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View Full Version : Bochy schooled Baker tonight......



Vottomatic
06-07-2010, 11:21 PM
Bochy makes defensive adjustments in the 9th that probably saved the game for them. If Burrell is still in the game, he doesn't make that catch and Hernandez ends up at 2nd. Then we probably bunt him over and look for the sac fly after that.

Baker would have left Gomes in LF instead of putting in Heisey.

Did you hear Thom emphasize it? Almost like he was taking a jab at Dusty.

kfm
06-07-2010, 11:28 PM
Bochy makes defensive adjustments in the 9th that probably saved the game for them. If Burrell is still in the game, he doesn't make that catch and Hernandez ends up at 2nd. Then we probably bunt him over and look for the sac fly after that.

Baker would have left Gomes in LF instead of putting in Heisey.

Did you hear Thom emphasize it? Almost like he was taking a jab at Dusty.

Baker replaces Gomes with Hieisy late in the game in that exact situation regularly. Before Heisy came up it was Nix who replaced Gomes late in the game. My only issue with Baker tonight is his decision to bring in Herrera in the seventh. This move only makes sense if Masset was unavailable. Having said that, this bullpen stinks other than Rhodes.

Vottomatic
06-07-2010, 11:33 PM
Baker rarely makes defensive substitutions in the 9th inning. Who are you kidding?

Last time I saw Janish he had rust on him.

kfm
06-07-2010, 11:40 PM
Baker rarely makes defensive substitutions in the 9th inning. Who are you kidding?

Last time I saw Janish he had rust on him.

So you have switched your argument from an OF replacement to using Janish. If that is your new point, I would agree with it but you must not watch enough games if you don't know he regularly replaces Gomes in the ninth when the reds are ahead just like Bochy did tonight.

kfm
06-08-2010, 12:00 AM
Bochy makes defensive adjustments in the 9th that probably saved the game for them. If Burrell is still in the game, he doesn't make that catch and Hernandez ends up at 2nd. Then we probably bunt him over and look for the sac fly after that.

Baker would have left Gomes in LF instead of putting in Heisey.

Did you hear Thom emphasize it? Almost like he was taking a jab at Dusty.

Just to bring some facts into this. Last week Heisey replaced Gomes in the ninth inning in a one run win over the cardinals and actually if you remember correctly caught the final out of the game on a diving catch. He also replaced Gomes in the ninth of their win over the nationals on saturday. So for something that never happens, that is both games they won on the road trip when Gomes was in the field. Their other win on the road, as I am sure you are aware Nix was in leftfied so here was no need to replace Gomes late.

nemesis
06-08-2010, 01:08 AM
He does occasionally do it, but there has been a few games he hasn't. He just isn't consistent with those moves... Thom and Welsh have been very very critical of alot of the things going on the field this year more so than any year I can remember. Guess George kept the monkeys in the cage...

kfm
06-08-2010, 01:18 AM
He does occasionally do it, but there has been a few games he hasn't. He just isn't consistent with those moves... Thom and Welsh have been very very critical of alot of the things going on the field this year more so than any year I can remember. Guess George kept the monkeys in the cage...

When you say he is not consistent I have to assume you are talking about Janish. I will check boxscores later, but when they are protecting a lead, unless it is a blowout, he consistently replaces Gomes in the 9th with Heisey and before Heisey it was Nix and Dickerson. As I pointed out in my previous post, he did it during both opportunities he had to do it last week. It is not like it just started either, I am sure you remember Heisey's relay throw during the civil rights game that resulted in the final out of the game. I would love to see him do it with Janish for OCab, but I think by now it is pretty obvious that he is not going to do it.

texasdave
06-08-2010, 01:39 AM
OCab is now down to a .655 OPS overall with an OPS of about .500 in June. He plays short with zero range. And still Janish hasn't played in the month of June. Not one plate appearance, not one pinch-running appearance and not one defensive substitution appearance. Now that, my friends, is some fine managing. Any day now I expect to hear Johnnie B. Baker complain that OCab is wearing down and Johnnie B. Baker has to find a way to get him some rest. Our manager is lousy.

Vottomatic
06-08-2010, 08:36 AM
Dusty is too much of a player's manager to do the right thing for the team at times. It's like he doesn't want to insult certain guys.

Why can't he just have a talk with OCab and tell him he wants to get Janish some work in, and that he's going to stick Janish in the late part of games? Perfect chance to give Janish atleast some work.

tbball10
06-08-2010, 09:02 AM
Bochy didn't school Baker. The bullpen just proved ineffective.... yet again. Sometimes the players have to go win it and the offense can't pull a miracle every game. If we don't get some help in the pen soon, these types of games could start getting away from us quite regularly.

ian_madden
06-08-2010, 11:46 AM
1. Dusty does put Heisey in for defensive substitutions quite often i might add.
2. The pitching lost the game last night, not Dusty.
3. You are all blinded by your hatred of Dusty to see that he is doing a better than average job. We are still 8 games over .500.
4. This message board is a lot happier when we lose than win.

brm7675
06-08-2010, 11:51 AM
Why wasn't Rhodes used earlier when we had the lead? Why waste him when you are down in the 8th? Simple answer is that Dusty doesn't understand how to manage, let alone how to manage a bullpen. It's sad when you have the horses but the jockey is blind.:cool:


Bochy didn't school Baker. The bullpen just proved ineffective.... yet again. Sometimes the players have to go win it and the offense can't pull a miracle every game. If we don't get some help in the pen soon, these types of games could start getting away from us quite regularly.

brm7675
06-08-2010, 11:53 AM
1. Dusty does put Heisey in for defensive substitutions quite often i might add.

He doens't do it enough and doesn't do it the key times or positions.

2. The pitching lost the game last night, not Dusty.

No Dusty's inability to manage the bullpen lost the game.

3. You are all blinded by your hatred of Dusty to see that he is doing a better than average job. We are still 8 games over .500.

This team should be and could be 12-15 games over .500 with good leadership.

4. This message board is a lot happier when we lose than win.

No this message board and fans are happy when we do well.

Vottomatic
06-08-2010, 12:43 PM
Why wasn't Rhodes used earlier when we had the lead? Why waste him when you are down in the 8th? Simple answer is that Dusty doesn't understand how to manage, let alone how to manage a bullpen. It's sad when you have the horses but the jockey is blind.:cool:

Completely agree. Shouldn't your reliever with the lowest e.r.a. and who has been the most effective all season be put in the most critical situation of the game instead of the 80 mph fastball throwing batting tee we know as Herrera?

Why use Herrera in that situation? He was doing the same thing with Lincoln before he went on the DL.

bounty37h
06-08-2010, 12:53 PM
1. Dusty does put Heisey in for defensive substitutions quite often i might add.
2. The pitching lost the game last night, not Dusty.
3. You are all blinded by your hatred of Dusty to see that he is doing a better than average job. We are still 8 games over .500.
4. This message board is a lot happier when we lose than win.

They were commenting at the end of the game that there would be those people out there that will complain and say this is Dustys fault, none on the players, just out of having to have someone to blame.

bounty37h
06-08-2010, 12:55 PM
Why wasn't Rhodes used earlier when we had the lead? Why waste him when you are down in the 8th? Simple answer is that Dusty doesn't understand how to manage, let alone how to manage a bullpen. It's sad when you have the horses but the jockey is blind.:cool:

I think Rhodes has bene overused already this year, think we are wearing that horse down, he is favoring his hip from what I can tell, think there is an injury there.

Vottomatic
06-08-2010, 01:20 PM
They were commenting at the end of the game that there would be those people out there that will complain and say this is Dustys fault, none on the players, just out of having to have someone to blame.

Managing isn't rocket science.

95% of us could manage. When the manager goes to make a move, 95% of us could make the right decision.

When Dusty brought in Herrera, I was scratching my head. And lo and behold, it all blew up in our faces. I was thinking Rhodes for that moment, as were probably most everyone else.

I'm just saying, he does dumb things at the worst possible times.

brm7675
06-08-2010, 01:42 PM
I tottally agree, but he still used him last night, if you are going to use him, use him to hold a lead, why bring him in when you are down?


I think Rhodes has bene overused already this year, think we are wearing that horse down, he is favoring his hip from what I can tell, think there is an injury there.

Krawhitham
06-08-2010, 01:51 PM
Baker rarely makes defensive substitutions in the 9th inning. Who are you kidding?

Last time I saw Janish he had rust on him.

Heisey has been used as a defensive substitution 6 times


You also have to look at it the other way, with the bullpen as bad as it is you want to keep your good hitters in the game because the pen will give up the lead a lot of the time

bounty37h
06-08-2010, 04:05 PM
I tottally agree, but he still used him last night, if you are going to use him, use him to hold a lead, why bring him in when you are down?

Oh, I didnt get it at all either. I am really worried we wont get much more from Rhodes this year, I think he is hurting more then letting on-hoping not of course, as he has been lights out!

FlyerFanatic
06-08-2010, 04:08 PM
I tottally agree, but he still used him last night, if you are going to use him, use him to hold a lead, why bring him in when you are down?

this. i was at the game. when he brought in herrera i figured, well i guess he's really trying to give rhodes a day off and hoping herrera can hold this lead. of course then we lose the lead, he brings him in, i just threw my hands up in the air like what the heck.

winks
06-08-2010, 06:26 PM
The problem with bringin in Herrera is he is the LH specialist. The first 2 batters in the 7th bat RH. That is bad managing. And to compound the problem he brings in GREEN Del Rosario W/ runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out. And he must hate Janish who is probably the best fielder on the team. Not as flashy as Phillips but more solid

kfm
06-08-2010, 07:48 PM
I was not crazy about the use of Herrera last night. Having said that, if he used Rhodes in the 7th who was going to pitch the eighth? Was Masset available last night, it seemed strange that he did not go Rhodes, Masset, Coco. If Masset was not available was he saving Rhodes for the eighth? I know it is easier to just trash Dusty, but before I trash him I would like to know if Masset was available. I would imagine if Masset was not available and Rhodes pitched the seventh and then someone other than Rhodes or Masset pitched the eighth and gave up the lead the question today would be why would you pitch pitcher X in the eighth inning who is either too green or just not very good. I think we are all really missing the point, this bullpen stinks. There is one guy who you can count on to come in and shut down the opposition. The rest of them you have no idea what you are going to get. That is the problem, you guys can argue about the order that guys pitch, but the problem is who is pitching not what order they come into the game. Whether the game got blown by Herrera in the 7th or Masset and his 7 run era or Owings or Lincoln or Coco or Ondrusek or whomever in the 8th or 9th the problem is the arms.

kfm
06-08-2010, 07:49 PM
The problem with bringin in Herrera is he is the LH specialist. The first 2 batters in the 7th bat RH. That is bad managing. And to compound the problem he brings in GREEN Del Rosario W/ runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out. And he must hate Janish who is probably the best fielder on the team. Not as flashy as Phillips but more solid

He was a left handed specialist last year, this year lefties are hitting him better than righties.

Knightro28
06-08-2010, 11:36 PM
95% of us could manage.

And out of that 95% , 95% would be fired within a season. Managing is much harder than you think. Just because you play video games well doesn't mean you could manage a Major League Baseball team. There is a lot that goes on outside of the actual games -- meetings, roster selections, disciplinary decisions, etc etc.

Dusty is a fine manager. Do I agree with him at all times? Absolutely not. But he has earned every penny this year.

Vottomatic
06-09-2010, 05:19 AM
And out of that 95% , 95% would be fired within a season. Managing is much harder than you think. Just because you play video games well doesn't mean you could manage a Major League Baseball team. There is a lot that goes on outside of the actual games -- meetings, roster selections, disciplinary decisions, etc etc.

Dusty is a fine manager. Do I agree with him at all times? Absolutely not. But he has earned every penny this year.

Whatever dude. I could manage better than Dusty and so could half of this board.

But keep dreaming.

kfm
06-09-2010, 11:36 PM
Bochy makes defensive adjustments in the 9th that probably saved the game for them. If Burrell is still in the game, he doesn't make that catch and Hernandez ends up at 2nd. Then we probably bunt him over and look for the sac fly after that.

Baker would have left Gomes in LF instead of putting in Heisey.

Did you hear Thom emphasize it? Almost like he was taking a jab at Dusty.

I have not looked at the April boxscores yet but below represents every game the Reds went into the played defense in the 9th with a chance for a save since May. It also includes a few games when the Reds went into the the 9th ahead by more than 4 runs. As you can see, tonight is the only game in either May or June that Johnny Gomes stayed in the 9th inning to play defense when the reds were ahead by 4 runs or less. This entire thread is a perfect example of how blinded people are by their hatred of Dusty. He is being attacked for not doing something that he has done in at least every single save situation in the month of may and june. If you actually watch the games, I don't know how you could not know this.

5/5 Reds win by one Nix subs for Gomes in Lf
5/9 Reds win by two Nix subs for Gomes in LF
5/10 Reds win by 1 Nix starts and stays in LF
5/12 Reds win by 5 Heisey subs for Games in LF
5/15 Reds win by 1 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
5/17 Reds win by 3 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
5/24 Reds win by 2 Nix subs for Gomes in LF
5/26 Reds win by 4 Nix plays LF
6/1 Reds win by 1 Heisey subs for GOmes in LF
6/5 Reds win by 4 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
6/6 Reds win by 1 Nix plays LF for GOmes
6/9 Reds win by 3 ahead by 4 Gomes stays in LF

Griffey012
06-10-2010, 12:05 AM
I have not looked at the April boxscores yet but below represents every game the Reds went into the played defense in the 9th with a chance for a save since May. It also includes a few games when the Reds went into the the 9th ahead by more than 4 runs. As you can see, tonight is the only game in either May or June that Johnny Gomes stayed in the 9th inning to play defense when the reds were ahead by 4 runs or less. This entire thread is a perfect example of how blinded people are by their hatred of Dusty. He is being attacked for not doing something that he has done in at least every single save situation in the month of may and june. If you actually watch the games, I don't know how you could not know this.

5/5 Reds win by one Nix subs for Gomes in Lf
5/9 Reds win by two Nix subs for Gomes in LF
5/10 Reds win by 1 Nix starts and stays in LF
5/12 Reds win by 5 Heisey subs for Games in LF
5/15 Reds win by 1 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
5/17 Reds win by 3 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
5/24 Reds win by 2 Nix subs for Gomes in LF
5/26 Reds win by 4 Nix plays LF
6/1 Reds win by 1 Heisey subs for GOmes in LF
6/5 Reds win by 4 Heisey subs for Gomes in LF
6/6 Reds win by 1 Nix plays LF for GOmes
6/9 Reds win by 3 ahead by 4 Gomes stays in LF

Nice research :thumbup: Now if we can just get him to use Janish a little more nobody will have anything else to complain about.

I think by midseason Dusty will start using Janish a bit more as a late inning replacement. He has a tendency to catch on to things this board is calling for, such as a lineup change, he just takes more time to do it...because after all he is the manager of a REAL team and not some PS3 team.

And people can't use the OCab is a "veteran" reasoning either, cause Gomes is a vet also. But Dusty will get attacked for something else, even if we're winning.

kfm
06-10-2010, 12:16 AM
Nice research :thumbup: Now if we can just get him to use Janish a little more nobody will have anything else to complain about.

I think by midseason Dusty will start using Janish a bit more as a late inning replacement. He has a tendency to catch on to things this board is calling for, such as a lineup change, he just takes more time to do it...because after all he is the manager of a REAL team and not some PS3 team.

And people can't use the OCab is a "veteran" reasoning either, cause Gomes is a vet also. But Dusty will get attacked for something else, even if we're winning.

Agree on Janish, but as you mentioned it will not matter. THey will just move onto something else. I find it quite comical to read post from people attacking Walt for not making a deal to help the bullpen and then turn around and argue that the problem with the bullpen is the order in which the players are used. I guess logical consistency just is not a strength of some.

defender
06-10-2010, 12:28 AM
Nice defense by OCab in the 9th.

Vottomatic
06-10-2010, 12:30 AM
Agree on Janish, but as you mentioned it will not matter. THey will just move onto something else. I find it quite comical to read post from people attacking Walt for not making a deal to help the bullpen and then turn around and argue that the problem with the bullpen is the order in which the players are used. I guess logical consistency just is not a strength of some.

I didn't say it was the answer. But Dusty said trying relievers out in different roles would only cause chaos.

Did trying hitters out in different spots in the lineup cause chaos? No. It pumped up the offense.

Dusty's unwillingness to try new things is another problem I have with him.

kfm
06-10-2010, 12:47 AM
I didn't say it was the answer. But Dusty said trying relievers out in different roles would only cause chaos.

Did trying hitters out in different spots in the lineup cause chaos? No. It pumped up the offense.

Dusty's unwillingness to try new things is another problem I have with him.

Interesting post, on the one hand you kinda give DUsty a compliment for trying someting new on the batting order. Then you state that his unwillingness to try new things is something that you have a problem with. There seems to be a disconnect with these two statements. I think he has tried guys like Lincoln, Ondrusec and DRH in more pressure situations in the seventh and eight inning an he has been royally torched on this board for doing so. Having said that with the batting order he moved younger players to important but less pressured positions in the batting order i.e. Stubbs to 7th and Phillips out of the 4th spot and put more veteran players in those spots ie Rolen to 4th and Ocab to leadoff. So he has tried new things in the bullpen and they have not worked, he has tried Rhodes, Masset, Cordero and that has struggled as well. I don't know what you are expecting him to do with this bullpen. The reality is that it is not very good, and will not be until either Masset regains his form or Ondrusec or some other young guy steps up like Burton did a couple of years ago and Masset did last year. In essence people want Dusty to make lemons into lemonade. That is something you tell your kids, it does not work with a bullpen that is currently full of lemons.

Vottomatic
06-10-2010, 02:13 AM
Interesting post, on the one hand you kinda give DUsty a compliment for trying someting new on the batting order. Then you state that his unwillingness to try new things is something that you have a problem with. There seems to be a disconnect with these two statements. I think he has tried guys like Lincoln, Ondrusec and DRH in more pressure situations in the seventh and eight inning an he has been royally torched on this board for doing so. Having said that with the batting order he moved younger players to important but less pressured positions in the batting order i.e. Stubbs to 7th and Phillips out of the 4th spot and put more veteran players in those spots ie Rolen to 4th and Ocab to leadoff. So he has tried new things in the bullpen and they have not worked, he has tried Rhodes, Masset, Cordero and that has struggled as well. I don't know what you are expecting him to do with this bullpen. The reality is that it is not very good, and will not be until either Masset regains his form or Ondrusec or some other young guy steps up like Burton did a couple of years ago and Masset did last year. In essence people want Dusty to make lemons into lemonade. That is something you tell your kids, it does not work with a bullpen that is currently full of lemons.

........and most people in touch with the situation had their jaws drop when he actually tinkered with the lineup. Many people (on here) felt he must have been reading this message board for lineup ideas since NEARLY ALL OF US WERE CLAMORING FOR PHILLIPS TO BAT SECOND AND ROLEN TO BAT CLEANUP. Took him long enough.

There was no disconnect. I can see how you read it that way. I did compliment him FOR FINALLY adjusting the batting lineup and that it worked.

But then he is stubborn as a mule about changing bullpen roles.

Personally, I just think Masset and Herrera had the luxury of being fairly new to the league last year and now the scouting reports are out on them. Nor are they hitting their locations very well.

We probably need to trade for some proven relievers who've done it over time.......ala Arthur Rhodes type pitchers who have been around the block, been scouted and still get it done.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dusty. :D ;)

kfm
06-10-2010, 11:43 PM
........and most people in touch with the situation had their jaws drop when he actually tinkered with the lineup. Many people (on here) felt he must have been reading this message board for lineup ideas since NEARLY ALL OF US WERE CLAMORING FOR PHILLIPS TO BAT SECOND AND ROLEN TO BAT CLEANUP. Took him long enough.

There was no disconnect. I can see how you read it that way. I did compliment him FOR FINALLY adjusting the batting lineup and that it worked.

But then he is stubborn as a mule about changing bullpen roles.

Personally, I just think Masset and Herrera had the luxury of being fairly new to the league last year and now the scouting reports are out on them. Nor are they hitting their locations very well.

We probably need to trade for some proven relievers who've done it over time.......ala Arthur Rhodes type pitchers who have been around the block, been scouted and still get it done.

Don't get me wrong. I love Dusty. :D ;)

I know that was sarcasm. I dont have the time tonight to go through all the boxscores and show where guys have pitched in different places over the course of the season. I guess I would just like to know what different thing in the bullpen you would like him to try. But hey as far as your actual points about the bullpen, I think you hit the nail on the head. They need to trade for some proven arms who are having good seasons right now. This bullpen is just not good enough. I think the only thing that Dusty has left to do is to either wait on the young guys to get better or go batter to batter like La Russa does, if Walt cannot pull off a trade. If this team had last years bullpen, they could have a four or five game lead.