PDA

View Full Version : 4-28-10 Reds v Astros



Pages : [1] 2

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Drew Stubbs 8
Brandon Phillips 4
Joey Votto 3
Scott Rolen 5
Jay Bruce 9
Orlando Cabrera 6
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Mike Leake 1

forfreelin04
04-28-2010, 04:03 PM
Drew Stubbs 8
Brandon Phillips 4
Joey Votto 3
Scott Rolen 5
Jay Bruce 9
Orlando Cabrera 6
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Mike Leake 1

Laynce Nix is a terror to Felipe Paulino

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/p-pvb.cgi?n1=paulife01#choice=&bats=&minPA2=0&year_game=career&opp_id=&orderby=PA&orderbyb=Name&minPA=0&orderbydir=DESC&orderbydirb=ASC&n1=paulife01&as=pitcher

Batting .556 against him.

Bruce has 2 homers and Votto one.

Kudos to Dusty for getting Nix in the lineup tonight :beerme:

forfreelin04
04-28-2010, 04:11 PM
Can one make the argument that the two out machines at the top of the lineup actually helps the team since their doing it together instead of in the middle of a productive inning?

cincy09
04-28-2010, 05:02 PM
Can one make the argument that the two out machines at the top of the lineup actually helps the team since their doing it together instead of in the middle of a productive inning?

Not sure if I should laugh or cry :confused:

Slyder
04-28-2010, 05:15 PM
Laynce Nix is a terror to Felipe Paulino

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/p-pvb.cgi?n1=paulife01#choice=&bats=&minPA2=0&year_game=career&opp_id=&orderby=PA&orderbyb=Name&minPA=0&orderbydir=DESC&orderbydirb=ASC&n1=paulife01&as=pitcher

Batting .556 against him.

Bruce has 2 homers and Votto one.

Kudos to Dusty for getting Nix in the lineup tonight :beerme:

Drew Stubbs 8
Brandon Phillips 4
Joey Votto 3
Scott Rolen 5
Jay Bruce 9
Orlando Cabrera 6
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Mike Leake 1

Unless you wanna play the small sample size Nix at 2 in the order. :thumbup: Glad to see Dusty giving this more than 1 day trial.

Chip R
04-28-2010, 05:33 PM
Drew Stubbs 8
Brandon Phillips 4
Joey Votto 3
Scott Rolen 5
Jay Bruce 9
Orlando Cabrera 6
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Mike Leake 1

Unless you wanna play the small sample size Nix at 2 in the order. :thumbup: Glad to see Dusty giving this more than 1 day trial.


We won last night, dude. If we lost, it would have been vindication of Dusty's same old lineup.

Edd Roush
04-28-2010, 05:52 PM
My biggest beef with this line-up is no Hanigan. The kid is on a tear right now and should be batting at the top of the line-up. I honestly think I'd go,

Hanigan
Rolen
Votto
Bruce
Nix
Phillips
Cabrera
Stubbs

I know Dusty would never buy it, but I think it would be effective.

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 05:53 PM
My 6-year-old daughter and I will be heading out shortly for Minute Maid. Hopefully she'll snag a few autographs during BP. Fantastic seats for tonight's game, row 1 seats 1&2 right next to the Reds dugout...best seats I've ever had at a game.

Can't wait to see Leake. Gorgeous weather here today...I'd be shocked if they closed the roof.

Whoever does the PBP...bring us some good luck. :beerme:

_Sir_Charles_
04-28-2010, 05:54 PM
My biggest beef with this line-up is no Hanigan. The kid is on a tear right now and should be batting at the top of the line-up. I honestly think I'd go,

Hanigan
Rolen
Votto
Bruce
Nix
Phillips
Cabrera
Stubbs

I know Dusty would never buy it, but I think it would be effective.

I'm fully on board with THIS lineup. :O) Nix gets a pass due to his Paulino mastery. Otherwise...a thing of beauty.

nate
04-28-2010, 07:12 PM
My biggest beef with this line-up is no Hanigan. The kid is on a tear right now and should be batting at the top of the line-up. I honestly think I'd go,

Hanigan
Rolen
Votto
Bruce
Nix
Phillips
Cabrera
Stubbs

I know Dusty would never buy it, but I think it would be effective.

I'd hit Nix lower but I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

:cool:

Will M
04-28-2010, 08:01 PM
Drew Stubbs 8
Brandon Phillips 4
Joey Votto 3
Scott Rolen 5
Jay Bruce 9
Orlando Cabrera 6
Laynce Nix 7
Ramon Hernandez 2
Mike Leake 1

where to begin?
1. i have no problem giving Nix some starts against RHP. However, if Nix is going to play LF then DICKERSON should be in CF.
2. Hanigan > Hernandez
3. Janish > Cabrera

My lineup would have been:
8 Dickerson (L)
2 Hanigan
3 Votto (L)
5 Rolen
9 Bruce (L)
4 Phillips
7 Nix (L)
6 Janish
1 Leake

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 08:26 PM
My 6-year-old daughter and I will be heading out shortly for Minute Maid. Hopefully she'll snag a few autographs during BP. Fantastic seats for tonight's game, row 1 seats 1&2 right next to the Reds dugout...best seats I've ever had at a game.

Can't wait to see Leake. Gorgeous weather here today...I'd be shocked if they closed the roof.

Whoever does the PBP...bring us some good luck. :beerme:

Have fun. We'll look for you and your daughter on TV. :)

Edd Roush
04-28-2010, 08:38 PM
where to begin?
1. i have no problem giving Nix some starts against RHP. However, if Nix is going to play LF then DICKERSON should be in CF.
2. Hanigan > Hernandez
3. Janish > Cabrera

My lineup would have been:
8 Dickerson (L)
2 Hanigan
3 Votto (L)
5 Rolen
9 Bruce (L)
4 Phillips
7 Nix (L)
6 Janish
1 Leake

I think I like your line-up better than mine :beerme:

nate
04-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Chat is open!

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Stubbs singles to start the game, and then steals second.

VR
04-28-2010, 09:09 PM
Good start. Stubbs single, stolen base. Quintero is an above average thrower back there too.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:10 PM
Phillips walks. Votto stunned to see two of his teammates standing on the bases as he comes to the plate.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:11 PM
Votto grounds out, runners advance. Phillips amazed he wasn't picked off during that at bat.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:13 PM
Small Ball time as Rolen grounds out, scoring Stubbs. Phillips advances to third. Reds 1 Astros 0.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Bruce flies out to end the inning.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 09:18 PM
Keppinger says "take that, former team that gave up on me."

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 09:19 PM
Eassssssy inning for Leake.

K
Single
DP

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:19 PM
Leake strikes out Bourne to start the bottom of the first.
Country Kepp singles, Carlos Lee grounds into double play.

Nice to have a sinker ball pitcher.

10 pitches for Leake. Rest of starting staff in disbelief!

End of 1: Reds 1 Astros 0

nate
04-28-2010, 09:20 PM
Nice inning for Leake.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:28 PM
O Cab flies out,
Nix strikes out,
Hernandez walks,
Mike Leake strikes out swinging.

Paulino at 40 pitches.

Reds 1 Astros 0 after 1 and 1/2.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:34 PM
I like this Leake character.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 09:35 PM
Another eaasssy inning for Leake.

Love the way he walks off the mound... like it's no big deal.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:35 PM
I like this Leake character.
His backstory's a bit broad but I'm digging the 'quietly dominating' storyline.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:35 PM
Berkman grounds out,
Feliz grounds out,
Pence strikes out,

Reds 1 Astros 0 after 2.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:36 PM
That was...interesting Astros defense.

VR
04-28-2010, 09:36 PM
I like this Leake character.

He bores me. Quick worker, in control, great defense, good stick. That's not the standard for a Reds starter that we're used to.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:38 PM
BP singles. I'm liking BP the #2 hitter.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:40 PM
2-0 Reds off a Votto...double and advance to 3rd?

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 09:41 PM
Finally getting some breaks. Phillips scores and Votto on third--one out.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:41 PM
I'm not sure if that was fair, but I'll take it.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:41 PM
Stubbs flies out,
Phillips singles,
pickoff attempt, Phillips makes it back.
another pickoff attempt, someone has been watching game film,
Votto triples 2-0 Reds

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 09:42 PM
Astros ballboy was soooo excited to be part of today's game. Now, not so much.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure if that was fair, but I'll take it.Yep, finally getting some breaks...

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:42 PM
Rolen lines out, 2 out.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure if that was fair, but I'll take it.

Yea, the ump had his back turned as he was trying not to get hit by the ball as it passed over the base.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Jay Bruce flies out to end the inning, Reds 2 Astros 0.

Paulino has tossed the ball 54 pitches so far through 3 innings.

The Astros bullpen is shaky, so if you can chase Paulino, it's good.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:46 PM
Man, Leake's fastball moves like some sliders.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:47 PM
Leake living large.

Scrap Irony
04-28-2010, 09:47 PM
Speaking of working quickly, I've never understood why pitchers don't work, like Leake and Browning, almost as soon as they get the ball. I don't think I've ever seen a quick worker that's a poor pitcher. Almost always, they have better control and better defense behind them.

Leake just threw his fastest ball of the night-- 92.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 09:48 PM
Leake faces the minimum through 3 innings.

Not bad

forfreelin04
04-28-2010, 09:48 PM
Man I really wish leake was in aaa :D

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:48 PM
Kaz Matsui flies out.
Quintero flies out.
Paulino strikes out.

Leake with 41 pitches after 3.

Reds 2 Astros 0

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:49 PM
Speaking of working quickly, I've never understood why pitchers don't work, like Leake and Browning, almost as soon as they get the ball. I don't think I've ever seen a quick worker that's a poor pitcher. Almost always, they have better control and better defense behind them.

I have to think it keeps the hitter off balance when you work at a different speed than most pitchers. Baseball players are creatures of habit -- when you're giving them less time in the box to go through their "mental checklist" or whatever is they do, it has to upset the applecart a little bit.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:49 PM
This man is quickly becoming my new favorite Red.

Dude is a joy to watch pitch.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 09:49 PM
So this is what pitch efficiency looks like. Huh.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Leake is through 3 innings with 41 pitches, 25 for strikes. He has given up one hit, 0 BBs, and 3 Ks so far. Looking very good....

Reds up 2-0 after 3.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Who wins in a footrace, Leake or Cabrera?

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:50 PM
Keppinger reminding everyone in Cincinnati why he isn't a member of the team -- no natural position on D.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:51 PM
OCab singles to lead off the third.

Lance Nix flies out.

VR
04-28-2010, 09:51 PM
Leake faces the minimum through 3 innings.

Not bad

I say we keep him. To Scraps point....I think it takes out so much garbage. Part of Homer and Cueto's problems are that they obviously dwell on previous pitches or batters too much.

Get up there and chuck it where the catcher wants it. Quit giving yourself time to think about what could happen if you don't deliver the perfect pitch.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:52 PM
Laynce Nix -- living proof there's more to being a slugger than lifting heavy objects in the offseason.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:53 PM
Help yourself Mike.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02s5WSNpsSY

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 09:53 PM
Razor Ramon doubles, OCab to third.

puca
04-28-2010, 09:54 PM
I say we keep him. To Scraps point....I think it takes out so much garbage. Part of Homer and Cueto's problems are that they obviously dwell on previous pitches or batters too much.

Get up there and chuck it where the catcher wants it. Quit giving yourself time to think about what could happen if you don't deliver the perfect pitch.

A lot easier on the defense as well.

Added bonus that is that you shorten the rest for your opposing pitcher.

There is a lot of benefit to working quickly.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:54 PM
Wow that 1-1 pitch was a bad call.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Wow that 1-1 pitch was a bad call.

Yeah, I guess the only thing you ask is that Leake gets the same call on the 6" "off the plate" strike.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Come on Brandon, hit one into the Crawford Boxes.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Totally thought Stubbs would K there, glad he held off and took the walk.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:57 PM
Oh those wacky Astros.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:57 PM
OH WOW.

That'll work.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 09:58 PM
Wow.

Thank you baseball gods...?

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 09:59 PM
Wow. Bad defense by the Colt .45's.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 09:59 PM
and BP wasn't hustling.

reds44
04-28-2010, 09:59 PM
and BP wasn't hustling.
98% of players are standing at 2nd base right now, as is Brandon.

NDRed
04-28-2010, 10:00 PM
A little more details please.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 10:00 PM
Reds 4 Astros 0

Hunter Pence makes an error--Phillips on 2nd, Stubbs on 3rd.

Oops, 5-0 Stubbs also scored.

Votto walks.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 10:00 PM
and BP wasn't hustling.Is is just me or is Brandon really just going through the motions so far this year? Somethings amiss.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
98% of players are standing at 2nd base right now, as is Brandon.
I'm not criticizing, I'm just pointing out what the video showed. Put his head down and jogged.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
This is old-school Reds offense -- patience at the plate, working deep into the count, and forcing the opposing starter to labor.

I like what I'm seeing a lot.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
Reds 4 Astros 0

Hunter Pence makes an error--Phillips on 2nd, Stubbs on 3rd.
5-0*

SirFelixCat
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
Bourn lost it in the lights/sky/roof and Pence couldn't quite catch up to it...nice!

VR
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
A little more details please.

yes please, no Tv for me tonight

Brutus
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Can someone tell me what "drawing a walk" means and why it's been happening to this Reds' team lately?

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflexlvVvDE

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
6-0.

*does the happy dance*

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
This is old-school Reds offense -- patience at the plate, working deep into the count, and forcing the opposing starter to labor.

I like what I'm seeing a lot.Ditto.

Rolen doubles. Love that guy.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
A little more details please.

Stubbs walked to load the bases. Phillips hit a fairly routine fly to deep right-center, and Bourne lost it in the lights, and then Pence missed it off his glove. All three runners score, and Phillips ended up on second. He jogged to first, and when they missed the fly he ran fast to 2nd.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:02 PM
Rolen smashed that ball down the line -- almost hit it too hard, as it kept Votto from scoring because it reached Lee so quickly.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflexlvVvDE
Best part of that video is at the start.

"Cardinals fans won't foget"

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 10:03 PM
Rolen doubles in Phillips, Votto to 3rd. 6-0 Reds.

I love Paulino.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 10:04 PM
A little more details please.

With the bases loaded, Phillips lifted a long, high fly to right center, Bourne lost it in the lights, and Pence came over, but dropped it, literally in and out of his glove. Cleared the bases, Phillips at second.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:04 PM
Best part of that video is at the start.

"Cardinals fans won't foget"
The best part is the part where the guy says Rolen.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:04 PM
Painting the inside corner at the letters against Bruce in this AB. Not a lot he can do with those pitches.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:04 PM
I love watching Rolen now, imagine getting to see this guy play in his prime.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:07 PM
Jay Bruce Ks swinging.

Reds up 6-0.

Paulino at 85 pitches.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:07 PM
I think that inning can be summarized by

http://images.whatport80.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 10:08 PM
I love watching Rolen now, imagine getting to see this guy play in his prime.

We can all thank Uncle Carl for missing that. :(

VR
04-28-2010, 10:09 PM
I think that inning can be summarized by

http://images.whatport80.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

Good inning!

Bruce has to lay off pitches in the dirt from guys like Paulino.

OUReds
04-28-2010, 10:12 PM
The last pitch to Bourn was absolutely filthy. Just unfair.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 10:12 PM
Do I see Barbara Bush in the seats behind the plate? Or is it George Washington?

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:13 PM
This just in:

Mike Leake is pretty good.

WVRedsFan
04-28-2010, 10:13 PM
Yep, the Bushes are there and the Leake is throwing zeros.

OUReds
04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
The last pitch to Bourn impressed me so much, I ran downstairs to post. I ran back up just in time to see the 3rd out. Geesh.

The 2009 Draft is lookin mighty good right now.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
After four innings, Reds up 6-0.

Mike Leake at 56 pitches, 34 strikes. One hit, 0 BBs, and 4 Ks.
Ronnie Paulino at 85 pitches, 48 strikes. Six hits, 4 BBs, and 4 Ks.

BCubb2003
04-28-2010, 10:14 PM
This just in:

Mike Leake is pretty good.

Him? That's our other phenom.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:15 PM
Do I see Barbara Bush in the seats behind the plate? Or is it George Washington?
LOL. Wow

VR
04-28-2010, 10:15 PM
After four innings, Reds up 6-0.

Mike Leake at 56 pitches, 34 strikes. One hit, 0 BBs, and 4 Ks.
Ronnie Paulino at 85 pitches, 48 strikes. Six hits, 4 BBs, and 4 Ks.

I feel like we're not getting our money's worth with Leake's low pitch count.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:15 PM
Bit surprised the Astros are keeping Paulino in, but I guess he has just gotten some bad luck.

Puffy
04-28-2010, 10:15 PM
This just in:

Mike Leake is pretty good.

Wait - aren't you the one who had problems with the Reds bringing Leake north? Or am I misremembering?

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:16 PM
The first time I've heard anyone talk about Richie Sexson in almost 2 years.

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 10:16 PM
Around the Central today:

Pirates 6 Brewers 5 / 14 innings
Nats 3 Cubs 2
Cards 3 Braves 0 (in the 4th)

flyer85
04-28-2010, 10:17 PM
Keppinger covers a lot more ground at SS than Cabrera does

Strikes Out Looking
04-28-2010, 10:17 PM
Bit surprised the Astros are keeping Paulino in, but I guess he has just gotten some bad luck.

Actually, with their bullpen and the fact that they are down 6, it seems to make sense and let him take one for the team.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:19 PM
I want a special Reds tote bag.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:21 PM
Wait - aren't you the one who had problems with the Reds bringing Leake north? Or am I misremembering?

I suck at predicting things.

Really -- outright terrible.

I'd never listen to me again, if I were you. :cool:

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:21 PM
Take it to the Peanut Gallery, Thom.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:22 PM
Who likes hockey? Might want to put Versus on.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:22 PM
That Pujols homer was awesome lol.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:22 PM
Ah the home run that broke Brad Lidge's brain for a few years.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:23 PM
Hunter Pence -- Strange Name for a strange looking dude.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:24 PM
Hunter Pence -- Strange Name for a strange looking dude.
Hunter Pence = underpants

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:24 PM
Ah the home run that broke Brad Lidge's brain for a few years.
Dude has to be one of the biggest headcases in the history of baseball. He went from great, to bad, to (literally) perfect, to awful.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:24 PM
Hunter Pence = underpants
Was about to say the same thing.

And wow OC's defense is bad.

flyer85
04-28-2010, 10:25 PM
just when you figure there is no way Cabrera could get any worse

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:26 PM
Was about to say the same thing.

And wow OC's defense is bad.

Yeah, at a certain point, you have enough evidence to conclude that Janish needs to be out there more often -- especially with a GB pitcher like Leake on the mound.

Puffy
04-28-2010, 10:27 PM
I suck at predicting things.

Really -- outright terrible.

I'd never listen to me again, if I were you. :cool:

No, no - I just didn't expect you to come around so quickly, that is all. Us Tulane guys have to stick together.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:28 PM
No, no - I just didn't expect you to come around so quickly, that is all. Us Tulane guys have to stick together.

Really, what I was most concerned about with Leake was getting his brains bashed in and being sent to AAA/AA with his tail tucked between his legs.

That hasn't happened (yet), so I don't know that the team has anything to lose by letting Leake pitch in the majors -- and, apparently, they have quite a bit to gain.

Puffy
04-28-2010, 10:31 PM
just when you figure there is no way Cabrera could get any worse

You have got to be kidding me - I came on knowing someone would blame that on Cabrera. He got blocked out for a mini-second and lost sight of the ball, still fielded it and made strong throw and we still hear this. Peance can fly.

I honestly question if most people on here have ever played a competitive baseball inning in their lives. Cause baseball ain't easy and lots of things factor in.

And janish is terrible. He isn't even the great fielder most here make him out to be - and Cabrera has been extremely steady at plate. Even his outs are hit with good authority, which is all you can ask. But I digress

VR
04-28-2010, 10:31 PM
I don't like walking the dude batting .105.

Just sayin

klw
04-28-2010, 10:32 PM
I think that inning can be summarized by

http://images.whatport80.com/images/9/9e/HA_HA_HA,_OH_WOW.jpg

now what is truly impressive is that if I am correct your graphic is from Tintin: Destination Moon and Professor Calculus has just told Captain Haddock that he is building a rocket to go to the moon. The Captain is laughing and is in the process of jokingly suggesting that the Professor is going to have the mission to the moon be manned. To break out the graphic in Houston in a game against the Astronauts is truly impressive. Nice subtle subtex.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:32 PM
Bourn has looked terrible tonight. Big out by Bourn.

Doc. Scott
04-28-2010, 10:32 PM
The Bourn identity is clear: "guy who cannot hit Mike Leake."

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:32 PM
Astros 5th:

Berkman grounds out to Phillips.
Feliz doubles on a hard grounder down the 3rd base line.
Pence grounds to Cabrerra, who is way deep, and just misses him at 1st. Feliz to 3rd. (Janish might have got him)
Matsui walks. Bases loaded.
Qunitero bounces out, Votto to Leake, one run in.
Cory Sullivan (for Paulino) walks. Bases loaded again.
Bourn Ks swining.

Reds up 6-1 after 5 innings.

Leake pitching behind in the count often this inning. Control is far less sharp. He is now up to 87 pitches. A 30 + pitch inning. Ouch.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:32 PM
You have got to be kidding me - I came on knowing someone would blame that on Cabrera. He got blocked out for a mini-second and lost sight of the ball, still fielded it and made strong throw and we still hear this.

I honestly question if most people on here have ever played a competitive baseball inning in their lives. Cause baseball ain't easy and lots of things factor in.

And janish is terrible. He isn't even the great fielder most here make him out to be - and Cabrera has been extremely steady at plate. Even his outs are hit with good authority, which is all you can ask. But I digress

Cabrera's been a very good addition at the plate, but I think there's no doubt in my mind that Janish has far superior range at SS and a much stronger arm.

Watching them both play, there's a substantial difference between the two, IMO.

VR
04-28-2010, 10:33 PM
You have got to be kidding me - I came on knowing someone would blame that on Cabrera. He got blocked out for a mini-second and lost sight of the ball, still fielded it and made strong throw and we still hear this. Peance can fly.

I honestly question if most people on here have ever played a competitive baseball inning in their lives. Cause baseball ain't easy and lots of things factor in.

And janish is terrible. He isn't even the great fielder most here make him out to be - and Cabrera has been extremely steady at plate. Even his outs are hit with good authority, which is all you can ask. But I digress

You realize they are talking about ORLANDO Cabrera, yes?

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:34 PM
I'm with Puffy, I support O-Cab.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 10:34 PM
The backdoor action on Leake's fastball is simply stunning.

flyer85
04-28-2010, 10:35 PM
Cabrera took an awful route (I don't care if he got screened a little or not) . It was a routine play and he botched it by taking the wrong route and taking too long to get rid of the ball. If you can't make that play you shouldn't be out there

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:36 PM
Cabrera took an awful route (I don't care if he got screened a little or not) . It was a routine play and he botched it by taking the wrong route and taking too long to get rid of the ball. If you can't make that play you shouldn't be out there

That's how I saw it too.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 10:39 PM
It's too early to have too much meaning, but for those of you thinking Cabrera's range has been awful - UZR agrees with you.

Going into this evening, Cabrera was on pace to give up 36 runs below average over the course of 150 games.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:39 PM
Reds 6th:

Brian Moehler in to pitch.
Leake singles down the 1st base line, thrown out trying to stretch it to a double. (Leake gets average back to .400)
Stubbs flies out to right.
Phillips lines out to short.

Stubbs and Phillips saw three pitches between them, giving Leake no time to rest or catch his breath.

After 5 and a half: Reds up 6-1.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:40 PM
Twin killer, nice.

VR
04-28-2010, 10:40 PM
Can someone tell me what "drawing a walk" means and why it's been happening to this Reds' team lately?

So much for that strategy.....14 pitches to get through the last 6 hitters, with Leake seeing 4 of them.

wolfboy
04-28-2010, 10:41 PM
It's too early to have too much meaning, but for those of you thinking Cabrera's range has been awful - UZR agrees with you.

Going into this evening, Cabrera was on pace to give up 36 runs below average over the course of 150 games.

That's really, really bad. Isn't that like Dunn territory?

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 10:41 PM
So if a Double Play is a pitcher's best friend, and a dog is a man's best friend, and all pitchers are men, what type of dog is a double play?

Kc61
04-28-2010, 10:42 PM
Leake is an outstanding draft choice. Really in complete control out there.

Wouldn't push him too far, though. One more inning, tops.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:43 PM
Pitches for Leake?

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:43 PM
Astros 6th:

Keppinger singles to left.
Carlos lee grounds into a 6-4-3 doubleplay.
Berkman bounces out, Votto to Leake.

After 6, Reds still up 6 to 1.

Leake at 96 pitches, 55 strikes. Nice recovery there.

VR
04-28-2010, 10:43 PM
Leake is an outstanding draft choice. Really in complete control out there.

Wouldn't push him too far, though. One more inning, tops.

x2

Always Red
04-28-2010, 10:44 PM
It's too early to have too much meaning, but for those of you thinking Cabrera's range has been awful - UZR agrees with you.



http://images.nymag.com/news/sports/baseball100426_chart2_560.jpg

Brutus
04-28-2010, 10:44 PM
That's really, really bad. Isn't that like Dunn territory?

It's very bad. Think of it this way... that's on pace to be 3 wins below replacement from defense alone. Since he's, offensively, a replacement player, that means that the Reds could find any readily available replacement (Janish) and actually win them an extra 3 games than would Cabrera. In this case, Janish would actually be above replacement because of his defense.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:48 PM
Reds 7th:

Votto grounds out to Matsui at 2nd.
Rolen Ks on a check swing.
Bruce grounds out to Matsui at 2nd.

After six and a half, Reds 6, Astros 1.

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:51 PM
Feliz with a base hit back up the middle on the ground.

Underpants with a lineout to BP for the 1st out.

Kaz Matsui skies it to Bruce for out #2.

Humberto Quinto taps in front of the plate and steps on the ball for the third out.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 10:53 PM
Astros 7th:

Feliz grounds one on the shortstop side of 2nd, Cabrerra slowly watches it go by.
Pence lines one to Phillips.
Matsui pops out to Bruce in shallow right.
Quintero chips one in front of the plate, Hernandez tags him out.

After 7, Reds 6, Astros 1.

Leake now at 105 pitches, 60 strikes.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:55 PM
Helluva effort by Leake. Well done.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 10:55 PM
Uh oh, they brought in the crazy guy.

reds44
04-28-2010, 10:56 PM
LOL did anybody catch Hatcher in the background making fun of the Astros pitcher?

Caveat Emperor
04-28-2010, 10:59 PM
Leake being on deck means nothing, really -- he's probably swinging a hotter bat than any of the pinch-hit options available off the bench.

reds44
04-28-2010, 11:00 PM
I would have let Leake hit for himself.

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 11:00 PM
It's too early to have too much meaning, but for those of you thinking Cabrera's range has been awful - UZR agrees with you.

Going into this evening, Cabrera was on pace to give up 36 runs below average over the course of 150 games.

Anyone read about the whole Jason Bay UZR adjustment from last year? That just really makes you think that the stat is very flawed at this juncture.

pedro
04-28-2010, 11:02 PM
I know the Astros are awful but i don't think I could be more impressed with Mike Leake.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:02 PM
Reds 8th:

Gervacio in to pitch.
Cabrerra hits a soft liner to center, Bourn makes a nice catch coming in.
Nix flies out to left.
Hernandez walks.
Dickerson (for Leake) flies out to center.

After 7 and a half, Reds up 6-1.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:08 PM
Anyone read about the whole Jason Bay UZR adjustment from last year? That just really makes you think that the stat is very flawed at this juncture.

UZR is still imperfect, but I'll take it over fielding percentage any day. Fielding stats are really in their infancy. See THIS piece from FanGraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/uzr-and-jason-bay/)on the subject.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:09 PM
Anyone read about the whole Jason Bay UZR adjustment from last year? That just really makes you think that the stat is very flawed at this juncture.

It was done because the newer versions of the formula took into account more factors - specifically in this case playing the field at Fenway Park. Accordingly, they backdated the stats from previous seasons. I don't think it is flawed, just that it's still an evolving resource as most stats have been for a while.

Degenerate39
04-28-2010, 11:11 PM
O.Cab says Take that Redszone!

nate
04-28-2010, 11:11 PM
Nice throw by O-Cab.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:14 PM
Astros 8th:

Rhodes in to pitch.

Jason Michaels (for Gervacio) grounds out to Cabrerra, who makes a nice jump throw.
Bourn Ks (golden sombrero there)
Keppinger grounds out to Phillips.

After 8 innings: Reds up 6-1.

(Will they use Cordero in the 9th with a 5 run lead?)

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 11:14 PM
All hail King Arthur.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:15 PM
Who pitches the ninth?

I'd go with Lincoln. I think Baker will go with Cordero.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 11:17 PM
I'd consider giving Fisher the 9th.

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 11:18 PM
It was done because the newer versions of the formula took into account more factors - specifically in this case playing the field at Fenway Park. Accordingly, they backdated the stats from previous seasons. I don't think it is flawed, just that it's still an evolving resource as most stats have been for a while.

By saying something is "evolving", that's just another way of saying that there are issues with the statistic. Just interesting that the guy went from a poor defender to an adequate one overnight.

pedro
04-28-2010, 11:18 PM
Stubbs is looking better.

VR
04-28-2010, 11:19 PM
Stubbs is looking better.

1st double of the year....wowza.

I'm glad he's had 2 hits, but perhaps happier that he had 0 k's.

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 11:20 PM
Stubbs is looking better.

Home cooking?

Razor Shines
04-28-2010, 11:21 PM
Home cooking?

Crappy pitching

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:22 PM
Reds 9th:

Chris Sampson in to pitch

Stubbs doubles to left.
Phillips lines to Sampson, who can't hold on, but throws him out at 1st. Stubbs holds.
Votto bounces out to 1st, Stubbs to third.
Rolen bounces out to third.

After 8 and a half, Reds up 6-1.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 11:22 PM
Home pitching?

OUReds
04-28-2010, 11:23 PM
It's too early to have too much meaning, but for those of you thinking Cabrera's range has been awful - UZR agrees with you.

Going into this evening, Cabrera was on pace to give up 36 runs below average over the course of 150 games.

You're right, it's way too early for this to have any meaning.

Drew Stubbs is on a pace to be -62.8 runs/150 games.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:24 PM
By saying something is "evolving", that's just another way of saying that there are issues with the statistic. Just interesting that the guy went from a poor defender to an adequate one overnight.

Why does improving something suddenly mean it wasn't credible?

Car manufacturers, for instance, are always trying to improve safety features on vehicles. Does that necessarily mean they were unsafe to begin with?

Just because something isn't a finish product out of the box doesn't diminish it. It just means that it's not perfect. And I think everyone would agree it's not intended as being such.

Tom Servo
04-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Walks will haunt.

Puffy
04-28-2010, 11:25 PM
Cabrera's been a very good addition at the plate, but I think there's no doubt in my mind that Janish has far superior range at SS and a much stronger arm.

Watching them both play, there's a substantial difference between the two, IMO.

Not saying Cabrera is great in field anymore

But - he has become the whipping boy and on the list of the Reds problems he is way down there. And from reading this board his defense is biggest Reds problem there is. Thats bull.

And 2, yes Janish has superior range and soft hands. However, there was no one on this board who would have been comfortable with him going into the year as starting shortstop. Over a 162 game season his offense would be overexposed beyond belief. The guy needs a Fat Albert wiffle ball bat or he is screwed.

All in all Cabrera has been torched, and undeservedly so. I don't need to hear about every single single up the middle being his fault. Its BS.

And he took that "bad" route to Pence's ball because that was the only route he could take. Feliz froze there, he didn't break on contact, so Cabrera had to go backwards to find the ball. If Felix breaks as soon as he realizes the ball was behind him Cabrera makes play. If Pence doesn't bust it down line with his speed Cabrera makes play.

Cabrera is a better fielder right now than jeter and its not affecting the Yanks. As I said, on the list of Reds problems Cabrera is far down on that list. He should not be the whipping boy.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:26 PM
You're right, it's way too early for this to have any meaning.

Drew Stubbs is on a pace to be -62.8 runs/150 games.

I would substitute "any" for "much."

But definitely don't claim there has been enough of a sample to be an end-all of the discussion.

In this particular case though, the UZR just tells me what I already believed - Cabrera's range is bordering on atrocious.

reds44
04-28-2010, 11:27 PM
Hold the phone.

OUReds
04-28-2010, 11:27 PM
I would substitute "any" for "much."

But definitely don't claim there has been enough of a sample to be an end-all of the discussion.

In this particular case though, the UZR just tells me what I already believed - Cabrera's range is bordering on atrocious.

Does it tell you the same for Drew? Or does it tell you the sample size is way too small?

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:28 PM
I'd consider giving Fisher the 9th.

Better than Masset. :(

Puffy
04-28-2010, 11:29 PM
Massett comes in, starts a small fire and then dumps gasoline on said fire.

All of a sudden its a potential save situation.....

VR
04-28-2010, 11:30 PM
Kinda silly question, but why was Massett sent out there a 2nd straight night to face the exact same batters he faced last night, when there were other rested options in the pen? Actually, guys that needed work?

Maybe he wanted to get him out there to follow up last nights great performance and help him build confidence. Don't know.

Kc61
04-28-2010, 11:31 PM
Dusty overuses Masset. He pitched yesterday, no reason to pitch him tonight. He didn't have it and it was predictable.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:31 PM
Kinda silly question, but why was Massett sent out there a 2nd straight night to face the exact same batters he faced last night, when there were other rested options in the pen? Actually, guys that needed work?

Maybe he wanted to get him out there to follow up last nights great performance and help him build confidence. Don't know.

I think a stronger argument can be made that Baker wears out reliever's arms than he does starter arms.

Tony Cloninger
04-28-2010, 11:32 PM
Maybe he just needs to get his head out of his..... he nibbled with Lee....everything was wide and he pitched to him like he was pitching around him.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:32 PM
Massett comes in, starts a small fire and then dumps gasoline on said fire.

All of a sudden its a potential save situation.....

I don't think he can get a save here. I thought if you work less than an inning, without the tying run on deck, no save.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:32 PM
Man a loss tonight would really be hard to take.

Kc61
04-28-2010, 11:33 PM
I think a stronger argument can be made that Baker wears out reliever's arms than he does starter arms.


Agree completely.
My biggest criticism of Dusty is that he picks two or three relievers and wears them out. Now Coco is in trouble.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 11:33 PM
I really hate using Cordero for a 3rd time in 4 days to protect a 3 run lead with two outs. Really Dusty? Cordero sucks when he's tired... and here we go.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Forget the save, let's just try not to lose this one.

Razor Shines
04-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Now we can bring in somebody to get the save.

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
I really hate using Cordero for a 3rd time in 4 days to protect a 3 run lead with two outs. Really Dusty? Cordero sucks when he's tired... and here we go.

1 out

guttle11
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
I'm not a pile jumper, but there was no reason whatsoever to bring CoCo in to this game. None at all. Masset was fine, Berkman just went Berkman.

KoryMac5
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
To be fair though the Reds starting pitching has a lot to do with Dusty wearing out thos BP arms.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
This is managing at its stupidest. Owings hadn't pitched since the 23rd, God forbid he get a save.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:34 PM
Tired CoCo = Wild CoCo

flyer85
04-28-2010, 11:35 PM
I'm not a pile jumper, but there was no reason whatsoever to bring CoCo in to this game. None at all. Masset was fine, Berkman just went Berkman.that was my thought

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Does it tell you the same for Drew? Or does it tell you the sample size is way too small?

As I said, the sample is still an issue to make decisive conclusions/judgments based on the statistic alone.

Keep in mind, though, that a SS at this point in the season sees more activity than does a CF and as such has a bit more to go on.

KronoRed
04-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Masset just helping or Cordero by making it a save situation.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 11:35 PM
Should I be laughing or crying?

edabbs44
04-28-2010, 11:36 PM
It isn't a save situation.

Puffy
04-28-2010, 11:36 PM
Even if Reds hold on I wouldn't give Cordero a save.

guttle11
04-28-2010, 11:36 PM
Unreal. Micro-managing at its finest (and worst).

Kc61
04-28-2010, 11:36 PM
Coco looks gassed out there tonight. Maybe he can come back, but he just doesn't look sharp.

OUReds
04-28-2010, 11:37 PM
As I said, the sample is still an issue to make decisive conclusions/judgments based on the statistic alone.

Keep in mind, though, that a SS at this point in the season sees more activity than does a CF and as such has a bit more to go on.

28 plays vs 34. OCab could be at +10 next update, and it still wouldn't mean anything.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:37 PM
1990 Reds

Myers - 31 Saves
Dibble - 11 Saves
Mahler - 4 Saves
Charlton - 2 Saves
Layana - 2 Saves

flyer85
04-28-2010, 11:37 PM
Coco looks gassed out there tonight. Maybe he can come back, but he just doesn't look sharp.
he's struggled with command on most nights this season

HokieRed
04-28-2010, 11:37 PM
Coco looks gassed out there tonight. Maybe he can come back, but he just doesn't look sharp.

Why did he pitch last night? There's no excuse for Baker on any of this.

reds44
04-28-2010, 11:38 PM
Whew. I thought that was trouble when he hit it.

Ballgame.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:38 PM
Astros 9th:

Nick Masset in to pitch.

Carlos Lee draws a 4 pitch walk.
Berkman smacks a two run homer to the Crawford boxes in left.
Feliz Ks swinging.
Dusty pulls Masset out, Cordero in. This is a non-save situation since there is already one out with a three run lead. (I think).
Pence singles off Votto.
Matsui walks.
Blum singles to center, Pence scores.
Towles Ks swinging.
Bourn flies out to Bruce in deep right.

Whew...And this one belongs to the Reds, 6-4.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:38 PM
Better lucky than good.

VR
04-28-2010, 11:39 PM
Well....it's a win.

Masset and Cordero are most likely unavailable now for tomorrow night. Use Owings/Lincoln/Fisher....and the ENTIRE BP could go tomorrow. Oh well.

RedsManRick
04-28-2010, 11:39 PM
Coco looks gassed out there tonight. Maybe he can come back, but he just doesn't look sharp.

It seems he always struggles if he's not fresh. Sending him out there was a perfect example of Dusty's absolute inability to use his own brain instead of following the book.

Cyclone792
04-28-2010, 11:40 PM
Great game for Leake.

Brutal bullpen management. The toothpick's gotta go.

Cyclone792
04-28-2010, 11:41 PM
Well....it's a win.

Masset and Cordero are most likely unavailable now for tomorrow night. Use Owings/Lincoln/Fisher....and the ENTIRE BP could go tomorrow. Oh well.

Rhodes possibly unavailable tomorrow night too.

I'd have sent Micah Owings to pinch hit for Leake in the top of the 8th, then told Owings to finish it. If a fresh Micah Owings can't get six outs while protecting a five run lead, then this bullpen is worse than we think.

Only Dusty would continually blow his better relievers in games they shouldn't pitch in, and then when those guys are needed, they're pitching gassed and getting knocked around.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:42 PM
28 plays vs 34. OCab could be at +10 next update, and it still wouldn't mean anything.

No, that's just the plays they were able to make. It doesn't count all the attempts.

The actual balls in zone are 31 vs. 47. But when you add in all the balls outside their zones that they made plays on, you're looking at probably 25 more plays for Cabrera.

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:42 PM
Really bad bullpen management by Baker tonight, but overall, he's still better at it than Narron or Boone.

Cyclone792
04-28-2010, 11:42 PM
Really bad bullpen management by Baker tonight, but overall, he's still better at it than Narron or Boone.

That's like saying a 250 pound fat chick is hotter than a 300 pound fat chick.

HokieRed
04-28-2010, 11:42 PM
Did we ever get an explanation as to why he put in Cordero in a non-save situation last night?

TheNext44
04-28-2010, 11:43 PM
Rhodes possibly unavailable tomorrow night too.

I'd have sent Micah Owings to pinch hit for Leake in the top of the 8th, then told Owings to finish it. If a fresh Micah Owings can't get six outs while protecting a five run lead, then this bullpen is worse than we think.

Only Dusty would continually blow his better relievers in games they shouldn't pitch in, and then when those guys are needed, they're pitching gassed and getting knocked around.

That's a good call, pinch hitting Owings there, and then letting him pitch. Would like to see that happen more often.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:44 PM
Agreed. Unbelievable that after Leake gives the Reds 7 strong innings, and we have have 5 run lead, that we end up using Rhodes, Masset (for the 2nd straight game), and Cordero(for the 3rd time in 4 games).

OUReds
04-28-2010, 11:44 PM
No, that's just the plays they were able to make. It doesn't count all the attempts.

The actual balls in zone are 31 vs. 47. But when you add in all the balls outside their zones that they made plays on, you're looking at probably 25 more plays for Cabrera.

Hmm, thanks. Still doesn't mean anything. :)

I think OCab will be below average also, but there's no point in beating him about the head and ears with UZR yet.

Edit: Ahh BIZ=balls in zone, gotcha.
oh and, I like Dusty a lot, but the bullpen use was silly today.

Spring~Fields
04-28-2010, 11:45 PM
Final Cincinnati 6, Houston 4
:thumbup:


Cincinnati
IP H R ER BB K HR
M. Leake 7.0 5 1 1 2 5 0
A. Rhodes 1.0 0 0 0 0 1 0
N. Masset 0.1 1 2 2 1 1 1
F. Cordero 0.2 2 1 1 1 1 0

Houston
F. Paulino 5.0 6 6 2 4 4 0
B. Moehler 2.0 1 0 0 0 1 0
S. Gervacio 1.0 0 0 0 1 0 0
C. Sampson 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0


Pitches-strikes -
M Leake 105-59; A Rhodes 19-12; N Masset 12-5; F Cordero 15-8;
F Paulino 93-53; B Moehler 20-11; S Gervacio 16-9; C Sampson 12-8.

Ground balls-fly balls -
M Leake 13-5; A Rhodes 2-0; N Masset 0-1; F Cordero 1-1;
F Paulino 8-9; B Moehler 2-0; S Gervacio 0-3; C Sampson 3-1.

Batters faced -
M Leake 26; A Rhodes 3; N Masset 3; F Cordero 5;
F Paulino 26; B Moehler 6; S Gervacio 4; C Sampson 4

lollipopcurve
04-28-2010, 11:46 PM
Gotta agree with the criticism of the bullpen usage. Awful. Baker seems bent on using only certain guys in games the Reds are winning. He managed to warm up Lincoln and Herrera without using them, too. In a game they led by 5. Grrrrrrrrr....

Anyway, love watching Leake.

membengal
04-28-2010, 11:47 PM
Rhodes possibly unavailable tomorrow night too.

I'd have sent Micah Owings to pinch hit for Leake in the top of the 8th, then told Owings to finish it. If a fresh Micah Owings can't get six outs while protecting a five run lead, then this bullpen is worse than we think.

Only Dusty would continually blow his better relievers in games they shouldn't pitch in, and then when those guys are needed, they're pitching gassed and getting knocked around.

It is absolutely beyond all reckoning and reason. Indefensible on every level. I am nearly as befuddled by the moves tonite from Dusty as I was during Harang-gate in 2008.

Cyclone792
04-28-2010, 11:47 PM
Did we ever get an explanation as to why he put in Cordero in a non-save situation last night?

I didn't bother looking for any explanation, but I know I shook my head last night watching Cordero enter the game.

Dusty's bullpen management these last two nights really puts this team on thin ice tomorrow night. We better hope the offense pulls something out of their ace and lights up Oswalt, because if it's a close game we'll be fighting without our best relievers ... all because of brutal bullpen mismanagement.

Of course, Dusty will just blame the rotation anyway for the bullpen being gassed.

Brutus
04-28-2010, 11:47 PM
Hmm, thanks. Still doesn't mean anything. :)

I think OCab will be below average also, but there's no point in beating him about the head and ears with UZR yet.

Well, I think 70+ samples are enough to at least start referencing it, but at this point we'll be arguing semantics debating whether it means a little or nothing.

At this juncture, Cabrera will be beating over the heads and ears here regardless. Nothing wrong with adding a little statistical support to the supposition.

mbgrayson
04-28-2010, 11:51 PM
I didn't bother looking for any explanation, but I know I shook my head last night watching Cordero enter the game.

Dusty's bullpen management these last two nights really puts this team on thin ice tomorrow night. We better hope the offense pulls something out of their ace and lights up Oswalt, because if it's a close game we'll be fighting without our best relievers ... all because of brutal bullpen mismanagement.

Of course, Dusty will just blame the rotation anyway for the bullpen being gassed.

He probably will, but Harang gave us six strong last night, and Leake 7 innings tonight. Monday was an off day. That dog won't hunt if the bullpen blows it tomorrow. Inexcusable.

OUReds
04-28-2010, 11:55 PM
Well, I think 70+ samples are enough to at least start referencing it, but at this point we'll be arguing semantics debating whether it means a little or nothing.

At this juncture, Cabrera will be beating over the heads and ears here regardless. Nothing wrong with adding a little statistical support to the supposition.

Wait, now I'm confused, I thought we were talking about 47 balls in the zone? Where are you getting 70+?

And how can Drew Stubbs have made 10 plays out of zone and still have a -3.4 range runs above average?

Sometimes I think UZR wasn't made to be understood.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but a stat doesn't grow any more valid because it supports your preconceptions. It can't be worth mentioning for OCab and not be predictive at all for Stubbs.

WVRedsFan
04-29-2010, 12:01 AM
Anymore, I cringe when I see Masset or Codero come into a game. Nick is just off so far this year and Codero is very hittable. So why the confidence in them by Dusty? That said, I like Dusty as a person (I've met him twice), but as a manager, not so much. Like someone said he's better than Boone, Narron, or Miley, and like Cyclone said that's like saying a 250 pound fat chick is hotter than a 300 pound fat chick. His batting orders are maddening (continuing to bat Stubbs leadoff and refusing to play a hot Hannigan) and his "gut feelings" usually don't play out. We did win, but how much of that was luck.

Did enjoy Leake, though. Leake, Chapman, Cueto, and maybe Bailey is a nice future to look forward to.

pedro
04-29-2010, 12:02 AM
Rhodes possibly unavailable tomorrow night too.

I'd have sent Micah Owings to pinch hit for Leake in the top of the 8th, then told Owings to finish it. If a fresh Micah Owings can't get six outs while protecting a five run lead, then this bullpen is worse than we think.

Only Dusty would continually blow his better relievers in games they shouldn't pitch in, and then when those guys are needed, they're pitching gassed and getting knocked around.

Generally I think Dusty does a decent job with the BP but I think that bringing in Owings would have been a good move to make.

However, I really don't agree that tonights BP management was "indefensible". Masset is probably the #2 RH option in the BP and he's going to have to be able to pitch on consecutive nights for the Reds to succeed on any level this year. He pitched last night for the first time since the 23rd and he did well last night only throwing 16 pitches. The problem is, he didn't do well tonight.

As for Cordero, he pitched last night too but, he hasn't pitched two nights in a row since the 13th of April. This is what he gets paid for.

Honestly, I think this hyperbole that this was horrible management and that Dusty should be fired for it is a little overblown.

Scrap Irony
04-29-2010, 12:09 AM
Wait, now I'm confused, I thought we were talking about 47 balls in the zone? Where are you getting 70+?

I thought it took at least half a season to even get in the ballpark to start suggesting anything about UZR?

pedro
04-29-2010, 12:12 AM
I think if Dusty said his favorite cut of steak was a porterhouse some folks here would want him fired for not choosing a ribeye. (Or visa-versa)

He's like a girlfriend you've already decided your going to break up with so you find issues with every little thing she does to justify it.

I think some of the alternate points of view about what he should have or could have done are perfectly valid, but that doesn't mean that he's stupid for choosing another path.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 12:13 AM
Wait, now I'm confused, I thought we were talking about 47 balls in the zone? Where are you getting 70+?

And how can Drew Stubbs have made 10 plays out of zone and still have a -3.4 range runs above average?

Sometimes I think UZR wasn't made to be understood.

I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but a stat doesn't grow any more valid because it supports your preconceptions. It can't be worth mentioning for OCab and not be predictive at all for Stubbs.

I'm getting 70+ because that's about how many plays that have gone toward Cabrera that he's made some sort of play (or attempt) on. There have been a lot of balls go by him that won't show up in his zone but have been made by many other shortstops. That's kind of the point to UZR in that he's not getting to those balls outside of his zone (and he's sometimes not even getting to those).

I never said the stat was validated because it supported anything. I believe it's validated because it's a good measure - better than anything we've had previously - to a player's defensive ability. Further, you're putting words in my mouth, or on my keyboard. I never said it was "predictive" but rather somewhat descriptive of what's happened thus far - not what may happen going forward. I meant the pace for 150 games just based on if he were to continue at the pace he's on.

And where I am not saying it's conclusive, especially with the sample, I'm saying that Cabrera's sample is a little bigger than Stubbs', so it would naturally carry a bit more weight just as comparing a guy with 70 plate appearances to someone with 45 plate appearances.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 12:15 AM
I thought it took at least half a season to even get in the ballpark to start suggesting anything about UZR?

People that study UZR extensively say it's at least that to start making judgments about a player's defensive talent level and generally needs more than a year for even that. It can be referenced sooner strictly on a performance basis, though.

Tony Cloninger
04-29-2010, 12:16 AM
So if he brings in any other pitchers and they tank.....Dusty is still stupid.

Either way.....I agree with both being used tonight when you have fresher arms.

kaldaniels
04-29-2010, 12:19 AM
I think if Dusty said his favorite cut of steak was a porterhouse some folks here would want him fired for not choosing a ribeye. (Or visa-versa)

He's like a girlfriend you've already decided your going to break up with so you find issues with every little thing she does to justify it.

I think some of the alternate points of view about what he should have or could have done are perfectly valid, but that doesn't mean that he's stupid for choosing another path.

I like it. :thumbup:

OUReds
04-29-2010, 12:25 AM
I'm getting 70+ because that's about how many plays that have gone toward Cabrera that he's made some sort of play (or attempt) on. There have been a lot of balls go by him that won't show up in his zone but have been made by many other shortstops. That's kind of the point to UZR in that he's not getting to those balls outside of his zone (and he's sometimes not even getting to those).

I never said the stat was validated because it supported anything. I believe it's validated because it's a good measure - better than anything we've had previously - to a player's defensive ability. Further, you're putting words in my mouth, or on my keyboard. I never said it was "predictive" but rather somewhat descriptive of what's happened thus far - not what may happen going forward. I meant the pace for 150 games just based on if he were to continue at the pace he's on.

And where I am not saying it's conclusive, especially with the sample, I'm saying that Cabrera's sample is a little bigger than Stubbs', so it would naturally carry a bit more weight just as comparing a guy with 70 plate appearances to someone with 45 plate appearances.

You said "for those of you who think that Cabrera's range is awful, UZR agrees with you." Clearly you are using UZR to validate the claim that Cabrera's range is awful and support that statement.

I also don't understand your point about UZR. Balls out of his zone are not his responsibility. They are in a different fielder's zone. If he has 47 BIZ, it seems disingenuous to tack on 20+ balls that many other SSs might have got to.

I think it's a good measure also, just not with about 10% of a season's sample size.

WVRedsFan
04-29-2010, 12:26 AM
I think if Dusty said his favorite cut of steak was a porterhouse some folks here would want him fired for not choosing a ribeye. (Or visa-versa)

He's like a girlfriend you've already decided your going to break up with so you find issues with every little thing she does to justify it.

I think some of the alternate points of view about what he should have or could have done are perfectly valid, but that doesn't mean that he's stupid for choosing another path.

Good points all. The fact is, with little offense and very poor starting pitching (and not so great bullpen work from Masset and Codero), we stand at 10-11. Give him some horses, and he'd do fine. The trouble is, we have only one or two horses so far. Hopefully that will change.

WebScorpion
04-29-2010, 12:30 AM
Welcome back to 2nd place, Reds! Tomorrow we face Oswalt to attempt our return to .500. :D

Brutus
04-29-2010, 12:31 AM
You said "for those of you who think that Cabrera's range is awful, UZR agrees with you." Clearly you are using UZR to validate the claim that Cabrera's range is awful and support that statement.

I also don't understand your point about UZR. Balls out of his zone are not his responsibility. They are in a different fielder's zone. If he has 47 BIZ, it seems disingenuous to tack on 20+ balls that many other SSs might have got to.

I think it's a good measure also, just not with about 10% of the sample size.

Wow you're really making a big deal out of this, lol.

As I said previously, people were already saying what they thought of Cabrera's defense. Why not bring a little bit of support to those statements? Nowhere did I say it need be considered definitive.

Nothing more, nothing less.

One other point... I'm not referring to balls in another fielder's zones. I'm talking about the zones that don't belong to anyone.

OUReds
04-29-2010, 12:38 AM
Wow you're really making a big deal out of this, lol.

As I said previously, people were already saying what they thought of Cabrera's defense. Why not bring a little bit of support to those statements? Nowhere did I say it need be considered definitive.

Nothing more, nothing less.

One other point... I'm not referring to balls in another fielder's zones. I'm talking about the zones that don't belong to anyone.

LOL no, no. No big deal. Here, beer me!
:beerme:


Wait, there are zones that DON"T BELONG TO ANYONE?!

Edit: Ok, if I understand this correctly, in UZR no zones "belong" to anyone. They are set areas where the number of outs made by fielders are compared against the average out rate set by other fielders.

The BIZ and and OOZ numbers are used for RZR which uses a different concept of zones.

I still don't think that UZR was meant to be understood.

HokieRed
04-29-2010, 12:44 AM
I think Dusty did a lousy job of managing the bullpen last night (using CoCo) and tonight, but the larger problem is the configuration of guys we've got out there. Coco and Rhodes have been great; Massett is completely unreliable; he seems to want to hold Owings for longer than one inning stints, which means you've got one guy less to take his turn; Herrera is a guy you probably need to spot carefully; it's impossible to have full confidence in Lincoln yet; and Fisher's just out of AAA, after being promising but erratic last year. So I think Dusty's got a real dilemma. We need at least one more experienced reliable arm.

_Sir_Charles_
04-29-2010, 01:26 AM
Just got home from the game tonight. I must say, that was one of the most enjoyable experiences at a ballpark. We got there early for Reds batting practice and my daughter quickly made friends with the security guy right next to us. He was flirting with her all night. Too cute. Anyway, we got autographs from Scott Rolen, Daniel Ray Herrera, Drew Stubbs, Jay Bruce, Aaron Harang, and Brandon Phillips. Security guy treated my daughter to some bazooka bubble gum and even got her a batting practice ball and a toy ball too. The fans around us were very friendly and couldn't stop glowing about what great guys Scott Rolen & Jay Bruce are. Drew, Jay & Danny Ray seemed to know EVERYBODY at the game (all 3 from texas).

As for the actual game, Leake looked simply fantastic. The movement on his pitches is just SICK. Even the fastball has incredible movement. His velocity isn't anywhere close to as mediocre as reported. He kicked it into gear a few times to the tune of about 94...but quickly pulled the string to a mid 70's curve. Nice. The defense was really on it's toes all night due to how quickly he worked. Quite refreshing to see. As for the bats, Jay, Drew, Brandon & Gomes were all crushing the ball during BP and it was nice to see some of the struggling players get some hits to fall in (Drew & Brandon mainly). Cabrera really underwhelmed me in person. He did get blocked on that close play early in the game (I think it was Pence hitting) but he didn't hustle at all to get to the ball to begin with. Overall, a great effort by the guys and a joy to watch. Beside the pen attempting to implode there in the ninth, fun game.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 01:31 AM
LOL no, no. No big deal. Here, beer me!
:beerme:


Wait, there are zones that DON"T BELONG TO ANYONE?!

Edit: Ok, if I understand this correctly, in UZR no zones "belong" to anyone. They are set areas where the number of outs made by fielders are compared against the average out rate set by other fielders.

The BIZ and and OOZ numbers are used for RZR which uses a different concept of zones.

I still don't think that UZR was meant to be understood.

It's all good. I wasn't upset or anything. :beerme:

You're right in the sense that the plays made and not made are compared to other fielders. However, there are some zones on the field assigned to each fielder that are expected to be made if a ball is hit in those zones. Any plays made outside of those zones are credited to the fielder even if they weren't expected to make them. But there are a lot of balls hit into some of those unspecified zones that are being made by other fielders.

As an example, Cabrera has only made two plays that were out of the zones of which he would be expected to make a routine play. That's tied for worst in the majors of all qualified shortstops with Edgar Renteria. There are already 10 major league shortstops that have made at least double-digit plays outside of those zones.

Ignoring the numbers and how they translate to runs saved or allowed above average, those are pretty drastic numbers for a month into the season. I do believe that they illustrate his extreme lack of range, even if we decide it's too early to rely much (if any) on the UZR/150 number itself.

Will M
04-29-2010, 02:17 AM
I don't need UZR to tell me that Cabrera is a terrible defensive shortstop. Just watch the games.

I said to my wife "I wonder how long we'll see Cabrera at SS & not Janish". Her reply "All season. Its Dusty"

GAC
04-29-2010, 05:54 AM
Coco simply frustrates the crap out of me watching him. Massett was inconsistent, and then gave up that Hr to Berkman; but then YOUR CLOSER comes in - and how many times have we seen this? - and plays with fire. Geez!

OUReds
04-29-2010, 08:10 AM
You're right in the sense that the plays made and not made are compared to other fielders. However, there are some zones on the field assigned to each fielder that are expected to be made if a ball is hit in those zones. Any plays made outside of those zones are credited to the fielder even if they weren't expected to make them. But there are a lot of balls hit into some of those unspecified zones that are being made by other fielders.

As an example, Cabrera has only made two plays that were out of the zones of which he would be expected to make a routine play. That's tied for worst in the majors of all qualified shortstops with Edgar Renteria. There are already 10 major league shortstops that have made at least double-digit plays outside of those zones.

Now see, that's what I had assumed, but I can't find any UZR explanation that says the zones are assigned to a specific player at all. BIZ and OOZ seem to not apply to UZR at all, only RZR.

I'll think some more on it and probably post a thread later in the ORG.

cumberlandreds
04-29-2010, 09:51 AM
Just got home from the game tonight. I must say, that was one of the most enjoyable experiences at a ballpark. We got there early for Reds batting practice and my daughter quickly made friends with the security guy right next to us. He was flirting with her all night. Too cute. Anyway, we got autographs from Scott Rolen, Daniel Ray Herrera, Drew Stubbs, Jay Bruce, Aaron Harang, and Brandon Phillips. Security guy treated my daughter to some bazooka bubble gum and even got her a batting practice ball and a toy ball too. The fans around us were very friendly and couldn't stop glowing about what great guys Scott Rolen & Jay Bruce are. Drew, Jay & Danny Ray seemed to know EVERYBODY at the game (all 3 from texas).

As for the actual game, Leake looked simply fantastic. The movement on his pitches is just SICK. Even the fastball has incredible movement. His velocity isn't anywhere close to as mediocre as reported. He kicked it into gear a few times to the tune of about 94...but quickly pulled the string to a mid 70's curve. Nice. The defense was really on it's toes all night due to how quickly he worked. Quite refreshing to see. As for the bats, Jay, Drew, Brandon & Gomes were all crushing the ball during BP and it was nice to see some of the struggling players get some hits to fall in (Drew & Brandon mainly). Cabrera really underwhelmed me in person. He did get blocked on that close play early in the game (I think it was Pence hitting) but he didn't hustle at all to get to the ball to begin with. Overall, a great effort by the guys and a joy to watch. Beside the pen attempting to implode there in the ninth, fun game.

Thanks for your report. Sounds like you had a great time. That's what's it all about.
The Reds have 6-1 lead going to the 8th. Owings hasn't been used since the 23rd. If you can't pitch Owings in that sitiation then why is he on the team?