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bucksfan2
04-29-2010, 10:51 AM
Very nice article written by Richard Justice about the state of the Astro's and how to build an organization. It starts out talking about Drew Stubbs and the Astro's missteps. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bb/6980940.html

westofyou
04-29-2010, 10:56 AM
The Reds lost out on Chris Chambliss the way.

Tom Servo
04-29-2010, 11:16 AM
Ed Wade is a bad GM.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 11:21 AM
Hm. Funny that the Reds aren't the only organization to have regrets about other players.

What irks me about that article, assuming it's true, is that Major League Baseball was again lecturing on slotting. If it's so darned important that there is a slotting system in place for draftees, then put the thing in place. If not, shut up and let people pay what they feel is necessary. I do want to see a slotting system, but until/unless it's in the CBA, baseball shouldn't have any ground to stand on telling teams what they should pay.

cumberlandreds
04-29-2010, 11:27 AM
Hm. Funny that the Reds aren't the only organization to have regrets about other players.

What irks me about that article, assuming it's true, is that Major League Baseball was again lecturing on slotting. If it's so darned important that there is a slotting system in place for draftees, then put the thing in place. If not, shut up and let people pay what they feel is necessary. I do want to see a slotting system, but until/unless it's in the CBA, baseball shouldn't have any ground to stand on telling teams what they should pay.

I totally agree with you. If MLB thinks a slotting system is so important they need to have in their next CBA. If I were a club and really wanted a kid and had go over slot, I could care less if the commissioner or anyone else tried intimidate me into a mythical slot position. Oh well,the Astros loss is the Reds gain in this one.

TRF
04-29-2010, 11:45 AM
wait. MLB balked at 900K in the third round, but were ok with Sulbaran's bonus?

what?

Or did the Reds just ignore MLB's whining?

westofyou
04-29-2010, 12:09 PM
Ed Wade is a bad GM.

IIRC Wade was a Phillie employee then

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Interesting that the Astros and other scouts like Drew Stubbs...

bucksfan2
04-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Hm. Funny that the Reds aren't the only organization to have regrets about other players.

What irks me about that article, assuming it's true, is that Major League Baseball was again lecturing on slotting. If it's so darned important that there is a slotting system in place for draftees, then put the thing in place. If not, shut up and let people pay what they feel is necessary. I do want to see a slotting system, but until/unless it's in the CBA, baseball shouldn't have any ground to stand on telling teams what they should pay.

I think thats a cop out on the Astro's part. It was pretty evident that they would rather spend money in FA as opposed to the Draft. If the Astro's really wanted Stubbs and they went to Selig and said "we want to pay over slot for Drew Stubbs. Not only is he a great prospect but he is a home town Texan". Do you think Selig would have declined?

Edd Roush
04-29-2010, 12:47 PM
Interesting that the Astros and other scouts like Drew Stubbs...

If it wasn't for Lincecum, I really don't think you would hear too many complaints about the Stubbs pick.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 01:12 PM
wait. MLB balked at 900K in the third round, but were ok with Sulbaran's bonus?

what?

Or did the Reds just ignore MLB's whining?

It is why all of the overslot signings happen 1-3 days before the signing deadline. MLB is trying to punish teams for going over slot by keeping the kids out of the system that first year (though in some cases negotiations do come down that far - but take Tucker Barnhart for example, in the middle of June he and the Reds agreed on the deal, but he didn't get it approved until August something and could only play that last week of the season). Teams are basically ignoring MLB at this point on the 'slot' system. I think about 80% of the players taken between 1 and 50 signed for over slot.

Tom Servo
04-29-2010, 01:32 PM
IIRC Wade was a Phillie employee then
I wasn't refering to the Stubbs situation, I was just making a general note.

TRF
04-29-2010, 01:35 PM
If it wasn't for Lincecum, I really don't think you would hear too many complaints about the Stubbs pick.

I disagree. The people that Bring up Lincecum now are actually in the pro Stubbs camp.

Until he proves otherwise, He'd be lucky to have Austin Kearns career stats. And I'd say its safe to say Kearns was a bust. He did make a ton o' cash though.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 01:37 PM
And I'd say its safe to say Kearns was a bust. He did make a ton o' cash though.

Guys with 10+ year MLB careers aren't busts. They may be disappointments, but they are not busts in the slightest. A bust is a guy who doesn't have anything resembling an MLB career, much less nearly 18 career WAR.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 01:37 PM
I disagree. The people that Bring up Lincecum now are actually in the pro Stubbs camp.

Until he proves otherwise, He'd be lucky to have Austin Kearns career stats. And I'd say its safe to say Kearns was a bust. He did make a ton o' cash though.

He can already out play Kearns in the field and on the bases, thus his value is not only in need of being measured differently, but also does the application of his value to the Reds, Kearns was just another corner OF on a team loaded with those types.

BTW, no one mentions Linnicum more than you do, I'd be hard pressed to even find second place in that race.

RedsManRick
04-29-2010, 01:43 PM
This is the team that gives 3/15 to a replacement level reliever. I would not hesitate to say that they are tied with the Royals as the worst run organizations in MLB.

paulrichjr
04-29-2010, 02:01 PM
I know one of the hitting coaches for the Astros in A ball and 2 years ago he was talking to me about how bad the talent was but this winter he was bragging that the talent has improved dramatically the last 2 years. I think he said that he coached 4-5 kids that had a legit chance of being really good this past year. He is pretty good friends with Joey Votto and this winter when he came home he called me and wanted my kids to come and see him. They went to his training facility and he presented them with two Joey Votto signed balls.
Big highlight for them.

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 02:03 PM
It is why all of the overslot signings happen 1-3 days before the signing deadline. MLB is trying to punish teams for going over slot by keeping the kids out of the system that first year (though in some cases negotiations do come down that far - but take Tucker Barnhart for example, in the middle of June he and the Reds agreed on the deal, but he didn't get it approved until August something and could only play that last week of the season). Teams are basically ignoring MLB at this point on the 'slot' system. I think about 80% of the players taken between 1 and 50 signed for over slot.

Does Bud Selig have to approve all these draft signings?

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 02:09 PM
Does Bud Selig have to approve all these draft signings?

If they are over slot, someone at the commissioners office does, yes. Whether it is Bud himself, I do not know.

TRF
04-29-2010, 02:19 PM
He can already out play Kearns in the field and on the bases, thus his value is not only in need of being measured differently, but also does the application of his value to the Reds, Kearns was just another corner OF on a team loaded with those types.

BTW, no one mentions Linnicum more than you do, I'd be hard pressed to even find second place in that race.

wanna bet? I don't bring him up ever anymore. Haven't in two years EXCEPT to refute that i bring him up. I'd rather focus on what the Reds have than what they missed out on.

You could say i developed a bit.

Benihana
04-29-2010, 02:36 PM
Interesting that the Astros and other scouts like Drew Stubbs...

Great, trade him for Carlos Lee and $20MM.

I'm only half kidding.

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 02:47 PM
If they are over slot, someone at the commissioners office does, yes. Whether it is Bud himself, I do not know.

That's amazing. Reminds me of red China. If I was an owner I'd tell the Commissioner's office that it's my money and sue me if you don't like it.

Until there is a wage scale it's none of Bud's business

Benihana
04-29-2010, 02:49 PM
That's amazing. Reminds me of red China. If I was an owner I'd tell the Commissioner's office that it's my money and sue me if you don't like it.

Until there is a wage scale it's none of Bud's business

x2

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 03:07 PM
That's amazing. Reminds me of red China. If I was an owner I'd tell the Commissioner's office that it's my money and sue me if you don't like it.

Until there is a wage scale it's none of Bud's business

Technically its just like the salary cap that does exist in baseball. The punishment isn't anything that hurts you, so you can just go around it. There is a wage scale set for the picks, but there isn't a real punishment for it. Just like the cap that exists in baseball. You can go over it if you want, just pay a small amount of money and its ok.

Edd Roush
04-29-2010, 03:19 PM
He can already out play Kearns in the field and on the bases, thus his value is not only in need of being measured differently, but also does the application of his value to the Reds, Kearns was just another corner OF on a team loaded with those types.

BTW, no one mentions Linnicum more than you do, I'd be hard pressed to even find second place in that race.

Thanks for saying pretty much exactly what I was going to say for me, woy.

Orenda
04-29-2010, 03:19 PM
. I think about 80% of the players taken between 1 and 50 signed for over slot.

So therefore the slotting system is under the market value for top amateur talent.

If a team wants to spend to bring in talent via the draft or free agency, why shouldn't they be able to? Who cares how a team decides to allocate their resources. Shouldn't the team be free to choose between paying a top amateur as a future investment over some journeyman reliever, utility player, etc.

TRF
04-29-2010, 03:26 PM
Guys with 10+ year MLB careers aren't busts. They may be disappointments, but they are not busts in the slightest. A bust is a guy who doesn't have anything resembling an MLB career, much less nearly 18 career WAR.

He was signed to a LTC by Washington. He's made $20M in 9 years topping 100 games played in a season only 3 time. He was a top ten pick.

Bust City.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 03:28 PM
So therefore the slotting system is under the market value for top amateur talent.

If a team wants to spend to bring in talent via the draft or free agency, why shouldn't they be able to? Who cares how a team decides to allocate their resources. Shouldn't the team be free to choose between paying a top amateur as a future investment over some journeyman reliever, utility player, etc.

While I get your point, the system is in place to make it 'fair'. The draft is set up to give the worst teams the 'best talent'. The problem is, the best talent often slides down to the teams willing to pay the most and it circumvents the entire process when teams don't follow the 'slot'. However given that it works that way, I have no issue with teams doing how they currently do it. Until there are hard rules in place, you should do everything within the rules to make your team the best you can.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 03:29 PM
He was signed to a LTC by Washington. He's made $20M in 9 years topping 100 games played in a season only 3 time. He was a top ten pick.

Bust City.

You are describing a disappointment. Not a bust.

TRF
04-29-2010, 03:36 PM
You are describing a disappointment. Not a bust.

No. Disappointing was Oswalt's 2009 season. It was out of the norm for what you expect of him. If Heyward OPS's .780 after all the hype, but then goes on to have a stellar career, his rookie season might be a little disappointing. It's a big word to describe something that is actually small. Like "Tommy, I'm disappointed you threw the rock through the neighbor's window..."

4 seasons out of 8 not playing 100 games? 5 years sub .800 OPS? 2 years sub .700?

bust.

He's 30, and possibly, finally, healthy. He's playing for a contract somewhere next year, maybe playing for his continued career.

But yeah, he's more than a disappointment.

Caveat Emperor
04-29-2010, 03:45 PM
You are describing a disappointment. Not a bust.

A bust never makes the show or never sticks in the show.

Brandon Larson was a bust.
Chris Gruler was a bust.
David Espinosa was a bust.
Ty Howington was a bust.
Ryan Wagner was a bust.

Austin Kearns? Far from it. Dude has over 3,300 PAs as a big leaguer and a .785 OPS (a career OPS+ of 105). He's stuck in the bigs since his initial call up. He's been a disappointment based on his draft pedigree and projections, but he's been far from a bust.

Kearns is the Trent Dilfer of baseball. Dilfer never reached anything close what he was projected to coming out of Fresno State. Dude had a lot of unspectacular years with Tampa, bounced around the league for another 8 years and lucked into a championship ring along the way. Disappointing? Sure -- but Heath Shuler was the real bust of that draft.

TRF
04-29-2010, 03:55 PM
A bust never makes the show or never sticks in the show.
that's what? 99% of all minor leaguers?

If the MLB had NFL's contract system, Kearns would be out of baseball (non guaranteed contracts). JimBo gave him a 3 year deal, and I'm sure the fans in WAS would like their money back.

NFL and MLB, apples and oranges.

The NFL would not allow players like Kearns or Milton of Chan Ho Park to still have anything resembling a meaningful position on the team. Dilfer was a disappointment, sure, and yet someone thought enough of him to hand the starting reins to a team, that won a superbowl. After that, he was pretty much just a backup, insurance in case a starter went down. I guess that's what Kearns is now.

In the NFL, if his bonus was paid out enough, he'd have been cut in his 4th year. If he managed to survive that, he'd have been cut two years later.

Apples and Oranges.

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 03:57 PM
If Kearns is a bust then what was Johnny Oliver?

Kearns was the Reds best 1st rd draft pick since Barry Larkin

Brutus
04-29-2010, 03:59 PM
that's what? 99% of all minor leaguers?

If the MLB had NFL's contract system, Kearns would be out of baseball (non guaranteed contracts). JimBo gave him a 3 year deal, and I'm sure the fans in WAS would like their money back.

NFL and MLB, apples and oranges.

The NFL would not allow players like Kearns or Milton of Chan Ho Park to still have anything resembling a meaningful position on the team. Dilfer was a disappointment, sure, and yet someone thought enough of him to hand the starting reins to a team, that won a superbowl. After that, he was pretty much just a backup, insurance in case a starter went down. I guess that's what Kearns is now.

In the NFL, if his bonus was paid out enough, he'd have been cut in his 4th year. If he managed to survive that, he'd have been cut two years later.

Apples and Oranges.

In a 20-year span I looked at, based on some things I posted last summer when we had a Stubbs discussion, 33% of first-round picks make the Major Leagues long enough to gain free agency (6 years of service). If I recall correctly, close to half didn't make it at all.

Based on that, someone that is a productive major leaguer for at least a few seasons is not a bust, in my opinion.

TRF
04-29-2010, 04:00 PM
If Kearns is a bust then what was Johnny Oliver?

Kearns was the Reds best 1st rd draft pick since Barry Larkin

That's just sad.

Hopefully Jay Bruce changes that.

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 04:01 PM
TRF, you are a tough grader but you are consistent and I can live with that. I'm glad you weren't my high school teacher :)

TRF
04-29-2010, 04:02 PM
In a 20-year span I looked at, based on some things I posted last summer when we had a Stubbs discussion, 33% of first-round picks make the Major Leagues long enough to gain free agency (6 years of service). If I recall correctly, close to half didn't make it at all.

Based on that, someone that is a productive major leaguer for at least a few seasons is not a bust, in my opinion.

If it weren't for JimBo giving him a 3 year deal, I wonder if he'd have even been on the WAS roster the last two years. I'd have DFA'd him after 2008.

bucksfan2
04-29-2010, 04:31 PM
If it weren't for JimBo giving him a 3 year deal, I wonder if he'd have even been on the WAS roster the last two years. I'd have DFA'd him after 2008.

Kearns would have had value as a minor league FA similar to what he was this season. Heck if his thumb issue was the problem all along then he may have opted to have that checked out years ago.

Scrap Irony
04-29-2010, 04:33 PM
In a 20-year span...33% of first-round picks make the Major Leagues long enough to gain free agency (6 years of service). If I recall correctly, close to half didn't make it at all.

Quoted for truth. How anyone could argue that Kearns was a bust is beyond me. In short, if you've got your full major league pension, the team that drafted you did pretty well, especially if they drafted you outside the top ten.

Scrap Irony
04-29-2010, 04:35 PM
TRF, you are a tough grader but you are consistent and I can live with that. I'm glad you weren't my high school teacher :)

TRF's grading scale would be akin to:

94-100 A
A-list players are perennial All-Stars, like Pujols, ARod, Jeter, and Halladay.

88-93 B
B-list players are one ro two-time All-Stars like Adam Dunn, who are largely really good, but have a hole or two in their game.

87-0 F
Everyone else

TRF
04-29-2010, 04:47 PM
TRF's grading scale would be akin to:

94-100 A
A-list players are perennial All-Stars, like Pujols, ARod, Jeter, and Halladay.

88-93 B
B-list players are one ro two-time All-Stars like Adam Dunn, who are largely really good, but have a hole or two in their game.

87-0 F
Everyone else

no. I just place a certain value on getting paid to ACTUALLY play. I think guys that play 150 games a year are the ones you want. I'm talking starters, not bench players. I know roles for players and that they are needed and have value.

But he was supposed to be DiMaggio, remember? DiMaggio's hit streak was almost as long as one of Kearns seasons.

Let me put it this way, since he was traded, was there ever a season you wanted Kearns back?

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 04:49 PM
Let me put it this way, since he was traded, was there ever a season you wanted Kearns back?

Would have liked Kearns in 2007. 3-4 win player.

You still seem to be confusing bust with disappointment though. As CE said, busts don't have MLB careers or even make the majors for a cup of coffee. Disappointments don't become what you thought. There is a MAJOR difference between the two things.

TRF
04-29-2010, 05:10 PM
Would have liked Kearns in 2007. 3-4 win player.

You still seem to be confusing bust with disappointment though. As CE said, busts don't have MLB careers or even make the majors for a cup of coffee. Disappointments don't become what you thought. There is a MAJOR difference between the two things.

your opinion not mine. You might want to keep that in mind as you seem to have an absolute view on things that really are your opinion. (I'm guilty of that too.)

To me, Kearns was a bust, especially for the Reds. He provided almost no value as a player, and didn't even fetch value in a trade. That made him a bust. He was ABYSMAL as a Nat. And for the contract he got from JimBo, THAT made him a bust. Now at age 30, his only hope was as a non roster invitee with no guarantee of a job except for AAA. I'm glad he's playing well now. I hope he's fully healed, but IMO, he's been a bust.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 05:15 PM
.266/.355/.411/.765 for 3.5 million bucks, if that's a 3-4 win player count me among the unimpressed, especially from a corner player in this day and age.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 05:15 PM
your opinion not mine. You might want to keep that in mind as you seem to have an absolute view on things that really are your opinion. (I'm guilty of that too.)

To me, Kearns was a bust, especially for the Reds. He provided almost no value as a player, and didn't even fetch value in a trade. That made him a bust. He was ABYSMAL as a Nat. And for the contract he got from JimBo, THAT made him a bust. Now at age 30, his only hope was as a non roster invitee with no guarantee of a job except for AAA. I'm glad he's playing well now. I hope he's fully healed, but IMO, he's been a bust.

Austin Kearns provided the Reds with over 10 WAR before he was traded. That is over 2 wins a season. How on earth is that a bust? Only in the world of 'first rounders must be 3 time all stars or better' is that a bust, and that world is way out of line with reality.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 05:15 PM
.266/.355/.411/.765 for 3.5 million bucks, if that's a 3-4 win player count me among the unimpressed, especially from a corner player in this day and age.

Also came with arguably the best corner defense in baseball.

TRF
04-29-2010, 05:20 PM
I have no words. Is the bar set so low that a guy can't manage 120 games regardless of the reason why is considered to have value? It's a shame, but injury or not, he couldn't stay in the lineup.


Also came with arguably the best corner defense in baseball.

When he played, sure. Hard to do when you can't get in the game. the circumstances of why are irrelevant. He just didn't get in the game enough.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 05:22 PM
I have no words. Is the bar set so low that a guy can't manage 120 games regardless of the reason why is considered to have value? It's a shame, but injury or not, he couldn't stay in the lineup.

Injuries or not, as a Red he averaged over 2 wins per season. That is a darn solid player.

Scrap Irony
04-29-2010, 05:25 PM
no. I just place a certain value on getting paid to ACTUALLY play. I think guys that play 150 games a year are the ones you want. I'm talking starters, not bench players. I know roles for players and that they are needed and have value.

But he was supposed to be DiMaggio, remember? DiMaggio's hit streak was almost as long as one of Kearns seasons.

Let me put it this way, since he was traded, was there ever a season you wanted Kearns back?

And Colt Griffin was supposed to be Roger Clemens.

I don't care what people are supposed to be. I care what they are.

And Kearns is a useful major league player.

His Top 10 Most Similar Players, per Baseball Reference:
1. Mark Whiten (962)
2. David Dellucci (958)
3. Mike Davis (952)
4. Craig Monroe (952)
5. Jimmie Hall (951)
6. Eric Hinske (951)
7. Rip Repulski (950)
8. Bernie Carbo (947)
9. Michael Cuddyer (946)
10.George Altman (944)

Busts, all. ;)

TRF
04-29-2010, 05:37 PM
Also came with arguably the best corner defense in baseball.


And Colt Griffin was supposed to be Roger Clemens.

I don't care what people are supposed to be. I care what they are.

And Kearns is a useful major league player.

His Top 10 Most Similar Players, per Baseball Reference:
1. Mark Whiten (962)
2. David Dellucci (958)
3. Mike Davis (952)
4. Craig Monroe (952)
5. Jimmie Hall (951)
6. Eric Hinske (951)
7. Rip Repulski (950)
8. Bernie Carbo (947)
9. Michael Cuddyer (946)
10.George Altman (944)

Busts, all. ;)

Whiten. 5th round pick, had a couple of nice seasons, lifetime .756 OPS. And a 4HR game against the Reds. yeah, superstar. Couldn't find 1B with a map until his 5th season, Also had a lot of trouble staying in a lineup. And he's the closest comp. And if there ever was a player whose production spike screamed PED use, Whiten might have been one of those guys.

okey doke.

traderumor
04-29-2010, 05:47 PM
your opinion not mine. You might want to keep that in mind as you seem to have an absolute view on things that really are your opinion. (I'm guilty of that too.)

To me, Kearns was a bust, especially for the Reds. He provided almost no value as a player, and didn't even fetch value in a trade. That made him a bust. He was ABYSMAL as a Nat. And for the contract he got from JimBo, THAT made him a bust. Now at age 30, his only hope was as a non roster invitee with no guarantee of a job except for AAA. I'm glad he's playing well now. I hope he's fully healed, but IMO, he's been a bust.If it is just competing opinions, then the discussion ends there. Words mean something and the first part to an intelligent discussion is to be talking the same language--to agree on the meaning of terms. So, how do you define bust? Then, readers can decide the best use of the term.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 05:48 PM
Also came with arguably the best corner defense in baseball.
Argue away his hitting was abysml, just crap.

traderumor
04-29-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't care what people are supposed to be. I care what they are.

That points out a weakness in TRF's definition of bust, which seems to be focusing on reputation or that nasty "potential" instead of evaluating what a player has actually accomplished. In other words, is every "the next Willie Mays" a bust if they do not have a comparable career to the Say Hey Kid? By such a standard, Eric Davis has been deemed a "bust" by some. Personally, I do not think "prospect" expectations, unless determined to be flawless and fair, should enter the evaluation process when looking back at a career.

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 05:57 PM
Argue away his hitting was abysml, just crap.

His hitting was slightly below average for a right fielder. His defense was perhaps the best in the league for a right fielder.

Scrap Irony
04-29-2010, 06:01 PM
Is Whiten a bust because he has a lifetime OPS south of 800 or is he a success because he's a fifth round draft pick?

Other 1998 1st round offensive players picked after Kearns:
Felipe Lopez
Carlos Pena
Sean Burroughs
Adam Everett
Tony Torcato
Jason Tyner
Bubba Crosby
Andy Brown
Chip Ambres

Burrell and JD Drew were picked ahead of Kearns, so you can't fault the Reds for that. Of those picked afterward, only Pena has a higher OPS. Add in the second round and Adam Dunn is ahead of him as well. Go through the first five rounds and Aubrey Huff is also higher. That's fourth in OPS out of more than 150 picks (though, to be fair, just over 50 of those were pitchers).

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 06:04 PM
Is Whiten a bust because he has a lifetime OPS south of 800 or is he a success because he's a fifth round draft pick?

Other 1998 1st round offensive players picked after Kearns:
Felipe Lopez
Carlos Pena
Sean Burroughs
Adam Everett
Tony Torcato
Jason Tyner
Bubba Crosby
Andy Brown
Chip Ambres

Burrell and JD Drew were picked ahead of Kearns, so you can't fault the Reds for that. Of those picked afterward, only Pena has a higher OPS. Add in the second round and Adam Dunn is ahead of him as well. Go through the first five rounds and Aubrey Huff is also higher. That's fourth in OPS out of more than 150 picks (though, to be fair, just over 50 of those were pitchers).
Bust city.

TRF
04-29-2010, 07:33 PM
Lopez has had a much better career than Kearns. Pena too.

But if his closest comp is a 5th round pick like Whiten, when Kearns was a 1st round top ten pick? And tell me you don't think Whiten's 5th year surge in power is natural.

Kearns, as a 1st round pick barely showed up for the Reds and what he fetched in trade was, well, dreck.

B-U-S-T

11larkin11
04-29-2010, 07:55 PM
Drew Stubbs...

westofyou
04-29-2010, 08:39 PM
Lopez has had a much better career than Kearns. Pena too.

But if his closest comp is a 5th round pick like Whiten, when Kearns was a 1st round top ten pick? And tell me you don't think Whiten's 5th year surge in power is natural.

Kearns, as a 1st round pick barely showed up for the Reds and what he fetched in trade was, well, dreck.

B-U-S-T

Pena?

You're way wrong Pena hasn't seen a MLB field in 2 years, his line is .253/.307 /.447 saying that with his horrible defense that he's had a better career than a guy who is playing (and starting) today is just plain wrong, nothing else can be said, it's not true.

And using a guys draft slot (a guy who still plays) as a penalty and not noting the moronic move by Pena to insist on a MLB contract is also selective memory.

Cedric
04-29-2010, 08:46 PM
Pena?

You're way wrong Pena hasn't seen a MLB field in 2 years, his line is .253/.307 /.447 saying that with his horrible defense that he's had a better career than a guy who is playing (and starting) today is just plain wrong, nothing else can be said, it's not true.

And using a guys draft slot (a guy who still plays) as a penalty and not noting the moronic move by Pena to insist on a MLB contract is also selective memory.

Carlos Pena.

westofyou
04-29-2010, 08:56 PM
Carlos Pena.

Oh... nevermind. pena is like smith in this game.


Still wrong, Pena has had some monster years

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 09:26 PM
Whiten. 5th round pick, had a couple of nice seasons, lifetime .756 OPS. And a 4HR game against the Reds. yeah, superstar. Couldn't find 1B with a map until his 5th season, Also had a lot of trouble staying in a lineup. And he's the closest comp. And if there ever was a player whose production spike screamed PED use, Whiten might have been one of those guys.

okey doke.

I don't agree with him at all but he is consistent and I admire that. I really do :thumbup:

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 09:27 PM
This thread also shows me why he's so hard on Drew Stubbs. To think all this time I thought it was because of Lincecum...

Cedric
04-29-2010, 09:31 PM
Stubbs just went 1st to 3rd on a hard hit ball to LF. A great play that is a HUGE part of why Stubbs has so much potential.

Part of the GREY area of baseball that is so important.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 09:36 PM
Stubbs just went 1st to 3rd on a hard hit ball to LF. A great play that is a HUGE part of why Stubbs has so much potential.

Part of the GREY area of baseball that is so important.

Are you suggesting that intangibles exist? lol

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 09:37 PM
Are you suggesting that intangibles exist? lol

That isn't an intangible. We can measure the value of that.

Brutus
04-29-2010, 09:48 PM
That isn't an intangible. We can measure the value of that.

Yes, but I don't think he's talking about simply taking extra bases on the basepaths... I think he's referring to the aspect of having heady, smart players that pay attention and do the little things that add up.

Granted, since that particular play is something that can be measured, it's not like it's completely an intangible, but I think I get where he's coming from.

Sea Ray
04-29-2010, 10:12 PM
Stubbs just went 1st to 3rd on a hard hit ball to LF. A great play that is a HUGE part of why Stubbs has so much potential.

Part of the GREY area of baseball that is so important.

And now Votto just hammered a HR while Stubbs was irritating Oswalt from 2B. I know Stubbs has got to get his BA off the interstate and all but anyone else notice that just about every Reds rally has Stubbs involved somehow?

dougdirt
04-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Stubbs OBP has been climbing. Currently at .308 despite such a terrible hit rate. Of all the Reds problems, I really don't think Stubbs is near the top at all.

kaldaniels
04-29-2010, 10:30 PM
He was signed to a LTC by Washington. He's made $20M in 9 years topping 100 games played in a season only 3 time. He was a top ten pick.

Bust City.

What percentage of all top ten picks are busts in your eyes...cause I'd guess AK has had a better career than most top tens...and if my gut is wrong, I'm sure I'm not far off.

TRF
04-29-2010, 11:12 PM
This thread also shows me why he's so hard on Drew Stubbs. To think all this time I thought it was because of Lincecum...

it was originally. But then Dorn out hit him at every level. And Valaika too. And worse, the Reds kept rushing him despite not developing him properly.

I still think he can be an offensive force, a 25 HR guy, but not with this slap hitter approach Dusty wants.