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texasdave
06-12-2010, 12:36 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2010_06_11_kcamlb_cinmlb_1&mode=wrap

Here is a link to the throw home by Drew Stubbs in the 11th. The throw does appear to be up the line a little, but stop the video when Votto catches the ball. The KC runner is nowhere near the plate. As Votto throws to third in an attempt to get the trailing runner, you can clearly see Hernandez throw his arms up as if to say 'what are you doing'? If that throw goes through or if Votto catches and fires home I think they get the runner. This is not blaming Joey Votto. I am sure when practicing that play, if the throw is off-line and needs to be cut off, they are told to try to get the trail runner. But in this situation I think every effort needs to be made to get the runner at home. In a situation like that whose decision is it to cut the ball off? I always thought the catcher made that call. In the end it doesn't really matter. The game is over.

gedred69
06-12-2010, 01:55 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2010_06_11_kcamlb_cinmlb_1&mode=wrap

Here is a link to the throw home by Drew Stubbs in the 11th. The throw does appear to be up the line a little, but stop the video when Votto catches the ball. The KC runner is nowhere near the plate. As Votto throws to third in an attempt to get the trailing runner, you can clearly see Hernandez throw his arms up as if to say 'what are you doing'? If that throw goes through or if Votto catches and fires home I think they get the runner. This is not blaming Joey Votto. I am sure when practicing that play, if the throw is off-line and needs to be cut off, they are told to try to get the trail runner. But in this situation I think every effort needs to be made to get the runner at home. In a situation like that whose decision is it to cut the ball off? I always thought the catcher made that call. In the end it doesn't really matter. The game is over.

You are 100% correct. the runner was out, except for the cut off.

mroby85
06-12-2010, 01:57 AM
Certainly looked like a bad decision to cut that ball off, the ball was stung to CF, and I was surprised when they were sending the runner to begin with, it wouldn't have taken a perfect throw to nail him at the plate. I believe it was the Royals 1B running, not a burner by any stretch, but like you said, games over. Votto had a rough night, and has been slumping it seems like since facing livan hernandez, hopefully he gets it back on track tomorrow.

sabometrics
06-12-2010, 03:12 AM
Looked like a bad decision by Votto but I'm not about to hang this loss on him. The bats had too many opportunities that they let pass late in the game.

Reds
06-12-2010, 08:03 AM
I don't know. I watched the play (and re-watched it) and I can't tell. I will say that I was screaming to send Hernandez (i think) in the 11th before Votto struck out. tough loss, have to get over it and win tonight though, try and force a rubber game.

texasdave
06-12-2010, 08:38 AM
Looked like a bad decision by Votto but I'm not about to hang this loss on him. The bats had too many opportunities that they let pass late in the game.

I wasn't really placing the blame on any particular player. And you are correct in stating that the Reds had ample opportunities with the bats to win this game. I am more disappointed that it seems to be a recurring theme with this ballclub, making poor decisions, baserunning blunders, forgetting how many outs there are in an inning, assuming balls are out of the park instead of running from the start, and so forth. I know this phrase really grates on the nerves of some of the saberfans out there; but playing the game "the right way" is not a strength of this club. I understand that talent is the greater portion of a winning formula. But I also don't believe that this team is talented enough to be frittering away games that they could and maybe should win.

ian_madden
06-12-2010, 10:02 AM
I wasn't really placing the blame on any particular player. And you are correct in stating that the Reds had ample opportunities with the bats to win this game. I am more disappointed that it seems to be a recurring theme with this ballclub, making poor decisions, baserunning blunders, forgetting how many outs there are in an inning, assuming balls are out of the park instead of running from the start, and so forth. I know this phrase really grates on the nerves of some of the saberfans out there; but playing the game "the right way" is not a strength of this club. I understand that talent is the greater portion of a winning formula. But I also don't believe that this team is talented enough to be frittering away games that they could and maybe should win.

I think this team, for the most part does "play the game the right way." I think what you are talking about is mental toughness and focus. This entire team has had a few, FEW small mental breakdowns. We don't go into every game thinking OH GOD How are we going to blow this game this time. These times you speak of are just a hand full of instances where they weren't mentally tough. For the most part we have been playing good ball, and have been focused. I'll take some mental breakdowns early in the season, as long as we fix them.

The Voice of IH
06-12-2010, 11:29 AM
isn't it the catchers job to decide if it is to be cut or not cut? What was Votto doing not listening? that is a bone head play right there.

muddie
06-12-2010, 11:38 AM
isn't it the catchers job to decide if it is to be cut or not cut? What was Votto doing not listening? that is a bone head play right there.

My question exactly. Isn't there supposed to be some audible direction from
the catcher? Maybe Votto didn't hear it? I've watched the play several times and I believe it would have been extremely close. Tough call.

bgwilly31
06-12-2010, 11:58 AM
Okay anybody that played ball as an infielder should know you practice making cut-offs all the time.

Going with the ball all one motion so you can catch and fire it right away.

With that in mind. The ball was wayyy off line and going to be a SHORT HOPPER. Which is a bad thing. Also why hernandez was well behind the line to attempt to make it an easier ball to catch.

Now he should have either let it go or cut it and thrown it home. If you watch the video both the runner from 2nd to 3rd and the runner heading home. Were approximitely the same distance from their base. When votto cut it and threw it to 3rd the guy was smoked. I think he could have cut it and thrown home and had a very close play.


Either way though the throw was offline and a bad one.

Jack Burton
06-12-2010, 01:12 PM
Terrible pitch, put it on a platter.

Quatitos
06-12-2010, 02:01 PM
Terrible pitch, put it on a platter.

And yet that terrible pitch resulted in a very easy out at home and Stubbs failed to make a good throw.

Quatitos
06-12-2010, 02:07 PM
My question exactly. Isn't there supposed to be some audible direction from
the catcher? Maybe Votto didn't hear it? I've watched the play several times and I believe it would have been extremely close. Tough call.

It is very hard to tell from the video whether Ramon would have been able to get to and then get the tag in on time. I think Votto made the right call to cut it off and get the sure out, because with how they had been hitting the last 3 or 4 innings they probably felt that they could at least finally score 1 run.

Also to consider, if the trailing runner is tagged out before the lead runner touches home then the run doesn't count, and maybe Votto thought they could get the tag on the trail runner first, who probably didn't suspect a throw, then the run wouldn't score anyways.

Vottomatic
06-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Yeah, my namesake screwed that one up last night.

Joey seems to be in la-la land lately. He forgot how many outs there were the other night. Then he does this. And his hitting hasn't been very good lately either.

texasdave
06-12-2010, 07:22 PM
It is very hard to tell from the video whether Ramon would have been able to get to and then get the tag in on time. I think Votto made the right call to cut it off and get the sure out, because with how they had been hitting the last 3 or 4 innings they probably felt that they could at least finally score 1 run.

Also to consider, if the trailing runner is tagged out before the lead runner touches home then the run doesn't count, and maybe Votto thought they could get the tag on the trail runner first, who probably didn't suspect a throw, then the run wouldn't score anyways.

According to Marty, Baker said after the game the throw should have gone through. And Hernandez was visibly upset and threw his arms up upon seeing the throw being cut off and then thrown to third. In the 11th inning if there is any chance at all of getting the runner at home that is the way you go. Earlier in the game there is no problem at all with getting the trailing runner. In extra innings it is an entirely different story. Knowing the game situation is the key.

brachial pleXUs
06-13-2010, 12:11 AM
In the Enquirer, Joey said it was his call, and he went on instinct. He didn't say the guy would be out, but he owned up to the decision. End of story.