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View Full Version : Walt's got a major decision to make with Harang.



Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 08:44 PM
He's either going to have to get rid of Harang one way or another or toss the 2010 season into the garbage can by continuing to let him pitch.

I've never understood why General Managers care how much money a player is making determine if he gets playing time or not. They have to pay everyone no matter what, so just play the best players, regardless of salary. Harang's proven he's totally useless, so it's time to stop using him. (his last two starts were against Pittsburgh and Houston, so pitching well against them doesn't count).

arkimadee
06-15-2010, 08:50 PM
The problem is, he hasn't been horrible the last few starts with his numbers, but every fan knows he is getting lucky. He has not pitched well at all but yet somehow ends up only giving up three or four. It's hard to move someone that does that.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 08:56 PM
The problem is, he hasn't been horrible the last few starts with his numbers,....

Great time to trade him for anything. Even a bucket of balls.

malcontent
06-15-2010, 10:29 PM
He's either going to have to get rid of Harang one way or another or toss the 2010 season into the garbage can by continuing to let him pitch.
Agreed. His usual 4 ER in 6 IP, followed by yet another novel or bizarre excuse, has grown old.

At this point Maloney has to be wondering (apart from the blister problem) what he has to do to get called up.

Griffey012
06-15-2010, 10:35 PM
The thing that irks me most, is he never seems to step up when we need him too. Yet we have a guy like LeCure dueling with the opposing teams aces on a routine bases. Looks like we can use the run support excuse tonight, but he gave up 3 in the first on is a big game in a big series.

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 10:50 PM
Agreed. His usual 4 ER in 6 IP, followed by yet another novel or bizarre excuse, has grown old.

At this point Maloney has to be wondering (apart from the blister problem) what he has to do to get called up.

Same with Travis Wood, who's last 6 starts have resulted in an ERA under 2.00.

berryluther
06-15-2010, 11:16 PM
He is untradeable. His option is picked up if traded and no one and I mean no one will pay this dude 14 million next year to stink up their park.

Reds
06-15-2010, 11:16 PM
According to scouts he's throwing his best in several years over the course of his last 6-7 starts, so in theory now would be the time to move him. Can't imagine it happening though.

malcontent
06-15-2010, 11:29 PM
Same with Travis Wood, who's last 6 starts have resulted in an ERA under 2.00.
I agree.

I have pulled for MM for quite awhile, as I know several of us here have. But Wood's definitely earning a shot of his own.

It'll be nice to see at least one, maybe even two lefties in the rotation before long. Of course, one of them will be Aroldis Chapman.

Parliament
06-15-2010, 11:50 PM
He is untradeable. His option is picked up if traded and no one and I mean no one will pay this dude 14 million next year to stink up their park.

Sadly, you are spot on

Kingspoint
06-15-2010, 11:58 PM
He is untradeable. His option is picked up if traded and no one and I mean no one will pay this dude 14 million next year to stink up their park.


Stick him in the bullpen and give him the Owings treatment.

webbbj
06-16-2010, 12:11 AM
i can understand not wanting to pay a guy that makes as much as he does to play in the minors but they can stick him in the pen. maybe he can be more effective knowing he just has to focus on three batters a night instead of 6 innings of batters. they got 6 weeks till the trade deadline might as well see what can be salvaged with harang in the pen. maybe there is something there maybe not but atleast find out.

Reds
06-16-2010, 12:13 AM
June 10th article

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/06/10/harang-impresses-scouts/

"I talked to two scouts about Aaron Harang – one from the National League and another from the American League– both were impressed last night.

“That’s the best I’ve seen him in two years,” one said.

“The only thing he should do is junk that curveball,” the other said.

Harang hung a curveball that Buster Posey hit out for a two-run home run. Those were the only runs Harang allowed.

If Harang continues to pitch like he has – 5-2, 3.93 ERA over his last nine starts – there will be a market for him at the trade deadline.'

Griffey012
06-16-2010, 07:41 AM
He is untradeable. His option is picked up if traded and no one and I mean no one will pay this dude 14 million next year to stink up their park.

Sorry, but that is false. If he is traded the option goes from a club option to a mutual option. Basically giving him the option to decline it if the team were to exercise it. The team wouldn't exercise it, so they would just be responsible for the 2.5 million buyout. This buyout does increase from 2 to 2.5 million if traded.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html

GIDP
06-16-2010, 10:38 AM
You gotta move him to the pen or something. I'm not one of these guys who says "HE SUCKS HE CANT WIN HES THE WORST I HATE HIM AND HIS FAMILY LETS EAT HIS SOUL, EVEN THOUGH IT WOULDNT SOLVE ANYTHING BUT MAKE US MORE HUNGRY BECAUSE THATS HOW EMPTY HE IS" guy that seems to creep up during game threads.

Try him in the pen, see how his stuff works out there. Bring up a travis wood or trade for Dan Haren. Harang is a decent pitcher hes just not close to being a reliable starter anymore.

Gary Redus
06-16-2010, 11:00 AM
Can't keep running him out there. Owings either. Reds have enough offense to win. Good bench. Have to deal with pitching - starting and pen.

DirtyBaker
06-16-2010, 11:21 AM
Harang in the bullpen would be a major help. Ondrusek or Del Rosario would be optioned back to AAA, Wood or Maloney called up to start.

I've been waiting all year for Harang's breakout game it seems.

Reds
06-16-2010, 11:24 AM
I'd move him to the pen too, and spot start him in the event that Leake throws too much. Otherwise I'd relegate him to long-relief, unless you realistically think you can somehow showcase him for a trade.

GIDP
06-16-2010, 11:30 AM
I think Harang could be a good thing out of the pen. Pick up a couple MPH in velocity out of the pen and could scrap the curveball. Harang has enough control to be a David Weathers type of reliever with a better K/9 rate.

brm7675
06-16-2010, 11:37 AM
Sending him down is not an option, a player with his time in can refuse to be sent down. Trading him is not an option right now, he just isn't worth the dollars he is being paid. Putting him in the bullpen is risky at best, he would have to agree to it and I don't see him doing that. So either the Reds live with him for the rest of the season or eat his contract and release him, which ain't going to happen.

And yes outside of the Red Sox and Yankees, all other teams do have to consider salary when making moves.

bounty37h
06-16-2010, 03:15 PM
He's either going to have to get rid of Harang one way or another or toss the 2010 season into the garbage can by continuing to let him pitch.

I've never understood why General Managers care how much money a player is making determine if he gets playing time or not. They have to pay everyone no matter what, so just play the best players, regardless of salary. Harang's proven he's totally useless, so it's time to stop using him. (his last two starts were against Pittsburgh and Houston, so pitching well against them doesn't count).

While I agree with this post, your last statment is offbase; of course it counts. We got swept by the Pirates earlier this year, they are both in our division. Lose those games and your in bigger trouble. You have to win those games, so they may even count more by your statement. If he lost them do they still not count then?

bounty37h
06-16-2010, 03:17 PM
Stick him in the bullpen and give him the Owings treatment.

Or heck, if they are worried because they are already paying him so much, make him work for that money, locker room needs cleaning, laundry done, etc..

redsfanmia
06-16-2010, 03:52 PM
Harang has not been that bad, he has had a good run and has been average this year. I don't know why he is such a whipping boy but look at the stats, he has not been horrible.

GIDP
06-16-2010, 03:55 PM
Harang has not been that bad, he has had a good run and has been average this year. I don't know why he is such a whipping boy but look at the stats, he has not been horrible.

Hes been just good enough to be consistently bad. He hasnt had a very good game but he also hasn't had a Bronson Special. The fact that hes only going 6 innings or so most nights, and giving up 3-4 every time out is driving people nuts. I might be speaking for too many here but there is no improvement from start to start. It basically looks like hes just that guy now.

malcontent
06-16-2010, 03:57 PM
“The only thing he should do is junk that curveball,” the other (scout) said.
Probably meant to say slider.

I won't be a believer in Harang's return to form until I see it actually happen.

I still think he's done.

Kiss the Baby00
06-16-2010, 04:10 PM
harang has been done. id rather them release him or put him in the pen as opposed to running him out there every 5 starts to suck. i think not only would the move be beneficial to this years team but also to the progress of next years team.

Champman is making 5 mill a year to pitch for the Bats.

To put that in perspective he makes more than:

Bailey
Cueto
Volquez
Owings
Hannigan
Cairo
Janish
Votto
Bruce
Stubbs

COMBINED!!!

Get Chapman up here to pitch NOW

brm7675
06-16-2010, 04:22 PM
Why would you bring a young kid whom you are paying alot of money to the show when it is clear he is not ready for it, when in fact you have other pitchers in the system who are better suited to pitch on the major league level right now. Why ruin the kid?


harang has been done. id rather them release him or put him in the pen as opposed to running him out there every 5 starts to suck. i think not only would the move be beneficial to this years team but also to the progress of next years team.

Champman is making 5 mill a year to pitch for the Bats.

To put that in perspective he makes more than:

Bailey
Cueto
Volquez
Owings
Hannigan
Cairo
Janish
Votto
Bruce
Stubbs

COMBINED!!!

Get Chapman up here to pitch NOW

Kiss the Baby00
06-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Why would you bring a young kid whom you are paying alot of money to the show when it is clear he is not ready for it, when in fact you have other pitchers in the system who are better suited to pitch on the major league level right now. Why ruin the kid?

how is it so clear that he is not ready for 'the show?" do you have any idea how he has been doing in AAA? 5 of his last 6 starts have been SUPERB.

if you have been following anything Jockety has said about the kid its how well he has been doing and how he is closer than not.

how is pitching in the majors as opposed to AAA going to " ruin the kid?" the Reds are pulling their June swoon, this kid would not only bring fans to the park but give the Reds a kick start by the excitement he brings.

Please tell me how you are so sure he isnt ready for "the show"

Kingspoint
06-16-2010, 04:45 PM
I'd move him to the pen too, and spot start him in the event that Leake throws too much. Otherwise I'd relegate him to long-relief, unless you realistically think you can somehow showcase him for a trade.

There's a good solution right there.

Kingspoint
06-16-2010, 04:47 PM
Putting him in the bullpen is risky at best, he would have to agree to it and I don't see him doing that.

You really think he's that ungrateful and self-centered of a human being?

Kingspoint
06-16-2010, 04:50 PM
Harang has not been that bad, he has had a good run and has been average this year. I don't know why he is such a whipping boy but look at the stats, he has not been horrible.


No. No. No. No. No.

In every statistical category, Harang is in the bottom 5-15% of all starters. He sucks this year (again, just like last year and the year before).

brm7675
06-16-2010, 04:51 PM
His control issues are still there, he still needs a third pitch and his pitch count to innings pitch are not good. He needs to learn how to pitch and not just be a thrower. Watch Mike Leake, he is a pitcher, right now Chapman is still just a thrower. Also I don't give a rats butt what the "fans" want, i want what is in the best interest of this franchise long term. Starting pitching is not our major weakness, bullpen pitching is and you can not put this kid in the bullpen and if you really think moving Harrang to the bullpen will happen, well then you are really out of touch with today's players.


how is it so clear that he is not ready for 'the show?" do you have any idea how he has been doing in AAA? 5 of his last 6 starts have been SUPERB.

if you have been following anything Jockety has said about the kid its how well he has been doing and how he is closer than not.

how is pitching in the majors as opposed to AAA going to " ruin the kid?" the Reds are pulling their June swoon, this kid would not only bring fans to the park but give the Reds a kick start by the excitement he brings.

Please tell me how you are so sure he isnt ready for "the show"

brm7675
06-16-2010, 04:57 PM
But we are stuck with him for this season. He won't go to the minors and there is real no reason to send him down, I doubt he will agree to go the bullpen and the Reds can't afford to release him and no one is going to take him let alone for anything of value. We are just stuck with him for this season.:(


No. No. No. No. No.

In every statistical category, Harang is in the bottom 5-15% of all starters. He sucks this year (again, just like last year and the year before).

Kiss the Baby00
06-16-2010, 05:01 PM
His control issues are still there, he still needs a third pitch and his pitch count to innings pitch are not good. He needs to learn how to pitch and not just be a thrower. Watch Mike Leake, he is a pitcher, right now Chapman is still just a thrower. Also I don't give a rats butt what the "fans" want, i want what is in the best interest of this franchise long term. Starting pitching is not our major weakness, bullpen pitching is and you can not put this kid in the bullpen and if you really think moving Harrang to the bullpen will happen, well then you are really out of touch with today's players.

i dont want chapman to go to the pen. and lol @ calling me out of touch w todays players.ever heard of carlos zambrano. much better pitcher than harang and a much higher profile, i believe he jsut came back from being in the bullpen. wowzers imagine that. maybe you are the one who is out of touch mate

brm7675
06-16-2010, 05:08 PM
No he is your No. 1 starter who is paid to be a No. 1 starter and he is a major league pitcher. How well did it go for the Cubbies move Carlos Z to the pen? Sorry but I don't see it happening.


You really think he's that ungrateful and self-centered of a human being?

BEETTLEBUG
06-16-2010, 05:09 PM
That is true Zambrano was put in Pen he did not like it, Suppan was also for Brewers so Aaron should not have a choose do it or you find a Team to be traded to.

brm7675
06-16-2010, 05:10 PM
How well did that go for the Cubbies? Z was pissed off the entire time and did not perform well in the pen. Please list other No. 1 starters who were demoted to the bullpen during a season.


i dont want chapman to go to the pen. and lol @ calling me out of touch w todays players.ever heard of carlos zambrano. much better pitcher than harang and a much higher profile, i believe he jsut came back from being in the bullpen. wowzers imagine that. maybe you are the one who is out of touch mate

brm7675
06-16-2010, 05:12 PM
What did the Brewers get in trade return for Suppan? Opps nothing, no one was willing to take on his contract so the Brewers had to eat it. The Reds won't eat 12.5 million this year when they can just release him at the end of the season.


That is true Zambrano was put in Pen he did not like it, Suppan was also for Brewers so Aaron should not have a choose do it or you find a Team to be traded to.

malcontent
06-16-2010, 05:22 PM
Hes been just good enough to be consistently bad.
And just good enough to allow the Reds' FO to look the other way.

Kiss the Baby00
06-16-2010, 05:26 PM
whats a better option?

A) Pay harang and run him out there every 5th start to the detriment of your team

or

B) Pay Harang and release him and run someone else out there in his place who will help the team?

the guy is a bum, he cant throw his curve for a strike and his fastball tops out at 88 and he cant hit his spots. why do you love harang so much? this isnt 2006, this is 4 years later and the guy is done.

brm7675
06-16-2010, 05:40 PM
Of those two of course option B, but this is pro baseball and the Reds are a lower budget team who can't eat 12.5 million dollars, so option A is the only option and you hope he gets better. I don't love harrang, i understand today's ML baseball and the fact that teams like the Reds sometimes are stuck with players especially very expensive players because they can't afford to eat contracts. In a perfect world the Reds dump Harrang, bring up Malloney or Wood and move on, but this isn't a perfect world.


whats a better option?

A) Pay harang and run him out there every 5th start to the detriment of your team

or

B) Pay Harang and release him and run someone else out there in his place who will help the team?

the guy is a bum, he cant throw his curve for a strike and his fastball tops out at 88 and he cant hit his spots. why do you love harang so much? this isnt 2006, this is 4 years later and the guy is done.

GIDP
06-16-2010, 06:27 PM
No. No. No. No. No.

In every statistical category, Harang is in the bottom 5-15% of all starters. He sucks this year (again, just like last year and the year before).

That isnt really true at all. Hes been bad this year but last year and the year before that you are seriously saying he was in the bottom 5-15% in every stat? Hell his ERA last year was above average.

DirtyBaker
06-17-2010, 12:13 AM
Of those two of course option B, but this is pro baseball and the Reds are a lower budget team who can't eat 12.5 million dollars, so option A is the only option and you hope he gets better.

Isn't the $12.5M eaten already? I could be very wrong, but the Reds cutting Harang and replacing him with a better option (Maloney/Wood) doesn't increase the Reds salary at all, AND makes them a better contender for this year.

bshall2105
06-17-2010, 12:49 AM
Isn't the $12.5M eaten already? I could be very wrong, but the Reds cutting Harang and replacing him with a better option (Maloney/Wood) doesn't increase the Reds salary at all, AND makes them a better contender for this year.

Exactly, they're paying the money regardless. The person that gives the team the best chance to win should be the one in the rotation or in the majors.

Kingspoint
06-17-2010, 12:52 AM
That isnt really true at all. Hes been bad this year but last year and the year before that you are seriously saying he was in the bottom 5-15% in every stat? Hell his ERA last year was above average.

Stats that I care about, like OPS-Against.

bounty37h
06-17-2010, 10:31 AM
That is true Zambrano was put in Pen he did not like it, Suppan was also for Brewers so Aaron should not have a choose do it or you find a Team to be traded to.

Other issues of this aside, I think if a team tells a player they are doing something and the player refuses, the contract should be able to be voided at that point. I know it doesnt work that way in their world, but if I told my boss I wasnt taking an assigemnt they give me, well, I get shown the door and asked where to mail my last check.

texasdave
06-17-2010, 10:52 AM
If Harang can go six or seven innings every fifth day and post an ERA of around 4.50 then he is valuable. I think that is unlikely, but it is possible. So hope for the best.

brm7675
06-17-2010, 12:10 PM
No he is still earning that and you would basically be doing what the Brewers did with Suppan and say we will pay you to go away and unlike the Brewers the Reds don't want to do that, and I also bet they are not as down on Harrang as some here are.


Isn't the $12.5M eaten already? I could be very wrong, but the Reds cutting Harang and replacing him with a better option (Maloney/Wood) doesn't increase the Reds salary at all, AND makes them a better contender for this year.

GIDP
06-17-2010, 12:12 PM
Im not a DFA Harang guy but as a starter I'm not seeing much to be happy about. I think he could be a good guy to help stabilize the pen right now. Id like them to try that, and its not a punishment.

brm7675
06-17-2010, 12:13 PM
you must not be a union worker. I worked as a manager for a company that had union workers (like baseball has a union) and when I instructed employee X that I needed them to do Y they said it's not in their contract and they would not do it, and guess what they didn't and were not punished.


Other issues of this aside, I think if a team tells a player they are doing something and the player refuses, the contract should be able to be voided at that point. I know it doesnt work that way in their world, but if I told my boss I wasnt taking an assigemnt they give me, well, I get shown the door and asked where to mail my last check.

brm7675
06-17-2010, 12:14 PM
to you it might not be, but to a starting pitcher who was your opening day starter, viewed as your ace, it's a demotion and not something any starter would consider anything but punishment or a demotion.


Im not a DFA Harang guy but as a starter I'm not seeing much to be happy about. I think he could be a good guy to help stabilize the pen right now. Id like them to try that, and its not a punishment.

GIDP
06-17-2010, 12:18 PM
to you it might not be, but to a starting pitcher who was your opening day starter, viewed as your ace, it's a demotion and not something any starter would consider anything but punishment or a demotion.

No one views him as the ace. Only people who say "ace" are the people who want to point out that he isnt one. He was the opening day starter because Volquez got hurt, Arroyo said he didnt want the start, and Dusty will not give it to a 3rd year pitcher over a guy with more service time, when they put up similar numbers the year before.

It is a demotion, but it doesnt have to be viewed as a major negative.

bounty37h
06-17-2010, 12:28 PM
you must not be a union worker. I worked as a manager for a company that had union workers (like baseball has a union) and when I instructed employee X that I needed them to do Y they said it's not in their contract and they would not do it, and guess what they didn't and were not punished.

Nope, I am not a union guy, dont know any to be honest. And for that reason I think I am glad? In this instance though, its in his contract to frickin pitch, so if they want him to be a starter, BP, AAA, or little league, he should do it IMO (and of course dont know if they have asked or how he did/would respond, just being general here).

Caveman Techie
06-17-2010, 05:22 PM
No. No. No. No. No.

In every statistical category, Harang is in the bottom 5-15% of all starters. He sucks this year (again, just like last year and the year before).

Here is his last 5 outings:

May 24th 4 ER in 6.1 IP
May 29th 1 ER in 7.0 IP
June 04th 2 ER in 4.0 IP
June 09th 2 ER in 7.0 IP
June 15th 5 ER in 4.1 IP

While I agree he is no longer the ace of the staff, he has been very serviceable. The problem has been in alot of his 4ER or worse games Dusty is trying to squeeze that extra inning out of him and he just doesn't have it left in him. I can remember 2 games at least this year where Dusty has done this to him and ended up costing him another 1 - 2 ER, cause lord knows the Reds bullpen certainly couldn't keep anyone from scoring.

Call off the witch hunt, put up the pitch forks, and snuff out the torches.

Kingspoint
06-17-2010, 07:18 PM
Here is his last 5 outings:

May 24th 4 ER in 6.1 IP
May 29th 1 ER in 7.0 IP
June 04th 2 ER in 4.0 IP
June 09th 2 ER in 7.0 IP
June 15th 5 ER in 4.1 IP



3 of those 5 are sucky starts. One of his good ones was against Pittsburgh or Houston, which any yahoo from AAA or AA could have done. He stepped up against the Giants. So, that's 1 good start. And, when you compare that to how bad he's been over his last 60 starts, there's no sign of improvement.

He's had 4-1/2 months now to work with Bryan Price. I figured that June would be Harang's do or die month because of it, but he's sucked in two of three starts in June. He's averaging 5 IP w/ 3 ER's in June (ERA of nearly 6.00). That sucks under any scenario.

Vottomatic
06-17-2010, 08:24 PM
I feel bad for Aaron. He and his family are going to have to learn how to live on $1M or $2M next season after living on $12M+ for the last several. :D

Caveman Techie
06-17-2010, 09:37 PM
3 of those 5 are sucky starts. One of his good ones was against Pittsburgh or Houston, which any yahoo from AAA or AA could have done. He stepped up against the Giants. So, that's 1 good start. And, when you compare that to how bad he's been over his last 60 starts, there's no sign of improvement.

He's had 4-1/2 months now to work with Bryan Price. I figured that June would be Harang's do or die month because of it, but he's sucked in two of three starts in June. He's averaging 5 IP w/ 3 ER's in June (ERA of nearly 6.00). That sucks under any scenario.

Where do you come off with 3 of 5 being sucky? 2 of the 5 are QUALITY STARTS. and 1 other while shortened was well on it's way to a QS :rolleyes: We can go the 5 starts before that too if you want, they look almost identical to those 5 here ya go:

May 19th 4ER 6.0IP
May 14th 4ER 6.0IP
May 08th 2ER 8.0IP
May 02nd 3ER 6.0IP
APR 27th 2ER 6.0IP

Is AH the stud he used to be, no. Is he worth the 12 million dollar contract right now, no. Is he still serviceable, yes. Will his option be picked up next year, nope.

He had a horrible start to the season and he has been bringing his ERA down ever since. Yesterday was rough, but if the Reds bullpen could ever stop an Inherited runner from scoring he would have had a much better line from last night.

Kingspoint
06-17-2010, 10:00 PM
Where do you come off with 3 of 5 being sucky?

4 ER in 6IP sucks (that's an ERA of 6.00 and leaving 9 outs for the rest of the bullpen)
2 ER in 4IP sucks (if your starter can only go 4 innings, that's a sucky start any way you look at it for what it's done to the bullpen for that game and the next several games. It's also a 4.50 ERA, and means that he got extremely lucky to not give up more runs.)
5 ER in 4.1IP realy, really, really, really sucks.

By the way....I don't care what anybody tells you.....THERE'S NOTHING QUALITY ABOUT ONLY PITCHING 6 INNINGS, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU GIVE UP 3 RUNS. Giving up 3 runs and pitching 6 innings sucks. That's way below what the "average" pitcher does in the National League. And, if that's below what "average" is, how can it be "quality". "Quality" should be "better than average". The "average" pitcher in the National League in June (they are stretched out now) goes 7IP, 8H, 3R, 3ER, 2BB, 5K. Harang had only 1 start as good as that out of his last 5.

Caveman Techie
06-18-2010, 08:49 AM
So the traditionally accepted measurement for Quality starts means nothing to you...ok
Go ahead and continue your jihad :rolleyes:

Kingspoint
06-18-2010, 05:51 PM
So the traditionally accepted measurement for Quality starts means nothing to you...ok
Go ahead and continue your jihad :rolleyes:

There's nothing "traditional" about it!