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The Operator
09-19-2010, 12:25 AM
HR #19 tonight and now at an OPS of .750

Factor that in with his amazing CF play and he really is a player you have to love having on this team. I want Stubbs and Bruce to be patrolling this OF for a long, long time.

marcshoe
09-19-2010, 12:54 AM
Tylenol is processed through ones liver, I'll pass.

Vicodin just makes me sleepy

You're lucky; I take one and I'm up all night.

oregonred
09-19-2010, 01:40 AM
Major kudos to Drew for answering the call everyday and having a spectacular August and September. At a time the club was desperate for MLB calibar outfielders, Drew has come up big in some important games.

Now at .750 OPS for the season, over .800 OPS since the break and now over .900 OPS in Aug/Sept. Add in his excellent range and CF now ranks after 1B, RF and maybe 2B as the least of the Reds problems over the next 3-4 seasons.

Excellent first full season by Drew.

VR
09-19-2010, 01:51 AM
Major kudos to Drew for answering the call everyday and having a spectacular August and September. At a time the club was desperate for MLB calibar outfielders, Drew has come up big in some important games.

Now at .750 OPS for the season, over .800 OPS since the break and now over .900 OPS in Aug/Sept. Add in his excellent range and CF now ranks after 1B, RF and maybe 2B as the least of the Reds problems over the next 3-4 seasons.

Excellent first full season by Drew.

+1

CrackerJack
09-19-2010, 02:28 AM
+1


+ 2

WebScorpion
09-19-2010, 02:48 AM
Add in his excellent range and CF now ranks after 1B, RF and maybe 2B as the least of the Reds problems over the next 3-4 seasons.


I'd add catcher to that list...I'm guessing that Mesoraco and Grandal will ensure that we have a smooth transition from Hernandez/Hanigan to whatever the future tandem becomes.

Larkin Fan
09-19-2010, 03:24 AM
Tylenol is processed through ones liver, I'll pass.

Vicodin just makes me sleepy

Good luck finding any oral medication that isn't processed by the liver...

The Operator
09-19-2010, 03:33 AM
Good luck finding any oral medication that isn't processed by the liver...Yes, but isn't acetaminophen supposed to be particularly hard on the liver? That's how I've always thought of it.

Topcat
09-19-2010, 03:40 AM
I agree. My mother recently had major surgery and became addicted to her painkillers--while under hospital care. Those drugs are every bit as dangerous as any of the illegal ones.

Absolutely fact!:thumbup: Besides being a Medic I also have a Pharmacy Degree. Ps the elderly are the most addicted to pharmateucital drugs. Why ? because they work and take away there pain.

Topcat
09-19-2010, 03:43 AM
HR #19 tonight and now at an OPS of .750

Factor that in with his amazing CF play and he really is a player you have to love having on this team. I want Stubbs and Bruce to be patrolling this OF for a long, long time.


Maybe the minor league forum bashers of Dirt will lighten up, btw we both wanted Lincecum but smiled and wished Stubbs well.

dougdirt
09-19-2010, 04:05 AM
Maybe the minor league forum bashers of Dirt will lighten up, btw we both wanted Lincecum but smiled and wished Stubbs well.

Eh, I wanted nothing to do with Lincecum either, just wanted 'anyone but Stubbs' on draft day. Still, after seeing him play, I changed my tune a little bit and became more and more a believer. As for the bashing.... doesn't really matter to me. It just cracks me up when someone brings something up that I said to 'show me' when I don't think I have ever done that because it just doesn't enhance any conversation at all and 99.9% of the time, has nothing to do with the point being talked about at the time. Stubbs right now is doing a little worse than I predicted at the start of the year (had him at .345 OBP/.425 SLG at the start of the year), but is well within line for it. Good year for him, hopefully he can keep it going as he moves forward. The guy has his warts as a player, but even with those, he can be a real good player.

The Operator
09-19-2010, 05:20 AM
I'll say one thing, the power is LEGIT. I couldn't post in some of those old Stubbs debates on the ORG because they took place before I was called up, but I remember his power potential was certainly a polarizing topic.

After watching him this year, I'm convinced without a doubt. He may never reach it, but I think he's got 30 homer potential. When he gets a ball good, my goodness, does it ever travel. He hits majestic home runs.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2010, 01:07 PM
It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Stubbs posts a 30 HR/30 SB season or two in his career.

edabbs44
09-19-2010, 01:29 PM
Eh, I wanted nothing to do with Lincecum either, just wanted 'anyone but Stubbs' on draft day. Still, after seeing him play, I changed my tune a little bit and became more and more a believer. As for the bashing.... doesn't really matter to me. It just cracks me up when someone brings something up that I said to 'show me' when I don't think I have ever done that because it just doesn't enhance any conversation at all and 99.9% of the time, has nothing to do with the point being talked about at the time. Stubbs right now is doing a little worse than I predicted at the start of the year (had him at .345 OBP/.425 SLG at the start of the year), but is well within line for it. Good year for him, hopefully he can keep it going as he moves forward. The guy has his warts as a player, but even with those, he can be a real good player.

I wanted pitching whether it was Scherzer, Lincecum, Drabek or aby other top pitcher. Stubbs scared the hell out of me. If he continues to improve then the pick will obviously end up being a good one. But he needs to continue to improve, guys with his offensive profile scare me a bit. Not saying that he cannot continue to produce, but he could easily go south as well.'

The pick that really got me bent was the Watson pick. Ugh.

jojo
09-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Eh, I wanted nothing to do with Lincecum either, just wanted 'anyone but Stubbs' on draft day. Still, after seeing him play, I changed my tune a little bit and became more and more a believer. As for the bashing.... doesn't really matter to me. It just cracks me up when someone brings something up that I said to 'show me' when I don't think I have ever done that because it just doesn't enhance any conversation at all and 99.9% of the time, has nothing to do with the point being talked about at the time. Stubbs right now is doing a little worse than I predicted at the start of the year (had him at .345 OBP/.425 SLG at the start of the year), but is well within line for it. Good year for him, hopefully he can keep it going as he moves forward. The guy has his warts as a player, but even with those, he can be a real good player.

Dude. You're NEVER allowed to change your mind as more data comes in or simply because you've learned alot over some period of time. From here on out, you must begin every post with a mea culpa. :cool:

TRF
09-19-2010, 04:29 PM
nobody argued that Stubbs wouldn't make it more than me. I became convinced his power would never develop due to approach, not tools. And I'm thrilled that he seems to be maturing as a player. He's very streaky, but the defense (which i never argued against) is always there.

As an aside, it really is ok to disagree about players. Stubbs, Bailey, Cueto, Heisey. We all have opinions, and just because we disagree doesn't mean we don't root for them everyday.

Unless of course the name on the back is Taveras. Kidding.

mostly. :)

membengal
09-20-2010, 08:43 PM
That homerun in the first tonite makes Stubbs a 20/20 player in his first full season in the major leagues.

Just a delightful year from him. His OPS over. 750 for the year, at least through the first at-bat tonight.

The Operator
09-20-2010, 08:45 PM
Bruce and Stubbs, Stubbs and Bruce. I like that combo.

HR #20 and he went the other way to do it.

20/20 for the year. Impressive rookie campaign!

fearofpopvol1
09-20-2010, 08:45 PM
Has any Reds player gone 20/20 in the first full season as a Red? I know he's not technically a rookie because he had too many ABs last year, but a 20/20 campaign in your first full season is pretty awesome.

Brutus
09-20-2010, 08:47 PM
Bruce and Stubbs, Stubbs and Bruce. I like that combo.

HR #20 and he went the other way to do it.

20/20 for the year. Impressive rookie campaign!

Finkle & Einhorn, Einhorn & Finkle. In it together? How? Why?

The Operator
09-20-2010, 08:52 PM
Finkle & Einhorn, Einhorn & Finkle. In it together? How? Why?Finkle IS Einhorn! Einhorn IS Finkle!! Einhorn is a MAN!

....Einhorn is a.... MAN!?!?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Z6uxEekJC5Q1JM:http://www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2001/11/ace_ventura_pet_detective_r4_002.jpg&t=1

dougdirt
09-20-2010, 08:52 PM
Has any Reds player gone 20/20 in the first full season as a Red? I know he's not technically a rookie because he had too many ABs last year, but a 20/20 campaign in your first full season is pretty awesome.

Vada Pinson did it age 20. Bobby Tolan did it in his first full season, but he has mutliple partial seasons before then. Eric Davis did it in his first full season, but had two partial seasons before that.

The Operator
09-20-2010, 08:52 PM
Vada Pinson did it age 20. Bobby Tolan did it in his first full season, but he has mutliple partial seasons before then. Eric Davis did it in his first full season, but had two partial seasons before that.That's some pretty decent company to be in.

Mario-Rijo
09-20-2010, 09:32 PM
Finkle IS Einhorn! Einhorn IS Finkle!! Einhorn is a MAN!

....Einhorn is a.... MAN!?!?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Z6uxEekJC5Q1JM:http://www.dvdactive.com/images/reviews/screenshot/2001/11/ace_ventura_pet_detective_r4_002.jpg&t=1


if the Lieutenant is indeed a woman, as she claims to be... then, my friend, she is suffering from the worst case of hemorrhoids I have *ever* seen! [turns Lois around to reveal a bulge on her behind] *That's* why Roger Podacter is dead! He found Captain Winkie!"
[all the men in the vicinity start throwing up because Einhorn has kissed them]

:bowrofl: Hilarious movie!

fearofpopvol1
09-21-2010, 12:43 AM
Vada Pinson did it age 20. Bobby Tolan did it in his first full season, but he has mutliple partial seasons before then. Eric Davis did it in his first full season, but had two partial seasons before that.

wow, that is some elite company right there. only 3 other guys, that's no joke.

medford
09-21-2010, 01:23 AM
:bowrofl: Hilarious movie!

And this is where the circle gets completed for me on the earlier Hamilton/vicadon conversation. I had my wisdom teeth pulled the day I rented that movie and watched while on whatever painkillers they gave me. From that day forward, I never found Jim Carey to be all that funny and I know its b/c of the meds I was on that day.

Big Klu
09-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Vada Pinson did it age 20. Bobby Tolan did it in his first full season, but he has mutliple partial seasons before then. Eric Davis did it in his first full season, but had two partial seasons before that.

Bobby Tolan had two seasons with St. Louis (1967 and 1968) in which he had nearly 300 PA's and played in over half of the Cardinals' games before he went 20/20 with the Reds. I would not consider 1969 as his first full season.

TRF
09-21-2010, 09:23 AM
Believe it or not, Dunn was 1 SB from doing this in his first full season.

westofyou
09-21-2010, 09:30 AM
Bobby Tolan had two seasons with St. Louis (1967 and 1968) in which he had nearly 300 PA's and played in over half of the Cardinals' games before he went 20/20 with the Reds. I would not consider 1969 as his first full season.

Not by a long shot

reds44
09-28-2010, 11:27 PM
.240/.275/.285/.559
.205/.238/.344/.582

Willy Tavers and Corey Patterson, the whipping boys of redszone (and rightfully so) the last two season. Dusty and Jocketty would brutally ripped for having them on the team, and batting them leadoff.

I understand here at redzone we all love our prospects, but the fact that it's nearly silent how bad Drew Stubbs has been is surprising.

.176/.287/.257/.544

Drew Stubbs has actually managed to be worse than both of them, offensively. It really should come as a surprise to nobody that he's been bad, because he wasn't any good in the minors.

Stubbs needs to be sent to AAA, and try to figure something out to cutdown on his strikeouts with his swing. He doesn't hit for any power, so there's no reason for him to strikeout as much as he does.

I have no idea if Heisey is better, and he may not be, but something has to be changed at this point.
Hahahahahaha.

The Operator
09-28-2010, 11:44 PM
Hahahahahaha.
It takes a big man to quote himself on a post like that. Kudos, sir!

Homer Bailey
09-29-2010, 03:23 AM
Anyone going to still say he sucks near the wall? :)

membengal
09-29-2010, 06:36 AM
Drew Stubbs' kinda stunning stat line with 5 games to go:

.251/.324/.434 for a .758 OPS. 21 HR. 26 SB (only 6 CS).

And some defense. I think in some thread or another I was hoping for a .725 OPS from Stubbs this season. He has been a delight and rapidly becoming one of my favorite players. The thing with him is that I continue to totally not know what to expect from him going forward, and the unpredictability is kinda fun...to me, anyway.

UKFlounder
09-29-2010, 08:43 AM
I've said it before and I will say it again, but I think the fact that he has played pretty much all season, even during slumps, may be the best thing that ever happened to him. There were times when the Reds may have been justified to send him to AAA or at least to bench him for a while (I know they did briefly when Heisly was hot for a week or so), but they have kept running him out there a vast majority of the time, letting him develop and learn.

He still has plenty of room to improve, of course, but his overall performance in his first full season has, despite its ups and downs, been not bad at all.

Sometimes, you just have to let a guy learn and develop by playing him and putting up with the growing pains. I hope time will prove that's what happened in 2010 for Drew Stubbs and that he can be even better in the future.

lollipopcurve
09-29-2010, 08:59 AM
Anyone going to still say he sucks near the wall?

He's getting better. :)

edabbs44
09-29-2010, 10:19 AM
Just wanted to say kudos to management on the handling of both Stubbs and Bruce this season. The fact that they stuck by them and had them work through their issues during a pennant chase should likely be very beneficial in the long run. Especially when you see them playing like they have been down the stretch.

It has worked out well for both the team and both Jay and Drew on a personal level. These guys have grown as players and gotten a ton of invaluable experience. Awesome stuff, hopefully they build off of this and help turn this team into a perennial contender.

OnBaseMachine
09-29-2010, 12:24 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I am extremely excited to have Jay Bruce in RF and Drew Stubbs in CF for the next decade.

dougdirt
09-29-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I am extremely excited to have Jay Bruce in RF and Drew Stubbs in CF for the next decade.

I am pretty excited about having both playing for me in October.

Brutus
09-29-2010, 07:07 PM
Drew Stubbs in just over a first season's worth of at-bats (690 since last year)...

.255-29-90-37
.324/.435/.759

Throw in some excellent defense and whoa mama I'll take it!

That's projecting to be a 30/30 GG centerfielder with .800 OPS potential. Yes please!

nemesis
09-30-2010, 06:00 AM
I don't know about you guys, but I am extremely excited to have Jay Bruce in RF and Drew Stubbs in CF for the next decade.

I agree whole heartedly.

It would be a plus if somehow, someway Alonso can make the transition into LF in the offseason. I have joined Hokie in believing this kid needs to be kept. He just has a think about him that says success...His offensive upside could easily outweigh his defensive shortcomings out there. There would be 100 HR potential in the OF between those 3 and at least 4 more years of control. I almost get giddy thinking about it.

membengal
10-01-2010, 06:44 AM
After another blast of a homerun last night and four more RBI he is up to a .767 OPS with 22 HR and 77 rbi on the season. Which, I think, has to crush pretty much any reasonable expectations anyone had.

When the riddle of how the Reds won the NL Central this year is puzzled out after the season, a lot of time will be spent, I think, on just how good Drew Stubbs has been.

HokieRed
10-01-2010, 08:49 AM
He's getting better. :)

That's what he showed the ability to do every year in the minors; it's been the best point in his favor all along. Obviously tremendously talented, he seems also to have the ability to identify what he needs to do and to learn how to do it. Very impressive combination.

TRF
10-01-2010, 10:22 AM
After another blast of a homerun last night and four more RBI he is up to a .767 OPS with 22 HR and 77 rbi on the season. Which, I think, has to crush pretty much any reasonable expectations anyone had.

When the riddle of how the Reds won the NL Central this year is puzzled out after the season, a lot of time will be spent, I think, on just how good Drew Stubbs has been.

It's more than i thought he was capable of at the beginning of the season. I came around on his power in June.

This isn't a back-handed compliment, but I think his overall numbers are better than his season, similar to Gomes, but not as bad as Gomes. He's still streaky. He had 3 fantastic months, and one of those was a Votto-like month, September. He also had 3 very bad months. Since the ASB, he's got an .847 OPS. I actually think he can be an .830+ OPS guy over the course of a season, possibly as soon as next year.

And that would make him the best CF in baseball.

god that burns to type, but in a good way. I've never enjoyed being wrong more.

Redsfan320
10-01-2010, 10:35 AM
If he could cut out about 50 strikeouts, I really think he could be an all-star next year.

320

traderumor
10-01-2010, 10:42 AM
It's more than i thought he was capable of at the beginning of the season. I came around on his power in June.

This isn't a back-handed compliment, but I think his overall numbers are better than his season, similar to Gomes, but not as bad as Gomes. He's still streaky. He had 3 fantastic months, and one of those was a Votto-like month, September. He also had 3 very bad months. Since the ASB, he's got an .847 OPS. I actually think he can be an .830+ OPS guy over the course of a season, possibly as soon as next year.

And that would make him the best CF in baseball.

god that burns to type, but in a good way. I've never enjoyed being wrong more.His numbers are trending forward, esp. since his benching. I'd say he may have turned the corner, so I'm not sure its fair to say that "his overall numbers are better than his season."

dougdirt
10-01-2010, 11:47 AM
After another blast of a homerun last night and four more RBI he is up to a .767 OPS with 22 HR and 77 rbi on the season. Which, I think, has to crush pretty much any reasonable expectations anyone had.


Someone pegged him at a .770 OPS at the start of the year, though with a .345 OBP and .425 SLG.
http://redsminorleagues.com/2010/03/25/thursday-news-and-notes-14/

membengal
10-01-2010, 11:59 AM
Someone pegged him at a .770 OPS at the start of the year, though with a .345 OBP and .425 SLG.
http://redsminorleagues.com/2010/03/25/thursday-news-and-notes-14/

Yes, but for the longest time...you appeared unreasonable!

dougdirt
10-01-2010, 12:12 PM
Yes, but for the longest time...you appeared unreasonable!

Ha. I guess that is one way we could look at it :thumbup:

TRF
10-01-2010, 12:27 PM
His numbers are trending forward, esp. since his benching. I'd say he may have turned the corner, so I'm not sure its fair to say that "his overall numbers are better than his season."

well you could discount what happened prior to the benching. I'd rather see the big picture though. And the big picture is the same as it always has been: can Drew Stubbs adjust?

My biggest complaint was not with Stubbs but with how he was handled 2009 was the first time since 2007 that he played at one level for the bulk of the season. As doug pointed out so often, Stubbs was a raw talent, so why the rush in 2008? it wasn't like he dominated any levels warranting the promotion. Pitchers adjusted to Stubbs quickly in 08 and 09 and again in 2010. The question was, could he make adjustments to his game. Right now it seems he has, but I'd like his 50/50 season to become at least 60/40 next year. 4 months with an average to above average OPS. Then shoot for 5. The streakiness hurts his overall offensive game, but his last three months show that may be coming to an end too.

IslandRed
10-01-2010, 12:39 PM
When it comes right down to it, Stubbs still has a swing that's susceptible to slumps and streaks. But this year, it seems like he's worked his way out of the slumps quicker, and there's more power when he's not slumping. Going forward, he may still have those two-week stretches where he can't hit water falling out of a boat, but I think we'll be happy with the season-long production.

traderumor
10-01-2010, 12:45 PM
well you could discount what happened prior to the benching. I'd rather see the big picture though. And the big picture is the same as it always has been: can Drew Stubbs adjust?

My biggest complaint was not with Stubbs but with how he was handled 2009 was the first time since 2007 that he played at one level for the bulk of the season. As doug pointed out so often, Stubbs was a raw talent, so why the rush in 2008? it wasn't like he dominated any levels warranting the promotion. Pitchers adjusted to Stubbs quickly in 08 and 09 and again in 2010. The question was, could he make adjustments to his game. Right now it seems he has, but I'd like his 50/50 season to become at least 60/40 next year. 4 months with an average to above average OPS. Then shoot for 5. The streakiness hurts his overall offensive game, but his last three months show that may be coming to an end too.There's no "discounting," simply disagree that there is overall inflation in his YTD numbers and that the trend is toward someone showing adjustment.

But if you must, why discount the positive numbers as your post indicated we should?

RichRed
10-01-2010, 12:53 PM
After showing one of Stubbs' homers, MLB Network did a short graphic and commentary depicting MLB's true 5-tool players, with Stubbs getting credit as one who's emerging as that type of talent. That was fun to see.

dougdirt
10-01-2010, 01:13 PM
After showing one of Stubbs' homers, MLB Network did a short graphic and commentary depicting MLB's true 5-tool players, with Stubbs getting credit as one who's emerging as that type of talent. That was fun to see.

Apparently MLB Network doesn't know that there is a 'hit tool'. Stubbs may have the other 4, but he is never going to have a true 'hit tool' because he just swings and misses way too much.

TRF
10-01-2010, 01:19 PM
There's no "discounting," simply disagree that there is overall inflation in his YTD numbers and that the trend is toward someone showing adjustment.

But if you must, why discount the positive numbers as your post indicated we should?

You shouldn't. Both the good and bad are what he is this year. I'm hoping for more good next year as i stated in my last post.

wow. check this out. NL only.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/cf/split/182/league/nl/sort/OPS/order/true

All MLB CF's min 225 PA's since the ASB

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/position/cf/split/182/sort/OPS/minpa/225

That is who i hope he is.

The Operator
10-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Apparently MLB Network doesn't know that there is a 'hit tool'. Stubbs may have the other 4, but he is never going to have a true 'hit tool' because he just swings and misses way too much.Which probably means he should be a #5-6 type hitter instead of, say, a leadoff hitter then, no?

I wonder where The Reds see him fitting into the lineup long term.

VR
10-01-2010, 02:00 PM
When it comes right down to it, Stubbs still has a swing that's susceptible to slumps and streaks. But this year, it seems like he's worked his way out of the slumps quicker, and there's more power when he's not slumping. Going forward, he may still have those two-week stretches where he can't hit water falling out of a boat, but I think we'll be happy with the season-long production.

You've hit on a great point IR.

Stubbs swing has a bit of a loop to it....which slows it down just a bit in getting to the zone. It's a bit like he's 'loading up' like a softball player. He's got SUCH bat speed and power once he's in the zone, hopefully it can get rectified....and enable him to make better contact without sacrificing power.

The untapped elephant in the living room w/ him is the bunt/infield hits. If he can become a bit more proficient in that area....he will be one of the most dangerous players in the league.

IslandRed
10-01-2010, 02:24 PM
The untapped elephant in the living room w/ him is the bunt/infield hits. If he can become a bit more proficient in that area....he will be one of the most dangerous players in the league.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. He might end up Public Enemy #1 among National League third basemen -- the speed to easily beat out bunt singles if they don't play in, the power to leave exit wounds if they do.

OnBaseMachine
10-01-2010, 03:00 PM
Drew Stubbs = Mike Cameron?

Stubbs has been a 3 win player this season despite his defense being vastly underrated by UZR. UZR has him as basically a league average defender, he's been much, much better than that, IMO. Sure, he had a couple blunders early in the season but overall, he's played at a Gold Glove level. There are maybe one or two center fielders in all of baseball with comparable range to Stubbs.

bucksfan2
10-01-2010, 03:38 PM
You've hit on a great point IR.

Stubbs swing has a bit of a loop to it....which slows it down just a bit in getting to the zone. It's a bit like he's 'loading up' like a softball player. He's got SUCH bat speed and power once he's in the zone, hopefully it can get rectified....and enable him to make better contact without sacrificing power.

The untapped elephant in the living room w/ him is the bunt/infield hits. If he can become a bit more proficient in that area....he will be one of the most dangerous players in the league.

I think pretty much ever hitter in baseball is susceptible to slumps. There are very few players who can stay at an even keel level throughout the season. Those guys likely end up as league MVP's or have the last names of Pujols, Votto, etc.

Stubbs will always be a streaky player and I don't think anyone will doubt that. I do think if he can cut down on his strikeouts and make better contact he will be very very dangerous. A guy with his speed can turn a routine grounder to SS a bang bang play. It would be nice to see him improve his bunting just to add that threat to his game. I don't exactly want to see him sacrifice his power in an attempt to add a couple more bunt hits a year.

If Stubbs just goes through that natural progression of improving with experience he will become one of the better all around CF's in the game.

MississippiRed
10-01-2010, 04:11 PM
I'm crazy about Stubbs; I just love to watch him play. My saying earlier in the season was that if he can OPS .750, I wouldn't trade him for any other NL CF.

Other comments:

Curtis Granderson has 17 home runs since the ASB? And GABP gets credit as a home run park?

And, I think DougDirt still isn't reasonable:), but was within the acceptable margin of error with regards to being right about Stubbs.

osuceltic
10-01-2010, 04:15 PM
Drew Stubbs = Mike Cameron?

Stubbs has been a 3 win player this season despite his defense being vastly underrated by UZR. UZR has him as basically a league average defender, he's been much, much better than that, IMO. Sure, he had a couple blunders early in the season but overall, he's played at a Gold Glove level. There are maybe one or two center fielders in all of baseball with comparable range to Stubbs.

He's an excellent fielder, but I don't think he had a great year defensively. Although his struggles around the wall have been exaggerated here at times (but there is some truth there), he's surprisingly shaky when charging ground balls. He has bobbled a few and often slows down more than he should to make sure he fields them cleanly. These are areas he can clean up with more reps and experience (and practice, although that seems like a forgotten concept at the major league level). Still, I'm pretty confident he'll be a top-10 center field defender for several years.

Offensively, I think he's a guy who could have some wild fluctuating numbers over the years. He's prone to slumps and streaks, and it wouldn't shock me if he has one of those years where one or two monstrous slumps make for a nightmarish season. At the same time, I could see him having a season where the slumps are shorter and everything comes together to put him on the fringe of some MVP discussions. Especially if he puts that speed to better use on the basepaths.

BCubb2003
10-01-2010, 04:19 PM
It's hard to believe he's still practically a rookie.

lollipopcurve
10-01-2010, 04:20 PM
He's an excellent fielder, but I don't think he had a great year defensively. Although his struggles around the wall have been exaggerated here at times (but there is some truth there), he's surprisingly shaky when charging ground balls. He has bobbled a few and often slows down more than he should to make sure he fields them cleanly. These are areas he can clean up with more reps and experience (and practice, although that seems like a forgotten concept at the major league level). Still, I'm pretty confident he'll be a top-10 center field defender for several years.

Solid analysis. In a sense, his defensive game is similar to his offensive game. He's got some nice tools, but there remains a fair amount of untapped potential. I hope he's able to grow into his defensive game the way he appears to be developing on the offensive side. He's got to get a little more aggressive out there so he can make some tougher plays -- right now, he's just a bit tentative. The play at the wall on the night they clinched may boost his confidence some -- I hope so.

chicoruiz
10-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Which probably means he should be a #5-6 type hitter instead of, say, a leadoff hitter then, no?


Actually, the #5 spot in the order leads off more innings than any spot other than the #1 spot. It's a common misconception that a low OBP, high power guy should hit #5.

Boss-Hog
10-01-2010, 04:51 PM
He's an excellent fielder, but I don't think he had a great year defensively. Although his struggles around the wall have been exaggerated here at times (but there is some truth there), he's surprisingly shaky when charging ground balls. He has bobbled a few and often slows down more than he should to make sure he fields them cleanly. These are areas he can clean up with more reps and experience (and practice, although that seems like a forgotten concept at the major league level). Still, I'm pretty confident he'll be a top-10 center field defender for several years.

Offensively, I think he's a guy who could have some wild fluctuating numbers over the years. He's prone to slumps and streaks, and it wouldn't shock me if he has one of those years where one or two monstrous slumps make for a nightmarish season. At the same time, I could see him having a season where the slumps are shorter and everything comes together to put him on the fringe of some MVP discussions. Especially if he puts that speed to better use on the basepaths.
I agree - I think he's been pretty good, but certainly not Gold Glove worthy, on defense this year. You can't selectively choose to use UZR when it supports what your eyes tell you and ignore it when it doesn't. I think he definitely has a chance to improve with time to put himself in the top tier of CF defenders (and hopefully, with continued improvements offensively, one of the better overall players in the game at that position).

Brutus
10-01-2010, 05:01 PM
Anyone notice on that first like TRF posted that Jim Edmonds leads the NL CF in OPS since the break? He's got 7 homers despite not playing a ton. I really, really hope he can be used next week.

jojo
10-02-2010, 08:20 AM
I agree - I think he's been pretty good, but certainly not Gold Glove worthy, on defense this year. You can't selectively choose to use UZR when it supports what your eyes tell you and ignore it when it doesn't. I think he definitely has a chance to improve with time to put himself in the top tier of CF defenders (and hopefully, with continued improvements offensively, one of the better overall players in the game at that position).

This post and the one it quotes pretty much are spot on with how I saw Stubbs' defense as well.

edabbs44
10-02-2010, 08:31 AM
Drew Stubbs = Mike Cameron?

Stubbs has been a 3 win player this season despite his defense being vastly underrated by UZR. UZR has him as basically a league average defender, he's been much, much better than that, IMO. Sure, he had a couple blunders early in the season but overall, he's played at a Gold Glove level. There are maybe one or two center fielders in all of baseball with comparable range to Stubbs.

The issue with this is that great range doesn't automatically = great fielding.

mth123
10-02-2010, 10:18 AM
I was a Stubbs skeptic, but I've seen enough to become a firm supporter. IMO all he needs to do to become a legendary defender in CF is to play a couple steps in. He's had some easily seen issues at the wall, but its rarely because he doesn't get there in time (and doesn't really happen frequently enough to matter in the big scheme of things IMO). His real issue IMO is too many dinkers and dunkers falling in front of him. A couple steps in converts a lot more of those to outs IMO with little effect on his ability to get back on balls hit to the wall. If the ball has any air under it and enough juice to go that far, he'll get back with his range. If its hit on a line with enough heat on it to make to the wall, he won't make the play unless its hit right at him anyway. I don't think playing in a couple steps will cost him anything on well hit balls and could save the staff a lot of baserunners.

kaldaniels
10-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Stubbs will be a fast guy for most of his career...but how long do you think his elite speed will last?

OnBaseMachine
10-04-2010, 10:56 PM
Fangraphs on Stubbs:


Drew Stubbs looks like a home run hitter in the Major Leagues now, and despite his minor league numbers, donít be surprised if Stubbs continues to hit for decent power numbers as his career continues.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/drew-stubbs-power-threat/

VR
10-04-2010, 11:06 PM
Stubbs will be a fast guy for most of his career...but how long do you think his elite speed will last?

A great question....he's such a smooth runner, doesn't seem like he'd lose it all of a sudden ala Phillips.

Sea Ray
10-05-2010, 02:05 PM
Someone pegged him at a .770 OPS at the start of the year, though with a .345 OBP and .425 SLG.
http://redsminorleagues.com/2010/03/25/thursday-news-and-notes-14/

No question Doug, Drew Stubbs should be at the top of your resume of a scout of minor league talent.

Big Klu
10-05-2010, 03:08 PM
A great question....he's such a smooth runner, doesn't seem like he'd lose it all of a sudden ala Phillips.

My thought is that he has Eric Davis-type speed--it will never completely go away. He might lose a step or two in his mid-to-late 30's, but he will always be a "fast guy", like Davis or Rickey Henderson.

RedsManRick
10-05-2010, 03:47 PM
My thought is that he has Eric Davis-type speed--it will never completely go away. He might lose a step or two in his mid-to-late 30's, but he will always be a "fast guy", like Davis or Rickey Henderson.

Those fast guys with lanky builds do seem to age well; Kenny Lofton and more recently, Juan Pierre (just stole a career high 68 bags at 32), come to mind as well.

I think some guys slow down because they fill out over time. This certainly happened to ARod and Griffey, even prior to the injuries.

lollipopcurve
10-05-2010, 03:54 PM
Fangraphs on Stubbs:

Quote:
Drew Stubbs looks like a home run hitter in the Major Leagues now, and despite his minor league numbers, don’t be surprised if Stubbs continues to hit for decent power numbers as his career continues.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...-power-threat/

Heady, heady insight.

Ron Madden
10-16-2010, 03:08 AM
I don't give a hoot about his strikeouts, Drew Stubbs should be the Reds leadoff hitter in 2011. Stubbs put up some pretty impressive numbers from the AllStar break untill the end of the 2010 season.

WebScorpion
10-16-2010, 03:36 AM
I don't give a hoot about his strikeouts, Drew Stubbs should be the Reds leadoff hitter in 2011. Stubbs put up some pretty impressive numbers from the AllStar break untill the end of the 2010 season.

His OBP in the last 2 months was .363 and .406... if he could maintain his OBP somewhere in that range, he'd be a great leadoff hitter. I'd rather see him there than Janish or Phillips.

GAC
10-16-2010, 05:27 AM
Maturity and experience at the ML level. I remember, earlier in the year, where many were quite frustrated with this kid, especially his K's and plate disciple. Ya gotta show some patience and give these kids some time. The minors only show so much, can only take them so far, and can only give one a glimpse of that "raw" potential.

Personally, I think we've found us a CFer, and a RFer (the same applies to Bruce). Now lets find us a LFer.

MikeS21
10-16-2010, 09:10 AM
Personally, I think we've found us a CFer, and a RFer (the same applies to Bruce). Now lets find us a LFer.
Ryan LaMarre ?

Scrap Irony
10-16-2010, 10:59 AM
I don't give a hoot about his strikeouts, Drew Stubbs should be the Reds leadoff hitter in 2011. Stubbs put up some pretty impressive numbers from the AllStar break untill the end of the 2010 season.

He's the best choice on the roster, for sure. If the Reds don't get a Jose Reyes for SS or a Coco Crisp/ Johnny Damon for LF, he's the best choice for leadoff.

I would love to see Cincinnati step up in the free agent market and grab someone at a position of need. It'd be nice to see a deal for Reyes and a contract extension. Or, even better, how about:

Reyes, FRod, and Betran from NY to Cincinnati for Alonso, Heisey, Cozart, Maloney, Cordero, Phillips, Joseph, and Jordan Smith.

The Mets might need to even out the money, but that'd be fairly easy to do. New York would grab at least three everyday starters, one of which could be a steal, plus three relief arms, all the while giving up two major headaches.

Cincinnati would be able to put some of its depth to work here and have a really solid lineup, not to mention an improved closer and leadoff hitter:

Reyes 2B
Beltran LF
Votto 1B
Rolen 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Mesoraco/ Hanigan C
Janish SS

Redsfan320
10-16-2010, 11:04 AM
Reyes, FRod, and Betran from NY to Cincinnati for Alonso, Heisey, Cozart, Maloney, Cordero, Phillips, Joseph, and Jordan Smith.

I'm not sure about this trade either way, but with Ike Davis at 1st, the Metropolitans really have no use for Alonso. Still a good package for them though.

320

mth123
10-16-2010, 11:45 AM
I'm not sure about this trade either way, but with Ike Davis at 1st, the Metropolitans really have no use for Alonso. Still a good package for them though.

320

That's the problem with Alonso being your prime trade chip. I think the market is limited because almost every team has their own up and coming bat at 1B in their system.

cincrazy
10-16-2010, 02:27 PM
He's the best choice on the roster, for sure. If the Reds don't get a Jose Reyes for SS or a Coco Crisp/ Johnny Damon for LF, he's the best choice for leadoff.

I would love to see Cincinnati step up in the free agent market and grab someone at a position of need. It'd be nice to see a deal for Reyes and a contract extension. Or, even better, how about:

Reyes, FRod, and Betran from NY to Cincinnati for Alonso, Heisey, Cozart, Maloney, Cordero, Phillips, Joseph, and Jordan Smith.

The Mets might need to even out the money, but that'd be fairly easy to do. New York would grab at least three everyday starters, one of which could be a steal, plus three relief arms, all the while giving up two major headaches.

Cincinnati would be able to put some of its depth to work here and have a really solid lineup, not to mention an improved closer and leadoff hitter:

Reyes 2B
Beltran LF
Votto 1B
Rolen 3B
Bruce RF
Stubbs CF
Mesoraco/ Hanigan C
Janish SS

There really is no difference right now between Cordero and K-Rod, actually I'd prefer CoCo because at least he's not an ass off the field. Jose Reyes... who knows? Can the guy stay healthy, or is he going to blow out hamstrings for the rest of eternity? And Beltran... no thanks. The guy isn't getting any younger, and it showed last year. Now, his numbers would probably get a boost going from Citi to GABP, but I don't give up that much young talent for THAT package. No way.

The Operator
10-16-2010, 02:40 PM
I want no part of KRod or Beltran.

Beltran's not a bad player but he's owed a huge sum of money next year and he's prone to injury. And KRod is a nightmare.

I would be interested in Reyes, however.

edabbs44
10-16-2010, 07:41 PM
I want no part of KRod or Beltran.

Beltran's not a bad player but he's owed a huge sum of money next year and he's prone to injury. And KRod is a nightmare.

I would be interested in Reyes, however.

I'd pass on all those guys.

reds44
07-04-2012, 12:56 AM
Stubbs is now hitting .218 on the season. OPS down to .648. CF has become the new biggest need on this team.

kbrake
07-04-2012, 01:18 AM
Uncle.

oregonred
07-04-2012, 01:20 AM
Someone steal Dusty's lineup card and move the guy down to the 7th or 8th spot the rest of the road trip. He's scuffling bigtime and lost at the plate.

Tom Servo
07-04-2012, 01:21 AM
Uncle Stubbs and Uncle Heisey. Please bring in cool cousin Gerardo Parra.

RedlegJake
07-04-2012, 01:29 AM
I'd say the problem hitters on the team are Stubbs, Heisey, Cozart, Mesaraco, Cairo, Valdez, Rolen. That's more than half of the 13 position players. Cozart and Mesaraco are rookies and get a pass at this point - they show flashes at the plate and Cozie earns his keep with the glove while Mes is still learning his craft from Hanigan. Valdez I'd keep as the super sub who can play infield or outfield spots with decent defense - anything he hits is a plus. But Stubbs and Heisey are a huge problem as is Rolen. Ludwick and Frazier need to play everyday and Rolen should be relegated to the bench until he retires. Heisey and Stubbs should split CF until they can get a replacement or just settle them into the 8th spot and keep them for defense. Then look for a better left fielder. Bat BP leadoff and Ludwick cleanup, force Cairo out. Bring up Navarro and see if his bat translates. He was once a hot commodity but his attitude and work ethic was questioned. It's not unheard of for a young man to learn the hard way and adjust his attitude after a sojourn. Can he hit worse than Cairo? Really? Would opening a spot for Hanigan or Mes to pinch hit every game if needed be a bad thing? Rolen could rest and pinch hit and perhaps in that role he'd be strong when called upon. I just think the answers for this year might be staring the Reds in the face if they'd make some hard decisions concerning Cairo and Rolen and platoon Heisey and Stubbs in CF.

Vottomatic
07-04-2012, 01:29 AM
It's really scary watching a manager make out a lineup card and continue to do things that even the fans know are wrong, i.e. batting Stubbs 2nd. Yikes.

powersackers
07-04-2012, 02:32 AM
I promise to boycott the game tomorrow if Stubbs is in the two hole. I have had enough. I need a break from watching him one way or another.

OldXOhio
07-04-2012, 10:13 AM
Someone steal Dusty's lineup card and move the guy down to the 7th or 8th spot the rest of the road trip. He's scuffling bigtime and lost at the plate.

Only for the road trip? He doesn't belong any higher than 7th ever. If not for his D he'd be in the minors.

bellhead
07-04-2012, 11:03 AM
Only for the road trip? He doesn't belong any higher than 7th ever. If not for his D he'd be in the minors.

He's awful, my biggest gripe is he doesn't show any inclination to make changes, he doesn't pick up off speed pitches very well, but insists on having maybe the longest swing on the team. Drew choke up hit a slapper on 0-2...

Vottomatic
07-04-2012, 11:08 AM
Stubbs should have been traded sometime along the way when he still had value. He's not the answer in CF, and neither is Heisey. Too many similar guys on this team and not enough guys who simply get on base. Frustrating.

fearofpopvol1
07-04-2012, 11:04 PM
0 for his last 28 now. I don't mean to pile on the guy, but he has been downright dismal lately.

Blitz Dorsey
07-04-2012, 11:10 PM
He should be in AAA. The phrase "Pathetically Awful" comes to mind.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-04-2012, 11:25 PM
He's barely a major league player, yet we have him batting in front of our best hitter. It's inconceivable.

Blitz Dorsey
07-04-2012, 11:37 PM
Dusty on batting Stubbs 2nd every game: "Well, (chews on toothpick), well, uh, you see here, (curses Bartman under his breath), speed kills you know. Drew just uh, needs to, you know, not bat .210 and he'll be fine. Plus, and you guys don't know this because you never played with Hank Aaron, but speed kills. I should have mentioned that earlier. Plus, Drew is a former first-rounder. Act like you know!"

CrackerJack
07-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Time to cut the bait...

reds44
07-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Forget hitting 2nd, he doesn't belong playing anymore. He's a defensive replacement and a pinch running. His numbers have been steadily declining, and he's 27.

It's time. I'll be surprised if he's not traded at the deadline.

OldXOhio
07-04-2012, 11:48 PM
He's in the 2 hole tomorrow. Bank on it.

DGullett35
07-04-2012, 11:53 PM
Nothing against none of you guys or anything but after tonight I feel so frustrated I think Im gonna just take a break. Im not gonna read this site and Im not gonna watch or listen to any Reds game until after the break. watching Stubbs go 0-for a million is mentally draining for any fan. Dusty has to shake up this lineup. What hes putting out there on a nightly basis isnt getting it done I read somewhere where Joe Maddon had like 45 different lineups in the teams first 45 games. Dusty hasn't changed the lineup other than injuries or the occasional day off for 81 games or so it seems. I had to vent. Sorry. Id say get rid of Stubbs but who would take him? Im sure now that Ive called him out he will tease us with his amazing hitting abilities and speed for a few games.

Kc61
07-04-2012, 11:54 PM
Forget hitting 2nd, he doesn't belong playing anymore. He's a defensive replacement and a pinch running. His numbers have been steadily declining, and he's 27.

It's time. I'll be surprised if he's not traded at the deadline.

0 for 28 now.

You know those questions like, who is the only player to hit 40 homers in a season and catch 10 fly balls in a game? You know, those combo type questions about who did two different things?

How about this one. Name the only player to strike out over 200 times in a season and go 0 for 50?

WVPacman
07-05-2012, 12:07 AM
Im so glad somebody started this subject about stubbs.I have lost all patiance with stubbs.He has never done anything for this team with his bat.He has to be one of the worst hitters in the league and I would LOVE to know how the guy is still on the reds big league roster.Send him down to AAA or better yet trade him for anything.

The Operator
07-05-2012, 12:58 AM
My cousin sent me this just now... I LOL'd. Love a good Dos Equis reference.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 12:59 AM
The 2013 projected arbitration Super 2 cutoff is 2.134. Drew Stubbs is just barely past that. In other words, if the Reds want to keep him next year, he's going to cost quite a bit more than the minimum salary. But let's be real: although Drew Stubbs has been disappointing, he hasn't been overall horrible. He's clearly in a slump, but his overall performance has been better than five of the hitters currently on the team.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 01:07 AM
The 2013 projected arbitration Super 2 cutoff is 2.134. Drew Stubbs is just barely past that. In other words, if the Reds want to keep him next year, he's going to cost quite a bit more than the minimum salary. But let's be real: although Drew Stubbs has been disappointing, he hasn't been overall horrible. He's clearly in a slump, but his overall performance has been better than five of the hitters currently on the team.

Drew is beyond streaky so let's see where this ends up at the end of 2012. The direction since 2010 hasn't been promising. 2013 is a no-brainer on bringing him back (unless he is dealt), but he will start getting expensive as the fuse is shrinking rapidly (nice 4th reference) on his cost/value to the organization.

Barring a trade the plan should be Drew in 2013 keeping things warm for Hamilton manning CF in 2014 and beyond.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-05-2012, 01:08 AM
Forget hitting 2nd, he doesn't belong playing anymore. He's a defensive replacement and a pinch running. His numbers have been steadily declining, and he's 27.

It's time. I'll be surprised if he's not traded at the deadline.

What moronic team would possibly be interested in acquiring him for their big league roster? I'm quite sure that other GMs know, as we do, how useless he is with the bat.

Tom Servo
07-05-2012, 02:04 AM
What moronic team would possibly be interested in acquiring him for their big league roster? I'm quite sure that other GMs know, as we do, how useless he is with the bat.
In a league that employs Chone Figgins and gives him semi-regular playing time, Stubbs can find a job on a major league team.

dfs
07-05-2012, 02:08 AM
But let's be real: although Drew Stubbs has been disappointing, he hasn't been overall horrible.

218/293/355 and striking out in a third of your at bats is Cory Pattersonesque. You can quibble about horrible if you want.

Stubbs is like Paul Janish, he plays defense well enough that if he can hit 250 then he belongs on the major league roster.

But you got to hit 250. 220 isn't getting it done.

reds44
07-05-2012, 02:21 AM
What moronic team would possibly be interested in acquiring him for their big league roster? I'm quite sure that other GMs know, as we do, how useless he is with the bat.
I bet somebody out there likes his "potential" still.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 02:26 AM
218/293/355 and striking out in a third of your at bats is Cory Pattersonesque. You can quibble about horrible if you want.

Stubbs is like Paul Janish, he plays defense well enough that if he can hit 250 then he belongs on the major league roster.

But you got to hit 250. 220 isn't getting it done.
In terms of OPS+ Drew Stubbs has been almost 50% better this year than Corey Patterson was as a Red. But I don't see much point in talking about this if you're going to talk about batting average. Curtis Granderson isn't hitting .250 either.

gilpdawg
07-05-2012, 02:51 AM
-0.4 WAR. I'm thinking I miss Chris Dickerson right about now. That career .351 OBP would play on this team even with no pop.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 03:06 AM
-0.4 WAR. I'm thinking I miss Chris Dickerson right about now. That career .351 OBP would play on this team even with no pop.
Fangraphs says 0.5, and baseball-reference says 0.4 WAR, so I'm not sure where you're getting a negative WAR for Stubbs.

gilpdawg
07-05-2012, 03:16 AM
Fangraphs says 0.5, and baseball-reference says 0.4 WAR, so I'm not sure where you're getting a negative WAR for Stubbs.

BP. But either way you slice it, he's either sub replacement or slightly over at this point. Usually with a WAR discrepancy like that I tend to fall in the middle, so replacement level he is. And he's 27 now, so I think, to borrow from Dennis Green "he is who we think he is, and we let him off the hook!" But, if you wanna crown....never mind. :D

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 04:21 AM
BP. But either way you slice it, he's either sub replacement or slightly over at this point. Usually with a WAR discrepancy like that I tend to fall in the middle, so replacement level he is. And he's 27 now, so I think, to borrow from Dennis Green "he is who we think he is, and we let him off the hook!" But, if you wanna crown....never mind. :D
I'm not saying he's a future MVP or anything, but he has had success in the past, and I think it's ridiculous to act like he won't have success in the future based on the limited amount of data that's available.

gilpdawg
07-05-2012, 05:36 AM
I'm not saying he's a future MVP or anything, but he has had success in the past, and I think it's ridiculous to act like he won't have success in the future based on the limited amount of data that's available.
Sure, he's not a lost cause, but he's trending downwards and it doesn't look all that promising to me. He reminds me of an outfield Willie Greene. Good for a couple of years but couldn't adjust once people figured out how to get him out.

I hope I'm wrong. I like the guy.

mth123
07-05-2012, 05:55 AM
I'm not saying he's a future MVP or anything, but he has had success in the past, and I think it's ridiculous to act like he won't have success in the future based on the limited amount of data that's available.

But we have a ton of data. Baseball history is filled with guys who came up and were decent for a while but couldn't adjust once the league figured them out. Unless Stubbs can make a significant change to his game, I think a .700 OPS season is a pipedream from here on out. I'm guessing his OPS will continue to fall. He'll get a few chances with new teams that think they can fix him, but he'll continue to drop until it reaches the point where no team is interested. I wouldn't call Willy Taveras a "comp" for Stubbs, but I think how his career progressed is a pretty good example. I really wanted the Reds to deal Stubbs last winter while he still had some value. Many argued that it would have been selling low, but, with arb coming, I just had a hard time seeing how his value was going to go up. This year's deadline may be the last chance the Reds have to include Stubbs in a deal for anything of value.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 09:01 AM
Here's the biggest problem with Stubbs. It's not the short term 0 for 28. It's not just his .686 OPS last year or his .638 this year.

It's his number of plate appearances.

Stubbs had 681 plate appearances last season. By far the most on the Reds. This year, he missed time due to injury but still has 238 PA.

That's over 900 plate appearances in a season and a half.

When a hitter is averaging about .670 or thereabouts OPS, and he hits over 900 times in a season and a half, the offense will be hurt.

Maybe if the Reds added another top notch hitter to the lineup, perhaps they could get away with 900 plate appearances at .670 OPS. But as the offense is presently constructed, it's become a problem.

I said in April, and still maintain, that Stubbs' playing time needs to be cut. Unfortunately, Heisey isn't doing well either. But all these Stubbs at bats is intolerable.

Vottomatic
07-05-2012, 04:22 PM
Geez. I wanted to trade Stubbs 2 seasons ago when he still had value and "potential".

REDREAD
07-05-2012, 04:51 PM
The problem with trading Stubbs though ... who plays CF?

Stubbs has certainly been disappointing this year, but Heisey is not an option either.

I just don't see any better CF available on the market, and in the Reds price range at this point.. Maybe someone else knows of one? Typically, good, young, and cheap CF are not traded, so upgrading CF is difficult, especially in midseason.

reds44
07-05-2012, 04:52 PM
Heisey is better than Stubbs at this point, but the answer to that question isn't in the organization.

OldXOhio
07-05-2012, 05:01 PM
I just don't see any better CF available on the market, and in the Reds price range at this point.. Maybe someone else knows of one? Typically, good, young, and cheap CF are not traded, so upgrading CF is difficult, especially in midseason.

This point has been made by KC as well and if the case, then so be it. Upgrade elsewhere, CF is what it is with Heisey or Stubbs, although neither have earned a place at the top of the lineup, nor a lucrative LT contract. Perhaps the market provides an opportunity down the road.

corkedbat
07-05-2012, 05:07 PM
Probably won't be easy to replace him, but I'm more than over watching both Stubbs and Heisey.

reds44
07-05-2012, 05:09 PM
The problem with trading Stubbs though ... who plays CF?

Stubbs has certainly been disappointing this year, but Heisey is not an option either.

I just don't see any better CF available on the market, and in the Reds price range at this point.. Maybe someone else knows of one? Typically, good, young, and cheap CF are not traded, so upgrading CF is difficult, especially in midseason.
Denard Span is the obvious choice. DeJesus.

REDREAD
07-05-2012, 05:27 PM
Denard Span is the obvious choice. DeJesus.

Not sure DeJesus can play CF.. He played 68 games there in 2008, and only a handful since then. Given the large contract that Coco Crisp got last offseason, there's clearly a shortage of legit CF out there.. I would think that if DeJesus could play CF, he would've gotten a much bigger contract.

Span would be nice, but why would the Twins trade their CF who is signed longterm (option year at 2015)? Seems like he would command a very steep price. Span has a career 744 OPS. That's better than Stubbs (716), but not exactly a huge upgrade. His LF bat and better OBP would be a better fit, but again.. what price are you willing to pay for just a slight upgrade in CF?

IMO, this response proved my point that upgrading CF would be difficult, especially at midseason.

corkedbat
07-05-2012, 05:29 PM
Denard Span is the obvious choice. DeJesus.

Can DeJesus still play an adequate CF (or could he ever)?

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 05:45 PM
DeJesus played center for the Royals when he began and he is/was a fine fielder. But he has gotten older and I doubt he could do better than fill in as an emergency CFer now.

reds44
07-05-2012, 06:00 PM
DeJesus played center for the Royals when he began and he is/was a fine fielder. But he has gotten older and I doubt he could do better than fill in as an emergency CFer now.
He's been playing CF for the Cubs since Rizzo was called up.

Meanwhile, Valdez is batting 2nd and playing CF tonight. In San Diego. A giant ballpark.

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:07 PM
He's been playing CF for the Cubs since Rizzo was called up.

Meanwhile, Valdez is batting 2nd and playing CF tonight. In San Diego. A giant ballpark.

I have always loved DeJesus - from his time with the Royals. Love to have him. He is a pro hitter - you won't see those horrible give away at bats from him. Another fine player the Royals couldn't/wouldn't keep. Heisey and Stubbs to the Cubs for Soriano and DeJesus with the Cubs paying Soriano's salary. ( I am so sick of seeing those at bats

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Heisey is better than Stubbs at this point, but the answer to that question isn't in the organization.
Other than bunting, how so?

reds44
07-05-2012, 06:46 PM
Other than bunting, how so?
You've seen Drew bat lately, no?

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:50 PM
Eddie Gaedel has a better line than Drew Stubbs...but he might a bit of range for CF

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Craig Counsell of the Brewers is currently 0-45 second all time to 1909's Bill Bergen (of the Reds) maybe the worst hitter in MLB history who went 0-46, the longest streak in history. So Drew has a way to go. Counsell isn't even a terrible hitter careerwise, plainly average. He isn't playing fulltime, though. Milwaukee is somewhat smarter in that regard it seems. When a guy hits the 0-20s he begins to sit up there in Beer City.

What if Counsell breaks the record only to be subourned by Stubbs? I don't know if I ought to cheer for him to go for it or not??? I love to witness history after all.

Heck, I would if it wasn't for the pennant race. My selfishness aside I want him to get hot. So much for the record and my own desires. I am selflessly relegating my desire to see history made to the scrap heap of ambition as I lust for a title more than a brief glimpse into the glaring spotlight of history shining on Drew Stubbs and the shadows of the immortal Bill Bergen and barely glimpsed Craig Counsell.

M2
07-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Stubbs desperately needs to platoon. He's useful vs. LHPs. And his glove and speed are nice to have on the bench. He might even do better against RHPs if his exposure to them was limited - it would help keep him out of prolonged funks and the manager could pick his matchups.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 07:09 PM
He's been playing CF for the Cubs since Rizzo was called up.

Meanwhile, Valdez is batting 2nd and playing CF tonight. In San Diego. A giant ballpark.

Citifield has a huge outfield as well, and Valdez handled CF well there. With Heisey playing left tonight, I don't foresee a problem, although Latos is a fly ball pitcher so there could be much activity.

jojo
07-05-2012, 07:10 PM
Stubbs is in danger of becoming the Reds version of Corey Patterson before the Reds signed Patterson after he had become Patterson.

reds44
07-05-2012, 07:12 PM
Stubbs is in danger of becoming the Reds version of Corey Patterson before the Reds signed Patterson after he had become Patterson.
LOL. This is awesome.

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 07:21 PM
Stubbs desperately needs to platoon. He's useful vs. LHPs. And his glove and speed are nice to have on the bench. He might even do better against RHPs if his exposure to them was limited - it would help keep him out of prolonged funks and the manager could pick his matchups.

This. Absolutely agree. If we could successfully utilize Stubbs, he'd be much better. He's a useful ballplayer.

fearofpopvol1
07-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Stubbs desperately needs to platoon. He's useful vs. LHPs. And his glove and speed are nice to have on the bench. He might even do better against RHPs if his exposure to them was limited - it would help keep him out of prolonged funks and the manager could pick his matchups.

The Reds have historically given way too much rope to 1st round draft picks, because of their perceived pedigree. I would expect that to continue here. He might get a day off soon, but expect him to regularly be starting in CF until at least the send of the season. And if he is still in a similar spot by season's end, then the Reds may have 2nd thoughts.

Rojo
07-05-2012, 07:59 PM
Stubbs desperately needs to platoon. He's useful vs. LHPs. And his glove and speed are nice to have on the bench. He might even do better against RHPs if his exposure to them was limited - it would help keep him out of prolonged funks and the manager could pick his matchups.

We'd be begging for more Stubbs, if Earl Weaver managed.

pedro
07-05-2012, 08:04 PM
We'd be begging for more Stubbs, if Earl Weaver managed.

Dusty clearly doesn't have Weaver's knack for giving guys their best 375 ab's that's for sure. Then again, the roster isn't really built to work that way either. The reds sure could use a LHH speedy OBP guy who could play LF and CF

gilpdawg
07-05-2012, 08:17 PM
Dusty clearly doesn't have Weaver's knack for giving guys their best 375 ab's that's for sure. Then again, the roster isn't really built to work that way either. The reds sure could use a LHH speedy OBP guy who could play LF and CF

Earl Weaver didn't have to carry 12 pitchers either, which is a huge reason why platooning is not as widespread as it once was.

jojo
07-05-2012, 08:20 PM
Earl Weaver didn't have to carry 12 pitchers either, which is a huge reason why platooning is not as widespread as it once was.

Some teams carry 13 which is borderline crazy IMHO.

pedro
07-05-2012, 08:25 PM
Earl Weaver didn't have to carry 12 pitchers either, which is a huge reason why platooning is not as widespread as it once was.

Very true. 2 extra position players on the bench would do this team wonders.

At least if they were guys not already in the Reds organization anyway...

RichRed
07-05-2012, 08:26 PM
Meanwhile, Valdez is batting 2nd and playing CF tonight. In San Diego. A giant ballpark.

Stop the madness.

RedlegJake
07-05-2012, 08:27 PM
Stop the madness.

Right now I like Valdez at the plate a lot more than Stubbs even giving up the defensive difference. Never thought I'd say that

RichRed
07-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Right now I like Valdez at the plate a lot more than Stubbs even giving up the defensive difference. Never thought I'd say that

It's the batting 2nd part that leaves me shaking my head the most.

pedro
07-05-2012, 08:34 PM
It's the batting 2nd part that leaves me shaking my head the most.

Unfortunately when 5 of your 8 everyday players (6 when mes is catching) are OBP challenged there really isn't a good way to shuffle the deck.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 08:35 PM
You've seen Drew bat lately, no?
That's a loaded question. Yes, I've seen him bat lately. His results are about as bad as can be. Two-week slumps happen in baseball all the time. Have you seen Zack Cozart over the past two weeks? Terrible. Ryan Hanigan? Even worse. Let's cut bait with both of them while we can still get something of value for them. Or are you going to say that two weeks isn't enough of a sample size?

Instead of complaining about Stubbs, why don't we complain about Heisey? In terms of WAR, Heisey has been even worse over the past month. Let's trade him, too. And who would you rather have on the roster? Drew Stubbs or Miguel Cairo? Wilson Valdez? Why single out Stubbs? Because he's in a slump? Where's your patience?

A few weeks isn't enough time to judge how good of a baseball player someone is. If so, nearly every Hall of Famer would've been cut multiple times in his career. I understand being frustrated with Stubbs' performance, but we need to be patient. I'm not saying he's a future All-Star, and I'm not even saying he'll be good. But he's the Reds' best option, and when his numbers start to get closer to the mean, you'll realize it was a bad idea to try to get rid of him when his stock was at an all-time low.

reds44
07-05-2012, 08:45 PM
That's a loaded question. Yes, I've seen him bat lately. His results are about as bad as can be. Two-week slumps happen in baseball all the time. Have you seen Zack Cozart over the past two weeks? Terrible. Ryan Hanigan? Even worse. Let's cut bait with both of them while we can still get something of value for them. Or are you going to say that two weeks isn't enough of a sample size?

Instead of complaining about Stubbs, why don't we complain about Heisey? In terms of WAR, Heisey has been even worse over the past month. Let's trade him, too. And who would you rather have on the roster? Drew Stubbs or Miguel Cairo? Wilson Valdez? Why single out Stubbs? Because he's in a slump? Where's your patience?

A few weeks isn't enough time to judge how good of a baseball player someone is. If so, nearly every Hall of Famer would've been cut multiple times in his career. I understand being frustrated with Stubbs' performance, but we need to be patient. I'm not saying he's a future All-Star, and I'm not even saying he'll be good. But he's the Reds' best option, and when his numbers start to get closer to the mean, you'll realize it was a bad idea to try to get rid of him when his stock was at an all-time low.
Well yeah, the last two weeks, or the last season and a half. Same difference.

RichRed
07-05-2012, 08:55 PM
Unfortunately when 5 of your 8 everyday players (6 when mes is catching) are OBP challenged there really isn't a good way to shuffle the deck.

I hear ya, pedro, but there's OBP-challenged and there's OBP-incompetent. Valdez's career OBP is .287. Even on this team, Valdez is a #8 level hitter.

cumberlandreds
07-05-2012, 08:58 PM
Right now I like Valdez at the plate a lot more than Stubbs even giving up the defensive difference. Never thought I'd say that

I agree with you. I've about given up on Stubbs. He just doesn't get it. Use your talents, which is speed. But instead he goes up there hacking away every ab. Maybe they can pick up a leadoff CF before the trading deadline. I'm not holdng my breath though.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 09:08 PM
Well yeah, the last two weeks, or the last season and a half. Same difference.
Up until about a month or so ago, you probably could've said the same about Ludwick. Drew Stubbs isn't the problem. In fact, he's not even a problem. He's utilized incorrectly. Any team would be thrilled to have him. The problem is the lack of depth and complementary pieces.

reds44
07-05-2012, 09:12 PM
Up until about a month or so ago, you probably could've said the same about Ludwick. Drew Stubbs isn't the problem. In fact, he's not even a problem. He's utilized incorrectly. Any team would be thrilled to have him. The problem is the lack of depth and complementary pieces.
I think the Reds should be looking to upgrade in LF too. Preaching to the choir there. And good, if any team would be thrilled to have Stubbs I hope they deal him by the 31st and get something in return.

oregonred
07-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Right now I like Valdez at the plate a lot more than Stubbs even giving up the defensive difference. Never thought I'd say that

Replacing a career .319 OBP and .716 OPS CF with a career .287 OBP and .613 OPS guy playing out of position, but for a night or two sure I'll play along

:bang:

OldXOhio
07-05-2012, 09:24 PM
Up until about a month or so ago, you probably could've said the same about Ludwick. Drew Stubbs isn't the problem. In fact, he's not even a problem. He's utilized incorrectly. Any team would be thrilled to have him. The problem is the lack of depth and complementary pieces.

Agree to disagree here. Hes absolutely used incorrectly, but I'm firmly entrenched in the camp that says he's sub par, regardless of the the current 0-fer.

CrackerJack
07-05-2012, 09:46 PM
That's a loaded question. Yes, I've seen him bat lately. His results are about as bad as can be. Two-week slumps happen in baseball all the time. Have you seen Zack Cozart over the past two weeks? Terrible. Ryan Hanigan? Even worse. Let's cut bait with both of them while we can still get something of value for them. Or are you going to say that two weeks isn't enough of a sample size?

Instead of complaining about Stubbs, why don't we complain about Heisey? In terms of WAR, Heisey has been even worse over the past month. Let's trade him, too. And who would you rather have on the roster? Drew Stubbs or Miguel Cairo? Wilson Valdez? Why single out Stubbs? Because he's in a slump? Where's your patience?

A few weeks isn't enough time to judge how good of a baseball player someone is. If so, nearly every Hall of Famer would've been cut multiple times in his career. I understand being frustrated with Stubbs' performance, but we need to be patient. I'm not saying he's a future All-Star, and I'm not even saying he'll be good. But he's the Reds' best option, and when his numbers start to get closer to the mean, you'll realize it was a bad idea to try to get rid of him when his stock was at an all-time low.

Stubbs' #'s and production have been declining steadily since the end of 2010. A hot streak won't increase his value either.

I don't know what they do with him exactly, but just about anybody who can play CF adequately is a better option at this point.

CrackerJack
07-05-2012, 09:48 PM
Replacing a career .319 OBP and .716 OPS CF with a career .287 OBP and .613 OPS guy playing out of position, but for a night or two sure I'll play along

:bang:

As long as it's temporary, just about anybody is a better option than Stubbs' right now, he's had plenty of time to turn it around. It's what they need to do the rest of the season that's the problem I suppose...find somebody.

757690
07-05-2012, 10:21 PM
I know most of the posters in this thread won't think this matters, but during this 0-28 streak, Stubbs BB/K rate is actually better than his career's .44 to .32.

Right now, Justin Upton is in a 2-25 streak, and Corey Hart recently had a 1-24 streak. I am sure I could find over a dozen examples of good hitters who have been in similar bad luck streaks as Stubbs.

Redhook
07-05-2012, 10:28 PM
I am sure I could find over a dozen examples of good hitters who have been in similar bad luck streaks as Stubbs.

A) Stubbs is not a good hitter. Not even close.
B) Do you really think luck is the reason Stubbs is slumping?

Kc61
07-05-2012, 10:29 PM
I know most of the posters in this thread won't think this matters, but during this 0-28 streak, Stubbs BB/K rate is actually better than his career's .44 to .32.

Right now, Justin Upton is in a 2-25 streak, and Corey Hart recently had a 1-24 streak. I am sure I could find over a dozen examples of good hitters who have been in similar bad luck streaks as Stubbs.

But he has a .638 OPS.

AmarilloRed
07-05-2012, 10:30 PM
I keep hoping he'll work himself back into 2010 form-but I think it's time to send him to AAA. He's in a really bad stretch- I hope he can fix things in the minors. If he shows some major improvement, call him back up in September.

OldXOhio
07-05-2012, 10:32 PM
I keep hoping he'll work himself back into 2010 form-but I think it's time to send him to AAA. He's in a really bad stretch- I hope he can fix things in the minors. If he shows some major improvement, call him back up in September.

When he'll make a fine PR

757690
07-05-2012, 10:39 PM
But he has a .638 OPS.

It was .707 before the slump.

His BABIP is at .272. His career BABIP is .325. Everything points to Stubbs being around a .715 OPS guy. I expect him to be that going forward.

reds44
07-05-2012, 10:40 PM
It was .707 before the slump.

His BABIP is at .272. His career BABIP is .325. Everything points to Stubbs being around a .715 OPS guy. I expect him to be that going forward.
He hasn't been that in a year and a half.

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 10:47 PM
Give me Stubbs at his worst in center over Valdez any freakin day of the week.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 10:57 PM
It was .707 before the slump.

His BABIP is at .272. His career BABIP is .325. Everything points to Stubbs being around a .715 OPS guy. I expect him to be that going forward.

Stubbs was in the high .680s range last year in almost 700 plate appearances.

.717 is a dream. And not that great a dream BTW.

cincrazy
07-05-2012, 10:59 PM
Stubbs was in the high .680s range last year in almost 700 plate appearances.

.717 is a dream. And not that great a dream BTW.

I don't think .717 is a "dream." He's done it before. If we didn't overuse him, he could be a very useful player. But letting him bat 700 times a year and hitting him at the top of the order just sets him up to fail.

757690
07-05-2012, 11:04 PM
Stubbs was in the high .680s range last year in almost 700 plate appearances.

.717 is a dream. And not that great a dream BTW.

He was at .707 a week ago, and hit .773 two years ago. Adjust his BABIP just to league average, and he's fine. Adjust it to his career average, and he's even better.

He looked terrible in LA, so I understand the reaction, but even in San Fran and before, he looked better in term of pitch recognition than he ever has.

camisadelgolf
07-05-2012, 11:05 PM
He hasn't been that in a year and a half.
Yes, he has been below his career norms for a little over the past year. Even then, it's not so much of a decline that he's unworthy of a roster spot or anything. We're talking about a temporary under-performance with some of the reason for it being tied to luck. It happens to pretty much every Major Leaguer at some point. I'd love to hear your alternative solutions.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 11:06 PM
Yes, he has been below his career norms for a little over the past year. Even then, it's not so much of a decline that he's unworthy of a roster spot or anything. We're talking about a temporary under-performance with some of the reason for it being tied to luck. It happens to pretty much every Major Leaguer at some point. I'd love to hear your alternative solutions.

Get somebody who can hit.

757690
07-05-2012, 11:09 PM
Get somebody who can hit.

Stubbs is not a good hitter, and probably never will be. However, even with below average hitting skills, he has the overall talent to be a productive player in CF.

Kc61
07-05-2012, 11:16 PM
Stubbs is not a good hitter, and probably never will be. However, even with below average hitting skills, he has the overall talent to be a productive player in CF.

Not going to argue with you.

Stubbs over about 900 plate appearances the last year and a half has an OPS of about .670 and became the second man in baseball history to fan 200 times in a season.

I don't think that cuts it, even for an excellent defender. Others do, so be it.

mth123
07-06-2012, 05:34 AM
He was at .707 a week ago, and hit .773 two years ago. Adjust his BABIP just to league average, and he's fine. Adjust it to his career average, and he's even better.

He looked terrible in LA, so I understand the reaction, but even in San Fran and before, he looked better in term of pitch recognition than he ever has.

Do you really think Stubbs will be able to put up numbers like he did in 2009 and 2010 again? Those numbers were accumulated when he was new to the league and they were still figuring him out. The league has adjusted and he just doesn't have the ability to adjust back. He wasn't a good hitter in college. He wasn't a good hitter in the minors. What makes you think he has the ability to adjust in the majors when he was never a good hitter against lesser competitiion? There are tons of guys of all types, be it power, speed or even pitchers, who have had a similar pattern. Come up, put up their best numbers in their first couple of years and deteriorate from there because they can't adjust. The spike he showed when he first came up was the anomaly, not the sub-.700 OPS he's put up in the 900+ PAs since then. Using career numbers that have been skewed by his early spike is creating the wrong expectation from this guy. His actual ability just doesn't support it. He can be a decent role player if used correctly (which is as a spot player who plays against LHP, comes in late for defense and pinch runs). On a powerhouse, like say Texas, he could play CF to cover ground in the OF to save the legs of a guy like Hamilton while the rest of the offense carries him and his act of making outs by the bushel at the bottom of the order. Even then it would only be until a better solution could be found.

He does well covering CF, but honestly, center fielders are supposed to be good defenders and finding a guy to play defense and cover a lot of ground out there isn't that hard if your willing to settle for a sub-standard offensive player (which is what Stubbs is). His defense looks good because we got so used to horrible during the Griffey years, but he doesn't do anything special out there to make carrying his bat a must.

mdccclxix
07-06-2012, 09:57 AM
I thought Stubbs bunt to begin the year was a message that things would change. I think it just meant he'd worked on it and to those who thought he couldn't, shove it. Since then, it's not become a weapon. If he bunted for more hits, I know it wouldn't change his OPS, as his power would decline perhaps, but he could force pitchers into a few more 1-0 counts and just generally add some flavor to his game. Oh well. I agree with mth, he'd be better served backing up Hamilton in Texas, but as a Red he's going to be a starter this year. I think he's a big part of the personality of this team with Votto and Bruce.

757690
07-06-2012, 12:01 PM
Do you really think Stubbs will be able to put up numbers like he did in 2009 and 2010 again? Those numbers were accumulated when he was new to the league and they were still figuring him out. The league has adjusted and he just doesn't have the ability to adjust back. He wasn't a good hitter in college. He wasn't a good hitter in the minors. What makes you think he has the ability to adjust in the majors when he was never a good hitter against lesser competitiion? There are tons of guys of all types, be it power, speed or even pitchers, who have had a similar pattern. Come up, put up their best numbers in their first couple of years and deteriorate from there because they can't adjust. The spike he showed when he first came up was the anomaly, not the sub-.700 OPS he's put up in the 900+ PAs since then. Using career numbers that have been skewed by his early spike is creating the wrong expectation from this guy. His actual ability just doesn't support it. He can be a decent role player if used correctly (which is as a spot player who plays against LHP, comes in late for defense and pinch runs). On a powerhouse, like say Texas, he could play CF to cover ground in the OF to save the legs of a guy like Hamilton while the rest of the offense carries him and his act of making outs by the bushel at the bottom of the order. Even then it would only be until a better solution could be found.

He does well covering CF, but honestly, center fielders are supposed to be good defenders and finding a guy to play defense and cover a lot of ground out there isn't that hard if your willing to settle for a sub-standard offensive player (which is what Stubbs is). His defense looks good because we got so used to horrible during the Griffey years, but he doesn't do anything special out there to make carrying his bat a must.

I'm not saying he will get back to his numbers from his first full year. Not even close. I'm saying mostly what you're saying, we are just arriving at slightly different numbers.

Big differnece is thst I actually do see improvement. His strikeouts are down, and he is swinging at fewer pitches out of the zone. Most of the blame for his poor numbers goes to his extremely low BABIP. .272 compared to a career .325. That cannot be ignored, especially when his LD rate is where it was in 2010.

This is the result partly of luck, and partly because he is hitting many more GB his season and less FB. He should do better than most hitters with GB, but teams have learned to play in a few steps, and he's just not finding the holes.

I think the biggest problem is what our RMR feared. That Stubbs would change his approach to attempt to take advantage of his speed. Hit down on the ball more instead of driving it. He started the season with the approach, to terrible results. His slugging is way down. He went back to his old ways, and was fine until this stretch of bad luck. If he continues with his old approach, I think he'll be the low OBP, high SLG, with around a .715 OPS.

757690
07-07-2012, 12:22 AM
Any bets on whether or not Stubbs gets a hit before the AS break?

Dan
07-07-2012, 12:41 AM
Any bets on whether or not Stubbs gets a hit before the AS break?

Can I get in on that bet now? :D

757690
07-07-2012, 12:43 AM
Can I get in on that bet now? :D

Do hits off of Ross Olendorff count? :cool:

Wheelhouse
07-07-2012, 11:48 AM
Silent? Really? There's two Drew Stubbs related threads on the first page alone. Stubbs is one of, if not the most bashed player on Redszone.

BTW, I'd drop him in the lineup before I'd send him to AAA.

I think he needs to go down. He's not having a bad stretch, his approach to the game is wrong. He might get some decent coaching in the minors.

corkedbat
07-07-2012, 03:50 PM
It wouldn't shock me to see Stubbs go on a bit of a hot streak sometime soon. If he prolongs it to a couple of weeks and starts to draw some interest, I'd be ready to "sell high" on him a a moment's notice.

DGullett35
07-07-2012, 07:55 PM
Should have traded him for Brantley earlier this year. That would have solved our leadoff hitter woes and Brantley is still young. His ceiling is 100 stories higher than Stubby's. However I do agree that he will get hot here soon. if only he could get on base the guy would have over 40 steals a year.

Kc61
07-07-2012, 08:03 PM
It wouldn't shock me to see Stubbs go on a bit of a hot streak sometime soon. If he prolongs it to a couple of weeks and starts to draw some interest, I'd be ready to "sell high" on him a a moment's notice.

LOL, glad you used the quotation marks around sell high.

The idea that the Reds can sell high on Stubbs this year when he had a 32 at bat hitless streak, is currently hitting .637 OPS, is coming off a two hundred strikeout season, and has about a .670 OPS over his last 900 plate appearances is a little remote.

Maybe, if he gets real hot, the Reds can "sell medium."

mth123
07-07-2012, 08:17 PM
LOL, glad you used the quotation marks around sell high.

The idea that the Reds can sell high on Stubbs this year when he had a 32 at bat hitless streak, is currently hitting .637 OPS, is coming off a two hundred strikeout season, and has about a .670 OPS over his last 900 plate appearances is a little remote.

Maybe, if he gets real hot, the Reds can "sell medium."

Don't forget that he's arb eligible after the season. Even with those horrible numbers, he's going to get a decent raise. If the Reds can't include Stubbs in a deal, they'll probobly keep him around in 2013, but after 2013, when he's second year arb eligible, I'd say he won't be worth his arb money and will be a strong non-tender candidate. I don't think any team dealing for Stubbs will be viewing him as a guy with "3 years of control" so expectations on a return should be fairly low. He can be a guyto package with a minor leaguer for a better CF. The team acquiring him will look at him as a place holder for the guy they deal to the Reds and as a lottery ticket. The real trade target from their persepctive will be whoever Stubbs is packaged with.

membengal
07-07-2012, 08:36 PM
A few years ago, I hoped Stubbs could channel this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/camermi01.shtml

Instead, he's found his inner this guy:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/reedje03.shtml

Sadly.

(Mike Cameron is the first link and Jeremy Reed the second)

Dan
07-08-2012, 05:14 PM
I share a lot of posters' dismay at Drew Stubbs, but over his career he has the most wins of any position player drafted in the first few rounds (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=year_round&year_ID=2006&draft_round=1&draft_type=junreg) in 2006.

Vottomatic
07-08-2012, 06:13 PM
Last 39 at-bats, 2 hits, 2 rbi, 14 K's.

dougdirt
07-08-2012, 06:15 PM
Last 39 at-bats, 2 hits, 2 rbi, 14 K's.

So his BABIP in that stretch is .042?

oneupper
07-08-2012, 06:20 PM
So his BABIP in that stretch is .042?

Wouldn't it be .080? Since Ks aren't in play?

dougdirt
07-08-2012, 06:23 PM
Wouldn't it be .080? Since Ks aren't in play?

He had 2 hits, but one was a HR. 1-24.

757690
07-08-2012, 07:51 PM
If Stubbs gets a single in his first game after the break, and nothing else, he will have the rare 4 game cycle, in which he got a homer, triple, double and single in each game and nothing else. :thumbup:

PuffyPig
07-08-2012, 09:27 PM
If Stubbs gets a single in his first game after the break, and nothing else, he will have the rare 4 game cycle, in which he got a homer, triple, double and single in each game and nothing else. :thumbup:

Boom, I'm glad someone is paying attention.

Always Red
07-08-2012, 09:55 PM
Last 39 at-bats, 2 hits, 2 rbi, 14 K's.

He's channeling Bernie Mac, in Mr. 3000.

But this isn't fiction, and Stubbs isn't 47 years old. :eek:

reds44
10-08-2012, 12:31 PM
I just want to say how much more I enjoy Drew Stubbs now that he's hitting in the 8 hole. He made a nice play to cut off a ball in the gap in game 1 and he did it again on the Giants only hit last night. Then you watch Pagan misplay his triple and you realize how nice it was to have Stubbs running around out there. And he has a hit in each of the first two games.

Tom Servo
10-08-2012, 12:35 PM
So far starting Stubbs has been exactly the right choice for both games.

RedEye
10-08-2012, 12:38 PM
So far starting Stubbs has been exactly the right choice for both games.

I've counted at least three times that he's saved runs by cutting balls off in the gaps. In a place like AT&T, that's invaluable, no matter what he does at the plate. It will be interesting to see whether Dusty values him starting at GABP, which is not as spacious. Might it be worth starting Heisey for the extra offense?

mattfeet
10-08-2012, 12:49 PM
Stubbs has hits in 2-straight games and squared up a few other balls. Im not sure, at this point, that Heisey is ANY increase in offense. This team is built around pitching and defense and Id be floored if Stubbs werent the starter tomorrow night.

Patrick Bateman
10-08-2012, 12:54 PM
As always, Stubbs makes sense against southpaws. He had good looks against Bumgartner, and even managed to handle a righty after that. Not sure if he started feeling a little more comfortable after batting against the lefty or what. Also makes sense having Stubbs in the spacious AT park OF. There were a few cut-off plays that Stubbs made very nicely that I'm not sure what Heisey does.

Still, if we have a home game against a righty, I think Heisey is the right choice as his issues are minimized, and allows an extra reasonable bat in the lineup.

redsmetz
10-08-2012, 01:16 PM
Funny little state we kept hearing late in the season as to what the Reds record was when Drew scored in a game? He's scored in both games and we're 2-0. I like that.

crazybob60
10-08-2012, 01:37 PM
It was also nice to know last night that with Hanigan on first and Stubbs at the plate, that the DP was going to minimized. Sure enough, what happens? Stubbs hits it to second, but low and behold he beats it out at first. Its nice to have that. Despite his hitting woes.

mdccclxix
10-08-2012, 01:50 PM
I thought Stubbs looked like a general out there in CF. His demeanor has been sharp. He catches the ball with ease and fires it right back in to the pitcher to keep the pace. He is a nice comfort when you have the lead on the road.

CesarGeronimo
10-08-2012, 02:38 PM
I just want to say how much more I enjoy Drew Stubbs now that he's hitting in the 8 hole. He made a nice play to cut off a ball in the gap in game 1 and he did it again on the Giants only hit last night. Then you watch Pagan misplay his triple and you realize how nice it was to have Stubbs running around out there. And he has a hit in each of the first two games.

Agree with you completely. I'm okay with Drew in the 8 hole because of what he brings on defense. Next, they should tell him to forget about cutting down on his swing to try increase contact and limit his strikeouts, and go back to taking a full rip and trying to hit with power.

I(heart)Freel
10-08-2012, 03:46 PM
I couldn't help think the Giants might want to trade for him this off-season.