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View Full Version : Reds blog calls Yonder Alonso a bust?



Blitz Dorsey
06-19-2010, 03:52 PM
Well, they do couch it that he has time to turn it around, but his numbers combined at AA/AAA this year have been less-than-impressive:

http://www.threewaychili.com/

No way you can call him a bust yet IMO but I think everyone is a bit concerned about him.

RedsIn07
06-19-2010, 04:24 PM
Yeah and Gordon Beckham is with the White Sox producing a line that would put Willy Taveras to shame. They're young players and it's too soon to tell.

GIDP
06-19-2010, 04:24 PM
I know some people with Reds blogs who are complete fools. Why should I care what this one has to say?

That being said there are people who consider players bust the moment they get drafted, consider them bust if someone else taken after them ends up being better or at the major league level quicker, or bust until they put on a major league uniform and get voted into the hall.

Bust is such a stupid term because everyone has differerent definitions for it.

RED VAN HOT
06-19-2010, 04:59 PM
My question has never been whether he can hit, but whether he can hit for sufficient power to play 1B. At this point it remains an open question. Can anyone comment on the length of time typically needed to recover power after a hamate injury?

dougdirt
06-19-2010, 05:06 PM
My question has never been whether he can hit, but whether he can hit for sufficient power to play 1B. At this point it remains an open question. Can anyone comment on the length of time typically needed to recover power after a hamate injury?Typically a year from healing. In his case, August.

redsfandan
06-19-2010, 06:24 PM
Well, they do couch it that he has time to turn it around, but his numbers combined at AA/AAA this year have been less-than-impressive:

http://www.threewaychili.com/

No way you can call him a bust yet IMO but I think everyone is a bit concerned about him.
Considering the site says that the author is a sports journalist I'm not impressed. At least based off of that one piece. There are alot of people in the media that love to rush to judgement on things. He just doesn't sound any different.

muddie
06-19-2010, 08:06 PM
I've seen Yonder play quite a bit. To hint that he may be a bust is garbage.

Benihana
06-19-2010, 08:08 PM
Agree that it's too soon for this, but I'd like to see him continue to hit the way he has in the past week or two and get that OPS over .800 by the end of the year. Hammate be damned.

Mario-Rijo
06-20-2010, 02:50 PM
Considering the site says that the author is a sports journalist I'm not impressed. At least based off of that one piece. There are alot of people in the media that love to rush to judgement on things. He just doesn't sound any different.

Dave Biddle is a journalist with Bucknuts.com and is a solid guy but I think he clearly has less insight into baseball than football. Not to suggest his opinion is wrong (although I do think so) but he clearly doesn't see the whole picture based on his argument IMO.

Kingspoint
06-20-2010, 06:37 PM
I knew there was a reason why I've never read that blog.

lidspinner
06-20-2010, 07:12 PM
I've seen Yonder play quite a bit. To hint that he may be a bust is garbage.

I too have seen him more than a few times and I have even talked(typed) with Kingspoint about Yonder....I just dont see his upside...but to call him a bust is pure hogwash.....the guy is doing just fine. He hardly ever looks foolish at the plate as most 2-3 year guys do....he hardly ever does not hit backside when the situation calls for it...he is not afraid to sac a runner over.....the guy is a trooper and I really do think he will be in a Reds uniform at some point...I just think it will take him a few more years to get here....Might not be what we all want for a 1st rounder but once the Reds draft a player,he is the same as every other player that wears that uni, I dont care about where he was drafted...I look at him as a Red, not as a former 1st rounder. so with that said, he is not a bust, not even close.

Redsfan320
06-20-2010, 07:56 PM
Speaking of Beckham's line, I'll post it here just for the humor or it:

.205/.277/.259/.536

Good Lord.

320

GOYA
06-20-2010, 11:11 PM
Which is worse?

.205/.277/.259/.536 against major league pitchers

or

.236/.288/.338/.626 against AAA pitchers

But really, does it matter which is worse?

TRF
06-21-2010, 08:56 AM
Alonso has had a rough time development wise. He was hampered by the injury to his hamate bone, which should see him just now getting his power back. He's had to deal with a new position, LF at AA only to see him now making the bulk of his starts at 1B due to the injury to Dorn. Since signing at the end of 2008 he's barely gotten a season's worth of PA's in his professional career. Take this years numbers as development only. Next year is what matters. He's not going to be a Red out of ST next year. Personally I'm going to start looking at his stats starting July1. He should be healthy by then.

The Voice of IH
06-21-2010, 09:59 AM
Joke is on us....it has us talking about their blog (which I never heard of until today)

tbball10
06-21-2010, 10:05 AM
I too have seen him more than a few times and I have even talked(typed) with Kingspoint about Yonder....I just dont see his upside...but to call him a bust is pure hogwash.....the guy is doing just fine. He hardly ever looks foolish at the plate as most 2-3 year guys do....he hardly ever does not hit backside when the situation calls for it...he is not afraid to sac a runner over.....the guy is a trooper and I really do think he will be in a Reds uniform at some point...I just think it will take him a few more years to get here....Might not be what we all want for a 1st rounder but once the Reds draft a player,he is the same as every other player that wears that uni, I dont care about where he was drafted...I look at him as a Red, not as a former 1st rounder. so with that said, he is not a bust, not even close.

Normally I would agree, but the main difference between Alonso and other draft picks is that he signed a major league deal. He has already spent two years in the minors making more money than Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Stubbs, etc. (and just $25k less than Votto), and he is almost surely going to spend part, if not all of next year in AAA as well. That would leave him with only two years on his deal left if I'm not mistaken, so I think it's almost safe to say he's a bust if he doesen't turn it around quickly.

Scrap Irony
06-21-2010, 10:09 AM
Take this years numbers as development only. Next year is what matters. He's not going to be a Red out of ST next year. Personally I'm going to start looking at his stats starting July1. He should be healthy by then.

As a 1B/LF, he'll need to OPS 850+ in AAA for me to get even a little excited about him. He's done that at one level so far in his minor league career.

Those that dismiss Alonso as little more than a bust are obviously off-base, as he still has two years to develop into that bat. But he has a ways to go, at this point, injuries be darned.

dougdirt
06-21-2010, 05:08 PM
Normally I would agree, but the main difference between Alonso and other draft picks is that he signed a major league deal. He has already spent two years in the minors making more money than Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Volquez, Stubbs, etc. (and just $25k less than Votto), and he is almost surely going to spend part, if not all of next year in AAA as well. That would leave him with only two years on his deal left if I'm not mistaken, so I think it's almost safe to say he's a bust if he doesen't turn it around quickly.

You are very wrong. Simply because he got an MLB deal doesn't mean those years count as far as him being a FA sooner. It just means he starts using options sooner. The Reds still control him for 6 years of MLB service time.

tbball10
06-21-2010, 07:03 PM
You are very wrong. Simply because he got an MLB deal doesn't mean those years count as far as him being a FA sooner. It just means he starts using options sooner. The Reds still control him for 6 years of MLB service time.

Ok, I didn't know that. Then why do some picks push for a big league deal so bad?

dougdirt
06-21-2010, 08:00 PM
Ok, I didn't know that. Then why do some picks push for a big league deal so bad?

So they can hypothetically get to the majors quicker as they begin using options immediately rather than 3-4 years down the line.

tbball10
06-21-2010, 08:07 PM
So they can hypothetically get to the majors quicker as they begin using options immediately rather than 3-4 years down the line.

so how many option years does he have left?

dougdirt
06-21-2010, 09:20 PM
so how many option years does he have left?

Two.

LoganBuck
06-21-2010, 10:49 PM
Two.

doug, I think you are wrong on that. He signed in August 2008 so he didn't burn one that season. Last season, 2009, he burned an option, and this season 2010, he has burned another. Unless I am mistaken, players only have three option years. So Yonder would only have one option year, presumably 2011, remaining. Meaning he must stick to a MLB roster by 2012.

GOYA
06-21-2010, 11:12 PM
Does injury time have an effect?

redsof72
06-21-2010, 11:24 PM
To call Alonso a bust at this point makes about as much sense as those people that were saying the Reds should trade Votto the day after the 2008 draft. People over-react on both ends.

Let's wait a little while before we call him a bust or assume he will be a star. He has, what, 500 pro at-bats?

dougdirt
06-21-2010, 11:40 PM
doug, I think you are wrong on that. He signed in August 2008 so he didn't burn one that season. Last season, 2009, he burned an option, and this season 2010, he has burned another. Unless I am mistaken, players only have three option years. So Yonder would only have one option year, presumably 2011, remaining. Meaning he must stick to a MLB roster by 2012.

He gets 4 options years. If a player has less than 5 pro seasons, they get 4 option years. It doesn't often come into play, but does for guys who sign MLB deals directly out of the draft.

LoganBuck
06-21-2010, 11:41 PM
Does injury time have an effect?

No, Bill Bray has been burning options while rehabbing his elbow. It saved the Reds from paying him for service time accrued during the process.

LoganBuck
06-21-2010, 11:55 PM
He gets 4 options years. If a player has less than 5 pro seasons, they get 4 option years. It doesn't often come into play, but does for guys who sign MLB deals directly out of the draft.

Isn't that where the 2008 season comes into play? If you count 2008 you get four. Years don't count as full years, they just count as seasons, correct? Or do they have to hit 20 days of service to count as a season?

dougdirt
06-22-2010, 12:09 AM
Isn't that where the 2008 season comes into play? If you count 2008 you get four. Years don't count as full years, they just count as seasons, correct? Or do they have to hit 20 days of service to count as a season?

You need X amount of days for it to count as an option. I can't remember how many it is exactly, but he didn't qualify for 2008. 2009 was his first option year. 2010 was his 2nd. 2011 will be his 3rd and 2012 will be his 4th if needed. He must stick by 2013 if all are used.

Brutus
06-24-2010, 01:20 PM
Considering the site says that the author is a sports journalist I'm not impressed. At least based off of that one piece. There are alot of people in the media that love to rush to judgement on things. He just doesn't sound any different.

I know Dave personally. He's been a credentialed member of the media for at least 7 years covering Ohio State football (and sometimes basketball). He's good at what he does and not just some hack. I definitely do not agree with him on this, but he's legit.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 01:52 PM
I know Dave personally. He's been a credentialed member of the media for at least 7 years covering Ohio State football (and sometimes basketball). He's good at what he does and not just some hack. I definitely do not agree with him on this, but he's legit.
I'm not saying he isn't legit or that he isn't good at the other stuff he does. But, for the sake of argument, if I'm to judge a journalist off of one article that just wasn't a good one, whether it's a blog or not. Writing about a Reds prospect and suggesting that he might be a bust when it's only been two years since he was drafted and he's had to deal with an injury half the time? It made him sound to me like someone from WLW. Not everyone can hit a home run everytime and most journalists, even good ones, can't be good at everything.

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 02:01 PM
Not everyone can hit a home run everytime and most journalists, even good ones, can't be good at everything.

Not that this has to do with this article at all.... but a journalist shouldn't be telling people what they think. A journalist should be telling people what happened, the facts.

Simply because one covers a sport does not make them knowledgeable about the sport or a scout/talent evaluator either. I know that I have had my fair share of disagreements and probably burned a bridge or two over it by having discussions about baseball players in press boxes. Actually had one guy in my face pointing his finger at me over a disagreement about a player. Just because you got a degree as a journalist doesn't mean you know anything about what you are covering. It means you are likely qualified to put together a story on what you witnessed.

GIDP
06-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Not that this has to do with this article at all.... but a journalist shouldn't be telling people what they think. A journalist should be telling people what happened, the facts.

Simply because one covers a sport does not make them knowledgeable about the sport or a scout/talent evaluator either. I know that I have had my fair share of disagreements and probably burned a bridge or two over it by having discussions about baseball players in press boxes. Actually had one guy in my face pointing his finger at me over a disagreement about a player. Just because you got a degree as a journalist doesn't mean you know anything about what you are covering. It means you are likely qualified to put together a story on what you witnessed.

The degree comment is so 100% true. I dont know how anyone could disagree that a large, and I mean massive, percentage of this board wouldnt be able to be a beat writer. I know a few people on here have blogs who simply would destroy any journalist in the Cincinnati area when it comes to covering sports. I used to have a blog, that got a decent amount of traffic I would say on the Reds I have since quit doing because I had to actually make money. The only thing a journalist knows more about is how to be a journalist and the protocol you follow. If any degree is just a piece of paper its a journalism degree. I'd take my handful of no name blog writers over your lot of guys from print outlets every day of the week, and not even think twice about.

Journalism is the job, knowing about the topic isnt.

Brutus
06-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Not that this has to do with this article at all.... but a journalist shouldn't be telling people what they think. A journalist should be telling people what happened, the facts.

Simply because one covers a sport does not make them knowledgeable about the sport or a scout/talent evaluator either. I know that I have had my fair share of disagreements and probably burned a bridge or two over it by having discussions about baseball players in press boxes. Actually had one guy in my face pointing his finger at me over a disagreement about a player. Just because you got a degree as a journalist doesn't mean you know anything about what you are covering. It means you are likely qualified to put together a story on what you witnessed.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but everyone is entitled to opinion and everyone expresses them. Social media has obviously changed journalism and blurred the lines between journalism and one's own personal opinions.

It used to be that a journalist, when he wanted to express an opinion, would write a column that was labeled "editorial" to let the reader know it was an opinion and not a report. In today's world, journalists write columns, publish blogs and 'tweet' things under the guise of their credentials with no careful considerations of clarifying whether they're posting an opinion or as the reputation of their work.

What you say has some truth, but the problem is now that they express an opinion (whether or not they're qualified is a different matter). It's that they're clumsy in prefacing whether they're speaking as a journalist or as a fan.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Not that this has to do with this article at all.... but a journalist shouldn't be telling people what they think. A journalist should be telling people what happened, the facts.
Wrong. That's a reporter. A reporter deals with only the facts. And not all journalists are reporters. There is a difference. Daugherty is one example. Facts are helpful but they aren't the most important thing to that kind of writer. That piece wasn't about reporting the facts. It was about his opinion and pretty much only his opinion.

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Wrong. That's a reporter. A reporter deals with only the facts. And not all journalists are reporters. There is a difference. Daugherty is one example. Facts are helpful but they aren't the most important thing to that kind of writer. That piece wasn't about reporting the facts. It was about his opinion and pretty much only his opinion.

The definition of a journalist (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/journalist) is this: a person who keeps a journal, diary, or other record of daily events.

By defintion, a journalist is to record the facts of what happened.

One who gives an opinion on something is a pundit.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 02:54 PM
The definition of a journalist (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/journalist) is this: a person who keeps a journal, diary, or other record of daily events.

By defintion, a journalist is to record the facts of what happened.

One who gives an opinion on something is a pundit.
Nice try Doug. Yes, the definition you provided says that a journalist is "a person who keeps a journal, diary, or other record of daily events". It doesn't say that they will always stick to only the facts and it doesn't say that subjective opinions can't be included.

I will agree that one that provides their opinion can be called a pundit. That's not what I'd call Daugherty though. He's not a pundit or a reporter imo. He's a sports columnist. As is, I'm guessing, the author of the blog.

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 03:30 PM
Nice try Doug. Yes, the definition you provided says that a journalist is "a person who keeps a journal, diary, or other record of daily events". It doesn't say that they will always stick to only the facts and it doesn't say that subjective opinions can't be included.

I will agree that one that provides their opinion can be called a pundit. That's not what I'd call Daugherty though. He's not a pundit or a reporter imo. He's a sports columnist. As is, I'm guessing, the author of the blog.

By definition, they should only stick to the facts and subjective opinions shouldn't be included. Certainly where we are in todays media, that isn't very likely to be found, especially in sports.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 03:40 PM
By definition, they should only stick to the facts and subjective opinions shouldn't be included. Certainly where we are in todays media, that isn't very likely to be found, especially in sports.
Except that isn't true. I've already pointed out that the definition you provided doesn't say that. Now does it?

Are you implying that there's a difference between now and 20, 30, or 40+ years ago? There have always been journalists, newspapers, magazines, etc where opinions were voiced. The only difference is the addition of different mediums like the internet and cable tv.

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 03:44 PM
Except that isn't true. I've already pointed out that the definition you provided doesn't say that. Now does it?

Are you implying that there's a difference between now and 20, 30, or 40+ years ago? There have always been journalists, newspapers, magazines, etc where opinions were voiced. The only difference is the internet.

I absolutely believe there is a giant difference between now and 20-30-40 years ago. Take a beat writer for example. 20 years ago he had to come up with 2 articles per day. A game article about what happened in the game and some quotes after the game and then maybe a feature article on something else about the team. Now he has to still do that, but post 4 times a day on his blog as well with information, post line ups, interact with readers, post on twitter 10 times a day and given where the newspaper business is, add another 3-4 articles per week that used to be 'editorials' written by someone else who no longer has a job because newspapers aren't making any money so people are now doubling up on jobs to keep money in the bank.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 04:03 PM
I absolutely believe there is a giant difference between now and 20-30-40 years ago. Take a beat writer for example. 20 years ago he had to come up with 2 articles per day. A game article about what happened in the game and some quotes after the game and then maybe a feature article on something else about the team. Now he has to still do that, but post 4 times a day on his blog as well with information, post line ups, interact with readers, post on twitter 10 times a day and given where the newspaper business is, add another 3-4 articles per week that used to be 'editorials' written by someone else who no longer has a job because newspapers aren't making any money so people are now doubling up on jobs to keep money in the bank.
I'm confused Doug. Don't all of those difference have to do with the advent of things like the internet?

You said:
"By definition, they should only stick to the facts and subjective opinions shouldn't be included. Certainly where we are in todays media, that isn't very likely to be found, especially in sports."

Now, and again I'm just curious, are you implying that subjective opinions weren't included years ago?

And you didn't reply to this:
"Except that isn't true. I've already pointed out that the definition you provided doesn't say that. Now does it? "

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 04:12 PM
I'm confused Doug. Don't all of those difference have to do with the advent of things like the internet?

You said:
"By definition, they should only stick to the facts and subjective opinions shouldn't be included. Certainly where we are in todays media, that isn't very likely to be found, especially in sports."

Now, and again I'm just curious, are you implying that subjective opinions weren't included years ago?

And you didn't reply to this:
"Except that isn't true. I've already pointed out that the definition you provided doesn't say that. Now does it? "

I am suggesting that there were different people who provided opinions from the ones who provided the facts.

Brutus
06-24-2010, 04:15 PM
I am suggesting that there were different people who provided opinions from the ones who provided the facts.

That's absolutely not true. Take Walter Cronkite for example. He was well known for having his own opinion portion of his broadcast.

Journalists have ALWAYS voiced an opinion. As I said previously, the only difference is that it used to clearly differentiate the opinions by expressing them as editorials or opinion.

bucksfan2
06-24-2010, 04:16 PM
Doug there are all different kind of journalists. There are guys who are columnists, guys who are beat writers, guys who are reporters, guys who are opinion writers, and some guys all rolled into one. Plenty of guys write articles that I do not agree with. That doesn't mean they don't have journalistic integrity.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 04:21 PM
By definition, they should only stick to the facts and subjective opinions shouldn't be included. Certainly where we are in todays media, that isn't very likely to be found, especially in sports.


Except that isn't true. I've already pointed out that the definition you provided doesn't say that. Now does it?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' will work.

dougdirt
06-24-2010, 04:22 PM
A simple 'yes' or 'no' will work.

You didn't point it out at all. If the definition is recording the facts, then an opinion simply can't be part of it, because an opinion isn't factual.

It doesn't matter though. The original point remains.... simply because you have a job writing for a newspaper doesn't mean your opinion is right (doesn't mean its wrong either). Just that we often find in sports guys who can write well, but aren't actually good at telling us the value of much of the sport they cover.

redsfandan
06-24-2010, 04:28 PM
You didn't point it out at all. If the definition is recording the facts, then an opinion simply can't be part of it, because an opinion isn't factual.

That's funny, I thought I did.

Nice try Doug. Yes, the definition you provided says that a journalist is "a person who keeps a journal, diary, or other record of daily events". It doesn't say that they will always stick to only the facts and it doesn't say that subjective opinions can't be included.
If the definition was recording the facts then it wouldn't have been the definition you supplied. ;)

lidspinner
06-24-2010, 08:17 PM
you guys are too funny

Kingspoint
06-24-2010, 11:22 PM
I know Dave personally. He's been a credentialed member of the media for at least 7 years covering Ohio State football (and sometimes basketball). He's good at what he does and not just some hack. I definitely do not agree with him on this, but he's legit.

That's good to know. I'll check out the site sometime for some of his other stuff.

Kingspoint
06-24-2010, 11:23 PM
Simply because one covers a sport does not make them knowledgeable about the sport or a scout/talent evaluator either. I know that I have had my fair share of disagreements and probably burned a bridge or two over it by having discussions about baseball players in press boxes. Actually had one guy in my face pointing his finger at me over a disagreement about a player. Just because you got a degree as a journalist doesn't mean you know anything about what you are covering. It means you are likely qualified to put together a story on what you witnessed.

That is so true.

Kingspoint
06-24-2010, 11:31 PM
I don't disagree with anything you said, but everyone is entitled to opinion and everyone expresses them. Social media has obviously changed journalism and blurred the lines between journalism and one's own personal opinions.



When I was in broadcasting you couldn't even be considered for a job unless you had perfect, and I mean perfect pronunciation of the English language. That all changed with EEO. At first only minorities with perfect English pronunciation could be hired, but we couldn't find enough of them. So, the standards had to drop, until eventually, people with lisps, bad accents, people who slur their words, and just plain people with poor pronunciation would be considered and be given the job (most of the time over people who were more qualified, but that's another topic).

Along with the loosening up of the qualifications for Broadcast Journalists came the loosening up of Print Journalists, Photo Journalists, and all other types of Journalists. But, what's never changed is Sports Journalists. Sports Journalists always have and always will be giving their opinions about what they're covering. It's the nature of the job.

Scrap Irony
06-25-2010, 02:41 AM
Wow. Just. Wow.

Who knew the EEO (Equal Employment Opportunity) and "them" (meaning non-white males) were responsible for poor journalism?

This is quite possibly the most reprehensible post I have ever read on Redszone.

Kingspoint
06-25-2010, 12:43 PM
Wow. Just. Wow.

Who knew the EEO (Equal Employment Opportunity) and "them" (meaning non-white males) were responsible for poor journalism?

This is quite possibly the most reprehensible post I have ever read on Redszone.


Only you would try to turn something so innocent into a race thing.

Now, that's disgusting.

Since it has to be explained to you, "them" referred to people eligible for EEO who had excellent pronunciation of the English language. It didn't refer to anything you are trying so desperately to infer. How insulting can you be to assume that?

camisadelgolf
06-25-2010, 12:54 PM
This thread will be shutting down in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . 2 . . .

Scrap Irony
06-25-2010, 01:38 PM
Only you would try to turn something so innocent into a race thing.

Now, that's disgusting.

Since it has to be explained to you, "them" referred to people eligible for EEO who had excellent pronunciation of the English language. It didn't refer to anything you are trying so desperately to infer. How insulting can you be to assume that?

But "you" couldn't find enough of "them", so the standards had to be lowered. And there were others (re, white men) who were capable but couldn't do the job because of EEO. So journalism became a lesser thing.

You cannot read that another way.

Boss-Hog
06-25-2010, 05:11 PM
Let's get this thread back on topic, please.

gilpdawg
06-28-2010, 10:19 AM
Ok, I'll turn this thing around. :)

Fangraphs had a blurb on Yonder recently if anybody missed it.


Yonder Alonso | 1B/LF | Cincinnati Reds | Age 23 | AA/AAA
.245 AVG / .324 OBP / .368 SLG | 29 BB / 44 K | 293 PA

In my series on first-round picks, it was definitely clear that by the time Double-A rolls around, the good players usually separate themselves from the busts. This doesn't bode well for Alonso, who has never posted an ISO above .194 at any level. Given his defensive limitations, his highly regarded prospect status is waning. He's one I wouldn't be surprised to see the Reds trade in a deadline deal.

dougdirt
06-28-2010, 01:56 PM
No mention of the injury leaves a big question mark in that article....

RedsManRick
06-28-2010, 02:40 PM
No mention of the injury leaves a big question mark in that article....

I posted...


Regarding Alonso, a few things to consider:

1) He was never expected to have elite power, more of a high AVG/OBP, Youkilis type. Youkilis never really slugged in the minors and only broke .200 ISO in his age 29 season.
2) He broke a hamate bone June of last year, an injury which tends to rob people of power for a year.
3) Heís been playing some LF in addition 1B, which canít be helping any.

That said, with Votto entrenched at 1B and Alonso not taking particularly well to LF, I would not be the least disappointed if he was part of a package which landed the Reds an impact player for the 2nd half.

bucksfan2
06-28-2010, 03:03 PM
No mention of the injury leaves a big question mark in that article....

At some point the excuses need to stop for Yonder and he needs to produce. Im not saying that injuries haven't played a roll in his lackluster minor league career, but he needs to start producing. He was billed as a polished college bat when he was drafted and the Reds have yet to see that.

dougdirt
06-28-2010, 03:33 PM
At some point the excuses need to stop for Yonder and he needs to produce. Im not saying that injuries haven't played a roll in his lackluster minor league career, but he needs to start producing. He was billed as a polished college bat when he was drafted and the Reds have yet to see that.

He has played 2.5 months at 100% since being drafted (not counting the Hawaiian Winter League). Not sure that is an excuse. The thing that is concerning, and to me its the only thing thats concerning, is his plate discipline in AAA taking a poor turn.

GIDP
06-28-2010, 03:35 PM
At some point the excuses need to stop for Yonder and he needs to produce. Im not saying that injuries haven't played a roll in his lackluster minor league career, but he needs to start producing. He was billed as a polished college bat when he was drafted and the Reds have yet to see that.

Maybe the problem isn't that there are excuses its that people who dont understand injuries just want to push them off and deny they actually do effect players. I mean its not like people are just making up injuries...

GOYA
06-28-2010, 06:56 PM
The thing that is concerning, and to me its the only thing thats concerning, is his plate discipline in AAA taking a poor turn.

My guess is that it's purely frustration. I think he really belongs in AA right now, along with Frazier.

TheBigLebowski
06-29-2010, 09:14 AM
Gordon Beckham, anyone?

Waaaay to early to write off Alonso but, as others have said, he was supposed to be a polished, college-experienced bat and he has not produced. Further, there were other players (like the aforementioned Beckham) who were available that we passed on to take this guy...players who would have filled a more immediate need. If the strategy in taking him was to trade him once we were in contention, that strat is blowing up in our faces with every drop in percentage his batting average absorbs. Heck, if memory serves, we also passed on a very similar player who has moved right through his system and into the bigs - Justin Smoak.

I wanted Beckham with that pick and I freely admit that, but I will also admit I was pretty sure Alonso was a sure-fire ML 1B with plus power. Thus far, I think we all need to be concerned that YA is not the pure hitter we all thought he was, and I think the plans to try to make Joey Votto a left fielder ought to be put on hold.

GIDP
06-29-2010, 09:22 AM
Not trrying to sound insulting but did you even look up what Beckham is doing in Chicago? I mean if you are going to name drop pick someone who is actually tearing it up in the majors. Justin Smoak isnt doing all that well either btw.

dougdirt
06-29-2010, 09:57 AM
Not trrying to sound insulting but did you even look up what Beckham is doing in Chicago? I mean if you are going to name drop pick someone who is actually tearing it up in the majors. Justin Smoak isnt doing all that well either btw.

Yeah, those three were among the 'elite' bats of that draft. So far, they have all struggled to live up to that.

TheBigLebowski
06-29-2010, 12:11 PM
Not trrying to sound insulting but did you even look up what Beckham is doing in Chicago? I mean if you are going to name drop pick someone who is actually tearing it up in the majors. Justin Smoak isnt doing all that well either btw.

Neither Beckham nor Smoak are tearing things up on the ML level, although Beckham did quite well last year.

Point is, these guys are in the majors and Alonso is nowhere near there and his ETA is well yet to be determined.

I am not trying to sound panicky but it might be time for us to re-evaluate the value of this pick.

GIDP
06-29-2010, 12:30 PM
Neither Beckham nor Smoak are tearing things up on the ML level, although Beckham did quite well last year.

Point is, these guys are in the majors and Alonso is nowhere near there and his ETA is well yet to be determined.

I am not trying to sound panicky but it might be time for us to re-evaluate the value of this pick.

I understand that they are at the major league level, but they also werent injured in the minors or blocked by a MVP caliber positon player. Yonder has been a let down for a few reasons, some he cant control, but those other guys havent really dont enough to justify comparing them like its night and day.

Ghosts of 1990
06-29-2010, 03:16 PM
I knew there was a reason why I've never read that blog.

exactly.

The guys he mentions in the post doing 'big' things in the big leagues are all struggling mightily. He couldn't have picked worse examples.

He doesn't know his stuff.

Blitz Dorsey
06-30-2010, 02:21 PM
The more days that pass, the more Yonder Alonso looks like a complete bust. Oh well, at least we have our 1B of the future. Hopefully he can at least hit relatively well at the Triple-A level so he has some trade value. Right now, I would imagine he has close to zero trade value.

redsfandan
06-30-2010, 03:50 PM
The more days that pass, the more Yonder Alonso looks like a complete bust. Oh well, at least we have our 1B of the future. Hopefully he can at least hit relatively well at the Triple-A level so he has some trade value. Right now, I would imagine he has close to zero trade value.Like Doug pointed out, the guy has only played in the minors healthy for less than 3 months. I doubt his trade value is zero but he could be a nice buy low target for other teams in trade talks.

Kingspoint
06-30-2010, 04:02 PM
I doubt his trade value is zero but he could be a nice buy low target for other teams in trade talks.

Other G.M.'s would love to "steal" him from the REDS right now.

GIDP
06-30-2010, 06:42 PM
Ive seen basically everyone on the Reds current roster called a bust, I've seen most the minor leagues called bust.

I think I'll stick to my own opinions on the topic.

scott91575
07-01-2010, 06:27 AM
Ive seen basically everyone on the Reds current roster called a bust, I've seen most the minor leagues called bust.

I think I'll stick to my own opinions on the topic.

That is the way it goes with most fans. Have a good couple of months, you are the next Willie Mays. Have a couple of bad months, and you are a bum. People wanted to shoot Bruce in April, willing to waive Votto when he has mental issues, think Chapman will have a 0 ERA in the majors, and thought the Rolen trade was stupid because EE will occasionally get hot yet for the most part is in no way a MLB player.

As for Alonso, I think next year people will start to see his potential. It takes about 2 years for a college player to see a good transition to the major or the AAA level. He is a little over 1 year right now in actual time on the field.

OesterPoster
07-01-2010, 08:22 AM
I can't find the stats, but I'm curious if Alonso is playing more at 1b now or the outfield? I've checked a few boxes, and looks like he's still doing both? I can't find splits for his 1b vs. OF hitting stats. Anyone able to find that without looking at every single box score?

Just a theory, but maybe taking on the challenge of a new position has affected his bat this year?

Also, Alonso is still one of the youngest guys on the AAA team. Just Chapman and Francisco are younger...so it sure seems premature to just write the guy off already.

dougdirt
07-01-2010, 01:28 PM
I can't find the stats, but I'm curious if Alonso is playing more at 1b now or the outfield? I've checked a few boxes, and looks like he's still doing both? I can't find splits for his 1b vs. OF hitting stats. Anyone able to find that without looking at every single box score?

Just a theory, but maybe taking on the challenge of a new position has affected his bat this year?

Also, Alonso is still one of the youngest guys on the AAA team. Just Chapman and Francisco are younger...so it sure seems premature to just write the guy off already.

Alonso, the last few weeks has only played LF once or twice. But yeah, for the season he has played about 30-40% in LF.

OesterPoster
07-01-2010, 02:05 PM
Found what I was looking for at minorleaguesplits.com. Not much difference between his ABs as an OF vs. 1b...but I found a couple things which stick out. First of all, 170 ABs as a 1b and 110 as an OF, so the sample size is fairly close.

As 1b, slash of .259/.321/.371
As OF, slash of .227/.320/.355

Now for the oddity...

As 1b, GB% of 45.3 and LD% of 21.2.
As OF, GB% of 54.7 and LD% of 9.5.

Sure seems to me that he's making more solid contact when he's playing 1st. Maybe a coincidence or maybe he's thinking more about hitting and less about other things.

The higher LD% also probably explains the higher BABIP while playing 1st. His BABIP at 1st is 69 points higher than his OF average.

WebScorpion
07-01-2010, 02:49 PM
I think his rise in Line Drive Percentage as a first baseman is more related to the timing than the position. Most of his 1B at bats have been later in the season and I think he's progressing, although slowly. The rise in LD% is certainly a good sign. I look for him to have a strong August to finish the season and hopefully it will be enough to earn him a September call-up. It would be nice to have another lefty power bat off the bench to finish our drive to the playoffs and maybe rest Joey a bit before the playoffs begin. ;)

As far as a bust...I agree with the folks who say it's way too early for that kind of talk.

Blitz Dorsey
07-01-2010, 02:53 PM
Found what I was looking for at minorleaguesplits.com. Not much difference between his ABs as an OF vs. 1b...but I found a couple things which stick out. First of all, 170 ABs as a 1b and 110 as an OF, so the sample size is fairly close.

As 1b, slash of .259/.321/.371
As OF, slash of .227/.320/.355

Now for the oddity...

As 1b, GB% of 45.3 and LD% of 21.2.
As OF, GB% of 54.7 and LD% of 9.5.

Sure seems to me that he's making more solid contact when he's playing 1st. Maybe a coincidence or maybe he's thinking more about hitting and less about other things.

The higher LD% also probably explains the higher BABIP while playing 1st. His BABIP at 1st is 69 points higher than his OF average.

So, you are saying he is weak mentally and his defense affects his offense? And not even how well he is playing defensively, but just the position he is playing defensively? That is a stretch. The excuses for Yonder continue to flow. I just want to see him hit AAA pitching well enough so he has some legit trade value.

OesterPoster
07-01-2010, 02:56 PM
So, you are saying he is weak mentally and his defense affects his offense? And not even how well he is playing defensively, but just the position he is playing defensively? That is a stretch. The excuses for Yonder continue to flow. I just want to see him hit AAA pitching well enough so he has some legit trade value.

Did I say that? I merely postulated and asked if it was coincidence or more to it.

Blitz Dorsey
07-01-2010, 02:58 PM
Did I say that? I merely postulated and asked if it was coincidence or more to it.

No, you didn't say that. I was asking (sarcastically) if that is the point you were trying to make with all of that data.

Just having some fun. More fun that I am with watching Alonso's career develop. BTW, love your moniker.

TRF
07-01-2010, 09:46 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the timetable for his power to return after the hamate injury was beginning to mid july.

I'll reserve judgement until after the season. I do think health is a skill, but his injuries thus far aren't ones likely to be chronic.

dougdirt
07-01-2010, 10:03 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the timetable for his power to return after the hamate injury was beginning to mid july.

I'll reserve judgement until after the season. I do think health is a skill, but his injuries thus far aren't ones likely to be chronic.

Generally its a year after the injury has healed. Look for August.

TRF
07-01-2010, 10:36 PM
here is the thing. Alonso doesn't have to be a bust in order for the pick to be one. and vice versa. If he brings value in a trade, he isn't a bust pick. IF he develops late, and is gomes like in LF, that may have value. He'll likely never have Votto's stick, and for the record, and i stated this last year, Votoo is a Pujols level bat until he isn't. Alonso isn't and he won't supplant Votto at 1B.

Thank god all the ridiculous Votto to LF talk has dried up.

bucksfan2
07-02-2010, 11:57 AM
here is the thing. Alonso doesn't have to be a bust in order for the pick to be one. and vice versa. If he brings value in a trade, he isn't a bust pick. IF he develops late, and is gomes like in LF, that may have value. He'll likely never have Votto's stick, and for the record, and i stated this last year, Votoo is a Pujols level bat until he isn't. Alonso isn't and he won't supplant Votto at 1B.

Thank god all the ridiculous Votto to LF talk has dried up.

Not so ridiculous if the Reds signed Adrian Gonzales to play 1b!

But year I agree with you. I am glad all the talk about Alonso supplanting Votto at 1b is over with.

camisadelgolf
08-10-2010, 12:30 AM
bump

By the way, 60% of 2008 first rounders are still playing in AA or lower. For those who say Alonso's a bust, does that mean at least 60% of the other first rounders are busts, too? Buster Posey is clearly the best player from that round, but who else has done anything worth mentioning? Brian Matusz? This year, he has the second-highest WAR out of all of them.

zjr1717
08-10-2010, 03:37 AM
bump

By the way, 60% of 2008 first rounders are still playing in AA or lower. For those who say Alonso's a bust, does that mean at least 60% of the other first rounders are busts, too? Buster Posey is clearly the best player from that round, but who else has done anything worth mentioning? Brian Matusz? This year, he has the second-highest WAR out of all of them.

Alonso was a solid pick at that point and he's looked very good lately, and he's shown patience at the plate all the way through. Your right, look at all the guys from that class who are struggling. Even the #1 overall pick has struggled some coming out of the gate.

lollipopcurve
08-10-2010, 08:46 AM
Alonso is slowly but surely establishing himself as a solid hitting prospect, as advertised when he was drafted. The injury clearly held him back. I hope they revisit the scenario of playing him in LF if he's still around next spring training. He's going to be a high OBP guy with potentially some solid power, especially with the short LF porch at GAB.

Pony Boy
08-10-2010, 04:33 PM
bump

By the way, 60% of 2008 first rounders are still playing in AA or lower. For those who say Alonso's a bust, does that mean at least 60% of the other first rounders are busts, too? Buster Posey is clearly the best player from that round, but who else has done anything worth mentioning? Brian Matusz? This year, he has the second-highest WAR out of all of them.

But of that 60% how many were college players?

dougdirt
08-10-2010, 04:46 PM
But of that 60% how many were college players?

Not as many, but its pretty simple. Alonso is performing better than most.

zjr1717
08-10-2010, 05:50 PM
But of that 60% how many were college players?

I was about to ask that as well, but when i looked, the high school guys from that draft who have been very successful so far are already in AA for the large part, for example Eric Hosmer.

camisadelgolf
08-10-2010, 06:03 PM
But of that 60% how many were college players?
Q. How many of the high schoolers have played above AA?























































A. Zero. In fact, less than a third of them have even seen AA. So far, Yonder Alonso is easily outperforming the majority of first round picks.