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Kingspoint
06-14-2010, 06:49 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/06/14/reds-looking-to-louisville-and-beyond-for-relief/

I think he needs to find someone who's able to come in when there are men on base and prevent them from scoring. Herrera had been able to do this (these numbers were through June 9th). Ondrusek has been able to do this, too. Masset, too. But, Masset has been used too much and we need another just like him. Del Rosario has not done well in his short stint so far.

Here are the percentages of inherited runners that each pitcher allows to score in a game. I'll list them from first to worst.

Rhodes.......11%
Herrera.......27%
Ondrusek.....29%
Masset........38%
Lincoln........44%
Fisher.........50%
Owings........73%
Cordero.......75%
Del Rosario...80%

Seems to me that what we really need more than anything else is a dynamic Power Pitcher. Donnie Joseph is that answer, but he's another year away.

Bill Bray will be able to do this, but the most likely candidate who's ready right now and could be promoted this week or next is Travis Wood or Matt Maloney, as Walt indicated.

Travis Wood and Matt Maloney would be great additions to this pen.

I think Walt's trying to direct this problem of not being able to prevent runners from scoring when a Reliever comes into the game with runners on base. He knows that means a pitcher who can get the strikeout at a critical time.

Vottomatic
06-14-2010, 07:07 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/06/14/reds-looking-to-louisville-and-beyond-for-relief/

I think he needs to find someone who's able to come in when there are men on base and prevent them from scoring.

I'm sorry.........but I couldn't keep from laughing after I read your first line, Captain Obvious. ;) :D :thumbup:

My more sarcastic response was going to be.....

DO YOU THINK????

Vottomatic
06-14-2010, 07:10 PM
http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/06/14/reds-looking-to-louisville-and-beyond-for-relief/

I think he needs to find someone who's able to come in when there are men on base and prevent them from scoring. Herrera had been able to do this (these numbers were through June 9th). Ondrusek has been able to do this, too. Masset, too. But, Masset has been used too much and we need another just like him. Del Rosario has not done well in his short stint so far.

Here are the percentages of inherited runners that each pitcher allows to score in a game. I'll list them from first to worst.

Rhodes.......11%
Herrera.......27%
Ondrusek.....29%
Masset........38%
Lincoln........44%
Fisher.........50%
Owings........73%
Cordero.......75%
Del Rosario...80%

Seems to me that what we really need more than anything else is a dynamic Power Pitcher. Donnie Joseph is that answer, but he's another year away.

Bill Bray will be able to do this, but the most likely candidate who's ready right now and could be promoted this week or next is Travis Wood or Matt Maloney, as Walt indicated.

Travis Wood and Matt Maloney would be great additions to this pen.

I think Walt's trying to direct this problem of not being able to prevent runners from scoring when a Reliever comes into the game with runners on base. He knows that means a pitcher who can get the strikeout at a critical time.

Fisher, Del Rosario, and Herrera can all get sent down.

Herrera falls into the category of I see better than I read stats. He rarely let's inherited runners score because he's too busy putting runners on base. I think his numbers are skewed anyway.

I'm willing to let Ondrusek show me something as he has been better lately. But he's on thin ice though.

Owings just doesn't get enough work. That's Dusty's fault.

Kingspoint
06-14-2010, 09:25 PM
I'm sorry.........but I couldn't keep from laughing after I read your first line, Captain Obvious. ;) :D :thumbup:

My more sarcastic response was going to be.....

DO YOU THINK????

I know when I was typing it that it could be seen that way. I should have added though, "as opposed to 'starting an inning by themselves'. Pitching from the stretch versus pitching with men on base is completely different for most pitchers (besides of course the pressure involved).

Kingspoint
06-14-2010, 09:26 PM
...

Vottomatic
06-14-2010, 09:44 PM
I know when I was typing it that it could be seen that way. I should have added though, "as opposed to 'starting an inning by themselves'. Pitching from the stretch versus pitching with men on base is completely different for most pitchers (besides of course the pressure involved).

I couldn't help myself. It just hit me funny and had me laughing out loud.

No intention of trying to offend. Just having a good laugh.

I always catch myself stating many obvious points too. :D

gedred69
06-14-2010, 10:04 PM
Two things I've seen on this thread I agree with. Ondrusek warrants another couple shots, he got it done the other day. (Thin ice is the word). Owings has not had enough work. True. He was from day one represented as long relief, and has not often been used that way.

bshall2105
06-14-2010, 10:06 PM
I proposed this on another thread and some agreed with it and some didn't. Since Mike Leake is eventually going to have his innings reduced and Edinson Volquez will be coming back possibly next month could Leake be a potential canidate to go to the Bullpen when EV returns? You aren't really losing anything in the rotation, just replacing Leake with possibly a better pitcher in Volquez. And we all know the bullpen needs help.

Kingspoint
06-14-2010, 10:14 PM
I proposed this on another thread and some agreed with it and some didn't. Since Mike Leake is eventually going to have his innings reduced and Edinson Volquez will be coming back possibly next month could Leake be a potential canidate to go to the Bullpen when EV returns? You aren't really losing anything in the rotation, just replacing Leake with possibly a better pitcher in Volquez. And we all know the bullpen needs help.

I don't think Walt plans on messing with either pitcher's future as a Starter.

bshall2105
06-14-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't think Walt plans on messing with either pitcher's future as a Starter.

Yes, but why shut him down for the last months of the season when he could very well help our weak bullpen, and stay in the majors all year?

Kingspoint
06-14-2010, 10:48 PM
Yes, but why shut him down for the last months of the season when he could very well help our weak bullpen, and stay in the majors all year?

So that he becomes a stronger pitcher in 2011 and 2012 and 2013 and 2014 and 2015.

COM2010
06-15-2010, 12:26 AM
I couldn't help myself. It just hit me funny and had me laughing out loud.

No intention of trying to offend. Just having a good laugh.

I always catch myself stating many obvious points too. :D

Such as you are Joey's man love? No matter how poorly that guy does, if EVER, he's your man. People avoid threads about Joey when they see your name in it. :D

Vottomatic
06-15-2010, 12:54 AM
Such as you are Joey's man love? No matter how poorly that guy does, if EVER, he's your man. People avoid threads about Joey when they see your name in it. :D

Joey Votto is some kind of man candy. - Jeff Brantley :D

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 01:42 AM
So that he becomes a stronger pitcher in 2011 and 2012 and 2013 and 2014 and 2015.

I understand that, but are you more concerned about Mike Leake's future, or this team possibly making a run this year? I think we need to do everything we can to win now, and not worry about one guy's development. This experiment worked before with David Price, and he's doing just fine today.

muddie
06-15-2010, 01:51 AM
I understand that, but are you more concerned about Mike Leake's future, or this team possibly making a run this year? I think we need to do everything we can to win now, and not worry about one guy's development. This experiment worked before with David Price, and he's doing just fine today.

I'm not crazy about Leake being a bullpen guy. Let's see how well he does the next eight weeks and talk about things then.

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 01:57 AM
I'm not crazy about Leake being a bullpen guy. Let's see how well he does the next eight weeks and talk about things then.

This whole theory of mine is based on Volquez eventually rejoining the rotation which could be in 8 weeks probably less though. I am in no way trying to say to move Leake now.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 04:54 AM
I understand that, but are you more concerned about Mike Leake's future, or this team possibly making a run this year? I think we need to do everything we can to win now, and not worry about one guy's development. This experiment worked before with David Price, and he's doing just fine today.

I'm pretty convinced that Walt has been treating Pitchers throughout this organization properly. He's made so few mistakes when you consider the number of possible mistakes he could have made. He's far exceeded my expectations concerning the development and workload of pitchers. I believe he truly understands the harm that can come to a pitcher through overwork, underwork, and player development. With that said, I think that whatever he does will end up being the right decision. And, if he's consistent with how he's handled others, I think it's highly unlikely that he let's Leake change his regimen from a Starting Pitcher's to a Relief Pitcher's, nor will he let him go over the 190 inning amount for this season, about the max that Leake should pitch for the year.

Vottomatic
06-15-2010, 10:40 AM
I just don't think it's as easy as people on this board seem to think, to convert a starter to a reliever. It's a different mentality and your arm has to be able to bounce back and take it.

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 12:58 PM
I'm pretty convinced that Walt has been treating Pitchers throughout this organization properly. He's made so few mistakes when you consider the number of possible mistakes he could have made. He's far exceeded my expectations concerning the development and workload of pitchers. I believe he truly understands the harm that can come to a pitcher through overwork, underwork, and player development. With that said, I think that whatever he does will end up being the right decision. And, if he's consistent with how he's handled others, I think it's highly unlikely that he let's Leake change his regimen from a Starting Pitcher's to a Relief Pitcher's, nor will he let him go over the 190 inning amount for this season, about the max that Leake should pitch for the year.

Putting Leake in the bullpen in late July or early August would not put him over 190 innings. He would probably end up throwing less than that, and possibly if we made the playoffs, he could make a spot start for us. Also if there is one guy that could handle a change in routine I believe it would be Mike Leake. He made the transition from pitching once a week to every 5th day very smoothly, so he may be able to do this to make the team better short term.

bounty37h
06-15-2010, 01:31 PM
I proposed this on another thread and some agreed with it and some didn't. Since Mike Leake is eventually going to have his innings reduced and Edinson Volquez will be coming back possibly next month could Leake be a potential canidate to go to the Bullpen when EV returns? You aren't really losing anything in the rotation, just replacing Leake with possibly a better pitcher in Volquez. And we all know the bullpen needs help.

Not a chance in heck I would try that. If anything in this scenario, I would flip it and put EV in the pen. I truly believe you are definetely losing something in the rotatition if you take Leake out of it. We also dont know how Vol will come back to start to guess what kind of pitcher he is at this point.

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 02:02 PM
Not a chance in heck I would try that. If anything in this scenario, I would flip it and put EV in the pen. I truly believe you are definetely losing something in the rotatition if you take Leake out of it. We also dont know how Vol will come back to start to guess what kind of pitcher he is at this point.

But we are losing him in the rotation no matter what when he gets to around 180 innings. So why not get 160 innings from him as a starter and then about 15-20 relief appearances getting him to the 180 inning mark? He stays with the club all year. Volquez isn't going to have an innings restriction when he comes back so he will be good to go as a starter. I think this team needs Mike Leake all year if we want to win consistently. And if he does continue starting every 5th day he will be shut down for good way too soon.

Vottomatic
06-15-2010, 05:52 PM
But we are losing him in the rotation no matter what when he gets to around 180 innings. So why not get 160 innings from him as a starter and then about 15-20 relief appearances getting him to the 180 inning mark? He stays with the club all year. Volquez isn't going to have an innings restriction when he comes back so he will be good to go as a starter. I think this team needs Mike Leake all year if we want to win consistently. And if he does continue starting every 5th day he will be shut down for good way too soon.

I don't think any of us know if Volquez will have an inning restriction or pitch count restriction when he comes back.

Griffey012
06-15-2010, 05:59 PM
Putting Leake into the bullpen and changing his routine and what not, as Kingspoint mentioned, would probably do more harm for his arm than actually letting him just pitch as a starter the rest of the season. It should be a shutdown, or no shutdown scenario. No 6 or 7 days rest and things like that. They can skip a start or two if they have off days, but if you do something drastic you probably get drastic results.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 06:12 PM
Putting Leake in the bullpen in late July or early August would not put him over 190 innings. He would probably end up throwing less than that, and possibly if we made the playoffs, he could make a spot start for us. Also if there is one guy that could handle a change in routine I believe it would be Mike Leake. He made the transition from pitching once a week to every 5th day very smoothly, so he may be able to do this to make the team better short term.

While I agree with all of that, there's a risk of injury with a Reliever who's already thrown 120 innings on the season. The Reliever will pitch 10 times in 18 days, or 5 times in 8 days. That's a lot of throwing even if the innings only end up being 10 in the first case and 5 in the second case.

I just wouldn't mess with Mike Leake. Let him get to 190 innings and then shut him down for the year. Volquez will be back by then, and LeCure has proven to be a better starter than Harang right now. Arroyo, Cueto, LeCure, Volquez and Bailey would be a good rotation in September. That doesn't take into account Maloney or Wood or Owings. This team can afford to pull Leake when he reaches his limit.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 06:19 PM
I don't think any of us know if Volquez will have an inning restriction or pitch count restriction when he comes back.

They may not bring him back until he's 100% healthy, true. But, does anyone really want him throwing 125 pitches in a game this season at any point?

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 07:01 PM
I don't think any of us know if Volquez will have an inning restriction or pitch count restriction when he comes back.

Their trying to get him up to 100 pitches by the time he is in triple AAA. If 100 is his limit I don't think that's much of a restriction.

bshall2105
06-15-2010, 07:04 PM
While I agree with all of that, there's a risk of injury with a Reliever who's already thrown 120 innings on the season. The Reliever will pitch 10 times in 18 days, or 5 times in 8 days. That's a lot of throwing even if the innings only end up being 10 in the first case and 5 in the second case.

I just wouldn't mess with Mike Leake. Let him get to 190 innings and then shut him down for the year. Volquez will be back by then, and LeCure has proven to be a better starter than Harang right now. Arroyo, Cueto, LeCure, Volquez and Bailey would be a good rotation in September. That doesn't take into account Maloney or Wood or Owings. This team can afford to pull Leake when he reaches his limit.

Yeah I basically agree with you. I guess the bullpen's woes got to me a little. I was just trying to come up with anything I could that could potentially help it.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 08:16 PM
With Travis Wood starting tonight in AAA, does that mean they've already made their decision who's going to become a Reliever between Wood and Maloney? Or, did they decide to do neither in an attempt to trade one of them for a Reliever. Travis Wood would certainly bring a decent Reliever in return in a trade.

lidspinner
06-15-2010, 09:34 PM
I just don't think it's as easy as people on this board seem to think, to convert a starter to a reliever. It's a different mentality and your arm has to be able to bounce back and take it.


not trying to argue your point as it is a valid opinion....but I just dont buy into that theory. If you can pitch, you can pitch....I have seen interviews wiith both relievers and starters and they both have different opinions...some say you can easily do both, and some say its hard.....I just dont think a guy making millions to be a pitcher could not learn how to do whatever it is that you ask him to do as long it involves pitching. Just my opinion though.

Griffey012
06-15-2010, 10:22 PM
not trying to argue your point as it is a valid opinion....but I just dont buy into that theory. If you can pitch, you can pitch....I have seen interviews wiith both relievers and starters and they both have different opinions...some say you can easily do both, and some say its hard.....I just dont think a guy making millions to be a pitcher could not learn how to do whatever it is that you ask him to do as long it involves pitching. Just my opinion though.

It depends a lot on the pitcher. If a guy has a power arm it is a lot easier. It is tough for a guy who depends more on movement and changing speeds to go from the rotation to the pen. These guys usually get better as there arm gets a little fatigued because they get some extra movement on the ball.

If its a power guy, for example Bailey or Masset, they can throw absolute gas for an inning or two instead of trying to pace themselves for 100 pitches. Also the hitters only see them once maximum a game so they don't have to be quite as sharp with their location.

I would think the opposite is probably true going from the bullpen to starting

ILoveWilly
06-16-2010, 01:24 AM
LOL .. our entire pen has been freaking rocked in this rain delay game. Wow, a whole new level of suckage. Walt, when are you going to do something???

gilpdawg
06-16-2010, 09:44 AM
LOL .. our entire pen has been freaking rocked in this rain delay game. Wow, a whole new level of suckage. Walt, when are you going to do something???
I'm sure he's working on it. Trades aren't made in a day. And like I said in another thread, teams aren't looking to trade yet, because most teams still think they've got a shot.

TheBigLebowski
06-16-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm sorry.........but I couldn't keep from laughing after I read your first line, Captain Obvious. ;) :D :thumbup:

My more sarcastic response was going to be.....

DO YOU THINK????

I had the same reaction.