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UK Reds Fan
05-04-2010, 10:36 AM
How much longer can Dusty justify not playing Hannigan and Janish more.

1. Hanigan is OPS 1.056 and Janish 1.013
2. Hernandez is OPS .700 and OCab .636
3. Both are higher thought of from defensive standpoint.

Janish's PT has been extremely absurd considering what OCab is giving us.

ian_madden
05-04-2010, 10:47 AM
I felt that Janish should have been brought in to pinch run for Rolen in extra innings last night. I realize nothing came of it but Janish has been a clutch hitter and is a MUCH better defensive player than anyone on the team. If nothing else i think that Janish should come in for OCab in the 7th or 8th inning every game. This will save Ocabs legs and give Janish some ab.

As for Haningan, I'm not sold that more playing time is going to help this team or him. I really think he is a platoon guy.

Vottomatic
05-04-2010, 11:19 AM
Agree about Janish.

I think Hernandez has quality at-bats. And he had that guy thrown out dead nutz last night at second, if not for Cabrera's error. Perfect throw.

I like the platoon of Hernandez and Hanigan. Keep them both fresh. I think it's a great situation.

Janish should be brought in for defensive purposes every game in the 7th and beyond. He should also get a couple of starts a week to keep him fresh.

Griffey012
05-04-2010, 11:21 AM
I felt that Janish should have been brought in to pinch run for Rolen in extra innings last night. I realize nothing came of it but Janish has been a clutch hitter and is a MUCH better defensive player than anyone on the team. If nothing else i think that Janish should come in for OCab in the 7th or 8th inning every game. This will save Ocabs legs and give Janish some ab.

As for Haningan, I'm not sold that more playing time is going to help this team or him. I really think he is a platoon guy.

Definitely have to agree with that. Right now we are getting a 1.000 OPS out of Hanigan, and Ramon is getting on base at a .393 clip. We should be very happy with the total production we are getting out of the platoon, I know I am right now. I am a believer once you get Hanigan over a certain amount of PT his production will take a strong hit...let's remember he started off last year hitting very well and took a sharp dive after Ramon got hurt.

Right now are platoon is working, lets not break it.

sivman17
05-04-2010, 12:55 PM
I couldn't believe Baker didn't have Hanigan pinch hit last night instead of Cairo. Great opportunity for a go-ahead RBI and to give Leake the W. He goes with f'in Cairo who is absolutely gawd awful.

Griffey012
05-04-2010, 12:58 PM
I couldn't believe Baker didn't have Hanigan pinch hit last night instead of Cairo. Great opportunity for a go-ahead RBI and to give Leake the W. He goes with f'in Cairo who is absolutely gawd awful.

It's well known Dusty doesn't want to pinch hit his backup catcher, and I am pretty sure pretty much every manager has the same mentality. If you run out of outfielder's you can put someone in LF to play. If Ramon gets hurt and Hanigan is already out of the game, who is going to catch? That is another reason we need Castillo to fill Cairo's role because he can fill in as a catcher if needed and play pretty much anywhere.

PhillipsHead
05-04-2010, 03:34 PM
Everyone needs to get off the Janish wagon. Hitting him more often will just get EVERYONE'S hopes up once his average drops to that .220 range of last year. LET IT GO!!!!

O-Cab leads our team in RBIs, so until Votto decides to step his game up in that department, everyone else needs to step down...

nemesis
05-04-2010, 03:58 PM
Everyone needs to get off the Janish wagon. Hitting him more often will just get EVERYONE'S hopes up once his average drops to that .220 range of last year. LET IT GO!!!!

O-Cab leads our team in RBIs, so until Votto decides to step his game up in that department, everyone else needs to step down...

He leads the team in RBI's cause our 8 hole hitter usually has the highest OBP on the team... (Hanigan .500 / Henandez .393) and our 1 and 2 hitters who was O-Cab for most of the season has a .288 OBP. Joey's game has been fine. It's the guy's in front of him (O-Cab, Phillips, Stubbs) who need to step their game up.

Janish posted a .296 OBP last year. I would bet my bottom dollar he could post a .260/.320/.370 split for the season with near Gold Glove level defense... Vs O-Cab who has a .250/.288/.348 this year with a horrible split against RH's of .214/.221/.343... That's a very Taveras like .564 OPS... While on the other hand in limited playing time Janish is Crushing RH's... Not to mention 1/3rd the range and 3/4ths the arm that Janish has all for only $3 Million dollars more...

1990REDS
05-04-2010, 04:01 PM
Everyone needs to get off the Janish wagon. Hitting him more often will just get EVERYONE'S hopes up once his average drops to that .220 range of last year. LET IT GO!!!!

O-Cab leads our team in RBIs, so until Votto decides to step his game up in that department, everyone else needs to step down...

Agreed. Remember one of the reasons we signed O-Cab was because they didnt think Janish had enough offence to play SS everyday. But he does have a great glove.

Griffey012
05-04-2010, 04:40 PM
He leads the team in RBI's cause our 8 hole hitter usually has the highest OBP on the team... (Hanigan .500 / Henandez .393) and our 1 and 2 hitters who was O-Cab for most of the season has a .288 OBP. Joey's game has been fine. It's the guy's in front of him (O-Cab, Phillips, Stubbs) who need to step their game up.

Janish posted a .296 OBP last year. I would bet my bottom dollar he could post a .260/.320/.370 split for the season with near Gold Glove level defense... Vs O-Cab who has a .250/.288/.348 this year with a horrible split against RH's of .214/.221/.343... That's a very Taveras like .564 OPS... While on the other hand in limited playing time Janish is Crushing RH's... Not to mention 1/3rd the range and 3/4ths the arm that Janish has all for only $3 Million dollars more...

Why not look up that stats before making your claims? How many time does the 8 hole hitter get on base when they are leading off the inning? Cause if there is 1 out he sure isn't gonna be on base when OCab gets up because we have an automatic out at pitcher and leadoff half the time.

Ocab is leading the team in RBI's because he gets the job done with a runner is on 3rd with less than 1 out, unlike the rest of our team. He has 19 ab's with RISP and 10 RBI. Meanwhile Votto has 10 RBI's with 24 ab's with RISP.

Yet the reason Joey is tied with OCab for the team lead in RBI is OCAB'S FAULT??? Please explain that one to me...

In those 19 ab's OCab has k'd 2 times, where Votto has k'd 7 times in his 24 ab's. When you put the ball in play with RISP you make things happen and runs get scored.

Has it occured to you that Joey just hasn't quite got it going at the plate yet...and hasn't gotten it going fully with RISP. It's not OCab's fault. It's Joey's fault. But hey, since we are Reds fans we might as well make another excuse for someone performing below their typical ways.

GIDP
05-04-2010, 05:32 PM
Hard to get RBI chances when no one is on in front of you.

Griffey012
05-04-2010, 06:03 PM
Hard to get RBI chances when no one is on in front of you.

Take a wild guess at who leads the team with 24 AB's with RISP...Joey Votto. I am not sure why everyone is complaining he doesn't get RBI chances because of the guys in front of him. He has the most RBI chances on the entire team.

GIDP
05-04-2010, 06:31 PM
Take a wild guess at who leads the team with 24 AB's with RISP...Joey Votto. I am not sure why everyone is complaining he doesn't get RBI chances because of the guys in front of him. He has the most RBI chances on the entire team.
and hes hitting with a .983 OPS in those situations. Yes Cabrera has been good at knocking in runners but producing for everyone else behind him? Hes been bad. Votto should have more RBIs and the reason he doesnt has been Stubbs and Cabrera not being there.

Votto isnt even in the top 40 for ABs with runners on base. Cabrera is a reason why Votto doesnt have more RBIs. Because he has knocked a lot of them in before Votto and also because he hasnt been on base for Votto to knock him in.

Griffey012
05-04-2010, 08:08 PM
and hes hitting with a .983 OPS in those situations. Yes Cabrera has been good at knocking in runners but producing for everyone else behind him? Hes been bad. Votto should have more RBIs and the reason he doesnt has been Stubbs and Cabrera not being there.

Votto isnt even in the top 40 for ABs with runners on base. Cabrera is a reason why Votto doesnt have more RBIs. Because he has knocked a lot of them in before Votto and also because he hasnt been on base for Votto to knock him in.

Including the fact that OCab has been knocking in some runs and taking away some of Votto's chances makes the point much more valid. The original person who I got onto the topic with seemed to be blaming it all on OCab because of his lack of OBP, and claimed the only reason OCab was getting in runners was because of opportunities. But didn't mention the fact Votto was missing some oppotunities because OCab was getting his job done also.

You can't deny the fact that Votto hasn't been knocking in runners at as high of a rate as he should be. 24 AB's with RISP and 10 rbi's is about an average ratio, but the good hitters in the league have that ratio about 2:1. It's all a pretty pointless debate less than 100 AB's into the season either way.

GIDP
05-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Im just saying keeping Cabrera in because of "RBI" doesnt really matter that much because if he hits for a .600 OPS hes not going to be knocking them in at the rate he was.

nemesis
05-04-2010, 11:47 PM
Including the fact that OCab has been knocking in some runs and taking away some of Votto's chances makes the point much more valid. The original person who I got onto the topic with seemed to be blaming it all on OCab because of his lack of OBP, and claimed the only reason OCab was getting in runners was because of opportunities. But didn't mention the fact Votto was missing some oppotunities because OCab was getting his job done also.

You can't deny the fact that Votto hasn't been knocking in runners at as high of a rate as he should be. 24 AB's with RISP and 10 rbi's is about an average ratio, but the good hitters in the league have that ratio about 2:1. It's all a pretty pointless debate less than 100 AB's into the season either way.

I can see your point but as GIDP concurred, Votto as a 3 hole hitter on one of 30 teams in baseball isn't in the top 40 in opportunities. Joey struggled a little bit at the beginning of the year. Mainly because OC isn't getting on base and most of his RBI's were sac flies or groundouts with a couple HR's mixed in. That leaves Joey up what, 70+ times in 30 games with no one in scoring position as once again, the 3 hole hitter... Hardly his fault.

Griffey012
05-05-2010, 12:12 AM
Im just saying keeping Cabrera in because of "RBI" doesnt really matter that much because if he hits for a .600 OPS hes not going to be knocking them in at the rate he was.

Cabrera won't keep OPS'ing .600, it will probably be around .700 which we all know isn't great, but with a combined .700 OPS he had 77 RBI's last season. Janish may have a higher OPS, but he probably won't sniff 40 RBI's.

And believe it or not, Dusty has adjusted and gotten OCab into more of an RBI role and out of the getting on base role, even though we kinda stunk offensively tonight, this lineup has been turning out well so far. If OCab keeps on his 85 RBI pace, we gotta leave him in the lineup regardless of OPS.

GIDP
05-05-2010, 12:34 AM
Cabrera has knocked in 70% of the runners that were on 3rd base this year. Thats extremely high. For example last year the highest was 57% (using a PA limit of 400).

Overall hes knocked in 28% of the runners that were on base. The leader in 2009 was only at 19.8%

Hes doing it at a high rate but it wont continue. My point is keeping him in the line up and using RBIs as a reason why isnt really enough of a reason to keep the guy in the line up or to justify not playing the other guy with better defense more. Im not saying bench the guy but the reason to keep him in isnt really valid in my mind.

Griffey012
05-05-2010, 12:38 AM
I can see your point but as GIDP concurred, Votto as a 3 hole hitter on one of 30 teams in baseball isn't in the top 40 in opportunities. Joey struggled a little bit at the beginning of the year. Mainly because OC isn't getting on base and most of his RBI's were sac flies or groundouts with a couple HR's mixed in. That leaves Joey up what, 70+ times in 30 games with no one in scoring position as once again, the 3 hole hitter... Hardly his fault.

He is also hitting hitting .250 with a .727 OPS with nobody on as compared to a .303 with a .973 OPS with nobody on last year. So far this year out 1-2 "punch" is just as bad as last season if not a little better. In reality I think, Joey is just starting to get his timing together and really kick it into the next gear, I don't think it is a result of any other player on the team.

Surprisingly, Dusty has addressed this issue of OCab getting RBI's but not on base. And Votto has been getting his stroke back of late, it could be because of the change, you may be right, or just too early to make conclusions. The important part is he is turning it up, quickly.

In 08 he was up 21.8% of the time and had an RBI every 2.09 AB's w/RISP. Last year Votto was up 28.5% of the time with RISP and had an RBI every 2.34 AB's w/RISP. And this year he is up 26.3% of the time with RISP and has an RBI every 2.4 AB's w/RISP. His RBI numbers aren't far off of last seasons, but were best during his rookie campaign. Maybe because Griffey and Dunn were "clogging" up the bases in front of him, or maybe the league has adjusted a bit, or a combination. Guess we will see over the remainder of the season, lets all just hope he becomes a monster.

nemesis
05-05-2010, 08:39 AM
He is also hitting hitting .250 with a .727 OPS with nobody on as compared to a .303 with a .973 OPS with nobody on last year. So far this year out 1-2 "punch" is just as bad as last season if not a little better. In reality I think, Joey is just starting to get his timing together and really kick it into the next gear, I don't think it is a result of any other player on the team.

Surprisingly, Dusty has addressed this issue of OCab getting RBI's but not on base. And Votto has been getting his stroke back of late, it could be because of the change, you may be right, or just too early to make conclusions. The important part is he is turning it up, quickly.

In 08 he was up 21.8% of the time and had an RBI every 2.09 AB's w/RISP. Last year Votto was up 28.5% of the time with RISP and had an RBI every 2.34 AB's w/RISP. And this year he is up 26.3% of the time with RISP and has an RBI every 2.4 AB's w/RISP. His RBI numbers aren't far off of last seasons, but were best during his rookie campaign. Maybe because Griffey and Dunn were "clogging" up the bases in front of him, or maybe the league has adjusted a bit, or a combination. Guess we will see over the remainder of the season, lets all just hope he becomes a monster.

+1

Griffey012
05-05-2010, 11:04 AM
Cabrera has knocked in 70% of the runners that were on 3rd base this year. Thats extremely high. For example last year the highest was 57% (using a PA limit of 400).

Overall hes knocked in 28% of the runners that were on base. The leader in 2009 was only at 19.8%

Hes doing it at a high rate but it wont continue. My point is keeping him in the line up and using RBIs as a reason why isnt really enough of a reason to keep the guy in the line up or to justify not playing the other guy with better defense more. Im not saying bench the guy but the reason to keep him in isnt really valid in my mind.

As long as he is producing at these extremely high rates he should be left in. A guy racking up RBI's is plenty reason to justify keeping him in the lineup, cause after all the objective is to score runs. As you mentioned he won't continue to keep up the high rates, but as long as he does, there is reason to keep him in the lineup.

GIDP
05-05-2010, 12:37 PM
As long as he is producing at these extremely high rates he should be left in. A guy racking up RBI's is plenty reason to justify keeping him in the lineup, cause after all the objective is to score runs. As you mentioned he won't continue to keep up the high rates, but as long as he does, there is reason to keep him in the lineup.
Thats fine but I dont think because "hes knocking them in" is enough of a reason to keep a guy in the line up. 7 of his RBIs have came from a guy on 3rd. For him to continue to knock guys in hes going to have to keep having guys on 3rd at a very unsustainable level.


No doubt hes been knocking them in, hes just not going to keep knocking runners standing on 3rd at a 70% rate.