PDA

View Full Version : Potential bullpen? Wow



NorrisHopper30
05-29-2010, 04:30 PM
We're all talking about adding a bullpen arm for the playoff push, but think about this.

I think Aroldis Chapman and Edinson Volquez will come up as bullpen relief rather than starters, especially if the SP continue their run. Can you imagine a 7th-9th with the likes of Volquez, Rhodes, Chapman and Cordero?

I'm excited to see that..

bellhead
05-29-2010, 04:44 PM
Both are starting pitchers. Chapman shouldn't be allowed to go over the 150 inning mark this year along with Leake. Volquez should be available at the time you are shutting Leake down for the year. Chapman is being groomed to be a #1 15 year all star pitcher, there is no way you take any chance with his arm.

ILoveWilly
05-29-2010, 05:31 PM
I think we could trade to get some better pen help as well. Middle relief is usually cheap come trade deadline, and I would love to get another Rhodes type veteran presence in there.

nemesis
05-29-2010, 05:35 PM
Both are starting pitchers. Chapman shouldn't be allowed to go over the 150 inning mark this year along with Leake. Volquez should be available at the time you are shutting Leake down for the year. Chapman is being groomed to be a #1 15 year all star pitcher, there is no way you take any chance with his arm.

Leake went 150 in college last year plus another 25 or so in Winterball.

That means he could be good for 190ish or so. But in the end it all comes down to pitch counts. I would pull him at 100 pitches every game. Chapman should be good to 150 to 175. Arm was well rested coming into this season. But once again pitch counts are key. If he is going 100 pitches for 5 innings his # of innings should be lower.

scott91575
05-29-2010, 09:13 PM
Leake went 150 in college last year plus another 25 or so in Winterball.

That means he could be good for 190ish or so. But in the end it all comes down to pitch counts. I would pull him at 100 pitches every game. Chapman should be good to 150 to 175. Arm was well rested coming into this season. But once again pitch counts are key. If he is going 100 pitches for 5 innings his # of innings should be lower.

Leake had some arm issues last year with that workload. I would keep him around 170, and I think the Reds agree.

150 for Chapman would be about right.

NorrisHopper30
05-29-2010, 09:38 PM
Would you rather have Aroldis dominate AAA all year or bring him up in the ML bullpen?

Vottomatic
05-29-2010, 09:41 PM
Would you rather have Aroldis dominate AAA all year or bring him up in the ML bullpen?

Depends on how dominant he becomes.

scott91575
05-29-2010, 09:49 PM
Would you rather have Aroldis dominate AAA all year or bring him up in the ML bullpen?

He is not dominating every start this year, so it won't be all year. He still has control issues, and throws too many pitches. He still has some learning to do. He may be "close," but he is not there just yet. Until he proves he can be consistent I would not call him up. Plus putting him in the bullpen just screws him up. Right now he is looking good for a spot in the rotation next year. I would not mess with that for something you can get in the trade market in July.

Vottomatic
05-29-2010, 09:51 PM
I read somewhere that the game he gave up 8 runs, that they had a late flight and he didn't sleep well, according to Mario Soto. So the organization kind of wrote that one off as him not concentrating well.

webbbj
05-29-2010, 10:41 PM
are the reds really just gonna shut down leake at 170 innings? what if he continues to dominate and were in 1st place in august in a close race are we just gonna say oh well mike leake ur perfectly healthy and our best pitcher but your services are not needed for the rest of this year, thank you. i mean it sounds like a nice plan if your not contending but when you got a legitimate chance at doing something special can you really just shut him down?

unless the plan is just have him go every other start until september then he can get his groove back going every 5th day for a possible playoff debut.

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 12:39 AM
Burton will get here before Chapman will, and Bray will get here before Volquez will.

There's lot's to be positive about.

And, Cordero, Masset and Rhodes each had the last two nights off!

Mr Larkin
05-30-2010, 10:16 AM
Middle relief is usually cheap come trade deadline.

Try telling that to Wayne K. It cost him his job.

1990REDS
05-30-2010, 11:09 AM
are the reds really just gonna shut down leake at 170 innings? what if he continues to dominate and were in 1st place in august in a close race are we just gonna say oh well mike leake ur perfectly healthy and our best pitcher but your services are not needed for the rest of this year, thank you. i mean it sounds like a nice plan if your not contending but when you got a legitimate chance at doing something special can you really just shut him down?

unless the plan is just have him go every other start until september then he can get his groove back going every 5th day for a possible playoff debut.

i was thinkin about that to. what if august rolls around and we got like a 2 game lead and hes been our best pitcher all year. hasnt dusty proven in chicago with wood and prior that hes not gonna shut him down. look how that worked out. hopefully dusty learned and will take it easy on leake.

sabometrics
05-30-2010, 06:07 PM
i was thinkin about that to. what if august rolls around and we got like a 2 game lead and hes been our best pitcher all year. hasnt dusty proven in chicago with wood and prior that hes not gonna shut him down. look how that worked out. hopefully dusty learned and will take it easy on leake.

There's no way Leakes inning cap (or lack there of) is solely Dusty's decision. Dusty was allowed to pitch Wood and Prior every 5th day because the Cubs brass was willing to do anything to get to the series. That's where Walt and Dusty have to evaluate the situation and make the right call together. Things have been bad around here, but #1) we don't have near the same level of desperation surrounding any possible race for the playoffs/pennant, and #2) we have the depth in the organization to hopefully do a decent job of replacing a Leake down the stretch (be it Chapman, Wood, or whoever).

Kingspoint
05-30-2010, 07:00 PM
We're all talking about adding a bullpen arm for the playoff push.

Not all of us.

Certainly not me.

gedred69
05-30-2010, 11:04 PM
The hope is that Burton will work his problems out, and Bray is ready soon. Period. Lincoln isn't even a shadow of 2 years ago, Fisher is a fill-in waiting for Burton/Bray, Herrara is a situational guy only, and Masset is struggling. Yep, Burton and Bray are needed to fill the need.

scott91575
05-31-2010, 07:46 AM
are the reds really just gonna shut down leake at 170 innings? what if he continues to dominate and were in 1st place in august in a close race are we just gonna say oh well mike leake ur perfectly healthy and our best pitcher but your services are not needed for the rest of this year, thank you. i mean it sounds like a nice plan if your not contending but when you got a legitimate chance at doing something special can you really just shut him down?

unless the plan is just have him go every other start until september then he can get his groove back going every 5th day for a possible playoff debut.

Look to what the Tigers did in 2006. Verlander was in that situation. The Tigers were making a push for the World Series, and Verlander as a rookie was pitching great. Instead of shutting him down they skipped a few of his starts. That is what I think the Reds would do with Leake. Verlander ended up throwing more innings than the Tigers would have liked, but they minimized the damage.

ian_madden
05-31-2010, 08:49 AM
I agree with Kingspoint. I think we have the tools in house for the playoffs. There is no need for a trade right now. But that could change if Bray and Burton falter when they get here.

I also think we need to preserve leake for a potential playoff push and more importantly the future. I do not want to mortgage our and his future for a playoff push.

webbbj
05-31-2010, 11:04 AM
well leake is at 66 IP at 1/3 mark in the season. at this pace he should get to 198 IP. but i would start throwing him out there every other start until the end of july.

Old NDN
05-31-2010, 11:53 AM
There are a lot of MLB pitchers who started careers as middle relief guys. I see no reason why Capman and/or Volquez couldn't ease their way into that role for the remainder of this season. I'm not sold on Lincoln, Herrara, Fisher, Bray, Burton, etc. But, I don't see better options at L'ville. Volquez and Chapman would certainly bring some electricity to the pitching staff, albeit on a limited basis.

Krawhitham
05-31-2010, 12:45 PM
Leake had some arm issues last year with that workload. I would keep him around 170, and I think the Reds agree.

150 for Chapman would be about right.

If they Reds are in 1st place toward the end of the season they will not shut down anybody

It has been 20 years since they have won it all and 15 years since they have been in the playoffs.

Neither Leake nor Chapman will be pitching in 15-20 years, if you have a chance this season GO FOR IT

AintlifeGrande
05-31-2010, 02:32 PM
Earl Weaver started using many a young SP in the bullpen,and they turned out ok.Of course that was back in the day of the 4 man rotation.

bubbachunk
05-31-2010, 02:50 PM
Yea the pitching staff can be crazy loaded by the time a playoff run would be made. I think it is a great idea to bring up Chapman in the pen around august ala David Price a year or two ago after he has stretched out his arm and hones his control. Also Edinson would be able to ease back into pitching after the TJ surgery working relief.

Vottomatic
05-31-2010, 03:01 PM
To limit some of these guys innings, I rotate a few of them in the starting pitching rotation. If Volquez comes back healthy, maybe have him start on the 5th day and have Leake start the next time. Or if Volquez can't go more than 3 or 4 innings, bring in leak to pitch a few.

Can you imagine our bullpen come September call-ups?

Kingspoint
05-31-2010, 04:23 PM
well leake is at 66 IP at 1/3 mark in the season. at this pace he should get to 198 IP. but i would start throwing him out there every other start until the end of july.

His 198 Innings though are equivalent to Bailey and Cueto pitching 150 innings. While there should never be a comparison because it's all about "increased work load from the year before based on that individual", Leake should be able to handle 198 innings better than anyone I've seen in a long time. He led all of College Baseball in 2008 and 2009 in Innings pitched, but he had it even easier there than he has it here.

Bottom-line, is that we're expected to make the playoffs, so those 198 Innings are going to move to 230-240 innings if we go all the way to the World Series. That would be sad if we do great, but Leake ends up with a career like Doc Gooden's where he pitched the same number of innings his Rookie season, and then was a shell of himself for the rest of his career (after having a very good next season, also). Gooden was a power pitcher, though, so it's not an ideal comparison.

Didn't Leake also pitch in the Arizona Fall League?

Kingspoint
05-31-2010, 04:27 PM
Earl Weaver started using many a young SP in the bullpen,and they turned out ok.Of course that was back in the day of the 4 man rotation.

He also sent Brooks Robinson back to the Minors for a couple of seasons. He never would have put up with what Bruce had done his first two seasons.