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Homer Bailey
05-13-2010, 02:50 PM
According to Ben Badler:


BenBadler #Reds promote 1B/LF Yonder Alonso to Triple-A Louisville

www.twitter.com/benbadler

http://twitter.com/BenBadler/status/13925912335

GOYA
05-13-2010, 02:57 PM
Yep and Dorn is officially on the DL.

Will M
05-13-2010, 03:29 PM
Yep and Dorn is officially on the DL.

what happened to Dorn?

Tom Servo
05-13-2010, 03:31 PM
Any idea if the plan is for him to remain there the rest of the year?

OnBaseMachine
05-13-2010, 03:32 PM
Hopefully he can go on a tear and either fetch the Reds a good player in a trade or come up and fill the Reds left field role.

Reds Freak
05-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Hopefully he can go on a tear and either fetch the Reds a good player in a trade or come up and fill the Reds left field role.

Has he been playing in left field at AA or first base?

dougdirt
05-13-2010, 03:36 PM
Has he been playing in left field at AA or first base?

Both.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 03:38 PM
Was kinda surprised he was down at AA to start the year but I always felt it was more because of playing time than anything.

krm1580
05-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Hopefully he can go on a tear and either fetch the Reds a good player in a trade or come up and fill the Reds left field role.

I would love to see them flip him for someone like a Michael Taylor who is really struggling in AAA for Oakland. Right handed power corner OF prospect would be a perfect fit.

GOYA
05-13-2010, 03:48 PM
what happened to Dorn?

HBP - broken bone in his hand

GIDP
05-13-2010, 03:50 PM
I would love to see them flip him for someone like a Michael Taylor who is really struggling in AAA for Oakland. Right handed power corner OF prospect would be a perfect fit.

Or a free agent to be Cliff Lee. Not a real target just a name that fits my example.

HokieRed
05-13-2010, 03:57 PM
I would love to see the org. keep Yonder Alonso as the best possible candidate to take over 1b after Joey Votto's departure b/c the Reds cannot afford to lose the payroll flex caused by paying what Votto will legitimately ask for. Don't misunderstand: I'd love to keep Votto, but I think it's highly unlikely. Therefore all the "trade Alonso" sentiment just risks opening up another hole to fill a couple of years down the road.

HBP
05-13-2010, 04:02 PM
HBP - broken bone in his hand

No, I'm OK.

aubashbrother
05-13-2010, 04:06 PM
im guessing Frazier and Alonso will alternate between 1st and LF in AAA ?

GIDP
05-13-2010, 04:07 PM
im guessing Frazier and Alonso will alternate between 1st and LF in AAA ?

Francisco is out also so Frazier will probably get time at 3rd as well.

GOYA
05-13-2010, 04:19 PM
I doubt Frazier will see much time at 1B with Yonder here.

And I hope Yonder drives fast. I'll be at the Bats game tonight.

jmcclain19
05-13-2010, 04:23 PM
Interesting - hopefully it lights a fire under Yonder. The Reds need some LF help.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 04:33 PM
Alonso will get the majority of his playing time in left field.

“Same as Carolina,” Reynolds said. “He’ll play some first but mostly left.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/13/more-on-alonso-to-triple-a/

bubbachunk
05-13-2010, 04:56 PM
Alonso will get the majority of his playing time in left field.

“Same as Carolina,” Reynolds said. “He’ll play some first but mostly left.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/13/more-on-alonso-to-triple-a/

Awesome, they are still grooming him for LF. Now he just needs to mash so he can be called up mid summer

Kingspoint
05-13-2010, 04:59 PM
Now, it's just a short drive for anyone who wants to go see Alonso play Left Field.

Hopefully, he's in Left Field "that night" after you make the drive to Louisville.

GOYA
05-13-2010, 05:10 PM
Well hell, I guess Frazier is a 1B for a while.

Anyone know if Terrero has played any 1B?

aubashbrother
05-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Looking at Baseball Reference all I see is all 3 OF spots and DH for Terrero thru Minors and Majors

OnBaseMachine
05-13-2010, 05:24 PM
Alonso will get the majority of his playing time in left field.

“Same as Carolina,” Reynolds said. “He’ll play some first but mostly left.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/13/more-on-alonso-to-triple-a/

Good to hear.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 05:25 PM
I would love to see the org. keep Yonder Alonso as the best possible candidate to take over 1b after Joey Votto's departure b/c the Reds cannot afford to lose the payroll flex caused by paying what Votto will legitimately ask for. Don't misunderstand: I'd love to keep Votto, but I think it's highly unlikely. Therefore all the "trade Alonso" sentiment just risks opening up another hole to fill a couple of years down the road.
Pack up the franchise and give up then. If you produce an all around great player without a big hole in his game, you need to find a way to keep him. It's not easy for a team like the Reds to get ahold of those players, and any team with aspirations of winning it all has to have a couple of those players. The Reds need more Joey Vottos, not less.

As for Alonso, I find this move surprising because he wasn't exactly tearing it up. Hopefully he does a little better at Louisville. If he was able to come up and produce some big numbers in the mid summer, or be moved for somebody that could, that would be a big shot in the arm for this team, and probably put us on the same level if not above the Cardinals.

dougdirt
05-13-2010, 05:30 PM
Pack up the franchise and give up then. If you produce an all around great player without a big hole in his game, you need to find a way to keep him. It's not easy for a team like the Reds to get ahold of those players, and any team with aspirations of winning it all has to have a couple of those players. The Reds need more Joey Vottos, not less.

As for Alonso, I find this move surprising because he wasn't exactly tearing it up. Hopefully he does a little better at Louisville. If he was able to come up and produce some big numbers in the mid summer, or be moved for somebody that could, that would be a big shot in the arm for this team, and probably put us on the same level if not above the Cardinals.

As for Votto - If he keeps OPS'ing .975, the Reds aren't going to pay him 18+ Million a year that its going to take to keep him no matter how much they may want to do that.

As for Alonso.... he hit two balls to the wall last week. Two balls that go five more feet and the guy has an .890 OPS. He isn't exactly struggling.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 05:32 PM
As for Votto - If he keeps OPS'ing .975, the Reds aren't going to pay him 18+ Million a year that its going to take to keep him no matter how much they may want to do that.

As for Alonso.... he hit two balls to the wall last week. Two balls that go five more feet and the guy has an .890 OPS. He isn't exactly struggling.
Hopefully the Reds have the sense to lock him up before his price tag reaches that huge number, and have fostered enough goodwill where Votto would be willing to work with them to fit in the budget.

HokieRed
05-13-2010, 05:32 PM
Pack up the franchise and give up then. If you produce an all around great player without a big hole in his game, you need to find a way to keep him. It's not easy for a team like the Reds to get ahold of those players, and any team with aspirations of winning it all has to have a couple of those players. The Reds need more Joey Vottos, not less.

As for Alonso, I find this move surprising because he wasn't exactly tearing it up. Hopefully he does a little better at Louisville. If he was able to come up and produce some big numbers in the mid summer, or be moved for somebody that could, that would be a big shot in the arm for this team, and probably put us on the same level if not above the Cardinals.

Possible scenario the FO will have to confront: Is it worth paying Votto 20 million a year over 6 years for the difference between him and Alonso? That's not going to be an easy question, and I don't think the figure for Votto is inflated at all.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 05:35 PM
Possible scenario the FO will have to confront: Is it worth paying Votto 20 million a year over 6 years for the difference between him and Alonso? That's not going to be an easy question, and I don't think the figure for Votto is inflated at all.

Yea some times the Reds have to run the team more like the Marlins even if everyone dislikes it.

big contracts kill teams like the Reds when they dont work out, and still severely handicap them when they do.

Lockdwn11
05-13-2010, 05:38 PM
As for Votto - If he keeps OPS'ing .975, the Reds aren't going to pay him 18+ Million a year that its going to take to keep him no matter how much they may want to do that.

As for Alonso.... he hit two balls to the wall last week. Two balls that go five more feet and the guy has an .890 OPS. He isn't exactly struggling.

I don't think it would take 18+ million if the Reds would lock him up now.

JKam
05-13-2010, 05:38 PM
For all this talk about Alonso's defense in LF, could it possibly be worse than Gomes?

dougdirt
05-13-2010, 05:40 PM
I don't think it would take 18+ million if the Reds would lock him up now.

Lock him up for arbitration, no. Lock him up post arbitration? I can't really say, but I do know that guys who OPS .975 consistently get paid that much.

medford
05-13-2010, 05:41 PM
Sign me up for the camp that hopes Votto is signed long term. W/ Arroyo & Harang due to come off payroll at the end of this year (assuming they decline the options on them) and Phillips & Coco on the last year of thier deals next season, the Reds should have some room in the buget to sign Votto long term. Aside from Bruce, there are no other bats in the organization due long term contract any time soon. Perhaps signing Votto long term means you can't extend Phillips long term (assuming he'd want to), but if you've got to pick and choose going forward, I'm stickign w/ Votto and hoping Frazier or Valiaka can fill the void at 2nd. On the pitching side, Volquez, Cueto & Bailey will force their hand on whom to sign long term and who to move or let go at some point, but the hopefully effectiveness of Chapman, leake, Wood and others should allow them to pick 1 or 2 of the "older" three and remain w/ a lower payroll going forward.

medford
05-13-2010, 05:54 PM
Lock him up for arbitration, no. Lock him up post arbitration? I can't really say, but I do know that guys who OPS .975 consistently get paid that much.

I would think the plan would be to "overpay" him for some of those arbitratin years, so that you can "underpay" him for his post arbitration years and trade a little contract secruity for the unknown that he could fall off the table the next couple of seasons and be worth less than a millon on the open market (not likely but its just the extreme example)

A lot of it depends on how Joey feels about it. Either way, they guy is going to get paid. Would he be happy signing a 6 year, $80 mil deal w/ the Reds today, or is he the type that is intent to getting to free agency as quickly as possible unless the Reds throw $20 mil+ a season at him? Considerring his issues last year, and the support system in Centerville, does he give the Reds more lee-way for playing in a familar, comfortable environment in an organization that appears to have a very solid young nucleaus? Or perhaps he'd like nothign more than to sign w/ toronto in the future, or perhaps he doesn't care where he lives, he wants that big contract. Only Joey can answer that right now, but the Reds would be foolish to not at least be having discussion with his agent, attempting to at least gleam what his desires are. If they match up, great. If not, hopefully Yonder gives them another option for a left handed masher at 1st.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 06:02 PM
Possible scenario the FO will have to confront: Is it worth paying Votto 20 million a year over 6 years for the difference between him and Alonso? That's not going to be an easy question, and I don't think the figure for Votto is inflated at all.
Honestly, I think it is. I know Votto is good, and in my opinion, probably better than Ryan Howard. But Ryan Howard got his 20+ millions a year all because he got that round number of 50 home runs, and brought a ring to a huge city, high profile team such as the Phils.

Pujols will get his because he's historically good and has been so for a better part of this decade.

Joey is good, but he doesn't have the eye popping, glamour stats that Howard has, nor has he been an all time great for almost 10 years. He'll hit over .300, get on base somewhere near .400, and hit his 30 home runs. I think on the open market, which is looking to flooded by 1B such as Adrian Gonzalez or Carlos Pena going to big market teams within the next couple years that would otherwise be paying the big dollars, Votto will get somehere around 13-15 million. We paid that much to Dunn for a good handful of years, and will be paying Brandon Phillips around that much next year.

I think the team can and should hand out that kind of contract to a Joey Votto type player.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 06:07 PM
Possible scenario the FO will have to confront: Is it worth paying Votto 20 million a year over 6 years for the difference between him and Alonso? That's not going to be an easy question, and I don't think the figure for Votto is inflated at all.
As far as the difference in the players, honestly, I think it would be worth it to pay Votto. We know how good Votto is now. The odds are Alonso having a good major league career are extremely high as with all prospects, let alone becoming a Votto type player. But the point is, even if he does, we need them both to reach the main goal, that is, winning a title.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 06:26 PM
If Joey Votto OPS .950+ for the next 4 years just watch and see all the press he gets.

Griffey012
05-13-2010, 06:30 PM
This Louisville lineup is going to be absolutely stacked with good prospects. Should be very fun to watch for Reds fans who get a chance.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2010, 06:33 PM
I'm rooting for Alonso as a LF. The reports about his defense have been better than expected, and I love his OBP.

But I'm rooting even more for Votto to get a long-term deal. If he's not a core player, I don't know what one is.

HokieRed
05-13-2010, 06:40 PM
I certainly consider Votto a core player for as long as he's here, but I think the estimates given here are way too low, unless the whole market collapses due to the economy and general bad attendance. Seems to me a lot of the speculation here is based on undervaluing Votto. For instance, who would pay up for Carlos Pena rather than Votto? My assumption is that Votto is playing himself into a group that includes Howard, Fielder, and Gonzalez, a group just one move down from Pujols. What did Howard get? Would you really rather have Howard than Votto?

jmcclain19
05-13-2010, 06:42 PM
Well lets confine the "Should the Reds sign Votto" talk elsewhere boys & girls.

Alonso's path to the majors has been staked out and laid forth for him, with no hurdles blocking the path.

The question is - does he treat AAA pitching like a bull in a china shop and force the Reds hand? Or does he answer with a whimper?

Time will tell, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 06:44 PM
I have no links or anything proving that I actually read these things but I saw somewhere that Yonder isnt awful in left. Seems to take good routes and has an accurate arm. I dont know much more than that.

osuceltic
05-13-2010, 07:01 PM
As for Alonso.... he hit two balls to the wall last week. Two balls that go five more feet and the guy has an .890 OPS. He isn't exactly struggling.

I hate these kinds of statements. We don't discount the wall-scrapers or the seeing-eye grounders with "a few inches the other way ... " Everyone has warning track outs. If we're going to start to give credit for those, we have to give the same credit to everyone. Then the "average" OPS creeps up and that imaginary .890 doesn't mean as much anyway.

He is what he is at this point. If you want to make the argument it's a small sample, that's fine. Recovering from injury? Fine. But this "two balls go five more feet and he has an .890 OPS" stuff is ridiculous.

GIDP
05-13-2010, 07:06 PM
I think the statement is to mean that 2 balls can change how people view him. It actually is a lot similar to our Jay Bruce arguments over the last year. We see things and it makes our judgment of the guy not as bad. Similar to when we see a guy batting .360 we tend to discount it a little bit.

Its a way of judging the situation better. Doesnt mean he should be viewed at a .890 guy but it does put it in a little perspective.

Griffey012
05-13-2010, 07:10 PM
I hate these kinds of statements. We don't discount the wall-scrapers or the seeing-eye grounders with "a few inches the other way ... " Everyone has warning track outs. If we're going to start to give credit for those, we have to give the same credit to everyone. Then the "average" OPS creeps up and that imaginary .890 doesn't mean as much anyway.

He is what he is at this point. If you want to make the argument it's a small sample, that's fine. Recovering from injury? Fine. But this "two balls go five more feet and he has an .890 OPS" stuff is ridiculous.

Late in the season, it doesn't matter, but this early in the season it is just a way to show the effect of a small sample size. Now if at the end of the season Alonso doesn't have a higher OPS, there are no excuses about warning track outs and what not.

dougdirt
05-13-2010, 07:15 PM
I hate these kinds of statements. We don't discount the wall-scrapers or the seeing-eye grounders with "a few inches the other way ... " Everyone has warning track outs. If we're going to start to give credit for those, we have to give the same credit to everyone. Then the "average" OPS creeps up and that imaginary .890 doesn't mean as much anyway.

He is what he is at this point. If you want to make the argument it's a small sample, that's fine. Recovering from injury? Fine. But this "two balls go five more feet and he has an .890 OPS" stuff is ridiculous.

Its also a fact that his power isn't 100% right now and the wrist injury is still affecting his numbers and that a fully healthy Yonder Alonso is going to provide better overall numbers because of it. Holding him back because his OPS isn't as good as you would like isn't always looking at the situation correctly. Alonso is doing all that he should be asked to do, and when he is back at 100%, its going to show.

Will M
05-13-2010, 07:44 PM
HBP - broken bone in his hand

thanks.

Dorn is a guy who the organization doesn't think much of & may get very limited opportunities to prove himself in the bigs. being out 6-8 weeks with a broken hand doesn't help.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 07:48 PM
If Joey Votto OPS .950+ for the next 4 years just watch and see all the press he gets.
I don't know. Cincinnati is no Philly. Who had a guy here for awhile who did just that, and he didn't really get a ton of press.

Will M
05-13-2010, 07:50 PM
Well lets confine the "Should the Reds sign Votto" talk elsewhere boys & girls.

Alonso's path to the majors has been staked out and laid forth for him, with no hurdles blocking the path.

The question is - does he treat AAA pitching like a bull in a china shop and force the Reds hand? Or does he answer with a whimper?

Time will tell, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

A #1 draft pick two years ago is a Gomes/Nix platoon away from the bigs.
IMO if Alonso can't help the team this year then you begin to seriously question whether the team made a mistake with the pick. i understand he is just 23 years old but if he can't crack the bigs at age 23 his chances of being a future All Star seem a bit remote. not saying it couldn't happen. just saying late bloomers who become All Stars are a bit rare.

kbrake
05-13-2010, 08:28 PM
Anyone have any details on how Alonso has done in LF so far this year?

Mario-Rijo
05-13-2010, 08:34 PM
I certainly consider Votto a core player for as long as he's here, but I think the estimates given here are way too low, unless the whole market collapses due to the economy and general bad attendance. Seems to me a lot of the speculation here is based on undervaluing Votto. For instance, who would pay up for Carlos Pena rather than Votto? My assumption is that Votto is playing himself into a group that includes Howard, Fielder, and Gonzalez, a group just one move down from Pujols. What did Howard get? Would you really rather have Howard than Votto?

I disagree with you, power is the premium those guys are getting paid for and Votto has yet to top 30 HR's. Sure the smart sabermetric using teams will appreciate him just as much if not more but there are few of those teams and even less who aren't gonna want a deal because the rest of baseball isn't madly pursuing. And again that's why you lock him up sooner rather than later. He'll be 27 in september and this will be his 1st arb. eligible season. Which means we already have control of him until he's 30. I don't see many teams giving a 30 year old 1st baseman with less than 30 HR's a season 20 million a year. Especially when he is doing his damage in GABP. Sign him up after this year or next for 6 years @ 12-15 million per and I don't see how he can turn it down.

It's not like Alonso isn't gonna ask for the stars at some point so might as well take the bird in the hand.

jmcclain19
05-13-2010, 08:38 PM
Alonso actually has pretty close #s to newly promoted Mets 1B Ike Davis.

I've been bagging on his power but to be fair, he's on par with Davis who is not a bad player at all.

Whether or not you want those numbers from the #7 overall pick is a different argument, but if he can figure out a way to churn out that niche, that's a useful piece to the Reds.

UPRedsFan
05-13-2010, 08:44 PM
Understand the argument about being 23 already, but he did have the injury that slowed his progress significantly. If he's not 100% give him another year before you pronounce him not worthy of being an all star caliber player.

Caveat Emperor
05-13-2010, 09:33 PM
Alonso actually has pretty close #s to newly promoted Mets 1B Ike Davis.

I've been bagging on his power but to be fair, he's on par with Davis who is not a bad player at all.

Whether or not you want those numbers from the #7 overall pick is a different argument, but if he can figure out a way to churn out that niche, that's a useful piece to the Reds.

This.

And, let's be honest, the Reds aren't getting tremendous / irreplaceable production from Left Field right now as it is (offensively or defensively). If Alonso can hit reasonably well and field reasonably well, there will be a spot on the major league lineup card for him in fairly short order.

Will M
05-13-2010, 10:10 PM
Understand the argument about being 23 already, but he did have the injury that slowed his progress significantly. If he's not 100% give him another year before you pronounce him not worthy of being an all star caliber player.

fair enough.

mattfeet
05-13-2010, 10:11 PM
Alonso was hitting .267/.388/.406 at Double-A Carolina.
He'll continue to play both left field and first base at Louisville.


Good deal.


-Matt

_Sir_Charles_
05-13-2010, 10:25 PM
Anyone have any details on how Alonso has done in LF so far this year?

I've seen this question posed several times over the past few weeks and I haven't seen an answer anywhere. I'm sure I could've overlooked it, but regardless...anybody have a first-hand account of how he's played defense in the outfield up to now?

Will M
05-13-2010, 10:32 PM
I've seen this question posed several times over the past few weeks and I haven't seen an answer anywhere. I'm sure I could've overlooked it, but regardless...anybody have a first-hand account of how he's played defense in the outfield up to now?


it seems like we have a couple of guys (GOYA comes to mind) who watch the Bats games nightly. nobody i know of watches the AA games every night. so hopefully GOYA & others can fairly quickly give the rest of the board an assessment of Alonso's defensive ability in LF.

1990REDS
05-13-2010, 10:59 PM
Anyone know if his glove work is improving or not? I know that has always been a big question about him.

berryluther
05-13-2010, 11:08 PM
Promoting or Showcasing?

I think he will be the key to any deal Walt makes.

TC81190
05-13-2010, 11:10 PM
I've seen this question posed several times over the past few weeks and I haven't seen an answer anywhere. I'm sure I could've overlooked it, but regardless...anybody have a first-hand account of how he's played defense in the outfield up to now?
I'd like to know this as well, it's not like we're getting killer D out there other than when Nix is in the game. I think Joey Votto is probably a good comparison to what Alonso's upside is, so if we could get another player in the lineup capable of those numbers, we'd be looking good. Which isn't to say Gomes hasn't been playing well as of late, if they could push him to the bench and get better numbers in the lineup, they would be better overall.

Alonso actually has pretty close #s to newly promoted Mets 1B Ike Davis.

I've been bagging on his power but to be fair, he's on par with Davis who is not a bad player at all.

Whether or not you want those numbers from the #7 overall pick is a different argument, but if he can figure out a way to churn out that niche, that's a useful piece to the Reds.
The numbers aren't exactly eye popping, but I haven't been disappointed with the pick at all. I think he will develop into an above average player offensively and has had overall good numbers in the minors. The only reason he hasn't lately is because of that hamate injury, which is completely understandable and a legit reason for less than 100% production.

It's not like Drew Stubbs anyway, where the excuses about his numbers always pertained to the league or parks he was playing in or they were changing his swing or something. He needed a lot of adjustments. Alonso will be fine as is once his hand is 100%.

OnBaseMachine
05-14-2010, 12:41 AM
From John Fay's blog:



“I just saw him,” Reynolds said. “His average isn’t extremely high. But he’s not getting a lot of pitches to hit. I think he’ll hit better at Triple-A. They were pitching around him a lot at Carolina. He got a little impatient at times. I don’t think you’ll see that at Triple-A.”



Reynolds said Alonso been solid in the outfield.

“He catches everything that’s to him,” Reynolds said. “His arm is fine out there. He’s worked hard at it.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/05/13/more-on-alonso-to-triple-a/

OnBaseMachine
05-14-2010, 12:55 AM
From C. Trent's website:


Bats manager Rick Sweet had been playing a juggling act with his lineup for much of this season, having several players play in multiple positions. However, with Dorn's injury and Juan Francisco's recent emergency appendectomy, the lineup has settled into a routine, Reynolds said.

"The main goal is to get guys in a position so they can contribute here," Reynolds said. "Alonso's going to be his left fielder for the most part and Frazer his third baseman."


http://cnati.com/cincinnati-reds/alonso-promoted-to-class-aaa-001961/

GOYA
05-14-2010, 01:33 AM
And where is Francisco going to play?

BTW, Alonso played 1B tonight and did well.

GIDP
05-14-2010, 01:38 AM
Probably going to sound like a jerk but there is a forum for this stuff.

jmcclain19
05-14-2010, 03:26 AM
Reynolds has had pretty sound judgement raising the Reds farm hands the last few years - Looking at Baseball America rate the Reds as one of the best farm systems in the last 3 years reminds me how many good players have churned thru the system on his watch.

If he's on board and saying good things about the LF transformation, I'll take it.

GIDP
05-14-2010, 03:41 AM
And where is Francisco going to play?

BTW, Alonso played 1B tonight and did well.

Francisco is going to play recovering on the DL postion for the next month.

klw
05-14-2010, 08:01 AM
"He catches everything that’s to him,” Reynolds said. “His arm is fine out there. He’s worked hard at it.”
Damning with faint praise perhaps. ;) Another way to read this is that he has no range and his arm is nothing special and he has had to work hard to get to this level. The summary of him being solid in the field is a lot more promising however.

Degenerate39
05-14-2010, 11:28 AM
Is Frazier on the 40 man roster?

GIDP
05-14-2010, 11:29 AM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=cin

No he is not.

camisadelgolf
05-14-2010, 11:45 AM
Is Frazier on the 40 man roster?
It's pretty much guaranteed that he will be no later than December.

BLEEDS
05-14-2010, 01:02 PM
Promoting or Showcasing?

I think he will be the key to any deal Walt makes.

I think you hit it on the head.

That line in AA isn't "promotion worthy". I think Walt is ready to cash this totally redundant chip in.

I personally will be hoping he succeeds!

Although he is WAY too much to give up for David DeJesus, I would totally send Alonso to KC for DJ and Alex Gordon!


PEACE

-BLEEDS

GIDP
05-14-2010, 01:08 PM
The reason he got promoted is because Francisco, and Dorn both are out for at least a month.

Degenerate39
05-14-2010, 01:15 PM
So this September we'll probably see Alonso but no Frazier. I wouldn't mind Alonso getting alot of playing time come Sept.

GIDP
05-14-2010, 01:21 PM
So this September we'll probably see Alonso but no Frazier. I wouldn't mind Alonso getting alot of playing time come Sept.

If they have to put Frazier on next year I wouldnt be surprised if they just took Cairo off the roster.

BLEEDS
05-14-2010, 01:25 PM
Hopefully he can go on a tear and either fetch the Reds a good player in a trade or come up and fill the Reds left field role.

DING DING DING!!!

I think Walt is showcasing him, and would rather trade him than put a Dunn-Lite in LF for the Big Club.
Alonso's future in ML is at DH IMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
05-14-2010, 01:28 PM
I disagree with you, power is the premium those guys are getting paid for and Votto has yet to top 30 HR's. Sure the smart sabermetric using teams will appreciate him just as much if not more but there are few of those teams and even less who aren't gonna want a deal because the rest of baseball isn't madly pursuing. And again that's why you lock him up sooner rather than later.

This!



He'll be 27 in september and this will be his 1st arb. eligible season. Which means we already have control of him until he's 30. I don't see many teams giving a 30 year old 1st baseman with less than 30 HR's a season 20 million a year. Especially when he is doing his damage in GABP. Sign him up after this year or next for 6 years @ 12-15 million per and I don't see how he can turn it down.

It's not like Alonso isn't gonna ask for the stars at some point so might as well take the bird in the hand.

and This!


I say an acceptable contract would be more like Evan Longoria than Ryan Howard.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

HokieRed
05-14-2010, 02:09 PM
Acceptable to us or even the FO doesn't matter. Acceptable to Votto is what matters. Votto is already a much better player than Carlos Pena, to whom he was compared earlier in the thread. OPS for Votto .929, average OPS+ of 140, whereas Pena, now 32, is at .851 and 124. He's better than Gonzalez as well, who is at .866 and 134; and he's very close to Howard, who will, incidentally, be 31 this November (if age is relevant, as it is, in these valuations). Howard is at .953 and 141. Votto may very well sign with the Reds now or next year for a multi-year deal, but I think that, in market terms, he may very well be unwise to do so. The Gonzalez contract is probably a good one to watch for comps.

thatcoolguy_22
05-14-2010, 02:23 PM
I say an acceptable contract would be more like Evan Longoria than Ryan Howard.

Except Longoria's contract was given about a week after he became a major league player. Not to mention from a player's perspective, his contract is one of the worst contracts ever signed. 9 years (including all club options) for 44 million? On the open market with Longoria averaging a 6 WAR a year, he would be worth 240-270 million dollars (depending on your win value). Votto would be a fool to sign something similar.

However I like the Alonso promotion. From everything I have read, the hamate bone saps power for almost a year. As long as Alonso is reaching base with a beasty OBP and maintaining a solid LD% I think he will be fine. Judging current talent on an injury plagued year off of power numbers alone, can be sketchy at best.

With Alonso signing a major league contract how many years can he stay in the minors before the Reds must promote him?

Pony Boy
05-14-2010, 02:26 PM
DING DING DING!!!

I think Walt is showcasing him, and would rather trade him than put a Dunn-Lite in LF for the Big Club.
Alonso's future in ML is at DH IMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

If their only interest is in showcasing him for a trade then why not just play him at 1B? I think there is a very good chance that they are doing what they say they are doing; grooming him to be the LF of the future. I hope so.

nemesis
05-14-2010, 02:37 PM
The team we would match up the best with in a trade for Alonso is Tampa. Pena is streaky at best and is getting a little long in the Tooth. Plus you never what kinda season you are getting from him year to year. They have a plethora of legit prospects throughout their system except at first base. Would they take a package built around Alonso, Stubbs and Francisco for Jennings and Beckham? Jennings is an OBP monster who would solve alot of problems at the top of the Reds Batting order. It also give the Rays a long term, inexpensive 6 year fix at 1B and DH with Alonso becoming a draw with his ties in Florida and the Cuban community.

It gives the Reds a upgrade over Rojas at SS in High A and give the Reds Flexibility and time to develop one of DiDi, Hamilton, Arias (who I heard may end up at 3B) or Valor.

dougdirt
05-14-2010, 02:48 PM
The team we would match up the best with in a trade for Alonso is Tampa. Pena is streaky at best and is getting a little long in the Tooth. Plus you never what kinda season you are getting from him year to year. They have a plethora of legit prospects throughout their system except at first base. Would they take a package built around Alonso, Stubbs and Francisco for Jennings and Beckham? Jennings is an OBP monster who would solve alot of problems at the top of the Reds Batting order. It also give the Rays a long term, inexpensive 6 year fix at 1B and DH with Alonso becoming a draw with his ties in Florida and the Cuban community.

It gives the Reds a upgrade over Rojas at SS in High A and give the Reds Flexibility and time to develop one of DiDi, Hamilton, Arias (who I heard may end up at 3B) or Valor.

I would make that deal. A lot more for Jennings than Beckham. Beckham is not quite impressing anyone these days, offensively or defensively.

flyer85
05-14-2010, 02:54 PM
Anyone know if his glove work is improving or not? I know that has always been a big question about him.his main problem is that he just isn't very athletic. He is a 1b, which desn't mean they won't play him in LF.

The Reds have stockpiled prospects(Francisco, Frazier, Alonso) at a few positions. A couple of them need to be flipped.

nemesis
05-14-2010, 03:21 PM
I would make that deal. A lot more for Jennings than Beckham. Beckham is not quite impressing anyone these days, offensively or defensively.

I hadn't been keeping tabs on Beckham at all. Wow. A .151 BA? 30 Ks in 86 AB's with a .279 SLG... I'd still take a flyer on him. Put him in Dayton in the OF and see if he could be salvaged.

I'd really like to see a deal made for Jennings. It just fits. Tampa has a pretty deep outfield. They just signed Zorbist to a long term deal. I can't see them letting Crawford leave being their all time Franchise player. Especially since he'd probably end up in Boston. Upton is an Enigma but is still only 25. Hard to see them letting him go as well. Plus they have Ruggiano who has been in AAA it seems forever and Joyce if he could ever get healthy as well for Depth.

I know it'll never be but it nice to dream.

GIDP
05-14-2010, 03:43 PM
Personally id rather go straight for a major league player. Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Carl Crawford.

Not that those guys are likely to be traded, well other than Cliff Lee, but id rather go for a major league guy instead of the other way, but this is hypothetical land.

RiverRat13
05-14-2010, 03:55 PM
I can't see Tampa trading Jennings. Upton is struggling again this year and Crawford will be a free agent.

dougdirt
05-14-2010, 04:08 PM
I can't see Tampa trading Jennings. Upton is struggling again this year and Crawford will be a free agent.

I don't think they will trade him either, but if they were....I would certainly make the deal.

nemesis
05-14-2010, 04:52 PM
I can't see Tampa trading Jennings. Upton is struggling again this year and Crawford will be a free agent.

Do you really think they will let Crawford walk? I can't see it. Especially since Boston and NY will probably be his biggest suitors.

Benihana
05-14-2010, 06:25 PM
The team we would match up the best with in a trade for Alonso is Tampa. Pena is streaky at best and is getting a little long in the Tooth. Plus you never what kinda season you are getting from him year to year. They have a plethora of legit prospects throughout their system except at first base. Would they take a package built around Alonso, Stubbs and Francisco for Jennings and Beckham? Jennings is an OBP monster who would solve alot of problems at the top of the Reds Batting order. It also give the Rays a long term, inexpensive 6 year fix at 1B and DH with Alonso becoming a draw with his ties in Florida and the Cuban community.

It gives the Reds a upgrade over Rojas at SS in High A and give the Reds Flexibility and time to develop one of DiDi, Hamilton, Arias (who I heard may end up at 3B) or Valor.

I would make that deal too, but I would try to rope Brignac in any deal with Tampa.

blumj
05-16-2010, 12:21 PM
Do you really think they will let Crawford walk? I can't see it. Especially since Boston and NY will probably be his biggest suitors.
He's as good as already gone. The Rays are not going to outbid the Yankees for him, the Red Sox can't even do that.

vottofan4life
05-16-2010, 12:36 PM
I think Zach Grienke, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Carlos Quentin and Fausto Carmona are guys we need to be looking at around the trade deadline..

Look next year this team is most likely not going to have harang and arroyo...and honestly i think aroldis chapman should be brought up just the way like how neftali feliz in Texas so we do not rush him a long and he can help the bullpen when they trade away cordero...

Mike Leake is either going to be the ace or number 2 starter next year followed by homer bailey and johnny cueto...Hoping that edinson comes back to the form he was in before and maybe even better that would turn out to be a pretty good damn rotation...

Acquiring Zach Grienke would put us over the top for sure because of his dominance...i cant really think of a package that we could put together right now to get him but our farm system is one of the best in baseball so i know we have the pieces to get him...maybe put it around Yonder Alonso or Matt Klinker....

Cliff Lee is the interesting one though...he can become a free agent at the end of the year and if he hits the open market i think the red sox will probably snatch him so i mean he is an interesting asset to a team but could a contract be worked out?

Benihana
05-16-2010, 01:23 PM
I think Zach Grienke, Cliff Lee, Grady Sizemore, Carlos Quentin and Fausto Carmona are guys we need to be looking at around the trade deadline..

Look next year this team is most likely not going to have harang and arroyo...and honestly i think aroldis chapman should be brought up just the way like how neftali feliz in Texas so we do not rush him a long and he can help the bullpen when they trade away cordero...

If they are going to be buyers, why would they trade away Cordero?


Mike Leake is either going to be the ace or number 2 starter next year followed by homer bailey and johnny cueto...Hoping that edinson comes back to the form he was in before and maybe even better that would turn out to be a pretty good damn rotation...

Acquiring Zach Grienke would put us over the top for sure because of his dominance...i cant really think of a package that we could put together right now to get him but our farm system is one of the best in baseball so i know we have the pieces to get him...maybe put it around Yonder Alonso or Matt Klinker....

Cliff Lee is the interesting one though...he can become a free agent at the end of the year and if he hits the open market i think the red sox will probably snatch him so i mean he is an interesting asset to a team but could a contract be worked out?

I like the idea of trading for an ace, but Greinke isn't going anywhere. Neither is Sizemore. Lee could be dealt if the M's are out of contention, but he would clearly be a two month rental. I'd deal for him only if he was the one missing piece the Reds truly felt they needed. I'm not sure how much Fausto Carmona could add to this rotation.

GOYA
05-16-2010, 01:51 PM
If they are going to be buyers, why would they trade away Cordero?

Because he's not worth his salary?

dougdirt
05-16-2010, 01:56 PM
Because he's not worth his salary?

Sure, but do the Reds believe that? I bet they think he is clearly worth it all.

_Sir_Charles_
05-16-2010, 01:59 PM
Because he's not worth his salary?

I'll agree that he's probably overpaid...but go back and remember our bullpen issues BEFORE he arrived. I'd be happy if Coco stayed for the entire length of his contract.

fearofpopvol1
06-05-2010, 11:35 PM
Things haven't looked so good for Alonso in Louisville.

Tony Cloninger
06-06-2010, 09:17 AM
If the Reds think they are contenders they are not going to trade Cordero even if he is overpaid to some. Think about it.....it's not like Cordero is John Wetteland and they have Mariano Rivera waiting to take over.

Benihana
06-06-2010, 11:24 AM
Things haven't looked so good for Alonso in Louisville.

I'm willing to wait out the season on Alonso. If he still has a sub-.800 OPS by season's end, I'll start to be pretty concerned. Ditto for Todd Frazier.

For the first time in a long time, I don't think the Reds have any "Grade B" prospects. There is Aroldis Chapman and then a bunch of guys barely on the fringe of the Top 100.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm willing to wait out the season on Alonso. If he still has a sub-.800 OPS by season's end, I'll start to be pretty concerned. Ditto for Todd Frazier.

For the first time in a long time, I don't think the Reds have any "Grade B" prospects. There is Aroldis Chapman and then a bunch of guys barely on the fringe of the Top 100.
Todd Frazier and Yonder Alonso are both recovering from Injuries. I think a little unfair to label them as fringe prospects. They were top 100, and producing less than a year ago.

Benihana
06-06-2010, 11:37 AM
Todd Frazier and Yonder Alonso are both recovering from Injuries. I think a little unfair to label them as fringe prospects. They were top 100, and producing less than a year ago.

I didn't say they were fringe prospects, but they are most definitely on the fringe (and probably out) of the Top 100 at this point. Being 23/24 years old and posting a sub-.700 OPS for more than 2 months of a minor league season will chip away at your value. especially when you still don't have a set defensive position to play.

Alonso injured his hand 12 months ago. I know it takes a while to come back from a hammate injury, but he has been playing since August. If anything, it could take a while to regain one's power from such an injury, but he still has a sub-.300 OBP. The injury is no longer a legitimate excuse.

NeilHamburger
06-06-2010, 12:32 PM
In terms of Reds prospects it's also important to note that 99.9% of the time Mike Leake would still be a prospect, but he's an exception.

Really, if things went on their normal path the Reds would have 2 of the top 20 prospects in baseball in Leake and Chapman. Hell, a case could be made that they would've had 2 of the top 10 prospects in baseball.

mth123
06-06-2010, 12:57 PM
I'm willing to wait out the season on Alonso. If he still has a sub-.800 OPS by season's end, I'll start to be pretty concerned. Ditto for Todd Frazier.

For the first time in a long time, I don't think the Reds have any "Grade B" prospects. There is Aroldis Chapman and then a bunch of guys barely on the fringe of the Top 100.

The Reds have three prospects who look to possibly be better than the guys playing their position in the major leagues - Chapman, Mesoraco and Cozart. All the others are useful role player types and the Reds should be willing to package as many as necessary to upgrade the big league roster.

HokieRed
06-06-2010, 04:40 PM
The Reds have three prospects who look to possibly be better than the guys playing their position in the major leagues - Chapman, Mesoraco and Cozart. All the others are useful role player types and the Reds should be willing to package as many as necessary to upgrade the big league roster.


I think Dave Sappelt, CF for Carolina, has a claim to be on this list. His 23 year old numbers so far are .367/.395/.533/ .929 with 0 E's in 33 games. 15 K's in 120 AB's 15/6 K to W, 11 of 16 SB's. Since I have been and am a big fan of Drew Stubbbs, I don't really think Sappelt will be a better player than Stubbs, but in all fairness, to Sappelt, I think he's got a pretty good claim to being considered for the list here.

dougdirt
06-06-2010, 04:45 PM
I think Dave Sappelt, CF for Carolina, has a claim to be on this list. His 23 year old numbers so far are .367/.395/.533/ .929 with 0 E's in 33 games. 15 K's in 120 AB's 15/6 K to W, 11 of 16 SB's. Since I have been and am a big fan of Drew Stubbbs, I don't really think Sappelt will be a better player than Stubbs, but in all fairness, to Sappelt, I think he's got a pretty good claim to being considered for the list here.

Sappelt has had an interesting season. 77 PA in A+ resulted in a .690 OPS. 130 in AA has resulted in a .922 OPS.

HokieRed
06-06-2010, 05:23 PM
Sappelt has had an interesting season. 77 PA in A+ resulted in a .690 OPS. 130 in AA has resulted in a .922 OPS.

He really seems to have caught on in AA. I hope it's for real, fear it may not be. Anyway, as you say, it's interesting. He's worth watching.

dougdirt
06-06-2010, 05:28 PM
He really seems to have caught on in AA. I hope it's for real, fear it may not be. Anyway, as you say, it's interesting. He's worth watching.

It's not entirely real, his BABIP is over .400. But he has really cut down the strikeout rate from where it was in Lynchburg. His BABIP will generally be high, the guy is pretty darn fast. So long as he keeps his strikeout rate where it is now, around the 11-12% range, he should be a solid prospect given the defense he also brings.

fearofpopvol1
06-06-2010, 05:49 PM
Sappelt has had an interesting season. 77 PA in A+ resulted in a .690 OPS. 130 in AA has resulted in a .922 OPS.

Doesn't Lynchburg suppress power?

dougdirt
06-06-2010, 05:53 PM
Doesn't Lynchburg suppress power?

Suppresses HR's, boosts doubles.

Benihana
06-06-2010, 07:22 PM
The Reds have three prospects who look to possibly be better than the guys playing their position in the major leagues - Chapman, Mesoraco and Cozart. All the others are useful role player types and the Reds should be willing to package as many as necessary to upgrade the big league roster.

I would mostly agree with this assessment, although Mesoraco and Cozart will both have to put up good numbers (better than their career averages) at their respective levels before they could be considered true Top 100 prospects. I do think Mesoraco is closer than Cozart to making that list, but Mesoraco has really only had 150 ABs of success, and almost 800 ABs of mediocrity.

Point is, our #2-#6 prospects on Opening Day have all had incredibly disappointing starts to the year. That said, the debut of Mike Leake probably makes up for all of it.

dougdirt
06-06-2010, 10:43 PM
I would mostly agree with this assessment, although Mesoraco and Cozart will both have to put up good numbers (better than their career averages) at their respective levels before they could be considered true Top 100 prospects. I do think Mesoraco is closer than Cozart to making that list, but Mesoraco has really only had 150 ABs of success, and almost 800 ABs of mediocrity.

Point is, our #2-#6 prospects on Opening Day have all had incredibly disappointing starts to the year. That said, the debut of Mike Leake probably makes up for all of it.

I think that is pushing it a little on Mesoraco. He has been a little Drew Stubbs like, with his ups and downs. May and July of 2008, he had an OPS of .801 and .875. June and August were .641 and .573. May-July last year were all over .700 and in the FSL, thats a success for a catcher at age 20/21. However it was bookended by a .494 and .594 April and August.

Benihana
06-06-2010, 11:29 PM
I think that is pushing it a little on Mesoraco. He has been a little Drew Stubbs like, with his ups and downs. May and July of 2008, he had an OPS of .801 and .875. June and August were .641 and .573. May-July last year were all over .700 and in the FSL, thats a success for a catcher at age 20/21. However it was bookended by a .494 and .594 April and August.

And I'm not sure what this shows other than that baseball is a game of streaks. :confused:

GIDP
06-06-2010, 11:32 PM
Its certainly not normal to see month long slumps and month long hot streaks.

dougdirt
06-07-2010, 12:04 AM
And I'm not sure what this shows other than that baseball is a game of streaks. :confused:

It shows that Mesoraco hasn't had 'just 150 good at bats'.

Kingspoint
06-07-2010, 12:25 AM
What's so odd about Alonso is he's struggling against Right-handers at AAA. He's doing fine against Left-handers.

mdccclxix
06-07-2010, 12:59 AM
It's my impression that Alonso is a hard worker and very self directed. With cohorts such as A Rod, and with a list of accolades and accomplishments, he has to be confident. I think that will carry him though this year and he'll find success on the other side.

In the meantime, I wonder about what his coaches are telling him to do, what to work on as far as approach. Organizationally, in the past players have been told to hit with gusto, but that comes and goes. Is he struggling with adapting to an organizational philosophy of some kind? Anybody with some insight on Alonso this year? I know he was promoted, in part, because they felt he was being pitched around in AA. That was supposed to lead to more pitches to hit in AAA...

GIDP
06-07-2010, 09:26 AM
It's my impression that Alonso is a hard worker and very self directed. With cohorts such as A Rod, and with a list of accolades and accomplishments, he has to be confident. I think that will carry him though this year and he'll find success on the other side.

In the meantime, I wonder about what his coaches are telling him to do, what to work on as far as approach. Organizationally, in the past players have been told to hit with gusto, but that comes and goes. Is he struggling with adapting to an organizational philosophy of some kind? Anybody with some insight on Alonso this year? I know he was promoted, in part, because they felt he was being pitched around in AA. That was supposed to lead to more pitches to hit in AAA...

He is lacking his power right now. Lets say he hits a a couple warning track shots a little farther and go over the wall, his slugging would rise .80 points.

Honestly I think his hand injury is still a problem and its making some shots not go as far, and making his line drives turn into grounders.

Thats my basic assessment of the situation.

Joseph
06-10-2010, 10:11 PM
I saw Yonder the other day and he hit a home run and a couple fly balls. How is he over all in terms of LD% and such? Is he not hitting well or is he hitting unlucky? Will he go back to AA when Dorn is back?

powersackers
06-14-2010, 03:53 AM
I saw Yonder the other day and he hit a home run and a couple fly balls. How is he over all in terms of LD% and such? Is he not hitting well or is he hitting unlucky? Will he go back to AA when Dorn is back?

He's got a .299 OBP. That has nothing to do with line drives or power. The injury either messed with him more than any of us know or he really is losing his baseball acumen.

The names he might bring back in trade now would be minimal. Same for Frazier. 2010 is a waste for both of them, with very little signs of improvement.

Mario-Rijo
06-14-2010, 06:18 AM
I saw Yonder the other day and he hit a home run and a couple fly balls. How is he over all in terms of LD% and such? Is he not hitting well or is he hitting unlucky? Will he go back to AA when Dorn is back?

Looking at the splits I have to wonder about what he is potentially working on at the plate (or possibly how he is now being pitched) because his LD% is way down and his GB% is way up, which is leading to a lower than normal BABIP. This same trend tends to occur but to a much greater degree when he faces LHP's. In other words I don't believe it is luck heavy in his case he is being attacked in such a way that he needs to make an adjustment or he is in the midst of making an adjustment that he is not yet comfortable with. For the record I would think it's the former.

2009
340 PA's
.292/.374/.464 .838 OPS
.318 BABIP
33.1% GB, 27.1% LD, 39.8% FB
K/BB - 46/41

2010
250 PA's
.251/.340/.374 .714 OPS
.282 BABIP
47.7% GB, 14.8% LD, 37.5% FB
K/BB 38/28

He's striking out a smidge more but nothing that isn't farely normal procession as he moves up the ladder, nothing even remotely alarming there. His walks aren't down much either so not any reason for alarm there. So to me it's simple they have found a way to get him to hit it on the ground at a much higher rate. And his numbers reflect a slow to mediocre footed runner hitting the ball on the ground nearly half the time he makes contact.

The only question is what the opposition's approach now is. Well we know that historically Yonder is the type to go the other way so you wouldn't think he has had a spike in trying to pull the outside pitch. So what other reasons would one who is a LD hitter to starts putting the ball on the ground consistently? Tough to say without seeing him myself lately but I'd guess lefties are still keeping the slider down & away on him and he is topping that pitch where he probably needs to lay off of it when he can. But that isn't really new. What I think is happening is both righties and lefties have been keeping the ball in on him early and often and he has yet to really start pulling the ball effectively in that situation. Hard stuff in early and often, breaking stuff away on the rare occasion they go away. And you get those numbers above along with this one last stat '09 7.8 IF/F%, '10 15.2 IF/F%.

Certainly it's just a guess but the numbers tell you the problem which is he can't keep the ball off the ground which is killing him, Sean Casey style.

HokieRed
06-14-2010, 10:25 AM
Worth noting Yonder's stats have taken a turn for the better over the last four games. Small sample size, of course, but I'd think an increase in ground balls over LD's could be the result of continuing lack of full strength from the injury and more skilled, experienced pitching. He'll adjust.

dougdirt
06-14-2010, 12:59 PM
He's got a .299 OBP. That has nothing to do with line drives or power. The injury either messed with him more than any of us know or he really is losing his baseball acumen.

The names he might bring back in trade now would be minimal. Same for Frazier. 2010 is a waste for both of them, with very little signs of improvement.

His .299 OBP has a lot to do with power. Not all of it, but some of it. Hits count for OBP too and power certainly leads to hits. As for the season being a waste of time for both of them, you are incredibly wrong. You can learn something every day whether you are playing well or not. They are getting experience and learning.

HokieRed
06-14-2010, 03:41 PM
He's got a .299 OBP. That has nothing to do with line drives or power. The injury either messed with him more than any of us know or he really is losing his baseball acumen.

The names he might bring back in trade now would be minimal. Same for Frazier. 2010 is a waste for both of them, with very little signs of improvement.


2010 is less than half over.