PDA

View Full Version : I have stoped blaming Dusty



brm7675
05-25-2010, 12:03 PM
I now point the finger right at Walt and team ownership. How either of them can sit back and say that Dusty has any kind of clue on how to manage either shows they are idiots, or winning isn't that important. This team is 7 games over .500 in spite of Dusty. Last night he again just about cost this team another game. How in the hell do you leave Harrang in after he has allowed 2 baserunners in the 7th and is clearly struggling and tired and way past 100+ pitches? How in the hell do you not bench Oldlando after that horrible baserunning mistake? How in the hell do you not put janish in then or at least in the 8th/9th for defensive support? Dusty is an idiot and one step away from a senior center, but he is not to blame, it's time our GM and owner either wake up or move on.:thumbdown

arkimadee
05-25-2010, 12:14 PM
Come on man, the Reds are seven games over .500 and tied for first place. Sure Dusty has made some questionable moves but I'm sure that every other manager does as well. It wasn't a bad idea to keep Harang in last night. Harang probably told him that he could finish the inning. Plus the bullpen needed a break too. Could you see the kind of press it would be if we fired our manager that is in first place. If anything after this start I'd say the best move for Walt is to give Dusty an extension

Tommyjohn25
05-25-2010, 12:22 PM
I now point the finger right at Walt and team ownership. How either of them can sit back and say that Dusty has any kind of clue on how to manage either shows they are idiots, or winning isn't that important. This team is 7 games over .500 in spite of Dusty. Last night he again just about cost this team another game. How in the hell do you leave Harrang in after he has allowed 2 baserunners in the 7th and is clearly struggling and tired and way past 100+ pitches? How in the hell do you not bench Oldlando after that horrible baserunning mistake? How in the hell do you not put janish in then or at least in the 8th/9th for defensive support? Dusty is an idiot and one step away from a senior center, but he is not to blame, it's time our GM and owner either wake up or move on.:thumbdown

Excessive player/manager bashing, abusive language, and I'm tempted to say trolling, but I can't tell if this post is serious or not. So by my count, you just broke 3 forum rules in one post.

Jefferson24
05-25-2010, 12:29 PM
If anything after this start I'd say the best move for Walt is to give Dusty an extension

I'm not for firing Dusty on the spot, but an extension is way out of line at this point. It's not how you start but how you finish. Let the season run it's course and see what Dusty and the team can do with the good start. If they finish below 500 then fire him, if they make the playoffs extend him, anything in between then flip a coin.

Vottomatic
05-25-2010, 01:25 PM
I now point the finger right at Walt and team ownership. How either of them can sit back and say that Dusty has any kind of clue on how to manage either shows they are idiots, or winning isn't that important. This team is 7 games over .500 in spite of Dusty. Last night he again just about cost this team another game. How in the hell do you leave Harrang in after he has allowed 2 baserunners in the 7th and is clearly struggling and tired and way past 100+ pitches? How in the hell do you not bench Oldlando after that horrible baserunning mistake? How in the hell do you not put janish in then or at least in the 8th/9th for defensive support? Dusty is an idiot and one step away from a senior center, but he is not to blame, it's time our GM and owner either wake up or move on.:thumbdown

I have to admit. When Cabrera misplayed that ball hit right to him.......a routine grounder........I was stunned. When he ran to second on a pop up and didn't even attempt to get back to first........my reaction was........take him out and put in Janish. We're winning by 5 runs and Cabrera's head is not in the game. Besides, he just made too routine mistakes.

So I agree with this poster that Dusty let it slide and I completely think he was wrong to do so. Gotta send a message. And then to see the Pirates trim it to 7-5......made me even more upset.

What I see from Dusty is that he is too much of a player's manager and not enough of a game manager. He's more interested in not upsetting his players than he's interested in winning the game. But they seem to win despite his lackadaisical attitude about making changes.

Bringing in Herrera after allowing Del Rosario to pitch to one batter? Herrera is the human batting tee and showed it again last night.

I agree. I don't know how Castellini and Jocketty look themselves in the mirror with that hiring of Dusty Baker. I am not exaggerating when I say that the average knowledgeable fan could manage better than Dusty. Seriously.

And I know these comments seem crazy when we're tied for first place and 7 games over .500. But it's hard to ignore the managing mistakes even if we still come out with a win.

The Voice of IH
05-25-2010, 03:01 PM
the Reds can back Dusty because every year the guy has coached their record has impreved. is it his doing...up for debate.....but I can easily see why they are keeping him around.

PhillipsHead
05-25-2010, 03:18 PM
Dusty is not a good manager, but the fact that we keep winning and are tied for first makes this thread nothin but stupid, pointless, unnecessary bickering...

The Voice of IH
05-25-2010, 03:54 PM
Dusty is not a good manager, but the fact that we keep winning and are tied for first makes this thread nothin but stupid, pointless, unnecessary bickering...

:thumbup:

brm7675
05-25-2010, 04:47 PM
I am not trolling, this organization for the first time in a long time has very good talent and a good mix of young and vets, yet we continue to be held back by continually dumb moves by our manager. How anyone can sit and watch the games and not see this befuddles me. He cost this team the game last week in Atlanta, he just about cost them the game last night. The problem with the pitching is not the talent, but how they have been used. How many games did Dusty cost us by refusing to shuffle the lineup and get Stubbs out of the leadoff spot? Why is Cairo still on this team when it's clear he has no talent? Yes the Reds are 7 games over .500, my belief is this team could be 12-15 games over .500 with someone in charge who knew what he was doing.


Excessive player/manager bashing, abusive language, and I'm tempted to say trolling, but I can't tell if this post is serious or not. So by my count, you just broke 3 forum rules in one post.

brm7675
05-25-2010, 04:51 PM
We don't keep winning, we are over .500 but you have to ask yourself, with a manager who knows how to in game manage, where would this team be? Right now the Cards are slipping and have a tough next 6 games while we get pretty much 7 easier games. By next monday this team should have a 4-5 game lead over the Cards, however with Dusty in control of our team and LaRusa in charge of the Cards, I doubt if we are in first come next monday nad if we are it's only by a game or two.

Reds next 6 games all at home vs. Pirates and Stros
Cards next 6 games all on the road At SD then AT Cubs


Dusty is not a good manager, but the fact that we keep winning and are tied for first makes this thread nothin but stupid, pointless, unnecessary bickering...

sabometrics
05-25-2010, 05:08 PM
There's no way the Cards play bad enough that 4-5 game lead is even possible. The Padres and Cubs aren't that good.

NorrisHopper30
05-25-2010, 05:14 PM
There's no way the Cards play bad enough that 4-5 game lead is even possible. The Padres and Cubs aren't that good.

The Padres have the second best record in the NL...

PhillipsHead
05-25-2010, 05:15 PM
The Padres in Petco are a tough team. Their pitching locks it down at home, and the Cards will be lucky to win that series...

sabometrics
05-25-2010, 05:17 PM
They may be lucky to win the series in San Diego, but for us to be 4-5 games ahead they'd have to go like 1-5 or worse over the rest of the week, which is quite simply not happening.

brm7675
05-25-2010, 05:51 PM
SD has a better record right now then either us or the Cards, they are getting outstanding pitching and the games are in SD. Then the Cards have to board a plane after a late afternoon game in SD on thursday and fly all the way back to Chicago to play a friday afternoon game and probably another day game on Sat. Yes the Cubbies are not real good right now, but they always play the Cards tough and the Cards will be tired and are not playing good ball right now,.


There's no way the Cards play bad enough that 4-5 game lead is even possible. The Padres and Cubs aren't that good.

defender
05-25-2010, 07:39 PM
Cabrera is not playing today. Does Baker get any credit for that?

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 05:39 AM
Cabrera is not playing today. Does Baker get any credit for that?

No, because he used him to pinch-hit for a better hitting Janish and Cabrera made the last out of the game.

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 08:21 AM
No, because he used him to pinch-hit for a better hitting Janish and Cabrera made the last out of the game.

Are you serious? Cabrera has been a machine at the plate the month of May. Not to mention the guy has game up with a lot of clutch hits this season. We can say all day that Janish is a better defender than Cabrera, cause he is, but he is not a better hitter.

brm7675
05-26-2010, 11:55 AM
But Cabrera is not a good PH, his numbers at that position are horrible.


Are you serious? Cabrera has been a machine at the plate the month of May. Not to mention the guy has game up with a lot of clutch hits this season. We can say all day that Janish is a better defender than Cabrera, cause he is, but he is not a better hitter.

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 06:35 PM
But Cabrera is not a good PH, his numbers at that position are horrible.

His "numbers" are out of 10 PH ab's in his career. 0-10, 3-10, or 5-10 is irrelevant when the sample size is .1% of his professional At Bats.

cbowen2112
05-26-2010, 07:26 PM
Cairo batting second tonight. So much for 1st place.:thumbdown

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 07:32 PM
Are you serious? Cabrera has been a machine at the plate the month of May. Not to mention the guy has game up with a lot of clutch hits this season. We can say all day that Janish is a better defender than Cabrera, cause he is, but he is not a better hitter.

Cabrera is not a good pinch-hitter.

And, the only type of Machine Cabrera could be is an out-machine as proved by that at-bat of his.

Where Cabrera has done well this season is in the #1 hole in the order. But, everywhere else, he's been terrible, just terrible.

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 07:33 PM
His "numbers" are out of 10 PH ab's in his career. 0-10, 3-10, or 5-10 is irrelevant when the sample size is .1% of his professional At Bats.

That's not irrelevant when you look at how he's hit the last two years whenever he's at the plate.

What does matter is that Janish has been hitting well. He already had a hit on the night in just 2 at-bats. No reason to pinch-hit for him with a batter as terrible as Cabrera.

1990REDS
05-26-2010, 07:36 PM
Why all the OCab hate? I think hes has a pretty good year or at least better than i thought.

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 07:46 PM
Why all the OCab hate? I think hes has a pretty good year or at least better than i thought.

There's no hatred of OCab. He is what he is....a poor OBP guy with poor defense, who's stepped up his game this season when batting in the #1 hole and who's come through with some key at-bats for the team this season.

It's about Dusty pinch-hitting for Janish, who's done nothing but hit this season, and who already had a hit on the night. I also believe that Dusty already knew that Janish's grandmother had passed away (Sutton didn't play yesterday for Louisville), yet Dusty removes Janish....one more "hate" on Janish by Baker. Baker has treated Janish like crap all season, rarely using him in situations where Janish obviously could have helped this team. That Cairo has had as much, if not more playing time than Janish is ridiculous. Baker should be berated for it.

Instead of giving Janish a chance to "help" the team and show his worth, he removes him, embarrassing him, lowering his confidence, etc. When Nix lost the game for the REDS in Atlanta, Baker started Nix the next two games. Baker treats young players like crap and coddles Veterans. It's not a good mix and leads to too many losses where there should have been wins (and stunts the growth of players).

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 10:25 PM
That's not irrelevant when you look at how he's hit the last two years whenever he's at the plate.

What does matter is that Janish has been hitting well. He already had a hit on the night in just 2 at-bats. No reason to pinch-hit for him with a batter as terrible as Cabrera.

2008 - .285
2009 - .280
2010 - .279 (May .313/.361/.765)

This team would not be close to where they currently are this season WITHOUT Cabrera. He drove in runs early in the season when the offense was slumping, he drove in runs when they mixed things up and he hit 6th, now they call on him to be leadoff and he has responded by getting on base at a .380 clip. How is that terrible?

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 10:31 PM
2008 - .285
2009 - .280
2010 - .279 (May .313/.361/.765)

This team would not be close to where they currently are this season WITHOUT Cabrera. He drove in runs early in the season when the offense was slumping, he drove in runs when they mixed things up and he hit 6th, now they call on him to be leadoff and he has responded by getting on base at a .380 clip. How is that terrible?

His at-bats, last year and this year, when he wasn't leading off have been terrible. Don't give me his "average", as we all know that's a useless stat, unless exactly what you need at the time is a single.

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 10:47 PM
There's no hatred of OCab. He is what he is....a poor OBP guy with poor defense, who's stepped up his game this season when batting in the #1 hole and who's come through with some key at-bats for the team this season.

Sounds to me like someone who has been an integral part of helping this club win ball games.


It's about Dusty pinch-hitting for Janish, who's done nothing but hit this season, and who already had a hit on the night.

Janish has done nothing but hit? He is hitting .276 in 29 ab's... that's solid, but I wouldn't call that doing nothing but hitting.


I also believe that Dusty already knew that Janish's grandmother had passed away (Sutton didn't play yesterday for Louisville), yet Dusty removes Janish....one more "hate" on Janish by Baker. Baker has treated Janish like crap all season, rarely using him in situations where Janish obviously could have helped this team. That Cairo has had as much, if not more playing time than Janish is ridiculous. Baker should be berated for it.

Pretty bold accusation to make there. And if Dusty knew of this, could it be that Janish was too shaken up to focus on hitting? I highly, highly doubt Dusty pulled him because he found out his grandmother died, Dusty is not some kind of crude, cold-hearted individual like that. Now Janish should be used as a late inning replacement and a spot start here and there, but OCab has given Dusty no reason to sit him.



Instead of giving Janish a chance to "help" the team and show his worth, he removes him, embarrassing him, lowering his confidence, etc. When Nix lost the game for the REDS in Atlanta, Baker started Nix the next two games. Baker treats young players like crap and coddles Veterans. It's not a good mix and leads to too many losses where there should have been wins (and stunts the growth of players).

Janish helped the team by going 1-2 with a BB. If Janish is embarrased because someone was called into pinch hit for him, than he must have a pretty big ego, its not like a pitcher was brought into pinch hit for him. Who cares who "helps" the team and who doesn't if the team is winning. OCab didn't get on base last night and we didn't win, but I can tell you 99 times out of 100 I want Cabrera at the plate in the 9th inning against the other teams closer as compared to Janish. You mention the Nix example, Janish didn't lose a game for us, so its comparing two different situations, not to mention he is on leave now. Cairo has 34 PA's to Janish's 34 PA's before tonight. Dusty isn't treating anyone like crap, Rolen, OCab, and Phillips are producing, and if they are able to play than they should play, that's why they are starters.

And FWIW, so far this season and most of last, anytime we had a rookie called up from AAA such as DRH, Stubbs, Heisey, a majority of the time they have produced, and this year have helped us win ball games. Which makes it obvious Dusty hates young guys and treats them like dirt. Dusty probably wouldn't even treat Hitler like dirt.


Janish is 27 going on 28, its not like we have a 20 year old Starlin Castro sitting on our bench being blocked by OCab. We have a 27 year old AAAA player with a slick glove who's major league future is a part time player at best.

And whatever Dusty is doing, we have won a lot of games that we shouldn't have. How many wins have we had in our final at-bat? How many times have we came from behind late when the other team had the opportunity to slam the door? Quite a few.

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 10:54 PM
His at-bats, last year and this year, when he wasn't leading off have been terrible. Don't give me his "average", as we all know that's a useless stat, unless exactly what you need at the time is a single.

Taveras at-bats were useless. Cabreras 15 RBI's in 18 games in the 2 spot sure were useless. Especially when we were struggling to score runs. Seriously, just by reading your posts one would get the vibe Cabrera is worse than Willy T.

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 11:14 PM
Janish has done nothing but hit? He is hitting .276 in 29 ab's... that's solid, but I wouldn't call that doing nothing but hitting.





Don't cherry pick stats, please. Post his OBP, his SLG, and his OPS, which are all more important than his Average.

Vottomatic
05-26-2010, 11:17 PM
Kids, kids, kids..............

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 11:20 PM
Taveras at-bats were useless. Cabreras 15 RBI's in 18 games in the 2 spot sure were useless. Especially when we were struggling to score runs. Seriously, just by reading your posts one would get the vibe Cabrera is worse than Willy T.

Not at all. As I've said, he's been excellent in the #1 hole. Don't forget this conversation is about his being used as a pinch-hitter in that situation last night. That was the wrong move. Janish should have been given that opportunity.

By the way, on the negative side of Cabrera is the fact that no player has played Shortstop worse in the Major Leagues than he has this season. Since that is the most important position defensively, he's a real negative to the pitching staff, where Janish would be a real positive to the pitching staff.

A proper amount of playing time disbursement for Janish and Cabrera would be for Janish to get 2 starts per week at SS, even during 6-game weeks. Janish should also be a late-inning replacement for Cabrera one or two more times per week.

There's no Shortstop with worse range in the Major Leagues.

Look under the category "OOZ". That's balls that Cabrera has gotten to outside of his zone, which his 5 total are half of the next-to-worst player in the Majors. Again, he has HALF of the next-to-worst player in the Majors.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2010&month=0

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 11:23 PM
And whatever Dusty is doing, we have won a lot of games that we shouldn't have. How many wins have we had in our final at-bat? How many times have we came from behind late when the other team had the opportunity to slam the door? Quite a few.

That's because we have good starting pitching. If we had a better Shortstop, we'd have great starting pitching.

We're always in games because of our good starting pitching. That's why we win a lot of games in our last at-bats. That's going to end as Duhsty continues to overuse Rhodes and Cordero.

Kingspoint
05-26-2010, 11:33 PM
Sounds to me like someone who has been an integral part of helping this club win ball games.


Yes. I think so.

Griffey012
05-26-2010, 11:39 PM
Don't cherry pick stats, please. Post his OBP, his SLG, and his OPS, which are all more important than his Average.

.276/.382/.483/.865 in 29 AB's and 34 PA's. Which make the numbers highly volatile.

1 more single: .310/.411/.517/.928
1 less single : .241/.352/.448/.800

Do it with a double and it's even more volatile.

I won't bother with the career numbers.

Kingspoint
05-27-2010, 12:16 AM
.276/.382/.483/.865 in 29 AB's and 34 PA's. Which make the numbers highly volatile.

1 more single: .310/.411/.517/.928
1 less single : .241/.352/.448/.800

Do it with a double and it's even more volatile.

I won't bother with the career numbers.

Which brings up another topic. Dusty's wasting away his season and making him rusty. It's amazing he's been able to put up the good numbers he has put up so far the way he's being used.

gedred69
05-27-2010, 12:29 AM
The multiple directions Baker is getting attacked from on this thread is so staggering, my head is severely hurting trying to make sense of it all. Reds are in 1st place, for any number of reasons, Take your favorite pick, I really don't care which anyone chooses. I'm ambivalent on Dusty, but seems I recall a closed door meeting a few weeks ago where it was reported he ripped into players, and Hey! Whatta' ya' know? they've been pretty good since then.......

Kingspoint
05-27-2010, 12:41 AM
The multiple directions Baker is getting attacked from on this thread is so staggering, my head is severely hurting trying to make sense of it all. Reds are in 1st place, for any number of reasons, Take your favorite pick, I really don't care which anyone chooses. I'm ambivalent on Dusty, but seems I recall a closed door meeting a few weeks ago where it was reported he ripped into players, and Hey! Whatta' ya' know? they've been pretty good since then.......

They were already hitting before that meeting. (They were 2nd in the NL in every Offensive Category over the last 7 games.)

It was the starting rotation that changed. The relievers have done worse since that closed-door meeting.

I think what changed was three days later after an off-day and Harang began the 5th turn of the rotation on the season. Harang then pitched well (for him). Leake followed that up with his usual good performance. Arroyo finally pitched well after some bad efforts. Cueto's turn and he finally lasted more than 5 innings. Bailey then took the ball and also turned in a good performance (for him at the time). It was those 5 starts in a row by the 5 starters all working together to one-up the next guy. That, to me, is what began the surge that the REDS have been on. The next rotation series was improved upon by each of the 5 pitchers. You get that kind of effort and every thing else falls into place.

It wasn't Baker.

If there's a coach to give credit to, it was Bryan Price.

I know that in any organization, when you have a "closed-door" meeting, then there are "sub-meetings" after that one where the individual managers go over the specifics of their division/section. Bryan Price and the Starters probably had their own meeting afterwards the same day or the next day.

Griffey012
05-27-2010, 06:31 PM
They were already hitting before that meeting. (They were 2nd in the NL in every Offensive Category over the last 7 games.)

It was the starting rotation that changed. The relievers have done worse since that closed-door meeting.

I think what changed was three days later after an off-day and Harang began the 5th turn of the rotation on the season. Harang then pitched well (for him). Leake followed that up with his usual good performance. Arroyo finally pitched well after some bad efforts. Cueto's turn and he finally lasted more than 5 innings. Bailey then took the ball and also turned in a good performance (for him at the time). It was those 5 starts in a row by the 5 starters all working together to one-up the next guy. That, to me, is what began the surge that the REDS have been on. The next rotation series was improved upon by each of the 5 pitchers. You get that kind of effort and every thing else falls into place.

It wasn't Baker.

If there's a coach to give credit to, it was Bryan Price.

I know that in any organization, when you have a "closed-door" meeting, then there are "sub-meetings" after that one where the individual managers go over the specifics of their division/section. Bryan Price and the Starters probably had their own meeting afterwards the same day or the next day.

Is Dusty allowed to just get a wee-bit of credit? For anything?

texasdave
05-27-2010, 06:37 PM
Is Dusty allowed to just get a wee-bit of credit? For anything?

I thought starting Cairo last night was a mistake, but it worked out. Props to Dusty. Cairo has hit in his last two starts, and I am all about sticking with the hot hand, so let it ride, Dusty.

Kingspoint
05-27-2010, 06:55 PM
Is Dusty allowed to just get a wee-bit of credit? For anything?

I give him credit every time I see an opportunity, and I'll continue to do so.

brm7675
05-28-2010, 12:31 PM
No.


Is Dusty allowed to just get a wee-bit of credit? For anything?

Hanover
05-28-2010, 12:40 PM
Everyone who rips on Dusty constantly doesn't have a clue how to run a major league franchise.

I'm not saying there aren't things I disagree with, but come on. This is ridiculous.

kevin w
05-28-2010, 01:06 PM
Everyone who rips on Dusty constantly doesn't have a clue how to run a major league franchise.

I'm not saying there aren't things I disagree with, but come on. This is ridiculous.

Exactly. Not a good time to be a Baker hater

brm7675
05-28-2010, 01:59 PM
Why? He continues to make dumb moves, last night another prime example as he leaves an injuried player in the game which could have resulted in runs being scored or even worse, the player making the injury worse and then ending up on the DL.


Exactly. Not a good time to be a Baker hater

Kingspoint
05-28-2010, 05:18 PM
Exactly. Not a good time to be a Baker hater.

I love Bakers....Anita, Josephine, Bacon-Chives-and-Butter, Norm, and others.....just not Duhsty.

Lot's of young people like to see everything in "Black and White", "Love or Hate". As you get older in the world, and wiser (past your 40's), you'll learn that none of that exists. You'll find that you'll have likes and dislikes about the same subject, and that it's alright to have both.

Duhsty has some good qualities (of which I have praised him at least 100 times on them). He has some bad ones, though, too (of which I have pointed them out at least 100 times). His bad ones outweigh his good ones most of the time.

BurgervilleBuck
05-28-2010, 11:23 PM
Why? He continues to make dumb moves, last night another prime example as he leaves an injuried player in the game which could have resulted in runs being scored or even worse, the player making the injury worse and then ending up on the DL.
He didn't leave an "injuried" player in or even an injured player since BP is playing tonight. Phillips was cramping and didn't want to come out. And you know what? They got out of the inning and won the game.

ILoveWilly
05-30-2010, 05:34 PM
I'll bump this thread since for some stupid reason my thread got locked, and post my post.

Dusty cost us the game because we had runners on 1st and 2nd, no one out, and bunting with Johnny Gomes as the lead runner, while we have someone on the bench who is exponentially faster in Drew Stubbs. Ramon Hernandez bunted, Gomes was out at third on a bang bang play that Stubbs would have beat out pretty easily.

So, instead of bases loaded no one out, it was one out and runners on first and second. This was a game we completely threw away due to Dusty's stupidity.

Chalk this up as #1 on the count of Dusty losses as of May 30, 2010

Mutaman
05-30-2010, 05:39 PM
I guess the Reds must have lost today so some second guessing genius will call for Baker to be fired.

ILoveWilly
05-30-2010, 05:43 PM
I guess the Reds must have lost today so some second guessing genius will call for Baker to be fired.

Feel free to explain to me how he did not lose the game us? I assumed as soon as Gomes got on that he was going to be pinch run for. Heck, even Gomes himself was looking back towards the dugout for a potential pinch runner!

Feel free to explain to me how exactly Dusty did not cost us this game.

GIDP
05-30-2010, 05:43 PM
Joey Votto being so hurt that he cant pinch hit is beyond a problem right now. He is the reason why Dusty didnt pinch run with Stubbs.

Mutaman
05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
Joey Votto being so hurt that he cant pinch hit is beyond a problem right now. He is the reason why Dusty didnt pinch run with Stubbs.


Dam the logic, full spleen ahead. There's no sense trying to explain things to a second guesser- the Reds lost so Dusty must be blamed.

sabometrics
05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
Save your Dusty hate for another day man, when your pitchers shut the opposition out for 9 and you can't even to muster up one run, it's all on the batters.

ILoveWilly
05-30-2010, 05:48 PM
Joey Votto being so hurt that he cant pinch hit is beyond a problem right now. He is the reason why Dusty didnt pinch run with Stubbs.

That's not an excuse, we used two pinch hitters in a row! Heck, Owings could have just hit for himself and been fine even. I like our chances better with bases loaded, no one out, needing a sac fly with Rolen and Owings up, more than 1 out, Rolen and Stubbs up, don't you think?

Votto or no Votto, Dusty blew this game. There's no reason why ones of the slowest base runners should be kept in the game as the winning run when you have one of the faster guys around sitting on the bench.

ILoveWilly
05-30-2010, 05:54 PM
Save your Dusty hate for another day man, when your pitchers shut the opposition out for 9 and you can't even to muster up one run, it's all on the batters.

So what about the rest of the game? That doesn't excuse HORRIBLE managing. You can point to doing this or that earlier in any games that has happened in any sport.

It's no different in stupidity than a basketball coach drawing a play for something like having your center shoot a 3 as a last second play, or a football team running the option with Brett Favre on 4th and 15. Just because the rest of the game you can point to things that could have gone differently doesn't excuse complete horrible game management at the end of the game.

Bottom line is, we had a golden chance to win the game, and all Dusty had to do was put Stubbs in for Gomes, and there was a 90% shot we win. ONE simple move. Especially going in knowing you were going to bunt, sheesh! How does it not cross someone's mind that Gomes would get thrown out there, seriously?

It was basically the stupidest move that could be done there. Well, maybe not, he could have tried to do a double steal or something, but I guess we should pat Dusty on the back for not being that incompetent, huh? :rolleyes:

redsrolen
05-30-2010, 06:05 PM
I actually like Dusty for the most part,he has some great qualities and the players love him and will play hard for him!!! However, if you are going to use one of your best pitchers then follow it up with a better closer! Maybe you just can't have votto and Rolen out at the same time! Maybe with a big lead last night, take Rolen out early and let him play about 4 innings today!!!

Quatitos
05-30-2010, 06:09 PM
I'll bump this thread since for some stupid reason my thread got locked, and post my post.


Shouldn't that tell you something, like don't post it anywhere else?

Vottomatic
05-30-2010, 07:09 PM
Geez, I'm no Dusty fan, but the nitpicking is getting ridiculous. Good pitching for 9 innings and we can't muster a run after scoring 27 in the previous 2 games? Obviously we used all we had in the first 2 games because we did squat today.

It's gonna happen.

kfm
05-30-2010, 07:19 PM
Reds lose must attack Dusty, Reds win must attack Dusty.

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 08:10 PM
If I were to go to a game in Cincinnati, I would never go to a game on Sunday. You're guaranteed to see the worst lineup Duhsty can throw out there every time.

ILoveWilly
05-30-2010, 11:33 PM
Shouldn't that tell you something, like don't post it anywhere else?

Yeah, censoring opinions just because I don't want to kiss Dusty's ass ... makes a ton of sense. :rolleyes:

Funny thing is, no one even has come up with a counter argument as to anything I said being wrong. Heck, in the game threads on both forums people brought it up.

Quatitos
05-31-2010, 12:03 AM
Yeah, censoring opinions just because I don't want to kiss Dusty's ass ... makes a ton of sense. :rolleyes:

Funny thing is, no one even has come up with a counter argument as to anything I said being wrong. Heck, in the game threads on both forums people brought it up.

Okay fine, I will bite even though you are really nitpicking for reasons to beat on dusty.


I'll bump this thread since for some stupid reason my thread got locked, and post my post.

Dusty cost us the game because we had runners on 1st and 2nd, no one out, and bunting with Johnny Gomes as the lead runner, while we have someone on the bench who is exponentially faster in Drew Stubbs. Ramon Hernandez bunted, Gomes was out at third on a bang bang play that Stubbs would have beat out pretty easily.

So, instead of bases loaded no one out, it was one out and runners on first and second. This was a game we completely threw away due to Dusty's stupidity.

Chalk this up as #1 on the count of Dusty losses as of May 30, 2010

First, if there is a properly executed bunt, it is high percentage play to advance the runner from second to third, no matter how slow the player on second is. It was not that good of a bunt, and I would expect better of Ramon. I will give you the fact that if Stubbs were running, then he might not have been out and the play has a higher chance of success, but then you can't use Stubbs to pinch hit.

Second, dusty is dealing with a mildly shortened bench for the game, with Votto's status still undetermined and not wanting to pinch hit with Owings in case you go to extra innings . With a shorter bench, and the possibility, even if Dusty presses all the right buttons, this game might go to extra innings, so you don't want to exhaust all of your options off the bench. For reference, at the time Ramon was bunting, the bench consisted of Rolen, Stubbs, Votto, and Corky. Also take into account the pitcher spot was 2 spots after Ramon, so it was going to have to be a pinch hitter.

Third, Stubbs over the last 8 games before today was posting a whopping 1.242 OPS. What a waste then to use him as just a pinch runner, especially in that occasion when a properly laid down bunt is a high percentage play even with Gomes running. I dunno about you, but I would rather give him a chance to knock in some of these runs, and I'm sure that is what dusty was thinking.

Fourth, even if you don't agree with the not pinch running Stubbs, Rolen and Cabrera failed to get hits anyways with a runner still in scoring position. There might have been a higher probability of success running Stubbs, but like the rest of the game, hitters just failed to execute when it mattered most today.

There is plenty of blame to go around and the strategy employed was not inherently flawed in any way. Dusty did not single handedly cause us to lose this game. If you want to continue to think so, then by all means, you are free to your opinion, just try not to beat the horse, you have already killed it.

macro
05-31-2010, 12:32 AM
Yeah, censoring opinions just because I don't want to kiss Dusty's ass ... makes a ton of sense. :rolleyes:


Um, no one was/is censoring your opinion. Feel free to beat the dead horse incessantly. Just asking that you post them in one of the many existing threads already created on this subject:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/search.php?searchid=422880

Kingspoint
05-31-2010, 08:19 PM
I blame Dusty Baker for everything, including bad weather, the economy, the Gulf Oil issue, 911, the tensions between Muslims and Jews, poverty, over-population, global-warming, and polluted oceans.

Dusty Baker is the Anti-Christ!

Vottomatic
05-31-2010, 08:21 PM
I blame him for batting pitcher Carlos Fisher in the 6th inning today (Memorial Day). Basically sent a message to his players that he's giving up. Terrible decision.

Vottomatic
05-31-2010, 10:02 PM
I've stopped blaming Dusty and started blaming Mike Lincoln and Carlos Fisher. Fisher needs to swing a better bat. :eek:

Kingspoint
06-01-2010, 03:07 AM
I blame him for batting pitcher Carlos Fisher in the 6th inning today (Memorial Day). Basically sent a message to his players that he's giving up. Terrible decision.

It was such a blatant abuse of management it's as if Duhsty was throwing a childish tantrum because Walt had a meeting with him about his overuse of Rhodes, Masset and Cordero.

A child's tantrum is the only thing that explains Duhsty's behavior.

And, that looked like Fisher's 2nd career at-bat. He struck out his first time (last year), too.

Kingspoint
06-01-2010, 03:36 AM
In 32 combined career Minor League and Major League Plate Appearances, Carlos Fisher successfully laid down a bunt EXACTLY ONE TIME before that horrible plate appearance. (He struck out 15 times.)

That's one time Dusty. You obviously have never seen the guy bunt before, so why would you put him up there in that position?

What's worse than all of this is that he only had 3 Plate Appearances since 2007.....One Plate Appearance in 2008, and two in 2009.

GIDP
06-01-2010, 03:49 AM
In 32 combined career Minor League and Major League Plate Appearances, Carlos Fisher successfully laid down a bunt EXACTLY ONE TIME before that horrible plate appearance. (He struck out 15 times.)

That's one time Dusty. You obviously have never seen the guy bunt before, so why would you put him up there in that position?

What's worse than all of this is that he only had 3 Plate Appearances since 2007.....One Plate Appearance in 2008, and two in 2009.

Of that move I found it funny that they thought the chances Fisher could lay down a bunt was higher than Stubbs stealing a bag. Seriously would anyone other than Dusty think that was possible? Stealing off Garcia might have got Stubbs thrown out but trying to get Fisher to bunt probably had a 0% chance of succeeding in every situation. Chances that Stubbs steals that bag are at least 50% and thats being conservative.

brm7675
06-01-2010, 11:34 AM
Like my thread says, I have stopped blaming Dusty, the problem here isn't Dusty, it Walt and the ownership group that allows him to stay in that position. I mean really was there a reason why we had to play short handed over the weekend or last night? Other teams carry 25 players who can play, not the Reds....

Fon Duc Tow
06-01-2010, 12:21 PM
I blame Dusty Baker for combining all the threads here that bash Dusty Baker.

Vottomatic
06-01-2010, 12:54 PM
I blame Dusty Baker for combining all the threads here that bash Dusty Baker.

I blame Nancy Zimpher. :p: :D

Jack Burton
06-01-2010, 01:38 PM
Really unacceptable what he pulled yesterday

BurgervilleBuck
06-01-2010, 02:38 PM
In 32 combined career Minor League and Major League Plate Appearances, Carlos Fisher successfully laid down a bunt EXACTLY ONE TIME before that horrible plate appearance. (He struck out 15 times.)

That's one time Dusty. You obviously have never seen the guy bunt before, so why would you put him up there in that position?
Maybe Dusty was thinking the Law of Averages would be on his side yesterday.;)

Look, as much as I was trying to calm things down yesterday in the GDT, even I think it's time for Dusty to go ruin another MLB team.

redsrolen
06-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Dusty didn't want to use anymore pitchers than he had to!!I would agree with you if we had played any better at all! I do think it's pretty sad though if you are a pitcher in the National L.,I might take the time to seek out a batting coach, so I can help the team in just this situation!