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Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:07 PM
By the comments from most posters in this section of REDSZONE, you'd think that the REDS are one of the five worst teams in the Majors at Closing Games, and that Cordero is the worst of the worst.

Nobody could be more wrong.

Everyone of you who think so are wrong.

You're DEAD WRONG.

You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word.

So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:10 PM
How hard is it to "Save" games?

Every team in the National League except one has a lower save percentage of the REDS.

The REDS are the 2nd Best in the National League. And, since Cordero is the only one who attempts to Save games for the REDS, then that means that Cordero is better than every team in the NL, but one.

The REDS' Save % is 73%.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:11 PM
Atlanta is 71%
St. Louis is 71%.
Houston is 71%.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:11 PM
Pittsburgh and Washington are 68%.

Philadelphia and San Diego are 67%.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:12 PM
Florida and Los Angeles are 64%.

Chicago is 63%.

Colorado and New York are 62%.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:12 PM
Arizona and Milwaukee are 50%.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:13 PM
The REDS are 73%.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:16 PM
Cordero is far from good right now. Hes giving up over 1 hit per inning, and hes walking 4 per 9 innings. Thats a recipe for disaster.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:16 PM
Only the Giants are better at 74%.

Why are all of these other teams worse than the REDS? Because their Managers don't throw their Closers out there every other day like Dusty Baker does. They either don't have as many Save Opportunities (The REDS are in a 4-way tie for 3rd in Save Opportunities), or they are willing to trust other pitchers to get it done (but, they don't get it done) because they want to have their Closer healthier through the Summer and the playoff run (Dusty doesn't trust his other pitchers as much).

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:19 PM
Cordero is far from good right now. Hes giving up over 1 hit per inning, and hes walking 4 per 9 innings. Thats a recipe for disaster.

None of that matters when it comes to a closer. As long as you don't blow the save, that's all that matters. Nothing else matters.

They have one responsibility and one responsibility only, and that's to get secure the Win.

The proof of how absolutely incredibly difficult that is to do are the percentages of every other team on their ability to get it done.

Only one "team" gets it done as well as the REDS get it done.

And, while Cordero is "struggling" right now, it's only because he's been over-used on the season (as you yourself have been an advocate to correctly state time and again this season). Even his "struggling" is better than most teams' ability to get W's in Save Situations.

FlyerFanatic
06-06-2010, 07:22 PM
i said it in the game thread. cordero has 17 saves 2nd in the NL behind capps. he gets it done, but hes not gonna make any of them look pretty. as long as the runners he puts on dont score most the time, we're fine. again hes just gonna be giving everyone heart problems each time.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:22 PM
Masset struggled, but he got a Save today.

If some of these other pitchers can step up and give Baker the confidence to use them in Save situations, Cordero won't have to pitch as often, and his save percentage will improve. The "struggling" will happen less often.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:28 PM
Hes been in games 17 times with 2 or more run leads. Given up a run in 5 of those.

Hes given up earned runs in 8 of his outings.

Thankfully for us the Reds have given him more than 1 run leads because hes been getting by with being just good enough to not blow 2 and 3 run leads.

10 of his saves have had 2 or more run leads.

Sorry if I dotn care about a save percentage when more than half of his saves have been with 2 run leads. If they werent he could easily have 7 blown saves.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:30 PM
i said it in the game thread. cordero has 17 saves 2nd in the NL behind capps. he gets it done, but hes not gonna make any of them look pretty. as long as the runners he puts on dont score most the time, we're fine. again hes just gonna be giving everyone heart problems each time.

And, Mitch Williams just said that Capps is not going to be closing games much longer because he's not capable of doing it on a consistent basis. (Washington is has had 29 Save Opportunities this season. The 2nd most has 23.) Capps is also being overused.

J.J. Putz for Seattle a couple of years ago was nearly perfect for the season (something like 40 of 42). They trade him the next season, and all of a sudden, he can't close games anymore. He's a setup man now having been traded again. Closing games on a consistent basis is tough. Dibble couldn't do it. Carlton couldn't do it. Graves was pretty good for a few seasons (better than most), but he wasn't "elite", never having "great save percentage" seasons.

Few pitchers are lucky if they can sustain it for more than 2 seasons. Cordero is the best of the best, where he's been able to maintain success for half a dozen seasons.

Right now Cordero is "struggling". But, he'll just have to pitch through it and wait for the Cavalry to get here in Burton, and Bray and others (already REDS). Dusty will get him some rest eventually. Seems like he's gotten a little lately. Doesn't mean he'll find his groove immediately (like he didn't today). But, it "hopefully" will happen, and it's WISE to wait for it.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:31 PM
Only 7 of his 28 innings have been clean innings this year as well.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:32 PM
Hes been in games 17 times with 2 or more run leads. Given up a run in 5 of those.

Hes given up earned runs in 8 of his outings.

Thankfully for us the Reds have given him more than 1 run leads because hes been getting by with being just good enough to not blow 2 and 3 run leads.

10 of his saves have had 2 or more run leads.

Sorry if I dotn care about a save percentage when more than half of his saves have been with 2 run leads. If they werent he could easily have 7 blown saves.

It doesn't matter "how" he gets a "W" for the REDS, or how any other pitcher gets a "W" for their team (they've had the same types of leads as Cordero to work with, yet they fail at a higher rate).

League Average is 65%. That's more than 1 Blown Save for every 3 opportunities. You're nitpicking on someone who is "leading" his team to 2nd Best in the National League.

captainmorgan07
06-06-2010, 07:35 PM
I don't undervalue how difficult it is to save games but for pete's sake you don't make it easier on yourself doing what cordero is doing. He nibbles at hitters then gets himself in trouble which either ends up in a walk or a basehit. If guys like Todd Jones/John Franco can get it done Cordero has much better stuff than they do.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:36 PM
I just want everyone in the SunDeck to look at Cordero's ability to secure wins with some perspective.....the perspective that he's leading the REDS to the 2nd Best Save Percentage in the National League so far this season under conditions where he's been overused and is now struggling as a result. (Don't forget, he didn't start off struggling as he Saved something like 9 of his first 11 opportunities. The # of games he's pitched has caught up to him.)

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:37 PM
It doesn't matter "how" he gets a "W" for the REDS, or how any other pitcher gets a "W" for their team.

League Average is 65%. That's more than 1 Blown Save for every 3 opportunities. You're nitpicking on someone who is "leading" his team to 2nd Best in the National League.

just because you say it doesnt matter doesnt mean it doesnt matter. If Cordero has to pitch in a 1 run game people have every right to be concerned if he can get it done. Hes barely getting it done and is giving people panic attacks in the process.

Dont blame the fans for seeing something as obvious as Corderos inability to not make a 2+ run save such a hard thing to do.

Hes getting hit hard, and hes giving up walks, and hes giving up runs.

I care about his save percentage about as much as I care about someones win loss record.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:40 PM
I don't undervalue how difficult it is to save games but for pete's sake you don't make it easier on yourself doing what cordero is doing. He nibbles at hitters then gets himself in trouble which either ends up in a walk or a basehit. If guys like Todd Jones/John Franco can get it done Cordero has much better stuff than they do.

He doesn't make it easy on us is really what you mean. It's my guess that it doesn't bother him at all. It's that surety that he possesses about his abilities that makes him the "elite" closer that he is. While "struggling" right now, he's got it in him to get better, where most pitchers who've had success at Closing and then found struggles, never return to being a good Closer again. That's not Cordero, at least not the 2010 version. He's still the same player who could end up closing 24 of his last 27 opportunities on the season (a truly great percentage for the months of July, August and September). He could also end up on the DL if he ends up pitching too much and blow too many games. Game scenarios over the rest of June will dictate that. We're at home for most of the month, so he'll get to sleep in his own house for most of that time. That should benefit him and help him to get the most rest that he can get.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:40 PM
Link for saving games percentages in the National League:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2010-reliever-pitching.shtml

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:41 PM
Cordero has blown 4 of the teams 6 saves.

The league average for a whole bullpen is 65% not the closers btw.

Parliament
06-06-2010, 07:42 PM
By the comments from most posters in this section of REDSZONE, you'd think that the REDS are one of the five worst teams in the Majors at Closing Games, and that Cordero is the worst of the worst.

Nobody could be more wrong.

Everyone of you who think so are wrong.

You're DEAD WRONG.

You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word.

So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it.

Feel better? :rolleyes:

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:44 PM
The league average for a whole bullpen is 65% not the closers btw.

I've stated that "empatically" throughout this thread.

The fact that other teams don't have someone they can rely on as much as Baker relies on Cordero is why every team but one has a lower save percentage than the REDS. Baker and the REDS have a luxury the rest of the National League does not have.

Reds
06-06-2010, 07:44 PM
A closer should not walk a batter to start an inning when you're up two runs, make him hit it. One blown save is too many, but whatchagonnado.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:45 PM
I care about his save percentage about as much as I care about someones win loss record.

Well, that's just nonsense, GIDP. That doesn't make any sense.

A pitcher has little control over a win-loss record.

A Closer has a ton of control over his save percentage.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Feel better? :rolleyes:

Absolutely. It really gets old to hear about all the complaining about Cordero. Once in a while, sure. But all the time when he's leading this team to the 2nd Best Save Percentage in the National League is just too much, especially if anyone took into consideration his extra workload this season. Of course, he'll not save as many games as he did last year when working this hard. But, to just rant and say, "he's crap", "he sucks", "he's worthless", "etc." is too much. I had to address it and call everybody out on it. I'm tired of it.

What he's done so far this year would be an "elite" year for Danny Graves.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Well, that's just nonsense, GIDP. That doesn't make any sense.

A pitcher has little control over a win-loss record.

A Closer has a ton of control over his save percentage.

A closer can save 3 run games by being a terrible pitcher and giving up 2 runs every time. See how stupid it is? you can have a 18.00 ERA and save 100% of your 3 run save chances.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 07:54 PM
A closer can save 3 run games by being a terrible pitcher and giving up 2 runs every time. See how stupid it is? you can have a 18.00 ERA and save 100% of your 3 run save chances.

You can try to nitpick all you want, but there's only one job a Closer has, and that's to "secure the Win". If it mattered how it was done, every team in the NL wouldn't be worse than the REDS at it, but one.

But, apparently, every team in the NL (except one) pitches worse than Cordero in Save Situations using every statistic that you want to use.

GIDP
06-06-2010, 07:56 PM
You can try to nitpick all you want, but there's only one job a Closer has, and that's to "secure the Win". If it mattered how it was done, every team in the NL wouldn't be worse than the REDS at it, but one.

But, apparently, every team in the NL (except one) pitches worse than Cordero in Save Situations using every statistic that you want to use.

Only stat that matters you you is one that can be done by someone with an 18.00 ERA.

Reds
06-06-2010, 08:03 PM
He's also giving up 1 HR per 9 innings, higher than his career average.. bring that down and the ERA will fall, and blown saves will dissipate. My final stance is that he is above average, but will make your hair turn white. And he's overpaid for a smaller market team.

Griffey012
06-06-2010, 08:05 PM
A closer should not walk a batter to start an inning when you're up two runs, make him hit it. One blown save is too many, but whatchagonnado.

I think this is what are driving people to turn on CoCo most. I fully support CoCo and am glad he is our closer. But it drives me and everyone else nuts when he gets a 2 or 3 run lead and comes in and walks the first hitter. If the first guy gets a single that is one thing, but to give him a free pass is not okay. When you are up 2 or 3 runs a solo shot is irrelevant cause you still have a 1 or 2 run lead, so challenge the guy with your heater.

Here are facts about Cordero this season...
1. He has saved 16/20 games including today's BS for a 80% success rate, his career rate is 81.8%.
2. He has taken 3 losses.
3. He now has a 3.86 ERA and a 1.54 WHIP, well above his career numbers.
4. He is on pace for 85 games pitched, well above his previous high of 73.
5. He is a big reason we are 33-24, he hasn't been pretty often at all, but he has been getting his job done more than anyone in the pen outside of Rhodes.

For those of you who want to put him in the guillotine just take a read at his 2008 numbers.

72 games, 5-4, 34/40 Saves, 3.33 ERA, 1.41 WHIP, 10.0 K/9, 4.9 BB/9.

Stats before today:
29 games, 1-3, 16/19 Saves, 3.33 ERA, 1.44 WHIP, 7.3 K/9, 3.7 BB/9.

Coco is for the most part pitching like we should expect CoCo to be pitching. Just because we pay a guy a lot of money doesn't mean he will pitch better than he is capable of. CoCo is what he is, a good closer, not great, who gets the job done most the time in a stressful fashion. His walks are actually down this year, but so are his K's. All the extra games may be wearing him down and causing him to nibble more instead of power power power hitters.

The fact he is overpaid does not matter, the cost is already there. We are not paying his 12 million salary, Castellini is. We would not have signed anyone in the offseason with that money that would help our team more than he is.

He is something to keep an eye on, but we are far better with him, than we are without him right now. His blown saves seem much bigger this year because the bullpen as a whole has been shakier than last season, and the games mean more than ever.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:09 PM
Only stat that matters you you is one that can be done by someone with an 18.00 ERA.

It all comes back to the title of the thread. There's not enough respect and understanding in The Sun Deck for how difficult it is to close out a game. That's why I'm hammering down the fact that the REDS, led by Francisco Cordero, is the 2nd best team in the NL in "securing a Win".

And, isn't the Won-Loss record all it's about during a single season?

There's a disproportionate amount of "booing" and "complaining" about Cordero to the "success" he's had at "securing the win".

With so many games at home this month, I'd hate to see the fans carry their misinformed opinions about his effort (and results) onto the playing field and boo the guy if he happens to get into trouble (or fail) during while he's trying to secure the win.

This is a time when the fans can help (instead of hurt) the team, as so many games are at home. Some confidence in the players during a game while at the park might make the difference between a win and a loss, and ultimately the playoffs or no playoffs.

Just trying to divert the undo criticism of Cordero.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:15 PM
Of course it's possible that at the age of 35, Cordero's ability to close games consistently is over.

But, it's more likely that he's struggled more lately because he was over used.

Just like Matt Capps, who blew zero games in his first 21 chances with an ERA of 2.00 and a WHIP of 1.040, but in his last seven he's blown 4 gamse, had an ERA of gigantus and a WHIP of 3.800. Capps has never worked that many Closing Opportunities before (he was a Pirate), and he's been overworked, too.

Parliament
06-06-2010, 08:16 PM
It all comes back to the title of the thread. There's not enough respect and understanding in The Sun Deck for how difficult it is to close out a game.


I'd never be so presumptuous but, hey, thanks for sharing your wisdom :)

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:17 PM
His blown saves seem much bigger this year because the bullpen as a whole has been shakier than last season, and the games mean more than ever.

There's a lot to that.

Griffey012
06-06-2010, 08:19 PM
Link for saving games percentages in the National League:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2010-reliever-pitching.shtml

To expand on this a bit let me display the CoCo effect on our pen.

Save %
'03 - 59%
'04 - 60%
'05 - 66%
'06 - 61%
'07 - 55% (Worst in the NL)
CoCo comes aboard
'08 - 62% (mid pack)
'09 - 77% (Best in the NL)
'10 - 73% ( 2nd in the NL)

There is no question he makes our pen a much better place. Even if he is average to above average and not Rivera and Broxton like.

nemesis
06-06-2010, 08:21 PM
Keeping in mind that Cordero is close to if not the highest paid closer in Baseball. His expectations from the fans who know are higher than maybe they should be. But he has struggled this year. Badly. Hypothetically save % is a stat that can be manipulated. Lets say that 80% of team A's saves are 2 or 3 run leads. Team B had a 50% 2 or 3 run lead. Team A gives up 1 run per outing in half those outings. They still get a save and the numbers (save percentage) looks great. Team B does the same (one rune in half the outings) and they look like they are the worst Bullpen in the majors.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:21 PM
I'd never be so presumptuous but, hey, thanks for sharing your wisdom :)

That's fine.

I think everyone sees playoffs as being a reality this season, so everything's amplified. I don't think anyone really wants to have one of our other pitchers Closing games, or anyone has a "legitimate trade scenario" to offer where we could get someone who's better than Cordero.

Maybe it ends up being like "Mitch Williams" and his season where the Phillies went to the World Series. We get to the World Series because of Cordero, but we lose it in Game 7 because of Cordero, too.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:22 PM
Lets say that 80% of team A's saves are 2 or 3 run leads. Team B had a 50% 2 or 3 run lead. Team A gives up 1 run per outing in half those outings.

After nearly 60 games, that's probably balanced itself out by now.

We started off the season 14-0 in games where the REDS gave up less than 3 runs. We don't do that without Cordero.

nemesis
06-06-2010, 08:23 PM
After nearly 60 games, that's probably balanced itself out by now.

How many save opportunities has Cordero given up a run in and still got a save?

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:24 PM
How many save opportunities has Cordero given up a run in and still got a save?

Quite a few, but it doesn't matter as every other team (but the Giants) would have given up as many runs and more in the same situations.

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 08:25 PM
Is this thread a joke?

I see better than I read statistics, and Cordero is terrible right now, if not for most of the season. He's a batting tee most of the time.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Is this thread a joke?



No, it's not a joke Vottomatic.

Your REDS have the 2nd best Save Percentage in the National League, led by Cordero. While Cordero is "struggling" because of his overuse this year, he's likely to improve as the Cavalry of Relievers arrive.

Do you have a legitimate trade scenario that would bring to the team a better Closer that Dusty would be willing to throw out there "every other game" like he has with Cordero, or are you willing to wait and see if Cordero will improve after he gets some help from some of the arriving bullpen arms?

nemesis
06-06-2010, 08:33 PM
Quite a few, but it doesn't matter as every other team (but the Giants) would have given up as many runs and more in the same situations.

But it does matter because going forward you have to know you can count on your closer in 1 run games. The Reds cannot. So if 10 of the next 12 opportunities are 1 run games he by average will blow 4 to 6 of them. Thats not getting it done. Flatout. Soria who is on a craphole of a team has gotten through 11 of his 21 games without allowing a baserunner. Has only given up runs in 4 of those games. More than 1 one time. Has only lost one of the games he's been in for his team. He is the definition of a nails closer. Fpr about 9 million less. Cordero is slipping. He eventually will implode at this rate. They need a backup plan and there isn't one in house.

So the A B stat does make a difference. If Soria was on the same team with the same stats he has on KC he'd be perfect in save situations for the Reds. So yes as good as the numbers look it could be better and it is Cordero's fault.

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 08:34 PM
No, it's not a joke Vottomatic.

Your REDS have the 2nd best Save Percentage in the National League, led by Cordero. While Cordero is "struggling" because of his overuse this year, he's likely to improve as the Cavalry of Relievers arrive.

Do you have a legitimate trade scenario that would bring to the team a better Closer that Dusty would be willing to throw out there "every other game" like he has with Cordero, or are you willing to wait and see if Cordero will improve after he gets some help from some of the arriving bullpen arms?

Whatever dude. Jam it down our throats.

Like I said. Cordero basically sucks and always makes it interesting. It gets old.

Obviously they're not going to re-sign him after next year. It's a good time to trade for the eventually closer and start mixing him in. Although Dusty seems determined to help CoCo gets as many saves as possible for his future resume', even though it would be smart to mix someone else in occasionally who can actually get the job done.

And I've been waiting all season for Cordero to improve and he continues to try my patience and disappoint. It was a bad signing and remains a bad signing, no matter how many stats you throw at me. He's a batting tee most of the time and it gets old.

Watching him pitch tells me more than reading some darn stats. :rolleyes:

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:42 PM
So, who's this "eventual" closer, Vottomatic, you want to trade Cordero for right now?

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 08:45 PM
They can't unload Cordero. The rest of the league knows what I know.......that he's a batting tee right now. We'll just have to have your hopeful and positive attitude that he gets it together because Dusty will continue to run him out there to close games and no team in mlb would be dumb enough to take on his $12.5M contract this and next season.

We're stuck.

I'm just saying, trade for JJ Putz or someone like that and mix them in to close occasionally. Because our minor league reliever situation sucks right now too and I doubt we have a future closer in the wings. Masset has struggled too, and he was the heir apparent until his struggles this year.

TheOnlyRedsFan
06-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Lets trade Cordero for Trevor Hoffman....

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Watching him pitch tells me more than reading some darn stats. :rolleyes:

You don't like Wins?

You don't think Winning Games is important?

Cordero saved 91% of games last season. That was 3rd best in all of Major League baseball.

Because hes struggling a little bit right now, you want to trade him? For who?

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:49 PM
They can't unload Cordero. The rest of the league knows what I know.......that he's a batting tee right now. We'll just have to have your hopeful and positive attitude that he gets it together because Dusty will continue to run him out there to close games and no team in mlb would be dumb enough to take on his $12.5M contract this and next season.

We're stuck.

I'm just saying, trade for JJ Putz or someone like that and mix them in to close occasionally. Because our minor league reliever situation sucks right now too and I doubt we have a future closer in the wings. Masset has struggled too, and he was the heir apparent until his struggles this year.

So, you're suggesting to trade for JJ Putz? A guy who lost his ability to close games after being traded from Seattle. Putz completely lost his confidence in save situations. This isn't "Stratomatic" or Nintendo or Playstation where you can just throw anyone in there and expect the same results from when they aren't closing out games.

You'll have to come up with a trade scenario where we get one of the Closers who are doing a great job of closing games THIS SEASON.

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 08:49 PM
You don't like Wins?

You don't think Winning Games is important?

Cordero saved 91% of games last season. That was 3rd best in all of Major League baseball.

Because hes struggling a little bit right now, you want to trade him? For who?

I guess you can't read.

I said we can't trade him because his salary is too big and he's doing poorly. Should I use caps for you to see it? Put your reader glasses on and then maybe you can read my posts.

"Cordero saved 91% of games last season.".........yep, I believe the words "last season" are key to that sentence and the most pertinent to your argument. :rolleyes:

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 08:51 PM
So, you're suggesting to trade for JJ Putz? A guy who lost his ability to close games after being traded from Seattle. Putz completely lost his confidence in save situations. These isn't "Statomatic" or Nintendo or Playstation where you can just throw anyone in there and expect the same results from when they aren't closing out games.

You'll have to come up with a trade scenario where we get one of the Closers who are doing a great job of closing games THIS SEASON.

Funny. Now you're talking about this season, but you referred to Cordero's magnificent stats LAST SEASON.

Oh well. Keep playing word games. It's working well for you so far.

Glad you're happy with Cordero's impressive stats. Herrera had impressive stats last season too. So did Masset. How's that working out this year?

Yeah......I thought so.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:52 PM
I guess you can't read.

I said we can't trade him because his salary is too big and he's doing poorly. Should I use caps for you to see it? Put your reader glasses on and then maybe you can read my posts.

"Cordero saved 91% of games last season.".........yep, I believe the words "last season" are key to that sentence and the most pertinent to your argument. :rolleyes:

You're the one who said, "It was a bad signing and remains a bad signing". I was wondering how you could say that with what Cordero has done since he's been here.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 08:55 PM
I guess you can't read.

I said we can't trade him because his salary is too big and he's doing poorly. Should I use caps for you to see it? Put your reader glasses on and then maybe you can read my posts.

"Cordero saved 91% of games last season.".........yep, I believe the words "last season" are key to that sentence and the most pertinent to your argument. :rolleyes:

That's you trying to change the thread.

I've stated throughout that I'm talking about what he's doing this year.

There is no "perfection" in closing. How it gets done isn't important. That the REDS are 2nd in the National League in "securing a victory" is all that matters.

I find it hard to complain about that.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 09:00 PM
I'm not expecting people's opinions to change about him, but I'd just like to see some of you cut him some slack because he's not doing as bad as you think he is:

A. Because closing games is more difficult than you're thinking it is judged by the success rate of the rest of the National League, and

B. Cordero's probably been overworked by Baker and there's nothing Cordero can do about that. He's worse lately than he was at the beginning of the season. He's definitely out of sync right now.

nemesis
06-06-2010, 09:01 PM
Kingspoint.

What he is trying to say is we have a 35 year old closer. Who has blown 20% of his save chances. Has a WHIP of 1.54 and allowing a .276 BAA... That plus a 4.6 walk rate against a 8.9 K ratio isn't that good. No manager in baseball would say that's good. Because it's not.

nemesis
06-06-2010, 09:04 PM
If you only pitch one inning and 2 guys are reaching against you every time. that isn't a good thing. Especially when your job is specifically to keep those guys from reaching at all. He is in a funk. But that funk is 2 months old now.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 09:04 PM
Kingspoint.

What he is trying to say is we have a 35 year old closer. Who has blown 20% of his save chances. Has a WHIP of 1.54 and allowing a .276 BAA... That plus a 4.6 walk rate against a 8.9 K ratio isn't that good. No manager in baseball would say that's good. Because it's not.

I've never said that's not what everyone says it is.

Taken individually, if Cordero was pitching in innings other than the 9th, then it would be horrible. But, that's not the case here.

Vottomatic
06-06-2010, 09:05 PM
By the comments from most posters in this section of REDSZONE, you'd think that the REDS are one of the five worst teams in the Majors at Closing Games, and that Cordero is the worst of the worst.

Nobody could be more wrong.

Everyone of you who think so are wrong.

You're DEAD WRONG.

You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word.

So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it.

Sorry, but I found your opening post of this thread insulting to all of us. Please don't tell us "everyone of you who think so are wrong. You're DEAD WRONG. You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word. So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it."

Very insulting. As you asked us not to complain, I would ask you not to cram your opinions down our throats as the final word. Please be considerate of all of our opinions and maybe I'll be more considerate of yours.

I have no beef with you. But I was ticked off that he blew that lead and then I come on here in a bad mood about that aspect of the game, even though we won, and read your initial post of this thread and I just found it arrogantly insulting.

Sorry. Just being honest. Peace. And that's my final thought on this thread.

DirtyBaker
06-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Cordero from this season to last season is night and day. From my vantage point, he's missing the strike zone and not pitching to contact. If it keeps up, he ought to switch spots with Rhodes.

It's not 2009 Kingspoint....

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 09:08 PM
Sorry, but I found your opening post of this thread insulting to all of us. Please don't tell us "everyone of you who think so are wrong. You're DEAD WRONG. You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word. So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it."

Very insulting. As you asked us not to complain, I would ask you not to cram your opinions down our throats as the final word. Please be considerate of all of our opinions and maybe I'll be more considerate of yours.

I have no beef with you. But I was ticked off that he blew that lead and then I come on here in a bad mood about that aspect of the game, even though we won, and read your initial post of this thread and I just found it arrogantly insulting.

Sorry. Just being honest. Peace.

No problem. I want to hear your opinions. Why else come here?

It wouldn't be the Sun Deck without a little "over-the-top" venting.

I could have chosen my words in the first post differently, for sure.

nemesis
06-06-2010, 09:13 PM
I've never said that's not what everyone says it is.

Taken individually, if Cordero was pitching in innings other than the 9th, then it would be horrible. But, that's not the case here.

No it is horrible because it is the single most important inning. If he did this crap in the 6th the team would have a chance to rebound. How demoralizing is it to a starter to be in the bank for a win and your closer blow it? Or worse loose the game? He has blown 4 saves and lost 3 games. Thats pace for 12 and 9. That is horrific to think you lose 9 games your closer comes into. If you lose 72 games that 12%.

TheOnlyRedsFan
06-06-2010, 09:18 PM
Kingspoint.

What he is trying to say is we have a 35 year old closer. Who has blown 20% of his save chances. Has a WHIP of 1.54 and allowing a .276 BAA... That plus a 4.6 walk rate against a 8.9 K ratio isn't that good. No manager in baseball would say that's good. Because it's not.

Cordero, 4 blown saves (18 for 22)
Matt Capps, 4 blown saves (16 for 20) also 1.54 WHIP, .304 BAA,
Heath Bell, 3 blown saves (15 for 18)
Francisco Rodriguez, 3 blown saves
Hoffman, 5 blown saves

Every closer blows saves. This year, not all closers have been great but Cordero, struggling or not he is among the top closers in the league at the moment.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 09:18 PM
How demoralizing is it to a starter to be in the bank for a win and your closer blow it?

But, my point is that's happened less to our team than every team in the NL but the Giants so far this year. (but, as pointed out in another thread, the REDS are 5th worst in the NL in allowing Inherited Runners to Score...the Starters are demoralized long before the RED get to CoCo).

I'm not at all convinced that Cordero is going to improve because I think his problems are related to the overuse. If he doesn't get a 15-20 day period of rest (maybe only 5 or 6 appearances over 20 days), then he may very well not improve. But, then again, he's so darn tough, that he may in spite of not getting enough rest.

Cant Touch This
06-06-2010, 09:45 PM
Two thoughts:

1) It is very difficult to get out major league baseball hitters, no matter what inning, what score, or how big a lead you have. That's a point I agree with. These hitters are damn good.

2) The closer is a trend that I wish would fade quietly into the night because it's a role that was created and since preserved by arbitrary statistics.

A true closer is someone who has the fortitude and confidence to take the mound in the final inning of play to protect a lead and preserve a victory. This is someone who should be extremely tough on hitters and doesn't allow many runners to get on base. Someone who has a strikeout rate of close to 1 per inning and doesn't walk too many.

Rare breed? You bet it is.

Unfortunately, many teams appoint a closer and think that this one person is the go to guy to achieve this so-very-difficult feat every time your team has a lead of 3 runs or less in the last inning.

I'm sorry, but those pitchers are few and far between, and at no fault of his own, Cordero is not one of them.

In a role driven by the SAVE category, managers have decidedly favored the team's designated closer rather than go with the hot hand. It should be a revolving role in my opinion. Whichever reliever is currently your toughest on hitters (see: Rhodes, Arthur) - that should be your guy.

And here's a news flash: players are streaky. There's a damn good chance Rhodes will hit a rocky point sometime this season. Perhaps around that same time, someone like Massett, Burton, or maybe even Cordero will be pitching well.

The reality is, there are dollars - millions of them - tied to the saves category. So until ownership and management stops placing such a high value in one, single, solitary pitcher to close out games, fans are going to suffer through the drama of the modern-day closer with a WHIP above 1.5 and a BAA north of .275.

Incidentally, I was doing jumping jacks - quite a scene for a 39-year old - when Riggleman brought Capps in to replace Clippard today. I don't think there is any doubt that it was that single decision that cost Washington the game. Capps is the closer, after all. Thank God for the Reds that he is...

Griffey012
06-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Keeping in mind that Cordero is close to if not the highest paid closer in Baseball. His expectations from the fans who know are higher than maybe they should be. But he has struggled this year. Badly. Hypothetically save % is a stat that can be manipulated. Lets say that 80% of team A's saves are 2 or 3 run leads. Team B had a 50% 2 or 3 run lead. Team A gives up 1 run per outing in half those outings. They still get a save and the numbers (save percentage) looks great. Team B does the same (one rune in half the outings) and they look like they are the worst Bullpen in the majors.

So far this season Cordero is 6/8 in 1 run save opportunities or 75%, overall he is 80%. So he is roughly 85% or so in 2 and 3 run save opps. Which it is pretty typical of a closer to have a greater success rate in 2 and 3 run games than 1 run games.

Cordero pitches better the more intense the situation gets, he has done that his whole career. He has a habit of making things interesting, but he has done that his entire time as a Red. His numbers are worse this season, but not far off.

The bottom line is he is getting the job done at an 80% rate. It doesn't matter how close the games are for some other team as long as we are getting the W's and finishing out the games, and right now we are doing that. It has been ugly sometimes, uncomfortable others, and solid some. But I would much rather have our guy getting the job done with ugly peripherals than I would not getting it done at all.

Griffey012
06-06-2010, 10:00 PM
Two thoughts:

1) It is very difficult to get out major league baseball hitters, no matter what inning, what score, or how big a lead you have. That's a point I agree with. These hitters are damn good.

2) The closer is a trend that I wish would fade quietly into the night because it's a role that was created and since preserved by arbitrary statistics.

A true closer is someone who has the fortitude and confidence to take the mound in the final inning of play to protect a lead and preserve a victory. This is someone who should be extremely tough on hitters and doesn't allow many runners to get on base. Someone who has a strikeout rate of close to 1 per inning and doesn't walk too many.

Rare breed? You bet it is.

Unfortunately, many teams appoint a closer and think that this one person is the go to guy to achieve this so-very-difficult feat every time your team has a lead of 3 runs or less in the last inning.

I'm sorry, but those pitchers are few and far between, and at no fault of his own, Cordero is not one of them.

In a role driven by the SAVE category, managers have decidedly favored the team's designated closer rather than go with the hot hand. It should be a revolving role in my opinion. Whichever reliever is currently your toughest on hitters (see: Rhodes, Arthur) - that should be your guy.

And here's a news flash: players are streaky. There's a damn good chance Rhodes will hit a rocky point sometime this season. Perhaps around that same time, someone like Massett, Burton, or maybe even Cordero will be pitching well.

The reality is, there are dollars - millions of them - tied to the saves category. So until ownership and management stops placing such a high value in one, single, solitary pitcher to close out games, fans are going to suffer through the drama of the modern-day closer with a WHIP above 1.5 and a BAA north of .275.

Incidentally, I was doing jumping jacks - quite a scene for a 39-year old - when Riggleman brought Capps in to replace Clippard today. I don't think there is any doubt that it was that single decision that cost Washington the game. Capps is the closer, after all. Thank God for the Reds that he is...

You mention a lot of good points especially with the $$$ being tide to saves (see the Fuentes experiment). However many times these guys who are good relievers falter when put in the "save" situation. There is added pressure to getting the last 3 outs, that some guys can't handle. There have been quite a few teams that have tried the "closer by committee" but there have not been any that I recall that have done it successfully. Right now Rhodes is so important to us in getting to the 9th inning with a lead, we have no other choice than to go with CoCo. Now if Masset was pitching like last season there would be a much stronger argument of using someone else but CoCo.

lidspinner
06-06-2010, 10:24 PM
in no way am I going to sit here and allow stats to make me think a guy is golden when he truly is bronze. Stats are a funny part of baseball, certain situations can be made to look one way or the other as per what stats you throw out there.....and this is kind of the case here, Anyone, including kingspoint, who thinks Coco is a great closer is silly and fooling themselves....is he blowing it at a lesser rate than all but the Giants? yes, but that dont make him the yankees closer of the 90's, MR. What it says is that teams are having trouble closing games this year. All teams.

Coco is all but gone after his contract runs up....no way do you pay him good money to be a guy who puts up the numbers he does...and I am not comparing him to other closers...I am comparing him to what I think a closer should do.

Do I think he is doing a good job....NO.....but I think he is doing as good as anyone else and that is all I can ask for until someone else steps up and does better. He reminds me so much of Danny Graves back when Danny was leading the league in saves but had an outrageous ERA.

Parliament
06-06-2010, 10:26 PM
Sorry, but I found your opening post of this thread insulting to all of us. Please don't tell us "everyone of you who think so are wrong. You're DEAD WRONG. You're wrong in every sense of the meaning of the word. So, cut it out and try to complain less often about it."

Very insulting. As you asked us not to complain, I would ask you not to cram your opinions down our throats as the final word. Please be considerate of all of our opinions and maybe I'll be more considerate of yours.

I have no beef with you. But I was ticked off that he blew that lead and then I come on here in a bad mood about that aspect of the game, even though we won, and read your initial post of this thread and I just found it arrogantly insulting.

Sorry. Just being honest. Peace. And that's my final thought on this thread.

Summed up my thoughts perfectly

:beerme:

Griffey012
06-06-2010, 10:44 PM
in no way am I going to sit here and allow stats to make me think a guy is golden when he truly is bronze. Stats are a funny part of baseball, certain situations can be made to look one way or the other as per what stats you throw out there.....and this is kind of the case here, Anyone, including kingspoint, who thinks Coco is a great closer is silly and fooling themselves....is he blowing it at a lesser rate than all but the Giants? yes, but that dont make him the yankees closer of the 90's, MR. What it says is that teams are having trouble closing games this year. All teams.

Coco is all but gone after his contract runs up....no way do you pay him good money to be a guy who puts up the numbers he does...and I am not comparing him to other closers...I am comparing him to what I think a closer should do.

Do I think he is doing a good job....NO.....but I think he is doing as good as anyone else and that is all I can ask for until someone else steps up and does better. He reminds me so much of Danny Graves back when Danny was leading the league in saves but had an outrageous ERA.

Well written post. CoCo has never been great, he has been good, and has been good for us the past two seasons. This year is pretty shaky. However, your 2nd to last sentence explains our situation perfectly. And let's hope he doesn't go the way of Danny Graves soon.

ian_madden
06-06-2010, 11:18 PM
Before Coco, we had Graves. Ill take Coco over Graves 8 days a week. I am upset that Graves is the franchise leader in saves and he will be for an extended period of time because we don't have anyone that will be closing for us for 5 years averaging 30 saves a year for a while. I will rejoice when Graves is no longer the saves leader for this franchise.

I do agree that Coco has been shaky, but he is one of the best in the game. The numbers don't lie. But without him, this is a really, really bad bullpen. Don't put all the blame on him. Everyone thinks that closers only pitch 1 inning so they should be good to go. They have more pressure than anyone else. personally I'll take a closer that gets it done 85% to 95% of the time.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 11:37 PM
Two thoughts:

1) It is very difficult to get out major league baseball hitters, no matter what inning, what score, or how big a lead you have. That's a point I agree with. These hitters are damn good.

2) The closer is a trend that I wish would fade quietly into the night because it's a role that was created and since preserved by arbitrary statistics.

A true closer is someone who has the fortitude and confidence to take the mound in the final inning of play to protect a lead and preserve a victory. This is someone who should be extremely tough on hitters and doesn't allow many runners to get on base. Someone who has a strikeout rate of close to 1 per inning and doesn't walk too many.

Rare breed? You bet it is.

Unfortunately, many teams appoint a closer and think that this one person is the go to guy to achieve this so-very-difficult feat every time your team has a lead of 3 runs or less in the last inning.

I'm sorry, but those pitchers are few and far between, and at no fault of his own, Cordero is not one of them.

In a role driven by the SAVE category, managers have decidedly favored the team's designated closer rather than go with the hot hand. It should be a revolving role in my opinion. Whichever reliever is currently your toughest on hitters (see: Rhodes, Arthur) - that should be your guy.

And here's a news flash: players are streaky. There's a damn good chance Rhodes will hit a rocky point sometime this season. Perhaps around that same time, someone like Massett, Burton, or maybe even Cordero will be pitching well.

The reality is, there are dollars - millions of them - tied to the saves category. So until ownership and management stops placing such a high value in one, single, solitary pitcher to close out games, fans are going to suffer through the drama of the modern-day closer with a WHIP above 1.5 and a BAA north of .275.

Incidentally, I was doing jumping jacks - quite a scene for a 39-year old - when Riggleman brought Capps in to replace Clippard today. I don't think there is any doubt that it was that single decision that cost Washington the game. Capps is the closer, after all. Thank God for the Reds that he is...


I agree with all of this. You look at any "stat" and there's about 60 relief pitchers (just in the National League) who are pitching "better" than he is on the season than he is this year. But, ask them to do it in the 9th inning all of the time trying to protect the lead, and they'll fail.

I remember some of those "try the hot hand" teams. The "team" would end up with a save percentage in the bottom-half of the league. While it makes sense, guys choke.

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 11:48 PM
What it says is that teams are having trouble closing games this year. All teams.



Cincinnati was #1 in Save Percentage last year (77%) (meaning that Cordero was the best of the best) while the NL Average of 66% last year is only 1% higher than this year's 65%. But, this year is a lot better than 2008, when the NL Average was only 62% (exactly what the REDS were where they finished 7th).

Before Cordero got here, 2007, the REDS were DEAD LAST at 55% (National League Average of 66%, same as this year).

Would you like Weathers and Company, again? Cordero has been a Godsend.

(For the record, we were 12th in 2006 at 61%; and, 11th in 2005 at 66%; and, 15th in 2004 at 60%; and 15th in 2003 at 59%. So, you can see it's been a "major" problem for a long time, that was "solved" by the acquisition of Francisco Cordero, where 30 different players were tried before him and couldn't get it done.)

Kingspoint
06-06-2010, 11:58 PM
Summed up my thoughts perfectly

:beerme:

I apologize for that.

nemesis
06-07-2010, 12:34 AM
Well the only way the two very distinct sides in this discussion will ever come to terms is revisit this thread in about a month. We know where every thing stands today. A very big series coming up with the Giants and a West coast inter-league trip that has never been kind to the Reds. They are going to need CoCo in a big way in the next 2 weeks. So let all agree to disagree in revisit this in another couple weeks.

Quatitos
06-07-2010, 12:54 AM
Well the only way the two very distinct sides in this discussion will ever come to terms is revisit this thread in about a month. We know where every thing stands today. A very big series coming up with the Giants and a West coast inter-league trip that has never been kind to the Reds. They are going to need CoCo in a big way in the next 2 weeks. So let all agree to disagree in revisit this in another couple weeks.

I agree, if CoCo is able to get used a bit less for a bit, he might get back on his game, then all this worry now might be meaningless.

Cant Touch This
06-07-2010, 01:29 AM
I agree with all of this. You look at any "stat" and there's about 60 relief pitchers (just in the National League) who are pitching "better" than he is on the season than he is this year. But, ask them to do it in the 9th inning all of the time trying to protect the lead, and they'll fail.

I remember some of those "try the hot hand" teams. The "team" would end up with a save percentage in the bottom-half of the league. While it makes sense, guys choke.

It's difficult to close by committee when your committee sucks.

I don't mind having a designated go to closer - but when he's struggling, I think you need to shake things up a bit, and then maybe the elastic will snap back after awhile. But when managers make decisions based on dollars, the integrity of the role goes in the tank. Of course, I don't find much integrity to the role to begin with, nor do I place much value in a save - but that's just an opinion.

The other school of thought is that there are very few closers who I think would be doing a better job than Cordero is right now under the same circumstances of being asked to close at every single save opportunity regardless of "hot hand" status.

So, if the Cincinnati Reds, LLC and Dusty Baker are going to run a closer out there no matter what, hot/cold hand be damned, then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't remain Cordero. Inject anyone else into that same role and we'll all overdose on Tums.

Incidentally...go Reds. What a fun season this has been.

Krawhitham
06-07-2010, 01:36 AM
How hard is it to "Save" games?

Every team in the National League except one has a lower save percentage of the REDS.

The REDS are the 2nd Best in the National League. And, since Cordero is the only one who attempts to Save games for the REDS, then that means that Cordero is better than every team in the NL, but one.

The REDS' Save % is 73%.

how many 1-2-3 innings has CoCo had?

EDIT

7 out of 30 chances

Plus 33% of the time he gives up at least 1 run

DirtyBaker
06-07-2010, 02:08 AM
I think the overuse argument is a fair one. Twice this season Cordero has had to go 4 straight days without rest. It's just hard for arms to come back from overuse. I still think that 18 inning Padres game years ago is why Harang isn't the same pitcher anymore.

It's not Cordero's fault if overuse is the case, but reguardless, he's looking more like Danny Graves and less like his 2008-09 self.

Vottomatic
06-07-2010, 08:53 AM
I think the overuse argument is a fair one. Twice this season Cordero has had to go 4 straight days without rest. It's just hard for arms to come back from overuse. I still think that 18 inning Padres game years ago is why Harang isn't the same pitcher anymore.

It's not Cordero's fault if overuse is the case, but reguardless, he's looking more like Danny Graves and less like his 2008-09 self.

More reason to go get someone who can share some closing with him. Screw his own personal "save" stats (which is what Dusty is doing). Spread the save situations out between a couple of guys to keep them fresh. Also, competition is never a bad thing.

ILoveWilly
06-07-2010, 03:18 PM
How hard it is, to pay $12 mil for a closer? We could have the other 4 top closers in the NL for the same salary as Cordero. That's a fact. Save your spin for someone else, closers are OVER. RATED.

Fon Duc Tow
06-07-2010, 03:38 PM
Cordero earned his paycheck last season.

Is he earning it this season? Thats pretty much the bottom line.

Putting Cordero in when we are winning 5-1 is what baffles me.

Kingspoint
06-07-2010, 06:24 PM
It's difficult to close by committee when your committee sucks.

I don't mind having a designated go to closer - but when he's struggling, I think you need to shake things up a bit, and then maybe the elastic will snap back after awhile. But when managers make decisions based on dollars, the integrity of the role goes in the tank.

Well, you know how Baker likes his Veterans.

Baker did the same thing with Robb Nen. He ran Nen out there year after year with Nen always in the Top-5 in Games Finished (3 times #1 out of 5 years with Baker).

Blown Saves will happen. While Nen usually was in the Top-3 in Saves every year under Baker, he had his share of blown Saves. Here were his Blown Saves totals under Baker (Baker left after 2002, and Nen retired after 2002.):

2002.....8 BS
2001.....7 BS
2000.....5 BS
1999.....9 BS
1998.....5 BS

Cordero has 4 right now (he'd only have 3 if Nix makes that catch in Atlanta instead of letting it bounce off his mitt and over the fence).

With 8 Blown Saves in 2002, the Giants still won the NL pennant. If Cordero ends up with 7 or 8 Blown Saves this year, that will be a "normal" amount for a closer that gets as many opportunities as Cordero will have gotten.

Kingspoint
06-07-2010, 06:28 PM
More reason to go get someone who can share some closing with him. Screw his own personal "save" stats (which is what Dusty is doing). Spread the save situations out between a couple of guys to keep them fresh. Also, competition is never a bad thing.

I wish Baker thought like that. I've always respected San Diego and how they handle their bullpens. They do it this way. Somehow, San Diego Management is able to instill in the different Managers they hire this attitude. With a brand new G.M. now, I'll have to see if they continue this. It was G.M. Kevin Towers who did it this way.

Kingspoint
06-07-2010, 06:44 PM
How hard it is, to pay $12 mil for a closer? We could have the other 4 top closers in the NL for the same salary as Cordero. That's a fact. Save your spin for someone else, closers are OVER. RATED.

You have no idea who are going to be 2012's Top-4 Closers, so what you just said makes no sense. When you sign a contract of a "Closer", you don't get to sign him for 1 year. The investment has to be for 4 or 5 years, three at the very minimum. So, try right now to predict 2012's Top-4 Closers. I doubt very much if you could get more than 1 of them right. That's what Cincinnati had to try to do when they signed Cordero....try to predict 2010's Top Closers.