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View Full Version : All you naysayers still hate the Rolen trade?



markymark69
05-18-2010, 05:04 PM
To all the naysayers out there who hated the Rolen trade? How's that working out? We have a professional ball player who knows how to win and knows how to play the game the right way.

The Blue Jays have a underachieving former whipping boy (Edwin Encarnacion), a reliever who is marginal at best (Josh Roenicke) and a "can't miss" prospect (Zach Drysdale, er Stewart) who is still hasn't made it to the major league club.

To all of you - KISS OFF!!!!!!!!!!

Vottomatic
05-18-2010, 05:07 PM
I never hated it. Great move. Solidifed our third base sketchy defense, brought leadership and professionalism to the team, and he can still swing the bat. Plus he gave us the close to his home discount and reworked his contract.

I love Scott Rolen.

The Voice of IH
05-18-2010, 05:10 PM
who hated the Rolen Trade? We sent EE right where he belonged...Canada

Redeye fly
05-18-2010, 05:12 PM
I don't know that I hated it as much as not understanding why it was done when it was done... both in terms of where Scott Rolen is in his career, and where we were in the standings. And yeah, I had high hopes for Zach Stewart, who may still prove to be a very good major league pitcher.

But as long as Rolen does what he's doing, I'm more than happy to have him.

Schmitbuck
05-18-2010, 05:13 PM
Nothing like a good "I told you so" thread.

GIDP
05-18-2010, 05:14 PM
Way to early to judge that trade other than what value the people had at the time of the trade, and at the time of the trade it was a bad one in my mind.

Mr Larkin
05-18-2010, 05:19 PM
Way to early to judge that trade other than what value the people had at the time of the trade, and at the time of the trade it was a bad one in my mind.

Are there many things that aren't true "in your mind"?

I read all the threads about Rolen being too old and feeble. Also, this board called the talk about Rolen being a good example, a veteran who has been there before and a player who plays the right way ("knows how to play the game") a bunch of junk.

You were all wrong.

Also, those chumps who said that Janish would be a much better SS than OC - what a joke OC is making out of all of you. He is hitting. He plays good defense. He also seems to be a spark plug in the dugout. I think the left side of our infield may be as sharp as it has been in many years.

mattfeet
05-18-2010, 05:22 PM
.....He plays good defense.....

Ok, ok, ok.....let's not get carried away here. He plays good defense WHEN A BALL IS HIT VERY CLOSE TO HIM. Janish has A LOT more range, but oCab is likely more knowledgeable/baseball-smart, but he is NOT a PHYSICALLY superior SS than Janish, not even close.

-Matt

Mr Larkin
05-18-2010, 05:24 PM
Ok, ok, ok.....let's not get carried away here. He plays good defense WHEN A BALL IS HIT VERY CLOSE TO HIM. Janish has A LOT more range, but oCab is likely more knowledgeable/baseball-smart, but he is NOT a PHYSICALLY superior SS than Janish, not even close.

-Matt

He plays better defense than what anybody on here was willing to give him credit for - that's a safe statement. Can't compare him and Janish because OC can do so very much and Janish has a good glove and that's all.

The Voice of IH
05-18-2010, 05:31 PM
2010: OC> Janish
I much rather see OC out their then Janish, but Janish will be good for us down the road.

ILoveWilly
05-18-2010, 05:32 PM
LOL, I love it. Rolen has definitely proven all the haters wrong so far. We wanted to be competitive and to say we are right now is an understatement.

mattfeet
05-18-2010, 05:37 PM
He plays better defense than what anybody on here was willing to give him credit for - that's a safe statement. Can't compare him and Janish because OC can do so very much and Janish has a good glove and that's all.

Cant argue with this. :)

-Matt

Knightro28
05-18-2010, 05:38 PM
I hated Encarnacion and have loved every minute of the Scott Rolen era. Just for the sole fact that E-5 is gone.

PhillipsHead
05-18-2010, 05:40 PM
The writing was on the wall with double E. It was a necessary trade that was fairly low risk...

HalMorrisRules
05-18-2010, 05:42 PM
To all the naysayers out there who hated the Rolen trade? How's that working out? We have a professional ball player who knows how to win and knows how to play the game the right way.

The Blue Jays have a underachieving former whipping boy (Edwin Encarnacion), a reliever who is marginal at best (Josh Roenicke) and a "can't miss" prospect (Zach Drysdale, er Stewart) who is still hasn't made it to the major league club.

To all of you - KISS OFF!!!!!!!!!!

You mean naysayers like some of the people in this thread?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79707

1990REDS
05-18-2010, 05:53 PM
You mean naysayers like some of the people in this thread?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79707

thats a hilarious thread by the way.

Kingspoint
05-18-2010, 05:57 PM
He plays better defense than what anybody on here was willing to give him credit for - that's a safe statement. Can't compare him and Janish because OC can do so very much and Janish has a good glove and that's all.

No. It's not a safe statement.

His UZR150 at the end of the year will be exactly what it is supposed to be....way below average indicative of a 35-year old trying to play Shortstop in the Major League.

And, his On Base Percentage still sucks, will continue to suck and and at the end of the year will suck. And, since it was a given that Dusty would use him in a leadoff or #2 position, that's the worst place to bat a guy like that (where it's a given that Baker would use the same OBP player, if it was Janish, at the bottom of the order, where a player like that belongs).

Walt did the best he could at the time...acquire the best Free Agent Shortstop that was available so that the team wouldn't have to rely on the inexperienced Paul Janish.

The positives that Cabrera brings, and were known at the time, was that his Batting Average would likely hover around .280, and that was something that Janish was unlikely to achieve. Janish was likely to have the same OBP, but with more Walks and a lot better Defense. But, sometimes it's better to get hits and have a Veteran play an important position. Dusty would have two options this way, while Janish could be insurance. If Janish hadn't worked out and there wasn't a Cabrera, then there wouldn't be any insurance.

We're winning because we've got great starting pitching. It's keeping us in every game.

Rolen, too, won't have a good UZR150, as he's also 35. But, he catches what he gets to, and makes the throw. Those who didn't like the trade, didn't like it because Rolen could have been picked up at the end of the season without giving up anything. EE could have been gotten rid of some other way because he was still young and had a career .800 OPS.

The REDS could have had Rolen, Stewart and Roenicke just as easily. Nobody ever said they didn't want Rolen over EE. EE was a terrible fielder and a negative to the pitching staff in that way. The trade is measurable only after it's seen three or four years from now what Stewart ends up accomplishing, just like the Kearns trade was measurable after seeing what Thompson accomplishes. Rolen's power has been a pleasant surprise this season.

Congratulations to EE, by the way, for his return from the DL today and his leading the Blue Jays to victory with a 2-run shot in the 2nd giving them a 2-0 lead.

Jojo wrote a good piece on the trade over in the minor league section.

Kingspoint
05-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Of the 1000 or so posts on the subject I found this to be as accurate an analyis of it as I could find....

Originally Posted by jojo

Basically its saying over the period looked at, pitchers ranked as Stewart was as a group averaged $12M of production at the major league level over their careers. That could be a starting pitcher who produced $100M, several guys who ended up being relievers and maybe contributed $6 million total as a group and a bunch of guys who never made it to the majors (and all variations in between).

If the Reds really were confident that Stewart would have 15 WAR production as a Red, they shouldn't have included him in the deal (That's about $60M worth of production on the open market most of which would've been surplus value given how little they'd have to pay relative to service time).

I doubt they thought about it like this BTW but who knows?

Basically I think it means that the Reds had some reservations about Stewart's chances to stick as a starter in the bigs and it probably also suggests that his trade market may not have been as enticing as we'd like to hope (probably because it is still in the air concerning which role he's ultimately likely to assume as a major leaguer). It probably also means the Reds wanted Rolen so badly that they'd error on the side of overpaying a bit too. That said, I don't think it was a dramatic overpay in the sense that the Reds were blinded at all costs in their like of Rolen (i.e. the Reds didn't think they were trading a TOR starter who commanded a stellar trade return).

1990REDS
05-18-2010, 06:14 PM
everyone can bash on ocab all they want with individual statistics but its a team sport and the old eyeball test right know is telling me were playing great Defence ( 1error in 13 games), lights out pitching, hitting great, and running the bases well ( first in the league going 1st to 3rd on a base hit). Bassically all the things we havent done for a decade. Oh and by the way were WINNING and in FIRST PLACE. So everyone sit back, relax, grab your favorite adult beverage. and lets enjoy the gettin while the gettins good. But on the other hand i do like the nit picking because thats means your winning when thiers nothing else to talk about. its better than the laundry list of complaints that we have had over the last couple of years.

ILoveWilly
05-18-2010, 06:21 PM
Of the 1000 or so posts on the subject I found this to be as accurate an analyis of it as I could find....

Originally Posted by jojo

Basically its saying over the period looked at, pitchers ranked as Stewart was as a group averaged $12M of production at the major league level over their careers. That could be a starting pitcher who produced $100M, several guys who ended up being relievers and maybe contributed $6 million total as a group and a bunch of guys who never made it to the majors (and all variations in between).

If the Reds really were confident that Stewart would have 15 WAR production as a Red, they shouldn't have included him in the deal (That's about $60M worth of production on the open market most of which would've been surplus value given how little they'd have to pay relative to service time).

I doubt they thought about it like this BTW but who knows?

Basically I think it means that the Reds had some reservations about Stewart's chances to stick as a starter in the bigs and it probably also suggests that his trade market may not have been as enticing as we'd like to hope (probably because it is still in the air concerning which role he's ultimately likely to assume as a major leaguer). It probably also means the Reds wanted Rolen so badly that they'd error on the side of overpaying a bit too. That said, I don't think it was a dramatic overpay in the sense that the Reds were blinded at all costs in their like of Rolen (i.e. the Reds didn't think they were trading a TOR starter who commanded a stellar trade return).

I stopped giving any credence to this post as soon as I read this line. Ranked as what was? Pick and choose games where he was ranked something at some random day by some random source? Sheesh. I can say Sam Bowie was at one time ranked higher than Michael Jordan.

A lot of overanalysis by internet GM's if you ask me. Guys who keep up with every new minor league ranking and hype every minor leaguer as some kind of gem future All Star, its just too much.

GIDP
05-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Ignore list are a wonderful thing.

brachial pleXUs
05-18-2010, 06:40 PM
Ignore list are a wonderful thing.

You just made my day by alerting me to the existence of this option! And my future visits to Redszone will be a much more rational and positive experience because of that. Thanks. :beerme:

1990REDS
05-18-2010, 06:43 PM
You just made my day by alerting me to the existence of this option! And my future visits to Redszone will be a much more rational and positive experience because of that. Thanks. :beerme:

wheres this option at?

aceace
05-18-2010, 06:49 PM
With so few posts and mostly a lurker here it's time to chime in. Rolen is a player that most of the current Reds players grew up admiring. That is an influential stat that can never be measured. Rolen is a clutch player that can still swing the bat. Rolen while not having the range he once had still plays hard and rarely makes an error. Rolen is a fundamental specialist. Rolen never smiles while batting, he goes to the plate to deliver. He is a professional that everyone looks up to. The players we gave up are unproven and we have players waiting to move up. Chapman replaced both of those guys we lost and has a much better shot at being a star SP.

brachial pleXUs
05-18-2010, 06:56 PM
wheres this option at?

Click on "User CP" up at the top, and then click on "edit ignore list" under "settings and options" on the left.

bgwilly31
05-18-2010, 07:23 PM
You know whats funny im always finding myself on the "Right" side of these i told you so arguments.

Rolens trade.
EE gone
OC>Janish
Griffey is the Plague
etc etc etc.

I rule. :p:

1990REDS
05-18-2010, 08:45 PM
Click on "User CP" up at the top, and then click on "edit ignore list" under "settings and options" on the left.

thanks. this will come in handy.:thumbup:

KySteveH
05-18-2010, 09:38 PM
everyone can bash on ocab all they want with individual statistics but its a team sport and the old eyeball test right know is telling me were playing great Defence ( 1error in 13 games), lights out pitching, hitting great, and running the bases well ( first in the league going 1st to 3rd on a base hit). Bassically all the things we havent done for a decade. Oh and by the way were WINNING and in FIRST PLACE. So everyone sit back, relax, grab your favorite adult beverage. and lets enjoy the gettin while the gettins good. But on the other hand i do like the nit picking because thats means your winning when thiers nothing else to talk about. its better than the laundry list of complaints that we have had over the last couple of years.
I see your point, in that RedsZone posters sometimes pick whatever arcane stat proves their point, then tell you you're an idiot for not agreeing. All I can say is to consider the source, take a deep breath, and move on.

That being said, it's my opinion that Cabrera is SO bad that I can see his lack of range nearly once or twice every game. It's hard to separate the SS who has slightly above average range from the guy with slightly below average range just by watcing from the stands or or TV. But Cabrera is bad enough that I can see it without needing any stats. Maybe I'm just overly critcal, but he just looks awful out there.

Kingspoint
05-18-2010, 11:01 PM
I see your point, in that RedsZone posters sometimes pick whatever arcane stat proves their point, then tell you you're an idiot for not agreeing. All I can say is to consider the source, take a deep breath, and move on.

That being said, it's my opinion that Cabrera is SO bad that I can see his lack of range nearly once or twice every game. It's hard to separate the SS who has slightly above average range from the guy with slightly below average range just by watcing from the stands or or TV. But Cabrera is bad enough that I can see it without needing any stats. Maybe I'm just overly critcal, but he just looks awful out there.

When it comes to Defense, the naked eye (in person) gives a better indication than any stat ever will.

nemesis
05-18-2010, 11:08 PM
So far Jocketty has done nothing but polish himself as a master at the GM position in his tenure here.

Griffey was moved basically for Massett who was lights out last year and short of a few early issues has become just nails as the set up guy and quite possibly our closer as soon as next year.

Dunn who probably wouldn't have resigned got us Owings who is in a good role now and Castillo who is serving the team well in AAA being a caddie to Chapman.

Waited out Gomes and got him on the cheap, Signed Chapman, Perez, Valor, Arias... Moved T Virus even at a loss. Got rid of EE and added Rolen who is off to a solid start... Been patient with the farm system and adding a whole new group of talent in less than a month. Dumped Pole, hired Price. He has done what he was brought here to do. Even if Dusty is the manager. The 9 losing seasons are going to be over come August when the Reds win game 82 on the last game of the month.

goreds2
05-18-2010, 11:11 PM
To all the naysayers out there who hated the Rolen trade? How's that working out? We have a professional ball player who knows how to win and knows how to play the game the right way.

The Blue Jays have a underachieving former whipping boy (Edwin Encarnacion), a reliever who is marginal at best (Josh Roenicke) and a "can't miss" prospect (Zach Drysdale, er Stewart) who is still hasn't made it to the major league club.

To all of you - KISS OFF!!!!!!!!!!

I did like the trade but it is kind of ironic you are getting on people who did not agree with it after he hit the homerun today off a washed up pitcher. :p:

We needed some type of leadership on this team which is what I liked about the trade.

gedred69
05-19-2010, 12:15 AM
This team wouldn't be where it is right now without Rolen, and probably without Cabrera. Look back to latter part of last year, plus so far this year. What's that record with Rolen in the lineup? If he can stay healthy, he's the stud the Reds needed. He makes everybody around him better.

ILoveWilly
05-19-2010, 12:16 AM
So far Jocketty has done nothing but polish himself as a master at the GM position in his tenure here.

Griffey was moved basically for Massett who was lights out last year and short of a few early issues has become just nails as the set up guy and quite possibly our closer as soon as next year.

Dunn who probably wouldn't have resigned got us Owings who is in a good role now and Castillo who is serving the team well in AAA being a caddie to Chapman.

Waited out Gomes and got him on the cheap, Signed Chapman, Perez, Valor, Arias... Moved T Virus even at a loss. Got rid of EE and added Rolen who is off to a solid start... Been patient with the farm system and adding a whole new group of talent in less than a month. Dumped Pole, hired Price. He has done what he was brought here to do. Even if Dusty is the manager. The 9 losing seasons are going to be over come August when the Reds win game 82 on the last game of the month.

Couldn't agree more. I think we could find a real manager out there who doesn't make silly lineup decisions, but right now it's about as good as we can hope for.

kevin w
05-19-2010, 12:47 AM
Couldn't agree more. I think we could find a real manager out there who doesn't make silly lineup decisions, but right now it's about as good as we can hope for.

:rolleyes:

Jr's Boy
05-19-2010, 01:13 AM
lol I could not believe some on here wanted feather bat Janish starting over OC.

ILoveWilly
05-19-2010, 01:39 AM
lol I could not believe some on here wanted feather bat Janish starting over OC.

Janish is basically the white Juan Castro. Why didn't we just keep Castro to be lifetime SS if that's what fans wanted. :yikes:

mroby85
05-19-2010, 02:12 AM
This team wouldn't be where it is right now without Rolen, and probably without Cabrera. Look back to latter part of last year, plus so far this year. What's that record with Rolen in the lineup? If he can stay healthy, he's the stud the Reds needed. He makes everybody around him better.

I agree with this post completely, you went from opening last season with Edwin Encarnacion, and Alex Gonzalez, to Scott Rolen, and Orlando Cabrera. Also the biggest key to the teams success in my opinion is the massive improvement in Jay Bruce from last season to this season. He's giving quality at bats, and not swinging at bad pitches and getting himself out. Coming into the season I felt Bruce was a big key to whether this team could compete or not, but I didn't have a good feeling about it, i've been pleasantly surprised. Back on topic, the left side of the infield is significantly improved, and i'd take Ocab any day of the week over Janish. He's a threat at the plate, and definitely doesn't hurt you in the field. Rolen on 3rd is a massive defensive improvement over Edwin. This is shaping up to be a fun season!

gilpdawg
05-19-2010, 02:23 AM
Ok, ok, ok.....let's not get carried away here. He plays good defense WHEN A BALL IS HIT VERY CLOSE TO HIM. Janish has A LOT more range, but oCab is likely more knowledgeable/baseball-smart, but he is NOT a PHYSICALLY superior SS than Janish, not even close.

-Matt
No kidding there. I'm starting to warm up to OCab, but there's no excuse to not at least put Janish in late in games for defense. Cabby has no range at all, which is excusable, because he's older. Cabrera of the 04 Red Sox was a great defensive SS. Not so much now. He's doing a fine job with the bat right now though. I wouldn't start Janish over him.

BRM13
05-19-2010, 03:10 AM
To all the naysayers out there who hated the Rolen trade? How's that working out? We have a professional ball player who knows how to win and knows how to play the game the right way.

The Blue Jays have a underachieving former whipping boy (Edwin Encarnacion), a reliever who is marginal at best (Josh Roenicke) and a "can't miss" prospect (Zach Drysdale, er Stewart) who is still hasn't made it to the major league club.

To all of you - KISS OFF!!!!!!!!!!

I'll take the bait. The major problem I had with this trade was that it was very risky for the Reds. Given their budget they can't afford to make expensive mistakes like picking up an expensive player who gets hurt and doesn't produce. Griffey was an extreme case of this. Rolen has been healthy this year (so far), so he's played a good number of games and hit for more power than his recent seasons suggested he would. This is fantastic. It also a little bit lucky given his history. Jocketty rolled the dice and so far he is a winner. That doesn't mean his gamble was a great one. It does mean that he properly assessed the upside of his gamble. That is, given that Rolen has been healthy he's been instrumental in improving the team. (In contrast, the Patterson/Taveras gambles were silly because even the 'upside' was mediocrity.) If Rolen gets hurt and the Reds are hamstrung by his salary in acquiring a viable replacement, then this won't look so smart.

As for what the Reds gave up to get him: A fair reading of the criticism is that people thought they paid too much (in talent) to acquire Rolen's *expected* value. Not too much if the Reds get full, healthy seasons from him. It is just that you can't really count on (expect) full healthy seasons from Rolen at this point. As a fan I hope that happens; but, I don't really think that is a very accurate forecast.

Mr Larkin
05-19-2010, 05:53 PM
No. It's not a safe statement.

His UZR150 at the end of the year will be exactly what it is supposed to be....way below average indicative of a 35-year old trying to play Shortstop in the Major League.

And, his On Base Percentage still sucks, will continue to suck and and at the end of the year will suck. And, since it was a given that Dusty would use him in a leadoff or #2 position, that's the worst place to bat a guy like that (where it's a given that Baker would use the same OBP player, if it was Janish, at the bottom of the order, where a player like that belongs).

Walt did the best he could at the time...acquire the best Free Agent Shortstop that was available so that the team wouldn't have to rely on the inexperienced Paul Janish.

The positives that Cabrera brings, and were known at the time, was that his Batting Average would likely hover around .280, and that was something that Janish was unlikely to achieve. Janish was likely to have the same OBP, but with more Walks and a lot better Defense. But, sometimes it's better to get hits and have a Veteran play an important position. Dusty would have two options this way, while Janish could be insurance. If Janish hadn't worked out and there wasn't a Cabrera, then there wouldn't be any insurance.

We're winning because we've got great starting pitching. It's keeping us in every game.

Rolen, too, won't have a good UZR150, as he's also 35. But, he catches what he gets to, and makes the throw. Those who didn't like the trade, didn't like it because Rolen could have been picked up at the end of the season without giving up anything. EE could have been gotten rid of some other way because he was still young and had a career .800 OPS.

The REDS could have had Rolen, Stewart and Roenicke just as easily. Nobody ever said they didn't want Rolen over EE. EE was a terrible fielder and a negative to the pitching staff in that way. The trade is measurable only after it's seen three or four years from now what Stewart ends up accomplishing, just like the Kearns trade was measurable after seeing what Thompson accomplishes. Rolen's power has been a pleasant surprise this season.

Congratulations to EE, by the way, for his return from the DL today and his leading the Blue Jays to victory with a 2-run shot in the 2nd giving them a 2-0 lead.

Jojo wrote a good piece on the trade over in the minor league section.

I could care less what his (OC) UZR150 number is or his SS # or his air bed sleep number. He is playing fine defense. He is a sparkplug to the offense, regardless of his OBP. He is driving in runs and hitting in pressure situations. He is a find addition to the Reds and I am glad he is starting over a glove guy that would be riding the pine on virtually every MLB team - he isn't good enough with the bat, but I would love to see him (yanish) get better offensively.

We have no idea if we could have landed Rolen as a free agent. We could have been outbid or an offer could have come from a more obvious contender, so you can't assume he could have been signed for nothing. How many years have you been a GM?

Again I repeat, nobody on this board is a baseball God, many geeks, not God.

CWRed
05-19-2010, 06:33 PM
I could care less what his (OC) UZR150 number is or his SS # or his air bed sleep number. He is playing fine defense. He is a sparkplug to the offense, regardless of his OBP. He is driving in runs and hitting in pressure situations. He is a find addition to the Reds and I am glad he is starting over a glove guy that would be riding the pine on virtually every MLB team - he isn't good enough with the bat, but I would love to see him (yanish) get better offensively.

We have no idea if we could have landed Rolen as a free agent. We could have been outbid or an offer could have come from a more obvious contender, so you can't assume he could have been signed for nothing. How many years have you been a GM?

Again I repeat, nobody on this board is a baseball God, many geeks, not God.

If you mean "fine defense" as in "range like my grandma"...then I agree. :D

malcontent
05-19-2010, 06:41 PM
I hated it, because of Rolen's salary, age and back issues and for losing the two pitchers. I was glad to see Encarnacion go, however.

And I hated the Rolen extension for blocking Frazier.

I'm happy to be so wrong, but we're still early.

1990REDS
05-19-2010, 06:51 PM
I'll take the bait. The major problem I had with this trade was that it was very risky for the Reds. Given their budget they can't afford to make expensive mistakes like picking up an expensive player who gets hurt and doesn't produce. Griffey was an extreme case of this. Rolen has been healthy this year (so far), so he's played a good number of games and hit for more power than his recent seasons suggested he would. This is fantastic. It also a little bit lucky given his history. Jocketty rolled the dice and so far he is a winner. That doesn't mean his gamble was a great one. It does mean that he properly assessed the upside of his gamble. That is, given that Rolen has been healthy he's been instrumental in improving the team. (In contrast, the Patterson/Taveras gambles were silly because even the 'upside' was mediocrity.) If Rolen gets hurt and the Reds are hamstrung by his salary in acquiring a viable replacement, then this won't look so smart.

As for what the Reds gave up to get him: A fair reading of the criticism is that people thought they paid too much (in talent) to acquire Rolen's *expected* value. Not too much if the Reds get full, healthy seasons from him. It is just that you can't really count on (expect) full healthy seasons from Rolen at this point. As a fan I hope that happens; but, I don't really think that is a very accurate forecast.

i think ya hit the nail on the head. I dont think anyone actually dislikes rolen on the team or thinks he cant make your team better in the short term. A 30+ year old guy who makes a decent chunk of money is very risky for a small market team.

Jerome
05-19-2010, 09:10 PM
While I think the prissy title of this thread is silly in nature, in looking back on some of the more reactionary posts, with 20/20 hindsight of course, from when we acquired Rolen, no one was more anti-Rolen than a certain veteran Sun Decker, so violent in his language, it caused me many sleepless nights. I always supported the Rolen deal, and the restructure was like sprinkles on ice cream. The Reds aren't in a pennant race yet, but I don't think it's too early to post an "I told you so" post as this guy instructed me to do, as you'll see below. If people are willing to post their harsh opinions that appear to be very incorrect, then they should be called out should things turn out differently. I'm only talking about the most drastic posts, which I feel like these ones are.

On The Rolen Trade
"The Hydra (Jockety/Baker/Bavasi) wreaks havoc on the Cincinnati REDS Ballclub again, ripping another part of the machine apart that was built up by O'Brien and Krivsky. I'm not wrong about this. Someone please post an "I told you so" in September, 2010 or September, 2011 if this team is in a pennant race. It's not possible though because they are committed to stupid moves like the "two" involving Scott Rolen."

On the Rolen contract restructured
"The REDS under Jockety/Baker/Bavasi continue to do stupid things and embrace mediocrity. Wake me up if this franchise ever wins 90 games again while Jockety/Baker/Bavasi is here (though he could sell the entire farm for one "failed" shot, but that won't count if it's followed by .500 and below seasons). Go to the games, have fun that day. If they win, fine. If they don't, fine. Just don't have any playoff expectations."

It's amazing how quickly Management can ruin an organization. Sadly, it takes a long time to undo the damage.

If you don't understand how horrible this trade was for the REDS and how it sets them back and the incompetence of the front office for making this trade, you don't understand how good Zach Stewart is right now. Right now, Stewart has a 6 ERA in 32 innings at Toronto AA

Walt....the only race you've positioned this team for is the cellar-dwelling spiral to being the worst team in baseball. You just lost 3 of 4 to the Padres who were 4-20 in July before coming to town. The season's over....build the club's future and sign free agents over the Winter without giving up your best prospect right now. You're senile Walt, and St. Louis is proving that they didn't need you to win, and you're proving that the REDS need you to lose, as Krivsky had them improving in every area of the organization. Castellini is clueless. He doesn't care about winning.

bigred14
05-19-2010, 09:47 PM
I love the Rolen trade now. How can you argue with the results? He's a great ballplayer and brings the experience the team needs.

Griffey012
05-19-2010, 10:41 PM
At the time I wasn't sure what to think about the trade. I knew Stewart had good numbers, but didn't know a lot about him and had never seen him. I knew I was glad EdE was gone. But Stewart, like most all other minor leaguers everyone drools about are just that, minor leaguers, who less than 1/3rd of become impact major leaguers. I'll trust Jocketty and his company to make moves for the ballclub more than I would trust my own opinion. I would like to think I would make a great GM, but I have zero idea what being a GM is really like. Not to mention, outside of trading Haren, Jocketty never traded a prospect who turned into something worthwhile and didn't get something worthwhile in return.

TheOnlyRedsFan
05-20-2010, 01:56 AM
I never hated it. Great move. Solidifed our third base sketchy defense, brought leadership and professionalism to the team, and he can still swing the bat. Plus he gave us the close to his home discount and reworked his contract.

I love Scott Rolen.

This post exactly.
I loved the deal from the beginning.

markymark69
05-20-2010, 12:08 PM
I did like the trade but it is kind of ironic you are getting on people who did not agree with it after he hit the homerun today off a washed up pitcher. :p:

We needed some type of leadership on this team which is what I liked about the trade.

Fair enough - but it was just timing. Rolen has been doing the little things and being a clutch performer from almost the moment he got here. It just seems to me that everytime the Reds make a move, the negativity is overwhelming. Some of that is justified. But sending a whipping boy and two over-valued prospects for a winning player - should have been met more positively.

You can argue the record and the schedule after he got here last year, but question for you all? Didn't you feel alot better that they won those games instead of losing them? The schedule is the schedule, you can't help you who play and when you play, but you can help whether you win or lose and like it or not, poo-poo it or not, Rolen is making a difference.

We all want to win in the here and now, but I still hear and read things about the impact this move or that move will have on the future. I understand, but you also can't have it both ways. You have to give up something to get something in return and right now - the Reds won that trade as far as I'm concerned. In five years - who really cares? we may not even be around in five years.

markymark69
05-20-2010, 12:17 PM
I'll take the bait. The major problem I had with this trade was that it was very risky for the Reds. Given their budget they can't afford to make expensive mistakes like picking up an expensive player who gets hurt and doesn't produce. Griffey was an extreme case of this. Rolen has been healthy this year (so far), so he's played a good number of games and hit for more power than his recent seasons suggested he would. This is fantastic. It also a little bit lucky given his history. Jocketty rolled the dice and so far he is a winner. That doesn't mean his gamble was a great one. It does mean that he properly assessed the upside of his gamble. That is, given that Rolen has been healthy he's been instrumental in improving the team. (In contrast, the Patterson/Taveras gambles were silly because even the 'upside' was mediocrity.) If Rolen gets hurt and the Reds are hamstrung by his salary in acquiring a viable replacement, then this won't look so smart.

As for what the Reds gave up to get him: A fair reading of the criticism is that people thought they paid too much (in talent) to acquire Rolen's *expected* value. Not too much if the Reds get full, healthy seasons from him. It is just that you can't really count on (expect) full healthy seasons from Rolen at this point. As a fan I hope that happens; but, I don't really think that is a very accurate forecast.

Fair point - but let's clear up one thing. Corey Patterson was signed under Wayne Krivsky's watch.

Secondly, you can't run a team or live your life with "I won't make this deal because Rolen might get hurt and then I'll look foolish." We take gambles getting our cars everyday, but we still do it. As far as the money and what the Reds can and can't do I'll let Castellini and Jocketty decide that.

One more thing - Rolen and Cabrera for that matter provide the intangibles, the leadership that was missing on this team - probably since Greg Vaughn. You can tell in the way they play.

Anyway, let's get behind them --- GO REDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

markymark69
05-20-2010, 12:20 PM
I hated it, because of Rolen's salary, age and back issues and for losing the two pitchers. I was glad to see Encarnacion go, however.

And I hated the Rolen extension for blocking Frazier.

I'm happy to be so wrong, but we're still early.

And you know Frazier can play third base at the big league level? How?

CRedsLarkin11
05-20-2010, 03:16 PM
I never liked Edwin so I was glad to see him go but I'll admit that I never thought Rolen would be this good offensively...and I doubt many of you did either. He is a very important key to the Reds success this year, let's just hope he stays healthy. I really enjoy watching him play. His defense is great compared to Edwin and he brings a great approach to the plate.

Ænima
05-20-2010, 03:53 PM
I loved the trade - Scott Rolen is easily one of my top ten favorite ball players of all-time, Reds or otherwise.

Always wanted to see him in our infield.

Kingspoint
05-21-2010, 03:53 AM
lol I could not believe some on here wanted feather bat Janish starting over OC.

How's that Cabrera looking as a 700 Plate Appearance on the season player?

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 08:23 PM
Just think if Rolen was actually hitting with Runners in Scoring position. He'd be getting MVP considerations.

Rolen has 17 RBI's in May. That's two more than the 15 Stubbs has since Stubbs was moved to the #7 hole in the order.