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alloverjr
05-20-2010, 06:44 PM
With all I've said, late in the game thread that I was not participating in until I needed this therapy, I am really concerned about Cordero and Massett not getting the job done with any consistency. Cordero is just plain unreliable these days, and bad Massett is back. If it wasn't for Rhodes, I think we would have seen more of these by now. And Rhodes was the one I worried about most having a "reliever volatility" correction this season.



Here's your big problem right here. Cordero only costs more than Danny Graves. And, there's really no one else in the pen that can be counted on with any degree of certainty except Rhodes. Need to be addressed.

forfreelin04
05-20-2010, 06:45 PM
I'd put this one in the category of a game we shouldn't have let get away, but it happens sometimes. Likewise, I'm sure we'll have some game this year where we have no business winning it, and yet we do. Karma is the right word. I expect the team to move on to the next game and start back to their winning ways.

Kinda like Tuesdays day game?

forfreelin04
05-20-2010, 06:49 PM
I'd put this one in the category of a game we shouldn't have let get away, but it happens sometimes. Likewise, I'm sure we'll have some game this year where we have no business winning it, and yet we do. Karma is the right word. I expect the team to move on to the next game and start back to their winning ways.

Btw, I second your enthusiasm. This team has the starting pitching to win 5 games in a row several more times. It wouldn't surprise me if it happens very soon

NJReds
05-20-2010, 07:06 PM
Reds Fire Rally Onion after Shocking Defeat to the Braves

(May 20, 2010) -- Only hours after a disappointing 10-9 loss to the Atlanta Braves that saw the Cincinnati Reds blow a 6 run lead in the bottom of the ninth, the front office tookswift action by firing the Rally Onion.

Most were shocked by the move as the Rally Onion was credited for the Reds ascent to first place in the Central Division, however, after today's loss, Reds owner Bob Castellini said he had seen enough.

"The Rally Onion got complacent. During the ninth inning meltdown it was found in the clubhouse, on a couch with a hunting magazine," Castellini said. "The losing stops now, and we need produce that will set a good example for these boys."

"If there's one thing I know, it's produce," he added.

The Reds have sent scouts out looking for a Rally Onion replacement. However some fans did hold a brief Rally Onion rally outside of Great American Ballpark in support of keeping the vegetable as part of the team.

"I like the onion," said one fan. "It's scrappy."

RFS62
05-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Reds Fire Rally Onion after Shocking Defeat to the Braves

(May 20, 2010) -- Only hours after a disappointing 10-9 loss to the Atlanta Braves that saw the Cincinnati Reds blow a 6 run lead in the bottom of the ninth, the front office tookswift action by firing the Rally Onion.

Most were shocked by the move as the Rally Onion was credited for the Reds ascent to first place in the Central Division, however, after today's loss, Reds owner Bob Castellini said he had seen enough.

"The Rally Onion got complacent. During the ninth inning meltdown it was found in the clubhouse, on a couch with a hunting magazine," Castellini said. "The losing stops now, and we need produce that will set a good example for these boys."

"If there's one thing I know, it's produce," he added.

The Reds have sent scouts out looking for a Rally Onion replacement. However some fans did hold a brief Rally Onion rally outside of Great American Ballpark in support of keeping the vegetable as part of the team.

"I like the onion," said one fan. "It's scrappy."



Awesome.

:beerme:

pedro
05-20-2010, 07:13 PM
Nice work NJReds...

I'm not so quick to dismiss the Rally Onion yet, if you run with the onion, sometimes you're going to stink.

MWM
05-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Geez, I can't believe some folks are trying to analyze a game like this one move-by-move to find fault. Like others have said, it was a 6 run lead for goodness sake. You can't put it on the manager for not having his best guys out there. These games just happen and the best way to handle it would be to just forget about it. Dusty, Walt, etc... should just moe one without paying it much mind. The worst thing they could do would be to start handing out blame when a one in a million happens by gestures and/or screaming. Holding onto these games is what causes long losing slides to happen. Moving on and recognizing it for what it is will allow the players to do the same. You can't make more of it than it is.

RFS62
05-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Nice work NJReds...

I'm not so quick to dismiss the Rally Onion yet, if you run with the onion, sometimes you're going to stink.



Also awesome.


:beerme:

reds44
05-20-2010, 07:26 PM
I'd put this one in the category of a game we shouldn't have let get away, but it happens sometimes. Likewise, I'm sure we'll have some game this year where we have no business winning it, and yet we do. Karma is the right word. I expect the team to move on to the next game and start back to their winning ways.
Pretty much.

Brutus
05-20-2010, 07:31 PM
Was at the game today. Witnessed the meltdown.

100% this is not on Dusty.

If your reliever, who had just retired six straight batters, can't be trusted to close out a 6-run lead in the last inning, he shouldn't be in the majors.

If your defensive players can't be trusted to make a routine play with a 5-run lead, they shouldn't be in the majors.

The meltdown that happened today has happened to every team at some point or another. It will happen many times in the future. Dusty could have pressed a million buttons, and somehow the result could have been the same.

If your team blows a 6-run lead, it has a lot more to do with managerial decisions, IMHO. It's a freak game that happens.

I think Lincoln and Cairo shouldn't have been on this team to begin with. But they still are, and until they are not, if you can't trust them in a 6-run lead, they never will be trusted.

IslandRed
05-20-2010, 07:35 PM
Geez, I can't believe some folks are trying to analyze a game like this one move-by-move to find fault. Like others have said, it was a 6 run lead for goodness sake. You can't put it on the manager for not having his best guys out there. These games just happen and the best way to handle it would be to just forget about it. Dusty, Walt, etc... should just moe one without paying it much mind. The worst thing they could do would be to start handing out blame when a one in a million happens by gestures and/or screaming. Holding onto these games is what causes long losing slides to happen. Moving on and recognizing it for what it is will allow the players to do the same. You can't make more of it than it is.

Nice post. We stole one from the Brewers earlier this week, we had this one stolen. That's baseball. Sometimes you just have to burn the game film and get ready to play the next one.

savafan
05-20-2010, 07:45 PM
If your reliever, who had just retired six straight batters, can't be trusted to close out a 6-run lead in the last inning, he shouldn't be in the majors.



We're talking about Mike Lincoln here. Dude barely has the stamina to ever go 2 innings, no way you send him out there for a 3rd, no matter how well he's pitching. If we're going to bow down to the almighty stat as it relates to Gomes not being an everyday player and Cabrera being bad defensively, then no way you can defend Dusty on leaving Lincoln in for a 3rd inning no matter what the score is.

Tornon
05-20-2010, 07:47 PM
I think Arroyo is the best possible pitcher for us to throw out there tomorrow to flip the momentum

Brutus
05-20-2010, 07:47 PM
We're talking about Mike Lincoln here. Dude barely has the stamina to ever go 2 innings, no way you send him out there for a 3rd, no matter how well he's pitching. If we're going to bow down to the almighty stat as it relates to Gomes not being an everyday player and Cabrera being bad defensively, then no way you can defend Dusty on leaving Lincoln in for a 3rd inning no matter what the score is.

Mike Lincoln is a Major League pitcher that, despite the 9th inning woes, finished throwing just 33 pitches (Billy Wagner threw 30 in one inning last night).

You're telling me he can't be trusted after 20 pitches to come in and get 3 outs with a 6-run cushion? Come now.

savafan
05-20-2010, 07:49 PM
You're telling me he can't be trusted after 20 pitches to come in and get 3 outs with a 6-run cushion? Come now.

Obviously not. Just take a look at the results. ;)

Brutus
05-20-2010, 08:07 PM
Obviously not. Just take a look at the results. ;)

And the odds of that happening were ridiculous.

Statistically, there was probably a 1% chance that would have happened. Even with Mike Lincoln on the mound, Dusty was playing a strong percentage that his team was going to win.

To criticize Dusty for this loss is grasping at straws big time.

CTA513
05-20-2010, 08:13 PM
Nice work NJReds...

I'm not so quick to dismiss the Rally Onion yet, if you run with the onion, sometimes you're going to stink.

I think the Braves stole the Rally Onion and used it against the Reds.
In fact I think I saw him doing the bounce with the Braves after the grand slam:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/CTA513/rallyonion.jpg


:angry:

savafan
05-20-2010, 08:13 PM
And the odds of that happening were ridiculous.

Statistically, there was probably a 1% chance that would have happened. Even with Mike Lincoln on the mound, Dusty was playing a strong percentage that his team was going to win.

To criticize Dusty for this loss is grasping at straws big time.

We could argue this ad infinitum and both think we're right, driving everyone else crazy in the process, so we should just amicably end this by conceding that I'm right and you're wrong.

jojo
05-20-2010, 08:44 PM
Lets put the blame for this loss where it truly belongs... Lisa Lantz and John Hale need to be held accountable for their contributions to this utter fiasco that has derailed the Reds season.....

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2010, 08:56 PM
No one gave Dusty any credit during the winning streak. But now that the Reds blow a big lead it's all his fault. Classic.

membengal
05-20-2010, 08:57 PM
No one gave Dusty any credit during the winning streak. But now that the Reds blow a big lead it's all his fault. Classic.

Completely. and. factually. untrue.

oneupper
05-20-2010, 09:00 PM
And the odds of that happening were ridiculous.

Statistically, there was probably a 1% chance that would have happened. Even with Mike Lincoln on the mound, Dusty was playing a strong percentage that his team was going to win.



Just FYI. The odds are lower than 1%. From 1977 to 2006, this situation (down 6 going into the bottom of the ninth) came up 1993 times. The home team won 3 (0.15%).

Around 600 to 1.

Biblical Meltdown.

I blame the onion. We trusted it too much.

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2010, 09:03 PM
Completely. and. factually. untrue.

I guess I missed all the "Dusty is doing a great job" threads on this board. :D

Slyder
05-20-2010, 09:16 PM
I hope Dusty shuts off the club house and gives them a good bashing. Worked last time

He needs to look in the mirror for this one.

membengal
05-20-2010, 09:20 PM
I guess I missed all the "Dusty is doing a great job" threads on this board. :D

You have also missed all the Dusty is doing awful threads. Point of fact, there are not any of those either. There is plenty of discussion of Dusty's moves and style in the game threads, in chat, and in threads touching on other subjects, and the praise of Dusty's moves has been plentiful, as has criticism when it it is warranted.

I swear, it is possible to both praise and be critical. It doesn't HAVE to be either/or. This board can be rather bi-polar.

Dusty has strengths. Dusty has weaknesses. Sometimes the strengths lead directly into a weakness. I would posit that was part of what happened today. Dusty puts a lot of trust in his players and wants good things for them. I think he wanted to get Lincoln a save. Which I support, up to a point. Say, two batters on with none out in the 9th. Sticking with him past that was a mistake. Born, I would argue, out of Dusty's wanting something good for Lincoln statistically. It is what it is.

But it IS possible for people to be critical of those moves while at the same time acknowledging that he has done and said plenty of things of late that are spot on. And there have been plenty of comments to that end.

ETA: In fact, here is one such instance back on May 9...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2077013&postcount=52

redsmetz
05-20-2010, 09:42 PM
And the odds of that happening were ridiculous.

Statistically, there was probably a 1% chance that would have happened. Even with Mike Lincoln on the mound, Dusty was playing a strong percentage that his team was going to win.

To criticize Dusty for this loss is grasping at straws big time.

From win expectancy calculator

http://winexp.walkoffbalk.com/expectancy/search

games: 1669
home won: 2
expectancy: 0.001

BTW,this is for the visiting team being up 6 runs at the start of the ninth. The data is only from 1977 thru 2006.

RedsMan3203
05-20-2010, 09:44 PM
Can't win them all.... Always tomorrow guys!!

Brutus
05-20-2010, 09:45 PM
Just FYI. The odds are lower than 1%. From 1977 to 2006, this situation (down 6 going into the bottom of the ninth) came up 1993 times. The home team won 3 (0.15%).

Around 600 to 1.

Biblical Meltdown.

I blame the onion. We trusted it too much.

I suspected that was the case, but wanted to be overly conservative since I wasn't in the mood to look up the exact numbers LOL

oneupper
05-20-2010, 10:11 PM
From win expectancy calculator

http://winexp.walkoffbalk.com/expectancy/search

games: 1669
home won: 2
expectancy: 0.001

BTW,this is for the visiting team being up 6 runs at the start of the ninth. The data is only from 1977 thru 2006.

Dude. You registered rallyonion.com? :D

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2010, 11:56 PM
You have also missed all the Dusty is doing awful threads. Point of fact, there are not any of those either. There is plenty of discussion of Dusty's moves and style in the game threads, in chat, and in threads touching on other subjects, and the praise of Dusty's moves has been plentiful, as has criticism when it it is warranted.

I swear, it is possible to both praise and be critical. It doesn't HAVE to be either/or. This board can be rather bi-polar.

Dusty has strengths. Dusty has weaknesses. Sometimes the strengths lead directly into a weakness. I would posit that was part of what happened today. Dusty puts a lot of trust in his players and wants good things for them. I think he wanted to get Lincoln a save. Which I support, up to a point. Say, two batters on with none out in the 9th. Sticking with him past that was a mistake. Born, I would argue, out of Dusty's wanting something good for Lincoln statistically. It is what it is.

But it IS possible for people to be critical of those moves while at the same time acknowledging that he has done and said plenty of things of late that are spot on. And there have been plenty of comments to that end.

ETA: In fact, here is one such instance back on May 9...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2077013&postcount=52

Solid post. I think we agree more than I originally thought.

traderumor
05-21-2010, 12:18 AM
The comeback giveth, the comeback taketh away. We're still ahead in the late comeback standings.

Glad we're getting out of Choptown.

WMR
05-21-2010, 12:27 AM
Good. Dusty should learn a little from this.

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

God, just when I begin to think 'You know, maybe Dusty isn't so bad after all,' he reminds us all, painfully, of why he stinks so much as a manager and why the Reds have no serious shot to compete as long as he is in charge.

I hate his 'OLD SCHOOL' approach more than just about anything in baseball.

Mike Lincoln for 3 innings is seriously LOL-worthy. And all to get him a stupid stat that doesn't really mean a damn thing. The bullpen is rusty... multiple guys need work... but MIKE LINCOLN needs to go 3. :lol:

WMR
05-21-2010, 12:43 AM
From win expectancy calculator

http://winexp.walkoffbalk.com/expectancy/search

games: 1669
home won: 2
expectancy: 0.001

BTW,this is for the visiting team being up 6 runs at the start of the ninth. The data is only from 1977 thru 2006.

Too bad you can't plug 'Trying to get Mike Lincoln a 3 inning save' into the win expectancy calculator.

WVRedsFan
05-21-2010, 03:06 AM
Just went through this big thread (probably more posts after the game than during) and was thankful that I did not witness it. My blood pressure has been a problem lately (blame my mother) and it's not been a good week for that. Anyway, watching that would have probably caused a stroke and I might not be able to type for the rest of the season (which many would appreciate). I learned a few things from this game thread (the beauty of the game thread):

1. This bullpen is the weak part of the team. Lincoln is fodder. He's always been fodder and will continue to be fodder. Going into the ninth inning with a big lead means you thow intelligently. What in Mike Lincoln's past suggests that? The oft injured reliever is simply one of those that if you get a good inning, you thank your lucky stars and move on. For some godawful reason, Dusty has faith in him. Why I don't know.
2. Nick Masset is much the same. He has great stuff but is weak in the head. In nine pitches, allowed three hits and two runs (albit helped by an error), but he is not to be trusted with runners on base.
3. Arthur Rhodes is a gem. Why he wasn't allowed to finish this is amazing. What does he have to do? Have a 0.00 ERA? Poor Dusty is so obsessed with the right-left "book" that he believes Rhodes can only pitch one inning or to one batter. He was the key, but the big closer who is simply and never has been lights out gets the nod because he makes the big bucks and his statistics are padded by good luck and an unintelligent managerial philosophy.
4. Codero does not, regardless of what we hear (all about that statistic about how when leading after so many innings, the Reds win or something like that), throw strikes. The commentators said the winning batter talked to Chipper Jones and he told him to wait him out and make him throw strikes. The batter waited for that strike and drove it. Codero is the biggest, and yes I mean this, biggest boonfogle of the Krivisy administration. Putting all that money on the line for a non-lights-out closer is simply stupid. If I were a batter, i sit up there and take balls and take first base most of the time. I have no confidence in him and never have. The league is catching on and the patient can beat him. Fortunately, most are not. I hate the "closer mentality." Oh, yeah, it's the "bomb." You trust the game to your closer and you bring him in anytime there is a save opportunity. That is simply stupid. Yeah, it's the way the game is played these days, but that doesn't make it any more intelligent.

Now, I'm getting fired up again, and the blood pressure is rising. This was a devastating loss, but these kind of events separate the good from the bad. We're not there yet and won't be as long as Johnny B. Baker continues to value the Cairos and Pattersons and Taverases and Lincolns and Nixes. Even the Coderos and Lincolns and Massetts. As I said before, we're not ready for prime time yet. We should have been 2-0 in this series and we end up 0-2 because of this kind of thinking. Positive? Yep, I'm positive that you use what you've got to win, not the book. Inexcusable. Watch the coming fall. And I hate it.

WVRedsFan
05-21-2010, 03:17 AM
I guess I missed all the "Dusty is doing a great job" threads on this board. :D

Blitz, I'm no Dusty basher, but he made some obvious bad moves today, which is common and happens to all of us. He makes good moves and bad moves as is the human condition, but this was a classic failure. He's made some good move over the last 20 games, but get a big F in what happened today. The allowing Cairo a roster spot, the leaving Lincoln in for what owuld have been 3 innings, the pulling Rhodes, and the confidence in Codero was really, really wrong. You know it and I know it. And it will happen again as well as some good decisions. That's why I love baseball. Tomorrow is another day, but we learned today (even I couldn't watch) that we are not there yet and won't be for awhile.

Razor Shines
05-21-2010, 03:30 AM
Well they certainly balls'd that one up.

How can 90% of the board know that Lincoln is gonna suck if he goes out for a third inning, but the coaching staff not know it? Watching the archive I was literally saying out loud "Please tell me Lincoln isn't going back out there" as I was fast forwarding the commercial break between the top and bottom of the 9th. Press play and who do I see?.......balls'd.

Ron Madden
05-21-2010, 04:54 AM
That 9th inning was as Ugly as the 2nd inning was Beautiful.

I'd blame the left side of the infield more than the bullpen for this meltdown.

Lincoln threw a DP ball that Ocab butchered, Masset threw a DP ball that Cairo totally screwed up.

Whenever Cordero enters the game it scares me and I aint afraid of nothin'.

Best thing to do is put it behind us and move on.

:(

GAC
05-21-2010, 05:37 AM
Geez, I can't believe some folks are trying to analyze a game like this one move-by-move to find fault. Like others have said, it was a 6 run lead for goodness sake. You can't put it on the manager for not having his best guys out there. These games just happen and the best way to handle it would be to just forget about it. Dusty, Walt, etc... should just moe one without paying it much mind. The worst thing they could do would be to start handing out blame when a one in a million happens by gestures and/or screaming. Holding onto these games is what causes long losing slides to happen. Moving on and recognizing it for what it is will allow the players to do the same. You can't make more of it than it is.

Very good post Mike. How does that old saying go...[blank] happens? First off, I didn't get to hear the 9th inning yesterday, and assumed it was a Red's win, being up by 6 runs. What a surprise it was to wake up this morning and read about the Brave's comeback.

Baker's to blame because the players on that field, especially from a defensive perspective, didn't get the job done?

They made four - count'em - FOUR errors, and blew two potential double plays in the ninth before Conrad's FB bounced off Nix's glove and over the fence for a walk-off GS. Now think about that - a FB that should have been caught, bounces off the LFer's glove for a grand slam.

I guess one could say that if Rolen had been at 3B instead of Cairo then the chances of that error occurring would have been very slim. But I'm not going to question Baker as to why Rolen got the day off. There had to be some sound reasoning behind it (back?) or he would have been in there. But my gawd! We were up 8-0 after 2 innings, and 9-3 going into the 9th, and doing it without Rolen. And the Reds players that contributed to that disaster of a 9th (Cairo, Cabrero, Nix) were also very instrumental in building that commanding lead.

No, the BP wasn't stellar, But IMO it was more of a defensive meltdown then anything else.

It was a "freak of nature" inning. karma, mojo, gremlins, whatever. Yes, it can test the mettle of a team. And a good team, especially any professional team, will put it behind them and keep grinding away.

IMO, too much over analyzing on this one as to what happened.

redsfandan
05-21-2010, 07:08 AM
Mike Lincoln is a Major League pitcher that, despite the 9th inning woes, finished throwing just 33 pitches (Billy Wagner threw 30 in one inning last night).

You're telling me he can't be trusted after 20 pitches to come in and get 3 outs with a 6-run cushion? Come now.
I think that may be the first time I've seen Mike Lincoln (a borderline major league pitcher) compared to Billy Wagner (a borderline HOFer). I don't have a problem with Lincoln for an inning in a low leverage situation IF we don't have a better option. But this is Mike Lincoln. And Dusty pushed his luck by throwing him out there for a 3rd inning. And this was the result:

Mike Lincoln pitching for Cincinnati
(score was 9-3 with no outs)
T Glaus singled to right.
E Hinske singled to right, T Glaus to second.
Y Escobar reached on infield single to shortstop, T Glaus to third, E Hinske to second.
N McLouth singled to deep right, T Glaus and E Hinske scored, Y Escobar to third.
(score was now 9-5 with 2 guys on base, still no outs, and the top of the Atlanta batting order coming up)
THEN Masset relieved M Lincoln.

So, ... how many people here would've left Lincoln in for THAT long when it was obvious that he had lost his ability to get outs?


It was a "freak of nature" inning. karma, mojo, gremlins, whatever. Yes, it can test the mettle of a team. And a good team, especially any professional team, will put it behind them and keep grinding away.

IMO, too much over analyzing on this one as to what happened.
Maybe this is just a reminder that besides upgrading the talent the Reds need to upgrade the people in charge of the talent. We knew Dusty had his faults. That doesn't mean the Reds can't do better.

KoryMac5
05-21-2010, 10:54 AM
It's a long season 162 games worth of highs and lows, hopefully this is the low water mark for the Red's season. I think the kids will bounce back tonight. Just think it could be worse we all could be Cubs fans, 1908 ouch!

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2010, 12:54 PM
We're talking about Mike Lincoln here. Dude barely has the stamina to ever go 2 innings, no way you send him out there for a 3rd, no matter how well he's pitching. If we're going to bow down to the almighty stat as it relates to Gomes not being an everyday player and Cabrera being bad defensively, then no way you can defend Dusty on leaving Lincoln in for a 3rd inning no matter what the score is.

Just remember that Lincoln's defense let him down too. Tailor-made double play ball hit to Cabrera would've made that a TOTALLY different inning.

HeatherC1212
05-21-2010, 12:58 PM
And then Masset got another double play ball that Cairo messed up so if either of those two double plays happen, this board is a lot quieter and less stressed out.

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2010, 01:03 PM
I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

God, just when I begin to think 'You know, maybe Dusty isn't so bad after all,' he reminds us all, painfully, of why he stinks so much as a manager and why the Reds have no serious shot to compete as long as he is in charge.

I hate his 'OLD SCHOOL' approach more than just about anything in baseball.

Mike Lincoln for 3 innings is seriously LOL-worthy. And all to get him a stupid stat that doesn't really mean a damn thing. The bullpen is rusty... multiple guys need work... but MIKE LINCOLN needs to go 3. :lol:

The only guy in the pen who needed work...Lincoln and I think Fisher. Everybody else has pitched recently. (not sure on Fisher though)

That game was a perfect opportunity to get the pen some extra rest in the middle of a long stretch of games without any days off. Lincoln going three wasn't really a big deal for me. Actually thought it was a good idea considering the situation. If the D had even come close to doing its part...nobody would be going nuts right now. IMO this is ALL on the defense for forcing the pitchers to get an extra FOUR outs basically. 2 botched DP's.

redsmetz
05-21-2010, 02:10 PM
And then Masset got another double play ball that Cairo messed up so if either of those two double plays happen, this board is a lot quieter and less stressed out.

If either of those balls had resulted in just one out (hence making it a Fielders Choice, not an error) and that game is in all likelihood won.

Brutus
05-21-2010, 03:42 PM
I think that may be the first time I've seen Mike Lincoln (a borderline major league pitcher) compared to Billy Wagner (a borderline HOFer). I don't have a problem with Lincoln for an inning in a low leverage situation IF we don't have a better option. But this is Mike Lincoln. And Dusty pushed his luck by throwing him out there for a 3rd inning. And this was the result:

Mike Lincoln pitching for Cincinnati
(score was 9-3 with no outs)
T Glaus singled to right.
E Hinske singled to right, T Glaus to second.
Y Escobar reached on infield single to shortstop, T Glaus to third, E Hinske to second.
N McLouth singled to deep right, T Glaus and E Hinske scored, Y Escobar to third.
(score was now 9-5 with 2 guys on base, still no outs, and the top of the Atlanta batting order coming up)
THEN Masset relieved M Lincoln.

So, ... how many people here would've left Lincoln in for THAT long when it was obvious that he had lost his ability to get outs?

Maybe this is just a reminder that besides upgrading the talent the Reds need to upgrade the people in charge of the talent. We knew Dusty had his faults. That doesn't mean the Reds can't do better.

No one compared the talent level of Mike Lincoln to Billy Wagner. I was comparing the fact that Lincoln had not thrown many pitches, so the fact it was his 'third' inning of work really was not that big of a deal.

Also, I thought Lincoln was taken out at the right time. He was protecting not a 1-run, 2-run or even 4-run lead, but rather a 6-run lead. The third hit was an infield hit. I don't think much of Lincoln's ability and personally don't think he should be on the roster, but for crying out loud he's a major league pitcher and 99.99% of the time should be trusted to get 3 outs before 6 runs are scored.

redsfandan
05-21-2010, 05:54 PM
No one compared the talent level of Mike Lincoln to Billy Wagner. I was comparing the fact that Lincoln had not thrown many pitches, so the fact it was his 'third' inning of work really was not that big of a deal.

Also, I thought Lincoln was taken out at the right time. He was protecting not a 1-run, 2-run or even 4-run lead, but rather a 6-run lead. The third hit was an infield hit. I don't think much of Lincoln's ability and personally don't think he should be on the roster, but for crying out loud he's a major league pitcher and 99.99% of the time should be trusted to get 3 outs before 6 runs are scored.
It's a big deal when it's Lincoln. Yeah, it was a 6 run lead when the inning started. Things changed pretty quickly though right? Why wait to get someone in the bullpen ready just in case? Like you said, it's debatable whether he should be on the roster so if you're going to use him why push it? Doesn't make sense to me. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.