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Vottomatic
06-16-2010, 01:02 PM
Quality Starts - going 6+ innings and allowing 3 or less earned runs

Harang - 6 quality starts out of 14 games started or 6/14
Arroyo - 6 out of 13 starts or 6/13
Cueto - 6/13
Bailey - 3/9
Leake - 10/12
LeCure - 2/4

By comparison - St. Louis

Carpenter - 11/14 - went less than 6 innings one time, and gave up 4 earned runs in two other games.
Garcia - 10/12 - only because he only went 5 innings twice, but still gave up less than 3 runs. Has not given up more than 2 earned runs in any game yet.
Wainwright - 12/14 - has not gone less than 6 innings yet this season
Lohse - 4/9 - on the DL
Penny - 7/9 - on the DL; had 7 straight quality starts to begin the season.
Hawksworth - 0/1 - had one start, lasted 4 innings, gave up 6 ER's
Suppan - 0/1 - had one start, lasted 4 innings, gave up 4 hits and 1 ER


Cardinals top 3 starters > Reds top 3 starters by alot:(

brm7675
06-16-2010, 01:16 PM
But we knew for sure that 2 of the Card starters would be that good, the third has been a surprise. Yet with all that great pitching they are 0 games ahead of the Reds. Also add in they have the best hitter in the major leagues right now, a very good secondary hitter and a pretty decent pitching coach/manager and you have to wonder why they are not ahead by more?


Quality Starts - going 6+ innings and allowing 3 or less earned runs

Harang - 6 quality starts out of 14 games started or 6/14
Arroyo - 6 out of 13 starts or 6/13
Cueto - 6/13
Bailey - 3/9
Leake - 10/12
LeCure - 2/4

By comparison - St. Louis

Carpenter - 11/14 - went less than 6 innings one time, and gave up 4 earned runs in two other games.
Garcia - 10/12 - only because he only went 5 innings twice, but still gave up less than 3 runs. Has not given up more than 2 earned runs in any game yet.
Wainwright - 12/14 - has not gone less than 6 innings yet this season
Lohse - 4/9 - on the DL
Penny - 7/9 - on the DL; had 7 straight quality starts to begin the season.
Hawksworth - 0/1 - had one start, lasted 4 innings, gave up 6 ER's
Suppan - 0/1 - had one start, lasted 4 innings, gave up 4 hits and 1 ER


Cardinals top 3 starters > Reds top 3 starters by alot:(

bshall2105
06-16-2010, 01:16 PM
I thin we have all known this entire season that the Cardinal rotation is far superior to the Reds. St. Louis should be way up in this division, I didn't realize how bad their offense had been this year. Wow.

Kingspoint
06-16-2010, 05:03 PM
And, that's if you think an ERA of 4.50 is "quality" (6IP and 3ER), which I don't.

1990REDS
06-16-2010, 05:11 PM
And, that's if you think an ERA of 4.50 is "quality" (6IP and 3ER), which I don't.

I agree. I always thought the three runs was a little generous and 6 innings is more average than quality. It should be somthing like 6IP 2ER or 7IP 3ER. At least to me 6IP 3ER is a average outing and not really worthy of its own stat. Theres my 2 cents.

redhat
06-16-2010, 05:32 PM
The Quality Start is a stat that was invented by a player agent to prove that his client, who lost a lot of games, still pitched well enough to deserve more money.

I still like the stat, and not just because the Cards have a lot of them. When a pitcher gets a QS with the minimum required (6IP, 3ER) I don't see it as a bad game despite the 4.50 ERA. The pitcher has still covered 2/3 of the innings load, saving the bullpen some work, and has kept his team in the game.

And it's important to remember that some QS are better than the minimum.

For me, the stat is worth more when looked at in aggregate than in detail. V's opening post is a good example of that. You get an immediate sense of which starters are consistently putting up outings of six innings or more.

mivers176
06-17-2010, 08:44 AM
This is exactly why I wish we would sell off some of the future for a stud ace now like Oswalt or Lee. Someone that can come in and dominate a game at any time - we have promise in Cueto but absolutely no consistency. I'm tired of always being afraid of getting rid of young talent, lets win NOW while we have the chance for once...pleeeeaase. Add a top notch starter and send one of the current to middle relief and lets see what happens.

Bailey & Stubbs for Oswalt?

bounty37h
06-17-2010, 09:19 AM
Is Oswalt really an ace anymore, I ask seriously, but seems like he has started going downhill. I could be wrong, haven't paid any attention to him lately. I think he has been such a reds killer we tend to think of him as more then he may be at this point in his career?

texasdave
06-17-2010, 09:57 AM
I have watched Oswalt a number of times this year and he is pitching well. Much better than the last couple of seasons. His Hits/9 is the lowest of his career and his K/9 is second only to his rookie season. He works fast and he throws strikes. He has taken the ball 14 times and delivered 12 quality starts. That says Ace to me. Maybe that rubs off on the Reds staff. That being said, he is still due a ton of money on the remainder of his contract.

mivers176
06-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Oswalt so far in 2010 on a BAD Houston team:

quality starts by the way, 12 out of 14 and keep in mind he doesnt make that much more than our friend Harang (i think only one million more which is nothing) - we are going to dump his and maybe Arroyo salary for next year so why not take a shot now!!? anyway, the stats in 2010 for Oswalt

5-8 3.12 era 92 inn 89 k's 24 bb's

this is a real ace, something we dont have close to right now...

Vottomatic
06-17-2010, 03:48 PM
Oswalt so far in 2010 on a BAD Houston team:

quality starts by the way, 12 out of 14 and keep in mind he doesnt make that much more than our friend Harang (i think only one million more which is nothing) - we are going to dump his and maybe Arroyo salary for next year so why not take a shot now!!? anyway, the stats in 2010 for Oswalt

5-8 3.12 era 92 inn 89 k's 24 bb's

this is a real ace, something we dont have close to right now...

Have Rolen talk him into reworking his contract down to $7M per year, then I'll think about it. :D

bounty37h
06-18-2010, 09:59 AM
Wow, ok, thanks for the info guys, I had it in my head he was on a downward spiral in his career, btu guess I was wrong!

Caveman Techie
06-18-2010, 11:00 AM
Quality Start is a good stat to show if your pitcher has kept his team in the game or not. Despite what others want to say, it is a good base judge of how your starting staff is doing.

Kingspoint
06-18-2010, 05:00 PM
Quality Start is a good stat to show if your pitcher has kept his team in the game or not. Despite what others want to say, it is a good base judge of how your starting staff is doing.

It's a poor judge of how your pitcher is doing. It's something just recently invented to make excuses for all of the crappy outings by mediocre pitchers who can't throw the ball a mere 7 innings because they're too stupid to pitch effectively.

There's nothing quality about a pitcher only going a measly 6 innings while giving up 3 Earned Runs (never mind any unearned runs, which he's also responsible for because he either put that guy on base with a hit or a walk, or he failed to keep him from scoring by allowing a scoring at-bat).

Since the average team scores less than 4.50 runs per game, how can anyone call an ERA of 4.50 (6IP and 3 ER) "Quality"? You can call it "Average" if you want, but not "Quality".

7 Innings pitched while giving up 2 Earned Runs. That's a quality start. Even 7 Innings pitched while giving up 3 Runs, earned or not, I'll go as far as to say is a quality start.

But, if you can't even go 7 innings and you've still given up 3 Runs, you've put too much pressure on your bullpen (It's likely 3 guys or more get used up because you couldn't pitch effectively.). Every game pitched like this deteriorates the bullpen. Most of the REDS' games, Harang as guilty as any of them, have been like this and as a result, Masset and Cordero have been overused with Masset and Cordero feeling the effects. While the rest of the bullpen has been asked to do more than it was capable of doing.

Caveman Techie
06-19-2010, 11:46 AM
:rolleyes:

redhat
06-24-2010, 12:21 AM
There's nothing quality about a pitcher only going a measly 6 innings while giving up 3 Earned Runs ...
In every thread about quality starts, on every message board I've ever read, someone says something like this. The unstated implication (usually) being that a guy that has 10 quality starts pitched 60 innings and gave up 30 runs in those games, and has an ERA of about 4.50. (Please note I'm not assuming KP was thinking that in this particular case).

6IP, 3ER is the minimum required for a quality start. Pitchers that have a lot of quality starts exceed the minimum regularly. To take an example that was mentioned in the opening thread, let's look at Adam Wainwright's quality starts in the aggregate.

As of today, June 23, Wainwright has started 15 games and has 13 quality starts. In those 13 games, he's pitched 97 innings and given up 19 earned runs. That averages out to 7.46 IP per game and an ERA of 1.76. Among his quality starts, there is only one game with 6IP and 3ER.

That's just one example. How about we look at all NL pitchers that have 10 QS or more (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/league/nl/sort/qualityStarts/type/expanded). Pitcher and overall ERA.

14 QS
Ubaldo Jimenez, 1.60

13 QS
Roy Oswalt, 3.08
Waino, 2.23
Josh Johnson, 1.80

12 QS
Tim Hudson, 2.48
Roy Halladay, 2.43
Matt Cain, 2.16
Tim Lincecum, 2.86
Jaime Garcia, 1.79
Chris Carpenter, 2.63

11 QS
Barry Zito, 3.45
Livan Hernandez, 2.82
Mike Leake, 2.92

10 QS
Ryan Dempster, 3.56
Carlos Silva, 3.01
Mike Pelfrey, 2.69
Yovani Gallardo, 2.59
Hiroki Kuroda, 3.06
Clayton Kershaw, 3.24
Mat Latos, 2.93

Are there any of you who wouldn't feel great about adding any one of the guys on this list to your team? Not one ERA over 4 in the lot. And their ERAs measuring only their quality starts are all lower. In fact, this list encompasses the top 10 ERA leaders and most of the top 20.

If you follow my link and scroll down, you don't see an ERA over 4.5 until you get to Rodrigo Lopez and Dan Haren, who each have 8 QS. Lopez with 15 starts and Haren with 16. So let's look at them in a little more detail...

In Lopez's 8 quality starts, he pitched 57 innings and allowed 16 earned runs. Averaging over 7IP with an ERA of 2.53. His overall ERA is 4.59.

In Haren's 8 quality starts, he pitched 61 1/3 innings and allowed 15 ER. Averaging 7 2/3 IP with an ERA of 2.20. His overall ERA is 4.65.

It's pretty clear that neither Lopez nor Haren are hurting their teams when they pitch a quality start. Their overall ERA's are high because they only produce a QS about half the time.

Kingspoint
06-24-2010, 03:08 AM
redhat, you make a good point that if you have a high percentage of quality starts among your starts, then you're likely to also have a low ERA for the season, even if some of those starts are only 6IP while giving up 3ER.

Kingspoint
06-24-2010, 03:10 AM
Also, someone's going to acquire Oswalt and be very happy about it.