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redssince75
06-22-2010, 05:55 PM
New member here, so forgive me if this was discussed in game thread or elsewhere.

So by late Sunday afternoon we hadn't scored in like, forever. In the 2nd inning we have men on 1st & 3rd, 1 out, with Stubbs up.

In the 7th inning we have men on 2nd & 3rd, 1 out, with Cabrera up. We are down 1-0 at this point.

Does either situation call for a squeeze? Stubbs, who hasn't hit a lick lately, would seem to be a good squeeze candidate. By the 7th, I know he wants to take a 2-1 lead with 2 chances at a hit -- but by the 18723rd consecutive inning with no runs, don't you want to at least try to squeeze one out to tie the game?

Did anyone think of this on Sunday?

bgwilly31
06-22-2010, 06:28 PM
The squeeze play is a rarity in the league these days.

Sure its a possibility and those situations may or may not have been good for it. All depends on the feel of the game and where the defense was playing.

Dusty actually did try a suicide squeeze a couple of weeks back. It was unsuccesfull.

The Voice of IH
06-22-2010, 07:25 PM
complaining about Dusty after 2 posts....you will fit in here well :thumbup:

I am not a fan of the squeeze play, I prefer to get them in the old fashion way, getting the ball in the outfield. But it also depends on who is up, and who is on third, you would not happen to know who was on at the time?

Griffey012
06-22-2010, 07:49 PM
complaining about Dusty after 2 posts....you will fit in here well :thumbup:

I am not a fan of the squeeze play, I prefer to get them in the old fashion way, getting the ball in the outfield. But it also depends on who is up, and who is on third, you would not happen to know who was on at the time?

I agree, it all depends on who is at the plate, who is on 3rd, and who is pitching. With OCab at the plate, I am more confident he gets the run in either by a base hit, ground out, or SAC fly than a successful squeeze. With Stubbs I am not even remotely confident of him making contact, but not sure how good of an actual sacrifice bunter he is either.

I don't know who was running or pitching these times, if it was a guy like League who is all over the place with movement I am never gonna squeeze, but if its a guy who throws with mediocrity and not a lot of movement I'd be willing to put it on.


FYI Redssince75, you might want to change the title of the thread to involving a squeeze play...else it will probably just turn into a bash the coaching thread. And the squeeze play is a good topic of discussion.

Welcome to the board.

Vottomatic
06-22-2010, 10:20 PM
For me, the problem was that Stubbs and Cabrera were even in the lineup.

Stubbs has been a strikeout machine of late, and Cabrera's average is nosediving since his ankle started hurting.

Shoulda had other players in there.

Kingspoint
06-23-2010, 02:19 AM
Dusty Baker got his Coaching experience while working under Roger Craig in San Francisco. Nobody squeezed more than Roger Craig (no jokes here, please). Nobody was more successful at getting guys in from 3rd w/ less than 2 outs than Roger Craig. Yet, Dusty is very poor at this. It's as if he didn't learn a thing from Roger Craig. It baffles me. Roger Craig even had his power hitters, like Chili Davis, laying down squeeze bunts. He didn't care. His success rate was in the 90-percentile w/ Runners on 3rd and less than 2 outs. The REDS are less than 50%, which is atrocious.

You bring up a good point, and while it seems like "complaining" to some people (they always need sunflowers and roses whenever they read a post), it's a legitimate question. It baffles me, too, as I think the failure of not getting a runner in from 3rd and less than 2 outs is the responsibility of the Manager. If his players fail to execute it, then it's because the Manager failed to teach them how to execute it properly. I've seen the best (Roger Craig) and the worst (Dusty Baker) in this area. The squeeze play should definitely be used more often. It's an indefensible play. If a pitcher chooses not to throw a strike, then it just puts more runners on base, and then the next guy attempts the same play. Eventually, the pitcher has to throw a strike for a squeeze to be attempted, and the runner will always beat the throw back to the Catcher no matter where the 3rd Baseman and 1st Baseman are playing. If they are too shallow, then bunt it over their heads, which is just as easy. If any player can't bunt, then that's the fault of the Manager. There's no excuse for not being able to teach everyone how to bunt properly.

texasdave
06-23-2010, 02:29 AM
Whenever I attend a game at Minute Maid to watch the Reds I would try to get there as early as possible to watch batting practice. At the beginning of each player's turn they were usually required to bunt the ball twice. Most players just stood there and made half-hearted stabs at the ball before settling in for what they must have considered "real" batting practice. I guess they felt it was a waste of time to actually learn how to bunt the ball when they would never be called upon to do it during the game. We all know that chicks don't dig the short bunt. But being at lease semi-proficient at bunting is a skill that has in the past and will in the future win ballgames. I find it incomprehensible that a player has reached the major leagues and can't be relied upon to lay down a bunt if the game situation calls for it.

PS I already know. This is a borderline ridiculous opinion.

bshall2105
06-23-2010, 02:32 AM
Also does anybody else think that Dusty is afraid to offend his veteran players. There are many examples of this:
Harang starting opening day last 2 years
Patterson,Taveras kept in much too long
Cordero struggling
Masset given chance after chance in the 8th til it got too bad
Cabrera never gets an off day in favor of Janish
These are just five examples but Dusty seems to fear having a bad reputation with his older guys.

Reds42MLB
06-23-2010, 03:10 AM
Or maybe he is just loyal to veteran players, especially when none of the young guys are stepping up? I would love for someone to spin that around and try to make that out as a bad quality Dusty has. Don't blame Dusty for some of our youth not forcing him to put them in the lineup with their play.

bshall2105
06-23-2010, 04:02 AM
Or maybe he is just loyal to veteran players, especially when none of the young guys are stepping up? I would love for someone to spin that around and try to make that out as a bad quality Dusty has. Don't blame Dusty for some of our youth not forcing him to put them in the lineup with their play.

I'll just say this, I like Dusty Baker and I want him back next year.:eek: But his loyalty is taken too far sometimes, and it gets in the way of him making the best decisions for the team. For the most part I agree with how he handles his veterans, but you have to admit he goes overboard sometimes.

texasdave
06-23-2010, 08:10 AM
Orlando Cabrera. That didn't take long to come up with one example. Since May 23rd OCab has posted this slash line: .181/.216/.257/.473. Drink those numbers in, they are mighty impressive. If you like sub-Taverasian slash lines that is. Cabrera himself has stated that he he nursing an injury. Put him on the 15-day DL and bring up Sutton. If you don't think he needs the full 15 days, make it retroactive. If Cabrera is gonna OPS in the sub-.500 range I will take Janish's glove every day of the week. Let Cabrera have some time off to get healed properly. But I'm betting Dusty keeps running him out there.

swaisuc
06-23-2010, 09:55 AM
Orlando Cabrera. That didn't take long to come up with one example. Since May 23rd OCab has posted this slash line: .181/.216/.257/.473. Drink those numbers in, they are mighty impressive. If you like sub-Taverasian slash lines that is. Cabrera himself has stated that he he nursing an injury. Put him on the 15-day DL and bring up Sutton. If you don't think he needs the full 15 days, make it retroactive. If Cabrera is gonna OPS in the sub-.500 range I will take Janish's glove every day of the week. Let Cabrera have some time off to get healed properly. But I'm betting Dusty keeps running him out there.

Retroactive to what? He played yesterday.

I generally agree with giving Janish more time and potentially even making him the #1, but putting a veteran player who has contributed this year on the DL when he probably doesn't feel he belongs there isn't a great idea.

texasdave
06-23-2010, 10:16 AM
Retroactive to what? He played yesterday.

I generally agree with giving Janish more time and potentially even making him the #1, but putting a veteran player who has contributed this year on the DL when he probably doesn't feel he belongs there isn't a great idea.

But how, exactly, is running a self-proclaimed injured 35-year old Cabrera out there day-after-day while he plays at a sub-replacement player level doing this team any good? Does his injury heal while continues to play or does it linger all year long? 15 days off might be the best thing at this point for Orlando. Are the inmates running the asylum? Management has to do what is best for the team and not the individual player IMO.

As for retroactively placing the player on the DL, the best I could find online is that a team has 10 days to make that decision. It didn't specify whether the player could play during that period or not. But, in retrospect, it makes perfect sense that the player shouldn't have played in the interim. So my bad.

CySeymour
06-23-2010, 10:43 AM
If memory serves me correct, I believe Dusty and Stubbs both have noted that Stubbs is not the best bunter in the world, hence why that may have not been such a good play.

texasdave
06-23-2010, 10:47 AM
If memory serves me correct, I believe Dusty and Stubbs both have noted that Stubbs is not the best bunter in the world, hence why that may have not been such a good play.

A player with the speed of Drew Stubbs not knowing how to bunt proficiently, incredible.

CySeymour
06-23-2010, 11:12 AM
A player with the speed of Drew Stubbs not knowing how to bunt proficiently, incredible.

Certainly. But bunting is like every other skill, some players have a nack for it, others don't. My understanding is he has worked on it, but has had trouble just getting a hang of it.

BigPoppa
06-23-2010, 12:54 PM
A player with the speed of Drew Stubbs not knowing how to bunt proficiently, incredible.


Certainly. But bunting is like every other skill, some players have a nack for it, others don't. My understanding is he has worked on it, but has had trouble just getting a hang of it.


Then Dusty, or Speier, or Jacoby, or Eric Davis, or somebody should be with him every day until he does get the hang of it. That's too valuable a tool to not have it in the toolbox.

Stubbs has the hard part....speed. Can't teach speed. You can teach bunting.

redssince75
07-01-2010, 07:34 PM
If memory serves me correct, I believe Dusty and Stubbs both have noted that Stubbs is not the best bunter in the world, hence why that may have not been such a good play.


Reviving the thread to point out today -- top of the 9th, 1 out, tie score, man on 3rd. Perfect spot to squeeze the go-ahead (winning) run in.

Same situation in the 10th -- except Stubbs at the plate. He beat out the potential DP.

I just don't understand it. Either would have been the spot to use it to put the Reds ahead.

Mr Larkin
07-01-2010, 07:52 PM
Reviving the thread to point out today -- top of the 9th, 1 out, tie score, man on 3rd. Perfect spot to squeeze the go-ahead (winning) run in.

Same situation in the 10th -- except Stubbs at the plate. He beat out the potential DP.

I just don't understand it. Either would have been the spot to use it to put the Reds ahead.

If you do not have confidence that it can work, then you can't pull that trigger.

defender
07-01-2010, 08:05 PM
Baker should get some credit for two move today. Having the IF play at double play depth in the 8th, and having smith pitch the 9th.

Mr Larkin
07-01-2010, 08:12 PM
Baker should get some credit for two move today. Having the IF play at double play depth in the 8th, and having smith pitch the 9th.

I agree, but can you imagine what would have been said about him if Smith would have blown the game in the 9th? It is easy now to say good job, but that positive reaction is nothing compared to the negative he would have received if it hadn't worked out.

I think the Reds are playing well and Dusty is doing his job. 10 over .500 on July 1 - that is a big accomplishment for a team that has struggled for respect for a decade.