pouts when he is discussed. He doesn't get that we don't care if everyone else in the league is doing it we are trying to win with what we have and in order for that to happen we must take advantage of every opportunity. Winners take the extra base they don't come up 1 base short. And it has not a darn thing to do with Pete Rose which is such a tired strawman. Every coach teaches at the little league level or did in my day anyway.

CTA513
05-06-2010, 03:29 PM
Well, after he stared down his pop fly like he hit the thing 450 ft... He started his lil sideways trot and did his big wide clap, then he started patting himself on the helmet... It was the last thing he should have been doing after the last few days, IMO. It looked classless and arrogant. It was the video from the Mets feed, so I don't know if its available online or not.

Thats what he usually does when he homers.
I don't know if they still do it, but I've heard the Cardinals announcers take jabs at him in the past for his sideways trot.

Big Klu
05-06-2010, 03:36 PM
What's that suppose to mean?

It means Dusty has fined him.

TheNext44
05-06-2010, 03:38 PM
Cleveland gave up on him because he was out of options and had hit .206/.246/.310 for them in the majors in 432 at bats.

As for asking to make the most of ones abilities, no, it isn't. And I do think its a bit much to throw a fit when a guy doesn't run out a ball, whether its a groundball to short, a weak fly to right or a 390 foot double off the wall, when nearly everyone does it. Where are all of the people at when Jonny Gomes does it on every fly ball he hits? He stops his swing and stares at it. Every time. I don't see threads devoted to him about it.



When Gomes gets a hold of one, everyone in the ballpark knows it's gone. With Phillips, it's about 50-50. If Phillips had Gomes' power, let him stare all he wants.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 03:41 PM
When Gomes gets a hold of one, everyone in the ballpark knows it's gone. With Phillips, it's about 50-50. If Phillips had Gomes' power, let him stare all he wants.


Well, neither of them should do it.

TheNext44
05-06-2010, 03:51 PM
Well, neither of them should do it.

Actually, I don't mind guys starring at no doubters, as long as they are willing to be brushed back in their next AB.

Personally, I would stare if I hit one, but that's only because I would be in shock, and know that I would never hit another one ever again. :)

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 03:52 PM
Thats what he usually does when he homers.
I don't know if they still do it, but I've heard the Cardinals announcers take jabs at him in the past for his sideways trot.

I heard somewhere (probably during the Braves series since his family goes to those games) that the helmet grab (sideways walk) is a gesture to his buddies back in Georgia. Either that or to a family member.

If there are touchdown celebrations, why can't there be home run celebrations too? Understandbly it's a different game, but if the pitchers want to cry foul about it, they can always put one under his chin in the next AB.

To weigh in on the hustling; Phillips has done this throughout his time in Cincy and he did it in Cleveland. This is his understanding of how "he thinks" the game should be played. To some, its a turn off. To others, it's entertainment. "Flash" Phillips just has to play his way with a little swagger. Ocho knows what I'm talking about.

The funny part is the same people that cry foul when he's not hustling out of the box are often the first to praise him when he steals two bases on one play.

If anything, its overblown by the media.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 03:59 PM
The funny part is the same people that cry foul when he's not hustling out of the box are often the first to praise him when he steals two bases on one play.


So people who criticize him for not hustling shouldn't praise him for stealing two bases on the same play a.k.a. hustling? :confused:

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 04:06 PM
So people who criticize him for not hustling shouldn't praise him for stealing two bases on the same play a.k.a. hustling? :confused:

Not be the first ones to do so, yes. I don't consider it hustling though. That word got a larger than life name for itself in the 70's.

Phillips approach to the game is have fun and take risks. Often, he gets badly burned for having fun. I honestly don't see how stealing two bases or sliding at first base is that much different then watching a homerun ball or being non chalant and getting picked at 1st. He plays the cool guy, let's have fun mentality.

Believe it or not, there are baseball players that approach the game this way. There is no written rule that says everyone needs to squeeze the life out of the game of baseball like Pete Rose did.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 04:31 PM
Not be the first ones to do so, yes. I don't consider it hustling though. That word got a larger than life name for itself in the 70's.

Phillips approach to the game is have fun and take risks. Often, he gets badly burned for having fun. I honestly don't see how stealing two bases or sliding at first base is that much different then watching a homerun ball or being non chalant and getting picked at 1st. He plays the cool guy, let's have fun mentality.

Believe it or not, there are baseball players that approach the game this way. There is no written rule that says everyone needs to squeeze the life out of the game of baseball like Pete Rose did.

I think there is a vast difference in your examples. In the former examples, he's getting every base he's entitled to and he's helping the team. That's how the game is supposed to be played. When he gets picked off 1st because he's not paying attention, he's hurting the team. Sure, he may have looked cool on Wednesday night when he played that triple into a double but he cost the Reds the game. That's unacceptable.

I don't care if Brandon crawls out to 2nd base and back to the dugout. Nor do I care if he walks to 1st base like Fred Sanford when he gets a base on balls. And I don't care if he wears his pants down to the dirt as long as they don't trip him up. I do want to see an honest effort out there. I'm not expecting him to be the second coming of Pete Rose or Adam Rosales. I just want to see him do his best.

I think Brandon wouldn't pull this stuff if he were on a team that was more successful and had veteran leadership. I'm fairly certain Derek Jeter wouldn't put up with his shenanigans.

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 04:49 PM
When Gomes gets a hold of one, everyone in the ballpark knows it's gone. With Phillips, it's about 50-50. If Phillips had Gomes' power, let him stare all he wants.

Gomes stared at a 250 foot fly ball the other day. Literally, the left fielder came in to catch the ball. Where was the outrage?

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 04:53 PM
I think there is a vast difference in your examples. In the former examples, he's getting every base he's entitled to and he's helping the team. That's how the game is supposed to be played. When he gets picked off 1st because he's not paying attention, he's hurting the team. Sure, he may have looked cool on Wednesday night when he played that triple into a double but he cost the Reds the game. That's unacceptable.

I don't care if Brandon crawls out to 2nd base and back to the dugout. Nor do I care if he walks to 1st base like Fred Sanford when he gets a base on balls. And I don't care if he wears his pants down to the dirt as long as they don't trip him up. I do want to see an honest effort out there. I'm not expecting him to be the second coming of Pete Rose or Adam Rosales. I just want to see him do his best.

I think Brandon wouldn't pull this stuff if he were on a team that was more successful and had veteran leadership. I'm fairly certain Derek Jeter wouldn't put up with his shenanigans.

As a former teacher and baseball coach for at-risk youth, I can tell you its not necessarily a choice. Perception is key and once you cross that line into "hot dog" or "flashy" style. Your there. That is how he plays the game of baseball. I would imagine he's the same way during Subway commercials and playing parcheezy with Grandma. Work is imitating life.

I don't disagree with you, in the sense that I wish Phillips cultured more of his talent. He bugs me tremendously on his throws to second base. However, he is what he is. It's not as simple as flipping on a switch or getting a tongue lashing from Dusty. Or even a fine. He is a fun loving guy; often having fun gets in the way of good business practices.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Gomes stared at a 250 foot fly ball the other day. Literally, the left fielder came in to catch the ball. Where was the outrage?

There isn't because it isn't mentioned on the blogosphere or the newspapers.

If the leftfielder misses the ball and they still get Gomes at 1st, its everywhere.

TheNext44
05-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Gomes stared at a 250 foot fly ball the other day. Literally, the left fielder came in to catch the ball. Where was the outrage?

If he keeps doing that, there will be, or at least should be. You're right for calling out the double standard.

But again, my main point is that Phillips never learns. He keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, even when he is lectured about it, or even benched for it. It's time to cut the cord.

CTA513
05-06-2010, 04:58 PM
Gomes stared at a 250 foot fly ball the other day. Literally, the left fielder came in to catch the ball. Where was the outrage?

I would be fine with cutting him.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 05:03 PM
If he keeps doing that, there will be, or at least should be. You're right for calling out the double standard.

But again, my main point is that Phillips never learns. He keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, even when he is lectured about it, or even benched for it. It's time to cut the cord.

I have the scissors ready for Gomes. His endless impatience at the plate is worlds worse to me than Brandon's perceived lack of hustle.

membengal
05-06-2010, 05:12 PM
With apologies to Rodgers. And Hammerstein while I am at it.


He hits a ball and watches it fly
His jogging makes Dusty cry
He waltzes on his way to first
And whistles on the paths
And underneath his hat
He has ipod headphones in his ears (prob not)
I even heard him singing in the clubhouse

He's often late to first
And his penitence is the worst
He's sometimes late to the plate
And swings from the heels
I hate to have to say it
But I very firmly feel
Brandon's not an asset to the Redlegs

But wait, I'd like to say a word in his behalf
Brandon makes me laugh
(and his glovework is really quite superb)

How do you solve a problem like Brandon?
How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Brandon?
A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown!

bucksfan2
05-06-2010, 05:14 PM
I think Brandon wouldn't pull this stuff if he were on a team that was more successful and had veteran leadership. I'm fairly certain Derek Jeter wouldn't put up with his shenanigans.

Its a good point and to be honest I don't know the answer. Part of me thinks the only way you are going to change his attitude is by taking playing time away. Its a shame because I think the mental aspect of his game is whats holding him back. Its why he is a nice 2b instead of a great 2b.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 05:18 PM
With apologies to Rodgers. And Hammerstein while I am at it.

The IPOD part made me LOL.

Damn those kids and those IPODS :laugh:

reds44
05-06-2010, 05:25 PM
Look, everybody does this all the time. Everybody. 99% of major leaguers don't run out routine flyouts and pose on balls that don't end up leaving. Phillips got the wrap now, and everytime he does it, it will get blown out of proportion. As soon as it happend, I knew what was going to happen.

People get labeled something as it sticks, whether or not it's fair.

Chip R
05-06-2010, 05:26 PM
Its a good point and to be honest I don't know the answer. Part of me thinks the only way you are going to change his attitude is by taking playing time away. Its a shame because I think the mental aspect of his game is whats holding him back. Its why he is a nice 2b instead of a great 2b.


I agree. The problem is his backup is Miguel Cairo.

Will M
05-06-2010, 05:35 PM
I agree. The problem is his backup is Miguel Cairo.

Janish?

Chip R
05-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Janish?

Has he ever played 2nd?

Edit: He played 1 game at 2nd in LOU 2 years ago and about a dozen for Chattanooga 3 years ago.

TheNext44
05-06-2010, 05:40 PM
With apologies to Rodgers. And Hammerstein while I am at it.

That's awesome.

Do you take requests? Maybe a Reds version of "A Few Of My Favorite Things?"

Ltlabner
05-06-2010, 05:48 PM
That's awesome.

Do you take requests? Maybe a Reds version of "A Few Of My Favorite Things?"

Strikeouts on three swings and pop flies to short right...........

membengal
05-06-2010, 05:59 PM
...When the first pitch swings,
make you slap your forehead 'til it stings,
when you're feeling bad,
simply remember your favorite things,
and then it won't sting, so, bad!

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 06:01 PM
I think we found Gomes new batting intro music. :thumbup:

TheNext44
05-06-2010, 07:08 PM
Strikeouts on three swings and pop flies to short right...........


...When the first pitch swings,
make you slap your forehead 'til it stings,
when you're feeling bad,
simply remember your favorite things,
and then it won't sting, so, bad!

Brandon The Musical!

I can see it now!

Thx guys. :thumbup:

RFS62
05-06-2010, 07:39 PM
I don't think it matters as much what we think as it does what his peers think.

Whatever you think of Dusty, his sensibilities on "the right way to play the game" are time honored and accepted across the board in mlb, IMO. We don't need to invoke the spirit of Pete Rose on this one.

I can't imagine a situation where his behavior helps us. I can imagine plenty of situations where it would cause either himself or one of his teammates to get plunked.

Grow up, Brandon

wally post
05-06-2010, 07:49 PM
All these guys make a WHOLE LOT of money - and even though they might be veterans, they are still young, at least from my perspective. Yes, clearly Brandon needs to reel it all in; the showboating, the bad base running, the reckless swings... but I wonder how far he will fall before he realizes that (if ever...) What can we do? nothing. I'm certain that Walt will trade any piece to improve the team, so 'nuff said.

RANDY IN INDY
05-06-2010, 08:17 PM
I don't think it matters as much what we think as it does what his peers think.

Whatever you think of Dusty, his sensibilities on "the right way to play the game" are time honored and accepted across the board in mlb, IMO. We don't need to invoke the spirit of Pete Rose on this one.

I can't imagine a situation where his behavior helps us. I can imagine plenty of situations where it would cause either himself or one of his teammates to get plunked.

Grow up, Brandon

Well said.

Nasty_Boy
05-07-2010, 11:32 AM
For the record I think Gomes looks like an idiot when he takes his monster hack and stares down him routine flyball to LF. And I really don't mind even BP taking a look at a bomb, but the HR on Wed was a wallscraper and I really have never seen him act like on a HR. I watched it again and again and it was like he saluted the ball once it left the yard. It struck me as a moment for him to let everyone know that he's the man and for people to back off. I like BP as a player and I don't mind some flash, but he's struggling at the plate and he's got people on his back so he's going to let people know when he does something good.

I really hate the conversation about hustle... Because you don't know if guys are injured or if they really think they are hustling. BPs seems to get people on his back because of the times when he shows off and things don't end up working out like he had planned.

And one last note, about the BP and Rolen comments regarding getting picked off. This is where I can't defend BP... In Houston, Brandon was picked off. When he got to the dugout he noticed the camera was on him and he smirked and waved. I don't know what to make of that or what he was thinking, but I guarantee he would be the only guy on that team that would do such a thing after getting picked off.

RedsManRick
05-07-2010, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure why this has to be complicated. Dusty simply has to say this and then follow up on it.

"Any guy who stares at a batted ball instead of busting tail down the 1B line is not getting off the bench the next day. And when the media ask why you're not playing, I plan on telling the truth."

Fight fire with fire and hit those guys where it hurts, their ego. Let's see a hot dog handles his teammates and the press after riding the pine because he couldn't be bothered enough to run. I did noticed that Votto busted it around the bats during his HR the other night; it was almost Rosalesesque.

RANDY IN INDY
05-07-2010, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure why this has to be complicated. Dusty simply has to say this and then follow up on it.

"Any guy who stares at a batted ball instead of busting tail down the 1B line is not getting off the bench the next day. And when the media ask why you're not playing, I plan on telling the truth."

Fight fire with fire and hit those guys where it hurts, their ego. Let's see a hot dog handles his teammates and the press after riding the pine because he couldn't be bothered enough to run. I did noticed that Votto busted it around the bats during his HR the other night; it was almost Rosalesesque.
:beerme:

traderumor
05-07-2010, 10:44 PM
I've grown tired of Brandon's game and antics. Package him with Homer. Sold to the first taker, yard sale prices.

kpresidente
05-08-2010, 05:22 PM
Gomes stared at a 250 foot fly ball the other day. Literally, the left fielder came in to catch the ball. Where was the outrage?

It's different when somebody who looks like Gomes does it.

traderumor
05-09-2010, 09:52 AM
I've grown tired of Brandon's game and antics. Package him with Homer. Sold to the first taker, yard sale prices.I love Brandon Phillips. Let's extend him. When Brandon bad, he bad. When Brandon good, he good. :devil: