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OnBaseMachine
06-21-2010, 10:48 PM
From Tim Brown's twitter:

Gary Matthews Jr. has agreed to terms on a minor-league deal with the Reds.

http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo

Oh boy.

RedEye
06-21-2010, 10:49 PM
If he takes AB's away from Heisey or Stubbs, this is a god awful move. If he's just there as insurance, it might not be so bad.

nemesis
06-21-2010, 10:50 PM
I just threw up a little.

westofyou
06-21-2010, 10:50 PM
I saw this coming the day he was dealt east.

Vince Coleman was a Red for 4 minutes once, we survived.

reds44
06-21-2010, 10:51 PM
Can he be any worse than Nix?

Maybe he'll find HGH again...

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2010, 10:53 PM
If Matthews Jr. plays one game with the Reds it will be one too many. He's an awful defender in CF now and he can't hit.

Reds Fanatic
06-21-2010, 10:54 PM
I don't really see any point to this move. I wouldn't play him over any OF they already have.

Cedric
06-21-2010, 10:56 PM
This was incredibly predictable.

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2010, 11:02 PM
Fay says it's not official yet:

#Reds are talking to Gary Matthews Jr. Deal is not done. It will probably get done in the next fews days. A minor-league deal.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

RedLegSuperStar
06-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Yuck.. I'd rather gave up fodder for Conor Jackson

Chip R
06-21-2010, 11:15 PM
Yuck.. I'd rather gave up fodder for Conor Jackson

Jackson is not a crafty veteran and doesn't have a father who played when Dusty played and had a cool nickname like "The Sarge".

edabbs44
06-21-2010, 11:17 PM
Jackson is not a crafty veteran and doesn't have a father who played when Dusty played and had a cool nickname like "The Sarge".

That is a cool nickname.

Will M
06-21-2010, 11:21 PM
I wonder if this is simply some insurance if/when Heisey gets dealt. the Reds have two young centerfielders & lots of problems elsewhere. dealing one makes sense. maybe Walt simply wants someone else who can play CF in case he trades Heisey then Stubbs goes down.

Chip R
06-21-2010, 11:22 PM
That is a cool nickname.

I've always called GMJ, "The Private."

Tom Servo
06-21-2010, 11:22 PM
YouTube - FACE PALM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZxzJGgox_E&feature=related)

wally post
06-21-2010, 11:23 PM
I wonder if this is simply some insurance if/when Heisey gets dealt. the Reds have two young centerfielders & lots of problems elsewhere. dealing one makes sense. maybe Walt simply wants someone else who can play CF in case he trades Heisey then Stubbs goes down.

Yes, my first thought as well (once I got over the gag response), but couldn't it be Stubbs in a slobber-knocker deal?

mth123
06-21-2010, 11:24 PM
I wonder if this is simply some insurance if/when Heisey gets dealt. the Reds have two young centerfielders & lots of problems elsewhere. dealing one makes sense. maybe Walt simply wants someone else who can play CF in case he trades Heisey then Stubbs goes down.

I wonder that myself. Taking it another step, maybe Bruce is sitting while they showcase Heisey a bit. Probably not, but I don't see any other reason to sign Mathews.

HokieRed
06-21-2010, 11:24 PM
What happened to Chris D. as CF insurance?

edabbs44
06-21-2010, 11:25 PM
I wonder if this is simply some insurance if/when Heisey gets dealt. the Reds have two young centerfielders & lots of problems elsewhere. dealing one makes sense. maybe Walt simply wants someone else who can play CF in case he trades Heisey then Stubbs goes down.

And maybe a guy who can play vs LHPs and spell Bruce against tough lefties.

Not to say that he would be any better, but maybe they are sick of playing Cairo when they want to rest Bruce.

KronoRed
06-21-2010, 11:26 PM
Lets hope he does well for Louisville.

Chip R
06-21-2010, 11:27 PM
Lets hope he does well for Louisville.

But not too well.

RedLegSuperStar
06-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Lets hope he does well for Louisville.

Chris Burke is Louisville's starting CF..

RedsManRick
06-21-2010, 11:35 PM
This makes me sad. Just keep him out of Dusty's hands please.

KoryMac5
06-21-2010, 11:39 PM
The big reason Mathews Jr. was let go by the Mets was because he couldn't come off the bench and pinch hit. I don't get the reasoning behind this deal as he is not going to play well enough to displace Stubbs or Heisey. Plus he can't pinch hit for the club either. Maybe the Reds signed him to take the whipping boy heat off of Miggy.

Raisor
06-21-2010, 11:41 PM
The problem with signing the Gary Matthewses of the world is, after the signing, you have Gary Matthews around.

I'll break it down for the stat minded people (and you know who you are)

Having Gary Matthews < Not having Gary Matthews.

Simple huh?

Kc61
06-21-2010, 11:41 PM
Maybe Matthews provides depth in case of injury or an unanticipated trade.

VR
06-21-2010, 11:47 PM
One of the most inflated contracts ever given in Major league baseball.

The guy is horrible on many levels....and even his roid years weren't great shakes.

Let's hope Dusty's debt to Sarge was a small one, and they are now even.

Spring~Fields
06-21-2010, 11:48 PM
This makes me sad. Just keep him out of Dusty's hands please.

He fits right in with the young and the youth movement. ;)



Reds, Matthews talking
Posted by jfay June 21st, 2010, 10:09 pm
The Reds are talking to Gary Matthews Jr. about a minor league deal.
“It’s not done yet,” assistant GM Bob Miller said. “It will probably get done.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/

LoganBuck
06-21-2010, 11:52 PM
Maybe Matthews provides depth in case of injury or an unanticipated trade.

I would rather see Yonder Alonso and Devin Mesoraco playing centerfield.



Seriously

VR
06-21-2010, 11:55 PM
I would rather see Yonder Alonso and Devin Mesoraco playing centerfield.



Seriously

Well said, Logan, well said.

KronoRed
06-21-2010, 11:56 PM
I'd rather the Reds give his dad a shot first.

Spring~Fields
06-22-2010, 12:01 AM
Gary Nathaniel Matthews Jr.
Age 35

2003 -- .248 .314 .361 .675
2004 Tex .275 .350 .461 .811
2005 Tex .255 .320 .436 .756
2006 Tex .313 .371 .495 .866
2007 LAA .252 .323 .419 .742
2008 LAA .242 .319 .357 .676
2009 LAA .250 .336 .361 .697
2010 NYM .190 .266 .241 .507

HokieRed
06-22-2010, 12:08 AM
I would rather see Yonder Alonso and Devin Mesoraco playing centerfield.



Seriously

I'd certainly rather see Chris Burke.

fearofpopvol1
06-22-2010, 01:51 AM
I really thought moves like these were limited to the "lost decade" for the Reds. I guess not.

I agree with RMR, please keep him away from Dusty. He is the quintessential veteran that Dusty salivates over.

Slyder
06-22-2010, 01:54 AM
From Tim Brown's twitter:

Gary Matthews Jr. has agreed to terms on a minor-league deal with the Reds.

http://twitter.com/TBrownYahoo

Oh boy.

Why? All he will do is give Dusty an opportunity to revert back to Duhhhsty.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 02:43 AM
This could be one of those friend of a friend thing, giving Mathews a minor league look-see as a favor to his Dad. (Old school dudes have to dude up with other dudes. Or something.)

Or... (you may want to wear your tin foil hat at this point)

I'm guessing this is a precursor to a deal wherein one of the CF guys is dealt. Since Baker doesn't like Nix in CF and Dickerson is still on the shelf, Jocketty is grabbing the extra fifth OF. Odd, though, that Jocketty is willing to deal someone from the major league roster. That happens rarely with him historically.

So, who needs a CF and is already out of it and willing to trade pitching?

Cleveland.

Sure, they're revuilding for next year and Grady Sizemore will be there next season, but he's been injured two years in a row and hasn't exactly covered himself with laurels after signing that huge contract. So a Heisey or a Stubbs would make mucho sense.

Too, the Indians could use a couple more bats, especially in LF (next season, Kearns will be asking for more than Cleveland will want to pay), 1B (Branyan is a FA after 2010), or 3B (Jhonny Peralta continues to man the hot corner in Cleveland and be... adequate, but expensive).

Enter Alonso and Francisco. Both would begin next season in C-Town and combine with Max Ramirez, Matt LaPorta, and the Stubbs/ Heisey loser to form a fairly interesting young team with plus power. Add in Sizemore and Choo's offense and Cabrera's glove and you might have a decent team if everything breaks right.

If the Reds also drop in a BOR prospect, a la Wood or Maloney, and a AAA bullpen arm (Del Rosario or Ondrusek or Herrera, perhaps) that's a deal Cleveland could sell to their fans. (All four of them.) A nearly there future with bright, new, inexpensive players in place of more established, expensive ones.

Who could Cincinnati grab?

I'm guessing not only would Carmona be available for said deal (Francisco, Alonso, Maloney/ Wood, plus Del Rosario/ Ondrusek/ Herrera, and Stubbs/ Heisey), so would Kerry Wood. (Eminently available, I would imagine.) If I were the Indian GM, I'd demand Wood be a part of the deal to the Reds with Carmona.

Jocketty, fed up with his poor bullpen play (especially with Codero's struggles) adds another arm to Baker's pen. As a Red fan, I might be willing to live with a couple games from Mathews if they were to add Carmona. (And, to a much lesser extent, Wood.)

919191
06-22-2010, 02:44 AM
Jackson is not a crafty veteran and doesn't have a father who played when Dusty played and had a cool nickname like "The Sarge".

I am tempted to use Chip's quote as my sig.:):)

TheNext44
06-22-2010, 02:45 AM
I have a feeling this has more to do with Dusty doing a favor for his Dad than anything else.

If there was any real intention of using him at the major league level, they would have signed him to a major league deal and sent down Nix. Unless he tears it up in Louisville, I see little chance he makes it to the bigs before the rosters expand.

Ron Madden
06-22-2010, 05:04 AM
Maybe Matthews provides depth in case of injury or an unanticipated trade.

No he doesn't.

Ron Madden
06-22-2010, 05:12 AM
GOOD GOD!!!

I think if the Reds were to resign Mike Stanton and Willy Taveras some members of RedsZone would approve and try to justify those moves. :(

Degenerate39
06-22-2010, 07:47 AM
This is one random move... Sure fixes the pitching staff!

CarolinaRedleg
06-22-2010, 07:54 AM
This is one random move... Sure fixes the pitching staff!

I was about to ask if he can come out of the bullpen :cool:

hebroncougar
06-22-2010, 08:57 AM
This could be one of those friend of a friend thing, giving Mathews a minor league look-see as a favor to his Dad. (Old school dudes have to dude up with other dudes. Or something.)

Or... (you may want to wear your tin foil hat at this point)

I'm guessing this is a precursor to a deal wherein one of the CF guys is dealt. Since Baker doesn't like Nix in CF and Dickerson is still on the shelf, Jocketty is grabbing the extra fifth OF. Odd, though, that Jocketty is willing to deal someone from the major league roster. That happens rarely with him historically.

So, who needs a CF and is already out of it and willing to trade pitching?

Cleveland.

Sure, they're revuilding for next year and Grady Sizemore will be there next season, but he's been injured two years in a row and hasn't exactly covered himself with laurels after signing that huge contract. So a Heisey or a Stubbs would make mucho sense.

Too, the Indians could use a couple more bats, especially in LF (next season, Kearns will be asking for more than Cleveland will want to pay), 1B (Branyan is a FA after 2010), or 3B (Jhonny Peralta continues to man the hot corner in Cleveland and be... adequate, but expensive).

Enter Alonso and Francisco. Both would begin next season in C-Town and combine with Max Ramirez, Matt LaPorta, and the Stubbs/ Heisey loser to form a fairly interesting young team with plus power. Add in Sizemore and Choo's offense and Cabrera's glove and you might have a decent team if everything breaks right.

If the Reds also drop in a BOR prospect, a la Wood or Maloney, and a AAA bullpen arm (Del Rosario or Ondrusek or Herrera, perhaps) that's a deal Cleveland could sell to their fans. (All four of them.) A nearly there future with bright, new, inexpensive players in place of more established, expensive ones.

Who could Cincinnati grab?

I'm guessing not only would Carmona be available for said deal (Francisco, Alonso, Maloney/ Wood, plus Del Rosario/ Ondrusek/ Herrera, and Stubbs/ Heisey), so would Kerry Wood. (Eminently available, I would imagine.) If I were the Indian GM, I'd demand Wood be a part of the deal to the Reds with Carmona.

Jocketty, fed up with his poor bullpen play (especially with Codero's struggles) adds another arm to Baker's pen. As a Red fan, I might be willing to live with a couple games from Mathews if they were to add Carmona. (And, to a much lesser extent, Wood.)

If the Reds are giving up that much, it'd better be for a pitcher with the last name of Lee, and include an extension. Carmona and Wood should not demand anywhere near that on the trade market.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 09:21 AM
GOOD GOD!!!

I think if the Reds were to resign Mike Stanton and Willy Taveras some members of RedsZone would approve and try to justify those moves. :(

If anything, this regime has earned our trust at this point. I think these guys know what they are doing.

lollipopcurve
06-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Normally I don't get worked up over a minor league deal. But this one has me a little uneasy.

HokieRed
06-22-2010, 09:52 AM
Normally I don't get worked up over a minor league deal. But this one has me a little uneasy.

Me, too, and primarily because it looks like a reversion to Dusty making personnel decisions, something I thought had passed firmly and finally to Walt alone in the Rolen trade. Not a good omen, in my view.

CarolinaRedleg
06-22-2010, 09:56 AM
I think I'd rather have Dave Matthews at this point in their respective careers.

traderumor
06-22-2010, 10:02 AM
I'm just trying to figure out why its sticky worthy, esp. when he's not even signed and its a minor league deal. Little priming the pump to get folks stirred up?

Chip R
06-22-2010, 10:02 AM
I am tempted to use Chip's quote as my sig.:):)


Be my guest.

Chip R
06-22-2010, 10:07 AM
I'm just trying to figure out why its sticky worthy, esp. when he's not even signed and its a minor league deal. Little priming the pump to get folks stirred up?


Stickies are generally used for breaking news threads. We sticky the threads because not everyone sees it and they start their own thread. So instead of having to merge several threads together, we just post in the one. It's not about importance.

TRF
06-22-2010, 10:08 AM
Dave Matthews has an annoying voice, like a rusty nail on a chalkboard.

My feelings about GMJ rival my feelings about WT. So I will leave it there. I'll leave the real ranting If i hear he's donning a Reds uniform

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 10:11 AM
GOOD GOD!!!

I think if the Reds were to resign Mike Stanton and Willy Taveras some members of RedsZone would approve and try to justify those moves. :(

Who? No one on this thread has said they like the deal. The closest anyone has come is edabbs, but even that wasn't exactly a glowing recommendation of the player, only trust for the front office. (Which, in the case of Jocketty, has been earned.)

But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good diatribe against some people, eh?

lollipopcurve
06-22-2010, 10:15 AM
I'll leave the real ranting If i hear he's donning a Reds uniform

Be prepared for that. So long as he's a 5th OF, I'll survive. I'm uneasy about him getting real playing time in CF.

Always Red
06-22-2010, 10:47 AM
It's up to Walt to keep GMJ out of Dusty's hands.

I trust Walt; he knows what he's doing.

I'd rather take a shot at EE in the OF than GMJ, to be honest. (FWIW, I was looking at a Blue Jays site last night, and they refer to Edwin as E5. LMAO!)

TRF
06-22-2010, 10:49 AM
OK wait. I wasn't going to post anymore, but this killed me. Jocketty signed WT, brought back Mike Lincoln and now Gary Matthews Jr. He's been lauded for a defensively challenged SS with a weak bat and the surprising resurgence of Scott Rolen. These same posters rip Wayne Krivsky, whose positive impact still outweighs Jocketty's. (Arroyo, BP, even Stubbs to a degree.)

I do not get this. The man gets a pass on every piss poor move he makes because of his rep. I get it. The Rolen trade was fantastic. But as good as he has been, he can't erase the stain of a season of Willy Taveras.

So instead of just trusting the FO on moves they make, because of who is in the FO, maybe we should take each transaction as it comes and judge the overall body of work within THIS organization. Rolen has been uber fantastic. Cabrera was exactly what I thought he was, but perhaps he's had an impact in the clubhouse. GMJ is a dreadful signing if true, and serves no purpose. We can go back a year to see more good and bad signings. My issue is Walt seems to gloss over the weaknesses. If Scott Rolen were a 2B, he still would have traded for him. It seems 3B was fixed by accident, but there is no heir apparent in the system. There is no SS in the system for next year either. MAYBE Cozart. maybe. LF? Heisey? but nobody is kicking down the door.

It seems to me like this team is so very close to one year's worth of contention, this year, but no plan for long term contention. JMO.

nate
06-22-2010, 10:53 AM
If the Reds are giving up that much, it'd better be for a pitcher with the last name of Lee, and include an extension. Carmona and Wood should not demand anywhere near that on the trade market.

Yep.

Falls City Beer
06-22-2010, 11:00 AM
GMJ is going to get a ton of playing time. He'll play until he's cost the Reds more than a couple of wins. Walt's inner vet demon is getting out of control.

HokieRed
06-22-2010, 11:06 AM
Who's the odd man out in the OF? Surely not Bruce, Gomes, or Stubbs--and my guess is not Nix. What's CD's injury status? Any return date on him?

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 11:06 AM
GMJ is going to get a ton of playing time. He'll play until he's cost the Reds more than a couple of wins. Walt's inner vet demon is getting out of control.

Disagree, unless you mean in AAA.

reds1869
06-22-2010, 11:07 AM
GMJ is a horrible signing, no matter which portion of I-71 his ballpark sits next to. I hope he never makes the trip a few hours north. If he does it is a bad sign.

HokieRed
06-22-2010, 11:08 AM
Only semi-rational explanation I can come up with is that they think Heisey still needs everyday play at AAA and CD's rehabbing is just not going well. I don't see why you'd sign him to park him at AAA unless it's a pure favor to Dusty.

bucksfan2
06-22-2010, 11:09 AM
Don't really feel anything about this either way. He was signed to a minor league contract and likely will go to AAA. Its a common thing here on RZ to expect the worst out of every signing or trade that the FO makes.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 11:09 AM
Disagree, unless you mean in AAA.

He has to get on the 40 man first, who gets dangled for him?

Can't see anyone just yet.

RANDY IN INDY
06-22-2010, 11:12 AM
Don't really feel anything about this either way. He was signed to a minor league contract and likely will go to AAA. Its a common thing here on RZ to expect the worst out of every signing or trade that the FO makes.
:thumbup:

Falls City Beer
06-22-2010, 11:13 AM
Disagree, unless you mean in AAA.

This deal got reported on most every major sports media outlet. It's not some below-the-fold deal. He'll get lots of MLB at-bats.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 11:16 AM
This deal got reported on most every major sports media outlet. It's not some below-the-fold deal. He'll get lots of MLB at-bats.

That's hardly a sign, he's a name player, a legacy and he's 35 with a ML contract, and Monday with 4 games or so is a slow baseball news day.

Chicken Little's galore here today.

Get him on the 40 man and then wave your hands frantically over your head and scream, until then he's in Falls City.

BRM
06-22-2010, 11:20 AM
Don't really feel anything about this either way. He was signed to a minor league contract and likely will go to AAA. Its a common thing here on RZ to expect the worst out of every signing or trade that the FO makes.

Corey Patterson was initially signed to a minor league deal as well. Just sayin'.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 11:25 AM
Corey Patterson was initially signed to a minor league deal as well. Just sayin'.

The Reds didn't have a CF either.

Just Sayin

REDREAD
06-22-2010, 11:26 AM
Well, I can stomach this if Gary Matthews is a 5th OF at best.

Maybe this is like the annual signing of Ricky Stone. You sign the guy, and pray that you aren't forced to call him up.

Maybe Dickerson's injury is more serious than they initially thought.
Maybe there is a trade brewing... I could accept Matthews as a backup OF if that means a trade happens which makes our team better.

As far as Walt earning our trust, I really only see Tavaras as a horrible move, and fortunately Wily was shipped out as quickly as possible. I guess I still don't see Lincoln as a mistake. When Lincoln was resigned, I don't remember any poster here having a strong objection. Lincoln was an injury risk that got hurt. That's the way relief pitching goes. It was a decent risk (as opposed to Stanton).

Now if Matthews becomes the starting CF, I agree, this is likely Walt's second disaster move :)

redsmetz
06-22-2010, 11:29 AM
I think I'm in the camp of much ado about nothing. Minor League deal doesn't put him on the ML roster. Folks are reading all sorts of "palace intrigue" into it when it seems more likely to taking some time to kick the tires and give it a test drive to see if it holds together. Much of the typical "keep him out of Dusty's hands" and "Walt's lost his mind". This sort of thing goes on all the time and I don't expect Matthews to see much, if any, playing time in Cincinnati unless he's improved his game and some other moves (trade?) occur. But he's going to have to prove himself at AAA to get even a sniff with this year's club, IMO.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 11:30 AM
This deal got reported on most every major sports media outlet. It's not some below-the-fold deal. He'll get lots of MLB at-bats.

Give me your over/under for the rest of the year.

Redsfan320
06-22-2010, 11:33 AM
Heh. Just got up to find out the good news. Is this a done deal for sure?

320

BRM
06-22-2010, 11:34 AM
The Reds didn't have a CF either.

Just Sayin

Fair point. FWIW, I can't imagine GMJ will get a lot of time with the big club either but I won't be surprised if he does...if that makes any sense.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 11:38 AM
This discussion reminds me of Aaron Miles.

And Chris Burke.

And Josh Anderson.

And Miguel Cairo.

And Wily Taveras. (Both his acquisition and his DFA.)

And Corey Patterson.

And Laynce Nix.

And Jonny Gomes.

And Kip Wells.

And Daryle Ward.

And Jacque Jones.

And...

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 11:51 AM
OK wait. I wasn't going to post anymore, but this killed me. Jocketty signed WT, brought back Mike Lincoln and now Gary Matthews Jr. He's been lauded for a defensively challenged SS with a weak bat and the surprising resurgence of Scott Rolen. These same posters rip Wayne Krivsky, whose positive impact still outweighs Jocketty's. (Arroyo, BP, even Stubbs to a degree.)

I do not get this. The man gets a pass on every piss poor move he makes because of his rep. I get it. The Rolen trade was fantastic. But as good as he has been, he can't erase the stain of a season of Willy Taveras.

So instead of just trusting the FO on moves they make, because of who is in the FO, maybe we should take each transaction as it comes and judge the overall body of work within THIS organization. Rolen has been uber fantastic. Cabrera was exactly what I thought he was, but perhaps he's had an impact in the clubhouse. GMJ is a dreadful signing if true, and serves no purpose. We can go back a year to see more good and bad signings. My issue is Walt seems to gloss over the weaknesses. If Scott Rolen were a 2B, he still would have traded for him. It seems 3B was fixed by accident, but there is no heir apparent in the system. There is no SS in the system for next year either. MAYBE Cozart. maybe. LF? Heisey? but nobody is kicking down the door.

It seems to me like this team is so very close to one year's worth of contention, this year, but no plan for long term contention. JMO.

Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez, Jonny G, Rolen, Phillips and Cordero :) are all back next year.

Puffy
06-22-2010, 11:58 AM
My God people - its a minor league deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish Redszone was around when the Reds signed Billy Hatcher. Read again - minor league deal. Now if the Reds are contending and make a trade they have options for bench. Thats all this is, its smart planning and maybe Mathews plays like crap and the Reds never even use him, but its a minor league deal!!

Geez.

Puffy
06-22-2010, 12:00 PM
Corey Patterson was initially signed to a minor league deal as well. Just sayin'.

Yeah, that would be a valid counterpoint if this were not the middle of a season where the Reds already have a centerfielder as opposed to Patterson who was signed in offseason when Reds had no centerfielder.

Just sayin'

dabvu2498
06-22-2010, 12:03 PM
I wish Redszone was around when the Reds signed Billy Hatcher.


Actually, they traded for Hatcher.

Puffy
06-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Actually, they traded for Hatcher.

Yeah, you get my point though. You Vanderbilt people are so uppity when it comes to facts and stuff.

traderumor
06-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Gary Matthews Jr. might eat up AAA pitching, which if you've seen the scores of the games at Louisville, that team is brutal offensively. That is all I got on the positive.

Although, I do think most of the venom is based on the stupidity of the Angels to give him the contract they did, which has nothing to do with nothing here.

nate
06-22-2010, 12:07 PM
Fair point. FWIW, I can't imagine GMJ will get a lot of time with the big club either but I won't be surprised if he does...if that makes any sense.

Yep.

Brutus
06-22-2010, 12:46 PM
While I fully loathe the idea of Matthews being anywhere near the 25-man roster, is there any reason to believe this move is anything but organizational fodder (besides the typical Dusty paranoia)?

I agree with the thought it could be a precursor to other moves. Even then, we've got nothing to base that on but a hunch. If Matthews is added to the roster, I certainly have a bad feeling he'll be overused. But until/unless that happens, not sure there's any reason to worry.

OnBaseMachine
06-22-2010, 12:51 PM
OK wait. I wasn't going to post anymore, but this killed me. Jocketty signed WT, brought back Mike Lincoln and now Gary Matthews Jr. He's been lauded for a defensively challenged SS with a weak bat and the surprising resurgence of Scott Rolen. These same posters rip Wayne Krivsky, whose positive impact still outweighs Jocketty's. (Arroyo, BP, even Stubbs to a degree.)

I do not get this. The man gets a pass on every piss poor move he makes because of his rep. I get it. The Rolen trade was fantastic. But as good as he has been, he can't erase the stain of a season of Willy Taveras.


Quoted for truth.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Quoted for truth.

I thought it was quoted for paranoia.

PuffyPig
06-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Quoted for truth.

Certainly the last sentence isn't accurate.

I expect the Reds to be better next year than this.

MikeS21
06-22-2010, 01:05 PM
Three points:

1) You can't convince me in a million years that Matthews is signing a minor league deal without some kind of assurance that he will don the big league uniform at some point in July.

2) Since Stubbs has been moved down in the batting order, I don't really see the need to mess with the trio of Gomes-Stubbs-Bruce as starters. Heisey and Nix are solid enough as the back-ups, and when Dickerson (and/or Fransisco) returns, Matthews becomes the "8th OF" at best.

3) I'm really struggling to see how Gary Matthews Jr. would be enough of an asset to even crack the starting OF in Louisville (hence my Point #1 above).

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 01:09 PM
I thought it was quoted for paranoia.

Phenomenal.

RedsManRick
06-22-2010, 01:10 PM
I don't mind having GMJ on hand in AAA in principle. I do mind having him on the major league roster with Dusty Baker as our manager. He's a direct threat to any shreds of playing time Chris Heisey currently gets.

Sarge Sr. was a direct contemporary of Dusty and you know how Dusty likes to pretend it's still 1978.

OnBaseMachine
06-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Certainly the last sentence isn't accurate.

I expect the Reds to be better next year than this.

I should have only quoted TRF's first two paragraphs because that's what I was agreeing with him on. I fixed my post.

I also disagree with the last part of his post. Like you, I think the Reds will be better next season. We'll (hopefully) have Volquez for a full season, plus Chapman could be ready by then too. With an upgrade or two, I think the 2011 Reds could be the favorites in the NL Central.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 01:15 PM
I don't mind having GMJ on hand in AAA in principle. I do mind having him on the major league roster with Dusty Baker as our manager. He's a direct threat to any shreds of playing time Chris Heisey currently gets.

Sarge Sr. was a direct contemporary of Dusty and you know how Dusty likes to pretend it's still 1978.

Actually I don't, can you expound on that?

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 01:18 PM
I should have only quoted TRF's first two paragraphs because that's what I was agreeing with him on.

I also disagree with the last part of his post. Like you, I think the Reds will be better next season. We'll (hopefully) have Volquez for a full season, plus Chapman could be ready by then too. With an upgrade or two, I think the 2011 Reds could be the favorites in the NL Central.

You actually agree with this statement? Really?


These same posters rip Wayne Krivsky, whose positive impact still outweighs Jocketty's. (Arroyo, BP, even Stubbs to a degree.)


Key contributors to the 2010 team:

Cairo/Rolen/Gomes/Leake/Rhodes/Cabrera

versus

Arroyo/BP/Cordero/Stubbs

Come on...especially when you consider the amount of balance sheet each has been able to utilize.

Spring~Fields
06-22-2010, 01:21 PM
I don't mind having GMJ on hand in AAA in principle. I do mind having him on the major league roster with Dusty Baker as our manager. He's a direct threat to any shreds of playing time Chris Heisey currently gets.

Sarge Sr. was a direct contemporary of Dusty and you know how Dusty likes to pretend it's still 1978.

Why would the Reds even use up space, time and money on this guy ?

Or these other’s that some poster provided?

This discussion reminds me of Aaron Miles.

And Chris Burke.

And Josh Anderson.

And Miguel Cairo.

And Wily Taveras. (Both his acquisition and his DFA.)

And Corey Patterson.

And Laynce Nix.

And Kip Wells.

And Daryle Ward.

And Jacque Jones.

I thought that the minor leagues were stocked with young up and coming, why would one take away from their playing time and development? Let alone spend resources doing that.



I do mind having him on the major league roster with Dusty Baker as our manager.

It might work out to the best to let nature take it's course.

RedsManRick
06-22-2010, 01:22 PM
Actually I don't, can you expound on that?

See any quote in which he justifies a decision by citing how things were done in his day or how Hank Aaron did things. If you're going to force me to dig up specific quotes, I don't have the time and you can consider the comment withdrawn

westofyou
06-22-2010, 01:29 PM
See any quote in which he justifies a decision by citing how things were done in his day or how Hank Aaron did things. If you're going to force me to dig up specific quotes, I don't have the time and you can consider the comment withdrawn

He cites his experience and that's a negative, I get it.

I think any man with a wealth of experience in any field will lean on what he knows and has learned as the compass for his decisions. Pretending that it doesn't matter because he verbalizes it doesn't devalue it. You can be assured that Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre and Jim Leyland all probably think in the same manner. Anyone who's been around the sun more than 40 times is going to look back on their experiences as teaching points, it's the nature of man, some just speak of it more often than others.

Falls City Beer
06-22-2010, 01:52 PM
I'm not a reflexive Dusty basher in the least and I still hate this deal. Not because I think Dusty will use him anymore enthusiastically because he knew his Dad or whatever, but because this organization has an insane addiction to stardust and faded glory. The logic goes something like this: "He once made 12.5 million dollars a season, so there must be some talent left in the tank."

GMJ is probably not going to be a regular starter, no, but to suggest that he's going to be nothing but AAA fodder is simply a matter of folks plugging their ears and closing their eyes to the reality of this franchise over its last two decades. You're just being contentious for contentiousness' sake.

IslandRed
06-22-2010, 01:53 PM
I thought that the minor leagues were stocked with young up and coming, why would one take away from their playing time and development? Let alone spend resources doing that.

With Stubbs and Heisey both in the majors, we basically have nothing in the upper minors at CF. Louisville's up-and-coming center fielder that's getting all the playing time and development lately is a 30-year-old second baseman (Chris Burke). On that score, Matthews wouldn't be doing Louisville or the system any harm. Just keep him away from Cincinnati.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 01:56 PM
I'm not a reflexive Dusty basher in the least and I still hate this deal. Not because I think Dusty will use him anymore enthusiastically because he knew his Dad or whatever, but because this organization has an insane addiction to stardust and faded glory. The logic goes something like this: "He once made 12.5 million dollars a season, so there must be some talent left in the tank."

GMJ is probably not going to be a regular starter, no, but to suggest that he's going to be nothing but AAA fodder is simply a matter of folks plugging their ears and closing their eyes to the reality of this franchise over its last two decades. You're just being contentious for contentiousness' sake.

I think the franchise is in a different place right now.

Falls City Beer
06-22-2010, 01:58 PM
I think the franchise is in a different place right now.

If that were true, they wouldn't have signed him in the first place, quite honestly. Yes, things have changed in the franchise, but that's definitely not an area that's changed.

RedsManRick
06-22-2010, 02:00 PM
He cites his experience and that's a negative, I get it.

I think any man with a wealth of experience in any field will lean on what he knows and has learned as the compass for his decisions. Pretending that it doesn't matter because he verbalizes it doesn't devalue it. You can be assured that Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Joe Torre and Jim Leyland all probably think in the same manner. Anyone who's been around the sun more than 40 times is going to look back on their experiences as teaching points, it's the nature of man, some just speak of it more often than others.

A fair point. I have no problem with personal experience as an input in to a decision.

However, it often seems that Dusty makes decisions on personal experience alone without a willingness to critically examine and consider new ways of thinking.

Obviously I don't know this to be true. But he seems to lean on personal experience more than most.

REDREAD
06-22-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't mind having GMJ on hand in AAA in principle. I do mind having him on the major league roster with Dusty Baker as our manager. He's a direct threat to any shreds of playing time Chris Heisey currently gets.

Sarge Sr. was a direct contemporary of Dusty and you know how Dusty likes to pretend it's still 1978.

Since Dusty has been with the Reds, I can't recall a time where a deserving youngster was shafted on playing time in favor of an inferior vet.

The closest I can think of is 2008? when Hat was brought back and started the season at 1b over Votto. But then again, the GM had just brought back Hat and Votto was being worked into the lineup.. It's not like it was an extended period of time.

I don't think Janish/Cabbera is a good example either. Janish just stinks, plain and simple.Cabbera has been struggling of late too, but this is not a clear case of a talented youngster getting hosed.

REDREAD
06-22-2010, 02:04 PM
If that were true, they wouldn't have signed him in the first place, quite honestly. Yes, things have changed in the franchise, but that's definitely not an area that's changed.

Every club has some faded or journeyman former major leaguers in their AAA for emergency depth. Like I said, this is similiar to the annual Ricky Stone signings. Or Chris Burke, for that matter.

If Stubbs gets traded tommorrow and Matthews becomes the starting CF, then I will agree with you.

Falls City Beer
06-22-2010, 02:07 PM
Every club has some faded or journeyman former major leaguers in their AAA for emergency depth.

Everyone has a drink now and again too; but some folks park it at the end of the bar and never leave.

westofyou
06-22-2010, 02:10 PM
Everyone has a drink now and again too; but some folks park it at the end of the bar and never leave.

Everybody wants to be someone's here
Someone's gonna show up, never fear

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 02:13 PM
If that were true, they wouldn't have signed him in the first place, quite honestly. Yes, things have changed in the franchise, but that's definitely not an area that's changed.

I'm not seeing those total black holes that we have grown so fond of over the past few years on the major league roster. The closest thing we have to one is Cabrera since he hurt his ankle. Even Miguel Cairo, the guy who gets the Rudy Stein treatment around here, seems to find a way to produce when he gets a chance to play.

Matthews is a 5th outfielder at best. Maybe he is the 5th guy if Heisey gets dealt, or maybe the Reds are figuring out that they have zero OF depth if one of their top 4 gets hurt. If Burke is next to get the call then there are serious depth problems.

The other thing I was thinking is that the OF has no RH hitting depth. Last night, they wanted to rest Bruce against a tough lefty and were forced to use Cairo as a DH. Picture one of Stubbs/Gomes getting injured. Now the starting OF is Heisey/Bruce/Stubbs. If they were to be facing Kershaw or someone like that, Bruce would have to start no matter what, instead of being able to leverage that game as a necessary day off.

bucksfan2
06-22-2010, 02:19 PM
Since Dusty has been with the Reds, I can't recall a time where a deserving youngster was shafted on playing time in favor of an inferior vet.

The closest I can think of is 2008? when Hat was brought back and started the season at 1b over Votto. But then again, the GM had just brought back Hat and Votto was being worked into the lineup.. It's not like it was an extended period of time.

I don't think Janish/Cabbera is a good example either. Janish just stinks, plain and simple.Cabbera has been struggling of late too, but this is not a clear case of a talented youngster getting hosed.

Same myth has been busted time and time again but the guys who dislike Dusty keep bring it up over and over and over and over again.

Actually there have been more cases of a youngster getting more rope than they probably should have. Bruce, Stubbs, Bailey, and Cueto all have been allowed to play through their slumps under Dusty. I even remember the complaint that having WT still around on the team heading into this season meant he was the starting CF.

Under Dusty if your good enough to play you will be out there. I still have yet to see a more talented player ride the pine because of "vet love" or because "Dusty played with Hank Aaron".

TRF
06-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez, Jonny G, Rolen, Phillips and Cordero :) are all back next year.

That isn't a plan, it's the earth turning. Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez are all young talented and under control. Jocketty drafted one, and signed another. the rest predate him. The same as every other GM 2 years into his term, they inherit some good players.

The rest are under contract for a limited time, with the lengthiest contract belonging to a 35 year old 3B having a phenomenal year.

I do see a plan forming for next year's pen. There apparently wasn't a very good plan for this year's pen. SS, no plan. LF, no plan, just a hope that Gomes/Dickerson could give you 500+ AB's. And as hot as Gomes was in May, he's been meh in June after an awful April. He's not a lock to be productive from this day forward.

After a great May, Stubbs has turned back into... Drew Stubbs. But he's still fairly young and has shown some flashes. I guess that is a plan.

And now we see the signing of a player with almost no value. Can't field, can't hit. Meanwhile the bullpen is atrocious. But hey, it got the Reds in the news for all of 30 seconds right?

bucksfan2
06-22-2010, 03:32 PM
That isn't a plan, it's the earth turning. Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez are all young talented and under control. Jocketty drafted one, and signed another. the rest predate him. The same as every other GM 2 years into his term, they inherit some good players.

The rest are under contract for a limited time, with the lengthiest contract belonging to a 35 year old 3B having a phenomenal year.

I do see a plan forming for next year's pen. There apparently wasn't a very good plan for this year's pen. SS, no plan. LF, no plan, just a hope that Gomes/Dickerson could give you 500+ AB's. And as hot as Gomes was in May, he's been meh in June after an awful April. He's not a lock to be productive from this day forward.

After a great May, Stubbs has turned back into... Drew Stubbs. But he's still fairly young and has shown some flashes. I guess that is a plan.

And now we see the signing of a player with almost no value. Can't field, can't hit. Meanwhile the bullpen is atrocious. But hey, it got the Reds in the news for all of 30 seconds right?

No offense here but with this point of view I don't know how you are still a fan of this club. This is the most pessimistic view of a club that has shown some substantial promise over this season.

Using your logic we should be giving Walt all the praise for the way the Cards are playing this season. He is the one who drafted or signed or traded for most of their better players. I just don't understand all the gripping about Walt not drafting the contributing players on the team. What is he supposed to do? Trade away all the players he didn't draft because he won't get full credit for their success. Hogwash I tell ya.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 03:36 PM
That isn't a plan, it's the earth turning. Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez are all young talented and under control. Jocketty drafted one, and signed another. the rest predate him. The same as every other GM 2 years into his term, they inherit some good players.

The rest are under contract for a limited time, with the lengthiest contract belonging to a 35 year old 3B having a phenomenal year.

I do see a plan forming for next year's pen. There apparently wasn't a very good plan for this year's pen. SS, no plan. LF, no plan, just a hope that Gomes/Dickerson could give you 500+ AB's. And as hot as Gomes was in May, he's been meh in June after an awful April. He's not a lock to be productive from this day forward.

After a great May, Stubbs has turned back into... Drew Stubbs. But he's still fairly young and has shown some flashes. I guess that is a plan.

And now we see the signing of a player with almost no value. Can't field, can't hit. Meanwhile the bullpen is atrocious. But hey, it got the Reds in the news for all of 30 seconds right?

I disagree with pretty much everything you put out here, including your "facts".

1) Of the players mentioned that impact the Reds as a viable contender in 2011, four were acquired by Jocketty (Chapman, Rolen, Leake, and Gomes) None of those four-- that would be two of your top three run producers, your top prospect, and your top pitcher-- would be here if not for Jocketty. Those are not just good signings and moves, but great ones.

2) to say Jocketty had no plan for 2010 is patently absurd. He signed Cabrera as a one or two-year place-holder, hoping Cozart would be ready or he could find a SS from another team. The LF plan has worked incredibly well. He planned on not paying little for production at a position where production is easy to find. He did that in Gomes, a near All Star level producer.

3) Jocketty gets no credit for this, but he should. He's shown a willingness to be patient. He's worked Stubbs in as the everyday CF and the kid is getting it done (so far). He got rid of his own poor free agent signing rather than play him in front of a promising player (Taveras), despite Redszone's protestations that Taveras would start over the rookie or take too many ABs away or some other such nonsense.

His rotation has had injuries and has been ineffective for the most part. His bullpen has had injuries and has been abhorrent. (Though his signing of Arthur Rhodes was, I think even you would admit, a master stroke.)

What has Jocketty done?

He's made this team into a contender. No amount of world turning would have made that happen without him.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 03:42 PM
That isn't a plan, it's the earth turning. Leake, Votto, Bruce, Chapman, Cueto, Volquez are all young talented and under control. Jocketty drafted one, and signed another. the rest predate him. The same as every other GM 2 years into his term, they inherit some good players.


The rest are under contract for a limited time, with the lengthiest contract belonging to a 35 year old 3B having a phenomenal year.

I do see a plan forming for next year's pen. There apparently wasn't a very good plan for this year's pen. SS, no plan. LF, no plan, just a hope that Gomes/Dickerson could give you 500+ AB's. And as hot as Gomes was in May, he's been meh in June after an awful April. He's not a lock to be productive from this day forward.

After a great May, Stubbs has turned back into... Drew Stubbs. But he's still fairly young and has shown some flashes. I guess that is a plan.

And now we see the signing of a player with almost no value. Can't field, can't hit. Meanwhile the bullpen is atrocious. But hey, it got the Reds in the news for all of 30 seconds right?

I honestly can't believe that someone would actually use Matthews against this FO's performance. Talk about reaching.

Walt's plan is to let the dumb, inherited contracts come off the books while letting the youngsters mature. Fill in with low-risk, short term contracts that won't kill you in the future while helping now. Draft close to the majors players who can help this team out in the near term when the youngsters are getting there.

Everything that should have been done over the past 5 years, once the future started looking much brighter. Not dumping record breaking money on aging closers when the team was in the tank.

TRF
06-22-2010, 04:28 PM
heh. you guys kill me.


Using your logic we should be giving Walt all the praise for the way the Cards are playing this season. He is the one who drafted or signed or traded for most of their better players.

I ABSOLUTELY give Jocketty credit for where St. Louis is as a franchise right now. In 5 years, less credit to be sure, but if they still have Pujols, Freese, Rasmus, Ludwick, Carpenter, Garcia, Schumaker, Wainwright, Motte... then who the hell do you give credit to? It isn't just their best players, its pretty much ALL of them minus Holliday.


I disagree with pretty much everything you put out here, including your "facts".

1) Of the players mentioned that impact the Reds as a viable contender in 2011, four were acquired by Jocketty (Chapman, Rolen, Leake, and Gomes) None of those four-- that would be two of your top three run producers, your top prospect, and your top pitcher-- would be here if not for Jocketty. Those are not just good signings and moves, but great ones.

2) to say Jocketty had no plan for 2010 is patently absurd. He signed Cabrera as a one or two-year place-holder, hoping Cozart would be ready or he could find a SS from another team. The LF plan has worked incredibly well. He planned on not paying little for production at a position where production is easy to find. He did that in Gomes, a near All Star level producer.

3) Jocketty gets no credit for this, but he should. He's shown a willingness to be patient. He's worked Stubbs in as the everyday CF and the kid is getting it done (so far). He got rid of his own poor free agent signing rather than play him in front of a promising player (Taveras), despite Redszone's protestations that Taveras would start over the rookie or take too many ABs away or some other such nonsense.

His rotation has had injuries and has been ineffective for the most part. His bullpen has had injuries and has been abhorrent. (Though his signing of Arthur Rhodes was, I think even you would admit, a master stroke.)

What has Jocketty done?

He's made this team into a contender. No amount of world turning would have made that happen without him.

Well, most draft boards had the Reds selecting Leake at that point, and since the Reds made no major strides in wins from 2008 to 2009, I'd hardly call Leake in this year's rotation a long thought out plan. Right place, right time. As for Chapman, great sign, but again, the Reds started down this road with Cueto, then Yorman Rodriguez, PRIOR to Walt coming on as GM. But he might have had a hand in the Yorman signing, he certainly didn't disapprove.


to say Jocketty had no plan for 2010 is patently absurd. He signed Cabrera as a one or two-year place-holder, hoping Cozart would be ready or he could find a SS from another team.

really? that's a plan? I'm a fan of the numbers Cozart has put up. Like doug i wasn't in favor of any trade proposal that brought the Reds Hu or Brignac as I don't think either is an upgrade over Cozart. OCab isn't hitting, but he makes up for it with limited range. If this is the plan, it kind sucks.

And as for Rhodes. He's having one of the best seasons a reliever has ever had in the history of baseball, and doing it at age 40. If Walt planned this I'd like to get him to pick my Powerball numbers. This is the same Arthur Rhodes that has posted ERA's north of 6 at various times in his career. to plan on this performance from a reliever is, well, IMPOSSIBLE. It was a great sign though. I can't imagine how horrible this pen would be without him.


I honestly can't believe that someone would actually use Matthews against this FO's performance. Talk about reaching.

Walt's plan is to let the dumb, inherited contracts come off the books while letting the youngsters mature. Fill in with low-risk, short term contracts that won't kill you in the future while helping now. Draft close to the majors players who can help this team out in the near term when the youngsters are getting there.

Everything that should have been done over the past 5 years, once the future started looking much brighter. Not dumping record breaking money on aging closers when the team was in the tank.

Signing WT was dumb. everyone in baseball knew it was dumb. Signing Lincoln was dumb. And yes, signing Gomes instead of getting a real LF was dumb. his numbers are streaky, and he's streaking in the wrong direction in a hurry. I will enjoy it when he gets hot again, I just hope it isn't mid July.

And none of what I've posted takes away from the good he has done. The guy isn't an idiot. Continuing with a Latin American program that had started to show some success is smart. Getting Rolen was smart. Leake as a MLB pitcher skipping the minors was smart. Personnally I'd have started Chapman at AA, but he isn't rushing him. smart.

And none of that excuses wasting the ink to sign Gary Matthews Jr. when your pen is blowing leads every stinking night.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 04:31 PM
And none of that excuses wasting the ink to sign Gary Matthews Jr. when your pen is blowing leads every stinking night.

Did he pass on any available relievers in order to meet with GMJ and sign him? If there are relievers available, Walt will be there.

redsmetz
06-22-2010, 04:32 PM
I've come to the conclusion that Walt, Dusty and Bob heard about the ongoing lovefest this year's team has generated over here on Redszone and are signing Matthews to mix things up and give everyone the jitters. The proverbial "panic in the streets." Just something to think about.

TRF
06-22-2010, 04:52 PM
Did he pass on any available relievers in order to meet with GMJ and sign him? If there are relievers available, Walt will be there.

So, I am pretty sure relievers were available this past offseason. Who did he sign? I can't remember if Rhodes was a one or two year deal. anyone? Or did he feel the pen was fine with Lincoln in it? I certainly didn't see Massett floundering like this, can't fault him there. But the merry go round of Ondrusek, Fisher, Del Rosario, Smith et. al. is getting tiresome. Maybe no one is available just yet. And he can't make Harang pitch any better, though he hasn't been too bad of late. May ERA 4.26, June 4.22. I was pleased with the rotation to start the year albeit concerned that Leake was skipping the minors entirely.

Like i said just because a GM makes a dumb move doesn't mean he's an idiot. But we don't have to excuse it because of his reputation either.

lollipopcurve
06-22-2010, 04:58 PM
But the merry go round of Ondrusek, Fisher, Del Rosario, Smith et. al. is getting tiresome.

Not at all. They're finding out if any of these young guys can get major league hitters out. That's exactly what they should be doing, rather than panicking and throwing prospects at the first setup guy to hit the market. And it just so happens that Ondrusek has looked good lately, and Smith too. Doesn't mean they shouldn't go out and improve themselves in a month. But for now, a game out of first, they need to determine what kind of in-house options they have.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 04:59 PM
So, I am pretty sure relievers were available this past offseason. Who did he sign? I can't remember if Rhodes was a one or two year deal. anyone? Or did he feel the pen was fine with Lincoln in it? I certainly didn't see Massett floundering like this, can't fault him there. But the merry go round of Ondrusek, Fisher, Del Rosario, Smith et. al. is getting tiresome. Maybe no one is available just yet. And he can't make Harang pitch any better, though he hasn't been too bad of late. May ERA 4.26, June 4.22. I was pleased with the rotation to start the year albeit concerned that Leake was skipping the minors entirely.

Like i said just because a GM makes a dumb move doesn't mean he's an idiot. But we don't have to excuse it because of his reputation either.

Yeah, but the magnitude of this "dumb" move barely registers on the charts. I give him a pass on his history and reputation because it appears as if there is no room at the inn for Matthews, right now. This is a dumb move if there is a gaping hole in CF on the first day of free agency and Walt gives him 3 years, $25MM.

Picking him up for nothing mid season? Enjoy this contending Reds team and forget about the move.

TRF
06-22-2010, 05:05 PM
Yeah, but the magnitude of this "dumb" move barely registers on the charts. I give him a pass on his history and reputation because it appears as if there is no room at the inn for Matthews, right now. This is a dumb move if there is a gaping hole in CF on the first day of free agency and Walt gives him 3 years, $25MM.

Picking him up for nothing mid season? Enjoy this contending Reds team and forget about the move.

Yeah because he's never handed out a multi year contract to a bad CF before.

As Others have pointed out, the problem with having GMJ is you might use him. So i guess we better hope no one in the Reds OF gets even slightly dinged up.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 05:23 PM
Yeah because he's never handed out a multi year contract to a bad CF before.

As Others have pointed out, the problem with having GMJ is you might use him. So i guess we better hope no one in the Reds OF gets even slightly dinged up.

True, but what are we looking at right now if someone does get dinged up? Burke? Dickerson is already out and maybe is taking longer than expected.

Turn that frown upside down. The Reds are one game out.

TRF
06-22-2010, 05:33 PM
You mean if one of Gomes, Stubbs or Bruce gets dinged? Heisey. I'd rather Nix started 10 in a row than see GMJ inserted in a double switch in the 15th inning. I'd rather watch the flying Juan Franciscos. I'd rather see Freel coaxed out of retirement.

reds44
06-22-2010, 05:34 PM
Just have Volquez point him to where he got his HGH and all of a sudden we'll have a steal on our hands.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 05:44 PM
You mean if one of Gomes, Stubbs or Bruce gets dinged? Heisey. I'd rather Nix started 10 in a row than see GMJ inserted in a double switch in the 15th inning. I'd rather watch the flying Juan Franciscos. I'd rather see Freel coaxed out of retirement.

As long as you are being rationale.

Barring injury, this guy will not see a material amt of playing time. I'm not going to freak out just because they signed a guy, mid-season, to a minor league deal.

_Sir_Charles_
06-22-2010, 05:48 PM
Actually, just out of curiosity, I don't think they've even signed him yet...correct? It sounded imminent, but not done yet.

TRF
06-22-2010, 05:51 PM
As long as you are being rationale.

Barring injury, this guy will not see a material amt of playing time. I'm not going to freak out just because they signed a guy, mid-season, to a minor league deal.

Just being honest. Now tell me this, is there any reason to sign him to ANY kind of deal?

bucksfan2
06-22-2010, 05:52 PM
Just being honest. Now tell me this, is there any reason to sign him to ANY kind of deal?

Minor league fodder. When you have a converted infielder playing CF in AAA you have an issue.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 05:58 PM
Just being honest. Now tell me this, is there any reason to sign him to ANY kind of deal?

Maybe they got bad news on Dickerson yesterday. Maybe Jr is back on the sauce. Maybe The Sarge called in a favor to Dusty.

Bottom line is that we don't know. Jocketty knows, Baker likely does as well. Walt isn't an idiot. You can bring Taveras and Lincoln up however much you want but bottom line is that Walt has done very well since he got here. He deserves our trust. He knows more than any of us do. If he was mismanaging the roster for 2 years and blowing money and long term deals on complete wastes and this was another example, I'd probably be on board. But not now.

TRF
06-22-2010, 05:58 PM
Minor league fodder. When you have a converted infielder playing CF in AAA you have an issue.

GMJ isn't the answer to that issue.

Promote Sean Henry. He's certainly proved he needs a promotion. If his career is 4th-5th OF then the Reds need to see if he can handle AAA at some point.

TRF
06-22-2010, 06:05 PM
Maybe they got bad news on Dickerson yesterday. Maybe Jr is back on the sauce. Maybe The Sarge called in a favor to Dusty.

Bottom line is that we don't know. Jocketty knows, Baker likely does as well. Walt isn't an idiot. You can bring Taveras and Lincoln up however much you want but bottom line is that Walt has done very well since he got here. He deserves our trust. He knows more than any of us do. If he was mismanaging the roster for 2 years and blowing money and long term deals on complete wastes and this was another example, I'd probably be on board. But not now.

Sorry, but he hasn't had to do much of a job at all. In his going on three years as GM, he's made one significant move (Rolen), traded Jr. and Dunn, got value from Jr. and pretty much nothing for Dunn. And the rest is no different than pretty much every other GM does each year; get a few bench players, bring in guys on minor league contracts, hope a few stick.

And personally I hate the "he knows more than any of us do" argument. He may have more information, but just because he's the GM doesn't mean he automatically knows more than say a fan does about the game. He's obviously worked hard to get where he is, no doubt, and he has a track record of success. But some of that is luck, some the personnel he surrounded himself with. Yeah, Walt Jocketty knows more about baseball than I do. But I'd have never signed Willy Taveras.

Like I tell my son, beig smart doesn't mean you don't do dumb things. Being really smart means you don't do it twice.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 06:17 PM
Sorry, but he hasn't had to do much of a job at all. In his going on three years as GM, he's made one significant move (Rolen), traded Jr. and Dunn, got value from Jr. and pretty much nothing for Dunn. And the rest is no different than pretty much every other GM does each year; get a few bench players, bring in guys on minor league contracts, hope a few stick.

Horsecrap.

Gomes
Rolen
Chapman
Rhodes

Patience
A plan

Face facts, TRF. Jocketty didn't walk into a great situation. Two years later, his team is one game out of first place, with more young, cheap talent on its roster than anyone in the division.

If every GM could have done that, don't you think the Reds' revolving door of general managers would have lucked into a couple upper division finishes in the last decade?

TRF
06-22-2010, 06:24 PM
Horsecrap.

Gomes
Rolen
Chapman
Rhodes

Patience
A plan

Face facts, TRF. Jocketty didn't walk into a great situation. Two years later, his team is one game out of first place, with more young, cheap talent on its roster than anyone in the division.

If every GM could have done that, don't you think the Reds' revolving door of general managers would have lucked into a couple upper division finishes in the last decade?

He was handed Stubbs, Bruce, BP, Votto, Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Cordero, Hanigan, and a minor league system in the best shape it had been in, in nearly 20 years. Bad situation? seriously? He was given a core of young high upside talent to build around for the next 7-10 years. Face those facts. You picked 4 players, one having an all century year, one at AAA one having his best season at age 35 since 2004 and a streaky defensively challenged LF currently mired in a pretty bad slump.

And that is the plan? ok... no, that is the earth turning and Rolen is really the only one of the 4 you can point to as having the possibility of having the year he is having right now. Chapman might never pitch in MLB. you never know. Gomes is a DH waiting to happen.

If he has a plan, I can't see it, but then I don't know as much as he does.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 06:38 PM
He was handed Stubbs, Bruce, BP, Votto, Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Cordero, Hanigan, and a minor league system in the best shape it had been in, in nearly 20 years. Bad situation? seriously? He was given a core of young high upside talent to build around for the next 7-10 years. Face those facts. You picked 4 players, one having an all century year, one at AAA one having his best season at age 35 since 2004 and a streaky defensively challenged LF currently mired in a pretty bad slump.

And that is the plan? ok... no, that is the earth turning and Rolen is really the only one of the 4 you can point to as having the possibility of having the year he is having right now. Chapman might never pitch in MLB. you never know. Gomes is a DH waiting to happen.

If he has a plan, I can't see it, but then I don't know as much as he does.

Dude, just enjoy the ride. IF (big if there) this team ends up in the playoffs, you are gonna look back and kick yourself because you forced yourself to hate the season.

And I'm not sure being handed Cordero, Harang and Arroyo is anything to get excited about. That's 50%ish of your payroll in 3 players giving you limited production.

Scrap Irony
06-22-2010, 06:47 PM
Don't all GMs walk into situations where good players are on the team already? Don't all GMs walk into a farm system with good players in it?

The team that Jocketty walked into was one that largely couldn't pitch, couldn't hit, and couldn't field. They were expensive, too. They were in fifth place in the NL Central.

The team he has assembled this year is one game out of first and has enough cheap talent to be talked of as a legitmate playoff team.

The difference is Jocketty honed that talent, kept it, worked it into the team, had the patience to keep with it.

And I picked those four players not because they're all having good years, but because Jocketty signed or dealt for them all.

I'll add Hernandez, another Jocketty trade recipient. Lucky, I guess, once again.
Then I'll add Miguel Cairo and Laynce Nix, bench bats that have produced pretty well cheaply. Of course, he was lucky there too, I'm sure.

Of the 10 guys on this team acquired by Jocketty, seven are having good seasons. Only Cabrera, Masset, and Lincoln are struggling. You can lay two of those off to injuries, as Lincoln and Cabrera were decent before being hurt. Masset has a 450 BaBIP and is likely to see his effectiveness rise as the season progresses.

Yeah, if only we were all lucky like Jocketty.

Spring~Fields
06-22-2010, 07:09 PM
Just being honest. Now tell me this, is there any reason to sign him to ANY kind of deal?

Oh I will answer it for you. The Reds have Heisey, Nix, Bruce and maybe even Dickerson if he gets well, who all can backup Stubbs in center on the major league team. If you’re speaking only of the major league team, your answer is no.

How did you get manipulated into that discussion over what Walt has or has not, when the thread is about a player that is not even signed to a minor league contract yet? :)

I am sure that Walt, Dusty and the Reds are very thankful for the season that they have had against the dysfunctional Pirates, Astros, Indians and Brewers to date. A schedule they inherited. Amazing how good bad pitching and weak competition can make one look. :thumbup:

I kind of want to see Jr playing in center for the Reds, but, not for constructive reasons. :evil:

There are still some outstanding arguments that remain to be answered from earlier.
Stubbs in center
RS on the season
Extending Dusty
Vet experience vs not.

Jr would help all those out.

CrackerJack
06-22-2010, 07:27 PM
9 pages and counting on a thread about Gary Matthews Jr. possibly going to help out the Bats, and now totally off-topic...ah Redszone in the summer :)

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 07:57 PM
9 pages and counting on a thread about Gary Matthews Jr. possibly going to help out the Bats, and now totally off-topic...ah Redszone in the summer :)

The EdE thread is closing in on 8 pages as we post. At least this is relevant. :)

Anyone have a lineup yet? Are we Mig Pimpin again tonight?

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 08:02 PM
No Miggy

westofyou
06-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Hand wringing now at Shakelfordian and Roenikean status

lollipopcurve
06-22-2010, 08:14 PM
Somebody DFA this thread.

Spitball
06-22-2010, 10:30 PM
And personally I hate the "he knows more than any of us do" argument. He may have more information, but just because he's the GM doesn't mean he automatically knows more than say a fan does about the game...

Uhhh...when I was in seventh grade, a thirteen year old boy made a similar statement about physical science to our science teacher, who had been in the business about twenty years. Even as a kid, I thought it was a very odd statement.

edabbs44
06-22-2010, 10:45 PM
Maybe they got bad news on Dickerson yesterday. Maybe Jr is back on the sauce. Maybe The Sarge called in a favor to Dusty.

Bottom line is that we don't know. Jocketty knows, Baker likely does as well. Walt isn't an idiot. You can bring Taveras and Lincoln up however much you want but bottom line is that Walt has done very well since he got here. He deserves our trust. He knows more than any of us do. If he was mismanaging the roster for 2 years and blowing money and long term deals on complete wastes and this was another example, I'd probably be on board. But not now.

From rotoworld:


Chris Dickerson (hand) was expected to begin a minor league rehab assignment with Triple-A Louisville on Tuesday, however he was scratched after he felt soreness during batting practice.

Dickerson is currently working his way back from undergoing surgeries on his right hand and wrist last month, so he was likely held back as a precaution. There's no indication of when he'll return to action.

Maybe this gave the FO some cause for concern?

westofyou
06-22-2010, 10:56 PM
From rotoworld:



Maybe this gave the FO some cause for concern?

Dickerson was in the booth recently and expressed less than full confidence that he'd be back this summer. IF that's true and he on the 40 man then he being moved to the 60 day dl to make room for others would lock him out of the most of the season. Obviously he's a trigger in any OF signage, plus he becomes a fall back if injuries do occur. Be prepared is not a bad motto to adhere to in a game that stretches over 6 months.

Spring~Fields
06-22-2010, 11:25 PM
Somebody DFA this thread.


Here's a great place for it.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

I am sure that doug and OBM are huge fans of Matthews and can fill us in on all the minor details. :devil:

:help:

CesarGeronimo
06-23-2010, 01:12 AM
Minor league fodder. When you have a converted infielder playing CF in AAA you have an issue.

I don't see any reason why Matthews would be looking to play in the minor leagues at age 35 at the end of a five-year, $50 million contract. Hope like crazy that I'm wrong, but I think we'll see him in Cincy. The reports on this mention that Dusty has long been close with Matthews' dad. I don't think the favor his dad would be looking for is to play his son, an all-star in 2006, in the minors.

Scrap Irony
06-23-2010, 01:37 AM
Why not?

The guy has no offers and needs to stay sharp. The only way to stay sharp is to play. The Reds need some OF help in the minor leagues, as most of their OFs have struggled.

It's the perfect storm of fitting together.

Spring~Fields
06-23-2010, 02:26 AM
I don't see any reason why Matthews would be looking to play in the minor leagues at age 35 at the end of a five-year, $50 million contract. Hope like crazy that I'm wrong, but I think we'll see him in Cincy. The reports on this mention that Dusty has long been close with Matthews' dad. I don't think the favor his dad would be looking for is to play his son, an all-star in 2006, in the minors.

I was kind of wondering myself, why, what should be a millionaire, why he would want to play in the minors at his age and with his probable wealth.

Maybe they are thinking of sending Stubbs back down to learn to hit and to get on base.

CesarGeronimo
06-23-2010, 02:31 AM
So if he just wants to play in the minors to stay sharp, what are the negotiations about? The Reds' Bob Miller is reported to have said the deal with Matthews isn't done yet, but "will probably get done" which would seem to suggest that Matthews is going to get at least a little bit of money beyond what a typical minor leaguer would (very possibly I'm missing something here?).

Yes, I'm probably just paranoid, but I worry that Dusty sees Stubbs hitting .238 - and not batting where a CF is supposed to bat in the lineup! - and thinks he can improve that situation by adding a guy he's known since he was a baby to the team.

Ron Madden
06-23-2010, 05:12 AM
I'm sure the Reds can find plenty of young guys with the ability to play CF in Louisville.

If GMJ is signed I doubt it'll be to help the Louisville Bats outfield situation.

Go ahead and shoot me because signing GMJ kinda worries me.

GAC
06-23-2010, 05:32 AM
He signed a MINOR LEAGUE contract. He's there to bolster AAA and in case of injury. Nothing more to be made of it IMO.

Ron Madden
06-23-2010, 05:40 AM
He signed a MINOR LEAGUE contract. He's there to bolster AAA and in case of injury. Nothing more to be made of it IMO.

He aint signed nothin' yet. ;)

BRM
06-23-2010, 10:15 AM
He aint signed nothin' yet. ;)

Yep. Let's wait 'til he actually signs some sort of deal before doing any real hand-wringing.

RANDY IN INDY
06-23-2010, 10:33 AM
After reading this thread, it seems much too late for that, LOL.

And my favorite quote from the thread:


And personally I hate the "he knows more than any of us do" argument. He may have more information, but just because he's the GM doesn't mean he automatically knows more than say a fan does about the game.

A redszone classic. :lol: Can't say how many times I have read that one over the years.

BRM
06-23-2010, 10:51 AM
After reading this thread, it seems much too late for that, LOL.


We love to hand-wring here. It's what we do best.

westofyou
06-23-2010, 10:55 AM
I was kind of wondering myself, why, what should be a millionaire, why he would want to play in the minors at his age and with his probable wealth.

Maybe they are thinking of sending Stubbs back down to learn to hit and to get on base.
Because he loves the game, it's been a part of every waking moment of his life and money isn't the answer to placating every need in the human psyche?

Mario-Rijo
06-23-2010, 10:59 AM
I will admit all the way thru the entire thread I'm feeling disappointed about the potential deal but if (extremely massive IF) the move is an emergency precaution in case Dickerson cannot come back AND they can't swing a deal for a reasonable other 4th/5th OF at the deadline (maybe CoCo Crisp) then I can live with it. But if they signed him with the intent of him being the direct replacement for Dickerson if he can't go this season, then they really aren't serious about contending. We will likely never know unless they screw up and say it once they do sign him, possible.

edabbs44
06-23-2010, 11:05 AM
I will admit all the way thru the entire thread I'm feeling disappointed about the potential deal but if (extremely massive IF) the move is an emergency precaution in case Dickerson cannot come back AND they can't swing a deal for a reasonable other 4th/5th OF at the deadline (maybe CoCo Crisp) then I can live with it. But if they signed him with the intent of him being the direct replacement for Dickerson if he can't go this season, then they really aren't serious about contending. We will likely never know unless they screw up and say it once they do sign him, possible.

If Dickerson comes back, he would be the 5th guy at this point. Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes and Heisey are all far ahead of him.

If Matthews replaces anyone who is healthy it would be Nix. And it wouldn't break my heart if that happened.

WVRed
06-23-2010, 11:06 AM
YouTube - The Price is Right losing horn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A)

westofyou
06-23-2010, 11:09 AM
But if they signed him with the intent of him being the direct replacement for Dickerson if he can't go this season, then they really aren't serious about contending.
Really?

Subtext is a powerful tool, as is imagination, I'm going with the later in this case.

Mario-Rijo
06-23-2010, 11:31 AM
If Dickerson comes back, he would be the 5th guy at this point. Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes and Heisey are all far ahead of him.

If Matthews replaces anyone who is healthy it would be Nix. And it wouldn't break my heart if that happened.

How exactly is Matthews a better fit than even Nix? At the very least Nix brings good defense (who can actually play 3 OF positions), a strong arm and LH power off the bench. What does GMJ add that we don't already have? Nix at his worst is a better player than Matthews, hands down.

Mario-Rijo
06-23-2010, 11:34 AM
Really?

Subtext is a powerful tool, as is imagination, I'm going with the later in this case.

I'm imagining huh? Okie dokie then. GMJ will be (if anyone gets hurt) a negative drag on the major league team and when your in contention why in the world wouldn't you try to do better than that? Oh sure they want to contend but wanting to and being serious about it are 2 different things.

westofyou
06-23-2010, 11:41 AM
I'm imagining huh? Okie dokie then. GMJ will be (if anyone gets hurt) a negative drag on the major league team and when your in contention why in the world wouldn't you try to do better than that? Oh sure they want to contend but wanting to and being serious about it are 2 different things.

You're creating what-ifs to fit your agenda (they're not trying) based on opinion and conjecture so to me it is an okie dokie moment.

edabbs44
06-23-2010, 11:57 AM
How exactly is Matthews a better fit than even Nix? At the very least Nix brings good defense (who can actually play 3 OF positions), a strong arm and LH power off the bench. What does GMJ add that we don't already have? Nix at his worst is a better player than Matthews, hands down.

I didn't say that. What I said is that they will be carrying 5 OFs and he won't be playing in front of Gomes, Stubbs, Bruce and Heisey. So if he gets time at the expense of anyone it would have to be Nix, barring injury or trade.

Nix is basically the 24th/25th man with a line of .239/.272/.443. I won't lose sleep if GMJ stays in AAA and I won't if he takes Nix's spot. It won't be enough to really worry me.

But the other situation is this...right now, if one of the top 4 got traded or injured Chris Burke would likely get the call as a replacement. The guy with the .238/.322/.347 line in AAA and hasn't sniffed a .600 OPS in the majors since 2007. Would you rather see Burke or GMJ as your 5th OF?

Spring~Fields
06-23-2010, 11:59 AM
Because he loves the game, it's been a part of every waking moment of his life and money isn't the answer to placating every need in the human psyche?

I think that is true for the human condition and you may very well be right about his choices here.

edabbs44
06-23-2010, 12:01 PM
I'm imagining huh? Okie dokie then. GMJ will be (if anyone gets hurt) a negative drag on the major league team and when your in contention why in the world wouldn't you try to do better than that? Oh sure they want to contend but wanting to and being serious about it are 2 different things.

Who's to say that they aren't still trying to do better? Do you really think that the FO was chest bumping after GMJ was released? High-fives all around, billboards being constructed and media guides being re-released with GMJ on the cover with Leake, Votto and Rolen in the background.

There is no way that the FO believes that they are done once they lock him up. Thinking any other way is pretty ridiculous.

gonelong
06-23-2010, 12:03 PM
And my favorite quote from the thread:
A redszone classic. :lol: Can't say how many times I have read that one over the years.

Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success. (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/friedman_andrew.html) How absurd.

Only those that have pure-royal-baseball-bloodlines (incest) who have drank from the 30-years-of-experience-grizzled-mystical-wizzard chalice (nepotism) could possibly know anything useful about baseball. Who are these peasants and farmers to challenge how the kingdom is run? What experience have they?

GL

/maybe they'll let us eat cake

edabbs44
06-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Metszone just imploded..from rotoworld.


Mets signed RHP Ramon Ortiz to a minor league contract.

Ortiz was designated for assignment by the Dodgers last month after posting a 6.30 ERA and 1.63 ERA over his first 16 appearances (two starts). He hasn't been even a decent pitcher since the early part of the 2000s as a member of the Angels, so we doubt he'll be anything more than organizational depth.

nemesis
06-23-2010, 02:43 PM
I actually think it'll be Heisey that would be demoted from a logical standpoint. Nix is the only LH bat on the bench. He has to clear waivers. The team won't go without a LH PHer. Heisey has options. Heisey would most certainly be asked for in any trade for a TOR kinda guy. It is uncertain if Dickerson will hit his weight when he comes back. We already know he won't hit for power for almost another year. I could see Dickerson in AAA til September especially since he has options left and probably won't be ready to go down there til mid July after his latest setback... He will need everyday AB's to get back into any type of playing shape due to all the missed time. I think this is a move to get GHJ time in the minors to see if he can round into any kind of form. He may OPS in the .600's and it's a moot point. But, if he gets near the .800's or Heisey get's traded, he'll be up here. Honestly I prefer him up here over the option of Burke. So I guess the positive spin is he is an upgrade over what would have been the next OF call up. It is a shame Balentien has had such a rough go of it this year. Wasted a opportunity to get back here.

pedro
06-23-2010, 02:46 PM
Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success. (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/friedman_andrew.html) How absurd.

Only those that have pure-royal-baseball-bloodlines (incest) who have drank from the 30-years-of-experience-grizzled-mystical-wizzard chalice (nepotism) could possibly know anything useful about baseball. Who are these peasants and farmers to challenge how the kingdom is run? What experience have they?

GL

/maybe they'll let us eat cake

There's a big difference between a guy who played division I college ball and spent two years as director of baseball development under the tutelage of Gerry Hunsicker before transitioninng into his current position and a even smarter than average fan who has never worked in the industry.

Mario-Rijo
06-23-2010, 02:50 PM
You're creating what-ifs to fit your agenda (they're not trying) based on opinion and conjecture so to me it is an okie dokie moment.

I am? It's not my agenda, it's my opinion based on the potential signing. I thought they have been doing fairly well as of late at least doing the minimum to help the team. They handled Gomes shrewdly and he has been better than I expected him to both offensively and defensively (though he still has his moments). Cabrera has been a decent acquisition (overall about what I expected, in the neighborhood at least). And so on, so to me up until this acquisition (and Cairo to some smaller extent) they seem to be making positives steps.

You don't sign guys like this unless you expect to use them in some scenario. If he's the break in case of emergency scenario you can't really fault them and he's better than playing Cairo or someone similiar in the OF and IMO better than having to play a non CF in CF (though he's not much better). If he's the actual answer for the duration if Dickerson isn't available and someone else gets injured I would think if they were dead set on taking advantage of what they have going here they would aim higher, wouldn't you?

Mario-Rijo
06-23-2010, 02:59 PM
I didn't say that. What I said is that they will be carrying 5 OFs and he won't be playing in front of Gomes, Stubbs, Bruce and Heisey. So if he gets time at the expense of anyone it would have to be Nix, barring injury or trade.

Nix is basically the 24th/25th man with a line of .239/.272/.443. I won't lose sleep if GMJ stays in AAA and I won't if he takes Nix's spot. It won't be enough to really worry me.

But the other situation is this...right now, if one of the top 4 got traded or injured Chris Burke would likely get the call as a replacement. The guy with the .238/.322/.347 line in AAA and hasn't sniffed a .600 OPS in the majors since 2007. Would you rather see Burke or GMJ as your 5th OF?

Honestly if an OF get hurt yesterday I would bring up maybe a half a dozen different guys ahead of either of them at least in the short term.

westofyou
06-23-2010, 03:03 PM
Honestly if an OF get hurt yesterday I would bring up maybe a half a dozen different guys ahead of either of them at least in the short term.

What 1/2 a dozen Reds ML deserve to be in the bigs in case of emergency?

Who won't be overmatched at all?

Who is the team willing to start their service time clock and waste an option on.

Who are the 6 guys you refer to?

I can't think of 3.

RANDY IN INDY
06-23-2010, 03:27 PM
Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success. (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/friedman_andrew.html) How absurd.

Only those that have pure-royal-baseball-bloodlines (incest) who have drank from the 30-years-of-experience-grizzled-mystical-wizzard chalice (nepotism) could possibly know anything useful about baseball. Who are these peasants and farmers to challenge how the kingdom is run? What experience have they?

GL

/maybe they'll let us eat cake

:laugh:

RANDY IN INDY
06-23-2010, 03:28 PM
There's a big difference between a guy who played division I college ball and spent two years as director of baseball development under the tutelage of Gerry Hunsicker before transitioninng into his current position and a even smarter than average fan who has never worked in the industry.

Ya think.;)

OnBaseMachine
06-23-2010, 03:29 PM
From Jeff Fletcher:

Walt Jockettey said the #reds are hoping to have G.Matthews Jr. signed to a minor of deal by the weekend. GMJ would play at AAA.

http://twitter.com/JeffFletcherAOL

RANDY IN INDY
06-23-2010, 03:30 PM
What 1/2 a dozen Reds ML deserve to be in the bigs in case of emergency?

Who won't be overmatched at all?

Who is the team willing to start their service time clock and waste an option on.

Who are the 6 guys you refer to?

I can't think of 3.

Particularly in the heat of a tight pennant race.

REDREAD
06-23-2010, 04:36 PM
Well, most draft boards had the Reds selecting Leake at that point, and since the Reds made no major strides in wins from 2008 to 2009, I'd hardly call Leake in this year's rotation a long thought out plan. Right place, right time.


The Reds have had an incredible talent over the years for bumbling the "no brainer" picks. Probably most of the teams ahead of the Reds in the draft wished they had picked Leake instead, at this point. It's a win. For once, someone on Redszone didn't make a better first round pick than the Reds themselves :)




really? that's a plan? I'm a fan of the numbers Cozart has put up. Like doug i wasn't in favor of any trade proposal that brought the Reds Hu or Brignac as I don't think either is an upgrade over Cozart. OCab isn't hitting, but he makes up for it with limited range. If this is the plan, it kind sucks.


Since Walt has arrived, I am pretty sure that he has turned over 6 of the starting 8 position players. I can't remember if Hat was cut loose by Walt or not (barrier for Votto starting). Walt cut loose a ton of dead weight like Patterson, Stanton, Castro, Maj, etc.. That was Wayne's problem. Wayne picked up some great players, but also a ton of bad players. So far, Walt's only real goof acquaition is Wily T, and Walt was smart enough to discard him after a year. If only we were so lucky with Stanton.

Anyway, the point is that Walt is turning over personnel on the club, and upgrading defense while doing so.. if that's not a plan, I am not sure what is.



And as for Rhodes. He's having one of the best seasons a reliever has ever had in the history of baseball, and doing it at age 40. If Walt planned this I'd like to get him to pick my Powerball numbers. This is the same Arthur Rhodes that has posted ERA's north of 6 at various times in his career. to plan on this performance from a reliever is, well, IMPOSSIBLE. It was a great sign though. I can't imagine how horrible this pen would be without him.


It's all about making signings with a good risk/reward prospect. I mean, we could all say the same thing about Josh Hamilton.. There was no way to predict he would've broken out the way he did, but you've got to give Wayne credit for hitting the lotto ticket.. That was a bigger longshot than Rhodes.



. Signing Lincoln was dumb.


I don't remember any of the Redszone experts being strongly opposed to this at the time he was signed. Relievers get hurt. It happens. Lincoln was due (IIRC) 4 million over 2 years, hardly crippling. He was coming off a very good year, it made sense to roll the dice at that price and hope he stayed healthy.




And none of that excuses wasting the ink to sign Gary Matthews Jr. when your pen is blowing leads every stinking night.

Ok, but what if Gary Matthews Jr never makes it to the club this year? Is it forgivable then?

REDREAD
06-23-2010, 04:41 PM
And the rest is no different than pretty much every other GM does each year; get a few bench players, bring in guys on minor league contracts, hope a few stick.
.

Yet what Reds GM has been able to make the routine moves and be able to build a team that can finish over .500? That hasn't happened in a long time.
Give the guy some credit. This is the best Reds team we've seen in a long time, and the club is likely to be better next year.

The Reds have gotten better every year under Jocketty, and I think it's reasonable to expect improvement in 2011. I have not been comfortable with saying that since the mid 90's.

REDREAD
06-23-2010, 04:46 PM
He was handed Stubbs, Bruce, BP, Votto, Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Cordero, Hanigan, and a minor league system in the best shape it had been in, in nearly 20 years.

And his starting lineup was:

1b Hat/Votto
2b Philips
ss Keppinger
3b Ede
LF Dunn, on his last year
CF Patterson?
RF Jr, on his last year
C Bako

The pen he inherited was actually decent, but it was a patchwork of vets. No young talent. The rotation was pretty marginal.
Oh, and he had limited money too.

IMO, he did not walk into the greatest situation. He was handed a horrible team and the expecation was to turn it around NOW while continuing to rebuild the farm.

A lot of posters were calling for a wholesale firesale around 2008. Blow the whole team up. We'll accept 5 more years of horrible baseball and horde prospects.. Instead, Walt has given us a contending team 2 years later, and the farm looks brighter than ever.

Sure, Walt could've done more, but he's done a fine job.

Forgive me for responding 3 times to the same argument :)

REDREAD
06-23-2010, 04:51 PM
I was kind of wondering myself, why, what should be a millionaire, why he would want to play in the minors at his age and with his probable wealth.
.

Why did Steve Charlton and some other vets continue to bounce around teams when they were clearly finished?

It's probably a tough pill for a major leaguer to swallow that he's finished (if he is). Matthews probably figures he can find his stroke in AAA and be back in the majors either this year or next. 35 is not that old. Now, I admit, he's a longshot, but that's probably what he's thinking.

bucksfan2
06-23-2010, 04:59 PM
Why did Steve Charlton and some other vets continue to bounce around teams when they were clearly finished?

It's probably a tough pill for a major leaguer to swallow that he's finished (if he is). Matthews probably figures he can find his stroke in AAA and be back in the majors either this year or next. 35 is not that old. Now, I admit, he's a longshot, but that's probably what he's thinking.

Same reason that Rickey Henderson played in the independent league when he was a sure fire first ballot HOF. Some guys just don't like to hang up the cleats and retire from their respective sports.

Spring~Fields
06-23-2010, 07:36 PM
It's probably a tough pill for a major leaguer to swallow that he's finished (if he is). Matthews probably figures he can find his stroke in AAA and be back in the majors either this year or next. 35 is not that old. Now, I admit, he's a longshot, but that's probably what he's thinking.

Accepting what you're saying. Then Matthews is planning on being back in the majors, at Cincinnati. If he is, Baker will use him.

His best years was in that stadium in Texas. If his history is true for him, his OBP and OPS is too low to be a big help and a nice upgrade for the Reds.



Matthews OPS 3 YR Splits
1999 SD .600 vs. Left .315 .366 .681
2000 ChC .561 vs. Right .329 .389 .718
2001 ChC .684
2001 Pit .742
2001 -- .706
2002 Bal .782
2002 NYM .000
2002 -- .780
2003 Bal .577
2003 SD .725
2003 -- .675
2004 Tex .811
2005 Tex .756
2006 Tex .866
2007 LAA .742
2008 LAA .676
2009 LAA .697
2010 NYM .507


It is very possible that you already have better in Chris Heisey. Yet everyone has this love fetish for Stubbs, his speed, and his occasional homerun, and they forget that they might have more, granted less speed in Heisey, but, more of what they love in OBP and SLG if the guy could get some consistent playing time.

I would like to think that each and everyone of us would like to see the Reds upgrade, improve, be proactive, progressive in positive forward movement. I don't think that Matthews is that.

They already have a lot of .700 OPS players, they need better, more in the direction of the Rolen/Votto types.

TheNext44
06-23-2010, 07:49 PM
Accepting what you're saying. Then Matthews is planning on being back in the majors, at Cincinnati. If he is, Baker will use him.



Matthews may be planning on being back in the majors, but that doesn't mean he will be. That all depends on the Reds plans, and how he does in AAA.

I'm betting that he doesn't make the MLB roster until Sept. if at all. And I'm praying that's the case.

CesarGeronimo
06-23-2010, 08:03 PM
Jeff Fletcher of AOL's tweet: http://twitter.com/JeffFletcherAOL

More Jocketty on GMJ: "He'll have to earn his way here." He'd start at AAA. Jocketty not ready to say how GMJ would be used with #Reds.

Spring~Fields
06-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Matthews may be planning on being back in the majors, but that doesn't mean he will be. That all depends on the Reds plans, and how he does in AAA.

I'm betting that he doesn't make the MLB roster until Sept. if at all. And I'm praying that's the case.

You better be praying, Mr. Skyline. :evil: You will be the first that I PM about the Reds improving, RS, Age or veteran preferances, that Dusy doesn't have :rolleyes: and what happened to that young and youth movement PR puffery/propaganda they sell us. :lol:

After watching Stubbs, and enduring all the arguments about him earlier in the season, Matthews is starting to look good to me.........pray harder. :)



Last Seven Days Season
Drew Stubbs .100 .182 .100 .282 Drew Stubbs .231 .306 .382 .688
Orlando Cabrera .077 .077 .077 .154 Orlando Cabrera .238 .276 .327 .604

Season
Chris Heisey .280 .368 .600 .968

Can Matthews play short or pitch in relief :thumbup:

GAC
06-24-2010, 05:13 AM
Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success. (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/friedman_andrew.html) How absurd.

Only those that have pure-royal-baseball-bloodlines (incest) who have drank from the 30-years-of-experience-grizzled-mystical-wizzard chalice (nepotism) could possibly know anything useful about baseball. Who are these peasants and farmers to challenge how the kingdom is run? What experience have they?

GL

/maybe they'll let us eat cake

Dude! That's gem that needs to be archived! LOL

traderumor
06-24-2010, 07:59 AM
Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success. (http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/tb/team/exe_bios/friedman_andrew.html) How absurd.

Only those that have pure-royal-baseball-bloodlines (incest) who have drank from the 30-years-of-experience-grizzled-mystical-wizzard chalice (nepotism) could possibly know anything useful about baseball. Who are these peasants and farmers to challenge how the kingdom is run? What experience have they?

GL

/maybe they'll let us eat cakeI'm not sure what this has to do with keyboard GM second-guessing.

Mario-Rijo
06-24-2010, 09:27 AM
What 1/2 a dozen Reds ML deserve to be in the bigs in case of emergency?

Who won't be overmatched at all?

Who is the team willing to start their service time clock and waste an option on.

Who are the 6 guys you refer to?

I can't think of 3.

Take your pick of any 3 OF's/UT men in the upper minors who have yet to play in the bigs plus Sutton, Francisco & Balentein. And this coming from someone who thinks Francisco stinks. Ok I'm exaggerating but the point stands if one is serious about competing then they add solid guys not below average ones.

gonelong
06-24-2010, 10:21 AM
There's a big difference between a guy who played division I college ball and spent two years as director of baseball development under the tutelage of Gerry Hunsicker before transitioninng into his current position and a even smarter than average fan who has never worked in the industry.

In 2003, that wasn't the case, that's the point. In 2003 he didn't have two years as a director of baseball development. He had no experience what-so-ever. In 2003 this guy was just some knucklehead playing fantasy baseball with his friends.

Somebody took this guy, with absolutely no experience, and made him director of baseball development ... then shortly after, GM.

He was a oft-injured division 1 player with no, nada, zip experience in baseball. Andrew Friedman was injured his Freshman and Sophmore years at Tulane, and didn't play past then as far as I can tell. I have no doubts we have posters on this forum that have had more impact at a Division 1 school than Friedman.

In 2003 he was working at an investment bank. Zero baseball experience. None. Nada. He wasn't a scout. He hadn't even worked as a gopher or clubhouse attendant. Hell, I doubt he even sold hot dogs at a game.

He was a baseball fan. He more than likely posted on some forums. He played fantasy baseball with his buddies.

The fact that someone then tabbed him as a smart guy that could be valuable to the organization then led him to be hired for two years as director of baseball development under the tutelage of Gerry Hunsicker. Before that he just a successful dude working in the investment banking industry.

I'm not saying your average message board poster would make a good GM. I am saying that this idea that only those that have spent their whole lives in baseball could possibly be successful as a GM is pure hogwash, and this guy shows it.

Successful people are quite often not subject matter experts. They are leaders.

Baseball is about 30 years behind other industries in becoming efficient. However, like it or not, it has been taking hold and will be accellerating over the next decade.

GL

TRF
06-24-2010, 10:31 AM
gl, awesome post.

And it's greeat that others think all I am doing is hand wringing over a possible(definite according to Jocketty) signing of a bad defensive player that can't hit. It's great that I've been told I hate this season, just because i disagree with some moves. It's great that we can't discuss the move in question because Walt Jocketty won a WS with St. Louis and he's successful and he never makes mistakes because he has a ton of experience and has been successful.

okey doke.

Good GM's make bad moves. it happens. I think this is a bad move. I don't think there is a single thing GMJ can do to help this organization. The guy got a $50M contract for one amazing catch in Texas, and two teams have been trying to get rid of him since, one team eating millions.

Does that not resonate with anyone? And just because its a minor league contract doesn't somehow make it ok.

But because I disagree, I hate this season and the Reds.

awe. some.

gonelong
06-24-2010, 10:33 AM
I'm not sure what this has to do with keyboard GM second-guessing.

Your not qualified to second guess the Emperor, even if he isn't wearing clothes. :laugh:

GL

edabbs44
06-24-2010, 10:47 AM
gl, awesome post.

And it's greeat that others think all I am doing is hand wringing over a possible(definite according to Jocketty) signing of a bad defensive player that can't hit. It's great that I've been told I hate this season, just because i disagree with some moves. It's great that we can't discuss the move in question because Walt Jocketty won a WS with St. Louis and he's successful and he never makes mistakes because he has a ton of experience and has been successful.

okey doke.

Good GM's make bad moves. it happens. I think this is a bad move. I don't think there is a single thing GMJ can do to help this organization. The guy got a $50M contract for one amazing catch in Texas, and two teams have been trying to get rid of him since, one team eating millions.

Does that not resonate with anyone? And just because its a minor league contract doesn't somehow make it ok.

But because I disagree, I hate this season and the Reds.

awe. some.

I think it is ok to question the move. In fact, I think it is ok to question any move. Hell, I was one of the few who would question some of WK's more popular (at the time) moves.

I can only speak for myself in saying that the issue I had with your posts was where you questioned WJ and his "plan" due to this move. Here is the post in scope:


OK wait. I wasn't going to post anymore, but this killed me. Jocketty signed WT, brought back Mike Lincoln and now Gary Matthews Jr. He's been lauded for a defensively challenged SS with a weak bat and the surprising resurgence of Scott Rolen. These same posters rip Wayne Krivsky, whose positive impact still outweighs Jocketty's. (Arroyo, BP, even Stubbs to a degree.)

I do not get this. The man gets a pass on every piss poor move he makes because of his rep. I get it. The Rolen trade was fantastic. But as good as he has been, he can't erase the stain of a season of Willy Taveras.

So instead of just trusting the FO on moves they make, because of who is in the FO, maybe we should take each transaction as it comes and judge the overall body of work within THIS organization. Rolen has been uber fantastic. Cabrera was exactly what I thought he was, but perhaps he's had an impact in the clubhouse. GMJ is a dreadful signing if true, and serves no purpose. We can go back a year to see more good and bad signings. My issue is Walt seems to gloss over the weaknesses. If Scott Rolen were a 2B, he still would have traded for him. It seems 3B was fixed by accident, but there is no heir apparent in the system. There is no SS in the system for next year either. MAYBE Cozart. maybe. LF? Heisey? but nobody is kicking down the door.

It seems to me like this team is so very close to one year's worth of contention, this year, but no plan for long term contention. JMO.

You weren't just disagreeing with this one move. You were questioning WJ's overall body of work because of this one signing. That's the point of contention.

traderumor
06-24-2010, 11:08 AM
Take your pick of any 3 OF's/UT men in the upper minors who have yet to play in the bigs plus Sutton, Francisco & Balentein. And this coming from someone who thinks Francisco stinks. Ok I'm exaggerating but the point stands if one is serious about competing then they add solid guys not below average ones.Solid guys already have major league jobs and are not signing AAA contracts in the middle of the season after a release.

I could understand the consternation if WJ was a constant dumpster diver, but he has not done a whole lot of that. The marginal guys he has brought in, like a Nix or Gomes have contributed positively. Even Cairo has been a solid contributor. Cabrera is slumping now, so the chirping about him is picking up, but even that dreaded move has had positive contributions, and has been at worst neutral except for a little extra cash spent that Janish probably would have given better value at this point.

But a player like GMJ, who had success in a ballpark like GAB, seems like someone WJ is hoping to catch lightning in a bottle in case of injury or someone like Stubbs falls off the cliff completely. That is done by any GM who is doing his job. Only the names change.

pedro
06-24-2010, 11:34 AM
In 2003, that wasn't the case, that's the point. In 2003 he didn't have two years as a director of baseball development. He had no experience what-so-ever. In 2003 this guy was just some knucklehead playing fantasy baseball with his friends.

Somebody took this guy, with absolutely no experience, and made him director of baseball development ... then shortly after, GM.

He was a oft-injured division 1 player with no, nada, zip experience in baseball. Andrew Friedman was injured his Freshman and Sophmore years at Tulane, and didn't play past then as far as I can tell. I have no doubts we have posters on this forum that have had more impact at a Division 1 school than Friedman.

In 2003 he was working at an investment bank. Zero baseball experience. None. Nada. He wasn't a scout. He hadn't even worked as a gopher or clubhouse attendant. Hell, I doubt he even sold hot dogs at a game.

He was a baseball fan. He more than likely posted on some forums. He played fantasy baseball with his buddies.

The fact that someone then tabbed him as a smart guy that could be valuable to the organization then led him to be hired for two years as director of baseball development under the tutelage of Gerry Hunsicker. Before that he just a successful dude working in the investment banking industry.

I'm not saying your average message board poster would make a good GM. I am saying that this idea that only those that have spent their whole lives in baseball could possibly be successful as a GM is pure hogwash, and this guy shows it.

Successful people are quite often not subject matter experts. They are leaders.

Baseball is about 30 years behind other industries in becoming efficient. However, like it or not, it has been taking hold and will be accellerating over the next decade.

GL

It's still an outlier situation and more often than not such a move would IMO fail spectacularily. To me the lesson to be learned is that Friedman is an exceptionally talented person, not "any dude with access to fangraphs who read an article on UZR once could do it".

redsmetz
06-24-2010, 11:39 AM
So I'm guessing that we still haven't signed Gary Matthews Jr. right? Is Generalissimo Franco still dead too?

gonelong
06-24-2010, 01:26 PM
It's still an outlier situation and more often than not such a move would IMO fail spectacularily. To me the lesson to be learned is that Friedman is an exceptionally talented person, not "any dude with access to fangraphs who read an article on UZR once could do it".



Yeah, it's not like you could just take a successful person from another industry with a sharp mind and make him a GM and expect to have any kind of success.




"any dude with access to fangraphs who read an article on UZR once could do it"


One of these is my quote, one is not.

Of course it's an outlier situation. Baseball has been an old boys network for decades. This is how you get the Reds hiring a lifelong "baseball man" in O'Brien. O'Brien and his decades of baseball immersion (and hey, his dad was a successful executive, so we have to take him!) were clearly overmatched, while this guy was up to speed and making hay in a few short years. It's interesting to me because of the two extremes here. On one hand you have a guy that is smart, with no experience. On the other hand you have a guy with loads of experience, but can't seem to apply it. (Everybody take the first pitch? Really?)

You get smart people and teach them the subject matter. You weave people and experience from inside your industry with smart people outside your industry. It gives you a fresh take on things, new ideas, new perspectives. It's not at all a coincidence that the Rays GM speaks of positive arbitrage opportunities in player acquisition. He has taken a common practice in his old industry and applied it in his new one. For some, this is laughable, absurd. You can't possibly make this work without the decades of baseball experience. So for every :laugh: this notion has received over the years on this message board, this guy flips back a :p:.

Someone will copy this move. Maybe it will fail spectaculaly, but I doubt it will fail any worse than the O'Brien hire.

GL

pedro
06-24-2010, 01:39 PM
One of these is my quote, one is not.

Of course it's an outlier situation. Baseball has been an old boys network for decades. This is how you get the Reds hiring a lifelong "baseball man" in O'Brien. O'Brien and his decades of baseball immersion (and hey, his dad was a successful executive, so we have to take him!) were clearly overmatched, while this guy was up to speed and making hay in a few short years. It's interesting to me because of the two extremes here. On one hand you have a guy that is smart, with no experience. On the other hand you have a guy with loads of experience, but can't seem to apply it. (Everybody take the first pitch? Really?)

You get smart people and teach them the subject matter. You weave people and experience from inside your industry with smart people outside your industry. It gives you a fresh take on things, new ideas, new perspectives. It's not at all a coincidence that the Rays GM speaks of positive arbitrage opportunities in player acquisition. He has taken a common practice in his old industry and applied it in his new one. For some, this is laughable, absurd. You can't possibly make this work without the decades of baseball experience. So for every :laugh: this notion has received over the years on this message board, this guy flips back a :p:.

Someone will copy this move. Maybe it will fail spectaculaly, but I doubt it will fail any worse than the O'Brien hire.

GL


I'm not defending the "old boys network" at all. Really I'm not. I'm just trying to provide some balance against the idea, not necessarily advanced by you, that years of experience and domain knowledge mean nothing.

Dan O'Brien was a bad choice for numerouse reasons, none of which had to do with his experience.

Roy Tucker
06-24-2010, 01:42 PM
These RZ discussions about the end of the bench sure do get heated.

More caveman thinking... GMJ is organizational depth in case Dickerson goes 0-50 and Stubbs breaks an ankle. They then have a guy at AAA that can play MLB-level CF and stand at the plate and resemble a MLB hitter.

While we weren't watching, Jocketty built a nice club. I'll trust his judgement as the if and when GMJ gets called up.

westofyou
06-24-2010, 01:46 PM
Dan O'Brien was a bad choice for numerouse reasons, none of which had to do with his experience.
Yes he was, the game has had outliers before, Charlie O and Frank Lane come to mind, it's also had numerous legacy guys, some crap, others like Bill Veeck, it takes all kinds to innovate ideas in a sport, but baseball is no different than the others in changing the landscape, it's hard to break into the inner circle of the business model.

nate
06-24-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm not defending the "old boys network" at all. Really I'm not. I'm just trying to provide some balance against the idea, not necessarily advanced by you, that years of experience and domain knowledge mean nothing.

I certainly don't think years of experiences means nothing.

I say the fog of tradition obscures philosophy that might lead to better results.

REDREAD
06-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Accepting what you're saying. Then Matthews is planning on being back in the majors, at Cincinnati. If he is, Baker will use him.


Again, no basis for this assumption. Dusty came in with a reputation for playing undeserving veterans and ruining pitching arms, but I see no evidence of this in Cincinnati.

To the contary, Baker lobbied hard to get Stanton off the team, despite the FO's reluctance to release him.

If you point me on example in Cincy where Baker has benched an obviously deserving kid in favor of a washed up vet, you might have a case.

Is Matthews washed up? Probably. But it's not a given that he's going to even make the ML club, much less steal a significant amount of playing time from the youngsters.

TRF
06-24-2010, 02:40 PM
Again, no basis for this assumption. Dusty came in with a reputation for playing undeserving veterans and ruining pitching arms, but I see no evidence of this in Cincinnati.

To the contary, Baker lobbied hard to get Stanton off the team, despite the FO's reluctance to release him.

If you point me on example in Cincy where Baker has benched an obviously deserving kid in favor of a washed up vet, you might have a case.

Is Matthews washed up? Probably. But it's not a given that he's going to even make the ML club, much less steal a significant amount of playing time from the youngsters.

He hasn't had the vets to play over the youngsters. I give Walt the credit for that. But if he's signed, and gets recalled, you can bet he'll be seeing a lot of starts in CF.

REDREAD
06-24-2010, 02:44 PM
He hasn't had the vets to play over the youngsters. I give Walt the credit for that. But if he's signed, and gets recalled, you can bet he'll be seeing a lot of starts in CF.

Ok, that's fair enough.

I can understand the fear that Gary Matthews will play. I just think Dusty will put him at the end of the depth chart if he's called up, unless one of the kids or Gomes really falls off a cliff as Freel did in 2006. I guess we can wait and see.

westofyou
06-24-2010, 02:53 PM
He hasn't had the vets to play over the youngsters. I give Walt the credit for that. But if he's signed, and gets recalled, you can bet he'll be seeing a lot of starts in CF.

$100 says he doesn't.

Anyone can look at the history of Dusty's CF choices through his managing career and see little of older players in that position.

TRF
06-24-2010, 02:55 PM
$100 says he doesn't.

Anyone can look at the history of Dusty's CF choices through his managing career and see little of older players in that position.

I'm asking because I don't know.. did he have them? Did he have any older CF's on his rosters? And how many of them were son's of lifelong friends. It's like a perfect storm of bad ideas.

And I'm not a Dusty basher at all. I prefer to bash Walt. :)

westofyou
06-24-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm asking because I don't know.. did he have them? Did he have any older CF's on his rosters? And how many of them were son's of lifelong friends. It's like a perfect storm of bad ideas.

And I'm not a Dusty basher at all. I prefer to bash Walt. :)

How many were lifelong friends kids?

Seriously??

Give me a break

TRF
06-24-2010, 03:14 PM
How many were lifelong friends kids?

Seriously??

Give me a break

Because Dusty isn't human? Because there is no precedent for nepotism with him?

Actually, give me a break. baseball is played in a human world, filled with human tendencies. I asked a question for a reason answer it or be snarky to someone else. I've done my share of defending Dusty on this board same as you. I think he's a pretty good manager, especially of personalities, handles problems well. I also think he has a tendency to play certain types of players over others IF HE HAS THEM. And that's just human nature. I don't fault him for it.

If Stubbs were optioned this week and GMJ were signed, he's be in CF within 2 games. I firmly believe it. Because sometimes human circumstances dictate our decisions.

oy flippin vey.

pedro
06-24-2010, 03:18 PM
If Stubbs were optioned this week and GMJ were signed, he's be in CF within 2 games. I firmly believe it. Because sometimes human circumstances dictate our decisions.

oy flippin vey.

Then I just don't even know what to say.

Oy vey indeed.

pedro
06-24-2010, 03:19 PM
oogy boogy oogy... a spook in every closet.

edabbs44
06-24-2010, 03:28 PM
If Stubbs were optioned this week and GMJ were signed, he's be in CF within 2 games. I firmly believe it. Because sometimes human circumstances dictate our decisions.

oy flippin vey.

That might be true. Him or Heisey. But who says that Stubbs is being optioned?

TRF
06-24-2010, 03:35 PM
That might be true. Him or Heisey. But who says that Stubbs is being optioned?

No one. I said IF. or if he got hurt. Or even if Heisey got hurt. I think we'd see a lot of GMJ. It's my opinion.

OnBaseMachine
06-24-2010, 06:28 PM
From the Reds official twitter page:

Reds sign Gary Matthews Jr. to minor league deal, sent to Louisville.

http://twitter.com/CincinnatiReds

Plus Plus
06-24-2010, 07:55 PM
http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/06/reds_sign_matthews.html

Sheldon's article on the Matthews Jr. signing.

Gallen5862
06-24-2010, 08:10 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Reds Sign Gary Matthews Jr.
By Luke Adams [June 24 at 4:20pm CST]
The Reds officially signed Gary Matthews Jr. to a minor league deal and assigned him to Triple A Louisville. The team confirmed the deal (via Twitter) three days after Yahoo's Tim Brown first reported it (via Twitter). The agreement comes less than a week after Matthews was released by the Mets.

The 35-year-old had over a year and a half left on a five-year, $50MM contract at the time of his release, but most of that money will be paid by the Angels and Mets. The Reds will only owe Matthews the pro-rated portion of the major league minimum if he reaches the big leagues this year.

After the Angels dealt him to the Mets this winter, Matthews struggled in 65 plate appearances with the club, hitting .190/.266/.241. The Reds must see something in the outfielder they like though. They reportedly had interest in Matthews this spring, when he was still a Met.

CesarGeronimo
06-24-2010, 08:18 PM
I agree with you, TRF, that if the Reds lose a centerfielder, then we'll see a lot of Matthews Jr. I think there's a good chance we will see a lot of him anyway because if he hits decently at Triple A he'll replace the next Reds outfielder to get hurt or to get into a long slump. Once he's with the big league club, I think he'll play more than many of us will be comfortable with (how about the Jocketty quote from Mark Sheldon that says Matthews appears to play better when he gets a chance to play a lot?!). People say he's minor league fodder, but that's not what I get from Jocketty's comments and not what I believe follows from the fact that the Reds were reportedly trying to pick him up before the season.

TheNext44
06-24-2010, 09:01 PM
Dusty: My buddy's kid is on the waiver wire. Let's pick him up.

Walt: I told you before, he's done. That's why we didn't trade for him with the Angels.

Dusty: How about, after he clears waivers, and no one else wants him, we sign him.

Walt: To a minor league deal with no promises he ever gets called up.

Dusty: Deal.

mbgrayson
06-24-2010, 09:04 PM
Worrisome comments from Sheldon's blog:


"In the past, he showed that if he plays a lot, he's a better player," general manager Walt Jocketty said. "He hasn't had that opportunity with the Angels or Mets the last couple of years."

Very scary thought.....

mth123
06-24-2010, 09:42 PM
Silver lining. He's a better player than Willy T.

TheNext44
06-24-2010, 09:45 PM
Silver lining. He's a better player than Willy T.

Maybe, technically. But which tastes better, a cat turd or a rat turd?

Blitz Dorsey
06-24-2010, 09:55 PM
Why do people get all bent out of shape about a vet signing a minor league deal? He's nothing more than insurance in case we have a couple injuries at CF (like both Stubbs and Heisey go down).

Captain Hook
06-24-2010, 10:21 PM
Why do people get all bent out of shape about a vet signing a minor league deal? He's nothing more than insurance in case we have a couple injuries at CF (like both Stubbs and Heisey go down).

I agree and if he doesn't hit the cover off the ball over the next month or two in AAA he'll probably be cut loose or maybe he'll just give up.Even if he does hit well and everyone stays healthy on the big league club we will never see him in a Reds uniform.I suppose there's a chance he is called up but that's only if he's killing it down on the farm and if that happens there will be people hear calling for a promotion even before the necessary injury or major slump happens.

RED VAN HOT
06-24-2010, 11:12 PM
cheap insurance.... needed because of Dickerson. He could also be useful in September after roster expansion.

redsmetz
06-24-2010, 11:18 PM
Dusty: My buddy's kid is on the waiver wire. Let's pick him up.

Walt: I told you before, he's done. That's why we didn't trade for him with the Angels.

Dusty: How about, after he clears waivers, and no one else wants him, we sign him.

Walt: To a minor league deal with no promises he ever gets called up.

Dusty: Deal.

We can fantasize that conversations come down like this, but in reality, it's more likely that it was more like what Walt himself described, get him some AB's down in AAA (where, per Walt, there was a need for a CFer anyway). Costs next to nothing and if, a need arises and if Matthews has had any success, then he's available. I really don't buy this palace intrigue malarkey and I don't believe Dusty Baker salivates at veterans or favors to buddy's sons or any of that hooey.

OnBaseMachine
06-24-2010, 11:34 PM
Worrisome comments from Sheldon's blog:



Very scary thought.....

Very scary indeed, as is this quote:


"Hopefully, if he can get back, at some point he can help us at the Major League level," Jocketty said.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100624&content_id=11542918&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

I really, really hope we don't see Matthews Jr. in a Reds uniform.

Always Red
06-24-2010, 11:35 PM
I really don't buy this palace intrigue malarkey and I don't believe Dusty Baker salivates at veterans or favors to buddy's sons or any of that hooey.

Dusty doesn't need to do any favors for Sarge or GMJ; the Angels already did so by signing him to that huge contract. ;)

Spring~Fields
06-24-2010, 11:59 PM
Again, no basis for this assumption. Dusty came in with a reputation for playing undeserving veterans and ruining pitching arms, but I see no evidence of this in Cincinnati.

To the contary, Baker lobbied hard to get Stanton off the team, despite the FO's reluctance to release him.

If you point me on example in Cincy where Baker has benched an obviously deserving kid in favor of a washed up vet, you might have a case.

Is Matthews washed up? Probably. But it's not a given that he's going to even make the ML club, much less steal a significant amount of playing time from the youngsters.

:laugh:

I just have to ask.

Where do you get from quoting this below, what you are creatively responding?



Originally Posted by Spring~Fields
Accepting what you're saying. Then Matthews is planning on being back in the majors, at Cincinnati. If he is, Baker will use him.

A. Accepting what you had written - True
B. Matthews is planning on being back in the majors - True
C. If he is with Cincinnati, Baker will use him - True,
He uses all his players.

I am laughing because I read and re-read your response and it doesn’t go with that quote. You just took off and started creatively writing.

Besides that, Baker doesn’t “bench” anyone does he?

You don’t have to bench a player, you simply don’t give them the playing time. Even Jocketty in speaking of Matthews, was quoted saying that, the more he plays the better he gets.

It would follow then that players that don’t get the playing time will regress. So you don’t give the young guys enough playing time, and you getting a self-fulfilling prophecy, see experienced major league players are needed, and they bring them in.

You use the word, “kids” you are talking about professional sports and professional athletes aren’t you?

There is a difference in having a preference for major league experienced players over inexperienced major league players.

I can't see how anyone would deny that almost any professional sports manager's or coaches in baseball, basketball or football would prefer to have experienced players over inexperienced?

Why wouldn't they?

Dusty Baker is no different.

I don’t care if he plays major league experienced players. Though it might help if they are better than Bako, Hairston Jr., Patterson, Tevaras, Cabrera, Nix, McDonald, Matthews etc.

Kids?
Have you studied the Reds roster?

I think you will see what is promoted as a young team implying filled with young players, is not quite true.



Are you talking about these kids?
Arthur Rhodes 40
Miguel Cairo 36
Francisco Cordero 35
Orlando Cabrera 35
Scott Rolen 35
Ramon Hernandez 34
Corky Miller 34
Bronson Arroyo 33
Aaron Harang 32
Jonny Gomes 29
Laynce Nix 29
Nick Masset 28
Brandon Phillips 28

These kids?
Micah Owings 27
Paul Janish 27
Sam LeCure 26
Joey Votto 26
Chris Heisey 25
Drew Stubbs 25
Danny Herrera 25
Logan Ondrusek 25




Or these kids?
Johnny Cueto 24
Jordan Smith 24
Jay Bruce 23
Mike Leake 22


Psst, psst, has any Reds starting pitcher excelled under Dusty Baker? Reached expectations or exceeded them? Bullpen pitchers? Not named Rhodes?

How about any young Reds position player, any of them reach or exceed expectations, not named Votto, under Baker?

Slyder
06-25-2010, 01:43 AM
Why do people get all bent out of shape about a vet signing a minor league deal? He's nothing more than insurance in case we have a couple injuries at CF (like both Stubbs and Heisey go down).

*see one Patterson, Corey* He was brought in as "insurance" and ended up getting outplayed every step of the way and still ended up contributing to the sinking of the season as Baker reverted to Duhhhsty and constantly ran him out there to go 0-4, 1-5. At least in Patterson's case he could play defense.

You mean we couldnt find ANYONE who hasnt been done since they started seriously testing for HgH to be "insurance". I mean we could probably elevate someone from A ball and get the type of production that Matthews has given his teams the past couple seasons because Dusty wouldnt play them.

Slyder
06-25-2010, 02:17 AM
I'm sure someone who can follow Carolina closer will correct me but is Sean Henry a CF? Even at the caliber of Jay Bruce in CENTER? He's 25, hitting pretty well in Carolina maybe push him a bit since he's already at that washout point?

Ron Madden
06-25-2010, 06:09 AM
What's done is done. I hope we never see GMJ on the 25 man roster.

nate
06-25-2010, 09:53 AM
What's done is done. I hope we never see GMJ on the 25 man roster.

Hope springs eternal!

:cool:

membengal
06-25-2010, 10:40 AM
Louisville REALLY needs a jumpstart offensively.

I just don't think GMJ is the one to get them out of their offensive issues.

REDREAD
06-25-2010, 11:42 AM
Worrisome comments from Sheldon's blog:

<comment from walt about GMJ being better with playing time>

Very scary thought.....

Just take comfort in this. When Miles was acquired, Walt said he was "a winner" and something about him being an asset. Miles was later released, despite the Reds owing him some money.

You've got to expect a GM to say positive things about a new signing.
Walt isn't going to tell the press "Well, I'm not even sure if GMJr has a 5% chance of ever making the bigs again, but Louisville needs some fodder" :)

REDREAD
06-25-2010, 11:58 AM
:laugh:

I just have to ask.

Where do you get from quoting this below, what you are creatively responding?



Well, all I can say is that I do my best to accurately quote what I am responding to, and not take things out of context.
I certainly don't have an ax to grind with you, I'm just here to talk.




I am laughing because I read and re-read your response and it doesn’t go with that quote. You just took off and started creatively writing.


Glad I could entertain you :)



Besides that, Baker doesn’t “bench” anyone does he?

You don’t have to bench a player, you simply don’t give them the playing time. Even Jocketty in speaking of Matthews, was quoted saying that, the more he plays the better he gets.


That's what benching means.. don't give them any playing time.

Every player will say they are better with regular playing time. Doesn't mean that Dusty will give it to him.





It would follow then that players that don’t get the playing time will regress. So you don’t give the young guys enough playing time, and you getting a self-fulfilling prophecy, see experienced major league players are needed, and they bring them in.


Ok, give me an example of a young player that got shafted on playing time under Dusty. That's all I'm asking.
Certain young players, like Larson, Ray Olmedo, William Bergolla, Anderson Machado.. they aren't going to get better, regardless of how much playing time they get at the major league level. Playing time is a precious resource, so smart clubs don't waste playing time on young players that are not ML material.. I think Walt and Dusty (and Wayne) have done a pretty good job on not wasting playing time on non-prospects.



You use the word, “kids” you are talking about professional sports and professional athletes aren’t you?


I'm over 40, so I'm allowed to call them kids :)





[code]
Are you talking about these kids?
Arthur Rhodes 40
Miguel Cairo 36
Francisco Cordero 35
Orlando Cabrera 35
Scott Rolen 35
Ramon Hernandez 34
Corky Miller 34
Bronson Arroyo 33
Aaron Harang 32
Jonny Gomes 29
Laynce Nix 29
Nick Masset 28
Brandon Phillips 28


Ok. so tell me where the younger option is for Rolen, Gomes, Nix, etc..
Anyone on your "old" list. Also, remember that we are trying to win games, so there can't be a drop off in performance. What great prospect is languishing in Louisville or not getting much playing time on the big league roster?




Psst, psst, has any Reds starting pitcher excelled under Dusty Baker? Reached expectations or exceeded them? Bullpen pitchers? Not named Rhodes?


Sure, a lot of pitchers have done well under Baker. Arroyo, Leake, and Ceuto are doing well this year. I would say that based on their skill set, they are excelling. What more can Dusty be expected to do with them?
Masset was good last year, and he is showing signs of getting better this year. Time will tell.








How about any young Reds position player, any of them reach or exceed expectations, not named Votto, under Baker?

Heisley and Stubbs are doing fine, considering their age. Bruce is getting better. Gomes isn't "old" and he's doing fine. Phillips is doing good. Hannigan too.. Let me ask it this way.. what starting player is under performing based on his skill set? Maybe Bruce and Stubbs, but they aren't dragging the team down, it's just they have a lot of untapped potential, which is going to take time to develop. IMO, it's not realistic to expect every young position player to come up and perform at a Votto level. No team in baseball has a farm system that good.

Spring~Fields
06-25-2010, 12:06 PM
Well, all I can say is that I do my best to accurately quote what I am responding to, and not take things out of context.
I certainly don't have an ax to grind with you, I'm just here to talk.

Glad I could entertain you :)



Nah, no problems here. I just got a kick out of you and me in that. I was like, Huh!! :)

Patterson over Bruce in Bakers first season
Bako over ?

Hernandez over Hanigan, and Tevaras over Dickerson or others in the second season.

Continued use of Stubbs, and very little consistent exposure for Heisey.

Injured Cabrera who is struggling for some time now with that alleged injury and batting leadoff with a very low OBP. Over Janish who is superior on defense and might be equal on offense.

:p:

Other's ? I could not tell you, I never seen those with lesser experience get enough playing time in the field or the PA or AB to tell. Why's that?

REDREAD
06-25-2010, 12:16 PM
Nah, no problems here. I just got a kick out of you and me in that. I was like, Huh!! :)

Patterson over Bruce in Bakers first season



Sure, I was just joking back, no hard feelings.

In that season, our GM decided to keep Bruce in the minors.
Baker can't play Bruce if Bruce is in AAA.
Only Bruce was called up, he got plenty of playing time.
Patterson was pretty much benched until the team got a lot of OF injuries towards the end of the year. IIRC, they had to call up some horrible players from AAA just to fill out the roster, that season. But Bruce's PT did not suffer.





Hernandez over Hanigan, and Tevaras over Dickerson or others in the second season.


I'm not really convinced that Hannigan is an upgrade. Their OPS was nearly identical last year. Plus, there is the intangible benefit of Hernandez (experience calling games, ability to speak Spanish), that the club values.
Actually, I looked up the 2009 stats, and Hannigan got into 90 games, 293 plate appearances. Hernandez got into 81 games and got 331 plate appearances (some at 1b).. So it looks like the playing time for them was pretty even. Seems pretty fair to me, since their offense contribution is comparable. I really don't feel like I am qualified enough to argue their defensive merits.






Continued use of Stubbs, and very little consistent exposure for Heisey.


Stubbs is the #1 draft pick, and is percieved as having the higher upside.
Stubbs is not an older player. I was asking for examples of where a vet displaced a kid.




Injured Cabrera who is struggling for some time now with that alleged injury and batting leadoff with a very low OBP.


Toss Janish into the same bucket as Olmedo and Machado (although Janish's fielding is much better). Janish is a utility player at best. He's never hit in the minors, no reason to expect that he'll start to hit now. If the Reds had better depth at infield, Janish wouldn't make the roster.

Matt700wlw
06-25-2010, 08:49 PM
Food for thought from Lance's blog

Gary Matthews from the leadoff spot, for his career: 275 starts, .282 BA, .350 OBP
He's had the most success in his career from that spot in the order.

OnBaseMachine
06-27-2010, 01:18 AM
FWIW, Matthews Jr. made his Louisville debut tonight and went 0-for-6 with 5 K's.

westofyou
06-27-2010, 01:22 AM
FWIW, Matthews Jr. made his Louisville debut tonight and went 0-for-6 with 5 K's.

He probably wasn't leading off though.

TheNext44
06-27-2010, 01:38 AM
FWIW, Matthews Jr. made his Louisville debut tonight and went 0-for-6 with 5 K's.

That's actually a good day for him lately.

KronoRed
06-27-2010, 01:43 AM
That's a line for the books.

RedsManRick
06-27-2010, 09:19 PM
He probably wasn't leading off though.

I'm guessing that was sarcasm... but, yeah, he was leading off.

westofyou
06-27-2010, 09:34 PM
I'm guessing that was sarcasm... but, yeah, he was leading off.

Well that shoots a hole in Lance's theory, back to the drawing board!

Tom Servo
06-27-2010, 09:44 PM
But with regular playing time, he can get that elusive 6th strikeout.

TheNext44
06-27-2010, 10:14 PM
Three K's is a hat trick, four... the Golden Sombero, what's 5 K's in a game called? The Matthews?

westofyou
06-27-2010, 10:19 PM
Three K's is a hat trick, four... the Golden Sombero, what's 5 K's in a game called? The Matthews?

platinum sombrero

TheNext44
06-27-2010, 10:25 PM
platinum sombrero

Better trademark that. :)

Cedric
06-27-2010, 10:37 PM
Better trademark that. :)

That one has been around for ages. They actually had an "ask Marty" segment about this very subject on Thursday. Weird timing!

Big Klu
06-27-2010, 11:09 PM
platinum sombrero

I prefer "Platinum Chapeau", because failing that many times seems like such a French thing to do! :p:

Spring~Fields
06-28-2010, 12:47 AM
Three K's is a hat trick, four... the Golden Sombero, what's 5 K's in a game called? The Matthews?

Yesterday when he struck out five times I joked on the minor league thread, shouldn't he be starting in Dayton instead of Louisville.

What is it with words anyway, saying or writing something seems to correlate to some cause and effect phenomena, causing the opposite to occur. :alien:

They said, God called that which was not as though it was, and created it. I call that which is not as it is not, and somehow the opposite happens. I must be batting on the wrong team or something, clearly I have my wave lengths crossed. :bang:

Today he goes 3 for 5 with a double, leading off.

I am going to stop writing or talking about him unless he pays me a fee, when he makes it back in July/August. :D

nate
06-28-2010, 10:42 AM
If he's the Sarge, shouldn't it be the platinum beret?

toledodan
06-28-2010, 11:02 AM
Yesterday when he struck out five times I joked on the minor league thread, shouldn't he be starting in Dayton instead of Louisville.

crossed. :bang:

Today he goes 3 for 5 with a double, leading off.

:D



the sad part after a couple of games like that he will find himself up with the reds.

Chip R
06-28-2010, 11:08 AM
If he's the Sarge, shouldn't it be the platinum beret?

His dad's the Sarge. I always called him the Private.

pedro
06-28-2010, 11:28 AM
the sad part after a couple of games like that he will find himself up with the reds.

If he doesn't absoluely rake at AAA he's more likely to be cut.

redsmetz
06-28-2010, 11:54 AM
If he doesn't absoluely rake at AAA he's more likely to be cut.

I agree with your assessment. I thought Dusty was as blunt as I ever heard him, when talking about Matthews when he said "he's got to get his act together" and indicating that if he didn't, he didn't have any place here.