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View Full Version : Cordero is such a waste of money



ILoveWilly
05-05-2010, 10:58 PM
I'll never understand or accept this signing. Not as bad as Eric Milton or something, because he is at least decent, but the amount of money he gets paid and the amount of times he is in danger or blows a save is ridiculous. Bottom line is, if we could have that $12 mil back and spent it on at least a solid contributing bat, we would be 3-5 games above .500 right now. It's amazing how many fools in management have fallen for the closer myth in today's baseball.

Zimmers
05-05-2010, 11:24 PM
I'll never understand or accept this signing. Not as bad as Eric Milton or something, because he is at least decent, but the amount of money he gets paid and the amount of times he is in danger or blows a save is ridiculous. Bottom line is, if we could have that $12 mil back and spent it on at least a solid contributing bat, we would be 3-5 games above .500 right now. It's amazing how many fools in management have fallen for the closer myth in today's baseball.

12million to much yes! The thing is, he is much better than decent. He saved 39 out of 42 last year. He is also pitched in 60 something games with 60 something innings. This year hes 9 out of 11 and is on pace to pace for 90 games give or take with 90 innings. Hes getting overworked as is the rest of the bullpen but the starters have been very hit and miss so far. He is overpaid but there are a few teams that would be happy to have his production.

Kingspoint
05-06-2010, 12:01 AM
It's all about perspective.

Never forget how bad our Relievers were before he was signed.

His signing was the beginning of the improvement of our entire pitching staff.

Because he could take over the 9th, the talent could all be pushed down one inning.

It gave hope to starters and to the other teammates, that the REDS could win a game they led after 7 innings. Once Cordero got here, Weathers could be used in the 8th, etc.

He brought a whole new confidence to the team. Just look at how good our bullpen was last season. That wouldn't have happened without the addition of Cordero.

Redlegs_87
05-06-2010, 12:20 AM
I blame Dusty for using him way to much this season.

redsfan_12
05-06-2010, 12:36 AM
I blame Dusty for using him way to much this season.

ditto :thumbup:

Griffey012
05-06-2010, 02:15 AM
12million to much yes! The thing is, he is much better than decent. He saved 39 out of 42 last year. He is also pitched in 60 something games with 60 something innings. This year hes 9 out of 11 and is on pace to pace for 90 games give or take with 90 innings. Hes getting overworked as is the rest of the bullpen but the starters have been very hit and miss so far. He is overpaid but there are a few teams that would be happy to have his production.

:thumbup: +1

Griffey012
05-06-2010, 02:20 AM
It's all about perspective.

Never forget how bad our Relievers were before he was signed.

His signing was the beginning of the improvement of our entire pitching staff.

Because he could take over the 9th, the talent could all be pushed down one inning.

It gave hope to starters and to the other teammates, that the REDS could win a game they led after 7 innings. Once Cordero got here, Weathers could be used in the 8th, etc.

He brought a whole new confidence to the team. Just look at how good our bullpen was last season. That wouldn't have happened without the addition of Cordero.

This could not have been written better, Perfect Post.

Sure Coco isn't perfect, he puts more runners on than we would like to see, but are we all so short sighted we forget what it was like blowing 20 saves a season??? Sure Coco will blow 5 or 6 over the course of the year, but that happens to every closer not names Rivera or Papelbon. I am rather thrilled with our current bullpen compared to what is used to be, and a big part of that is Coco. He had a rough series, so be it we Won 2 of 3.

Reds42MLB
05-06-2010, 05:48 AM
Yea he is such a waste of money when he has only blown 1 save per like 10 outings in his career. Real good call there. Outside of the elite closers, and there aren't many Cordero is as consistent as they come. I would much rather have Kerry Wood, Mike Gonzalez, or Frank Francisco closing for us! :rolleyes:

Vottomatic
05-06-2010, 08:02 AM
Overpaid, yes. Overrated, no.

He's solid. Sure, we can't afford to pay that much for a closer. But then again, I agree with the perspective comment that our bullpen was in ruins before he was signed, so we did need him.

Old NDN
05-06-2010, 08:25 AM
This topic seems to come up a few times each season.... or whenever Cordero blows a save. His money is about right for premier closers. The fact that he's been on a below average team just magnifies his failures. He would be worth every penny to a winning team. He's been a luxury car on a lot full of clunkers here.

ian_madden
05-06-2010, 08:35 AM
Yeah i agree... I hate a guy that is goes out there and get people out. 39 of 42 saves last year. And he has already blown 2 saves this year. That puts him on pass to blow 12 this year. That would only put him at 78 saves on the year! Trade him, trade him now!!!!! Oh wait, no one wants him.

No really, I like him. I realize he will pitch himself into trouble, but he get out of it more times than not. If you want the best, you have to pay for the best. He is one of the best in baseball, we pay him like one of the best in baseball. He made this bullpen light years better just him sitting there. I liked the signing then, I like it now.

bounty37h
05-06-2010, 10:10 AM
I'll never understand or accept this signing. Not as bad as Eric Milton or something, because he is at least decent, but the amount of money he gets paid and the amount of times he is in danger or blows a save is ridiculous. Bottom line is, if we could have that $12 mil back and spent it on at least a solid contributing bat, we would be 3-5 games above .500 right now. It's amazing how many fools in management have fallen for the closer myth in today's baseball.

So very true, who needs closers?
Signed, Mariano Rivera

ILoveWilly
05-06-2010, 02:02 PM
So very true, who needs closers?
Signed, Mariano Rivera

Who can burn $12 mil on bit players?
Signed, Yankees unlimited payroll.

You can say the bullpen was in shambles all you want, but don't forget about the horrible Mike Stanton signing to throw into it. It seems like Reds management has burned WAYYY more money overreacting to a problem than trying to shore it up with value signings. Arthur Rhodes is one of the best damn signings of the decade, and it didn't cost $12 mil to do it. We could have definitely found a solid value closer for 1/3rd the price as what Cordero is doing.

It just continues a long trend of what Reds management thinks we need and overpays for. Oh gosh the bullpen sucks! Lets trade two everyday starters for a couple of Nationals scrap heap players, and an over the hill Yankee, along with signing Cordero for a ridiculous amount of cash. Oh we need a starter! Lets go sign a starter with major homerun/flyball problems into a home run park with a degenerative knee problem for 3 years $30 mil. Oh we need speed! Lets go burn about $14 mil in two years on the combination of Corey Patterson and Wily Taveras.

Cordero is a product of the overreaction and overpaying from Reds management that was, or still maybe is, too lazy to build from within or pick up value players. They've done better at it this season, I give them credit, but Cordero was a horrible signing. I guess the best thing you can say about the signing is, it could have been worse. Possibly still could be. Much like the team, you look at all the statistics and think the record could be much worse right now.

Then again, I look at it and think if we used that money on a decent bat, and we're 3rd worst in the NL in OBP, maybe, just maybe we would be up there in first in the division instead of 4 back early on.

1990REDS
05-06-2010, 04:10 PM
The reds actually spend money to get a big time allstar caliber closer and evryone complains they spend to much for him. Then we complain that they wont spend money to get a leftfielder, or SS, or leadoff hitter. They cant win!! Maybe cause a closer isnt as sexy of a signing as a big bat but you need a good one to compete over 162 games. Lets just remember what we had before him.

Knightro28
05-06-2010, 04:21 PM
Anything that helps stabilize the bullpen as well as the entire pitching staff is exactly what the Reds needed then and need now. Cordero is a necessity. Even if they drop out of contention, his presence helps with development of younger arms.

1990REDS
05-06-2010, 04:28 PM
Anything that helps stabilize the bullpen as well as the entire pitching staff is exactly what the Reds needed then and need now. Cordero is a necessity. Even if they drop out of contention, his presence helps with development of younger arms.

agreed

vottofan4life
05-06-2010, 04:41 PM
Coco Cordero, Drew Stubbs, and Arthur Rhodes to Phillies for Brad Lidge and Kyle Kendrick

Coco Cordero to White Sox for Bobby Jenks and Mike Teahen

This one is if we fall out:
Bronson Arroyo and Brandon Phillips to LA Dodgers for George Sherrill, Blake Dewitt, and James McDonald

defender
05-06-2010, 04:48 PM
The reds have won 9 games in the last at bat, and lead MLB with 7 one run victories. I don't think 10 mil on a LFer, would have been as valuable, so far. The Reds weakness has been pitching, and without Cordero, it would be even worse.

roby
05-06-2010, 06:00 PM
Note to REDSZONERS: Francisco Cordero is NOT the problem. We should be happy he's here.

kfm
05-06-2010, 09:58 PM
Note to REDSZONERS: Francisco Cordero is NOT the problem. We should be happy he's here.

Agree. It seems like if Cordero blows a save we get a thread like this. It seems like we have very short memories regarding how painful it was to watch the Reds bullpen blow game after game before Coco got here. His presence stabalized the bullpen. Have we forgotten the last few years of Danny blows saves Graves, or how short the bullpen was when David Weathers was the closer or having to trade for Everyday Eddie Guardado. The bullpen was a joke.

Griffey012
05-06-2010, 11:26 PM
When was the last time a team won a world series without a shutdown closer? Going all the way back to 1993 there are arguably 4 teams that won World Series without a dominant, shut-down closer. 1 of those teams had 2 HOF starting pitchers. If we do ever make it to a World Series anytime soon we had better have a guy like CoCo or better shutting down games if we want a chance to win. When the pressure mounts and the stakes get high some guys step up, some guys don't. I am completely fine with paying 12 mil for a guy we know is going to step up and do the job. Let's not whine and complain about how much we are paying the guys on this team that are doing THEIR job. 12 million for Harang is another story.

09 Yanks - Rivera
08 Phillies - Lidge
07 Red Sox - Papelbom
06 Cardinals - Wainwright
05 White Sox - Jenks
04 Red Sox - Foulke (when he was good)
03 Marlins - Braden Looper
02 Angels - Percival
01 DBacks - Byung Hyun Kim
98-00 Yankees - Rivera
97 Marlins - Robb Nen
96 Yankees - Rivera
95 Braves - Mark Wholers
94 Blue Jays - Duane Ward (a relative no name but had dominant numbers that season)
93 Blue Jays - Tom Henke

texasdave
05-06-2010, 11:40 PM
Tom Henke was a dominant closer. 40 saves that season and 311 career saves. Lifetime ERA of 2.67 with 861 strikeouts in 789 innings. I think that probably qualifies.

Griffey012
05-07-2010, 12:45 AM
Tom Henke was a dominant closer. 40 saves that season and 311 career saves. Lifetime ERA of 2.67 with 861 strikeouts in 789 innings. I think that probably qualifies.

Agreed, I just got too tired to look up his career stats. His career was ending as my baseball infatuation was beginning so I didn't recall a whole lot about him.

The Operator
05-07-2010, 03:50 AM
03 Marlins - Braden Looper

The Marlins had also traded for Ugueth Urbina by the playoff push that year, anyway. He was very dominant down the stretch and in the postseason for them.

Threads like this are a microcosm of Cincinnati reactions to things. If The Reds or Bengals falter, it's never the crappy players that get blamed. With The Reds it was always Adam Dunn, not the guys hitting around him. Or the guys giving up 8 runs in the first place. With The Bengals it's always Carson Palmer, not the guys acting as turnstiles letting entire defensive lines get to him. I don't understand it.

bounty37h
05-07-2010, 10:27 AM
[QUOTE=ILoveWilly;2074940]Who can burn $12 mil on bit players?
Signed, Yankees unlimited payroll.
P.S., by the way, we have money to burn like that cause we had already invested in our team, making them winners, making more fans come out and support us, making us more money to buy even more players, making us....


Point is, yes, we spent a lot of money on what at that time was our biggest problem, and that problem has been taken care of. Can we afford it, prob not, but can we affrod not to either? I agree with what a steal Rhodes has been, but thats whay its called steal, not going to just go out and get that every day.

roby
05-07-2010, 04:06 PM
[QUOTE=ILoveWilly;2074940]Who can burn $12 mil on bit players?
Signed, Yankees unlimited payroll.
P.S., by the way, we have money to burn like that cause we had already invested in our team, making them winners, making more fans come out and support us, making us more money to buy even more players, making us....


Point is, yes, we spent a lot of money on what at that time was our biggest problem, and that problem has been taken care of. Can we afford it, prob not, but can we affrod not to either? I agree with what a steal Rhodes has been, but thats whay its called steal, not going to just go out and get that every day.

true. If the Reds are going to put a winner on the field, they are going to have to spend some money. That's just the way it is. After they staert winning, it may be a little easier to get star players to want to come here...but right now, it is going to cost some money. I would hate to do without Cordero. I also hate to do without that power-hitting left fielder that should have been signed in the off-season.

Griffey012
05-07-2010, 04:29 PM
[QUOTE=bounty37h;2075378]

true. If the Reds are going to put a winner on the field, they are going to have to spend some money. That's just the way it is. After they staert winning, it may be a little easier to get star players to want to come here...but right now, it is going to cost some money. I would hate to do without Cordero. I also hate to do without that power-hitting left fielder that should have been signed in the off-season.

There was no power hitting left fielder to sign in the off-season. Not that we would have signed one if their were, but there were slim pickings.

1990REDS
05-07-2010, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=roby;2075520]

There was no power hitting left fielder to sign in the off-season. Not that we would have signed one if their were, but there were slim pickings.

What!!!! I thought power hitting left fielders who are in the price range for small market teams grow on trees.;)

bounty37h
05-10-2010, 11:17 AM
[QUOTE=roby;2075520]

There was no power hitting left fielder to sign in the off-season. Not that we would have signed one if their were, but there were slim pickings.

For the record, that wasnt my post you quoted...

roby
05-10-2010, 11:40 AM
[QUOTE=Griffey012;2075535]

For the record, that wasnt my post you quoted...

For the record, they needed a LF two years ago as well. There were several possibilities then. Also, Vlad G wouldn't have been a bad pick-up this year. There are also several trade possibilities. We can make excuses forever. Or we can go out and build a winner.

bounty37h
05-10-2010, 03:34 PM
Can Vlad even walk out to left anymore, let alone run or do anything when he gets there?

Griffey012
05-10-2010, 03:55 PM
[QUOTE=Griffey012;2075535]

For the record, that wasnt my post you quoted...

I know, the whole quoting on this thread it out of whack.

Griffey012
05-10-2010, 03:58 PM
For the record, they needed a LF two years ago as well. There were several possibilities then. Also, Vlad G wouldn't have been a bad pick-up this year. There are also several trade possibilities. We can make excuses forever. Or we can go out and build a winner.

We are trying to "build" a winner. You don't build one overnight. Overnight you try and create one instantly by buying overpriced items that don't solve a long term solution, they only put off the inevitable.

Name me some real trade possibilities. Simply listing Bailey, Frazier, and yadada for Carlos Quintin is not a trade possibility outside of MLB 2K10 the show. GM's are not looking to trade offense right now, many many teams are look to acquire it though.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 10:16 PM
Anyone else want to defend this waste of space? Wow, he's pathetic. But hey, I mean he's only being paid like around 20% of our salary to not do his job, which is protecting a lead in all of ONE inning. :angry:

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 10:20 PM
Woohoo we survive after he gives up 3 runs, after blowing the Braves game. Maybe we should sign him to an extension. The guys is Danny Graves II, constantly in trouble, as Marty correctly pointed out. Pay half his salary and unload him on some team for some Single A 1 star prospect, and do us all a favor.

Seņor Rojo
05-22-2010, 10:25 PM
Can Vlad even walk out to left anymore, let alone run or do anything when he gets there?

He could probably still hit a ball that bounces off the ground, but yes, his fielding is suspect.

kfm
05-22-2010, 10:32 PM
Woohoo we survive after he gives up 3 runs, after blowing the Braves game. Maybe we should sign him to an extension. The guys is Danny Graves II, constantly in trouble, as Marty correctly pointed out. Pay half his salary and unload him on some team for some Single A 1 star prospect, and do us all a favor.

Who closes once you unload him and get your one star prospect?

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:36 PM
I'll defend him.

He currently is 2nd in the National League in Saves behind Washington's Capps.

That's what he gets paid to do.

That's what he's doing.

kfm
05-22-2010, 10:37 PM
I'll defend him.

He currently is 2nd in the National League in Saves behind Washington's Capps.

That's what he gets paid to do.

That's what he's doing.

Be careful bringing facts into an argument, some people dont like that.

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 10:41 PM
I know the ERA looks bad now a 4.09. But, it's really only been the last week where he's looked bad. I say give him a couple of days off. He's far from perfect, but I wouldn't call him Danny Graves, hell his ERA was only 3.00 about a week ago.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 10:42 PM
Hes being pounded into the ground. Absolutely pounded.

NorrisHopper30
05-22-2010, 10:44 PM
Despite the horrendous outing he still hangs out. I still think Cordero will turn it around.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:45 PM
Be careful bringing facts into an argument, some people dont like that.

Keep it simple.

A closer gets paid to do only one thing.....close games.

Cordero is closing games.

He's been overused, and that's not his problem.

With the amount of appearances he's had heaped upon his shoulders, he's doing an admirable job.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 10:47 PM
Be careful bringing facts into an argument, some people dont like that.

Yeah lets look at facts. Every other closer at the top of both leagues besides a Rivera type also has anywhere from a 4th to a half at MOST of his payday.

Capps salary? 3.5 mil

Heath Bell in 3rd NL with 11 saves? 4 mil

Matt Lindstrom in 4th with 10 saves? 1.625 mil

Ryan Franklin tied for 4th with 10? 3.05 mil


Cordero salary? 12.125 mil
Total salary of the other 4 in the top 5? 12.175 mil


Yeah, enjoy those facts. One completely idiotic contract no matter HOW you cut it.

kfm
05-22-2010, 10:49 PM
Yeah lets look at facts. Every other closer at the top of both leagues besides a Rivera type also has anywhere from a 4th to a half at MOST of his payday.

Capps salary? 3.5 mil

Heath Bell in 3rd NL with 11 saves? 4 mil

Matt Lindstrom in 4th with 10 saves? 1.625 mil

Ryan Franklin tied for 4th with 10? 3.05 mil


Cordero salary? 12.125 mil
Total salary of the other 4 in the top 5? 12.175 mil


Yeah, enjoy those facts. One completely idiotic contract no matter HOW you cut it.

I'll ask again, who closes for the Reds once you trade him for your single A one star prospect.

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 10:50 PM
Hes being pounded into the ground. Absolutely pounded.

In all of 3 games. Tonight, the last game in Atlanta (and that was only one batter) and the game against St. Louis.

Everyone needs to calm down a little. Other then those 3 games he's been pretty solid all year. He's pitched in an absolute ton of games so far.

I know visions of Graves are hard to get out of your mind, but he's far from Graves.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 10:51 PM
I'll ask again, who closes for the Reds once you trade him for your single A one star prospect.

I don't care who does. Owings? Rhodes? Either one can do just as good a crappy job as Cordero.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:52 PM
It's not about the salary.

The REDS have a legitimate shot to win their Division. They need and have a premier closer . You can't put a dollar figure on that.

kfm
05-22-2010, 10:53 PM
I don't care who does. Owings? Rhodes? Either one can do just as good a crappy job as Cordero.

Owings as a closer, really. I will pretend like that is a good idea, who takes Cordero's roster spot in the bullpen?

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:54 PM
Dusty had no business using him today. Cordero needs some rest. He'd already pitched 3 times in the last 7 days, so now that's 4 times in 8 days. He's killing the guy.

(7 times in the last 15 days; 15 times in the last 29 days). Dusty is seriously messing Cordero up by using him so much. He's on pace to appear in over 80 games. He'll be on the DL before August.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:55 PM
Dusty needs to come up with another guy he can use as a "Closer".

Del Rosario just took over the closer's role in Indy a couple of days ago. He seems to have the makeup to be a closer. We'll see.

xavr1
05-22-2010, 10:57 PM
It's not about the salary.

The REDS have a legitimate shot to win their Division. They need and have a premier closer . You can't put a dollar figure on that.

Agreed. A guy has a couple bad outings and his whole career is forgotten. The local media isnt helping the situation either.

BurgervilleBuck
05-22-2010, 10:57 PM
With the amount of appearances he's had heaped upon his shoulders, he's doing an admirable job.
It's frustrating, though, to see him struggle. Is it time for a second closer?

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 10:58 PM
It's not about the salary.

The REDS have a legitimate shot to win their Division. They need and have a premier closer . You can't put a dollar figure on that.

And we don't have one. If he's so premier why is he in trouble EVERY FREAKING GAME? Good closers don't give up grand slams to lose games. Good closers don't get in danger with a huge lead in the 9th against one of the worst teams in baseball. Period.

Oh and for those saying the Graves comparison is off, his WHIP right now (1.59) is higher than any year of Graves as closer except his last as a Red. And for $12 mil, yeah it does make a difference. You better be a damn good pitcher to get paid that much and the guy is nothing but disappointing.

If you think it takes something special to be a closer, why is it our trash released players like Ryan Franklin can go on to be good closers, and we've done perfectly fine in the past with guys like Weathers and Jones? Rhodes could be doing the same exactly freaking thing Cordero is doing right now, with absolutely no problem. And with that $12 mil, I'm sure we could have found PLENTY of solid pen relievers to take his place. Horrible signing, and that's a FACT.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 10:58 PM
It's frustrating, though, to see him struggle. Is it time for a second closer?

Definitely.

A guy who can close every 4th or 5th Save Opportunity.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:01 PM
The bullpen needs to step up. So many of them are struggling right now or are so up and down, you just don't know what you are going to get from them. Outside of Arthur Rhodes, and CoCo when he is not over used, who do you really have confidence in?

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:04 PM
And we don't have one. If he's so premier why is he in trouble EVERY FREAKING GAME? Good closers don't give up grand slams to lose games.

He didn't give up a Grand Slam. He came in and faced one batter and got a fly ball out, but Laynce Nix Canseco'd the ball over the fence.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:05 PM
1990 Saves

Randy Myers 31
Rob Dibble 11
Rick Mahler 4
Tim Layana 2
Norm Charlton 2

Myers Dibble and Charlton all pitched a lot of innings that year though.

Charlton did start 16 games though so that explains why he threw so many.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:05 PM
And we don't have one. If he's so premier why is he in trouble EVERY FREAKING GAME? Good closers don't give up grand slams to lose games. Good closers don't get in danger with a huge lead in the 9th against one of the worst teams in baseball. Period.

Oh and for those saying the Graves comparison is off, his WHIP right now (1.59) is higher than any year of Graves as closer except his last as a Red. And for $12 mil, yeah it does make a difference. You better be a damn good pitcher to get paid that much and the guy is nothing but disappointing.

If you think it takes something special to be a closer, why is it our trash released players like Ryan Franklin can go on to be good closers, and we've done perfectly fine in the past with guys like Weathers and Jones? Rhodes could be doing the same exactly freaking thing Cordero is doing right now, with absolutely no problem. And with that $12 mil, I'm sure we could have found PLENTY of solid pen relievers to take his place. Horrible signing, and that's a FACT.
It is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but it is far from a fact. As far as closers not giving up grand slams, are you aware that Mariano Rivera gave up a grand slam to blow a save earlier this week? Still waiting to hear who takes Cordero's roster spot?

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:06 PM
And for fun, more facts. I looked at all the played in the NL with 2 or more saves and that list was 20 players.

Guess where Cordero was in WHIP? 15th of 20, only ahead of Dotel, Qualls, Hoffman, Madson, and Morales.

Yup, I hate those facts.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:08 PM
You know the REDS are in First Place right now, don't you, and that they won today, and that Cordero got the last 3 outs of the game?

The job got done.

Don't worry about the semantics.

The most important thing is that after blowing a 10-1 lead and a 6-run 9th inning lead, they came back and won the next two games. That's extremely difficult to do. You must have seen how worried Dusty was after the loss, that the club might be effected deeply and not respond very well.

Well, they responded in a positive manner, and got themselves leads large enough each day allowing them to hold on and win both games.

Off to the next City for some more baseball (after tomorrow).

Next?

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:08 PM
And for fun, more facts. I looked at all the played in the NL with 2 or more saves and that list was 20 players.

Guess where Cordero was in WHIP? 15th of 20, only ahead of Dotel, Qualls, Hoffman, Madson, and Morales.

Yup, I hate those facts.

So your argument is that whip is the best stat to judge a closers effectiveness. And here I foolishly thought it was saves. I feel enlightened.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:09 PM
And for fun, more facts. I looked at all the played in the NL with 2 or more saves and that list was 20 players.

Guess where Cordero was in WHIP? 15th of 20, only ahead of Dotel, Qualls, Hoffman, Madson, and Morales.

Yup, I hate those facts.

Nobody in their right mind would want any of those guys to close games instead of Cordero.

But, you're trying to compare Cordero to them.

Where are their saves?

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:10 PM
C'mon, Willy.

Enjoy the victory.

The REDS are in First Place.

They've rebounded from that disaster in Atlanta.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:11 PM
So your argument is that whip is the best stat to judge a closers effectiveness. And here I foolishly thought it was saves. I feel enlightened.

Id say Whip is going to tell you more about a pitcher than the Save stat for sure.

Corderos ERA being above 4 is a problem considering he comes in with fresh innings a lot. That means every other inning hes allowing a run on average. Not something Id considering great.

Hes getting pounded into the ground by Dusty though and that is a problem that wont be fixed until we start winning games by 7 runs apparently since hes still bringing him in non save situations.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:11 PM
The Pitcher to worry about on this team is Harang.

Fortunately, we get Bailey tomorrow.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:12 PM
It is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, but it is far from a fact. As far as closers not giving up grand slams, are you aware that Mariano Rivera gave up a grand slam to blow a save earlier this week? Still waiting to hear who takes Cordero's roster spot?

Rivera = 0.83 WHIP. And I already stated who could take Cordero's job as closer and do just as well, if not better if you actually read. Rhodes would do perfectly fine in the position and could have last year as well, just like the dozens of closers all around the league than don't have to get paid $12 mil to do it, just like Weathers and Jones did in the past for us.

I love the whole "omg who would take his place!" argument. It's so hilarious. Just because you have something you think you need doesn't mean you walk in and buy it, and that's the idiotic nature of the Reds CONSTANTLY. OMG we need speed! Well lets give up $15 million overall for Taveras and Patterson! OMG we need a starter! Lets give up $30 mil for Eric Milton! OMG we need relievers! Lets trade two everyday starters for a couple of mediocre ones and sign another washed up one (Stanton) to a big contract! Cordero is the natural progression of that idiocy.

Your argument is the equivalent of running out of toilet paper with the store closed and someone next door offers you a single ply 4 pack for $100 and you pay for it. OMG where can you get toilet paper tho? Give me a break.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Hes getting pounded into the ground by Dusty though and that is a problem that wont be fixed until we start winning games by 7 runs apparently since hes still bringing him in non save situations.

Everybody in baseball knows Dusty's doing this to Cordero right now, yet he keeps doing it. Talk about Managing scared. Dusty seems to have panicked more than anyone since the Atlanta fiasco.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:13 PM
Id say Whip is going to tell you more about a pitcher than the Save stat for sure.

Corderos ERA being above 4 is a problem considering he comes in with fresh innings a lot. That means every other inning hes allowing a run on average. Not something Id considering great.

Hes getting pounded into the ground by Dusty though and that is a problem that wont be fixed until we start winning games by 7 runs apparently since hes still bringing him in non save situations.

Whip will tell you how dominant a pitcher may be, but I will take save percentage over whip for a closer. Isn't that what he is being paid to do, to get the last three outs. If Trevor Hoffman has a better whip than Cordero, I really question if that is the best way to judge a closer. BTW, whip applies in save and non save situations like tonight.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:15 PM
Whip will tell you how dominant a pitcher may be, but I will take save percentage over whip for a closer. Isn't that what he is being paid to do, to get the last three outs. If Trevor Hoffman has a better whip than Cordero, I really question if that is the best way to judge a closer. BTW, whip applies in save and non save situations like tonight.

I dont really care so much about the Save considering saving a game with 3 run lead is probably the easiest thing in baseball.

and Cordero doesnt have a higher Whip than Hoffman this year.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:17 PM
Rivera = 0.83 WHIP. And I already stated who could take Cordero's job as closer and do just as well, if not better if you actually read. Rhodes would do perfectly fine in the position and could have last year as well, just like the dozens of closers all around the league than don't have to get paid $12 mil to do it, just like Weathers and Jones did in the past for us.

I love the whole "omg who would take his place!" argument. It's so hilarious. Just because you have something you think you need doesn't mean you walk in and buy it, and that's the idiotic nature of the Reds CONSTANTLY. OMG we need speed! Well lets give up $15 million overall for Taveras and Patterson! OMG we need a starter! Lets give up $30 mil for Eric Milton! OMG we need relievers! Lets trade two everyday starters for a couple of mediocre ones and sign another washed up one (Stanton) to a big contract! Cordero is the natural progression of that idiocy.

Your argument is the equivalent of running out of toilet paper with the store closed and someone next door offers you a single ply 4 pack for $100 and you pay for it. OMG where can you get toilet paper tho? Give me a break.

I said who takes his roster spot in the bullpen once you get rid of him. Perhaps you should read. Once you lose Cordero, I get that either Rhodes or Owings (really) becomes the closer, but unless you think they should play with 24 players you are going to have to add someone to the roster, and I will ask you again who are you going to add.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:17 PM
I dont really care so much about the Save considering saving a game with 3 run lead is probably the easiest thing in baseball.

You don't care because we have someone who can do it. But, when we didn't have anyone who could do it, it became important. It's extremely difficult to do. That's why Cordero was paid so much money for pitching just 1/3rd of the innings that a Starter pitches.

There isn't anyone on this team that could close a higher percentage as Cordero while pitching in as many games as Dusty's had him pitch this season.

If there's a problem, it's Dusty's use of him. It's not Cordero. Cordero's being asked to be superhuman right now, and that's just not realistic by Baker. Walt's going to have to talk to him.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:18 PM
I dont really care so much about the Save considering saving a game with 3 run lead is probably the easiest thing in baseball.

and Cordero doesnt have a higher Whip than Hoffman this year.

That will teach me to rely on stats posted by others. So you don't care about saves for a closer?

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 11:18 PM
Rivera = 0.83 WHIP. And I already stated who could take Cordero's job as closer and do just as well, if not better if you actually read. Rhodes would do perfectly fine in the position and could have last year as well, just like the dozens of closers all around the league than don't have to get paid $12 mil to do it, just like Weathers and Jones did in the past for us.

I love the whole "omg who would take his place!" argument. It's so hilarious. Just because you have something you think you need doesn't mean you walk in and buy it, and that's the idiotic nature of the Reds CONSTANTLY. OMG we need speed! Well lets give up $15 million overall for Taveras and Patterson! OMG we need a starter! Lets give up $30 mil for Eric Milton! OMG we need relievers! Lets trade two everyday starters for a couple of mediocre ones and sign another washed up one (Stanton) to a big contract! Cordero is the natural progression of that idiocy.

Your argument is the equivalent of running out of toilet paper with the store closed and someone next door offers you a single ply 4 pack for $100 and you pay for it. OMG where can you get toilet paper tho? Give me a break.

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't overpaid. The problem is you're pretty much stuck with that contract. Whose going to take on 12 million for a closer. I'd argue that money would be better spent elsewhere too. However, that doesn't mean I'm writing off Cordero after a bad 10 days. Hell, his era was 2.77 after a couple of days in May. He's been overworked, and he's overpaid but I'm not writing him off as a good closer.

One player who could really help the Reds if he could get his strength back is Jared Burton. Him coming up and throwing like he did in 08 would be huge.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:20 PM
I don't think anyone is saying he isn't overpaid. The problem is you're pretty much stuck with that contract. Whose going to take on 12 million for a closer. I'd argue that money would be better spent elsewhere too. However, that doesn't mean I'm writing off Cordero after a bad 10 days. Hell, his era was 2.77 after a couple of days in May. He's been overworked, and he's overpaid but I'm not writing him off as a good closer.

One player who could really help the Reds if he could get his strength back is Jared Burton. Him coming up and throwing like he did in 08 would be huge.

:thumbup:

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:20 PM
I said who takes his roster spot in the bullpen once you get rid of him. Perhaps you should read. Once you lose Cordero, I get that either Rhodes or Owings (really) becomes the closer, but unless you think they should play with 24 players you are going to have to add someone to the roster, and I will ask you again who are you going to add.

How about Jeff Shaw? Or sign Brantley out of the booth? Who gives a flying crap, if we had that $12 million to use??? Either way, we would give plenty more production out of what we could have used that $12 mil on instead of Cordero, that's for sure.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:21 PM
You don't care because we have someone who can do it. But, when we didn't have anyone who could do it, it became important. It's extremely difficult to do. That's why Cordero was paid so much money for pitching just 1/3rd of the innings that a Starter pitches.

There isn't anyone on this team that could close a higher percentage as Cordero while pitching in as many games as Dusty's had him pitch this season.

If there's a problem, it's Dusty's use of him. It's not Cordero. Cordero's being asked to be superhuman right now, and that's just not realistic by Baker. Walt's going to have to talk to him.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Funniest thing I've heard all day.

Mutaman
05-22-2010, 11:22 PM
Trevor Hoffman 7.5 mil.

Jonathan Papelbon 9.3 mil.

Joe Nathan 12 mil.

Brian Fuentes 9 mil.

Billy Wagner 6.7 mil.

Francisco Rodriguez 12 mil

Brad Liege 12 mil

Carlos Zambrano 18 mil.

Wow, Co Co looks like a bargain.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:22 PM
That will teach me to rely on stats posted by others. So you don't care about saves for a closer?

I care about saves for a closer like I care about wins for a pitcher. Its a quick judgement tool but until a Win can tell me how good a pitcher is or a Save can tell me how good a reliever is I wont care that much.

There are more way to judge a pitcher. You can win a game by giving up a bunch pf runs, you can save a game by letting the other team score 2 in the 9th.

They are crude stats that dont tell us a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:22 PM
How about Jeff Shaw? Or sign Brantley out of the booth? Who gives a flying crap, if we had that $12 million to use??? Either way, we would give plenty more production out of what we could have used that $12 mil on instead of Cordero, that's for sure.

So your solution to the already struggling bullpen is to trade your closer for a single a prospect, make Micah Owings the closer and sign Jeff Brantey or Jeff Shaw. Your right I am wrong, I can't wait until the Reds make you the GM.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:23 PM
I dont care about Corderos stuggles. Hes being pounded into the ground and thats gotta stop. The guy needs more rest because hes pitching in every other game it seems. You gotta get him some days off even if it means you let someone else get a save.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:25 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Funniest thing I've heard all day.

You're obviously under 30 years of age. You haven't been around long enough to appreciate how difficult it is.

kfm
05-22-2010, 11:25 PM
I care about saves for a closer like I care about wins for a pitcher. Its a quick judgement tool but until a Win can tell me how good a pitcher is or a Save can tell me how good a reliever is I wont care that much.

There are more way to judge a pitcher. You can win a game by giving up a bunch pf runs, you can save a game by letting the other team score 2 in the 9th.

They are crude stats that dont tell us a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.

I am going to completely disagree with you on this one. I am all in your corner on wins for a starter. I could not agree more. But a save is when your team has already put you in the position to get that stat. You have to get three outs without giving up the lead. I don't care how a guy does it , just that he gets it done.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:26 PM
I dont care about Corderos stuggles. Hes being pounded into the ground and thats gotta stop. The guy needs more rest because hes pitching in every other game it seems. You gotta get him some days off even if it means you let someone else get a save.

That's where I'm at when it comes to Cordero. If someone doesn't like him now, they'll hate him later.

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 11:27 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Funniest thing I've heard all day.

If CoCo is this terrible I'm just wondering how you're planning on trading him and some team taking his contract?

Or are you talking about eating the contract? If you are that is one of the funniest things I've heard all day.

Also, Rhodes has been key for us all year in the pen in the 7th and 8th innings. Once he goes to the 9th that weakens us in those innings. But, I'm sure Fisher, Owings and Herrera would do just as good. Remember it's easy pitching in the bullpen.

You're a funny guy. Not funny haha. But funny.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:27 PM
I dont care about Corderos stuggles. Hes being pounded into the ground and thats gotta stop. The guy needs more rest because hes pitching in every other game it seems. You gotta get him some days off even if it means you let someone else get a save.

Al Leiter was screaming this two weeks ago.

Mutaman
05-22-2010, 11:29 PM
Al Leiter was screaming this two weeks ago.

Hey buddy, a real Reds fan never speaks the name "Al Leiter".

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:32 PM
You're obviously under 30 years of age. You haven't been around long enough to appreciate how difficult it is.

OK if it's so friggin difficult, why does most of the league get, and usually use effectively a FAILED starter off the scrap heap to be a closer? Or a middle reliever that gets pushed into the role and does well? If it's sooo difficult and so important, how come teams aren't prepping young prospects to be the next closer in waiting instead of making them starts? I mean is it was SOOO important, why isn't Chapman down in Louisville closing games, or why wasn't Bailey or Leake?

I mean its such a super difficult job, you would think all these teams would be drafting closers in the first round of drafts.

More fun facts for you:

From 1991 through 2005, the Atlanta Braves won 14 consecutive division titles (not including the strike year of 1994). They accomplished this despite using 10 different relievers as the team's primary closer, including a 26-year-old rookie who had once been waived (Greg McMichael), another rookie who had been released and played independent ball (Kerry Lightenberg), an 18th-round draft pick (John Rocker) and a broken-down starter (John Smoltz).

1991: Juan Berenguer (17 saves, 2.24 ERA)
1992: Alejandro Pena (15 saves, 4.07 ERA)
1993: Mike Stanton (27 saves, 4.67 ERA) and Greg McMichael (19 saves, 2.06 ERA)
1994: Greg McMichael (19 saves, 3.84 ERA)
1995: Mark Wohlers (25 saves, 2.09 ERA
1996: Mark Wohlers (39 saves, 3.03 ERA)
1997: Mark Wohlers (33 saves, 3.50 ERA)
1998: Kerry Lightenberg (30 saves, 2.71 ERA)
1999: John Rocker (38 saves, 2.49 ERA)
2000: John Rocker (24 saves, 2.89 ERA)
2001: John Rocker (19 saves, 3.09 ERA) and John Smoltz (10 saves, 3.36 ERA)
2002: John Smoltz (55 saves, 3.25 ERA)
2003: John Smoltz (45 saves, 1.12 ERA)
2004: John Smoltz (44 saves, 2.76 ERA)
2005: Chris Reitsma (15 saves, 3.93 ERA) and Kyle Farnsworth (10 saves, 1.98 ERA)

Tough job, lemme tell you .Definitely worth $12 million, no way we could find someone close to comparable to Cordero for that much.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:34 PM
I am going to completely disagree with you on this one. I am all in your corner on wins for a starter. I could not agree more. But a save is when your team has already put you in the position to get that stat. You have to get three outs without giving up the lead. I don't care how a guy does it , just that he gets it done.

My thing is if a guy gives up 2 runs every outing he could easily save a 3 run lead. Would I trust that same guy to save a 1 run game? No way. The save is a flawed stat. Its just for relievers to use in arbitration or when negotiating a new contract.

A guy could go 5 for 6 in 1 run games in save opps, another guy could go 6 for 6 in 3 run chances and they are not even close to being equal in my mind especially if the 6 for 6 guy is giving up 2 runs in every single one of those game.s

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:34 PM
Just like Dusty starting Laynce Nix the last two games so Laynce could go out there and prove himself to his teammates after the guffaw in Atlanta (and prove it big time Nix did), Dusty put Cordero in for probably the same reason....so he could get Atlanta out of his mind and prove to his teammates that he can get the job done when called upon to do so.

A Major Kudos To Dusty Baker the last two games for playing Nix and Cordero!!!

Now, sit Cordero down and only use him twice a week for the next two weeks. Let someone else close games (of course, he was trying to do that with Lincoln in Atlanta and it backfired).

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:34 PM
Hey buddy, a real Reds fan never speaks the name "Al Leiter".

Good point, Mutaman.


5-0 Mets.

Knew the game was over before it started.

We had our worst pitcher and they had their best.

Griffey012
05-22-2010, 11:35 PM
So if Cordero goes and Rhodes becomes closer, who takes Rhodes set up role? Masset, Lincoln, Owings, Herrera? We have no solid options to do that right now. So then we don't even get Rhodes into the save situations and instantly our bullpen gets considerably worse.

Willy, you should go take a read at the "Jay Bruce's offense is a joke" thread, it is a pretty similar thread in the sense of deeming a player worthless because of a rough stretch.

And if we dump Cordero's 12 mil this season what do we do with it? Nothing, you don't sign 12 million worth of players mid season.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:36 PM
So if Cordero goes and Rhodes becomes closer, who takes Rhodes set up role? Masset, Lincoln, Owings, Herrera? We have no solid options to do that right now. So then we don't even get Rhodes into the save situations and instantly our bullpen gets considerably worse.

Willy, you should go take a read at the "Jay Bruce's offense is a joke" thread, it is a pretty similar thread in the sense of deeming a player worthless because of a rough stretch.

And if we dump Cordero's 12 mil this season what do we do with it? Nothing, you don't sign 12 million worth of players mid season.

And, we become the Mariners of the mid-90's....great starters, but can't win a thing because of a lousy bullpen.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:37 PM
So if Cordero goes and Rhodes becomes closer, who takes Rhodes set up role? Masset, Lincoln, Owings, Herrera? We have no solid options to do that right now. So then we don't even get Rhodes into the save situations and instantly our bullpen gets considerably worse.

Willy, you should go take a read at the "Jay Bruce's offense is a joke" thread, it is a pretty similar thread in the sense of deeming a player worthless because of a rough stretch.

And if we dump Cordero's 12 mil this season what do we do with it? Nothing, you don't sign 12 million worth of players mid season.

Just out of curiosity, how many REDS' games has he attended in Cincinnati this year? I'm just wondering how much of his money has gone to pay for Cordero. If the answer is none, then he needs to quit his twitchin'.

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 11:38 PM
OK if it's so friggin difficult, why does most of the league get, and usually use effectively a FAILED starter off the scrap heap to be a closer? Or a middle reliever that gets pushed into the role and does well? If it's sooo difficult and so important, how come teams aren't prepping young prospects to be the next closer in waiting instead of making them starts? I mean is it was SOOO important, why isn't Chapman down in Louisville closing games, or why wasn't Bailey or Leake?

I mean its such a super difficult job, you would think all these teams would be drafting closers in the first round of drafts.

More fun facts for you:

From 1991 through 2005, the Atlanta Braves won 14 consecutive division titles (not including the strike year of 1994). They accomplished this despite using 10 different relievers as the team's primary closer, including a 26-year-old rookie who had once been waived (Greg McMichael), another rookie who had been released and played independent ball (Kerry Lightenberg), an 18th-round draft pick (John Rocker) and a broken-down starter (John Smoltz).

1991: Juan Berenguer (17 saves, 2.24 ERA)
1992: Alejandro Pena (15 saves, 4.07 ERA)
1993: Mike Stanton (27 saves, 4.67 ERA) and Greg McMichael (19 saves, 2.06 ERA)
1994: Greg McMichael (19 saves, 3.84 ERA)
1995: Mark Wohlers (25 saves, 2.09 ERA
1996: Mark Wohlers (39 saves, 3.03 ERA)
1997: Mark Wohlers (33 saves, 3.50 ERA)
1998: Kerry Lightenberg (30 saves, 2.71 ERA)
1999: John Rocker (38 saves, 2.49 ERA)
2000: John Rocker (24 saves, 2.89 ERA)
2001: John Rocker (19 saves, 3.09 ERA) and John Smoltz (10 saves, 3.36 ERA)
2002: John Smoltz (55 saves, 3.25 ERA)
2003: John Smoltz (45 saves, 1.12 ERA)
2004: John Smoltz (44 saves, 2.76 ERA)
2005: Chris Reitsma (15 saves, 3.93 ERA) and Kyle Farnsworth (10 saves, 1.98 ERA)

Tough job, lemme tell you .Definitely worth $12 million, no way we could find someone close to comparable to Cordero for that much.

I'm still waiting for how you're dealing Cordero and his contract and replacing Rhodes as the 7th inning guy.

Griffey012
05-22-2010, 11:38 PM
My thing is if a guy gives up 2 runs every outing he could easily save a 3 run lead. Would I trust that same guy to save a 1 run game? No way. The save is a flawed stat. Its just for relievers to use in arbitration or when negotiating a new contract.

A guy could go 5 for 6 in 1 run games in save opps, another guy could go 6 for 6 in 3 run chances and they are not even close to being equal in my mind especially if the 6 for 6 guy is giving up 2 runs in every single one of those game.s

But over the course of a season, the law of averages is gonna take over and most closers are going to face a similar amount of 1,2, and 3 run games I am guessing. It's just like any other stat in baseball... Saves, Save %, WHIP, ERA, etc. all need to be taken into consideration with other surrounding stats and be further examined.

GIDP
05-22-2010, 11:40 PM
A guy with a lower ERA and Whip is goin to save more games if they are given the same chances as any other reliever. Basing how good a guy is off saves isnt a very good predictor thats all I'm saying.

Griffey012
05-22-2010, 11:41 PM
And, we become the Mariners of the mid-90's....great starters, but can't win a thing because of a lousy bullpen.

Don't remind me...I spent a lot of time in the mid 90's as a youth following that team and being disappointed by the bullpen.

It also brings us back to the 06 and 07 Reds who blew 20-30 saves a season with a lousy bullpen.

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:42 PM
If we had the Braves' Pitching Coach for all those years, then that would be fine. But, we don't and haven't. We had Don Gullett and Dick Pole. Now we have a very good Pitching Coach who's young and may help put us into contention every year.

A closer who saves 85% of his team's games is an above average closer. We have that in Cordero. Cordero's talent and resume cannot be questioned. Only his use by Baker right now, and that has nothing to do with Cordero.

I'm done.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm still waiting for how you're dealing Cordero and his contract and replacing Rhodes as the 7th inning guy.

Well I mean if you're so right dude, we should have no problem whatsoever for trading Cordero for Capps for the Nationals and Strasburg, along with getting Dunn back. I mean he's so awesome and all we should be able to get that deal done and probably get them to send us $6 mil with that package too. So, should be no problem whatsoever as long as every other team realizes how difficult it is to close and how valuable Cordero is right?

Kingspoint
05-22-2010, 11:45 PM
Well I mean if you're so right dude, we should have no problem whatsoever for trading Cordero for Capps for the Nationals and Strasburg, along with getting Dunn back. I mean he's so awesome and all we should be able to get that deal done and probably get them to send us $6 mil with that package too. So, should be no problem whatsoever as long as every other team realizes how difficult it is to close and how valuable Cordero is right?

You brought it up.

You need to come up with the correct trade scenario that would work.

ILoveWilly
05-22-2010, 11:50 PM
You brought it up.

You need to come up with the correct trade scenario that would work.

You're the one saying he's awesome, so why do I need to come up with a scenario? Obviously you think he's good at what he does and isn't overpaid, so why would there be a problem trading him? Can't have it both ways.

NeilHamburger
05-22-2010, 11:51 PM
Well I mean if you're so right dude, we should have no problem whatsoever for trading Cordero for Capps for the Nationals and Strasburg, along with getting Dunn back. I mean he's so awesome and all we should be able to get that deal done and probably get them to send us $6 mil with that package too. So, should be no problem whatsoever as long as every other team realizes how difficult it is to close and how valuable Cordero is right?

I had just said earlier that he was OVERPAID. Can you read? Go back a page or so and read the brillance of my post. I like how you're not answering my question.

Here, I'll save you time. Here was my post:

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't overpaid. The problem is you're pretty much stuck with that contract. Whose going to take on 12 million for a closer. I'd argue that money would be better spent elsewhere too. However, that doesn't mean I'm writing off Cordero after a bad 10 days. Hell, his era was 2.77 after a couple of days in May. He's been overworked, and he's overpaid but I'm not writing him off as a good closer.

One player who could really help the Reds if he could get his strength back is Jared Burton. Him coming up and throwing like he did in 08 would be huge.

ILoveWilly
05-23-2010, 12:08 AM
I had just said earlier that he was OVERPAID. Can you read? Go back a page or so and read the brillance of my post. I like how you're not answering my question.

Here, I'll save you time. Here was my post:

I don't think anyone is saying he isn't overpaid. The problem is you're pretty much stuck with that contract. Whose going to take on 12 million for a closer. I'd argue that money would be better spent elsewhere too. However, that doesn't mean I'm writing off Cordero after a bad 10 days. Hell, his era was 2.77 after a couple of days in May. He's been overworked, and he's overpaid but I'm not writing him off as a good closer.

One player who could really help the Reds if he could get his strength back is Jared Burton. Him coming up and throwing like he did in 08 would be huge.

Thanks for proving my point. Either he's good and he can be traded, or he's not and he can't. You're saying two different things. He sucks, and I would trade him for whatever we could get for him.

Kingspoint
05-23-2010, 12:09 AM
You're the one saying he's awesome, so why do I need to come up with a scenario? Obviously you think he's good at what he does and isn't overpaid, so why would there be a problem trading him? Can't have it both ways.

The money's already been spent.

First place will bring in the crowds during the Summer. That's more money to help pay for the whole team.

And, I don't want to trade him. He stabilizes the entire bullpen. We need another like him, not get rid of him for something less.

BurgervilleBuck
05-23-2010, 12:11 AM
C'mon, Willy.

Enjoy the victory.

The REDS are in First Place.

They've rebounded from that disaster in Atlanta.
My thoughts exactly. After a sigh of relief, however, I will admit.

ILoveWilly
05-23-2010, 12:12 AM
The money's already been spent.

First place will bring in the crowds during the Summer. That's more money to help pay for the whole team.

And, I don't want to trade him. He stabilizes the entire bullpen. We need another like him, not get rid of him for something less.

We would be in first with or without Cordero, he's a non factor. Like I listed, there are plenty of other guys doing his job with no problem. Heck at this point I would demote him to middle reliever and let Rhodes close so maybe he wakes up and starts to pitch instead of sitting on his huge payday.

NeilHamburger
05-23-2010, 12:31 AM
Thanks for proving my point. Either he's good and he can be traded, or he's not and he can't. You're saying two different things. He sucks, and I would trade him for whatever we could get for him.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that he is overpaid, and you would have trouble moving the contract, but that he is, has, and at the very least could be a solid closer. I don't think a solid closer is worth 12 million, especially not on a team with a 70 million dollar payroll.

But, at this point the team is winning. By trading Cordero now and moving Rhodes to the ninth you're changing the entire makeup of the bullpen. It could work, or things could blow up like in the mid-2000s. Also, at 40 Dusty has said they have to be careful with Rhodes and not pitch him too much.

Saying someone sucks and has no value (your point) is different then saying someone is a solid contributer but not worth 12% of the team's payroll (my point).

Roush's socks
05-23-2010, 01:55 AM
I think some of you are forgetting how much harder it is to be a closer than a middle reliever. Cordero is proven and he'll get it back together unless he's injured.

On another point. I think Dusty needs to use Owings for more innings as a long middle relief guy. IMO in tonight's game, he could have been in there longer. That takes pressure off the rest of the bullpen. Hopefully he could even pitch 3 innings and close out games where the Reds have a lead.

Vottomatic
05-23-2010, 10:46 AM
Owings is pitching really well.

What I noticed of him when he was a starter, is that when he'd get up into the 70 to 80 pitch range, he'd start to fall apart. And alot of times that was the 5th inning for him. I think he lacks the arm strength.

Long reliever is a good place for him.

As for Cordero. He has good stretches and bad stretches. He does frustrate me at times. And I do agree that $12M is too much to be paying him. When you overpay a guy that much, it basically makes him untradable because no other team would want him at that price.

sivman17
05-23-2010, 10:52 AM
Cordero is being overpitched. He has shown in the past (including this year) that he is MUCH better when he is well rested.

I realize he's your closer and you bring him in for save situations and that could be 3, 4 days in a row. But, Thursday he was brought in when he shouldn't have been (even though it was a save situation). Last night there was really no reason to bring him in. I would've brought in Lincoln or Fisher to pitch the 9th.

Give him two or three days rest and I think he will be more effective.

Jack Burton
05-23-2010, 11:24 AM
Don't remind me...I spent a lot of time in the mid 90's as a youth following that team and being disappointed by the bullpen.

You're kidding, who would have guessed you were a Mariners fan?

arkimadee
05-23-2010, 12:02 PM
Remember when David Weathers was our closer?

PlugALeake
05-23-2010, 12:52 PM
Remember when David Weathers was our closer?

The Good Ole' Natural Disaster!

ILoveWilly
07-09-2010, 10:15 PM
BUMP. Anything else guys? Called it from day freaking one. Tonight is the dump on top of the cake. Bravo to those who defended this clown. Is there any question now that he's atrocious and the most overpaid player in the past decade outside Eric Milton??

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:16 PM
Looks like it's becoming clearer and clearer that we can't hope to go into the playoffs with this guy at the back of our pen.

Mr Larkin
07-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Cordero is not good enough many nights. Of course tonight Rhodes didn't do any better.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Dusty is a manager of players not games. He will try to get a stat over a win most nights. It bites him a lot.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:23 PM
Dusty is a manager of players not games. He will try to get a stat over a win most nights. It bites him a lot.

Dusty was not the problem tonight. Why do people continue to try and force this loss onto the manager's shoulders?

lidspinner
07-09-2010, 10:25 PM
I have said it since late last year...our closer is Francisco Graves. The guy is done, he hardly has any command, he relies on batters swinging at bad pitches to bail him out....his a shell of what he was 3 years ago. If the Reds front office plus Dusty keeps going to Graves just because of his contract then that tells you all you need to know about what they are expecting out of this year....

the facts are starting to prove the line here....I am not about to start calling out my favorite team over a few bad nights of baseball but I sure am starting to see the light. Graves can get a save every night of the week if he is given a 4 run lead....Hell, so could I for that matter. Lets see what happens from here on out, its obvious to everyone in the game what it takes to beat Francisco, wait on fastball and only swing at strikes...the guy has no other pitch. I hope he proves me wrong and goes on a Arthur Rhodes like streak.

scott91575
07-09-2010, 10:26 PM
Dusty was not the problem tonight. Why do people continue to try and force this loss onto the manager's shoulders?

Whose job is it to pull a starter who was clearly done after the first 3 or 4 batters in the 9th?

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Whose job is it to pull a starter who was clearly done for the night after the first 3 or 4 batters?

He was not "clearly done." How can you even try to say that? The phillies got a bloop hit and a broken-bat-seeing-eye single to get those two runners on. Who in their right mind would have seen that and said "he's done. Obviously can't get anyone out." No. We were all saying he was unlucky after that crap. Baseball is like that sometimes. Oh well, but it wasn't the manager's fault in this case.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Dusty was pushing Leake for the CG. Letting him get 3 base runners on in the 9th is an issue. He was at 100+ pitches when he gave up the homer.

He goes to Cordero no matter what when a save chance is out there. News flash Cordero has been very bad this year, and has given up 60 base runners in 40 innings.

Its not all on Dusty but he gets plenty of blame. If he doesnt want blame quit managing. People cant always blame the players.

lidspinner
07-09-2010, 10:29 PM
Dusty was not the problem tonight. Why do people continue to try and force this loss onto the manager's shoulders?


for the same reason everyone accuses the known wife beater when his wife shows up at work with black eyes.....even if she truly did fall down the stairs...they accuse the "obvious" because...well, its obvious and its probably the truth.

Same with Dusty.....when the Reds lose a few games in the bottom of the 9th or in extra innings the "obvious" direction to lay blame is with the guy who is....well, the most obvious. Dusty has lost a few games for us this year regardless of what anyone wants to say.....at the same time, I truly think Dusty has won a few games for us as well.....but when we lose bad, everyone is going to look for the guy who made the error, and that is usually going to be Dusty.

The Voice of IH
07-09-2010, 10:30 PM
Boy, he is trouble for this team. when you can not rely on your closer, you have problems. and guys...we have big problems

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:31 PM
for the same reason everyone accuses the known wife beater when his wife shows up at work with black eyes.....even if she truly did fall down the stairs...they accuse the "obvious" because...well, its obvious and its probably the truth.

Same with Dusty.....when the Reds lose a few games in the bottom of the 9th or in extra innings the "obvious" direction to lay blame is with the guy who is....well, the most obvious. Dusty has lost a few games for us this year regardless of what anyone wants to say.....at the same time, I truly think Dusty has won a few games for us as well.....but when we lose bad, everyone is going to look for the guy who made the error, and that is usually going to be Dusty.

I can understand that when he makes a clear error somewhere. But tonight he played it totally by the book. Made the same decisions the other 29 managers in the league would have made. I guarantee that.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:31 PM
The play of Cabrera and Dustys stubbornness of doing anything about it let alone moving him out of the top 2 spots in the order is just another example. Dusty manages players, not games.

ILoveWilly
07-09-2010, 10:32 PM
The only problem with Dusty and the Reds organization as a whole is to continue to keep trotting Cordero out there as a viable closer. Bottom line is, we need to trade for a closer like Soria, or anyone really. Take Cordero out of the closer role, and the only role to put him in is in middle relief in a game you're down in. The end. This guy should not be brought out ever again as a closer. His WHIP is ridiculous, his ERA is rapidly rising, and he should be about the 5th guy in line in the pen.

RedsFanInBama
07-09-2010, 10:32 PM
I agree on Cabrera. He shouldn't have been in the lineup, period. But allowing him to take six at-bats? Just atrocious.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:32 PM
And I love how we all look past the defensive moves he made in the last two innings. Heisey moved to left and Stubbs to CF. Immediately gets an out that Gomes wouldn't have gotten.

Janish came in as a defensive sub even. Dusty made all the right calls tonight, without the benefit of hindsight. You can't put ANY of this on him.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:34 PM
And I love how we all look past the defensive moves he made in the last two innings. Heisey moved to left and Stubbs to CF. Immediately gets an out that Gomes wouldn't have gotten.

Janish came in as a defensive sub even. Dusty made all the right calls tonight, without the benefit of hindsight. You can't put ANY of this on him.


you mean the manager did his job? Should we say great job Dusty? Its not like those moves are not the most obvious in the world. Fact is he hardly does that also.

chisdad
07-09-2010, 10:36 PM
And I love how we all look past the defensive moves he made in the last two innings. Heisey moved to left and Stubbs to CF. Immediately gets an out that Gomes wouldn't have gotten.

Janish came in as a defensive sub even. Dusty made all the right calls tonight, without the benefit of hindsight. You can't put ANY of this on him.

Are you serious??? Have you ever played the game? You have a pitcher struggling in the ninth, bloop hits or not. Go get him and bring a left hander in against the lefty and we probably get out of the 9th with the win. It is the manager who makes that decision. Dusty has had this problem several times this year ans it has cost the Reds many games. It is getting old.

ILoveWilly
07-09-2010, 10:37 PM
I'm going to continue to blame Dusty and Walt until they stop managing by salary. Cordero is the highest paid reliever in the game and we got him as a closer, so he's the closer. Cabrera was our "big" free agent veteran pick up to play shortstop, so he plays shortstop.

It's time to stop bending over backwards for these guys egos for the detriment of the team. Sit Cabrera. Move Cordero to middle relief. Until that happens, I'm going to blame our manager and our general manager.

lidspinner
07-09-2010, 10:41 PM
I can understand that when he makes a clear error somewhere. But tonight he played it totally by the book. Made the same decisions the other 29 managers in the league would have made. I guarantee that.

I disagree 100000%. I can name 4 other managers in the NL alone that would have made different choices....not saying they are the right choices, but Dustys job is to win games.....and if he is going to follow protocol then he needs to accept blame when that protocol dont work....the good managers go against the book at times, and thats what defines you as good or bad....Dusty has problems and he has been quoted several times stating stats that are just plain wrong....the guy goes with his gut and his gut is usually wrong.....I truly believe he is more worried about making friends then he is winning games.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 10:43 PM
Dusty haters gonna hate. I'm gonna go get a beer and try to forget this game. Cordero and Cabrera. Cordero and Cabrera ...

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:50 PM
Dusty haters gonna hate. I'm gonna go get a beer and try to forget this game. Cordero and Cabrera. Cordero and Cabrera ...

They are both awful, but they arent the people who choose when they play. Dusty deserves blame as well.

redram
07-09-2010, 10:53 PM
No way is Dusty at fault here, BUT and a BIG BUT Cordero is DONE, period. He has been hit or miss all year and I mean he either gives up a hit or misses the strike zone for walks. We better find a closer fast because Cordero is turning into another Danny Graves. This loss was worse than the one to the Braves IMO and hopefully we can rebound and get the next one. Man this one HURTS.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:56 PM
I want to make it clear Im not blaming it all on Dusty. Cordero, Cabrera, Leake, and Rhodes are all worthy of some blame as well. The common denominator is that Dusty has a managing style that tells him to get the counting stat first. He tends to not think ahead of time. He was dead set on getting Leake the CG tonight. He didnt think "what if a couple guys get on". He was dead set on letting Leake stay in until it was a save situation, he was dead set on using Cordero in that situation.

Its Dustys managing style. You have to live with it. Doesnt mean I have to like it.

ILoveWilly
07-09-2010, 11:06 PM
I want to make it clear Im not blaming it all on Dusty. Cordero, Cabrera, Leake, and Rhodes are all worthy of some blame as well. The common denominator is that Dusty has a managing style that tells him to get the counting stat first. He tends to not think ahead of time. He was dead set on getting Leake the CG tonight. He didnt think "what if a couple guys get on". He was dead set on letting Leake stay in until it was a save situation, he was dead set on using Cordero in that situation.

Its Dustys managing style. You have to live with it. Doesnt mean I have to like it.

I don't really care about his managerial style in this case, I feel its an entire retarded baseball philosophy to play by your salaries to your detriment, basically. Cordero is Mr $12 million, Mr closer, and no matter what he does even with this game, they're going to make excuses and give him absolutely every benefit of the doubt.

Wait until the postgame comments, or comments tomorrow, I'm sure Dusty and/or Walt will give us a big "it happens", explain how Cordero still leads the NL in saves, etc. Ignoring his horrible statistics, his rapidly climbing ERA and horrible WHIP, along with how many runners per inning get on with him in the game.

Let's just say in bizarro land that some called up minor league guy we didn't expect much from was doing the same exact thing. Rhodes would have took over for him as closer like two months ago!

It's just amazing how managers can't pull the trigger on "veterans" who get paid a nice amount, even if it hurts the team, they don't want to hurt their egos or do anything to cause them to get upset. Haven't we seen this before with Griffey? Oh no, don't bench him or move him from CF! He'll get angry and you won't like him when he's angry! :rolleyes:

So unless our manager or GM grows a pair and they actually decide to make the moves to better the team and get Cordero OUT as closer and Cabrera OUT as starting SS, it's their fault and going to continue to be their fault, because they are valuing the individual over the team as a whole. And that's pretty damn pathetic.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 11:07 PM
Cordero has 20 walks and 41 hits allowed in 40 2/3 innings this season.

Im willing to be 20 of those walks have came before the 41 hits in every outing also.

BRM13
07-09-2010, 11:21 PM
I don't really care about his managerial style in this case, I feel its an entire retarded baseball philosophy to play by your salaries to your detriment, basically. Cordero is Mr $12 million, Mr closer, and no matter what he does even with this game, they're going to make excuses and give him absolutely every benefit of the doubt.

Wait until the postgame comments, or comments tomorrow, I'm sure Dusty and/or Walt will give us a big "it happens", explain how Cordero still leads the NL in saves, etc. Ignoring his horrible statistics, his rapidly climbing ERA and horrible WHIP, along with how many runners per inning get on with him in the game.

Let's just say in bizarro land that some called up minor league guy we didn't expect much from was doing the same exact thing. Rhodes would have took over for him as closer like two months ago!

It's just amazing how managers can't pull the trigger on "veterans" who get paid a nice amount, even if it hurts the team, they don't want to hurt their egos or do anything to cause them to get upset. Haven't we seen this before with Griffey? Oh no, don't bench him or move him from CF! He'll get angry and you won't like him when he's angry! :rolleyes:

So unless our manager or GM grows a pair and they actually decide to make the moves to better the team and get Cordero OUT as closer and Cabrera OUT as starting SS, it's their fault and going to continue to be their fault, because they are valuing the individual over the team as a whole. And that's pretty damn pathetic.

I agree 100% with your basic point about not managing by salary. I also agree that I'm worried about Cordero. However, the tendency of giving veterans more slack than rookies isn't all about salary or respect. It makes sense from a statistical point of view. Guys tend to regress toward the mean (play to the line on the back of their baseball cards) from extremes. With guys good enough to become veterans, that mean is generally pretty good; with rookies, you might be seeing the mean when they are struggling, you don't/won't wait as long to find out.

Btw, just because I can rationalize some of Dusty's behavior doesn't mean I believe that he explicitly thinks this way! :)

couch_manager
07-10-2010, 12:20 AM
Cordero has 20 walks and 41 hits allowed in 40 2/3 innings this season.

Im willing to be 20 of those walks have came before the 41 hits in every outing also.

Actually, it's 41 hits and 22 walks in 40 2/3. :beerme: 63 base runners in 41 innings is no good for any pitcher in the bullpen, let alone the closer. And it's not like he's had a few bad outings to inflate those numbers. He walks a tight rope every time he goes out there.

malcontent
07-10-2010, 12:26 AM
How about giving Masset a shot at closing?

Or a Masset/Rhodes closing platoon, based on match-ups.

Switch Cordero to set-up.

He may complain, but I bet he'll still cash the checks.

couch_manager
07-10-2010, 12:40 AM
How about giving Masset a shot at closing?

Or a Masset/Rhodes closing platoon, based on match-ups.

Switch Cordero to set-up.

He may complain, but I bet he'll still cash the checks.

Masset? :confused:

The guy can't pitch with runners on! I don't know why Baker still insists using the guy as the setup man in the 8th inning. He'd be in long relief by now if it were up to me. I can't fathom the rationale Dusty would use for putting him in to close games.

He's got great stuff, but he just doesn't hit his spots and leaves too many balls right over the heart of the plate.

bshall2105
07-10-2010, 12:44 AM
How about giving Masset a shot at closing?

Or a Masset/Rhodes closing platoon, based on match-ups.

Switch Cordero to set-up.

He may complain, but I bet he'll still cash the checks.

If Masset becomes the closer were just going to have all of the same problems. He is like Coco junior. I don't have the numbers right here but he has just as hard of a time finding the strike zone as Cordero, if not worse. We're basically going to have all of the same complaints we have tonight about a different pitcher. There is no need for a sideways move.

malcontent
07-10-2010, 12:51 AM
Masset 2009 WHIP: 1.026

He might take to it (closing).

If WJ wants to trade for a new closer, that's fine by me too. But something's gotta give.

couch_manager
07-10-2010, 12:59 AM
Masset 2009 WHIP: 1.026

He might take to it (closing).

Don't fall too in love with stats. I've seen enough of him this year to know that he couldn't handle the pressure.

This is 2010 anyway and his WHIP is 1.714

They're not going to replace Cordero. He makes too much money to be in any other role and he wouldn't be fun to be around in that situation. But if I had to pick a guy to replace him (barring a trade), it'd be Jordan Smith.

bshall2105
07-10-2010, 01:05 AM
I like Jordan Smith but there is now way in the world that would ever happen. A veteran manager doesn't letting rookies from AA close out games, nor should he. I agree something does need to happen, and maybe losing out on Cliff Lee this soon, allows us to go after our real need which is bullpen help.

couch_manager
07-10-2010, 01:14 AM
They'd never give Jordan Smith a shot, I know. But if you were hell bent on removing Cordero from the closer role and you couldn't trade for anybody, who would you replace him with?

Arthur Rhodes? No. They're concerned about his innings.

Nick Masset? No. No further explanation needed.

Androsek? No. Rookie and he's got the same syndrome as Masset.

Bill Bray? No. He's coming off of surgery and has only thrown a few innings in the last 2 years.

Micah Owings? No. He's your long man and he's got very average stuff.

bshall2105
07-10-2010, 01:19 AM
They'd never give Jordan Smith a shot, I know. But if you were hell bent on removing Cordero from the closer role and you couldn't trade for anybody, who would you replace him with?

Arthur Rhodes? No. They're concerned about his innings.

Nick Masset? No. No further explanation needed.

Androsek? No. Rookie and he's got the same syndrome as Masset.

Bill Bray? No. He's coming off of surgery and has only thrown a few innings in the last 2 years.

Micah Owings? No. He's your long man and he's got very average stuff.

I guess the point is he won't ever be replaced.:barf:

cbowen2112
07-10-2010, 01:24 AM
I guess the point is he won't ever be replaced.:barf:

Not with anyone we have now...a trade or next year maybe...maybe he gets some rest and is ready pump some strikes the second half? No...that would be too easy.

couch_manager
07-10-2010, 01:38 AM
Not with anyone we have now...a trade or next year maybe...maybe he gets some rest and is ready pump some strikes the second half? No...that would be too easy.

He can't throw strikes this year because because batters have taken away his bread and butter (the outside corner) too.

I'd rather see him hit batters than walk them. Maybe then he'd get that tiny little outside corner back. :D

ILoveWilly
07-30-2010, 11:00 PM
Alalalalala bumpa. LEAVE CORDERO!!!! :thumbdown

DocRed
07-30-2010, 11:16 PM
Coco is terrible...bottom 5 closer in the majors easy.

krm1580
07-30-2010, 11:18 PM
I am just confused that a guy with so little movement on his pitches can't throw strikes when he needs too.

sabometrics
07-30-2010, 11:51 PM
I am just confused that a guy with so little movement on his pitches can't throw strikes when he needs too.

So true ...

Hondo
07-31-2010, 05:07 AM
Heres the deal boys... He is to close down games! Not to be put in there to keep it tied...

This has been a Dusty mistake over and over again numberous times...

CoCo is only to be put in there in SAVE situations...

Nuff said.

ukwazoo
07-31-2010, 06:11 AM
He's 8th worst in ERA for closers. He's 5th worst if you throw out Kerry Wood, Bobby Jenks, & Alfredo Simon (since they have either lost their jobs or are about to).

The entire idea of a closer is idiotic in the first place. Put your best pitcher in as much as possible and at the most ideal time. And just because he's paid the most, does not mean he's the best arm in the 'pen. Any small market spending $12 million on a closer deserves what they get.

Vottomatic
07-31-2010, 06:21 AM
Basically, Cordero is another reason this team won't go far if they make the postseason because the other contenders have superior closers.

muddie
07-31-2010, 06:23 AM
Heres the deal boys... He is to close down games! Not to be put in there to keep it tied...

This has been a Dusty mistake over and over again numberous times...

CoCo is only to be put in there in SAVE situations...

Nuff said.

My thoughts exactly. I was unable to watch the game last night but when I looked over the box score it didn't make sense. I really can't say how many times this has happened but Cordero has to be the out guy. Seeing Jordan's name behind his doesn't make sense. He should not have been put in that situation. Granted, I did not see the game FWIW.

malcontent
07-31-2010, 12:48 PM
"It's nice to be a buyer versus a seller," Baker said. "A couple of years ago we traded (Adam) Dunn and (Ken) Griffey close to each other. Last year, teams were trying to pluck some of our best guys - Arthur (Rhodes), (Bronson) Arroyo, (Francisco) Cordero, (Aaron) Harang. We had the foresight to think about this year."

-Fay

Whew.

BurgervilleBuck
07-31-2010, 01:35 PM
Heres the deal boys... He is to close down games! Not to be put in there to keep it tied...

This has been a Dusty mistake over and over again numberous times...

CoCo is only to be put in there in SAVE situations...

Nuff said.

Exactly. I scratched my head when he switched out Rhodes for Cordero. Why bring your closer in in a tie game?

I hope some of these "intangibles" are sticking in Jocketty's brain when it comes time to talk about Baker's future with the organization.

BurgervilleBuck
07-31-2010, 01:42 PM
We better find a closer fast because Cordero is turning into another Danny Graves.
Yah, my wife was starting to compare him to Blown Saves Graves, so much so that she was trying to think of a comparable nickname. The best we came up with is "Oh no, Cordero".

Hey... maybe if someone calls Cordero's lineage into question, he'll flip them off and he'll get shipped out of town.

CWRed
07-31-2010, 03:24 PM
Cordero was allowed to throw 35 pitches by Dumbsty. He had Smith and Fisher left to use. Oh wait Fisher is his "long man." Which means he never pitches. And Gomes should have been out of the game late. Dusty's stupidity astounds me. And we're stuck with him barring a late season disaster.

Free Paul Janish.

ILoveWilly
07-31-2010, 04:13 PM
What annoy me about defending Cordero as well is all these excuses about how he has to be used in a certain manner. Oh he can only close games, shouldn't be in in a tie game. Well guess what, he's second in the majors in Blown Saves, so, so much for the close games argument. And the fact is, he puts himself in his own trouble and gets his pitch count high. I bet if there was a a closer stat where blown saves + saves where winning run is at plate, that Cordero would be far and away the worst in the majors. He puts himself into his own trouble and that's why his pitch count gets high. He's jsut a bad pitcher, period.

bshall2105
07-31-2010, 07:50 PM
Francisco Cordero looks to be turning the corner. In his last 1 appearance he hasn't allowed a single run to score.

Revering4Blue
07-31-2010, 09:11 PM
Heres the deal boys... He is to close down games! Not to be put in there to keep it tied...

This has been a Dusty mistake over and over again numberous times...

CoCo is only to be put in there in SAVE situations...

Nuff said.

Quoted for truth.

Griffey012
08-07-2010, 03:57 PM
I'll just go ahead and bump this so we dont get another new thread.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 04:02 PM
Cordero sucks eggs. Terrible.

ILoveWilly
08-07-2010, 04:04 PM
Note: I said this May 5th, and a lot of people in this thread made every excuse in the book for him since then, and the beat keeps rolling on. The guy should not be on this team.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 04:06 PM
Note: I said this May 5th, and a lot of people in this thread made every excuse in the book for him since then, and the beat keeps rolling on. The guy should not be on this team.

Dude, 90% of this board or more have been disappointed/angry at Cordero since last year. This is nothing new. Hence all the Cordero bashing threads that have been around since time began.

Don't act like you're the only one. That's ridiculous. :rolleyes:

bshall2105
08-07-2010, 04:07 PM
Does Cordero get a hold for today's outing?

moewan
08-07-2010, 04:08 PM
i get the feeling that cordero is headed for "tommy john surgery" and he can go on the 60 day dl. thus helping the roster crunch

sivman17
08-07-2010, 04:08 PM
As good as Ondrusek, Smith, Rhodes, and Masset have been, there is no reason we have to deal with CoCo every time we're in a save situation. I say try him in a different inning, or just don't try him at all. He is terrible. He is the worst pitcher on the team right now, yet we put him in with a win on the line.

ILoveWilly
08-07-2010, 04:08 PM
i get the feeling that cordero is headed for "tommy john surgery" and he can go on the 60 day dl. thus helping the roster crunch

Cordero is so bad he's going to get his own surgery named after him.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 04:10 PM
As good as Ondrusek, Smith, Rhodes, and Masset have been, there is no reason we have to deal with CoCo every time we're in a save situation. I say try him in a different inning, or just don't try him at all. He is terrible. He is the worst pitcher on the team right now, yet we put him in with a win on the line.

Make Cordero our long reliever. Our $12M dollar long reliever. LOL. :D

sivman17
08-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Make Cordero our long reliever. Our $12M dollar long reliever. LOL. :D

I'd rather make him our $12M dollar AAA closer.

DocRed
08-07-2010, 04:13 PM
Hey but here is the good news guys....we get him next year for another $12 million!!

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Why can't they demote Cordero and have a meeting with him.

1. Tell him his control has become a huge issue and he needs time to work on it. He will now be allocated to pitching in non-pressure situations until he proves he's regained his control and confidence.
2. Remind him we're in a pennant race and the team cannot afford to risk things and wait for him to straighten himself out.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

And if management continues to put up with his crap just because of $$$, then they disappoint me greatly.

ILoveWilly
08-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Make Cordero our long reliever. Our $12M dollar long reliever. LOL. :D

Here's what we do. We find the most overpaid, useless player that hasn't been claimed on the waiver wire. I don't care if it's a guy who is out injured getting paid $10 mil who is batting .200. Trade for him with Cordero. At least there's a possibility he could do something well - like tell jokes or make a mean whip cream pieing.

texasdave
08-07-2010, 04:20 PM
As good as Ondrusek, Smith, Rhodes, and Masset have been, there is no reason we have to deal with CoCo every time we're in a save situation. I say try him in a different inning, or just don't try him at all. He is terrible. He is the worst pitcher on the team right now, yet we put him in with a win on the line.

And all that good work by the rest of the bullpen gets put into jeopardy every single time Cordero takes the mound. I will bet even money that Bryan Price had to pinch Dusty to get him up and moving out to the mound. There was a tear in his eye when he took the ball from Cordero.

ILoveWilly
08-07-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm sorting through closers with any time of saving games more than like 3 through the stats, and checking their WHIP.

Chad Qualls has like 12 saves with a 1.95 WHIP at Arizona, no idea if he's the closer there currently with that, I'm guessing not.

Francisco Cordero is up to a 1.55 WHIP, tied with Matt Lindstrom of Houston who has 22 saves.

Alredo Simon of the Baltimore Orioles has a 1.51 WHIP with 16 saves.

Lidge for Philly has 13 saves with a 1.48 WHIP, and Bobby Jenks with the ChiSox with 13 saves and a 1.46 WHIP.

So as far as pure WHIP Cordero is tied for the worst closer in the league.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 04:32 PM
1.69 WHIP in his last 16 outings. No bueno.

mmt1552
08-07-2010, 04:37 PM
Why can't they demote Cordero and have a meeting with him.

1. Tell him his control has become a huge issue and he needs time to work on it. He will now be allocated to pitching in non-pressure situations until he proves he's regained his control and confidence.
2. Remind him we're in a pennant race and the team cannot afford to risk things and wait for him to straighten himself out.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

And if management continues to put up with his crap just because of $$$, then they disappoint me greatly.

I would think that Cordero hs no option left (I'm not 100% positive though). But yeah, besides that you're right. They can't keep putting him out there in the 9th inning in a playoff race.

roby
08-07-2010, 04:44 PM
Cordero is quickly becoming Danny Graves. I don't know what the answer is...but I sure know WHO the answer is NOT!

couch_manager
08-07-2010, 04:46 PM
Cordero is quickly becoming Danny Graves. I don't know what the answer is...but I sure know WHO the answer is NOT!

This is what happens to closers around here. Rob Dibble went out the same way. I remember calling him Rob Nibble in his last couple years with the club.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 04:49 PM
Cordero is quickly becoming Danny Graves. I don't know what the answer is...but I sure know WHO the answer is NOT!

True story. Fans at GABP are already booing Cordero nearly every time he takes the mound, just like Graves.

We just need to piss CoCo off so he flips off a fan and gets sent packing.

nouseforaname
08-07-2010, 04:58 PM
I have an idea for a new Reds promotion:
Now at every Reds home game, fans have the opportunity to donate as little or as much money as they want to the "Cordero Relief Fund." Your donations will help needy Reds with heart conditions, and help others who are at risk. Your donations will help us pay him to go away.

Kingspoint
08-07-2010, 07:00 PM
Rotoworld's comments:

Masset entered the game with one out in the ninth after Francisco Cordero walked the bases loaded and then proceeded to hit Starlin Castro to force in a run. Masset struck out Derrek Lee, but then walked Aramis Ramirez with the bases loaded to bring the Cubs within one run. He was finally able to strike out Marlon Byrd to end it. Cordero's job is pretty safe, but with a 2.48 ERA since the start of May, there's little doubt that Masset is the best pitcher in the Reds' bullpen right now.

Knightro28
08-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Rotoworld's comments:

Masset entered the game with one out in the ninth after Francisco Cordero walked the bases loaded and then proceeded to hit Starlin Castro to force in a run. Masset struck out Derrek Lee, but then walked Aramis Ramirez with the bases loaded to bring the Cubs within one run. He was finally able to strike out Marlon Byrd to end it. Cordero's job is pretty safe, but with a 2.48 ERA since the start of May, there's little doubt that Masset is the best pitcher in the Reds' bullpen right now.

Arthur?!?!

davereds24
08-07-2010, 07:05 PM
Ondrusek? Smith?

GIDP
08-07-2010, 07:07 PM
Rhodes doesnt really pitch full innings and has struggled a little as of late.

Its a dumb debate though because a lot of guys back there in the pen have been amazing as of late.

davereds24
08-07-2010, 07:11 PM
Rhodes has pitched as many innings as Masset lately and he definitely isn't struggling.

I agree not worth debating though, but that's a terrible statement by rotoworld.

GIDP
08-07-2010, 07:17 PM
Rhodes has pitched as many innings as Masset lately and he definitely isn't struggling.

I agree not worth debating though, but that's a terrible statement by rotoworld.

Masset has thrown 16 innings since the all star break not counting today

Rhodes has thrown 11 1/3

Rhodes is used more situationaly. Masset tends to get 1 inning every time he goes out.


Rhodes ERA is higher but really its nit picking.

Hondo
08-07-2010, 07:19 PM
Well Cordero still throws heat and this team is going to need a Dominant Cordero to go far in the playoffs... It is better to get Cordero "right" than to just simply not use him. My suggestion would be... In Blowouts... Have him pitch the last Inning to get back his feel for the stirike zone and have Masset Shut Games down for just a bit...

But Dusty will favor his Vetran Closer and keep running him out there...

But just so we are all clear... This team needs Cordero to be a Dominant Flame throwing Closer....

Seriously.

GIDP
08-07-2010, 07:21 PM
Well Cordero still throws heat and this team is going to need a Dominant Cordero to go far in the playoffs... It is better to get Cordero "right" than to just simply not use him. My suggestion would be... In Blowouts... Have him pitch the last Inning to get back his feel for the stirike zone and have Masset Shut Games down for just a bit...

But Dusty will favor his Vetran Closer and keep running him out there...

But just so se are all clear... This team needs Cordero to be a Dominant Flame throwing Closer....

Seriously.

I would suggest that his flamethrower really isnt any better than anyone else in the pen right now. He might be able to tune that FB up a little more, and I really mean just a little more, but they all seem to have the ability to hit 94.

Old NDN
08-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Maybe one of the reasons Dusty is reluctant to "give up" on Cordero is team chemistry, for those who believe in such things. He's been a mentor/hero for Volquez, Cueto, and some of the other Latin players on the team. Probably don't want to create more problems by attempting to solve the closer headache. But hey, we're still in first place!

Reds
08-08-2010, 01:01 PM
Some lines from Baker about Cordero


"He’s the best we’ve got. ... There’s no real answer. The booing and hissing does not help the situation at all.” Baker said.

“He didn’t say nothing,” Baker said. “That’s the first time I’ve taken him out this year. We’re in a pennant race. I could tell he didn’t want to give me the ball. He gave me the ball. I got no problem with not wanting to do something — as long as you don’t show me up. That’s not going to happen.

“He’s supposed to have problem with coming out. But I’ve got to do what I got to do to help us win. I’ve also got to stick with him enough for him not to lose confidence, not to think we lost confidence in him, because he could lose confidence in himself.”

GIDP
08-08-2010, 01:31 PM
Yea we better make sure we lose games instead of him losing confidence.

kfm
08-08-2010, 01:48 PM
Yea we better make sure we lose games instead of him losing confidence.

So you don't think there is a correlation between performance and confidence????

bshall2105
08-08-2010, 02:02 PM
So you don't think there is a correlation between performance and confidence????

Winning games is much more important than Cordero's confidence.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 02:16 PM
Winning games is much more important than Cordero's confidence.

Cordero's confidence is part of the equation of winning games though. Dusty handled it fine and said the right things after the fact.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 03:09 PM
So you don't think there is a correlation between performance and confidence????

To put confidence ahead of winning is the issue. If hes afraid to yank Cordero because of his confidence being hurt then when is he comfortable in yanking him? Clearly its bases loaded 1 out and only a 2 run lead after hes walked 3 and plunked a guy.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 06:40 PM
To put confidence ahead of winning is the issue. If hes afraid to yank Cordero because of his confidence being hurt then when is he comfortable in yanking him? Clearly its bases loaded 1 out and only a 2 run lead after hes walked 3 and plunked a guy.

I am hoping that if it weren't a 3 run lead Dusty would have yanked him after the 3rd walk. If it's a one run game against the Cards, if he walks the leadoff batter he better be yanked.

kfm
08-08-2010, 08:24 PM
To put confidence ahead of winning is the issue. If hes afraid to yank Cordero because of his confidence being hurt then when is he comfortable in yanking him? Clearly its bases loaded 1 out and only a 2 run lead after hes walked 3 and plunked a guy.

I think you are underestimating the impact of a confident Cordero on the Reds ability to win games. Dusty understands that the reds are a better team with a confident Cordero. Just like they are better with a confident Jay Bruce or Drew Stubbs or any other player. I think Dusty's comments were quite frankly more aimed at Cordero letting him know that his manager still has faith in him. Hard to believe that someone could turn that into Dusty does not want to win. I am quite frankly amazed that people refuse to understand this concept.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 08:52 PM
I think you are underestimating the impact of a confident Cordero on the Reds ability to win games. Dusty understands that the reds are a better team with a confident Cordero. Just like they are better with a confident Jay Bruce or Drew Stubbs or any other player. I think Dusty's comments were quite frankly more aimed at Cordero letting him know that his manager still has faith in him. Hard to believe that someone could turn that into Dusty does not want to win. I am quite frankly amazed that people refuse to understand this concept.

the game I saw yesterday was Dusty trying to keep the player happy over winning the game. They had a 3 run lead, and Dusty let the winning run reach base before he pulled Cordero. I dont know how else to look at it. It seemed obvious that Dusty was willing to let that game get tied if it meant Cordero stayed in.

I understand a player needs confidence but if the player doesnt know he sucks then how much can that player really help you? you think Cordero doesnt know hes struggling? Pulling him after he walked the bases loaded couldnt hurt his mental stability that much or hes a pretty big mental midget.

kfm
08-08-2010, 09:15 PM
the game I saw yesterday was Dusty trying to keep the player happy over winning the game. They had a 3 run lead, and Dusty let the winning run reach base before he pulled Cordero. I dont know how else to look at it. It seemed obvious that Dusty was willing to let that game get tied if it meant Cordero stayed in.

I understand a player needs confidence but if the player doesnt know he sucks then how much can that player really help you? you think Cordero doesnt know hes struggling? Pulling him after he walked the bases loaded couldnt hurt his mental stability that much or hes a pretty big mental midget.

Ok, so you actually believe Dusty was ok with the game getting tied up. That is all I need to know to understand that this is a pointless conversation. All I can say is WOW. I wish I knew what is was like to dislike someone so much that I could actually think something this ridiculous.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 10:17 PM
Ok, so you actually believe Dusty was ok with the game getting tied up. That is all I need to know to understand that this is a pointless conversation. All I can say is WOW. I wish I knew what is was like to dislike someone so much that I could actually think something this ridiculous.

dude the tying run was on first in a 3 run game and he was still letting him pitch. This isnt a first time thing from Cordero. I dont think its out of line to suggest Dusty was pretty content with Cordero blowing that game if meant he didnt hurt his confidence.

Seriously it took 3 walks, a hit batter for Dusty to pull him... How else should I take this? If he didnt hit Castro and Castro got a hit at best the game would be 4-3 with the tying run on 3rd with 1 out and the winning run on first or second.

Yes I believe after reading Dustys comments that he was more than happy with letting that game get out of control. He basically did and it was amazing that they Cubs didnt at least tie it.

I dont hate Dusty so much to suggest he would rather lose a game if it meant his player was happy, but I do suggest that Dusty was going to watch that game blow up because of his managing style. Of course Dusty would rather win, but hes going to go with a player so long that hes goin to blow games by sitting back and watching it happen.

kfm
08-08-2010, 10:57 PM
dude the tying run was on first in a 3 run game and he was still letting him pitch. This isnt a first time thing from Cordero. I dont think its out of line to suggest Dusty was pretty content with Cordero blowing that game if meant he didnt hurt his confidence.

Seriously it took 3 walks, a hit batter for Dusty to pull him... How else should I take this? If he didnt hit Castro and Castro got a hit at best the game would be 4-3 with the tying run on 3rd with 1 out and the winning run on first or second.

Yes I believe after reading Dustys comments that he was more than happy with letting that game get out of control. He basically did and it was amazing that they Cubs didnt at least tie it.

I dont hate Dusty so much to suggest he would rather lose a game if it meant his player was happy, but I do suggest that Dusty was going to watch that game blow up because of his managing style. Of course Dusty would rather win, but hes going to go with a player so long that hes goin to blow games by sitting back and watching it happen.

If all of this is true, why did he take him out? If he was content to let the game get tied, why didn't he let the game get tied? I cannot believe you believe this especially since he took him out of the game and did not let the game get tied. You and I and Dusty have watced Cordero all year get himself into and out of trouble. He has blown six saves, that is true but he has also converted 13 of 14 and six in a row and all the while they have felt like rollercoasters. He got Ondrusec up the last time Cordero pitched and Cordero got out of it as he does a majority of the time. I know you hate dusty and think he is a complete idiot and you seem to cherry pick his comments in order to support your point of view but the very fact that he replaced Cordero proves how completely wrong you are. Funny when he sticks with Jay Bruce or Drew Stubbs, I don't see comments like this from you, I wonder why.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 11:07 PM
the game I saw yesterday was Dusty trying to keep the player happy over winning the game. They had a 3 run lead, and Dusty let the winning run reach base before he pulled Cordero. I dont know how else to look at it. It seemed obvious that Dusty was willing to let that game get tied if it meant Cordero stayed in.

I understand a player needs confidence but if the player doesnt know he sucks then how much can that player really help you? you think Cordero doesnt know hes struggling? Pulling him after he walked the bases loaded couldnt hurt his mental stability that much or hes a pretty big mental midget.

The tying run has reached base in probably 35% of Cordero's career saves, he is always flirting with danger. He had a 3 run lead and got himself into the jam, you give him 1 shot to get out of it. After he got ahead 0-2 on Castro, couldn't put him away, then plunked him, it was time. It's not like Dusty left him in after he hit Castro. I don't see what the big issue is. There are many times coaches have let their closer have bigger meltdowns than CoCo yesterday. Dusty did his job, pulled CoCo before it was too late, Masset came in and did his job, we won.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:13 PM
If all of this is true, why did he take him out? If he was content to let the game get tied, why didn't he let the game get tied? I cannot believe you believe this especially since he took him out of the game and did not let the game get tied. You and I and Dusty have watced Cordero all year get himself into and out of trouble. He has blown six saves, that is true but he has also converted 13 of 14 and six in a row and all the while they have felt like rollercoasters. He got Ondrusec up the last time Cordero pitched and Cordero got out of it as he does a majority of the time. I know you hate dusty and think he is a complete idiot and you seem to cherry pick his comments in order to support your point of view but the very fact that he replaced Cordero proves how completely wrong you are. Funny when he sticks with Jay Bruce or Drew Stubbs, I don't see comments like this from you, I wonder why.

He didnt take him out until after Castro. Castro was the winning run. I think Castro was going to be the last batter he faced unless he got him out. Either way it was pretty obvious Dusty was ready for that game to get blown. He only pulled Cordero after he forced across a run with a HBP. The fact that it got that far speaks a ton to me. If this was a one time thing from Cordero it would be one thing. The issue is Dusty has seen Cordero skate by in so many saves yet still let him walk the bases loaded with the middle of the Cubs line up coming up. The fact that he did remove him when he did is not a bonus. The fact that he let him go out there and get the tying run 2 2nd base with 1 out before he pulled him COMBINED with his comments makes me think Dusty is willing to lose a game or put a win at risk if it means the player stays confident. Cordero could have blown that game easily, and the Reds could have easily have lost it. Sorry but bases loaded with 1 out in a 3 run game and the middle of the line up coming up screams for a blown game. We have seen this plenty of times this year. To blow a game like that let alone get it to the point it got to is silly. If you think Dusty had anything remotely close to a quick trigger in that game, you are right we will never agree on this issue.

As for Jay Bruce and Stubbs, its absurd. Bruce struggles against lefty relievers and should be PHed for if there is a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs. Stubbs is the best CF on the roster. Heisey is the best LFer, and Bruce is the best RF. In my opinion staying with those guys has nothing to do with confidence. Its staying with your best 3 outfielders, and even then I'm fine with those guys getting a short leash. There is plenty of situations where they arent the best. Just like when Cordero is busy walking the bases loaded in a 3 run game he needs to be replaced. This isnt about confidence. If these guys cant handle something like that then whats the point of confidence.

Some times winning comes 1B to Dusty. He wants to win but I certainly think he will allow 1A (players trust and all that crap) come first. In the end it doesnt always lead to losses but it does some times. Dusty tries to get players stats like Saves. He tries to get pitchers complete games. He tries to get pitchers wins. Those things back fire. Its a part of his managing style and it might win him more games at times but he also loses games managing that way.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:16 PM
The tying run has reached base in probably 35% of Cordero's career saves, he is always flirting with danger. He had a 3 run lead and got himself into the jam, you give him 1 shot to get out of it. After he got ahead 0-2 on Castro, couldn't put him away, then plunked him, it was time. It's not like Dusty left him in after he hit Castro. I don't see what the big issue is. There are many times coaches have let their closer have bigger meltdowns than CoCo yesterday. Dusty did his job, pulled CoCo before it was too late, Masset came in and did his job, we won.

1 run games and giving up a single is one thing, walking the bases loaded in a 3 run game is another ball game. There is blatantly obvious "he doesnt have it" days and sorry if you dont agree but when your closer who has been living on prayers all year is walking everyone that comes to plate isnt the place for a quick trigger when is it? Never?

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 11:20 PM
He didnt take him out until after Castro. Castro was the winning run. I think Castro was going to be the last batter he faced unless he got him out. Either way it was pretty obvious Dusty was ready for that game to get blown. He only pulled Cordero after he forced across a run with a HBP. The fact that it got that far speaks a ton to me. If this was a one time thing from Cordero it would be one thing. The issue is Dusty has seen Cordero skate by in so many saves yet still let him walk the bases loaded with the middle of the Cubs line up coming up. The fact that he did remove him when he did is not a bonus. The fact that he let him go out there and get the tying run 2 2nd base with 1 out before he pulled him COMBINED with his comments makes me think Dusty is willing to lose a game or put a win at risk if it means the player stays confident. Cordero could have blown that game easily, and the Reds could have easily have lost it. Sorry but bases loaded with 1 out in a 3 run game and the middle of the line up coming up screams for a blown game. We have seen this plenty of times this year. To blow a game like that let alone get it to the point it got to is silly. If you think Dusty had anything remotely close to a quick trigger in that game, you are right we will never agree on this issue.

As for Jay Bruce and Stubbs, its absurd. Bruce struggles against lefty relievers and should be PHed for if there is a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs. Stubbs is the best CF on the roster. Heisey is the best LFer, and Bruce is the best RF. In my opinion staying with those guys has nothing to do with confidence. Its staying with your best 3 outfielders, and even then I'm fine with those guys getting a short leash. There is plenty of situations where they arent the best. Just like when Cordero is busy walking the bases loaded in a 3 run game he needs to be replaced. This isnt about confidence. If these guys cant handle something like that then whats the point of confidence.

Some times winning comes 1B to Dusty. He wants to win but I certainly think he will allow 1A (players trust and all that crap) come first. In the end it doesnt always lead to losses but it does some times. Dusty tries to get players stats like Saves. He tries to get pitchers complete games. He tries to get pitchers wins. Those things back fire. Its a part of his managing style and it might win him more games at times but he also loses games managing that way.

Would you rather have Dusty come out and say "my closer is a piece of trash and sucks", would that make you respect Dusty? Regardless of what the guy thinks he WILL NOT throw a player of his under the bus, which is a huge reason why players play hard for him and respect him greatly, and that is a big reason why we are where we are.

This post just screams I hate Dusty and he will never do anything right.

Would you rather grumpy Sweet Lou who will come out and toss his players under the bus?

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Would you rather have Dusty come out and say "my closer is a piece of trash and sucks", would that make you respect Dusty? Regardless of what the guy thinks he WILL NOT throw a player of his under the bus, which is a huge reason why players play hard for him and respect him greatly, and that is a big reason why we are where we are.

This post just screams I hate Dusty and he will never do anything right.

Would you rather grumpy Sweet Lou who will come out and toss his players under the bus?

No I dont expect dusty to come out and say that and it would be foolish. I do suspect Dusty is going to keep going to Cordero no matter what if its a save situation. You know why? Because he has said this, and he has given him the ball every time its a save situation no matter the circumstances.

I think Dusty being Mr. Counting stats does gain him some wins, but its also going to cost him games.

Griffey012
08-09-2010, 12:10 AM
No I dont expect dusty to come out and say that and it would be foolish. I do suspect Dusty is going to keep going to Cordero no matter what if its a save situation. You know why? Because he has said this, and he has given him the ball every time its a save situation no matter the circumstances.

I think Dusty being Mr. Counting stats does gain him some wins, but its also going to cost him games.

He has a confidence and trust in all of his players to perform their roles and succeed. That is why he does not hesitate to plug in Cairo for Rolen, or Nix for an outfielder. He has no problem bringing in rookies out of the pen. He builds a trust with his players and counts on them to do their job. And for the most part all season, everyone has done their jobs.

I fully expect him to continue to go to CoCo, but his leash keeps getting shorter. Early in the season CoCo would have remained in the game to fully blow the save. Dusty is managing for the division, for the playoffs, for a WS title, and for an extension. He is not that worried about a player getting another save, he knows too much about the game for that.

GIDP
08-09-2010, 12:15 AM
I guess we just have to disagree. I think Dusty showed us how long that leash is.

RedsFanInBama
08-09-2010, 12:23 AM
I don't think Dusty continuing to go to his closer in save situations is any different than any other manager in baseball. That's what managers do. They put in their closers in save situations. Cordero is this team's closer. Like it or not (and most of us don't) he is being paid a lot and for this reason he is going to remain the closer.

As to whether Dusty waited to long to take him out, I give him credit for doing it at all. Lots of managers don't do that, period. They hand the ball to their closer and tell him it's his game and don't even have anyone ready.

I honestly think his patience for Coco has dwindled and dwindled to the point where he will be more quickly removed from games in the future if he struggles. That's two games in a row now that we had our bullpen up and running with Cordero on trying to save the game.

I've resigned myself to the fact that Cordero is going to be the guy that gets run out there in closing situations and I'm not even putting it on Dusty as much as others. I think Cordero's role has been defined by the suits as much as anyone. It's unfortunate, but when your payroll is $68 million and one guy is getting $12 million of that, he is not going to be pitching the sixth or seventh inning.

davereds24
08-09-2010, 02:44 AM
Lets just hope this last game getting pulled helps Cordero in the future. Maybe it will help him get his stuff together and come out of the pen more focused. There's really no reason to hate him, like Bama said he's going to be the closer.

texasdave
08-09-2010, 09:34 AM
This team needs Cordero to be an effective closer but he has been dodging bullets all season long. I, personally, would change his role. Dusty won't. Let's hope Cordero repays Dusty big-time for sticking with him. We are trying to win a division here.

davereds24
09-01-2010, 10:29 PM
Time to give Coco some credit. Price made a small adjustment and he hasn't walked anyone in 7 appearances.

Jr's Boy
09-01-2010, 11:42 PM
Time to give Coco some credit. Price made a small adjustment and he hasn't walked anyone in 7 appearances.

Exactly.Price is earning every check.Thom on the game tonight was talking how Johnny Cueto literally hugged Price after showing him some adjustments.

Vottomatic
09-02-2010, 06:38 AM
For now, I hope he has turned it around, and give him some credit. He sure seems better.

Hanover
09-02-2010, 10:26 AM
Cordero's last 7 apps:

8 IP, 5 Hits, 0 Runs, 1 BB, 7 SO

ThornWithin81
09-02-2010, 10:42 AM
Cordero's last 7 apps:

8 IP, 5 Hits, 0 Runs, 1 BB, 7 SO

Very nice. He still seems hittable to me but at the very least he isn't walking guys. That goes a long way with CoCo.

GIDP
09-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Cordero has been much better lately because hes not bouncing every 2-2 pitch in the dirt. Hes getting strike outs more.

Wiggidy
09-02-2010, 03:15 PM
Cordero is a great pitcher. He loses focus every now and then but he gets the job done most of the time.

davereds24
09-02-2010, 03:20 PM
he's not getting more K's, just more contact instead of walks.