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Benihana
06-07-2010, 08:12 PM
Might as well start the official thread for the Reds' first round pick.

Feel free to post any and all information on Yasmani here.

Vottomatic
06-07-2010, 08:12 PM
Will they keep him at catcher?

JayBruce
06-07-2010, 08:19 PM
Will they keep him at catcher?

Put him in LF or 1B. We don't have many guys at those spots.

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:20 PM
Yes, he is known most for his defense, so he is a catcher all the way.

mdccclxix
06-07-2010, 08:23 PM
FWIW, I remember when the Reds took Yonder, Buckley really praised the recent Miami tradition of batters, mentioning Aubrey Huff and Ryan Braun. Seems that continues on.

Benihana
06-07-2010, 08:23 PM
IF he signs, I think the plan is for him to remain at Catcher. However, if Mez can continue to rake, they will either have an extremely valuable trade chip or they can move Grandal to 3B. Hopefully he'll have enough stick to play there.

Lockdwn11
06-07-2010, 08:24 PM
Yes, he is known most for his defense, so he is a catcher all the way.

Everything I have seen says his Defense is avg. at best and that is his bat that will get him drafted.

11larkin11
06-07-2010, 08:25 PM
I read a scouting report over on SoSH from when they drafted him out of HS, and it mentioned he was the best defensive catcher in the draft. Hart also mentioned on the telecast that his defense was "good, if not spectacular". So I'd like to see some other reports.

Benihana
06-07-2010, 08:26 PM
Between Yasmani, Yonder, and Yorman, we could be the killer Ys in a few years.

Vottomatic
06-07-2010, 08:27 PM
We sure love those Cubans.

Scrap Irony
06-07-2010, 08:28 PM
Reds could have a Y the Last Man Standing Night at the ballpark.

Come dressed as your favorite obscure comic character.

Or perhaps Cuban Cigar Night.

WVRed
06-07-2010, 08:29 PM
I read a scouting report over on SoSH from when they drafted him out of HS, and it mentioned he was the best defensive catcher in the draft. Hart also mentioned on the telecast that his defense was "good, if not spectacular". So I'd like to see some other reports.


Scouting Report
Hitting ability: Strong and physical, Grandal has put up numbers this year, but his hitting overall does not grade out that well. He doesn't have great bat speed

Power: He has a good amount of raw power, though it's not quite plus.

Running speed: He is a well below average runner.

Base running: It's not a part of his game.

Arm strength: His pure grade would be just okay, and his release times aren't great, but he's fairly accurate.

Fielding: He's been strong defensively in the past but doesn't always move his feet well.

Range: He's not the most agile backstop; he's been seen doing better in the past.

Physical Description: Grandal is a big, strong, physical backstop, kind of like a Damon Berryhill type.

Medical Update: Healthy.

Strengths: Good raw power as a switch-hitter; has answered some questions about his bat with his numbers this season; has a solid reputation as a defender.

Weaknesses: Despite a good reputation, his individual defensive tools, other than his arm, don't grade out that well. Lack of bat speed has some concerned about hitting ability.

Summary: Grandal has been on radars since high school, when he opted for the University of Miami rather than the Red Sox. He's come through with his best offensive season at the right time, with consistent production at the plate moving him up Draft boards in a hurry. He's a switch-hitter with some pop, but some worry about his ability as an overall hitter. Defensively, he has a good reputation, but he does need work on things like his footwork. With college catchers always in high demand, Grandal's numbers this spring could very well result in him being the first catcher off the board in the first round

dougdirt
06-07-2010, 08:30 PM
Grandal's defense is suspect IMO. Below average arm strength and he isn't the most accurate thrower either. That doesn't usually go well together.

Scrap Irony
06-07-2010, 08:31 PM
Odd, doug. Every scouting report I've seen said he has an accurate arm. It's one of his best traits, according to mlb.com.

What scouting report are you referring to?

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:32 PM
Anyone have his offensive stats from this year? TIA!

Redmachine2003
06-07-2010, 08:32 PM
IF he signs, I think the plan is for him to remain at Catcher. However, if Mez can continue to rake, they will either have an extremely valuable trade chip or they can move Grandal to 3B. Hopefully he'll have enough stick to play there.
Why move Mez you always need two catchers.

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Hmmm, I wonder if they were hoping to take Deck McGuire and Grandal was Plan B.

dougdirt
06-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Odd, doug. Every scouting report I've seen said he has an accurate arm. It's one of his best traits, according to mlb.com.

What scouting report are you referring to?

http://pnrscouting.com/scoutingreports_2010_grandalya.html
Defense:
Grandal moves well behind the plate and is an adequate receiver. He shows solid footwork but could stand to clean-up his catch-and-throw skills a bit, gunning down just over 20% of would-be-basestealers last spring. With average arm strength and accuracy a tick below, I have his pop times hovering around 2.12. Like most amateur catchers, he'll need to improve on his game calling as a pro.

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:34 PM
Doug, how is Mesoraco's defense? I know he's broken out as a hitter this year (at least when he was in high-A) but how is his defense behind the plate? I notice he DHs a lot.

mdccclxix
06-07-2010, 08:34 PM
Matter of fact, look at Alonso's swing:

YouTube - Yonder Alonso of the Cincinnati Reds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MMkoVnHasA)

and the look at Grandal's:

YouTube - Yasmani Grandal (7-4-2009) USA vs Guatemala (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqsSpF5AWuA)

Pretty damn similar.

11larkin11
06-07-2010, 08:35 PM
Yeah thats the only other report I've seen, and thats what most people are basing this pick on.

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:35 PM
Why move Mez you always need two catchers.

I think he was saying Grandal could move to third. But I think that's ridiculous. If you drafted this kid No. 12 overall because you think he's the catcher of the future, he better stay at catcher!

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Anyone notice that in his final mock draft (Mock 4.0) Keith Law projected that Grandal would go 4th overall to KC? We might have gotten pretty good value for the #12 pick.

lollipopcurve
06-07-2010, 08:46 PM
He's going to have to play himself off catcher, and his play will have to be decisively bad.

Don't see him moving.

flyer85
06-07-2010, 09:10 PM
the Reds didn't draft him to move him off catcher. They have enough guys seemingly without a position

Lockdwn11
06-07-2010, 09:20 PM
I think he was saying Grandal could move to third. But I think that's ridiculous. If you drafted this kid No. 12 overall because you think he's the catcher of the future, he better stay at catcher!

I don't think he plays at 3rd any better than he does at C with his bellow avg. arm Left maybe but he is real slow of foot

Gallen5862
06-07-2010, 09:30 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/

Grandal Finds A Home

Posted Jun. 7, 2010 7:11 pm by John Manuel
Filed under: Draft Day

This draft continues to trend toward college players as the Reds select Yasmani Grandal, a switch-hitting catcher batting .412/.537/.730 with 14 home runs and a 55-37 walk-to-strikeout ratio. Grandal had a huge season for Miami, and the Reds' scouting department has some strong ties to south Florida.

Grandal's defense is the question. He's a solid receiver, but we had mixed reports on Grandal's throwing arm, with some reports of 2.1-second pop times. If the Reds can sign Grandal for money closer to Tony Sanchez (last year's No. 4 selection) rather than Buster Posey (2008's No. 6 selection), they'll get good value at No. 12.

The White Sox at No. 13 have been linked to college pitchers all spring, and the best available are Chris Sale, Brandon Workman, Asher Wojciechowski and Alex Wimmers.

Permalink | Comments [0] »

redsmetz
06-07-2010, 09:33 PM
Between Yasmani, Yonder, and Yorman, we could be the killer Ys in a few years.

Will they resurrect Yul Brynner?

Benihana
06-07-2010, 09:34 PM
I agree he's not moving off of catcher anytime soon (or probably ever).

KoryMac5
06-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Don't love this pick at all, as I would have perferred the pitcher Sale regardless of arm slot questions. I just don't see anything on tape or in the reports that are blowing me away about this kid. Plus his slary demands are reported to be in the neighborhood of Buster Posey. Doesn't seem like a good mix to me. Worst that could happen is the Reds get this pick again in a deeper draft next season.

I could be wrong and I hope I am, this is why scouts are scouting and I am typing on a message board. The Reds most know something I don't on this one.

ILoveWilly
06-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Motion to bump threads from last year saying Leake was a horrible pick. Just to show how many armchair draft experts there were. If the guy can rake, I don't care what the scouting reports way about his defense.

OnBaseMachine
06-07-2010, 10:07 PM
A switch-hitter, Grandal is batting .412 in 59 games with 14 home runs, 56 RBIs and a .537 on-base percentage. Scouting reports from MLB.com indicate he's a strong hitter with some raw power, but that it's not "plus power."

"He's very polished," Buckley said. "He's a plus thrower. He threw out 40 percent of runners this year at the University of Miami. He's well above [average] defensive player, a switch-hitter with power from both sides."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100607&content_id=10914106&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Lockdwn11
06-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Motion to bump threads from last year saying Leake was a horrible pick. Just to show how many armchair draft experts there were. If the guy can rake, I don't care what the scouting reports way about his defense.

Being that you wasn't around last year at this time I will tell you most people on this board like the pick they may have not loved it but the pick was well received.

Mario-Rijo
06-07-2010, 10:36 PM
Don't love this pick at all, as I would have perferred the pitcher Sale regardless of arm slot questions. I just don't see anything on tape or in the reports that are blowing me away about this kid. Plus his slary demands are reported to be in the neighborhood of Buster Posey. Doesn't seem like a good mix to me. Best that could happen is the Reds get this pick again in a deeper draft next season.

I could be wrong and I hope I am, this is why scouts are scouting and I am typing on a message board. The Reds most know something I don't on this one.

There fixed that for ya. Honestly the one guy (ok there was maybe 2) that I didn't want, the Reds are good for doing that. I'm guessing this is another piece to the Aroldis puzzle, the only good news on the pick. Hearing Buckley say that about his defense just kills me, we will see Chris and your reputation will take a major hit if he turns out well below avg defensively. Not only that there is a chance he won't hit either, ughh!

nemesis
06-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Here are his numbers from his Freshman and Sophomore Campaign as well as a season of ball in the Cape Cod League between those two seasons.

Power seems suspect OBP seems legit.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/Yasmani-Grandal.shtml

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 10:46 PM
Can anyone give me a scouting report on Devin Mesoraco defensively? I have to think the Reds don't think Mez has what it takes defensively or they wouldn't have drafted a catcher in the first round for the second time in four years.

Before 2007, the Reds had only drafted catchers in the first round TWICE in club history: Dan LaMar in 1979 and Dan Wilson in 1990. Now we've taken catchers twice in four years. Amazing.

Again, this tells me the organization is not sold on Mesoraco as a catcher. His bat is improving, but maybe not his D? Can anyone confirm this? Refute it?

dougdirt
06-07-2010, 10:48 PM
Can anyone give me a scouting report on Devin Mesoraco defensively? I have to think the Reds don't think Mez has what it takes defensively or they wouldn't have drafted a catcher in the first round for the second time in four years.

Before 2007, the Reds had only drafted catchers in the first round TWICE in club history: Dan LaMar in 1979 and Dan Wilson in 1990. Now we've taken catchers twice in four years. Amazing.

Again, this tells me the organization is not sold on Mesoraco as a catcher. His bat is improving, but maybe not his D? Can anyone confirm this? Refute it?

Mesoraco's defense is just fine. Good arm, accurate arm, calls a fine game. The Reds just took the BPA. It has nothing to do with Mesoraco.

Mario-Rijo
06-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Can anyone give me a scouting report on Devin Mesoraco defensively? I have to think the Reds don't think Mez has what it takes defensively or they wouldn't have drafted a catcher in the first round for the second time in four years.

Before 2007, the Reds had only drafted catchers in the first round TWICE in club history: Dan LaMar in 1979 and Dan Wilson in 1990. Now we've taken catchers twice in four years. Amazing.

Again, this tells me the organization is not sold on Mesoraco as a catcher. His bat is improving, but maybe not his D? Can anyone confirm this? Refute it?

I think this has more to do with potentially giving Aroldis a catcher he can communicate with than anything else. Not to say others can't but Grandal has that going for him and apparently the Reds people feel he is better than the reports we are getting. If he is kudos to them as Grandal could then be a steal but something tells me the Reds people are in the minority on his ability and are wrong on this one. 2 of the worst things you can have as a baseball player (and especially as a catcher) are poor arm strength and the nail in the coffin poor bat speed. I am more concerned about that bat speed than anything else because if true he could be an outright bust at the major league level and we may not even know it until he gets there ala Brandon Larson. If his bat is ok and he is polished defensively then I can live with a so-so arm.

nemesis
06-07-2010, 10:59 PM
I have to think the Reds don't think Mez has what it takes defensively or they wouldn't have drafted a catcher in the first round for the second time in four years.

That's like saying they drafted Alonso because they didn't think Votto's bat would stick at 1B.

It has become obvious that they are going to take the best College player available with the top pick and deal with the logjam issues as they arise. What it does signal is that Soto probably won't stick at Catcher. So I would imagine he gets moved to LF, back to 3B or 1B permanently. Which means he need to hit a whole lot more than he currently is.

Having Grandel and Mez is a great problem to have...

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 11:02 PM
If he was able to rake playing big-boy college baseball at a place like Miami, his bat speed can't be that slow.

11larkin11
06-07-2010, 11:05 PM
I think this pick has 0% to do with Aroldis. The Reds took what they believed was BPA, and I'm happy with the pick.

bubbachunk
06-07-2010, 11:07 PM
That's like saying they drafted Alonso because they didn't think Votto's bat would stick at 1B.

It has become obvious that they are going to take the best College player available with the top pick and deal with the logjam issues as they arise. What it does signal is that Soto probably won't stick at Catcher. So I would imagine he gets moved to LF, back to 3B or 1B permanently. Which means he need to hit a whole lot more than he currently is.

Having Grandel and Mez is a great problem to have...

Or maybe they stick him with Soto as Mez was early in the year to slowly develop Soto alongside with a guy who knows what he is doing. Mez then gets promoted to AAA, Grandal to AA and Soto takes over bulk of the catching duties at high A.

Benihana
06-07-2010, 11:11 PM
Or maybe they stick him with Soto as Mez was early in the year to slowly develop Soto alongside with a guy who knows what he is doing. Mez then gets promoted to AAA, Grandal to AA and Soto takes over bulk of the catching duties at high A.

and Coddington?

I doubt Grandal will sign before the August deadline, if he signs at all. I think they give Soto from now until August to see if the catching experiment works. If it doesn't, he goes back to either 3B or LF and better start to hit, as he'll start next year in AA.

I think Grandal goes the Alonso route of development, and gets a few games in Lynchburg this year before heading to Carolina next year. Hopefully Mez can OPS over .750 for the remainder of this year in AA so that he'll be ready for Louisville next year.

nemesis
06-07-2010, 11:12 PM
Or maybe they stick him with Soto as Mez was early in the year to slowly develop Soto alongside with a guy who knows what he is doing. Mez then gets promoted to AAA, Grandal to AA and Soto takes over bulk of the catching duties at high A.

Man wouldn't it be great to have a pipeline of Hanigan, Denove, Mez, Grandal, Soto, Coddington, Fleury, Manz, Barnhardt, Y. Lopez. Good hitting catchers are the best trading chips any team can have.

Lockdwn11
06-07-2010, 11:15 PM
I truly believe the Reds will never sign this guy and they know it.I may be wrong but I believe that was the plan from the start and Aroldis Chapman is your 1st round pick this year.

aubashbrother
06-07-2010, 11:16 PM
Im a big fan of Barnhardt. Wheres he starting at Billings ?

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2010, 11:18 PM
I like this pick a lot. He's another guy on a short timetable to the major leagues, he switch hits, has power potential and he plays a premium defensive position. I think I remember reading somewhere that he speaks spanish (plus for eventually handling a staff of Volquez, Cueto & Chapman), and he continues to build the Reds organizational ties to Cuban baseball.

Plus, he frees the team to consider packaging Mesoraco for help at the big league level this year, right as he starts to heat up.

Solid pick by Jocketty. Absolutely no complaints this year.

Blitz Dorsey
06-07-2010, 11:27 PM
I truly believe the Reds will never sign this guy and they know it.I may be wrong but I believe that was the plan from the start and Aroldis Chapman is your 1st round pick this year.

Hey Debbie Downer, your SNL skit is about to start. ;-)

Lockdwn11
06-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Hey Debbie Downer, your SNL skit is about to start. ;-)

LOl Funny you should say that. If I sound bummed its because I am. I may be dead wrong about this guy but all the scouting reports I have read leading up to the draft made me not want this guy at all Slow bat,(from the right side) bellow avg. arm behind the plate and well below avg. foot speed . I have a hard time believing almost everybody else is wrong and the Reds scouts are right on this one. Grandal wants alot (reported 6 mill) of money to sign. The Reds know this and was said to be looking for a player at slot money. Grandal isn't going to sign for slot and the only thing that makes sense to me is the Reds are counting on this being the case. They have Chapman this year and two 1st round picks in a much better 2011 draft.

nemesis
06-08-2010, 12:25 AM
Grandal wants alot (reported 6 mill) of money to sign.

Incorrect. according to MLBTR:

The Royals' and Grandal had agreed to a predraft offer of $2.9MM. Yasmani Grandal then was offered $3.5ish by Cleveland. When Grandal went back to KC with this info they dropped him. Then Cleveland didn't even draft the kid, which to me is odd. The Reds had to know this. They have no intention of punting the pick. There was enough quality, signable talent at 12 that they coulda chose and let Grandal slide right by. Bet they have a deal in place by July 1st. Give him 30 games behind the plate in Dayton. AZFL, then Lynchburg to start next year.

Offer him $3MM. same money 8 spots later.... Take it or leave it.

Brentz, Vitek, Deglan already have deals so the ball is already rolling...

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 05:03 AM
I think this pick has 0% to do with Aroldis. The Reds took what they believed was BPA, and I'm happy with the pick.

Nothing at all huh, just coincidence that they chose a cuban speaking catcher? I find that hard to believe and maybe they did also think he was BPA but the fact that he can communicate with Aroldis had to play into making his worth more to them.

BTW an informative read:

Palm Beach Post (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/hurricanes/cuban-emigre-yasmani-grandal-has-blossomed-into-a-725647.html)


Cuban emigre Yasmani Grandal has blossomed into a star catcher for Miami

CORAL GABLES — On his first day in the United States, 10-year-old Yasmani Grandal sat in front of a TV set at his uncle's home and wolfed down two huge Cuban sandwiches, slowing only to wash it down with a jug of Coke.

Within two months, the scrawny Cuban émigré had packed on 20 pounds....

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 05:09 AM
LOl Funny you should say that. If I sound bummed its because I am. I may be dead wrong about this guy but all the scouting reports I have read leading up to the draft made me not want this guy at all Slow bat,(from the right side) bellow avg. arm behind the plate and well below avg. foot speed . I have a hard time believing almost everybody else is wrong and the Reds scouts are right on this one. Grandal wants alot (reported 6 mill) of money to sign. The Reds know this and was said to be looking for a player at slot money. Grandal isn't going to sign for slot and the only thing that makes sense to me is the Reds are counting on this being the case. They have Chapman this year and two 1st round picks in a much better 2011 draft.

I don't know if I agree but you paint a compelling picture here.

JaxRed
06-08-2010, 06:45 AM
This pick has NOTHING to do with Chapman. Even if he does speak "Cuban". I like the pick, and hope he signs quickly.

OesterPoster
06-08-2010, 08:02 AM
I like the pick too, and I don't quite understand all the lamenting over too many catching prospects in the pipeline. It wasn't too long ago that a lot of posters were salivating over the Rangers big 3 catching prospects, Teagarden, Salty, and Ramirez. You can't really say that any of those 3 has panned out yet, so I don't see the big deal with having a high pedigree catcher at a couple levels of the system.

bucksfan2
06-08-2010, 08:41 AM
Nothing at all huh, just coincidence that they chose a cuban speaking catcher? I find that hard to believe and maybe they did also think he was BPA but the fact that he can communicate with Aroldis had to play into making his worth more to them.

I think your reading way too much into this. I think this has little if anything to do with Champan. If it did I would be disappointed. You could say his ability to speak spanish is a plus, but it isn't bigger than a list of baseball skills that he has.

I like this pick. I like the fact that he is a switch hitter who hit pretty damn well last season at Miami. I don't know if he stick at C, but if his bat is good enough the Reds will find a place for him to play. I think they got their best offensive bat available in what many are saying is an overall weak draft class.

It never ceases to amaze me that many still think that this organization is going to punt a pick because Bowden did that with Sowers a handful of years ago. This current scouting department has been pretty darn good at getting talent into the Reds farm system. I see no signs of any punting of this pick.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 08:48 AM
This pick has NOTHING to do with Chapman. Even if he does speak "Cuban". I like the pick, and hope he signs quickly.

So I can't suppose it is but you can be sure it's not? It may not have been the main reason but I find it hard to believe that his stock wasn't propped up a bit more to the Reds for this reason.

bucksfan2
06-08-2010, 08:57 AM
So I can't suppose it is but you can be sure it's not? It may not have been the main reason but I find it hard to believe that his stock wasn't propped up a bit more to the Reds for this reason.

If they draft a white English speaking catcher is that because of Bailey and Leake?

pahster
06-08-2010, 09:14 AM
If they draft a white English speaking catcher is that because of Bailey and Leake?

You mean "U.S. American" speaking catcher? ;)

medford
06-08-2010, 09:18 AM
I'm going to jump to conclusions and assume that the plan is to have Chapman, Cueto and Volquez speak English well enough that a baseball conversation at the mound will not be a problem. Actualy, Cueto and Volquez are already there, don't know about Chapman, but just in general life terms, it would be a shame if the Reds weren't getting Chapman help in speaking English well. Its not like he can return home anytime soon, so he better have a decent enough handle on English. It is certainly a plus that Grandal speaks spanish, but I shouldn't make all that much of a difference when selecting a 1st round draft pick. If they passed on somebody with better baseball skills to take a catcher b/c he speaks "cuban" then that is a poor plan. I bet if I walked to the mound in the middle of a game and said fastball to Chapman, he would know what I was talking about. Frame the glove where you want him to throw it, and he'll know where to aim.

Heck, for all we know, Mes may speak passable spanish, or at least enough to handle a baseball conversation on the mound. Go back to the start of last season, and the Catching spot may have been considered the weakest link in the organization. Flashforward to today, and you feel pretty good about Hanigan, love the development of Mes the last season +, are excited about the potential in Soto and pick up the top college catcher in the draft. You go from a weak link, to having a lot of potential at the position in 18 months.

Ghosts of 1990
06-08-2010, 09:25 AM
Is the thinking that Grandall and Sardinah (sp) will be the future of the position at the MLB level or have the Reds brass given up on the former 1st round pick?

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 09:26 AM
If they draft a white English speaking catcher is that because of Bailey and Leake?

If I recall wasn't part of the reason for trading for Ramon in the 1st place was to better communicate with the young spanish speaking pitchers? How many games has 3rd string catcher Wilkin Castillo caught Chapman, how many times has the starting catcher Corky Miller caught him? Castillo barely even got to catch last season and now he is Aroldis' personal caddy, because he speaks spanish. Oh no that has nothing to do with it.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 09:41 AM
I'm going to jump to conclusions and assume that the plan is to have Chapman, Cueto and Volquez speak English well enough that a baseball conversation at the mound will not be a problem. Actualy, Cueto and Volquez are already there, don't know about Chapman, but just in general life terms, it would be a shame if the Reds weren't getting Chapman help in speaking English well. Its not like he can return home anytime soon, so he better have a decent enough handle on English. It is certainly a plus that Grandal speaks spanish, but I shouldn't make all that much of a difference when selecting a 1st round draft pick. If they passed on somebody with better baseball skills to take a catcher b/c he speaks "cuban" then that is a poor plan. I bet if I walked to the mound in the middle of a game and said fastball to Chapman, he would know what I was talking about. Frame the glove where you want him to throw it, and he'll know where to aim.

Heck, for all we know, Mes may speak passable spanish, or at least enough to handle a baseball conversation on the mound. Go back to the start of last season, and the Catching spot may have been considered the weakest link in the organization. Flashforward to today, and you feel pretty good about Hanigan, love the development of Mes the last season +, are excited about the potential in Soto and pick up the top college catcher in the draft. You go from a weak link, to having a lot of potential at the position in 18 months.

Of course it would be a poor plan which is why people refuse to believe it had anything to do with it. The fact is at least according to various pieces of information all over this site they did pass on better guys OR they aren't that hot at judging talent. Well we know they aren't completely devoid of the latter they have done a fair job of judging solid guys. I guess the other explanation is those reports we get have no merit, ok fine let's just go with that one so we feel better now and put off our disappointment for later. If his bat is as advertised by some evaluators he won't make it to the bigs and/or stick for very long ala Brandon Larson, high risk move. If his arm is as advertised by some he will have a fair disadvantage on defense as well. We know he is a below average runner and doesn't move like a cat behind the plate. So why are you drafting this guy with such risk and with such a low ceiling in the 1st round? At best he sounds like a David Ross type with a lesser arm. I just think it is a poor selection and I am just as entitled to feel that way as anyone is to feel like he is a good selection. The reports we have back up my argument and it's the cuban connection that give some rationale for the pick.

reds1869
06-08-2010, 09:52 AM
I am very curious about the idea that he is sub-par behind the plate. Every scouting report I've read pre-draft ranks him as one of the elite defensive catchers in college baseball--including a strong throwing arm and great reflexes. The only real question defensively is his pop time. Having watched him play, I have to agree on all counts. Why the sudden thought that his defense is sub-par?

Kc61
06-08-2010, 10:03 AM
I think that the reasoning for the pick is quite simple. Catcher is a difficult position to fill. Catchers have a lot of value, especially if they can hit. And more so if they switch hit. Reds do have Mesoraco but have been thin at catcher in the organization.

I think that's probably the reasoning - Grandal's value is high because he plays a premium position on the field. Now let's sign him.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 10:05 AM
Of course it would be a poor plan which is why people refuse to believe it had anything to do with it. The fact is at least according to various pieces of information all over this site they did pass on better guys OR they aren't that hot at judging talent. Well we know they aren't completely devoid of the latter they have done a fair job of judging solid guys. I guess the other explanation is those reports we get have no merit, ok fine let's just go with that one so we feel better now and put off our disappointment for later. If his bat is as advertised by some evaluators he won't make it to the bigs and/or stick for very long ala Brandon Larson, high risk move. If his arm is as advertised by some he will have a fair disadvantage on defense as well. We know he is a below average runner and doesn't move like a cat behind the plate. So why are you drafting this guy with such risk and with such a low ceiling in the 1st round? At best he sounds like a David Ross type with a lesser arm. I just think it is a poor selection and I am just as entitled to feel that way as anyone is to feel like he is a good selection. The reports we have back up my argument and it's the cuban connection that give some rationale for the pick.

I'm sorry MR, but I think you are completely off the mark here.

The Royals wanted him at 4, and the Indians wanted him at 5. It was only because they didn't like how he handled predraft negotiations that both of these teams passed on him, at least, according to ALL published reports.

BA, Keith Law, Frankie Pilerre, and just about every other scouting website had him ranked as the best catcher available and a top 20 player overall. So all of your talk about his sub-par scouting report is simply exaggeration at best and nonsense at worst. The fact that he speaks Spanish could be a hidden bonus, but he is no less than the 3rd Reds 1st round pick out of the last 11 years to be from Miami and of Cuban descent. The other two were drafted long before anyone had ever heard of Aroldis Chapman.

Besides, so what if Mesoraco or Hanigan catches Bailey and Leake (and Wood/Maloney/LeCure if/when they pitch) while Grandal ends up catching Cueto, Volquez, and Chapman?

Benihana
06-08-2010, 10:15 AM
From notorious Reds hater Keith Law's column today, by way of MLBTR:


Law felt that the Reds took the best player available at #12 in college catcher Yasmani Grandal, and having strong catching depth in the system will not be a bad thing.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm sorry MR, but I think you are completely off the mark here.

The Royals wanted him at 4, and the Indians wanted him at 5. It was only because they didn't like how he handled predraft negotiations that both of these teams passed on him, at least, according to ALL published reports.

BA, Keith Law, Frankie Pilerre, and just about every other scouting website had him ranked as the best catcher available and a top 20 player overall. So all of your talk about his sub-par scouting report is simply exaggeration at best and nonsense at worst. The fact that he speaks Spanish could be a hidden bonus, but he is no less than the 3rd Reds 1st round pick out of the last 11 years to be from Miami and of Cuban descent. The other two were drafted long before anyone had ever heard of Aroldis Chapman.

Besides, so what if Mesoraco or Hanigan catches Bailey and Leake (and Wood/Maloney/LeCure if/when they pitch) while Grandal ends up catching Cueto, Volquez, and Chapman?

How am I exaggerating? He does have a sup par scouting report. And just because he was ranked so high doesn't make it right to draft him high. I believe in scouting reports if they are done by guys who can be trusted to accurately judge the players. Now it's certainly no gaurantee that the reports I have read on him are accurate but that is all we have to go off of currently. I could be completely off base on the guy, I can admit that now and if need be I will in the future. But I am not gonna just trust he is a good pick because the Reds made it. I am skeptical in part because it's just in my nature I guess thru years of other vast majority of players not being as advertised. SO as I sit and question why the Reds would take a guy who people think may have some potentially large and serious flaws I have to think of any positives he might have and I think he might have more value to the Reds than most with his ability to communicate with a very important some might say critical young player/pitcher. I am not saying his entire value is there to the Reds but I think maybe they gave it more merit than other teams did, considering the circumstances.

As for other teams liking him well let's just say if it were someone with a better track record than the current KC and Cleveland regimes I might be swayed. Just to put this to rest let's just say I am leaning skeptical of this pick and would have liked someone else (several of them actually) with less downside and more upside. That doesn't mean I think he's a definite bust because again where I heard the negatives could be wrong. Why everyone is up in the air because I think his ability to communicate with Aroldis gave him a little more value to the Reds is a bit mind boggling. And the only reason I am arguing back is because others think it had nothing to do with it, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 10:57 AM
How am I exaggerating? He does have a sup par scouting report. And just because he was ranked so high doesn't make it right to draft him high. I believe in scouting reports if they are done by guys who can be trusted to accurately judge the players. Now it's certainly no gaurantee that the reports I have read on him are accurate but that is all we have to go off of currently. I could be completely off base on the guy, I can admit that now and if need be I will in the future. But I am not gonna just trust he is a good pick because the Reds made it. I am skeptical in part because it's just in my nature I guess thru years of other vast majority of players not being as advertised. SO as I sit and question why the Reds would take a guy who people think may have some potentially large and serious flaws I have to think of any positives he might have and I think he might have more value to the Reds than most with his ability to communicate with a very important some might say critical young player/pitcher. I am not saying his entire value is there to the Reds but I think maybe they gave it more merit than other teams did, considering the circumstances.

As for other teams liking him well let's just say if it were someone with a better track record than the current KC and Cleveland regimes I might be swayed. Just to put this to rest let's just say I am leaning skeptical of this pick and would have liked someone else (several of them actually) with less downside and more upside. That doesn't mean I think he's a definite bust because again where I heard the negatives could be wrong. Why everyone is up in the air because I think his ability to communicate with Aroldis gave him a little more value to the Reds is a bit mind boggling. And the only reason I am arguing back is because others think it had nothing to do with it, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

FWIW, you also panned the Leake pick last year because you thought the Reds were cheaping out. Not trying to call you out, but I do think you have exhibited a track record for suspecting ulterior motives and not giving the current scouting regime enough credit.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 11:06 AM
I am very curious about the idea that he is sub-par behind the plate. Every scouting report I've read pre-draft ranks him as one of the elite defensive catchers in college baseball--including a strong throwing arm and great reflexes. The only real question defensively is his pop time. Having watched him play, I have to agree on all counts. Why the sudden thought that his defense is sub-par?

I have read concerns that his arm strength is average at best, he is big and not real athletic behind the plate, and his accuracy is average to a tick below. Perhaps you just haven't read them all, and to be fair neither have I so just to be fair to everyone I'll go thru all of them I can find/get to and try to reassess him.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 11:13 AM
FWIW, you also panned the Leake pick last year because you thought the Reds were cheaping out. Not trying to call you out, but I do think you have exhibited a track record for suspecting ulterior motives and not giving the current scouting regime enough credit.

Absolutely I did and still do really, though to be fair I was much more down on the Boxberger pick than the Leake pick because again they could have made a better pick in my opinion. But I don't think what I have brought up here is an alterior motive and haven't suggested that they drafted Grandal strictly because he can communicate with Aroldis. Apparently that is just what people are skimming thru my post and coming up with. But as I told Reds1869 I'll look over the available scouting reports I have access to and see if I missed something on Grandal.

As far as the scouting regime I'll give them extra credit (because I have given them credit where/when it's due) when they earn it. Personally I think they are a bit too conservative which is fine but every once in a while I'd like to see them go after a guy with 5 tool talent and develop them.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 11:21 AM
Absolutely I did and still do really, though to be fair I was much more down on the Boxberger pick than the Leake pick because again they could have made a better pick in my opinion. But I don't think what I have brought up here is an alterior motive and haven't suggested that they drafted Grandal strictly because he can communicate with Aroldis. Apparently that is just what people are skimming thru my post and coming up with. But as I told Reds1869 I'll look over the available scouting reports I have access to and see if I missed something on Grandal.

As far as the scouting regime I'll give them extra credit (because I have given them credit where/when it's due) when they earn it. Personally I think they are a bit too conservative which is fine but every once in a while I'd like to see them go after a guy with 5 tool talent and develop them.

Wait, so you still don't like the Leake pick?

Again, FWIW, I was with you on Boxberger. I really wanted Tanner Scheppers (and so far, it looks like we were right on that one.) Not to say that the media scouting reports/projections are always correct (they certainly aren't), but they all had both Leake and Grandal projected to go where they did. They had Scheppers ranked much higher than Boxberger, although there were the obvious health questions related to Scheppers.

Cedric
06-08-2010, 11:25 AM
I'm not sure about this pick. I usually always lean towards the guys that do this for a living and see a kid countless times. This one though has me kind of baffled.
I would suggest that centering the ball and driving it is the most important thing a position player does. I don't see how anyone can watch the swing of Grandal and see a player that will drive the baseball. He just looks like he is swinging under water.

Hopefully it's a mechanical flaw or I"m just wrong.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 11:34 AM
Wait, so you still don't like the Leake pick?

Again, FWIW, I was with you on Boxberger. I really wanted Tanner Scheppers (and so far, it looks like we were right on that one.) Not to say that the media scouting reports/projections are always correct (they certainly aren't), but they all had both Leake and Grandal projected to go where they did. They had Scheppers ranked much higher than Boxberger, although there were the obvious health questions related to Scheppers.

No I never disliked Leake in fact I thought it was a good pick, just a good safe and cheap pick IMO. Which there is nothing wrong with perse, just preferred others....at the time. Not sure I still do prefer others, get back to me on that one. With Grandal again I don't necc. dislike the pick in fact I like taking catchers with big bats and I really like switch hitting players (though I think he will end up a LHH only if he is smart) and I like the intangibles and polish more than others usually. What I don't like doing is taking a chance on a guy with a flaw that could eventually be a critical one (bat speed) in the 1st round and I just am not a fan of catchers with less than stellar arms, again not 1st round worthy. Grandal in the supp 1st, Grandal in the 2nd I would have been ecstatic about. And I think there were just as safe picks with as much or more upside than him there, so it's really just a issue with not getting the value I thought they could have with the 12th pick in the draft, that's all.

lollipopcurve
06-08-2010, 11:42 AM
I don't see how anyone can watch the swing of Grandal and see a player that will drive the baseball. He just looks like he is swinging under water.

There used to be whispers that Votto had a slow bat.

All I know is that Grandal's numbers in 2010 verge on astronomical, and he's in a strong conference.

Blitz Dorsey
06-08-2010, 11:44 AM
Is the thinking that Grandall and Sardinah (sp) will be the future of the position at the MLB level or have the Reds brass given up on the former 1st round pick?

Dane Sardinah? Wow you are going back about a decade there. He never made it and is now out of baseball I believe. (Or is still in the minors with another organization at best.) Maybe you meant Devin Mesoraco. And yes, I think the team believes Grandal and Mez are the future at the position.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 11:46 AM
From MLBTR:


College shortstop Christian Colon was always the Royals' top choice at #4, writes Bob Dutton of the Kansas City Star. The Royals told Dutton that links to Yasmani Grandal and Chris Sale were a smokescreen.

This doesn't make any sense to me. When you can't trade picks, why would you need a smokescreen- at least in a situation where there was a consensus top 3, and Colon wasn't a part of it? Maybe I could understand if they were using Grandal as a smokescreen in order to drive Colon's price down, but they haven't agreed to a deal yet, so there is no point to that. This just doesn't make any sense.

Blitz Dorsey
06-08-2010, 11:49 AM
From MLBTR:



This doesn't make any sense to me. When you can't trade picks, why would you need a smokescreen- at least in a situation where there was a consensus top 3, and Colon wasn't a part of it? Maybe I could understand if they were using Grandal as a smokescreen in order to drive Colon's price down, but they haven't agreed to a deal yet, so there is no point to that. This just doesn't make any sense.

You answered your own question. I think the "smokescreen" (if true) was to drive Colon's price down. Perhaps they made a gentlemen's agreement with his agent that "We'll pay you X if we take you with the #4 pick." Colon didn't want to risk slipping out of the top 10 and took the deal.

Course, maybe this is just some local spin from the KC paper.

KoryMac5
06-08-2010, 11:49 AM
Since KC and Cleveland were interested and perhaps talked with his people about signability does that mean Grandal will still want 4-5 slot money from the Reds at 12. If the Reds sign him I have the feeling that they will have to go above slot to do it. All indications before the draft was that the Reds were unwilling to do that.

I agree with Mario to an extent on the scouting report in that coming out of HS this kid was supposed to be a defensive wizard, now reading some of the reports out there it shows that his footwork needs polish and his pop times to 2nd have slowed since HS. I think the kid will grow on me as I hear he is a natural leader and catchers are so hard to come by. It really depends on if the Reds can get him into camp and start working with him quickly.

Can't say I love the pick, but it wasn't kick my TV hate either.

OnBaseMachine
06-08-2010, 11:56 AM
There used to be whispers that Votto had a slow bat.


I remember that too. Scouts said the reason he hit the ball to left field so much was because he didn't have the bat speed to turn on a fastball. That proved to be a ridiculous statement.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 12:14 PM
You answered your own question. I think the "smokescreen" (if true) was to drive Colon's price down. Perhaps they made a gentlemen's agreement with his agent that "We'll pay you X if we take you with the #4 pick." Colon didn't want to risk slipping out of the top 10 and took the deal.

Course, maybe this is just some local spin from the KC paper.

If Colon signs in the next day or two, I agree.

But I'm not sure that he will. Assuming no deal was in place, why would they have a smokescreen?

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 12:15 PM
I remember that too. Scouts said the reason he hit the ball to left field so much was because he didn't have the bat speed to turn on a fastball. That proved to be a ridiculous statement.

I don't know for sure but I heard that once from the guy blogging for ESPN in the Futures game the year Joey went. I assumed he had to have some sort of experience to comment plus the fact he was working for ESPN I maybe gave him a bit too much credit. But just so were clear I never said his bat was slow I just always felt it was neccessary to add that this guy stated it and I wondered on occasion if he was right. It appears he was wrong but it's always worth mentioning everything just so we can look for it/ be prepared for it. IMO it's better to not get our expectations too high if there is any reason whatsoever for doubt. I know you weren't referring to me OBM just know that some will think I stated his bat speed wasn't up to par and want to set that record straight from the get go. But that is the only place I ever heard about Votto's bat speed being a potential issue.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 12:16 PM
If Colon signs in the next day or two, I agree.

But I'm not sure that he will. Assuming no deal was in place, why would they have a smokescreen?

Well apparently they already allegedly have parameters in place for a deal with Colon.

Mario-Rijo
06-08-2010, 12:42 PM
Keith Law:

Link (http://www.baseballrumormill.com/2010/04/updated-scouting-reports-yasmani-grandal-matt-harvey/)


Yasmani Grandal, Miami, C

Grandal is a switch-hitter, but his left-handed swing is superior to his right-handed swing, something that has shown up in his splits this year. From the left side, he doesn't stride in BP and his front side is very rigid, but he did step forward in games and had a more consistent weight transfer. He has good hip rotation and excellent follow-through, with a swing path that should produce above-average power. From the right side, he lacks the same bat speed and his swing is more linear, with a weak finish where he turns his wrists over and flattens the swing out.

Behind the plate, Grandal has always been solid, and his arm remains plus and accurate, with a quick release. He's a well below-average runner, but he moves his feet well behind the plate. He's the top college catcher in the country, can absolutely stay behind the plate, and hits well enough to be an above-average player in the majors.

Law seems to think highly of him, chalk one up for the pro pick bunch.

PNRscouting:

Link (http://www.pnrscouting.com/scoutingreports_2010_grandalya.html)


Frame:
Grandal has a large, lean, muscular frame. Close to filled-out, he moves reasonably well for his size and should not have to worry about a position switch due to further growth. He also shows solid flexibility and athleticism.

Swing:
Grandal sets-up and loads well, with his hands high and in good position to strike the quadrants. He gets good extension, though it comes a little early at times and with a longish swing. Though the Miami backstop shows big raw power both pre- and in-game, he can struggle with pitch-ID, showing some trouble with off-speed stuff and getting well out in front. He has a good understanding of the strike zone but has pressed a little this summer, uncharacteristically expanding the zone and failing to make consistent contact.

Defense:
Grandal moves well behind the plate and is an adequate receiver. He shows solid footwork but could stand to clean-up his catch-and-throw skills a bit, gunning down just over 20% of would-be-basestealers last spring. With average arm strength and accuracy a tick below, I have his pop times hovering around 2.12. Like most amateur catchers, he'll need to improve on his game calling as a pro.

Nick's Notes:
There is big time upside in Grandal's bat, though he'll need to tighten his swing some and improve his pitch-ID to fully tap into his power. His bat speed, as well as his struggles with wood this summer, could cause him to slip down some boards, despite his leading the Hurricanes last year with 16 homeruns. Though some of the luster may be off, Grandal is still one of the top catchers to watch in the 2010 class, and he'll have plenty of eyes on him as he takes cuts in the middle of the Miami order this spring. Cutting down on his large stride could help him with the off-speed stuff, as it would allow him to prevent from committing to the pitch too early.

Projected Position - C
Suggested Draft Slot - Late-1st to 3rd Round


GRADING OUT (FUTURE):
Hitting: 40 (45)
Power: 50 (60)
Speed: 40 (40)
Defense: 40/45 (50)
Arm: 50/55 (55)

PNR is so so on him not liking his arm as much as Law.

PGCrossChecker:

Link (http://www.perfectgame.org/Articles/View.aspx?article=4760)


SCOUTING PROFILE (3/1):The top high-school catcher in the 2007 draft to attend college, Grandal was viewed as a potential first-rounder that year before becoming an afterthought because of signability concerns. He has always had the ingredients to be a top-level catcher—arm strength, clean release, quick feet, durable body and leadership skills—but hasn’t blossomed in college at the plate as scouts predicted. In high school, Grandal led the talented Miami-area prep ranks in home runs and RBIs, but batted only .234-7-28 as a freshman at Miami. He appeared to come on strong as a sophomore for the Hurricanes, hitting .299-16-45, only to regress during the summer with USA Baseball’s college national team. He hit just .182 with three homers, and his poor showing at the plate raised a red flag or two among scouts, particularly when he let his emotions get the better of him, on occasion, and impacted his play behind the plate. Through the first half of the 2010 season, he led Miami with a .388 average, but his home-run total had slipped to three. A switch-hitter, Grandal has greater bat speed and more power from the left side, but generally feels more comfortable and is a better overall hitter from the right side. More than anything, he’ll need to shorten his swing at the next level as he makes a full-time adjustment to wood. Defensively, the 6-foot-2, 210-pound Grandal has one of the strongest throwing arms in the country and blocks the ball well, though his receiving skills are open to question. His demeanor and game-calling skills are obvious strengths. A native of Cuba who came to the United States with his mother at age 8, Grandal played shortstop until he was 15 years old before outgrowing that position and moving behind the plate. There was a long line of big-league teams ready to give Grandal top-round money out of high school, but his commitment to play for hometown Miami was unwavering and he slid to the Boston Red Sox in the 27th-round of the 2007 draft. He’ll just need to continue to hit with more consistency as a junior to return to first-round consideration in 2010.—ALLAN SIMPSON

UPDATE (5/15): Grandal has emphatically answered all the questions about his bat with a torrid run through ACC play that pushed his numbers to .425-12-53 (through mid-May). He has adjusted well against quality pitching, as well, which was evidenced by a May 14 matchup against Georgia Tech’s Deck McGuire, when he hit an opposite-field home run against a changeup away and a double off the center field wall on a high fastball. There are increasing concerns about his ability to hit from the right side, as he continues to struggle in game action from that side, but he has given no indication that he is willing to give up switch-hitting. He has secured a place as the top catcher available behind Bryce Harper.—ANDY SEILER

PGCC seems to like him and think his LH swing is good enough as well as his arm. 2-1 pro pick folks.

BA: Don't have access to BA so I'll just point to this from Cedric in the draft thread.


Read two reports about lack of bat speed with Grindal. One from BA. There isn't anything scarier than drafting a kid that early and he can't hit with a wooden bat.

I'd say there is enough there that we shouldn't just expect him to be worthy of the pick for sure.

Blitz Dorsey
06-08-2010, 12:47 PM
Why is this thread automatically in the minor league forum? Hasn't Mike Leake taught us anything? Grandal might never play an inning in the minor leagues. Move this thread to the ORG where it belongs. ;-)

Ghosts of 1990
06-08-2010, 12:53 PM
Dane Sardinah? Wow you are going back about a decade there. He never made it and is now out of baseball I believe. (Or is still in the minors with another organization at best.) Maybe you meant Devin Mesoraco. And yes, I think the team believes Grandal and Mez are the future at the position.

Apologize it was early.... haha.

It was Devin Mesoraco

Danny Serafini
06-08-2010, 01:09 PM
Dane Sardinah? Wow you are going back about a decade there. He never made it and is now out of baseball I believe. (Or is still in the minors with another organization at best.) Maybe you meant Devin Mesoraco. And yes, I think the team believes Grandal and Mez are the future at the position.

I got to watch both Sardinha and David Espinosa play for the Mud Hens a couple of years ago. Good times.

RedsManRick
06-08-2010, 01:20 PM
From Jeff Sackmann at THT:


12. Yasmani Grandal - Reds. Love it, love it, love it. I would've popped Grandal at 4 or 5. He'll be expensive, but he was definitely the best player left on the board here. It creates a little bit of a logjam with Devin Mesoraco's emergence, but that's no reason to skip a top-10 talent.

Cedric
06-08-2010, 01:23 PM
From Jeff Sackmann at THT:

Enough for me. I imagine the bat speed thing is overplayed or possibly just from the right side.

reds1869
06-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Enough for me. I imagine the bat speed thing is overplayed or possibly just from the right side.

I agree. I would be shocked if he had more than a handful of ABs from the rights side as a professional. Lefthand is his bread and butter.

jmcclain19
06-08-2010, 05:44 PM
I'm betting given that Grandal shares tons of similarites with Alonso - Same School, same agent, same hitting numbers - that it goes down to the wire and he only plays in the AFL this year.

And for anyone wondering about Mesorasco & Soto - Take a gander at the Angels & Rangers recent history with highly rated catchers in the minor league system. Some of those guys are going to fail - plain & simple. Doesn't hurt to have a backup plan at a premium position.

It's insane that the Reds have been a catching wasteland for so long, and now the team is rife with potential big league catchers.

mdccclxix
06-08-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm betting given that Grandal shares tons of similarites with Alonso - Same School, same agent, same hitting numbers - that it goes down to the wire and he only plays in the AFL this year.

And for anyone wondering about Mesorasco & Soto - Take a gander at the Angels & Rangers recent history with highly rated catchers in the minor league system. Some of those guys are going to fail - plain & simple. Doesn't hurt to have a backup plan at a premium position.

It's insane that the Reds have been a catching wasteland for so long, and now the team is rife with potential big league catchers.

Hopefully he (and the Reds) learns from Yonder's mistake and signs early so he can start getting acclimated sooner. I thought with all that both sides demanded from Yonder it was a shame to waste July and August on negotiations.

Puffy
06-08-2010, 05:59 PM
Scott Boras's M.O. is to not even begin negotiations until 3 days before the deadline. I am with Josh here that its probably AFL all the way.

Benihana
06-08-2010, 06:14 PM
Scott Boras's M.O. is to not even begin negotiations until 3 days before the deadline. I am with Josh here that its probably AFL all the way.

Good thing Scott Boras isn't his agent ;)

But I agree- I think Grandal will probably follow a similar path to Alonso, both in negotiations and how he goes through the minors. Hopefully he has more success than Alonso has had so far.

NorrisHopper30
06-08-2010, 06:17 PM
I love his OBP.

Puffy
06-08-2010, 06:24 PM
My bad - I thought I read that Boras was advising Grandal

OnBaseMachine
06-08-2010, 06:44 PM
From John Fay - Grandal says he’s ready to sign


Reds’ top pick, Yasmani Grandal, denied that his agents tried to work a pre-draft deal with the Kansas City Royals or anyone one else.

“That’s not accurate,” he said. “I didn’t have any pre-draft deals. I had no clue what was going on. I don’t know where the rumor started. I didn’t speak the Royals or anybody.”

Grandal said he is signable.

“I’m ready to start,’ he said. “A professional career is what I’ve always wanted. For the Reds to give me an opportunity, to be picked in the first round, it’s just great. I’m ready to go.”


to read more: http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/06/08/grandal-says-hes-ready-to-sign/

HeatherC1212
06-08-2010, 08:41 PM
Yasmani Grandal was on the phone with Thom and Chris during the game tonight and he seems like a good kid with a decent head on his shoulders. He said he's ready to begin his professional career, he actually knew a little bit about the team and it's history (rattled off a few names from the Big Red Machine including Johnny, Pete, and Tony Perez), and also said that with his game being rained out last night and the team having to finish that game today, all the draft stuff hasn't quite hit him yet. He said he thinks it will very soon though! He seemed kind of quiet but maybe he was just still trying to soak everything in. Good kid. I really like this pick. :)

OnBaseMachine
06-09-2010, 01:29 AM
With the Reds selecting a catcher in the first round, it was only a matter of time before the name of Johnny Bench was uttered during the conversation. Bench, a Reds legend and Hall of Famer, is considered by many to be the greatest catcher of all time.

"I'm speechless," Grandal said of playing for the same organization as Bench. "I just want to thank the Reds for giving me the opportunity to follow the types of footsteps like Johnny Bench and the other great players that have played for the Reds."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100608&content_id=10945754&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

COM2010
06-09-2010, 02:59 AM
When I listened to that conversation between Chris and Thom, and Yasmani, I was impressed that he knew of the Reds greats. He didn't sound like he was just reciting names, it was the way he talked about the greats that told me he KNOWS the Reds.

On the negative side, he didn't sound all that confident about getting things rolling with the Reds. Maybe it was just the whole "being realistic" thing about even getting to the big leagues, or maybe he got a little spooked with all the "Good luck" wishings from Chris and Thom. :cool:

klw
08-06-2010, 04:31 PM
Grandal update from Fay
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/06/update-of-yasmani-grandal/


I also asked Walt Jocketty about top pick Yasmani Grandal.

“We haven’t done much,” Jocketty said. “They told us how much money they wanted. That’s about it. It will come down to next week.”

camisadelgolf
08-06-2010, 04:50 PM
It wouldn't break my heart if he doesn't sign. Next year's draft is looking stronger, and this is the best the organization's catching has been in years.

I remember a time when the Reds had all these guys in the minors within a year or two of each other:
Jason LaRue
Corky Miller
Guillermo Garcia
Jayhawk Owens
Justin Towle (such a heart-breaker when he retired)
Brook Fordyce
Paul Bako

WebScorpion
08-07-2010, 12:04 AM
I just have a feeling he's going to sign, but I wouldn't be crushed if we got a comp pick in next year's draft.

On a side note, Dane Sardinha was a non-roster invitee to the Phils spring training and he's now their backup catcher. He got his first Major League home run this season at the age of 31. He can still catch and throw with the best of them, but he never did learn how to hit with a wooden stick. Good luck to him. :thumbup:

Patrick Bateman
08-07-2010, 05:50 PM
It wouldn't break my heart if he doesn't sign. Next year's draft is looking stronger, and this is the best the organization's catching has been in years.

I remember a time when the Reds had all these guys in the minors within a year or two of each other:
Jason LaRue
Corky Miller
Guillermo Garcia
Jayhawk Owens
Justin Towle (such a heart-breaker when he retired)
Brook Fordyce
Paul Bako

What was the story behind Towle?

camisadelgolf
08-07-2010, 07:25 PM
What was the story behind Towle?
He had excellent numbers as a minor leaguer and was a legitimate prospect, but he had a nasty shoulder injury that required surgery. He became a minor league free agent and went to camp with Seattle (his hometown), but he retired after a serious back injury if my memory serves me correctly.

Hondo
08-07-2010, 07:53 PM
Was this Yasmani Grandal the best available player on the board at the time of pick #12 ?

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 09:11 PM
Agree with Web and camisa. I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if we don't sign this guy.

LoganBuck
08-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Was this Yasmani Grandal the best available player on the board at the time of pick #12 ?

Pretty much.

camisadelgolf
08-08-2010, 12:24 AM
Was this Yasmani Grandal the best available player on the board at the time of pick #12 ?
In terms of balancing a player's ceiling and likelihood of reaching it, Grandal was the best available player by most people's standards. He's not expected to be an elite player, but the fact that catchers who are above-average on both offense and defense are so scarce is what made him the supposed 'best available player'.

Hoosier Red
08-12-2010, 11:12 AM
It wouldn't break my heart if he doesn't sign. Next year's draft is looking stronger, and this is the best the organization's catching has been in years.

I remember a time when the Reds had all these guys in the minors within a year or two of each other:
Jason LaRue
Corky Miller
Guillermo Garcia
Jayhawk Owens
Justin Towle (such a heart-breaker when he retired)
Brook Fordyce
Paul Bako

I have to think the way Mes has hit since the draft has all but eliminated any leverage Grandal has. Sure he can go back to the draft(his leverage this year) but if he does, he'll have no leverage next year and the Reds are deep at his position.

The leverage equation here is very interesting to me. The player has all the leverage after his junior year, except if he decides to go back to school he has no leverage the next year. How does that fact(has leverage now but loses it if he comes back) factor into the decision making process.

redsmetz
08-12-2010, 11:26 AM
It occurs to me, with us playing the Marlins this weekend, it would be a good time to sign Grandal and bring him into town to see his new team and his hometown team.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2010, 12:34 PM
They need to sign him. He's a nice talent at a premium position.

GIDP
08-12-2010, 12:35 PM
They need to sign him. He's a nice talent at a premium position.

Agreed. Signing him is clearly the best case scenario.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2010, 12:46 PM
They need to sign him. He's a nice talent at a premium position.

Agreed.

HokieRed
08-12-2010, 12:55 PM
Need to sign your first round guy every year and make sure he's a major leaguer. One thing this club has done since 2004 and look at the difference.

bucksfan2
08-12-2010, 01:50 PM
Need to sign your first round guy every year and make sure he's a major leaguer. One thing this club has done since 2004 and look at the difference.

Bailey, Bruce, Stubbs, and Leake are the four 1st round picks to make it to the show. Not to slight the impact that they have made, but the difference is more than likely due to a 2nd round pick (Votto, Wood), trades (Rolen, Arroyo, and Massett), and a waiver wire pick up (Phillips).

But yea I agree with you, signing, developing, and getting 1st round picks to the show is very important in any organization, let alone the Reds.

HokieRed
08-12-2010, 03:09 PM
Bailey, Bruce, Stubbs, and Leake are the four 1st round picks to make it to the show. Not to slight the impact that they have made, but the difference is more than likely due to a 2nd round pick (Votto, Wood), trades (Rolen, Arroyo, and Massett), and a waiver wire pick up (Phillips).

But yea I agree with you, signing, developing, and getting 1st round picks to the show is very important in any organization, let alone the Reds.

I didn't say the difference was made exclusively by the drafted first rounders. What this team has done--and it is very different from the history preceding, especially during Jimbo's era--is to make the first round count. In addition to the 1st rounders you mention, I consider Alonso and Mesoraco nearly locks to be major league players (Alonso will likely be one in 3 wks.) Notice too the importance of high second round picks: Votto and Wood, as you mention. And Zach Stewart was the key player in the trade for Rolen--and, incidentally, Phillips was not simply a waiver wire pickup but was acquired then in a trade involving Jeff Stevens. This organization has been turned around gradually and a great deal of it is due to the draft--and to signing of young talent. Thus I stand by what I said earlier except I'll modify it a little. It's critically important to the health of an organization to make good use of the highest rounds of the drafts and to sign those guys every year.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2010, 04:07 PM
It's critically important to the health of an organization to make good use of the highest rounds of the drafts and to sign those guys every year.

Agreed -- in addition, it makes a lot of sense to invest in international talent, too. For many years the organization did zilch on that front.

gedred69
08-12-2010, 11:11 PM
I'm not reading all these psts to see, what is the hold-up? $$? Does he insist on an MLB contract? If he does, it pushes guys who have already shown MLB potential to the edge as far as roster is concerned.

camisadelgolf
08-12-2010, 11:36 PM
I'm not reading all these psts to see, what is the hold-up? $$? Does he insist on an MLB contract? If he does, it pushes guys who have already shown MLB potential to the edge as far as roster is concerned.
I've seen only one report of Grandal wanting a Major League contract. I think it's simply coming down to money. There have been multiple reports that claim he expects to be paid like a top-five draft pick as opposed to a #12 pick.

GIDP
08-12-2010, 11:50 PM
I think a major league contract isnt really worth that much in the grande scheme of things. Its probably the agent wanting something like that as bragging rights when they try to sign other players.

I'm sure if Grandal gets offered enough money hes going to sign regardless of a major league contract or not.

redsfandan
08-13-2010, 01:34 AM
The Reds shouldn't have to give him a major league deal. They have the leverage in the negotiations. Grandal doesn't.

Eric the Red
08-14-2010, 07:52 PM
Via Twitter:

jimcallisBA Lock to sign. @EricWelchOH: Do you have any insight into the Reds/Grandal negotiations? #mlbdraft

Jim's answer is certainly good news for Reds fans.

GIDP
08-14-2010, 09:01 PM
http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/IMG_6794.JPG

Someone else pointed this out in a game thread but it looks like the Reds are taking Bakers suspension and getting the most out of it.

corkedbat
08-14-2010, 09:10 PM
That's grandal? I smell a presser after the game.

GIDP
08-14-2010, 10:01 PM
I'm 100% sure thats Yas. It was also yesterdays game.

_Sir_Charles_
08-14-2010, 10:24 PM
I'm 100% sure thats Yas. It was also yesterdays game.

Cool. I'm glad that SOMEONE is sure it's him. I simply can't tell.

GIDP
08-14-2010, 10:29 PM
ok maybe 100% is over reaching. Im 95% sure its him.

GIDP
08-14-2010, 10:33 PM
http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000xIbtVpqDweE/s/860/GQ20090530-0805.jpg

http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000kZCPKrmF3wc/s/860/GQ20100611-0026.JPG

http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000YOSdR8fI6B0/s/860/GQ20090531-1837.jpg

Its either him or a body double. The ears pretty much confirm it for me.

bshall2105
08-14-2010, 10:34 PM
Who else would it be if it wasn't him?

corkedbat
08-14-2010, 10:36 PM
Who else would it be if it wasn't him?

Winner of the 'Win a date with Dusty' contest? :evil:

lollipopcurve
08-15-2010, 10:23 AM
I'm convinced it's Grandal. Great to see!

indy_dave00
08-15-2010, 12:14 PM
Mark Sheldon has a tweet up Yasmani Grandal has already taken his physical , seems very likely that is indeed him with Dusty.

Joseph
08-15-2010, 12:21 PM
Well all things considered a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Better to sign him than to place a lot of hope on two picks next year.

Him with the college experience it'll be interesting to see how this all plays out with a relatively young Hanigan, a blossoming Mesaraco, and Grandal.

indy_dave00
08-15-2010, 12:25 PM
Ryan Hanigan turns 30 tomorrow , he will never be a full time mlb catcher for more tan a year.

Pony Boy
08-15-2010, 12:34 PM
Very good news if he signs. I hate the idea of deferring the pick until next year. It just feels bush league to me.

aubashbrother
08-15-2010, 01:02 PM
Hopefully Grandal can perform and Meso continues to take strides. Talk about a trade chip down the line

Joseph
08-15-2010, 01:04 PM
Ryan Hanigan turns 30 tomorrow , he will never be a full time mlb catcher for more tan a year.

Good point.

GIDP
08-15-2010, 01:07 PM
It seems like a lock to be signed. The fact he is in town, taking physicals and sitting with the manager tells me they couldnt be closer to a signing.

Its amazing that the Reds beat writers havent really come up with anything other than "he took a physical" heck they didnt even mention he was at the ball park.

Brutus
08-15-2010, 02:33 PM
It seems like a lock to be signed. The fact he is in town, taking physicals and sitting with the manager tells me they couldnt be closer to a signing.

Its amazing that the Reds beat writers havent really come up with anything other than "he took a physical" heck they didnt even mention he was at the ball park.

Yep, taking physicals is usually the very last step to signing

REDSEER
08-16-2010, 11:32 AM
From Fay:


The Reds are confident that they will get top pick Yasmani Grandal signed by the midnight deadline.

My guess is the money has been agreed to, but the sticking point remains whether Grandal gets a Major League contract or not. The Reds gave a big league deal to Yonder Alonso two years ago. The difference between now and then is space on the 40-man roster is much tighter.

Good news. The post also says the Reds are hopeful to sign Cisco as well.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 11:44 AM
How stupid would a player be to not sign if he agrees on the money but doesnt get the major league 40 man roster spot.

"yea we really think its a fair offer but that roster spot is worth so much that we really think your offer now isnt good enough"

PuffyPig
08-16-2010, 11:50 AM
How stupid would a player be to not sign if he agrees on the money but doesnt get the major league 40 man roster spot.

"yea we really think its a fair offer but that roster spot is worth so much that we really think your offer now isnt good enough"


It depends if he's only really willing to accept the bonus money (less than he wanted) as a trade off for the roster spot.

The "major league deal" can be worth millions in the long run.

The "major league deal" is not a perk, it's a substantial component of the overall value of the deal.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 11:52 AM
Major league deals arent worth that much.

PuffyPig
08-16-2010, 12:03 PM
Major league deals arent worth that much.

It might well get you eligible for arbitration a few years earlier, and even FA.

It can be worth millions.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 12:10 PM
It basically does nothing other than get you DFA'd quicker.

JaxRed
08-16-2010, 12:20 PM
Yep, Major League deal only really helps you if you are a bust. Arb and Free Agency are determined by time spent on the active and DL rosters.

But it guarentees you won't be in minors more than 3 years.

MikeS21
08-16-2010, 01:10 PM
So did he get signed in time or not?

EDIT: Never mind. I guess the deadline is not until tonight.

dougdirt
08-16-2010, 01:38 PM
Yep, Major League deal only really helps you if you are a bust. Arb and Free Agency are determined by time spent on the active and DL rosters.

But it guarentees you won't be in minors more than 3 years.
It is actually 4 years if it is signed this late because of the lack of an option being used this season + the extra option with less than 5 years as a pro.

Brutus
08-16-2010, 01:40 PM
Differences between Major League deal and not:

* Guarantees entry into the majors within the next 3 seasons, as he immediately would be placed on the 40-man roster (it could be as many as 9 years, in theory, without being put on the roster); If he sticks, this would actually guarantee him a much higher lifetime earning in the big leagues, given the two scenarios and assuming playing to 'x' age.

* In addition to the signing bonus amount, with a Major League contract, he'll be getting paid $65k while in the minors instead of the going rate for the level he's on (which is usually less than $20k on all stops (except AAA). For A and AA ball, it's around $10-12K.

* As mentioned, getting a Major League deal gets him to arbitration as early as 26 or 27 years old, whereas he otherwise could potentially be 30 (or more) before getting there. That also means possibly going into free agency at his prime age instead of post-prime. This, again, means the possibility of a higher career earnings. Think time value of money.

The downside, of course, is that it forces his development into a pattern that has been historically unkind for prospects. If he's not ready for the majors, it enhances the possibility that the Reds won't ever reach his potential, and if he does finally put it together, it's less likely it will be with them but on a second or third chance.

There are a lot of advantages to a Major League deal--but also disadvantages.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 02:06 PM
I still say its more Agent bragging rights than anything.

If the player is good it doesnt really matter, and if hes bad he probably isnt making much in arbitration if he isnt non tendered before he even reaches it.

PuffyPig
08-16-2010, 02:30 PM
I still say its more Agent bragging rights than anything.

If the player is good it doesnt really matter, and if hes bad he probably isnt making much in arbitration if he isnt non tendered before he even reaches it.


It makes the most difference where the player is acceptable, neither a star nor someone you want to release.

The team sticks him on the major league roster earlier than they would like, with hopes of recouping their investment. But for the player, that major league salary he is pulling down is quite a difference.

Plus, it saves you being sent to the minors simply becuase you are the one with options left.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 02:50 PM
I understand the positives, but most of them only help someone who isnt good enough to cut it at the major league level, and most likely their bonus is the majority of their income anyways.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-16-2010, 03:19 PM
* In addition to the signing bonus amount, with a Major League contract, he'll be getting paid $65k while in the minors instead of the going rate for the level he's on (which is usually less than $20k on all stops (except AAA). For A and AA ball, it's around $10-12K.

Not to derail the thread to much, but I've always wondered:

1. If a player is on the 40-man roster, and they spend the year in AAA (Valaika, Valliquette) or even AA, what do they make? 65K?

2. If/when they are called up, are they just paid a pro-rated of the 1st year/rookie minimum ($400K)?

3. What about a guy like Burton? He's spent the entire year in AAA, but it was due to injury so is he making his full salary $810K, right?

4. When Owings ($440K) and Herrera ($412K) were sent down are they still getting their full base salaries in AAA?

5. Even though he's been in AAA, is Balentien making the full $416K that Cott's lists.

6. If some players get the full salary and some do not, does making the 25-man out of spring training determine that?

7. Did Burton and Bray's service time clock start ticking from opening day or does it only start when they actually pitch on ther 25-man again?

8. Coming into the year, Cott's has Burton at 2 years 165 days service time, Owings (2 and 139), Bray (2 and 91), Volquez (2 and 120), Votto (2 and 27), and Cueto (2 and 0 days). Will all those guys be arb eligible this off-season and am I missing anyone?

9. I think I read somewhere on this board that even though Lehr was in AAA, he was awarded a guaranteed $400K contract. Are there any others in the Reds system (AAA or AA) like this?

10. If they are just "regular" minor leaguers, what are the average salaries for Rookie, A, A+, AA, and AAA.

11. What about DSL and VSL? Do they only start getting paid when they come over?

LoganBuck
08-16-2010, 03:50 PM
Not to derail the thread to much, but I've always wondered:

1. If a player is on the 40-man roster, and they spend the year in AAA (Valaika, Valliquette) or even AA, what do they make? 65K? Yes

2. If/when they are called up, are they just paid a pro-rated of the 1st year/rookie minimum ($400K)? Yes

3. What about a guy like Burton? He's spent the entire year in AAA, but it was due to injury so is he making his full salary $810K, right? Burton was optioned to AAA he makes 65k

4. When Owings ($440K) and Herrera ($412K) were sent down are they still getting their full base salaries in AAA? No, they start making the minor league pay

5. Even though he's been in AAA, is Balentien making the full $416K that Cott's lists. Not sure, Balentien is probably making big bucks by minor league standards though, certainly not 416k

6. If some players get the full salary and some do not, does making the 25-man out of spring training determine that? Not sure what you are asking here

7. Did Burton and Bray's service time clock start ticking from opening day or does it only start when they actually pitch on ther 25-man again? Both were optioned to AAA they were not accruing service time, only using an option, when they got called up they started accruing service time again

8. Coming into the year, Cott's has Burton at 2 years 165 days service time, Owings (2 and 139), Bray (2 and 91), Volquez (2 and 120), Votto (2 and 27), and Cueto (2 and 0 days). Will all those guys be arb eligible this off-season and am I missing anyone? Most likely yes

9. I think I read somewhere on this board that even though Lehr was in AAA, he was awarded a guaranteed $400K contract. Are there any others in the Reds system (AAA or AA) like this? My guess is that Balentien would be the only one

10. If they are just "regular" minor leaguers, what are the average salaries for Rookie, A, A+, AA, and AAA. Not sure about the actual numbers but the salaries are shockingly low for Rookie and A ball guys.

11. What about DSL and VSL? Do they only start getting paid when they come over?
Many of these guys get signing bonuses, and then live in "baseball academies", I am sure the pay is quite low

GIDP
08-16-2010, 03:53 PM
I dont know if these 2 are connected but Mes was promoted to AAA. Could it be possible that Yas goes straight to AA to finish out the season?

lollipopcurve
08-16-2010, 03:59 PM
Could it be possible that Yas goes straight to AA to finish out the season?

Possible -- very challenging, but if they want him to go to the AFL this fall, getting a look at AA now would probably help him.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 04:02 PM
Possible -- very challenging, but if they want him to go to the AFL this fall, getting a look at AA now would probably help him.

I personally would be surprised if they put him there.

I expect him to be in Arizona tonight and tomorrow be at their spring training park working to get back up to game speed for a week or so then being shipped somewhere like Dayton or Lynchburg to finish out the year.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-16-2010, 04:39 PM
Thanks, LoganBuck.

Brutus
08-16-2010, 05:00 PM
LoganBuck answered your questions quite nicely, but I'll gladly add to his answers...



Not to derail the thread to much, but I've always wondered:

1. If a player is on the 40-man roster, and they spend the year in AAA (Valaika, Valliquette) or even AA, what do they make? 65K?

Yes. Pay is based on the major league seasons from the first scheduled game for a team to the last regularly scheduled game. If a player spends a full season in the minors, he makes $30,000 his first year on the 40-man roster, and $65,000 for every subsequent season or after he's earned one day in the big leagues.

2. If/when they are called up, are they just paid a pro-rated of the 1st year/rookie minimum ($400K)?

As mentioned, for every day that a player is active on the 25-man roster, he makes the pro-rated portion of league minimum (or whatever his contract calls for). So if there are 183 days in the season (which is standard), a player would make $400,000/183 or $2,185.79 for each day spent on the active roster.

3. What about a guy like Burton? He's spent the entire year in AAA, but it was due to injury so is he making his full salary $810K, right?

Players only get paid their full salaries if they are active, on the major league disabled, bereavement or temporary list, or simply have a split contract that guarantees their rate of pay. Further, players with 5 seasons of MLB service can earn their entire rate of pay if accepting an outright assignment prior to becoming a free agent at the end of the year.

4. When Owings ($440K) and Herrera ($412K) were sent down are they still getting their full base salaries in AAA?

They're making the veteran minimum for 40-man protection.

5. Even though he's been in AAA, is Balentien making the full $416K that Cott's lists.

As mentioned with split contracts, some Major League contracts have special covenants that provide for the rate of pay in the majors, but an elevated rate of pay in the minors. A few players, similar to this, are guaranteed the same rate of pay if they're sent to the minors. Many players will make $100-150K in the minors if they sign split contracts with several years of service, because the clubs reward them for being flexible.

6. If some players get the full salary and some do not, does making the 25-man out of spring training determine that?

Making the 25-man roster does not impact anyone's pay. With Balentien, it impacted it only from the standpoint he was out of options, so the Reds either had to keep him active or give him an outright assignment (to which he would first have to pass through waivers).

7. Did Burton and Bray's service time clock start ticking from opening day or does it only start when they actually pitch on ther 25-man again?

Every day up to 172 days each season that a player is either on the 15-day, 60-day DL or active roster accrues service.

8. Coming into the year, Cott's has Burton at 2 years 165 days service time, Owings (2 and 139), Bray (2 and 91), Volquez (2 and 120), Votto (2 and 27), and Cueto (2 and 0 days). Will all those guys be arb eligible this off-season and am I missing anyone?

As with most answers, Logan answered this, but also you can take into account some players will have Super 2 status (which usually is around 2 years and 110 days). This means players with 1 year and 110 days of current service who will be spending all year on the Reds' active roster would also likely wind up in arbitration. I'm not even sure there are any players that meet this criteria (I know that I haven't specifically looked), but that would be possible. Also keep in mind the "110 days" is just a general standard... it changes according to the top 17 percent of players with over 2 and less than 3 years of service each season.

9. I think I read somewhere on this board that even though Lehr was in AAA, he was awarded a guaranteed $400K contract. Are there any others in the Reds system (AAA or AA) like this?

10. If they are just "regular" minor leaguers, what are the average salaries for Rookie, A, A+, AA, and AAA.

Average minor league rates are around $6,000 for rookie, $8,000 for low-A, $10,000 to $12,000 for high-A, $12-15K for AA and $20-25K for AAA. Also, minor league players get a per diem when on the road (it's less than $30 though).

11. What about DSL and VSL? Do they only start getting paid when they come over?

Rookie players do get paid. Obviously in the case of draft picks and international signings, most of their income is from the signing bonus.


I think Logan covered most everything, but hopefully this covered the remaining bases.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-16-2010, 06:08 PM
LoganBuck answered your questions quite nicely, but I'll gladly add to his answers...




I think Logan covered most everything, but hopefully this covered the remaining bases.

Great stuff. That's why I love this board.

By the way, Bruce was at 1.125 (1 year, 125 days) service time coming into the year.

Here's a few more for reference....

Arb eligible in 2011:

Burton: 2.165
Owings: 2.139
Volquez: 2.120
Bray: 2.091
Votto: 2.027
Cueto: 2.000


Arb eligible in 2012 and beyond:

Bruce: 1.125 (will be 2.125 after this year)
Hanigan: 1.077 (will be 2.077)
Janish: 1.064 (will be 2.064)
Herrera: 1.028 (will probably still be under 2.00, due to demotion)
Bailey: 1.017 (will be 2.017, as I assume he accrued svc time on D.L.)
Balentien: 1.131
Arredondo: 1.094
Fisher: 0.130
Stubbs: 0.047
Maloney: 0.045
Castillo: 0.028
Francisco: 0.021
Alonso 0.018 (why does he have service time?)

Had zero, but accrued time in 2010:

Mike Leake: 0.00
Logan Ondrusek: 0.00
Chris Heisey: 0.00
Jordan Smith: 0.00
Travis Wood: 0.00
Sam LeCure: 0.00
Enerio Del Rosario: 0.00

Zero time, and still no ML time:

Chapman: 0.00
Valaika: 0.00
Valliquette: 0.00

redsfandan
08-16-2010, 06:30 PM
* In addition to the signing bonus amount, with a Major League contract, he'll be getting paid $65k while in the minors instead of the going rate for the level he's on (which is usually less than $20k on all stops (except AAA). For A and AA ball, it's around $10-12K.


It makes the most difference where the player is acceptable, neither a star nor someone you want to release.

The team sticks him on the major league roster earlier than they would like, with hopes of recouping their investment. But for the player, that major league salary he is pulling down is quite a difference.
Plus, it saves you being sent to the minors simply becuase you are the one with options left.
I think that's mostly an ego/pride thing. Thanks to the bonus he'll get I don't think Grandal will be hurting.

I still say that the Reds should hold onto that roster spot. They've got the leverage. Grandal doesn't.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 06:33 PM
I think the Reds only gave Yonder one because they thought his bat was advanced enough. I have a hard time with this current group of people in charge willing to give that type of deal to a catcher unless he interviews amazingly.

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 06:43 PM
Do free agents (post-arb guys) have clauses in their contracts that guarantee their salary regardless of whether or not they get optioned down (assuming the player has options)?

Brutus
08-16-2010, 06:44 PM
Great stuff. That's why I love this board.

By the way, Bruce was at 1.125 (1 year, 125 days) service time coming into the year.

Here's a few more for reference....

Arb eligible in 2011:

Burton: 2.165
Owings: 2.139
Volquez: 2.120
Bray: 2.091
Votto: 2.027
Cueto: 2.000


Arb eligible in 2012 and beyond:

Bruce: 1.125 (will be 2.125 after this year)
Hanigan: 1.077 (will be 2.077)
Janish: 1.064 (will be 2.064)
Herrera: 1.028 (will probably still be under 2.00, due to demotion)
Bailey: 1.017 (will be 2.017, as I assume he accrued svc time on D.L.)
Balentien: 1.131
Arredondo: 1.094
Fisher: 0.130
Stubbs: 0.047
Maloney: 0.045
Castillo: 0.028
Francisco: 0.021
Alonso 0.018 (why does he have service time?)

Had zero, but accrued time in 2010:

Mike Leake: 0.00
Logan Ondrusek: 0.00
Chris Heisey: 0.00
Jordan Smith: 0.00
Travis Wood: 0.00
Sam LeCure: 0.00
Enerio Del Rosario: 0.00

Zero time, and still no ML time:

Chapman: 0.00
Valaika: 0.00
Valliquette: 0.00

I haven't seen the estimated cut-off yet, but I do believe Jay Bruce is in line to be a Super-2 player for Arbitration this offseason. I forgot about him not being in your original list, but I know I've been banking on him being Arb-eligible this year. So he's a perfect example of that. He *could* miss it by a few days, but I believe he'll be eligible this offseason.

Brutus
08-16-2010, 06:45 PM
Do free agents (post-arb guys) have clauses in their contracts that guarantee their salary regardless of whether or not they get optioned down (assuming the player has options)?

Some do, but most in those situations have split contracts. It's not at all uncommon to see guys earning half of their major league pay. It's becoming more common for teams to do this, but it's still the exception.

EDIT: Actually, in the case of post-arbitration guys, the MLB CBA guarantees that guys with 5+ years of service have protection of their salary--meaning they would earn the money in their contract no matter what.

redsfandan
08-16-2010, 07:01 PM
I wonder if they could somehow make a promise that he'd be added to the 40 man roster after '11. I'd consider that. Less risk for the Reds but more importantly it would give plenty of time to open up some spots. But now? Noway.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 07:03 PM
I wonder if they could somehow make a promise that he'd be added to the 40 man roster after '11. I'd consider that. Less risk for the Reds but more importantly it would give plenty of time to open up some spots. But now? Noway.

I thought about that also. I'm guessing MLB wouldnt let that be included into a contract, but I dont see why they couldnt use the honor system if they really wanted to.

Joseph
08-16-2010, 07:07 PM
I thought about that also. I'm guessing MLB wouldnt let that be included into a contract, but I dont see why they couldnt use the honor system if they really wanted to.

Guys get it put in their contracts all the time that they have to be called up by May 1st or whatever, I don't see why MLB would deny the caveat that the Reds have to add him by a certain date if both parties agreed.

nemesis
08-16-2010, 07:10 PM
Just talked to my "friend"...

Deal is done. He is probably going to Arizona for a week then Carolina or Lynchburg.

Thinks part of the deal is a 40 man spot by the end of next year.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 07:11 PM
Guys get it put in their contracts all the time that they have to be called up by May 1st or whatever, I don't see why MLB would deny the caveat that the Reds have to add him by a certain date if both parties agreed.

Those guys sign as free agents though not exactly the same thing. I would guess if MLB allowed it to happen it would happen more often, and I cant think of a single time its happened.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 07:12 PM
Just talked to my "friend"...

Deal is done. He is probably going to Arizona for a week then Carolina or Lynchburg.

Thinks part of the deal is a 40 man spot by the end of next year.

Now that I think about it it is possible that they could say "if not on the 40 man roster by such date he receives X amount of money as a bonus"

I doubt they could say "x amount or released" but I could see it being a bonus amount of money.

Brutus
08-16-2010, 07:33 PM
Those guys sign as free agents though not exactly the same thing. I would guess if MLB allowed it to happen it would happen more often, and I cant think of a single time its happened.

Technically, GIDP is right. They wouldn't be able to make that kind of covenant. Here's why:

If you sign a Major League contract, you can sign for multiple years. You could stipulate such a covenant at the end of the Uniform Player Contract... however, since you're giving him a Major League Contract, this is a moot point.

When you don't sign a Major League contract, however, you're technically only signing a 1-year deal. You're signing a minor league contract that the club can renew from year to year. You can't really specify a covenant for a year that isn't covered by the contract itself.

So there are probably two things they could do: specify that he be added by a certain date this year (i.e. September 30), which would mean they have to release someone the last day of the regular season (ish), or they could simply make an oral promise to add him in November when the clubs submit their protection lists for next season.

Danny Serafini
08-16-2010, 08:43 PM
According to this it's $2.99 million and a Major League deal:

http://minors.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/reds_getting_grandal_done.html

nemesis
08-16-2010, 08:45 PM
According to this it's $2.99 million and a Major League deal:

http://minors.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/reds_getting_grandal_done.html

Bye Bye DRH...

GIDP
08-16-2010, 08:47 PM
There is an open 40 man spot already I think, but honestly I'm really surprised they gave him a 40 man spot.

Gallen5862
08-16-2010, 08:51 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds To Sign Yasmani Grandal
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [August 16 at 7:40pm CST]
The Reds will sign first-round catcher Yasmani Grandal to a major league deal worth $2.99MM, according to MLB.com's Jonathan Mayo. The University of Miami product becomes the first 2010 draftee to sign a major league deal and will receive a 40-man roster spot.

nemesis
08-16-2010, 08:56 PM
There is an open 40 man spot already I think, but honestly I'm really surprised they gave him a 40 man spot.

So who goes for Harang? Or is it Harang himself?

GIDP
08-16-2010, 08:57 PM
So who goes for Harang? Or is it Harang himself?

Hes on the 40 man and only on the 15 day DL. The Reds would just have to option someone.

kbrake
08-16-2010, 08:58 PM
If DRH goes now who goes to make room for Izzy?

GIDP
08-16-2010, 08:58 PM
Izzy just went on the DL with elbow problems.

kbrake
08-16-2010, 09:00 PM
I missed that. Thanks GIDP.

Kc61
08-16-2010, 09:00 PM
Didn't the Reds open a 40-man spot when they let Drew Sutton go?

757690
08-16-2010, 09:00 PM
I'm thinking Springer goes, if that's possible with him on the DL.

And these reports of him getting a major league deal are snippets, not full reports. They are not gospel. We could find out later that he gets a major league deal that starts in November, as stated earlier.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:01 PM
I just counted it and there is no open spots. Sorry about that.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:02 PM
Didn't the Reds open a 40-man spot when they let Drew Sutton go?

It was used to either take Volquez off the 60 day DL or put springer on.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:05 PM
there is also another issue where you know that the Reds want Corky up for September. Thats going to cause problems. I guess they probably just pray someone gets hurt lol.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:07 PM
Glad he's signed, I guess, but not happy about him getting a spot on the 40-man. He's never hit one professional baseball pitch, and that sure as hades didn't work out with Sardhina at that position.

Plus, does that move Grandal ahead of Mes? I assume not, but Mes is not on the 40-man, and how many catchers are they going to have on the 40-man at any one time next year?

Maybe it signals Mes is going to be dealt in the off-season.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:19 PM
Maybe it signals Mes is going to be dealt in the off-season.

I do not see any direct correlation between Grandal getting a major league contract and the future of Mesoraco. I think Mes is on the same time table as before (mid to late 2011) and Grandal is likely mid to late 2012. The only thing Grandal getting a major league contract effects is 2014 when he should be a part of the major league roster either way. Let's just hope Grandal doesn't get hurt.

Scrap Irony
08-16-2010, 09:20 PM
Or Mesoraco could be brought up to Cincinnati as a part-time starter (along with Hanigan), as early as next season. (He may not be completely ready, but he would be a cheap and fairly effective catcher.) The Reds could then send away Hernandez and save a few million dollars.

757690
08-16-2010, 09:20 PM
I still think players drafted demanding a MLB contract is dumb.

It is of very little value to the player. He gets a little more money when in the minors, maybe and extra $50-100K, but that's about it.

It usually does not start your Arb or Free Agent clock any faster, since most guys who are given this deal most likely will be in the bigs by their fourth year anyway.

Really all it does is make the team you are signing with weaker, since they have to use a 40 man spot on you, and hurts your development. All for less than an extra $100K. really a dumb move to demand it, if you ask me.

Brutus
08-16-2010, 09:33 PM
I still think players drafted demanding a MLB contract is dumb.

It is of very little value to the player. He gets a little more money when in the minors, maybe and extra $50-100K, but that's about it.

It usually does not start your Arb or Free Agent clock any faster, since most guys who are given this deal most likely will be in the bigs by their fourth year anyway.

Really all it does is make the team you are signing with weaker, since they have to use a 40 man spot on you, and hurts your development. All for less than an extra $100K. really a dumb move to demand it, if you ask me.

You're missing a key aspect. It actually does make a big difference.

It starts your Arb clock sooner because you're using up your options much, much faster.

Normally, the pattern for a first round pick goes something like this:

* 3-4 years in the minors, then added to the 40-man roster
* 3 years of options, going back and forth between majors & minors
* It may actually take 8 years before arbitration and 10-12 years before free agency

By adding a draft pick to the 40-man roster

* You're using up all 3 options in seasons 1, 2 & 3
* By season 4, you have to be kept in the majors. This means you're eligible for arbitration no later than the 6th season
* You're eligible, then, for free agency by the 9th season

As you can see, it's not just how quickly you make the majors but how soon you're using up your option seasons. Yes, it's true many guys would be in the majors by their 4th seasons, but you're forgetting that many players are optioned back to the minors several times during that period. Going this route, players cannot be optioned after three seasons... meaning once they're in the majors, they're there to stay if they're not being overwhelmed.

IslandRed
08-16-2010, 09:38 PM
Mostly, from the player's perspective, the major-league deal is insurance against being buried in the minor leagues for a few extra years because you're blocked at the position, even if you're ready to play in the show. I suspect Yonder Alonso is going to be very, very happy he has one.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:44 PM
What I am puzzled over is spots on the 40-man for catchers. Grandal taking one up ahead of Mes bothers me. Next year, probably Ramon/Hanigan/Miller/Grandal...just not a lot of room at the inn for Mes in the short term.

ETA: My point on Mes being dealt isn't that I think Grandal is better, or that there is not room for both, but more about Grandal joining an already crowded 40-man ahead of Mes.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:46 PM
What I am puzzled over is spots on the 40-man for catchers. Grandal taking one up ahead of Mes bothers me. Next year, probably Ramon/Hanigan/Miller/Grandal...just not a lot of room at the inn for Mes in the short term.

Why does Corky need a spot on the 40 man? He is not currently on the 40 man and will not likely need to be protected next year.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:47 PM
Sorry, Edd, forgot Corky was back off the 40-man.

That said, I still hate signing guys to major league contracts from the draft. Just not a fan of tying up roster spots on what are, in essence, projects. PARTICULARLY when it comes to catchers.

Again, it may just be my memories of how well the Sardhina and whatever that SS whose name I have forgotten contracts worked out...

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:51 PM
Sorry, Edd, forgot Corky was back off the 40-man.

That said, I still hate signing guys to major league contracts from the draft. Just not a fan of tying up roster spots on what are, in essence, projects. PARTICULARLY when it comes to catchers.

Again, it may just be my memories of how well the Sardhina and whatever that SS whose name I have forgotten contracts worked out...

Agreed on hating wasting a spot on the 40 man roster, but if I remember correctly Sardinha was a high school catcher and Grandal should not be that much of a project. I just don't think this affects Grandal's window barring a major injury.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-16-2010, 09:51 PM
What a breath of fresh air this organization has become.


Paying over slot for top HS kids (Waldrop, Cisco). Not taking the cheap route after going over slot and and still signing the biggie (Grandal). Making the Chapman signing happen.....and Perez. Their Latin American pipeline is well lubed with redonkulous talent.

I never thought I'd ever say it again, but the Reds are a first-rate organization.

We're back.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:52 PM
Espinoza, the SS was Espinoza. It just came to me.

The "next A-Rod".

Or not.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:52 PM
Corky is going to be up in September though so he will need one this year. Unless they bring up Grandal to give Ramon and Ryan off time which seems completely improbable.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:54 PM
Corky is going to be up in September though so he will need one this year. Unless they bring up Grandal to give Ramon and Ryan off time which seems completely improbable.

Why does Corky need to be up? I think both of our catchers are pretty rested right now and if we just need a late defensive replacement down the stretch to allow Hernandez/Hanigan to pinch hit, I am sure Grandal is up for it. I am fine with seeing Grandal get a cup of coffee in September as a defensive replacement once the minor league teams are done.

IslandRed
08-16-2010, 09:54 PM
What I am puzzled over is spots on the 40-man for catchers. Grandal taking one up ahead of Mes bothers me. Next year, probably Ramon/Hanigan/Miller/Grandal...just not a lot of room at the inn for Mes in the short term.

There's no reason to put Mesoraco on the 40 until he has to be. Which may be this winter, I'm not sure if he'll have to be protected for Rule V, I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up.

But with Mes moving fast, then barring a major regression, I don't see the Reds keeping more than four, and four is not unusual. Just like this year, the Corky Millers of the world won't be taking up space on the 40 unless they have to be in Cincinnati.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-16-2010, 09:54 PM
What I am puzzled over is spots on the 40-man for catchers. Grandal taking one up ahead of Mes bothers me. Next year, probably Ramon/Hanigan/Miller/Grandal...just not a lot of room at the inn for Mes in the short term.


Ramon probably needs to go.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:55 PM
Agreed on hating wasting a spot on the 40 man roster, but if I remember correctly Sardinha was a high school catcher and Grandal should not be that much of a project. I just don't think this affects Grandal's window barring a major injury.

My irritation isn't over his window being affected, it's him taking up a valuable 40-man spot years before he will be useful.

Forgive me, but were not his scouting reports replete with questions over how quickly he would transition to wooden bats and other assorted concerns? He's a nice prospect, but I didn't read those reports as saying he was a sure thing. He's not in the Mauer/Wieters class of catcher prospect anyway, was my impression.

And as deep as this organization is in really fine talent major league ready at AAA that is not on the 40-man, I loathe tying up a spot on a guy who, best case, is 2-3 years away.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:55 PM
There's no reason to put Mesoraco on the 40 until he has to be. Which may be this winter, I'm not sure if he'll have to be protected for Rule V, I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up.

But with Mes moving fast, then barring a major regression, I don't see the Reds keeping more than four, and four is not unusual. Just like this year, the Corky Millers of the world won't be taking up space on the 40 unless they have to be in Cincinnati.

Looking at camisadelgolf's Rule V thread, it does appear that Mesoraco will need to be protected and therefore, the Reds will now have to protect 4 catchers.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:56 PM
Why does Corky need to be up? I think both of our catchers are pretty rested right now and if we just need a late defensive replacement down the stretch to allow Hernandez/Hanigan to pinch hit, I am sure Grandal is up for it. I am fine with seeing Grandal get a cup of coffee in September as a defensive replacement once the minor league teams are done.

Its always been the plan from what I have read. They want to give Ramon and Ryan extra days in September. I guess its not a must but they have always brought up a 3rd catcher for September.

I think they just dont use the 3rd catcher and let those 2 kill each other and hope they arent burnt for the playoffs. Its not like they are both playing a ton for the average starting catcher.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Looking at camisadelgolf's Rule V thread, it does appear that Mesoraco will need to be protected and therefore, the Reds will now have to protect 4 catchers.

I'm thinking Mes might be on the major league team next year and one of the 2 on the team right now wont be.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Its always been the plan from what I have read. They want to give Ramon and Ryan extra days in September. I guess its not a must but they have always brought up a 3rd catcher for September.

I think they just dont use the 3rd catcher and let those 2 kill each other and hope they arent burnt for the playoffs. Its not like they are both playing a ton for the average starting catcher.

Honest off-the-wall question right now, how much better prepared is Corky to hit and catch in the major leagues than Grandal?

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:58 PM
Ramon probably needs to go.

Dunno, but I doubt the Reds see it that way.

Hernandez/Hanigan/Mes/Grandal.

That's a sizeable chunk of real estate on the 40-man tied up in the catcher spot now, with Grandal being a long-term hope. I just don't care for that approach.

Hope he is a player, regardless.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 09:58 PM
Honest off-the-wall question right now, how much better prepared is Corky to hit and catch in the major leagues than Grandal?

I think it was more catching than the hitting thing. Corky might be ahead of him in both but only because Grandal would be getting tossed to the wolves.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 09:58 PM
I'm thinking Mes might be on the major league team next year and one of the 2 on the team right now wont be.

Really? I think Hernandez has a good role on this team right now and there is no reason to get rid of Hanny when he is cheap right now. I would hate to push Mes while he's not ready just to keep DRH or Micah.

fearofpopvol1
08-16-2010, 09:59 PM
I would be shocked if the player removed from the 40-man was NOT a pitcher.

membengal
08-16-2010, 09:59 PM
Honest off-the-wall question right now, how much better prepared is Corky to hit and catch in the major leagues than Grandal?

a LOT. Particularly defensively. Like, millions of years ahead.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Really? I think Hernandez has a good role on this team right now and there is no reason to get rid of Hanny when he is cheap right now. I would hate to push Mes while he's not ready just to keep DRH or Micah.

4 catchers on the 40 man roster seems like a lot. someone probably isnt going to be around.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 10:00 PM
I think it was more catching than the hitting thing. Corky might be ahead of him in both but only because Grandal would be getting tossed to the wolves.

By the end of the minor league playoffs, could Grandal be an adequate enough defender to be a 3rd catcher to allow for Hanny or Hernandez to pinch hit?

PuffyPig
08-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Its always been the plan from what I have read. They want to give Ramon and Ryan extra days in September. I guess its not a must but they have always brought up a 3rd catcher for September.

I think they just dont use the 3rd catcher and let those 2 kill each other and hope they arent burnt for the playoffs. Its not like they are both playing a ton for the average starting catcher.

I don't think it will kill any of the Reds two catchers to play half time.

The advantage of having Corky is you can pinch hit with one of the other catchers and not worry about an injury leaving you a catcher short.

I assume Grandal could be that protection.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 10:01 PM
I would be shocked if the player removed from the 40-man was NOT a pitcher.

Agreed. Im guessing its DRH because hes probably the least likely to be claimed just because hes not viewed as an upside guy and more of a gimmick.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 10:02 PM
By the end of the minor league playoffs, could Grandal be an adequate enough defender to be a 3rd catcher to allow for Hanny or Hernandez to pinch hit?

Well Grandal probably wont see playoffs anyways. I'm guessing they just go with 2 instead of tossing Grandal to the wolves like that.

Edd Roush
08-16-2010, 10:09 PM
Well Grandal probably wont see playoffs anyways. I'm guessing they just go with 2 instead of tossing Grandal to the wolves like that.

Why not just let him sit on the bench and come in for an emergency since he is already on the 40 man roster? If he comes in during an emergency and is completely overmatched he will know what it will take for him to make it to the bigs.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 10:13 PM
Why not just let him sit on the bench and come in for an emergency since he is already on the 40 man roster? If he comes in during an emergency and is completely overmatched he will know what it will take for him to make it to the bigs.

Maybe they do that. Seems unlikely just in my opinion though. Then again they dont exactly have a 3rd option unless an injury happens to one of the FA to be players and they 60 day DL him.

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 10:15 PM
When push comes to shove in 2013, I see Mesoraco behind the plate and Grandal at 3rd Base.

Krawhitham
08-16-2010, 10:23 PM
4 catchers on the 40 man roster seems like a lot. someone probably isnt going to be around.

It is really only 3 because you are not going to call this kid up. If they DFA Miller that would leave no backup catcher if one on the big team got hurt. and since both have spent time on DL this season it would be a dumb move


EDIT

Scratch that according to http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=cin we only have 2 on 40 man roster

RiverRat13
08-16-2010, 10:24 PM
4 catchers on the 40 man roster seems like a lot. someone probably isnt going to be around.

The first two teams I looked up (Boston and Texas) have five and four catchers respectively on their 40 man rosters. So I guess it isn't really out of the ordinary.

GIDP
08-16-2010, 10:30 PM
The first two teams I looked up (Boston and Texas) have five and four catchers respectively on their 40 man rosters. So I guess it isn't really out of the ordinary.

Yea they also have the DH in those leagues though. boston actually has 6 though which is kinda crazy to think. Then again they have had to deal with Martinez and Veritek being injured and basically have to have someone be a designated Wakefield catcher.

OnBaseMachine
08-16-2010, 10:40 PM
Great to see Grandal in the fold. Hopefully he gets assigned to a team sometime soon.

Krawhitham
08-16-2010, 11:12 PM
He will in in Arizona on Tuesday


At home in Miami, Fla., Grandal had to keep his Monday night signing party low-key. His professional career is starting right away.

"Nothing big, just a little get-together with my family so we can celebrate," Grandal said. "It can't be too much because I'm headed to Arizona [on Tuesday]."

RedLegSuperStar
08-16-2010, 11:21 PM
My guess on potential roster spot would be Danny Ray Herrera, Laynce Nix, or 60 Day DLing Springer.

JaxRed
08-16-2010, 11:35 PM
My guess is Harang to 60 Day DL. He still has like 28 days of rehab time available.

OnBaseMachine
08-17-2010, 12:01 AM
The Reds make it official:

Reds, first-round pick C Yasmani Grandal agree to terms on 4-year Major League contract through 2013.

http://twitter.com/CincinnatiReds

GIDP
08-17-2010, 12:07 AM
Should see some type of announcement about what they did to clear a 40 man spot.

mdccclxix
08-17-2010, 12:11 AM
Perhaps Grandal can progress similar to a healthy Alonso, they both had similar stats at Miami. I'm not as worried about his chances to make MLB.

Brutus
08-17-2010, 12:27 AM
Should see some type of announcement about what they did to clear a 40 man spot.

That will come tomorrow, from what I've seen on Twitter.

GIDP
08-17-2010, 12:29 AM
That will come tomorrow, from what I've seen on Twitter.

Interesting that they can agree to terms, release the press release, and not instantly have to make a move. I guess its not finalized until the commissioner signs off on it.

Brutus
08-17-2010, 12:35 AM
Interesting that they can agree to terms, release the press release, and not instantly have to make a move. I guess its not finalized until the commissioner signs off on it.

Yeah there is a window of opportunity to delay the move while it's going through the red tape.

fearofpopvol1
08-17-2010, 01:11 AM
I'm glad they got the deal done, but not only has Grandal received more money than any other pick in the 1st round not named Harper (at least from what has been reported so far), but he gets a MLB deal too?? No other 1st round pick outside of Harper (again that has been reported) got that! I just don't understand why there was a need to cave on paying more than most other picks that went before Grandal AND giving him an MLB deal, hurting roster space, for someone who has not yet proven to be an "elite" talent.

Texas Pete
08-17-2010, 01:26 AM
Glad they got the deal done.

NorrisHopper30
08-17-2010, 02:12 AM
I'm glad they got the deal done, but not only has Grandal received more money than any other pick in the 1st round not named Harper (at least from what has been reported so far), but he gets a MLB deal too?? No other 1st round pick outside of Harper (again that has been reported) got that! I just don't understand why there was a need to cave on paying more than most other picks that went before Grandal AND giving him an MLB deal, hurting roster space, for someone who has not yet proven to be an "elite" talent.

I'm pretty sure Taillon got much more than Grandal.

Brutus
08-17-2010, 02:13 AM
I'm glad they got the deal done, but not only has Grandal received more money than any other pick in the 1st round not named Harper (at least from what has been reported so far), but he gets a MLB deal too?? No other 1st round pick outside of Harper (again that has been reported) got that! I just don't understand why there was a need to cave on paying more than most other picks that went before Grandal AND giving him an MLB deal, hurting roster space, for someone who has not yet proven to be an "elite" talent.

Jameson Taillon and Manny Machado both signed for reportedly $5 million. Zack Lee, No. 28 pick of the Dodgers, signed for $5.25 million.

But here's the more interesting thing:

Pirates' second-rounder Stetson Allie signed for $2.4 million. Tigers' supplemental pick Nick Castellanos signed for $3.45 million.

11larkin11
08-17-2010, 02:22 AM
So how does the 4 year deal work? 2.99 over 4, then arb?

Brutus
08-17-2010, 02:26 AM
So how does the 4 year deal work? 2.99 over 4, then arb?

The $2.99 million could be spread out over 5 years, potentially (I haven't seen the details yet).

But it likely means this:

* Prorated $30K for everyday he's active on a minor league roster this year
* Beginning next year (and 2012 too), he'll make $65,000 in the minors
* When he's on the 25-man roster, he'll make prorated $400,000

At the end of the 4 years, the Reds can offer him a new guaranteed contract or simply "renew" him for league minimum (or what they believe to be a fair amount). If he's arbitration-eligible (which is unlikely), then he would be put up for Arbitration.

fearofpopvol1
08-17-2010, 02:32 AM
Jameson Taillon and Manny Machado both signed for reportedly $5 million. Zack Lee, No. 28 pick of the Dodgers, signed for $5.25 million.

But here's the more interesting thing:

Pirates' second-rounder Stetson Allie signed for $2.4 million. Tigers' supplemental pick Nick Castellanos signed for $3.45 million.

I was just going off of what had been reported earlier. Still, that means the Reds paid Grandal as if he was the 5th best player in the draft, at least so far.

And the number of picks that received an MLB contract as well was very small...probably less than 5 players total.

OnBaseMachine
08-17-2010, 02:40 AM
From John Fay:


Grandal will report to Goodyear in the next couple of days.

“He’ll spend a short time at Goodyear then move onto Billings,” Jocketty said, “then to Instructional League. We think he’ll move fast.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/17/reds-reluctantly-gave-grandal-a-big-league-deal/

757690
08-17-2010, 02:56 AM
You're missing a key aspect. It actually does make a big difference.

It starts your Arb clock sooner because you're using up your options much, much faster.

Normally, the pattern for a first round pick goes something like this:

* 3-4 years in the minors, then added to the 40-man roster
* 3 years of options, going back and forth between majors & minors
* It may actually take 8 years before arbitration and 10-12 years before free agency

By adding a draft pick to the 40-man roster

* You're using up all 3 options in seasons 1, 2 & 3
* By season 4, you have to be kept in the majors. This means you're eligible for arbitration no later than the 6th season
* You're eligible, then, for free agency by the 9th season

As you can see, it's not just how quickly you make the majors but how soon you're using up your option seasons. Yes, it's true many guys would be in the majors by their 4th seasons, but you're forgetting that many players are optioned back to the minors several times during that period. Going this route, players cannot be optioned after three seasons... meaning once they're in the majors, they're there to stay if they're not being overwhelmed.

Technically, they can be optioned after season 4 in the minors (they get an extra option if signed late, after it is impossible for them to use their first option in their first year), but my point is that they usually are not.

From 2000-2005, 32 college players (I can't imagine a team giving a MLB deal to a HS, besides Harper, and even that one was crazy imo) were taken in the first round in picks 1-12 (Grandel was the 12 pick.) Only two who eventually had a major league career in which going to arbitration meant making real money, spent any time in the minors. Joe Saunders, who missed his second year with a shoulder injury, and Jeff Neimann. Saunders spent an half a season, and Neimann a full season in the minors past what would have been their last option year had they signed a MLB deal out of the draft.

I imagine Saunders is glad he didn't sign a MLB deal out of the draft, since it gave him more time to come back from an injury. I'll still count him anyway.

That is one in sixteen. A 6% chance.

That's my point. Odds are it's not going to matter, but it definitely will make things more difficult for the team you sign with, and possibly make them a weaker team, and likely hurt your development as a prospect.

It's a dumb move.

757690
08-17-2010, 03:02 AM
I was just going off of what had been reported earlier. Still, that means the Reds paid Grandal as if he was the 5th best player in the draft, at least so far.

And the number of picks that received an MLB contract as well was very small...probably less than 5 players total.

Grandel reportedly almost was the 4th pick or the 5th pick but he and Royals then Indians couldn't agree on a contract before hand. He was asking for much more than $2.99M then. So it's likely he accepted less than he wanted, but got the MLB deal in return.

Unless we get inside information on how the negotiation went, we really don't know what it would have taken to get him to sign. But he clearly was considered by scouts to be a top 5 talent. He dropped to the Reds due to his contract demands.

membengal
08-17-2010, 06:58 AM
Technically, they can be optioned after season 4 in the minors (they get an extra option if signed late, after it is impossible for them to use their first option in their first year), but my point is that they usually are not.

From 2000-2005, 32 college players (I can't imagine a team giving a MLB deal to a HS, besides Harper, and even that one was crazy imo) were taken in the first round in picks 1-12 (Grandel was the 12 pick.) Only two who eventually had a major league career in which going to arbitration meant making real money, spent any time in the minors. Joe Saunders, who missed his second year with a shoulder injury, and Jeff Neimann. Saunders spent an half a season, and Neimann a full season in the minors past what would have been their last option year had they signed a MLB deal out of the draft.

I imagine Saunders is glad he didn't sign a MLB deal out of the draft, since it gave him more time to come back from an injury. I'll still count him anyway.

That is one in sixteen. A 6% chance.

That's my point. Odds are it's not going to matter, but it definitely will make things more difficult for the team you sign with, and possibly make them a weaker team, and likely hurt your development as a prospect.

It's a dumb move.

Your views are of interest to me and I would be interested to know if you have a newsletter I can subscribe to.

Well stated. About where I come down.

lollipopcurve
08-17-2010, 08:46 AM
I like that they're putting Grandal on a team (Billings) with a shot at postseason play. The single A teams are not in a winning environment right now. I think it's a good idea to introduce your big-ticket draft choice to pro ball by having him on with a club that's playing for a trophy.

GIDP
08-17-2010, 08:49 AM
what if his thumbs get hurt :)

Pony Boy
08-17-2010, 09:43 AM
I would be interested to hear someone with more knowledge than me of Grandal compare his hitting to Alonso coming out of Miami. If you took the fact that Grandal is a catcher out of the analyis who is drafted higher? Like, for example, if they were both first baseman would Alonso or Grandal be considered the better prospect?

mdccclxix
08-17-2010, 10:04 AM
Yonder had more walks and more HR power than Grandal at Miami, but their slash lines are very similar their junior years. For instance, they both slugged over .700, both walked a lot more than they struck out, both were on base over half the time.

IIRC, their batting stances and swings are pretty similar, too.

Pony Boy
08-17-2010, 10:32 AM
Yonder had more walks and more HR power than Grandal at Miami, but their slash lines are very similar their junior years. For instance, they both slugged over .700, both walked a lot more than they struck out, both were on base over half the time.

IIRC, their batting stances and swings are pretty similar, too.

Thanks, It sounds like Alonso at the same age/level was a tick better as a hitter.

I can't find any stats that show Grandal's lefty/righty splits. I am wondering if he will stick as a switch hitter.

DBFROMNVA
08-17-2010, 11:16 AM
Their agent must love Jocketty. He has watched him fold like a tent and give out ML contracts twice in the last three years. It will limit flexibility if injuries hit over the next year and a half. Grandal was not going back to college with the loaded draft next year. Call his bluff.