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View Full Version : Has there ever been a dumber manager in baseball than Dusty Baker?



OldRed1966
05-14-2010, 10:29 PM
Dusty, Dusty, Dusty. How many games are you going to cost the Reds this year? :(

redsfan_12
05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
He said Ramon was unavailable there. I would like to know why

kfm
05-14-2010, 10:38 PM
I was thinking what is he thinking. I just did not get that move at all. However, during the post game Dusty said Laynce Nix was not available and it was either Janish or Hernandez. As far as the dumbest move, I think Ron Gardenire made the single dumbest move of the night.

Mutaman
05-14-2010, 10:49 PM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.

Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?

OldRed1966
05-14-2010, 10:56 PM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.



Those guys didn't have anywhere close to the talent Dusty has.


Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?


This thread didn't get dumb until your post.

markymark69
05-14-2010, 11:00 PM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.

Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?

You beat me to the punch.

bgwilly31
05-14-2010, 11:23 PM
yeah he said nix was unavailable for a mystery reason.

I would rather see janish there. Worse case scenario in that situation is a double play. and hernadez gives you the best shot at that.

watch the replay. hernandez jogs down the line. and hesitates out of the box.

Pathetic. Im definitely not a hernandez fan. hanigan all the way.

The Voice of IH
05-14-2010, 11:24 PM
sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, it is called sport. sooner we learn that the better we are off.

sivman17
05-14-2010, 11:32 PM
Is it just me, or do we literally question after every single series against the Cards why we continue to pitch to Pujols?

Seriously, walk him every time. I hate that we allow him to beat us every time we play them. Ahhhhh just walk him!!!

Vottomatic
05-15-2010, 03:36 AM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.

Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?

Maybe not a dumber thread, but can we question if the poster is a dumber poster? :confused:

mroby85
05-15-2010, 04:05 AM
Is it just me, or do we literally question after every single series against the Cards why we continue to pitch to Pujols?

Seriously, walk him every time. I hate that we allow him to beat us every time we play them. Ahhhhh just walk him!!!

I could not agree more, when he hit the 2 run HR, all I could think to myself was how many times are they going to let this sorry re-run happen before they finally learn to stop pitching to the guy. I don't care if Matt Holliday beats them, let him try, at least you didn't lose by coming at their best hitter AGAIN. Nearly every loss this year when they've played st. louis has hinged on them challenging pujols, and pujols beating them. Also, when hernandez was sent up to hit before it happened I said this is a perfect prescription for a DP, he hits the ball hard a lot of times, and can't run at all. If you're going to send him up in the situation, can't you at least send Stubbs, and try to get men to 2nd and 3rd? Finally, I wouldve preferred to see Heisey, he was hitting the ball well the last time he was on the field, and has the capability of beating out a DP ball more than Ramon. I realize the options off the bench aren't the best, with Nix, Cairo, and Janish, but come on! Hope they come back ready to play tomorrow!

Vottomatic
05-15-2010, 04:09 AM
I think if they walked Pujols on purpose and then pitched to Holiday successfully, it would frustrate the hell out of St. Louis. You think you've heard whining so far???????? You'd hear it to the extreme if we continue to walk Albert and pitch to Holiday, and he does nothing.

I'd love to see what happens if we did it.

mroby85
05-15-2010, 09:55 AM
I think if they walked Pujols on purpose and then pitched to Holiday successfully, it would frustrate the hell out of St. Louis. You think you've heard whining so far???????? You'd hear it to the extreme if we continue to walk Albert and pitch to Holiday, and he does nothing.

I'd love to see what happens if we did it.

Same here, and even if he did beat me, I'd feel smarter about losing to him as opposed to constantly getting beat by Pujols, there are some guys you just don't let beat you.

bgwilly31
05-15-2010, 10:23 AM
I could not agree more, when he hit the 2 run HR, all I could think to myself was how many times are they going to let this sorry re-run happen before they finally learn to stop pitching to the guy. I don't care if Matt Holliday beats them, let him try, at least you didn't lose by coming at their best hitter AGAIN. Nearly every loss this year when they've played st. louis has hinged on them challenging pujols, and pujols beating them. Also, when hernandez was sent up to hit before it happened I said this is a perfect prescription for a DP, he hits the ball hard a lot of times, and can't run at all. If you're going to send him up in the situation, can't you at least send Stubbs, and try to get men to 2nd and 3rd? Finally, I wouldve preferred to see Heisey, he was hitting the ball well the last time he was on the field, and has the capability of beating out a DP ball more than Ramon. I realize the options off the bench aren't the best, with Nix, Cairo, and Janish, but come on! Hope they come back ready to play tomorrow!


im pretty sure there is all kinds of wrong in your post.

Manager of the year dusty pinch run for hanigan when he got the hit for heisy. (I think) And like was said before nix was unavailable. Cairo had been kicked out of the game. And stealing stubbs from 2nd to 3rd was incorrect. stubbs was on 2nd at the time of the dble play. Heisy was on first.

mroby85
05-15-2010, 01:35 PM
You're right about a lot of that, I was watching the game at applebees, and missed out on quite a bit, I assumed that those guys were on the bench. We already discussed the stubbs stolen base thing in another thread, and sending Heisey in to pinch run was a decision made in the 9th, when they knew the pinch hitter issue would be coming up, but I was wrong about nix, and cairo, didn't know cairo had been tossed, and didn't know nix was unavailable.

malcontent
05-15-2010, 03:27 PM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.

Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?

So the Reds haven't been great at sniffing out managerial talent.

But none of those guys would have hit Taveras/Gonzalez 1/2 for half a season.

There's stupid. Then there's willfully stupid and proud of it.

malcontent
05-15-2010, 03:33 PM
Is it just me, or do we literally question after every single series against the Cards why we continue to pitch to Pujols?

Seriously, walk him every time. I hate that we allow him to beat us every time we play them. Ahhhhh just walk him!!!

Good point. And what exactly does Harang expect to happen when he throws meatballs chest-high to Pujols, or Ludwick for that matter? They got in the jet-stream??? Really, Dude should just clam up after each loss. For his own good.

Jack Burton
05-15-2010, 03:34 PM
To answer the question... no

Caveman Techie
05-15-2010, 03:58 PM
If Dusty wasn't standing in Walt's office last night answering for pitching to Pujlos, then something is wrong with the world. At some point even my dog figures out that if he keeps going on the floor he gets his nose rubbed in it and smacked, but somehow Dusty can't figure out that whenever he pitches to Pujlos he get's beat.

nemesis
05-15-2010, 06:36 PM
Honestly I was more upset over Cairo's worthless AB more so than Hernandez's in the 9th. Although I did look at my girlfriend and tell her I smell DP. (She thought I meant something else...) Cairo brings nothing other than his crafty veternishness... to the club. Dusty gave away an AB I would have much rather seen Heisey, Janish or Owings get. Castillo is clearly the in house answer to a lot of bench issues (plays all 4 IF Positions, Catcher, LF and is a speedy guy for pinch running) and I am sure he can sport an OPS better than .322 doing it... Before Memorial day this has to be sorted out. If Cairo gets one more AB during this series Dusty should be put on notice IMO.

Krawhitham
05-15-2010, 07:26 PM
Yes, Bob Boone, Dave Miley, and Jerry Naron.

Next question: Has there ever been a dumber thread than this one?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70323

Mutaman
05-15-2010, 07:41 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70323

Thanks for the reminder. That was a nice piece of writing.

gedred69
05-16-2010, 02:13 AM
I think if they walked Pujols on purpose and then pitched to Holiday successfully, it would frustrate the hell out of St. Louis. You think you've heard whining so far???????? You'd hear it to the extreme if we continue to walk Albert and pitch to Holiday, and he does nothing.

I'd love to see what happens if we did it.

You got your wish tonight. Hey, whatta you know, it worked!

improbus
05-16-2010, 04:04 PM
Let's give Dusty some credit. He moved Stubbs out of the top (something he wouldn't have done last year), he move Phillips out of the 4 spot, and he walked Pujols twice. Maybe he's starting to turn it around.

arkimadee
05-16-2010, 04:14 PM
Let's give Dusty some credit. He moved Stubbs out of the top (something he wouldn't have done last year), he move Phillips out of the 4 spot, and he walked Pujols twice. Maybe he's starting to turn it around.
And he made a move no one is talking about and put Chris Heisey in Left Field in the ninth of the civil rights game as a defensive replacement. He went on to make an awesome strike to Cabrera and you know what happened from then.

sivman17
05-16-2010, 04:23 PM
Listen, we've all criticized Dusty for his outlandish lineups and bozo decisions throughout the game. But right now he has the Reds atop the division. Give credit where credit is due. Baker has this team playing very well.

arkimadee
05-16-2010, 04:27 PM
It looks like Bakers best move was the meeting after the loss to the Padres about a month ago. The team has been tearing it up since then. They have only lost once series since that time.

sivman17
05-16-2010, 04:29 PM
It looks like Bakers best move was the meeting after the loss to the Padres about a month ago. The team has been tearing it up since then. They have only lost once series since that time.

True. I also think moving B Phil up to 2 and moving Stubbs back has helped a lot. Stubbs had a great series this weekend and has been looking much better at the plate since being moved back.

nemesis
05-16-2010, 07:39 PM
Let's give Dusty some credit. He moved Stubbs out of the top (something he wouldn't have done last year), he move Phillips out of the 4 spot, and he walked Pujols twice. Maybe he's starting to turn it around.

True. But moving Phillips out of the 4 spot is something this board has been calling for since before the beginning of last season. Amazing to me that a bunch of keyboard jockeys figured this out long before the professional. Once he did this team got on a roll. I still would like to see Bruce in the 4 hole and get him some more protection with Rolen behind him, but I'll take it as long as its working.

texasdave
05-16-2010, 07:46 PM
Random interjection:Anyone still miss Edwin Encarnacion? I didn't think so.

BigJohn
05-16-2010, 07:55 PM
or Adam Dunn!

kfm
05-16-2010, 08:03 PM
True. But moving Phillips out of the 4 spot is something this board has been calling for since before the beginning of last season. Amazing to me that a bunch of keyboard jockeys figured this out long before the professional. Once he did this team got on a roll. I still would like to see Bruce in the 4 hole and get him some more protection with Rolen behind him, but I'll take it as long as its working.

True, but let's not gloss over Phillips production at the four spot last year. Not to mention he was replaced in the four spot by a guy who was not on the team last year when people were clamoring to get him out of it at the beginning of the year. Who was going to bat 4th? Bruce, Gomes, Encarnacion??? Not exactly great choices. DUsty's problem this year is a result of some foolish decisions he made in the previous two years. Fans are so angered over previous decisions that he is criticized for moves that many managers around baseball make on a routine basis. I don't think enough reds fans watch other baseball teams to understand how often managers do things that we would all disagree with. So many of us have just decided Dusty is an idiot and hate every decisoin he makes and find a way to not blame a single player for their failure to execute and blame everything on Dusty. He is not a great manager, but he is a very successful one. I will say this about Dusty. I think these players love him and would run through walls for him. If this were Dusty's first year as manager the view of him would be very different. Looking at this year only, he has done a very good job. I doubt this will matter to most, but it should. Having said that, if they lose tomorrow no matter the reason, I already know who will get blamed and who will not.

sivman17
05-16-2010, 08:06 PM
Random interjection:Anyone still miss Edwin Encarnacion? I didn't think so.


or Adam Dunn!


No, but I do miss Austin Kearns. He is playing lights out for the Indians. (although with the way Gomes and Bruce are playing we don't need him)

Vottomatic
05-16-2010, 08:25 PM
If we make it to the playoffs, this team is going to need a #1 starter. Ownership is not going to spend the money and trade for one. That's when I think our hopes and dreams end.

Mariners are struggling. Cliff Lee anyone?

sivman17
05-16-2010, 08:34 PM
If we make it to the playoffs, this team is going to need a #1 starter. Ownership is not going to spend the money and trade for one. That's when I think our hopes and dreams end.

Mariners are struggling. Cliff Lee anyone?

I really think Cueto or Leake could be that guy by the end of the season. Both of these are guys are going to be very verrrry good.

arkimadee
05-16-2010, 08:37 PM
If we make it to the playoffs, this team is going to need a #1 starter. Ownership is not going to spend the money and trade for one. That's when I think our hopes and dreams end.

Mariners are struggling. Cliff Lee anyone?
I don't see us trading for any pitching unless our starters start imploding again like they did at the beginning of the season. If we can continue to go 4-2 and 5-1 each week, I'd say don't try to fix it.. I think another couple of rounds through the rotation will show us what we need to know.

Boston Red
05-16-2010, 08:43 PM
The dumbest manager ever was probably Yogi Berra.

nemesis
05-16-2010, 08:47 PM
I really think Cueto or Leake could be that guy by the end of the season. Both of these are guys are going to be very verrrry good.

Plus if Arroyo does what he does every year after the ASB we will have our #1 going into the playoffs. The pitcher who has to get going is Harang. He is projected to go 9 -23 at this point which isn't to far off his pace for the last two years. I suspect if things continue status quo with him, he will be the one who Volquez replaces in the rotation.

lidspinner
05-16-2010, 09:05 PM
Plus if Arroyo does what he does every year after the ASB we will have our #1 going into the playoffs. The pitcher who has to get going is Harang. He is projected to go 9 -23 at this point which isn't to far off his pace for the last two years. I suspect if things continue status quo with him, he will be the one who Volquez replaces in the rotation.


lets play the role out....when the Reds make the playoffs, and if Aaron is still pitching horrible, what do we do? That will be AH and Mike L that we have to replace if we wanna win. No way the FO lets Dusty ride Leake past August.

Maybe Chapman and Edinson? That sounds good, but only if AC and EV do what we think they can do....Edinson might not be near game ready till next year and Chapman might suck......This team has a ton of what ifs ahead of us but if a few fall in our favor then we could make a serious push.

Mutaman
05-16-2010, 10:31 PM
The dumbest manager ever was probably Yogi Berra.

I can't figure out if you're being facetious or not. Yogi is dumb like a fox (and all the way to the bank). AS a manager, he's one of 7 guys who have won penants in both leagues:

1. Joe McCarthy, Cubs and Yankees
2. Al Dark, Giants and A's
3. Yogi Berra, Yankees and Mets
4. Dick Williams, Red Sox and Padres
5. Sparky Anderson, Reds and Tigers
6. Tony LaRussa, A's and Cardinals
7. Jim Leyland, Marlins and Tigers

Pretty good comapany.
Sparky's the only one to have won championships in both leagues , and Yogi came within 2 games of doing that too.

Red in Atl
05-16-2010, 11:36 PM
Harang, Maloney, Ondrewsek, Lincoln and Dickerson for Oswalt...:)

gedred69
05-17-2010, 12:24 AM
I can't figure out if you're being facetious or not. Yogi is dumb like a fox (and all the way to the bank). AS a manager, he's one of 7 guys who have won penants in both leagues:

1. Joe McCarthy, Cubs and Yankees
2. Al Dark, Giants and A's
3. Yogi Berra, Yankees and Mets
4. Dick Williams, Red Sox and Padres
5. Sparky Anderson, Reds and Tigers
6. Tony LaRussa, A's and Cardinals
7. Jim Leyland, Marlins and Tigers

Pretty good comapany.
Sparky's the only one to have won championships in both leagues , and Yogi came within 2 games of doing that too.

You omit Mr. arrogant LaRussa. Oakland, St. Louis. AL then NL WS Titles.

sivman17
05-17-2010, 12:48 AM
. No way the FO lets Dusty ride Leake past August.


I don't know about that. If he pitches like he has been and we are in contention in August and September you can bet he will be pitching.

Kingspoint
05-17-2010, 04:03 AM
I don't know about that. If he pitches like he has been and we are in contention in August and September you can bet he will be pitching.

Walt's been great about protecting his pitchers. He's not going to let Leake pitch too many innings no matter how well he's pitching.

lidspinner
05-17-2010, 09:57 AM
Walt's been great about protecting his pitchers. He's not going to let Leake pitch too many innings no matter how well he's pitching.


spot on.....Leake is being looked at as a future TOR guy, he kind of is right now...lets wait til the rest of the league has seen him and has tape of him for a year or so.....BUT, as of right now, the FO see' s what we all see, a guy who is looking more and more like Greg Maddux. He is not going past his alloted innings. at least I hope not.

bgwilly31
05-17-2010, 11:48 AM
Random interjection:Anyone still miss Edwin Encarnacion? I didn't think so.

rofl.

Wheres all the EE praisers.

Mr Larkin
05-17-2010, 01:31 PM
yeah he said nix was unavailable for a mystery reason.

I would rather see janish there. Worse case scenario in that situation is a double play. and hernadez gives you the best shot at that.

watch the replay. hernandez jogs down the line. and hesitates out of the box.

Pathetic. Im definitely not a hernandez fan. hanigan all the way.

Who cares who you would rather see there? You are not the manager. Lay off Dusty - the team is winning. They are now in first place. No need to continue to crucify former two time manager of the year Dusty Baker.

Caveman Techie
05-17-2010, 01:59 PM
Who cares who you would rather see there? You are not the manager. Lay off Dusty - the team is winning. They are now in first place. No need to continue to crucify former two time manager of the year Dusty Baker.

Ok, I got to take issue here, we are allowed to question the managers moves. Heck that is one of the things that makes this game fun!

I've usually given Dusty the benefit of the doubt on this forumn, but on Friday who in their right mind did not see the homerun coming from Albert Pujlos? As soon as he came up to the plate I'm saying "walk him". When they started pitching to him, my wife thought I was nuts cause I was screaming at the TV "NOOOO! WALK HIM!". And sure enough King Albert plants one in the seats for a 2 run homer. Which BTW ended up being the difference in the game.

nemesis
05-17-2010, 02:12 PM
spot on.....Leake is being looked at as a future TOR guy, he kind of is right now...lets wait til the rest of the league has seen him and has tape of him for a year or so.....BUT, as of right now, the FO see' s what we all see, a guy who is looking more and more like Greg Maddux. He is not going past his allotted innings. at least I hope not.

I don't get the Maddox comparisons. First off Maddox was a fastball heavy pitcher for most of his career. Maddox sat in the 92 - 95 range on that fastball for most the early part of his career. Leake is a Sinker - Curve - Changeup guy... His fastball sits 88 to 91 MPH. Not quite Maddox like. He profiles much, much closer to Mussina or Hudson.

Also Innings shouldn't be a factor. Number of pitches should. I wouldn't let him eclipse 2800 pitches this year. Next year 3200. After that he should be fine to throw whatever. Although I am curious to see how and when his dead arm period hits him and what kind of drop in his stuff we see. I might shut him down 3 starts, DL him and bring Maloney up and let him recharge over that three week period. Might buy us an extra start or two in September.

texasdave
05-17-2010, 02:17 PM
I don't get the Maddox comparisons. First off Maddox was a fastball heavy pitcher for most of his career. Maddox sat in the 92 - 95 range on that fastball for most the early part of his career. Leake is a Sinker - Curve - Changeup guy... His fastball sits 88 to 91 MPH. Not quite Maddox like. He profiles much, much closer to Mussina or Hudson.

Also Innings shouldn't be a factor. Number of pitches should. I wouldn't let him eclipse 2800 pitches this year. Next year 3200. After that he should be fine to throw whatever. Although I am curious to see how and when his dead arm period hits him and what kind of drop in his stuff we see. I might shut him down 3 starts, DL him and bring Maloney up and let him recharge over that three week period. Might buy us an extra start or two in September.

Interesting. I would think the 'dead-arm period' would not be as damaging to a pitcher who relies on movement and location as opposed to a hard thrower. It is not as if he is overpowering anyone now. It just seems to me that the loss of a couple MPH on your pitches would more adversely affect a pitcher for whom velocity is their greatest strength.

Caveman Techie
05-17-2010, 02:24 PM
I don't get the Maddox comparisons. First off Maddox was a fastball heavy pitcher for most of his career. Maddox sat in the 92 - 95 range on that fastball for most the early part of his career. Leake is a Sinker - Curve - Changeup guy... His fastball sits 88 to 91 MPH. Not quite Maddox like. He profiles much, much closer to Mussina or Hudson.

Also Innings shouldn't be a factor. Number of pitches should. I wouldn't let him eclipse 2800 pitches this year. Next year 3200. After that he should be fine to throw whatever. Although I am curious to see how and when his dead arm period hits him and what kind of drop in his stuff we see. I might shut him down 3 starts, DL him and bring Maloney up and let him recharge over that three week period. Might buy us an extra start or two in September.

Don't know which Maddux you are thinking of but the guy who dominated the 90's and early 2000's was a movement and control pitcher. His fastball barely broke the 90MPH mark for most of that time. The comparisons come from the fact that Leake gets alot of movement on all of his pitches including his fastball, which is one of the things that Maddux was known for.

Mr Larkin
05-17-2010, 04:22 PM
I don't get the Maddox comparisons. First off Maddox was a fastball heavy pitcher for most of his career. Maddox sat in the 92 - 95 range on that fastball for most the early part of his career. Leake is a Sinker - Curve - Changeup guy... His fastball sits 88 to 91 MPH. Not quite Maddox like. He profiles much, much closer to Mussina or Hudson.

Also Innings shouldn't be a factor. Number of pitches should. I wouldn't let him eclipse 2800 pitches this year. Next year 3200. After that he should be fine to throw whatever. Although I am curious to see how and when his dead arm period hits him and what kind of drop in his stuff we see. I might shut him down 3 starts, DL him and bring Maloney up and let him recharge over that three week period. Might buy us an extra start or two in September.

The Maddox comparison is very good. Leake is a "hit your spots" type of pitcher, regardless of whether he is throwing 99 or 89. He will only be successful if he can hit hit spots. Maddox was the same way. He rarely blew people away, like Randy Johnson, he was a pitcher who knew where the put the pitch and did so on a regular basis.

Kingspoint
05-17-2010, 05:45 PM
Again, when it comes to questioning Manager's moves, I prefer to wait until June (unless of course some blatantly stupid thing comes up like Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras). But, as far as setting up the whole season with what a Manager decides to do in April and May, I believe there are 1000's of dynamics involved and it's just not possible to question any of them.

Even though I dislike Baker as a Manager "as a whole", I'm going to just sit back and watch in April and May. There hasn't been any Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras situation, so I have nothing to really complain about (except I would have wanted to see more Janish and less Cairo).

Mr Larkin
05-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Again, when it comes to questioning Manager's moves, I prefer to wait until June (unless of course some blatantly stupid thing comes up like Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras). But, as far as setting up the whole season with what a Manager decides to do in April and May, I believe there are 1000's of dynamics involved and it's just not possible to question any of them.

Even though I dislike Baker as a Manager "as a whole", I'm going to just sit back and watch in April and May. There hasn't been any Corey Patterson or Willy Taveras situation, so I have nothing to really complain about (except I would have wanted to see more Janish and less Cairo).

I knew you could find something.

Mutaman
05-22-2010, 12:20 AM
You omit Mr. arrogant LaRussa. Oakland, St. Louis. AL then NL WS Titles.

Good job by you. My mistake. LaRussa, like Sparky, has won championships in both leagues.