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View Full Version : Drew Stubbs: Why Doesn't He Make Enough Contact?



forfreelin04
05-05-2010, 05:30 PM
To expound on what I was talking about in the game thread, I think the mechanics of Drew's swing is causing him to miss wayyyy to many pitches.

Keep in mind, Stubss was a K machine before he ever played in the Reds system. At UT, Stubbs led the team in strikeouts for three years. "04, 05, and 06" And when I say led, I don't mean by a couple strikeouts. I'm talking nearly double the guy behind him.

http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-basebl/stats/tex-m-basebl-stats.html

Okay, we know that he didn't improve much with the K's in the Reds Minor League System.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=stubbs001and

Obviously, we know nothing has changed since he's been with the major league team. So how to fix this? Many will say, he is what he is. He's a guy with Rickey Henderson speed with the plate approach of Mark Reynolds. However, Drew doesn't hit homeruns like Reynolds. He's striking out every 3.2 at bats compared to the MLB average of nearly 5.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/stubbdr01-bat.shtml

Now, someone brought up the fact that if Drew only learned how to make contact, the chances of him getting on base were that much better because of his speed to 1st base. Brantley mentioned today that there is a certain sway in Drew's swing. I did some research and looked at some video on MLB.com. I already knew what Brantley meant, (seen it live in Dayton) but I wanted to be sure I just wasn't imagining it. It is there.

I tried to find a GIF of his swing to post but couldn't. If anyone knows of a good site, please PM and let me know. It's so much easier to describe mechanics when its in slow motion.

Anyways, Drew's "sway" is him overextending himself on his step towards the pitcher. When he steps, his body comes with the weight transfer. This causes his hands to drag behind him, causing a bit of a dip on the level of his hands. By throwing the hands back at various levels, (depending on weight transfer) Drew is constantly swinging from a different hand level. His slight uppercut in his swing only makes this worse. This causes the swing to be extremely long in the zone causing A TON of swings and misses.

I searched the web to back up this information and found this message board.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8291034941/m/4351082962?r=9611025962#9611025962

They talk about frames in a swing. I guess Drew's swing is 5.5 frames long, which is crazy long for a blue chip prospect. From what I understand, the frames actually correspond to the video frames during Drew's swing on Quicktime.

Now my prescription would be too to start Drew's Swing sooner with a kickback like Gary Sheffield or a no step like Chase Utley. Each would dramatically reduce the moving parts in Stubbs swing. I've always been a huge fan of the no step since it is pure weight transfer and leaves almost nothing to chance.

Okay..... now back to work.

Mario-Rijo
05-05-2010, 06:42 PM
Interesting I was thinking bat speed all along but this would give the appearance of a lack of bat speed if true. Sounds a little like Jay as well when is going bad his body is "out in front", if that is what your partially suggesting with Drew.

RedsManRick
05-05-2010, 06:57 PM
We heard a few years back how the Reds were really working with Stubbs to cut down on his swing. I was under the impression that this was his cut-down swing. Perhaps not?

It seems like he's got decent "speed" from a velocity standpoint, as the distance on his HR the other day suggests, but that it's just a very long swing giving him too little time to adjust on breaking balls (because he has to start so early) and not enough quickness to catch up to high heat.

Mario-Rijo
05-05-2010, 06:57 PM
Interesting I was thinking bat speed all along but this would give the appearance of a lack of bat speed if true. Sounds a little like Jay as well when is going bad his body is "out in front", if that is what your partially suggesting with Drew.

And as I meandered thru that message board above I read this part, don't know how much truth to it but it makes some sense to me.


Posted February 02, 2008 08:22 PM
Lastly, Swingbuilder, your comments about Stubbs are very telling. Yes, the Reds think they can make him a player, but they made a multi-million dollar bet on it that has yet to pan out. His hitting stats so far are dreadful as you know so DMac's admonitions were spot on, and this was before the draft. Maybe others were unimpressed, but his foresight made a huge impression on me and from then on I've been very sensitive to frame counts.

As you are also aware, the line of Stubbs (from Baseball America) was that he was an athletic freak, but there was a concern from "a few scouts" that he had a slow bat. OK, many scouts don't use DMac's techniques but I have been told that other organizations do count frames identically to DMac. It's an easy decision for me. I want the frame count of my players under 5 (I am very proud my 14 year old son is now at 4.5), and a swing speed above 75 mph. I'll take my chances with that. A quick, powerful swing isn't a bad thing to have, even if it doesn't meet the Tom Guerry seal of approval.

-JJA

forfreelin04
05-05-2010, 07:36 PM
And as I meandered thru that message board above I read this part, don't know how much truth to it but it makes some sense to me.

Yeah, Stubbs frame rate was 5.5 out of college. I wonder if its improved?

Judging by the strikeouts, not much.

Like I said, I think you can change the mechanics of his swing and make it quicker. He's a tall guy with a straight up batting stance. Certainly is not the atypical leadoff guy out of the Michael Bourn, Nyjer Morgan type mold.


Eric Davis certainly wasn't someone that screams fundamentals at the plate but Davis kept his weight back for an insane amount of time. He too generated his swing from his wrists and it could often be long at times. Funny how Davis and Stubbs are comparable in skill sets.

Perhaps, if Stubbs exagerrated the weight transfer like Davis, he too could generate more contact, power, and bat speed.

I wonder if Davis had anything to say to Stubbs during ST.

Brutus
05-05-2010, 07:37 PM
We heard a few years back how the Reds were really working with Stubbs to cut down on his swing. I was under the impression that this was his cut-down swing. Perhaps not?

It seems like he's got decent "speed" from a velocity standpoint, as the distance on his HR the other day suggests, but that it's just a very long swing giving him too little time to adjust on breaking balls (because he has to start so early) and not enough quickness to catch up to high heat.

Agreed. I don't think it's a matter of speed but the long, sweeping motion that is causing him longer to get around. Sometimes it seems as if he's extending his arms too early prior to making contact. Ideally, you would want to explode into full extension on the swing at the point in which the ball meets the bat to maximize contact and power. I'm not sure he's always doing that.

Falls City Beer
05-05-2010, 07:52 PM
I have a theory: AAA pitching sucks and MLB pitching is hella tough.

dougdirt
05-05-2010, 08:28 PM
Long swing, takes too many pitches that he should swing at and has trouble recognizing off speed pitches.

MississippiRed
05-05-2010, 10:47 PM
Long swing, takes too many pitches that he should swing at and has trouble recognizing off speed pitches.

and that's a triple whammy!

VR
05-05-2010, 11:49 PM
Home run swing in a built-for-singles body.


Even with two strikes, he's swinging to hit it out of the stadium.

fearofpopvol1
05-06-2010, 12:06 AM
Maybe he should go back to his Dayton days and "choke up" on the bat a bit more? At least when he's down 0-2?

Mario-Rijo
05-06-2010, 12:41 AM
Maybe he should go back to his Dayton days and "choke up" on the bat a bit more? At least when he's down 0-2?

He already does that, I believe all the time.

reds44
05-06-2010, 04:49 AM
Long swing, takes too many pitches that he should swing at and has trouble recognizing off speed pitches.
So why were you so high on him?

dabvu2498
05-06-2010, 07:58 AM
Home run swing in a built-for-singles body.


Even with two strikes, he's swinging to hit it out of the stadium.

He's listed at 6'4", 205 lbs.

Not exactly David Eckstein.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 08:51 AM
I have a theory: AAA pitching sucks and MLB pitching is hella tough.

While I agree, Stubbs minors and college numbers suggest he doesn't make basic contact enough. Which was always the rub with Stubbs, but the Reds chose to ignore that. They also chose to ignore it through the minors. Now its on the big stage and WOW it can't be ignored now.

What's sad is the fact, many organizations probably overvalued his "freakish" abilities. (Cue the "white buffalo") He has power (the potential), speed, and plays a rangy center. Now that the Reds have let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, they can't package him as sweetner in a trade to get a vet pitcher or left fielder.

Given the right location, you and I might strike him out. And I'm actually quite serious. His lack of contact is eye popping. :eek:

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 08:55 AM
So why were you so high on him?

Yeah, Doug?

Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm guessing the skill set was to alluring to pass up?

Kind of like the really pretty girl you date in High School. She's cool, funny, and smart. However, that ill placed mole is an eyesore, and you just can't stop staring at it.

TRF
05-06-2010, 09:30 AM
In doug's defense, he didn't want the Reds to pick him. But he tends to support most of the team's decisions, especially regarding #1 picks. He was/is a staunch supporter of Devin Mesoraco, when NOBODY was supporting him. And that is looking like a good call.

My problem with Stubbs the player is he was never developed properly. He was rushed through the system with no plan for what type of hitter he should be based on his skillset. All anyone saw was the blazing speed and someone said leadoff hitter. He could be a very good middle of the order hitter, a 25 HR guy that happens to have speed and can steal a base. You know like Brandon Phillips thinks he is.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 09:41 AM
In doug's defense, he didn't want the Reds to pick him. But he tends to support most of the team's decisions, especially regarding #1 picks. He was/is a staunch supporter of Devin Mesoraco, when NOBODY was supporting him. And that is looking like a good call.

My problem with Stubbs the player is he was never developed properly. He was rushed through the system with no plan for what type of hitter he should be based on his skillset. All anyone saw was the blazing speed and someone said leadoff hitter. He could be a very good middle of the order hitter, a 25 HR guy that happens to have speed and can steal a base. You know like Brandon Phillips thinks he is.

Recently, he's looked better.

However, can you really judge a number 1 draft pick until he actually gets to the bigs?

While Meso may end up being a quality ML catcher, there are a ton of catchers that come from the depths of the draft to be average at their position. Logic seems to favor quality pitching in the draft: early and often.

And, in no way, am I bashing Doug. Stubbs was a scout's dream. Like you said though, his development is nearly non-existent. He's been essentially the same player.... he's just facing better pitching now.

Sea Ray
05-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Recently, he's looked better.

However, can you really judge a number 1 draft pick until he actually gets to the bigs?

While Meso may end up being a quality ML catcher, there are a ton of catchers that come from the depths of the draft to be average at their position. Logic seems to favor quality pitching in the draft: early and often.

And, in no way, am I bashing Doug. Stubbs was a scout's dream. Like you said though, his development is nearly non-existent. He's been essentially the same player.... he's just facing better pitching now.

My how the RZ aura can change on a player and I mean quickly. Just a month ago after Stubbs hit that grand slam there were folks touting him as a potential All Star.

I think his true landing point will be somewhere between the two. Until Dickerson got hurt I was for sending Stubbs to AAA to work on things and gain some confidence. For now I'd like to see Heisey get a few starts. We don't have wonderful CF options so as a small market club we're left with the hope that a guy like Stubbs will improve. A club like ours can't go out and buy 8 sure bets when setting up its starting lineup.

I do agree with Doug when he said that Stubbs is not one of the club's biggest problems

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 10:18 AM
My how the RZ aura can change on a player and I mean quickly. Just a month ago after Stubbs hit that grand slam there were folks touting him as a potential All Star.

I think his true landing point will be somewhere between the two. Until Dickerson got hurt I was for sending Stubbs to AAA to work on things and gain some confidence. For now I'd like to see Heisey get a few starts. We don't have wonderful CF options so as a small market club we're left with the hope that a guy like Stubbs will improve. A club like ours can't go out and buy 8 sure bets when setting up its starting lineup.

I do agree with Doug when he said that Stubbs is not one of the club's biggest problems

Their leadoff hitter (getting probably 5 at bats per game) not getting on base is A BIG PROBLEM. It's been a BIG problem for several years now.

The starting pitching is starting to throw much better. The bullpen has been spotty at times, but overall hasn't been an eyesore. (Minus some bouts with control) Stubbs has been consistently poor with the stick for over a month now.

I don't want to bench him or send him AAA. I just want him moved down to seventh or preferably 8th in the order.

TRF
05-06-2010, 10:24 AM
My how the RZ aura can change on a player and I mean quickly. Just a month ago after Stubbs hit that grand slam there were folks touting him as a potential All Star.

I think his true landing point will be somewhere between the two. Until Dickerson got hurt I was for sending Stubbs to AAA to work on things and gain some confidence. For now I'd like to see Heisey get a few starts. We don't have wonderful CF options so as a small market club we're left with the hope that a guy like Stubbs will improve. A club like ours can't go out and buy 8 sure bets when setting up its starting lineup.

I do agree with Doug when he said that Stubbs is not one of the club's biggest problems

Some have wavered back and forth, it's the nature of being a fan. Some have held fast too. On both sides.

BRM
05-06-2010, 10:42 AM
Their leadoff hitter (getting probably 5 at bats per game) not getting on base is A BIG PROBLEM. It's been a BIG problem for several years now.

The starting pitching is starting to throw much better. The bullpen has been spotty at times, but overall hasn't been an eyesore. (Minus some bouts with control) Stubbs has been consistently poor with the stick for over a month now.

I don't want to bench him or send him AAA. I just want him moved down to seventh or preferably 8th in the order.

Which means Stubbs isn't really the problem. Dusty's lineups are.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 10:48 AM
Which means Stubbs isn't really the problem. Dusty's lineups are.

True, but a hitter with a .267 OBP really doesn't have a place on a Major League starting lineup.

That being said, I think he gets healthy in the 8th hole. Sees more fastballs, gets one at bat less per game.

bucksfan2
05-06-2010, 10:52 AM
I think Stubbs is off and guessing at pitches. He is struggling right now and thats about it. He may never be a great hitter but he also isn't a sub .200 hitter.

BRM
05-06-2010, 10:55 AM
True, but a hitter with a .267 OBP really doesn't have a place on a Major League starting lineup.

That being said, I think he gets healthy in the 8th hole. Sees more fastballs, gets one at bat less per game.

I agree with both statements. The .267 has to improve or he needs to get sent down. Move him down, give him time to improve. It's not like there's any better options at this point.

VR
05-06-2010, 11:20 AM
He's listed at 6'4", 205 lbs.

Not exactly David Eckstein.


Got me. But to me it's akin to Prince Fielder trying to adapt his game to get more infield hits and bunt singles.

Body aside....he's the fastest guy from home to first that I've witnessed in a Reds uniform. That does no good when you're striking out or hitting fly balls at an alarming rate.

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 11:43 AM
So why were you so high on him?

Because as poor as he has shown, he isn't this bad. I figured he would probably be a .250/.340/.400 type hitter now and could develop into a .260/.350/.450 hitter in the future with plus defense. If Drew Stubbs could be a .350/.450 guy, and I still think that there is a chance of that, the guy is an elite center fielder. If the guy turns out to be a .700 OPS guy, he is still a quality major leaguer who is overall around league average.

It isn't that was I 'so high on him', its that I was higher than most others on this board on him.

Right now Stubbs has a BABIP below .250. For a player with his wheels, there is simply no reason to expect that to continue. Yeah, he strikes out a lot, but he is walking at a good rate as well and I expect the power to show back up soon enough too.

TRF
05-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Right now Stubbs has a BABIP below .250. For a player with his wheels, there is simply no reason to expect that to continue. Yeah, he strikes out a lot, but he is walking at a good rate as well and I expect the power to show back up soon enough too.

The power has to show up in the first place. His approach is all wrong at the plate. And he's ill suited to leadoff.

The Reds have got to stop seeing him as a speedster first. He should be a power guy, even if that doesn't mean HR power, but gap power. Janis in about a quarter of the AB's Stubbs has, has 1 more double. That's ridiculous, and shows that he isn't close to using the natural power he has. His approach needs to be that of a middle of the order hitter. He needs to be more aggressive. The BB's will still come when pitchers see he can hurt them.

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 12:01 PM
The power has to show up in the first place. His approach is all wrong at the plate. And he's ill suited to leadoff.

The Reds have got to stop seeing him as a speedster first. He should be a power guy, even if that doesn't mean HR power, but gap power. Janis in about a quarter of the AB's Stubbs has, has 1 more double. That's ridiculous, and shows that he isn't close to using the natural power he has. His approach needs to be that of a middle of the order hitter. He needs to be more aggressive. The BB's will still come when pitchers see he can hurt them.

I think the power has showed up in the past. Dude hit 8 HR's last year in 150 at bats. I do agree that he needs to be out of the leadoff spot. I have never wanted him there.

Spring~Fields
05-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Because as poor as he has shown, he isn't this bad.

Right now Stubbs has a BABIP below .250. For a player with his wheels, there is simply no reason to expect that to continue. Yeah, he strikes out a lot, but he is walking at a good rate as well and I expect the power to show back up soon enough too.

BABIP
Cairo .143
Nix .217
Gomes .226
Stubbs .230
Rolen .239
Cabrera .253
Phillips .270
Bruce .275
Janish .294
Hernandez .302
Votto .362
Hanigan .412

I donít know, but I get the impression that when there are various players in the .700 ops area that lower BABIP might be a norm for them.

A lot of bad luck on this team.

TRF
05-06-2010, 12:06 PM
I think the power has showed up in the past. Dude hit 8 HR's last year in 150 at bats. I do agree that he needs to be out of the leadoff spot. I have never wanted him there.

Maybe he was more aggressive due to the promotion. Could have been a spurt of luck. Whatever it was, he isn't doing it now.

I'm not in favor of him hitting 8th. I think its potentially a waste of his tools. 6th works for me. But IMO he gets another month to turn it around. If he can't, find someone that will hit.

Sea Ray
05-06-2010, 12:13 PM
BABIP
Cairo .143
Nix .217
Gomes .226
Stubbs .230
Rolen .239
Cabrera .253
Phillips .270
Bruce .275
Janish .294
Hernandez .302
Votto .362
Hanigan .412

I donít know, but I get the impression that when there are various players in the .700 ops area that lower BABIP might be a norm for them.

A lot of bad luck on this team.

I've never been a big fan of the BABIP stat. It assumes all balls in play are created equal. Some balls are long flyouts and some guys go through stretches where the ball never leaves the infield. I'd expect a line drive hitter like Votto to have a higher BABIP than a guy like Stubbs or Nix who are challenged to make "good contact".

Homer Bailey
05-06-2010, 12:19 PM
I've never been a big fan of the BABIP stat. It assumes all balls in play are created equal. Some balls are long flyouts and some guys go through stretches where the ball never leaves the infield. I'd expect a line drive hitter like Votto to have a higher BABIP than a guy like Stubbs or Nix who are challenged to make "good contact".

If you dive a little deeper, you will see that Stubbs has a terrible 13% LD rate, but for a guy that hits 50% of his batted balls on the ground, he should have a much higher BABIP, and it will be higher at year end.

RedsManRick
05-06-2010, 12:30 PM
Right now Stubbs has a BABIP below .250. For a player with his wheels, there is simply no reason to expect that to continue. Yeah, he strikes out a lot, but he is walking at a good rate as well and I expect the power to show back up soon enough too.

Unfortunately, that .250 BABIP is exactly in line 12.9% line drive rate. Sure we could add 20 or 30 points to that expectation due to his speed, but he's just not making enough solid contact -- which goes right back to the contact issue.

I agree with you on his ceiling Doug, but the guy has got to do something about his approach & swing. He's just not hitting. He's starting 0-1 67% of the time and it's hard to hit well when you're behind behind in the count so often.

Sea Ray
05-06-2010, 12:33 PM
If you dive a little deeper, you will see that Stubbs has a terrible 13% LD rate, but for a guy that hits 50% of his batted balls on the ground, he should have a much higher BABIP, and it will be higher at year end.

Yes, the stat does have more meaning when you combine it with the LD% stat. Stubbs BABIP doesn't seem so bad with a 13% LD rate. But I've seen some who say the LD% is based on luck too as in "this guy's LD % is off the chart...that can't continue." I'm a believer that we do make our own luck to certain extent

Homer Bailey
05-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Yes, the stat does have more meaning when you combine it with the LD% stat. Stubbs BABIP doesn't seem so bad with a 13% LD rate. But I've seen some who say the LD% is based on luck too as in "this guy's LD % is off the chart...that can't continue." I'm a believer that we do make our own luck to certain extent

With normal luck based on league averages for each type of batted ball, I have Stubbs at .221/.304/.329/.633. This is only adding singles, and doesn't factor in the fact that his H/GB rate should be much higher than league average.

However, I don't think this is a straight case of poor luck like I did with Jay Bruce last year and early this year, as there are obviously still major contact issues here, but I don't think it would be nearly as bad as it has been if Stubbs can get a few balls to fall.

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 12:45 PM
Unfortunately, that .250 BABIP is exactly in line 12.9% line drive rate. Sure we could add 20 or 30 points to that expectation due to his speed, but he's just not making enough solid contact -- which goes right back to the contact issue.

I agree with you on his ceiling Doug, but the guy has got to do something about his approach & swing. He's just not hitting. He's starting 0-1 67% of the time and it's hard to hit well when you're behind behind in the count so often.

I agree with everything you said here. His line drive rate sucks and I hate watching him take pitches he should be swinging at. But the main issue is that with the amount of grounders he hits, he probably should have a few more singles than he does. Even if it is just 3 hits, all singles, it boosts his OPS 61 points. Something needs to change with his approach and I think it starts with getting him out of the leadoff spot. I have been saying that for years now.

Kc61
05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
I've never been a big fan of the BABIP stat. It assumes all balls in play are created equal. Some balls are long flyouts and some guys go through stretches where the ball never leaves the infield. I'd expect a line drive hitter like Votto to have a higher BABIP than a guy like Stubbs or Nix who are challenged to make "good contact".

Aren't there advanced BABIP formulas that account for different types of batted balls?

If you incorporate the type of batted balls into the formula, can't you come up with a BABIP formula that really does show good/bad luck?

dougdirt
05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Aren't there advanced BABIP formulas that account for different types of batted balls?

If you incorporate the type of batted balls into the formula, can't you come up with a BABIP formula that really does show good/bad luck?

Yes.

Brutus
05-06-2010, 01:50 PM
Aren't there advanced BABIP formulas that account for different types of batted balls?

If you incorporate the type of batted balls into the formula, can't you come up with a BABIP formula that really does show good/bad luck?

To expand on what Doug answered, yes, xBABIP is what your BABIP would be expected to be based on the rate in which hits fall for line drives, ground balls, fly balls, infield flies and bunts.

The formula I use just takes bunt hits as a static number instead of the number of bunts would be expected to go for hits, as I personally believe bunt hits are less a product of luck and more a product of the ability to put them down or run them out.

There is a more thorough formula used by Hardball Times that takes into account handedness of batter and many other factors.

But a good, quick way of estimation would be...

(.23*GB + .14*(FB-IFFB-HR) + .73*LD + BH)/(AB - HR - SO)

If you add homers back to the number of hits in the above formula, you can compare that to the actual number of hits the player has to get an idea of how many more (or less) they have than maybe they would be expected to have.

Mario-Rijo
05-06-2010, 02:48 PM
In doug's defense, he didn't want the Reds to pick him. But he tends to support most of the team's decisions, especially regarding #1 picks. He was/is a staunch supporter of Devin Mesoraco, when NOBODY was supporting him. And that is looking like a good call.

My problem with Stubbs the player is he was never developed properly. He was rushed through the system with no plan for what type of hitter he should be based on his skillset. All anyone saw was the blazing speed and someone said leadoff hitter. He could be a very good middle of the order hitter, a 25 HR guy that happens to have speed and can steal a base. You know like Brandon Phillips thinks he is.

Mes had had a few staunch defenders other than Doug, myself included. On Stubbs I have always waffled because one could never seem to figure just exactly what his issue was/is. Mes hadn't ever been given the chance to "catch up" so to speak. Stubbs was held back in an instance or 2 and still couldn't get it right. I think Stubbs is so difficult to figure out because it's possible it's a combination of things, bat control (due in large part to mechanics), bat speed etc. being the main suspects.

Ltlabner
05-06-2010, 02:56 PM
I agree with you on his ceiling Doug, but the guy has got to do something about his approach & swing. He's just not hitting. He's starting 0-1 67% of the time and it's hard to hit well when you're behind behind in the count so often.

An indictment of both the Reds development process and coaching staff.

TRF
05-06-2010, 02:57 PM
he's got Richie Sexson's body (tall, lanky) and Juan Pierre's speed. his body is confused.

If someone could just convince him the BB's will come once he starts leaving dents in the OF wall, he could be fine.

RedsManRick
05-06-2010, 03:06 PM
he's got Richie Sexson's body (tall, lanky) and Juan Pierre's speed. his body is confused.

If someone could just convince him the BB's will come once he starts leaving dents in the OF wall, he could be fine.

Hunter Pence seems to do pretty well with the Stubbs body type. So does (did) Alfonso Soriano.

Tall, lanky and fast can be a very productive combo. Stubbs just needs to get the hand-eye coordination right.

Falls City Beer
05-06-2010, 03:18 PM
Stubbs just needs to get the hand-eye coordination right.

"That pitcher just needs to find his control." Famous last words.

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 03:19 PM
he's got Richie Sexson's body (tall, lanky) and Juan Pierre's speed. his body is confused.

If someone could just convince him the BB's will come once he starts leaving dents in the OF wall, he could be fine.

Has anyone ever seen him try to bunt for a hit? :confused:

Just curious about that...

I don't think his intention is to BB. He's had that same plate approach whether he's leading off or not. However, his eye at the plate is horrendous. Like Doug stated, he takes the fastball down the heart of the plate way too many times. What I can't figure out is if he truly is looking for a curveball or he really thinks the pitch is a ball. If I had to guess, I'd say Stubbs is trigger shy early in the count. He doesn't want to swing at a bad ball, but his swing requires so much moving parts, that if he got the swing started, it would be too late and the ball would be by him.

I remember his last at bat in Houston. He hit a double down the left field line. That hit really stuck out to me because the ball was pitched about letter high and in. It was off the plate and Stubbs still swung. The way he hit it, it looked as if he knew the ball was coming there, but yet seemed surprised hit it. Seems to me that the moving parts in his swing cause his bat to be so slow that he almost has to guess to get good wood on a ball. Think about how bad a golf swing would be if you shifted your weight to your front foot prior to impact. You'd miss the ball a helluva lot more.

RedsManRick
05-06-2010, 05:20 PM
Has anyone ever seen him try to bunt for a hit? :confused:

Just curious about that...


I know that I can't buy a decent bunt with him in MLB10 :p:

forfreelin04
05-06-2010, 05:30 PM
I know that I can't buy a decent bunt with him in MLB10 :p:

Rick, those video games are just getting more and more realistic. :D

Will M
05-08-2010, 11:08 PM
Question about Stubbs: I'll admit that I haven't watched every inning of every Reds game but I don't recall ever seeing Stubbs bunt. with his speed it seems like this should be a part of his arsenal. what gives?

GAC
05-09-2010, 05:08 AM
Actually agree with Dusty on Stubbs.....

Baker puts Stubbs' struggles in perspective

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100508&content_id=9897708&notebook_id=9899076&vkey=notebook_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

CINCINNATI -- Reds center fielder Drew Stubbs snapped an 0-for-15 skid with a ninth-inning single Friday, but he was still batting only .174 with 30 strikeouts in 97 at-bats entering Saturday. Reds manager Dusty Baker was armed with printouts about former players that also had trouble hitting after their rookie seasons.
"I pulled some stats and was checking it out [because] we were talking about Stubbs," Baker said.

Baker pointed out that Mark McGwire batted .201 in 1991, his sixth big league season. There was a sheet on Ozzie Smith, who batted .211, .230 and .222 over his second through fourth seasons. Reds great Dave Concepcion batted .205 in his sophomore season and .209 his third year.

"In today's world, they would not have been patient about that," Baker said. "Mike Schmidt hit .196 in 132 games [in 1973, his second season]."

Especially because Stubbs is so fast on the bases and strong defensively, Baker is prepared to give him time to get his hitting together. Stubbs was dropped from the leadoff spot to seventh on Friday and batted there again on Saturday.

"I'm willing to give rope because I know what's there," Baker said. "I'm known to give rope. I'm criticized for giving rope. You just don't get it out of everybody at the same rate or the same pace."

Homer Bailey
05-09-2010, 12:33 PM
Thanks for posting that GAC. I actually 100% agree with Dusty's handling of the situation, which is very rare.

membengal
05-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Here is where Dusty gets a lot of credit from me, in handling stuff like Stubbs' slow start. And the other slow starts on the team.

reds44
05-10-2010, 02:49 AM
Here is where Dusty gets a lot of credit from me, in handling stuff like Stubbs' slow start. And the other slow starts on the team.
Imagine if Jerry Narron was the manager of the team.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I like Dusty. I won't lose any sleep if he's not the manager next year, but I'd have very little problem if they brought him back.

As for Stubbs, the Reds really don't have any better options at this point as bad as that sounds.

TRF
05-10-2010, 09:41 AM
As for Stubbs, the Reds really don't have any better options at this point as bad as that sounds.

You could say this every year for the last 10. In fact, not since Jr's first year as a Red have they had a CF that could hit. It's the Red's black hole.

WebScorpion
05-10-2010, 11:39 PM
Here is where Dusty gets a lot of credit from me, in handling stuff like Stubbs' slow start. And the other slow starts on the team.
Truthfully, since Dusty fixed his freaky lineup compulsion (CF=#1, SS=#2) I'm pretty happy with him as a manager. He plays the press pretty well and he's always been good at handling young players. Is it possible he's improving with age and we get his best years? :thisyear:

VR
05-11-2010, 12:18 AM
I like that approach by Dusty.

I'd also like to see the quote "We're also working with Drew to remove that horrendous loop in his swing so he can hit fewer fly balls and more line drives to maximize his wheels"