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TRF
05-06-2010, 02:43 PM
This is Freese's rookie year. At age 27. And so far he's a ROY candidate, all due respect to Heyward, Freese is having nearly as good a year. Going to be a close vote if they both keep playing like this.

Frazier is off to a slow start this year, but he's always been a solid hitter. He's only 24, and though its been said he has no position, I'm thinking he's likely destined for 3B, a position that seems taken for the next three years. Which could see him taking the position at age... 27. Frazier made his professional debut two years younger than Freese, and he's at AAA two years younger than Freese was, so Frazier still has room to grow a bit more.

Freese isn't spectacular with the glove. The best compliment I've heard about Frazier is he is solid at 3B and LF which I take to mean he won't kill you there. Similar to Freese.

So if this is the real David Freese, I hope Frazier can match him. Of course as a Reds fan, I kinda hope Freese falls apart. :)

HokieRed
05-06-2010, 04:09 PM
ROY might well be Leake.

Scrap Irony
05-06-2010, 04:11 PM
Two things:

1) This isn't the real David Freese. (Or he's found some amazing product that makes him a far better player than he ever has been.)

2) Frazier is a better player than David Freese.

GIDP
05-06-2010, 04:11 PM
Only 20 some games into the season. Cueto was a Cy young winner before the all star break.

TRF
05-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Two things:

1) This isn't the real David Freese. (Or he's found some amazing product that makes him a far better player than he ever has been.)

2) Frazier is a better player than David Freese.

Freese has a career .916 OPS in the minors, and in 187 AAA games, .905.

I'd take that.

camisadelgolf
05-06-2010, 04:50 PM
I might not be in the majority on this, but right now, I'd have to say that Frazier is a future left fielder.

TRF
05-06-2010, 04:54 PM
I might not be in the majority on this, but right now, I'd have to say that Frazier is a future left fielder.

He could be, but there is no other options on the near horizon at the minor league level for 3B except maybe Sutton. JF, maybe, but i doubt it. I see him as more of a LF than Frazier. And thank god Valaika is hitting or we'd hear about Frazier at 2B again.

LincolnparkRed
05-06-2010, 05:20 PM
He could be, but there is no other options on the near horizon at the minor league level for 3B except maybe Sutton. JF, maybe, but i doubt it. I see him as more of a LF than Frazier. And thank god Valaika is hitting or we'd hear about Frazier at 2B again.

I had noticed that finally stopped. Too bad we have a hot dog currently manning second and now possibly leading off. Guess that is better than batting cleanup.

TRF
05-06-2010, 05:36 PM
Freese might not be the hitter he was in the minors, but until he proves he isn't, the Cardinals are looking awfully smart right now.

Will M
05-06-2010, 07:18 PM
I might not be in the majority on this, but right now, I'd have to say that Frazier is a future left fielder.

Frazier has been a disappointment this year. he was supposed to be an .800 OPS bat who could play LF/3B/maybe 2B. The Reds are starting Gomes & Nix in LF because Frazier can't hit his weight in AAA.

mth123
05-06-2010, 08:06 PM
Two things:

1) This isn't the real David Freese. (Or he's found some amazing product that makes him a far better player than he ever has been.)

2) Frazier is a better player than David Freese.

Never got all the love for Frazier. He hasn't put up an .850 OPS since low A and he can't find a defensive position (despite all the protests we hear to the contrary). The love on "the lists" comes from the fallacy that he is a future every day 2B in the big leagues. He may spot there (and every where else) but he won't play that spot on a daily basis on a good team. Freese is older, but his low of an .855 OPS at High A, is higher than anything Frazier has done since Dayton. Frazier will be a pretty good role player who plugs a lot of holes with a competent bat, but he isn't really a middle of the order threat IMO.

Scrap Irony
05-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Having looked at Freese's minor league numbers again (apparently for the first time), all I can say is:

whoops

I was wrong.

mdccclxix
05-06-2010, 09:25 PM
Frazier will be a pretty good role player who plugs a lot of holes with a competent bat, but he isn't really a middle of the order threat IMO.

I agree with this for the most part. He's definitely not a .175 hitter, but he's got to show me a whole lot from here on out. If he's not on the 25 man next year at least, then IMO he's only got a shot at being that late call up guy, 28 years old or something. Not really what you like to see from your BA#1 prospect.

fearofpopvol1
05-06-2010, 09:39 PM
I think Frazier will wind up at 2B. His bat will be most valuable there and he can play defensively at least average, maybe a tick above. Whether that's with the Reds or not, I'm not sure.

mth123
05-06-2010, 10:02 PM
I think Frazier will wind up at 2B. His bat will be most valuable there and he can play defensively at least average, maybe a tick above. Whether that's with the Reds or not, I'm not sure.

Where does this info come from? Seems pretty awful so far.

GIDP
05-06-2010, 10:34 PM
Where does this info come from? Seems pretty awful so far.

How about where does your info come from? We have heard and read from plenty of places that say he can play 3rd, 2nd, and LF.

mth123
05-06-2010, 10:51 PM
How about where does your info come from? We have heard and read from plenty of places that say he can play 3rd, 2nd, and LF.

He was horrid at 2B last year. He hasn't played enough at 3B to show he can do it every day and LF is basically a fall back position. Being "able to play" a spot and being able to play every day at the spot are much different things. Ryan Freel could play 2B, but nobody would want him there every day. When I hear, "can play 2B" that is what I think of when a guy hasn't really done it successfully on a daily basis. EdE can play 3B, but we've seen what he does out there every day. Frazier is at AAA and hasn't really proven to be a guy who can play every day at any spot at this point.

I think too many on here have taken "can play there" and read into it what they want it to mean. I think Frazier can be pretty darn valuable as a guy who moves around from 2B to 3B to SS to 1B and to the OF and getting 400+ PAs in the process, but I just won't believe he can be an every day guy at any of them until he actually does that.

GIDP
05-06-2010, 10:59 PM
For someone who ask "Where does this info come from? Seems pretty awful so far." Your info seems to be coming from no where other than what you think.

Do we know how good he is at those positions? Not really but did anyone really know how good Jay Bruce was at RF before he got the call to the majors? No. We had an idea, we heard reports, but we didnt have anything special. From the reports I have read I heard he can play 3rd fine, and he could play 2nd as well. Not a GG 2nd but yes he could play there and be valuable.

mth123
05-06-2010, 11:05 PM
For someone who ask "Where does this info come from? Seems pretty awful so far." Your info seems to be coming from no where other than what you think.

Do we know how good he is at those positions? Not really but did anyone really know how good Jay Bruce was at RF before he got the call to the majors? No. We had an idea, we heard reports, but we didnt have anything special. From the reports I have read I heard he can play 3rd fine, and he could play 2nd as well. Not a GG 2nd but yes he could play there and be valuable.

Why isn't he playing 2B now? If his future is there, when does he actually start playing the spot?

GIDP
05-06-2010, 11:23 PM
Why isn't he playing 2B now? If his future is there, when does he actually start playing the spot?

Jay Bruce didnt play much RF in the minors. Maybe his future is where ever we need him. I think the future right now is utility until a spot on the major league roster opens up. Mean while in AAA they have, Francisco, Valaika, Sutton, Cozart all of who are IF players. I think its a numbers game. Do any of those guys Bats project to be an OF bat? I dont think so. Francisco is the only one and we all know what a lot of us knock him for.

Its not like he hasnt played games at 3rd. Hes played 4 this year there, 3 at 1st and 12 in left. It could be as simple as they want him in left because thats his easiest path to the majors right now and he needs the experience.

I can see why you might question his ultimate role but to say "seems pretty awful" when really basing it off zero is about the same as if I said "seems like an MVP"

mth123
05-06-2010, 11:30 PM
Jay Bruce didnt play much RF in the minors. Maybe his future is where ever we need him. I think the future right now is utility until a spot on the major league roster opens up. Mean while in AAA they have, Francisco, Valaika, Sutton, Cozart all of who are IF players. I think its a numbers game. Do any of those guys Bats project to be an OF bat? I dont think so. Francisco is the only one and we all know what a lot of us knock him for.

Its not like he hasnt played games at 3rd. Hes played 4 this year there, 3 at 1st and 12 in left. It could be as simple as they want him in left because thats his easiest path to the majors right now and he needs the experience.

I can see why you might question his ultimate role but to say "seems pretty awful" when really basing it off zero is about the same as if I said "seems like an MVP"

Not basing on zero. Basing on last year when he played 2B and was, well, pretty awful. So awful that the Reds seem to have determined its not worth a further look in 2010. I'd think a team giving him a look and him being poor there followed up by no additional look is better evidence than some lists put together by guys who only watch these guys in passing.

GIDP
05-06-2010, 11:41 PM
He's "pretty much amazing" in LF considering how much they play him there. Now im basing it off the sole fact that he has a lot of games played there. I really dont know if hes good there or not. Just like you really dont know if hes good at any other positions either. Maybe he wont be playing 2nd with the big club because of all our depth there. Do you really know or is it just because of what you think their intentions are?

I'm clearly open to the possibility that he isnt a major league 2nd baseman, and I dont think he really will be honestly, but I'm not opening and shutting the door just because he isnt playing there every day. Im certainly not going to suggest that hes "pretty much awful" just based off that info.

mth123
05-06-2010, 11:51 PM
He's "pretty much amazing" in LF considering how much they play him there. Now im basing it off the sole fact that he has a lot of games played there. I really dont know if hes good there or not. Just like you really dont know if hes good at any other positions either. Maybe he wont be playing 2nd with the big club because of all our depth there. Do you really know or is it just because of what you think their intentions are?

I'm clearly open to the possibility that he isnt a major league 2nd baseman, and I dont think he really will be honestly, but I'm not opening and shutting the door just because he isnt playing there every day. Im certainly not going to suggest that hes "pretty much awful" just based off that info.

Well, major league teams make priorities of the prospects that they think can make an impact. Aroldis Chapman comes along and a pretty decent guy like Matt Klinker gets pushed back to AA in favor of a bigger priority. If Frazier was really the team's top prospect and 2B was in his future, he'd be playing there now and Valaika would be the guy moving around.

And there is no question that his performance defensively at 2B in 2009 was poor. That isn't based on anything other than what actually occurred. There is no evidence that he will be able to play there every day at the major league level.

So, I still have to ask, based on him being poor there in 2009 and not playing there in 2010, how can anyone say he'll be average or a little better defensively as a major league second baseman?

fearofpopvol1
05-07-2010, 12:15 AM
Where does this info come from? Seems pretty awful so far.

I had read from some scouting reports that he was just fine at 2B. I've not watched him there, but I'm guessing based on your responses that you haven't either. Just because the Reds aren't playing him there doesn't mean he can't play the position. Clearly, the Reds won't him to be a "utility" guy...but I think he'd be best served at 2B. Guy came up as a SS...I think he can play 2B.

Kingspoint
05-07-2010, 12:25 AM
Right now it's looking like Leake.

If Leake wins 15 games, it's all but his award.

mth123
05-07-2010, 12:27 AM
I had read from some scouting reports that he was just fine at 2B. I've not watched him there, but I'm guessing based on your responses that you haven't either. Just because the Reds aren't playing him there doesn't mean he can't play the position. Clearly, the Reds won't him to be a "utility" guy...but I think he'd be best served at 2B. Guy came up as a SS...I think he can play 2B.

Came up as a SS is some reason to think so. He made a number of misplays in his audition last year and it was passed off as getting used to the position. I guess I think if that is all it was he'd get more work there to overcome that problem. I think he can play there for the same reason that you do. He came up as a SS. But almost everybody has some SS in their background at some point. Kevin Mitchell, Eric Davis etc. Frazier stuck there long enough that I'd think some time at 2B is not out of the question. I just think ability to spot in at a position is a lot different than holding down that spot every day where the defensive weaknesses of a guy accumulate on the pitching staff. I just don't see how anyone (even those guys writing those reports) can say he's a future 2B on an every day basis until he actually plays 2B on an every day basis. I really don't see how anyone can say average to above average defensively. If you said, get by on his bat while putting up with a poor glove and hoping he improves (kinda like EdE) I'd probably be more likely to agree. Same goes for 3B really.

dougdirt
05-07-2010, 12:42 AM
Todd Frazier isn't ready to play 2B in the majors at all right now.

Kingspoint
05-07-2010, 02:06 AM
Todd Frazier isn't ready to play 2B in the majors at all right now.

He'll be the 2012 starter at 2nd Base.

That's his timeline.

bucksfan2
05-07-2010, 08:50 AM
Came up as a SS is some reason to think so. He made a number of misplays in his audition last year and it was passed off as getting used to the position. I guess I think if that is all it was he'd get more work there to overcome that problem. I think he can play there for the same reason that you do. He came up as a SS. But almost everybody has some SS in their background at some point. Kevin Mitchell, Eric Davis etc. Frazier stuck there long enough that I'd think some time at 2B is not out of the question. I just think ability to spot in at a position is a lot different than holding down that spot every day where the defensive weaknesses of a guy accumulate on the pitching staff. I just don't see how anyone (even those guys writing those reports) can say he's a future 2B on an every day basis until he actually plays 2B on an every day basis. I really don't see how anyone can say average to above average defensively. If you said, get by on his bat while putting up with a poor glove and hoping he improves (kinda like EdE) I'd probably be more likely to agree. Same goes for 3B really.

You do tend to put your best players at SS and CF in amateur baseball. Its just the way things work out. I do think Frazier getting another 3 years of experience at SS while playing at Rutgers will help him defensively at another position. It wasn't like he played SS in HS and then was shifted off the position right away in the minors.

FWIW I think playing 2b is much easier than playing 3b. At 2b you can play deeper, even more so if you have a strong arm, have much more time to react to balls. At 3b its more of a one step position. You have to have a very quick first step because often that is how long you get to get to a ball. Watching Rolen is a perfect example of that. He may not be the fastest player on the field but I would be surprised if anyone has a quicker first step than he does.

I do think Frazier will wind up at 2b in the future. I think the Reds should be looking to move Phillips in a trade and Frazier should step in and provide overall the same production. I think the Future LF is Alonso and I think a 3b prospect is still in the works. I do think this organization is going to run Rolen out there as their starting 3b until the day he can no longer play.

HokieRed
05-07-2010, 08:59 AM
I don't think it will be a question of running Rolen out there. It will be that he's not going to give up the position and there's nobody who's going to be able to take it. Also, if Todd Frazier is at 2b, in 2012 or whenever, will there be a bigger player at the position anywhere in the major leagues? While some aspects of playing 2b may seem easier than 3b, it's not just ground balls that are what's involved. A good 2b has to have much greater range on pop flies and the ability, of course, to get to the base quickly on steals and double plays. There's a reason 2bs typically are not as big as Todd Frazier.

GIDP
05-07-2010, 09:39 AM
While not being at 2nd Troy Tulowitzki is just as big. I dont know if anyone expects Frazier to be a GG at 2nd if he ends up playing there. Its just a case where his bat will make up for some of his D failings. Thats at least how I look at it.

In a perfect world he would be playing 3rd with out a doubt though in my eyes.

TRF
05-07-2010, 09:44 AM
He'll be the 2012 starter at 2nd Base.

That's his timeline.

Not if Valaika keeps hitting. The job is his unless he loses it.