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View Full Version : Harang needs to step up tomorrow.



Kingspoint
05-23-2010, 05:33 PM
All 5 pitchers in their latest starts had a setback from their previous start. It was expected as they had been pitching progressively better for 4 starts in a row (for the most part).

Now with the rotation beginning another 5-game stretch, Harang needs to show why he's "supposed to be" the ACE of the staff, and pitch deep enough into the game and well enough against the Pirates to get the win on Monday.

And, the season continues....7 games left before we face the Cardinals in St. Louis for a 3-game series.

mroby85
05-23-2010, 05:36 PM
I agree completely, not that its a big accomplishment to have a quality start against the Pirates, but it needs to be done, and should be expected to be done by a guy who's making the $ Harang is.

sabometrics
05-23-2010, 05:38 PM
How were Cueto and Leake's performances setbacks? They pitched great. Leake's start may have been his best all season if not for all the errors.

Aaron needs to step it up because he's pitching against a pitiful Pirates club against a pitiful Pirates starter. No excuses if he gives up 4 or more against these schmucks.

Kingspoint
05-23-2010, 05:42 PM
How were Cueto and Leake's performances setbacks? They pitched great. Leake's start may have been his best all season if not for all the errors.

Aaron needs to step it up because he's pitching against a pitiful Pirates club against a pitiful Pirates starter. No excuses if he gives up 4 or more against these schmucks.


Cueto and Leake didn't pitch as well as they had pitched the week before. That's all. There was nothing negative about them, but like Arroyo and Bailey and Harang, they weren't as good as their previous performance.

GIDP
05-23-2010, 05:42 PM
Dusty just needs to not be afraid to give other guys in his pen some innings.

Kingspoint
05-23-2010, 05:49 PM
Dusty just needs to not be afraid to give other guys in his pen some innings.


Yep.

He gave Fisher an important inning today...trying to keep them in the game in the 8th.

Vottomatic
05-23-2010, 07:49 PM
Yep.

He gave Fisher an important inning today...trying to keep them in the game in the 8th.

Yeah, but before that he brought in the guy opposing hitters are tagging. It never ends.

Disappointed in management for not demoting Herrera already and bringing up Rosario. Should have been done already.

Kingspoint
05-24-2010, 11:59 PM
Harang did not step it up today. He had another poor outing. A 5.67 ERA today....a 1.580 WHIP....an .857 OPS. All of those numbers are very bad.

If he hadn't pitched so poorly, Dusty Baker wouldn't have had to use Cordero again. The Pirates had only scored 3 runs or less in 24 of their last 32 games and 3 of the other 8 games they only scored 4 runs. But, they manage to find a way to score 5 runs off of Aaron Harang. If it was anyone but the Pirates he would have given up even more runs.

If Harang has more than one more bad effort over his next 5 starts, the REDS need to get rid of this guy because he's never going to change. He pitches like an idiot. He has no baseball sense when it comes to pitching. He's only induced two double-plays in 9 starts going into today's game while serving up 10 pitches he shouldn't have thrown that turned into homeruns (2nd most in the NL). Perhaps today's 1st inning induced 4-3 double-play is a sign of good things to come.

I'm not giving up on him, yet. I've been a firm believer that Bryan Price, if anyone can, will turn Harang around. The hopes that Price was getting through to Harang showed itself from April 27th to May 8th when Harang had Game Scores of 53, 52, and 60 respectively. Albeit, the 53 and 52 Game Scores are nothing to write home about, but for Harang, it showed promise. As expected though, Harang reverted back to his old form and followed those three good outings with three straight bad outings, not poor, but very below average....Pittsburgh-esque. These scores of 43, 43, and 40 are not acceptable this season. This type of pitching is dragging the team down and could keep them from reaching the playoffs if he continues like this and the REDS don't move him.

I figure 12 starts is enough to teach an old dog new tricks. His next start is his 11th. Any Game Scores after that of less than 50, unless it's a 1 out of 4 occasion, will show me that this old dog is done, and needs to retire. I don't really care what he does....just stop pitching for the REDS (if he doesn't turn it around right now).

sivman17
05-25-2010, 12:25 AM
I was pretty happy with Harang until the 7th. I think Dusty left him in too long. Before he gave up the 2-run base knock he had a decent outing (for him).

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 12:34 AM
I was pretty happy with Harang until the 7th. I think Dusty left him in too long. Before he gave up the 2-run base knock he had a decent outing (for him).

Yes.

Starters need to try to go 7 innings, though. 6 innings in your 10th start isn't getting it done.

sivman17
05-25-2010, 12:38 AM
Starters need to try to go 7 innings, though. 6 innings in your 10th start isn't getting it done.

I would agree. For Harang's very very low standards, he had a good outing till the 7th. In a 20-game stretch we can't afford to go to our bullpen in the 7th, especially after yesterday's debacle.

I don't like Harang.

GIDP
05-25-2010, 12:43 AM
You cant expect pitchers to be on top of their game when they are at going over 110 some pitches. Up to the 7th Harang was fine. Pitchers arent always going to go 7. Harang was up to 113 pitches before he gaves up a 1st pitch double to Young. Trying to push a pitcher 1 extra inning is fine some times but Cedeno walks, Crosby flew out to Bruce, then he walked Iwamura. He should have pulled him then. Dusty wanted the extra inning and had to go to the pen anyways after only 1 out. Hes got to realize that at some point a guy is gassed.

Harang pitched a decent game tonight but was pushed too far and it bit him.

sivman17
05-25-2010, 12:50 AM
What was the deal with his velocity tonight? That's the slowest I think I've ever seen him throw.

texasdave
05-25-2010, 01:02 AM
What was the deal with his velocity tonight? That's the slowest I think I've ever seen him throw.

His fastball, according to Gameday, ranged from 85-91. The majority of which were in the upper 80's. He got a lot of line drive outs. If that is the kind of stuff he is going to take to the mound he will get lit up each and every time he toes the rubber. Hopefully, that was an aberration. Just one of those games in which he doesn't have his best stuff.

sabometrics
05-25-2010, 01:07 AM
There was this crystallizing moment I had tonight when I saw Harangutang score 1st-to-home tonight while standing down the 3rd base line: "Why can't we just accept Harang for what he is now (a 5th starter) and relax?" Me included (as seen by my previous post).

There are much, much worse 5th starters out there. He hasn't pitched well, but he's pitched well enough to give the Reds a chance to win in all but 2 of his games. How often have we been able to say that about our worst starter in the last decade?

Oh yeah, I just remembered, there are 12.5 million reasons why we can't accept a mediocre Aaron Harang. Maybe we all should just forget about the money (it's not ours anyways, management can get really angry with him if they want) put things in perspective, and tolerate our acceptable 5th starter.

PlugALeake
05-25-2010, 01:07 AM
I was happy with Harang's pitching performance tonight.. He didnt have his best stuff, but he got people out. Even though it was the Pirates...

nemesis
05-25-2010, 01:11 AM
His fastball, according to Gameday, ranged from 85-91. The majority of which were in the upper 80's. He got a lot of line drive outs. If that is the kind of stuff he is going to take to the mound he will get lit up each and every time he toes the rubber. Hopefully, that was an aberration. Just one of those games in which he doesn't have his best stuff.

Agreed. Harang has lost alot of motion on his stuff. I have heard it time and time again from both Brantley and Welch. It almost sounded like Welsh was a bit irate with the way Harang was throwing to good a pitch on two strikes over and over. Harang is going to get shelled in the summer months if this continues. Like Eric Milton Shelled. With Bailey down he needs to have a few good starts just to take the pressure off Leake who pitches right behind him.

tbball10
05-25-2010, 01:14 AM
I thought it was one of his worst starts. His velocity was way down and he got hit hard all night, not just in the 7th.

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 01:15 AM
You cant expect pitchers to be on top of their game when they are at going over 110 some pitches. Up to the 7th Harang was fine. Pitchers arent always going to go 7. Harang was up to 113 pitches before he gaves up a 1st pitch double to Young. Trying to push a pitcher 1 extra inning is fine some times but Cedeno walks, Crosby flew out to Bruce, then he walked Iwamura. He should have pulled him then. Dusty wanted the extra inning and had to go to the pen anyways after only 1 out. Hes got to realize that at some point a guy is gassed.

Harang pitched a decent game tonight but was pushed too far and it bit him.

Yes. For Harang's sake, he should have took him out after 6 so that he could have had a very good outing to work off of going into this next start. Now he leaves the game in a negative situation. This was on Dusty.

nemesis
05-25-2010, 01:17 AM
Yes. For Harang's sake, he should have took him out after 6 so that he could have had a very good outing to work off of going into this next start. Now he leaves the game in a negative situation. This was on Dusty.

So has Harang regressed to Josh Fogg status? 5 or 6 innings and done? No matter how well he is pitching?

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 01:21 AM
So has Harang regressed to Josh Fogg status? 5 or 6 innings and done? No matter who well he is pitching?

He's gone 6 innings in almost every start. He's pretty consistent that way. He's been given excellent run support (4.95 runs per game). The REDS were 16-3 when scoring 5 or more runs this season before today. You know who pitched those 3 losses? I'll give you one guess.

I compare Harang to Harang himself. He's pitched no differently this year than he did the last two seasons. Three years ago he could get away with it because he could always get the "needed" strikeout. He can't anymore and he's not adjusting.

texasdave
05-25-2010, 01:24 AM
There was this crystallizing moment I had tonight when I saw Harangutang score 1st-to-home tonight while standing down the 3rd base line: "Why can't we just accept Harang for what he is now (a 5th starter) and relax?" Me included (as seen by my previous post).

There are much, much worse 5th starters out there. He hasn't pitched well, but he's pitched well enough to give the Reds a chance to win in all but 2 of his games. How often have we been able to say that about our worst starter in the last decade?

Oh yeah, I just remembered, there are 12.5 million reasons why we can't accept a mediocre Aaron Harang. Maybe we all should just forget about the money (it's not ours anyways, management can get really angry with him if they want) put things in perspective, and tolerate our acceptable 5th starter.

I had a crystallizing moment of my own when I saw him serving up meatball after meatball. He was lucky as hell this was the Pirates. If he takes that same stuff out there against most teams he doesn't make it to the fifth inning. Besides, why settle for mediocrity? Why shouldn't the Reds try to put the best five pitchers they can in the rotation? If your rationalization is that he is better than the flotsam and the jetsam that the Reds have run out there for the past ten years somehow makes tolerating Harang acceptable, then you are simply wrong. How many playoff appearances did the Reds make during that time? That is right, zero. If we have better alternatives down in Louisville, which I strongly believe is the case, then Harang should either go or be made the long man out of the pen. I am tired of fourth or fifth place finishes. We should aspire for more.

GIDP
05-25-2010, 01:26 AM
Ive accepted that he isnt going to pitch like a 12 million dollar pitcher. He has the ability to still be a good pitcher and i dont see the reason to harp on his price tag.

sivman17
05-25-2010, 01:27 AM
The REDS were 16-3 when scoring 5 or more runs this season before today. You know who pitched those 3 losses? I'll give you one guess.

What about the Leake game last Thursday?

There was also the Cubs game where we lost 14-7 that Bailey started.

nemesis
05-25-2010, 01:27 AM
The REDS were 16-3 when scoring 5 or more runs this season before today. You know who pitched those 3 losses? I'll give you one guess.

That's a telling stat...

We always felt so bad for Harang in seasons past because he never got any run support. Now that he does, he's just toast. I would keep him on a strict 6 inning schedule. Let that work itself out for 3 or 4 starts then MAYBE push him a start or 2 in a row into the 7th... One players ego isn't worth a extra 5 to 10 losses a year. Maybe the Reds can limit the damage he does with inning restrictions. Third time thru a line up seems to be the kiss of death for him..

Also funny is 2 of Corderos 3 blown saves cost Mike Leake a win. The other was Cueto.

GIDP
05-25-2010, 01:30 AM
So has Harang regressed to Josh Fogg status? 5 or 6 innings and done? No matter how well he is pitching?

Hes gone an average of 6 innings per start this year. While not ideal the guy still is on pace for 200. Hes not pitching up to par but hes still giving a decent amount of innings.

texasdave
05-25-2010, 01:54 AM
Hes gone an average of 6 innings per start this year. While not ideal the guy still is on pace for 200. Hes not pitching up to par but hes still giving a decent amount of innings.

In 10 starts Harang has pitched 58.7 inning and thrown 1045 pitches. That works out to 104.5 pitches in 5.87 innings per start. Now at that rate he would throw 124.6 pitches per 7 innings. So he is either going to have to become more pitch efficient or he will be on the DL by the All-Star Game. I don't think a pitcher can average close to 125 pitches a start for too long. Unless he adds several MPH on his pitches I think he giving the Reds all he can. Which isn't enough.

sabometrics
05-25-2010, 02:01 AM
I had a crystallizing moment of my own when I saw him serving up meatball after meatball. He was lucky as hell this was the Pirates. If he takes that same stuff out there against most teams he doesn't make it to the fifth inning. Besides, why settle for mediocrity? Why shouldn't the Reds try to put the best five pitchers they can in the rotation? If your rationalization is that he is better than the flotsam and the jetsam that the Reds have run out there for the past ten years somehow makes tolerating Harang acceptable, then you are simply wrong. How many playoff appearances did the Reds make during that time? That is right, zero. If we have better alternatives down in Louisville, which I strongly believe is the case, then Harang should either go or be made the long man out of the pen. I am tired of fourth or fifth place finishes. We should aspire for more.

Fans always love to drool over their minor league pitchers, but I'm just not that high on any of our guys at this point to say that they can outperform Harang long-term. It's easy to be enamored with a player who most of us only know through scouting reports and box scores (or in Maloney's case a lukewarm 7 major league starts).

Chapman may have all the stuff in the world, but he definitely needs more seasoning in AAA - call me in July. We'll see how LeCure/Maloney/Wood does for a couple starts when whoever is its that gets the call comes up on Friday. I think it's a stretch to jump the gun and assume that any of those three can beat out Harang. Maybe Wood. Maybe. LeCure and Maloney just scream mediocrity along with a Rookie's normal learning curve.

NeilHamburger
05-25-2010, 02:31 AM
I know I should be happy after a win, but this was about as a disheartening win as I can remember, sans a major injury.

With Bailey down for a little while, the reds flat out need Harang to string together a month or so of good quality starts. He looked much worse then his line tonight, and if this continues he will get flat out massacred by good hitting teams in the coming weeks. With Bailey down, and Harang looking like he looked tonight I have some serious doubts over whether the Reds pitching will be good enough to keep them in it over the next month.

Either Harang or whoever pitches for Bailey is going to have to step up, you can't have 2/5's of your rotation getting killed. Also, this team is one Arroyo bad month away from being incredibly bad in the rotation.

A win is a win. But I'm pretty worried about the Reds over the next month.

ian_madden
05-25-2010, 10:32 AM
There was this crystallizing moment I had tonight when I saw Harangutang score 1st-to-home tonight while standing down the 3rd base line: "Why can't we just accept Harang for what he is now (a 5th starter) and relax?" Me included (as seen by my previous post).

There are much, much worse 5th starters out there. He hasn't pitched well, but he's pitched well enough to give the Reds a chance to win in all but 2 of his games. How often have we been able to say that about our worst starter in the last decade?

Oh yeah, I just remembered, there are 12.5 million reasons why we can't accept a mediocre Aaron Harang. Maybe we all should just forget about the money (it's not ours anyways, management can get really angry with him if they want) put things in perspective, and tolerate our acceptable 5th starter.

I agree, he is our 5th starter now. We are stuck with him in the rotation, but he is still getting the ball every 5th day, as if he was our ace. They need to rework the rotation so Bronson, Cueto, or Leake get the ball every 5th day.

GIDP
05-25-2010, 10:34 AM
I agree, he is our 5th starter now. We are stuck with him in the rotation, but he is still getting the ball every 5th day, as if he was our ace. They need to rework the rotation so Bronson, Cueto, or Leake get the ball every 5th day.

Every pitcher is getting the ball every 5th day right now. I dont understand your point.

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 07:44 PM
I had a crystallizing moment of my own when I saw him serving up meatball after meatball. He was lucky as hell this was the Pirates. If he takes that same stuff out there against most teams he doesn't make it to the fifth inning.

Fortunately, he gets Houston in his next start.

Also, fortunately, he misses the Cardinals series after that. (His next start will be against Strasberg and the Nationals.)

Kingspoint
05-25-2010, 07:49 PM
... a Rookie's normal learning curve.

That's just something every team has to allow to happen if they are going to use their farm systems. Teams that are rich like the Yankees (and you know the rest) don't have to do that. But, the REDS, being a small-market team, have to run their Rookies out there and let them fail their first two or three years before they can reap the benefits of their prime years when they have them at still a reasonable price.

Better to have a young pitcher going through one of those early years than to let a Veteran pitch poorly and waste the opportunity to grow a (hopefully) promising younger player.

texasdave
05-25-2010, 11:53 PM
That's just something every team has to allow to happen if they are going to use their farm systems. Teams that are rich like the Yankees (and you know the rest) don't have to do that. But, the REDS, being a small-market team, have to run their Rookies out there and let them fail their first two or three years before they can reap the benefits of their prime years when they have them at still a reasonable price.

Better to have a young pitcher going through one of those early years than to let a Veteran pitch poorly and waste the opportunity to grow a (hopefully) promising younger player.

Stop making sense.

Vottomatic
05-29-2010, 11:27 PM
Harang's first 4 starts of the season: 0-3, 8.31 e.r.a. 21.2 innings
Last 7 starts: 4-2, 4.09 e.r.a., 44 innings

webbbj
05-29-2010, 11:33 PM
idk where harang ranks among 5th starters but i think he is doing a fine job as the 5th starter. the 5th starter is just there to get you to the playoffs.

Reds
05-29-2010, 11:38 PM
but he's not the 5th starter unless I missed the memo

webbbj
05-29-2010, 11:44 PM
but he's not the 5th starter unless I missed the memo

he may not be the 5th starter officially but if the playoffs started tomorrow i guarantee he is not in the playoff rotation.

Reds
05-29-2010, 11:47 PM
i would hope not.

GIDP
05-29-2010, 11:48 PM
but he's not the 5th starter unless I missed the memo

Hes not paid like one but we have 2 guys making league minimum that are pitching like aces. .

Reds
05-29-2010, 11:49 PM
isn't he still set in rotation as #1 so he has a better chance of facing other aces?

GIDP
05-29-2010, 11:53 PM
isn't he still set in rotation as #1 so he has a better chance of facing other aces?

After the 1st few weeks of the season I think that basically goes out the window.

Reds
05-29-2010, 11:57 PM
yeah, but it seems like the allstar break would reset it all.. and would be a good time to change the order.

webbbj
05-30-2010, 12:00 AM
its pretty much random who aces will get matched up with. lots of guys have had to miss a start, off days are different, etc

defender
05-30-2010, 12:15 AM
Harang, at least for today, has as many wins as Leake.

sabometrics
05-30-2010, 12:23 AM
Even at All-Star break, if the pitchers continue performing this way I can't see the order really changing much. Harang will still be put in the front-end to soak up innings and the young guns will round it out to preserve their arms.

GIDP
05-30-2010, 12:39 AM
Harang, at least for today, has as many wins as Leake.

as if you need any more proof that that stat is pretty worthless.

Redeye fly
05-30-2010, 12:41 AM
What I did like to see, and what they mentioned in the post game when they talked to him is Harang seemed to be relaxed, happy, smiling, even excited about the way things are going for the team. I'm not saying we're going to see the Aaron Harang of 06-07 from here on out, but hopefully he is able to take some of those feelings to the mound his next start out, have another good start with hopefully a win to get to 5-5, and just build on it from there. I think he has lost a little something, so I'm not expecting miracles. But I think he's also a guy who when he's not going well and on top of that the offense isn't supporting him, he just lets things build up inside him, and when he does that he makes a mistake and it leaves the ballpark for a 2 or 3 run home run, and he pitches on the defensive from that point on because he's not sure if he's going to get 3 or 4 runs from his offense to get him off the hook. Hopefully he can catch the vibe and get that little bounce in his step that most of the other guys seem to have and at least be able to go out and there and give us 6 or 7 innings while allowing no more than 3 or 4 runs on a fairly consistent basis. That's nothing out of this world, but if he can just do that then he still brings something to the team, something to the rotation, and should keep us in pretty much every game he pitches.

Redeye fly
05-30-2010, 12:45 AM
And, if nothing else, if Volquez comes back healthy and pitches well and Harang is able to do what I just said, it increases his value to another team perhaps to where if you feel like you've got enough pitching to deal Harang for something else, whether we're in the hunt or out of the hunt, Harang doing what I just said makes it a little more likely to happen.

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 01:35 AM
Harang had a Game Score of 67 today, his best Start of the season. It was the paltry Astros, the worst-hitting team in the National League, but it still counts. He still stepped up.

Now, reality begins as the teams we begin facing are good ones and Harang will have to back this performance up with another good performance. It doesn't have to be nearly this good. 7 innings and 3 runs would be great.

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 02:52 AM
Jamieblog

#Reds reinstate Janish, option Sutton to Louisville...put Hanigan on DL ...select contract of Corky Miller...put Dickerson on 60-day.

sabometrics
05-30-2010, 03:29 AM
So Dickerson won't be an option until July? Did he have a set-back that I haven't heard about?

Regardless it's not an issue with Nix and Heisey performing anyways.

GIDP
05-30-2010, 03:46 AM
So Dickerson won't be an option until July? Did he have a set-back that I haven't heard about?

Regardless it's not an issue with Nix and Heisey performing anyways.

Hes on the 60 day. Its 60 days from when he went on the DL.

So he can come off the DL on June 30th or something along those lines.

I honestly doubt the guy will be much of a factor the rest of the year because his injury is known to sap guys of power. Although he didnt have a ton to begin with it will still probably show up in how people pitch him.

Vottomatic
05-30-2010, 08:18 AM
Brantley commented on the broadcast that Harang's fastball had more of a sinking motion, and noted that it was something Aaron had been working on.

Hopefully the changes he makes will continue to pay dividends.

I thought his changeup was very good today, keeping hitters off balance.

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 08:04 PM
So Dickerson won't be an option until July? Did he have a set-back that I haven't heard about?

Regardless it's not an issue with Nix and Heisey performing anyways.

It's just that it takes about a month to rehab from his injury once he starts swinging the bat, and that's just beginning right now.

Vottomatic
05-31-2010, 02:42 PM
It's just that it takes about a month to rehab from his injury once he starts swinging the bat, and that's just beginning right now.

Where's he going to play? The outfield is already crowded enough with Bruce, Stubbs, Heisey, Gomes and Nix. I don't see Dickerson getting any playing time honestly.

Kingspoint
05-31-2010, 05:16 PM
Where's he going to play? The outfield is already crowded enough with Bruce, Stubbs, Heisey, Gomes and Nix. I don't see Dickerson getting any playing time honestly.

You can always find room for a player with a high career OBP, Speed and Great Defense.

redhat
06-01-2010, 03:44 PM
[Harang is] not paid like one but we have 2 guys making league minimum that are pitching like aces. .
Actually, #5 starters are frequently older veterans whose only proven ability is eating innings. Those guys tend to get paid quite well.