2010 UC Football

[BearcatShane]

Any Bearcat Football fans on here extremely excited for the football season? Here is a look at UC's 2010 schedule:

Sat. September 4th @Fresno State 10:00PM ESPN2
Sat. September 11th Indiana State 12:00 Fox Sports Ohio
Thurs. September 16th @North Carolina State 7:30 ESPN
Sat. September 25th Oklahoma TBA TBA

Sat. October 9th Miami Ohio TBA TBA
Fri. October 15th @Louisville 8:00 ESPN
Fri. October 22nd South Florida 8:00 ESPN2
Sat. October 30th Syracuse TBA TBA

Sat. November 13th @West Virginia TBA TBA
Sat. November 20th Rutgers TBA TBA
Sat. November 27th @Uconn TBA TBA

Sat. December 4th Pittsburgh TBA ABC/ESPN or ESPN2


So 72 days until the Cats kickoff on the West Coast vs Fresno State. What is everyone's expectations of the Butch Jones led Bearcats? I think the offense will be explosive, Collaros at quarterback, Pead at running back, Binns, Woods, Hazelton, Thompkins and Barrnet will probably be the main recievers. Anyone of those guys can take it to the house at anytime. The defense will be moving back to the 4-3 so I would think they would have to be a little better this year than last year. Also, I'v been hearing that UC is about to announce 2-4 transfers from USC soon with one being a linebacker that should play right away. We should see that announced soon. I think it will be another fun year for the Bearcats and there fans. Go Cats!

[jredmo2]

Also, I'v been hearing that UC is about to announce 2-4 transfers from USC soon with one being a linebacker that should play right away. We should see that announced soon.

What what what?!! Where did you hear this from? That would be fantastic!

[Cyclone792]

I've got season tickets this year so I'm definitely looking forward to the season. Hopefully this year UC starts off with a decent ranking inside the top 25 which would give them a chance to really move up the polls if they pile on the wins.

Obviously, with their nonconference schedule this year, UC has the strength of schedule to move up quick if they start hot. I see the Fresno State game similar to last year's Rutgers opener. I don't particularly like playing on the road against a solid team to open the season, but if UC wins that game it should really give them an excellent push heading into the NC State and Oklahoma games.

[Chip R]

Also, I'v been hearing that UC is about to announce 2-4 transfers from USC soon with one being a linebacker that should play right away. We should see that announced soon.

They are going to have to take a pay cut. ;)

[dougdirt]

I expect a 10 win season and a push for another BE title. I have a lot more questions about the defense than the offense (like everyone else I am sure).

[NorrisHopper30]

Vidal Hazelton has hinted at MULTIPLE transfers from USC on his twitter.

[Roy Tucker]

The offense should light up the scoreboard again.

But the defense needs to improve considerably over the 2009 model.

[joshnky]

Also, I'v been hearing that UC is about to announce 2-4 transfers from USC soon with one being a linebacker that should play right away.

I'm not sure if this is who you're referring to, but Jordan Campbell, who was considering UC, just signed a scholarship offer with UofL. He'll likely start at LB for UofL next season.

[Sea Ray]

Aren't we missing the elephant in the room? What about the loss of Brian Kelly? How much will they miss him? How good is Butch Jones? I'm looking forward to "getting to know him" but he doesn't come across as dynamic as Kelly.

[Fon Duc Tow]

The only reason the Bearcats ascended to the level they were at was because of Brian Kelly.

I hate that he left for Notre Dame because it is back to reality for UC Football.

Say what you will about Kelly, the man is a football genius and a motivator that makes average players good, and good players great.

How many geniuses do you know named "Butch"?

... I'll eat crow if necessary but my prediction is UC doesn't sniff the top 25 for Butch's entire tenure here, except possibly the 1st couple of games this season.

[Reds4Life]

The only reason the Bearcats ascended to the level they were at was because of Brian Kelly.

I hate that he left for Notre Dame because it is back to reality for UC Football.

Say what you will about Kelly, the man is a football genius and a motivator that makes average players good, and good players great.

How many geniuses do you know named "Butch"?

... I'll eat crow if necessary but my prediction is UC doesn't sniff the top 25 for Butch's entire tenure here, except possibly the 1st couple of games this season.

You'll be eating crow. Jones had CMU in the top 25 as well last year.

[paintmered]

The only reason the Bearcats ascended to the level they were at was because of Brian Kelly.

I hate that he left for Notre Dame because it is back to reality for UC Football.

Say what you will about Kelly, the man is a football genius and a motivator that makes average players good, and good players great.

How many geniuses do you know named "Butch"?

... I'll eat crow if necessary but my prediction is UC doesn't sniff the top 25 for Butch's entire tenure here, except possibly the 1st couple of games this season.

Don't hurt yourself jumping off that bandwagon, now.

[Cedric]

It's going to be hard no matter what. Schools with little tradition don't usually sustain success in the CFB world.

One bad year and Nippert will be just like it was when I was in school.

[joshnky]

Also, I'v been hearing that UC is about to announce 2-4 transfers from USC soon with one being a linebacker that should play right away. We should see that announced soon. I think it will be another fun year for the Bearcats and there fans. Go Cats!

It seems that your expected announcement never transpired.

[Cedric]

I'm not sure if this is who you're referring to, but Jordan Campbell, who was considering UC, just signed a scholarship offer with UofL. He'll likely start at LB for UofL next season.

UofL is a perfect example of what happens to CFB teams with no tradition. There just isn't a built in fan base that can sustain bad coaches/bad years.

[jredmo2]

UofL is a perfect example of what happens to CFB teams with no tradition. There just isn't a built in fan base that can sustain bad coaches/bad years.

See:

Miami Hurricanes pre-Schnellenberger
Florida Gators pre-Spurrier
Virginia Tech pre-Beamer
Florida State pre-Bowden

All had marginal football programs before and are now national powers (to varying degrees). Not that this is the norm, but history has shown that previously marginal programs can achieve sustained success.

[joshnky]

UofL is a perfect example of what happens to CFB teams with no tradition. There just isn't a built in fan base that can sustain bad coaches/bad years.

Except that it took three years for attendance to dip by any significant measure and the football team still made more money than UC. Given the stadium expansion and new coach UofL should set attendance records this year despite a few "bad years".

So, I don't think your point holds water. In fact, I'd say UofL is a "perfect example" of how to build a sustainable program despite a lack of tradition. Use success to improve the facilities so that the downturn is short and the fans are willing to stick around. It also helps immensely that Louisville is a college town.

[Cedric]

Except that it took three years for attendance to dip by any significant measure and the football team still made more money than UC. Given the stadium expansion and new coach UofL should set attendance records this year despite a few "bad years".

So, I don't think your point holds water. In fact, I'd say UofL is a "perfect example" of how to build a sustainable program despite a lack of tradition. Use success to improve the facilities so that the downturn is short and the fans are willing to stick around. It also helps immensely that Louisville is a college town.

Louisville is irrelevant in CFB to most. Other than for a few years they just haven't mattered.

I've went to UC for undergrad and Ohio State for grad school. It's easy to see the programs with tradition and staying power and the one's who won't sustain.

Tradition, stadium, and strong recruiting base are the keys, IMO.

[Fon Duc Tow]

Don't hurt yourself jumping off that bandwagon, now.

I was never on the bandwagon. But I did recognize the Kelly-Led Bearcats as something special. Just as the Kelly-Led Fighting Irish will be something special, I imagine.

And I think Jones is a pretty good coach. I just think that UC Football is heading back where it was before Kelly got here. We shall see.

Sidenote: Cincinnati Sports Fans and their use of the term "bandwagon" has always cracked me up. People need to look that word up. :cool:

Yankees have a bandwagon? Yep.
Lakers? No question.
Steelers? Ya You betcha.
But Cincinnati Sports teams? Pulllease. Try having some success more than once every 20 years then maybe we can start talking about a bandwagon. :beerme:

Don't look now...but the Kansas City Royals Bandwagon is coming to a town near you!! ;)

[dougdirt]

Bandwagon fans are ones who jump on for success and bail when its not there. It doesn't matter how long you have success.

[Hoosier Red]

See:

Miami Hurricanes pre-Schnellenberger
Florida Gators pre-Spurrier
Virginia Tech pre-Beamer
Florida State pre-Bowden

All had marginal football programs before and are now national powers (to varying degrees). Not that this is the norm, but history has shown that previously marginal programs can achieve sustained success.

Aside from the U(who hit it big with a 2nd big coach right in a row) the other programs had the advantage of one guy coaching for at least 10 years as well.

I don't doubt that Butch Jones can continue on the path Dantonio, Kelly et al have started them on, but Cedric's correct that one bad coaching hire can really destroy any progress made to this point.

[joshnky]

Louisville is irrelevant in CFB to most. Other than for a few years they just haven't mattered.

I've went to UC for undergrad and Ohio State for grad school. It's easy to see the programs with tradition and staying power and the one's who won't sustain.

Tradition, stadium, and strong recruiting base are the keys, IMO.

I'm not quite following your argument. Are you talking about the ability to sustain a successful football program or to sustain relevancy? I'm suggesting that UofL has the foundation in place to sustain a successful program not relevancy. Relevancy comes with success. Miami was not relevant for a wide portion of this decade and Michigan is irrelevant currently. In fact, while Ohio St has been successful and relevant during the Tressel years they even endured some years where no one cared about them during Cooper's reign.

So, I agree that just like many other schools, UofL has dropped off the national scene for two years. They're hardly alone in that fall and have the framework in place to return, likely starting this year to a small degree.

I guess time will tell.

[Revering4Blue]

See:

Miami Hurricanes pre-Schnellenberger
Florida Gators pre-Spurrier
Virginia Tech pre-Beamer
Florida State pre-Bowden

All had marginal football programs before and are now national powers (to varying degrees). Not that this is the norm, but history has shown that previously marginal programs can achieve sustained success.

See also:

Kansas State pre-Snyder
Northwestern pre-Barnett
Oregon State pre-Riley

[WMR]

I'm not quite following your argument. Are you talking about the ability to sustain a successful football program or to sustain relevancy? I'm suggesting that UofL has the foundation in place to sustain a successful program not relevancy. Relevancy comes with success. Miami was not relevant for a wide portion of this decade and Michigan is irrelevant currently. In fact, while Ohio St has been successful and relevant during the Tressel years they even endured some years where no one cared about them during Cooper's reign.

So, I agree that just like many other schools, UofL has dropped off the national scene for two years. They're hardly alone in that fall and have the framework in place to return, likely starting this year to a small degree.

I guess time will tell.

Louisville fans sure are excited about their new coach Knute Rock... err, I mean Charlie Strong. :D

[Cedric]

I'm not quite following your argument. Are you talking about the ability to sustain a successful football program or to sustain relevancy? I'm suggesting that UofL has the foundation in place to sustain a successful program not relevancy. Relevancy comes with success. Miami was not relevant for a wide portion of this decade and Michigan is irrelevant currently. In fact, while Ohio St has been successful and relevant during the Tressel years they even endured some years where no one cared about them during Cooper's reign.

So, I agree that just like many other schools, UofL has dropped off the national scene for two years. They're hardly alone in that fall and have the framework in place to return, likely starting this year to a small degree.

I guess time will tell.

I reread my post and it reads a little rude, sorry for that. I'm actually kinda agreeing with you that Louisville has a better chance than most at sustaining success.
Just making the point that one bad coaching hire or a few bad seasons can kill momentum for UC. It's so hard to sustain success without tradition in this sport.

I don't really think the Florida schools are a good example to follow though. The game is already huge here and the population shift isn't coming back our way anytime soon, IMO.

The factors that created the 3 giants in Florida won't happen around here.

[bucksfan2]

Bandwagon fans are ones who jump on for success and bail when its not there. It doesn't matter how long you have success.

Who really cares? I mean do you want extra recognition if you aren't a bandwagon fan?

I have always followed UC football. Growing up in Cincinnati I was always interested in how they did, just didn't care enough to watch the games. I am an OSU fan first and foremost because I went to school there.

Bandwagon fans build or renovate stadiums. They build better and competitive practice facilities. They generate more revenue in order to not only pay coaches more but also assistant coaches. If I were a fan of UC I would want as many bandwagon fans as possible.

[Fon Duc Tow]

Bandwagon fans are ones who jump on for success and bail when its not there. It doesn't matter how long you have success.

www.dictionary.com

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:


...Sorry, that rules out the Reds, Bengals, and certainly the Bearcats. :thumbup:

[dougdirt]

www.dictionary.com

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:


...Sorry, that rules out the Reds, Bengals, and certainly the Bearcats. :thumbup:

If by mass appeal you consider the entire country, yeah, sure. If you consider mass appeal to the 2.5 million people in the greater Cincinnati metro area 'mass', then those three all count.

[Fon Duc Tow]

If by mass appeal you consider the entire country, yeah, sure. If you consider mass appeal to the 2.5 million people in the greater Cincinnati metro area 'mass', then those three all count.

Even if everyone in Cincinnati is doing something, if Cincinnati is the only city doing it, then there is no mass appeal.

Does Skyline Chili have mass appeal?

And don't say "In Cincinnati it does" because "mass" means everywhere, not just one place. That's like saying your TV has mass appeal in your house because everyone likes to watch it. :D

So again I say, if your team only does well once every 20 years or so, then there is no bandwagon. Only fans with varying degrees of the "willing suspension of disbelief." :beerme:

[Cedric]

Even if everyone in Cincinnati is doing something, if Cincinnati is the only city doing it, then there is no mass appeal.

Does Skyline Chili have mass appeal?

And don't say "In Cincinnati it does" because "mass" means everywhere, not just one place. That's like saying your TV has mass appeal in your house because everyone likes to watch it. :D

So again I say, if your team only does well once every 20 years or so, then there is no bandwagon. Only fans with varying degrees of the "willing suspension of disbelief." :beerme:

Try and explain to me what "one place" entails? Makes no sense.

So if something is popular in the USA and not the world is that "just one place"?

Weird argument man.

[joshnky]

Weird argument man.

Definitely. It seems silly to argue about whether or not a team can have a band wagon and whether someone has jumped off.

[Fon Duc Tow]

Try and explain to me what "one place" entails? Makes no sense.

So if something is popular in the USA and not the world is that "just one place"?

Weird argument man.

"Mass appeal" and "everyone in Cincinnati likes it" are not synonyms. That's my point. :beerme:

[Hoosier Red]

"Mass appeal" and "everyone in Cincinnati likes it" are not synonyms. That's my point. :beerme:

I think their points are mass appeal is relative.

By your definition nothing has mass appeal. Is there anything that more than 10% of the world population uses.(Maybe Coca Cola?)
Is there any team that more than 10% of the US population supports?(Maybe the Yankees though I doubt it.)
Even narrowing it down to Cincinnati, there's a large percentage of people who don't care about sports at all.(We call these people boring people.)

To say that within the scope of the sports following population in and around Cincinnati(which is the only sample of people that UC cares about,) the Bearcats have acheived a mass appeal of mainly bandwagon fans is accurate.

[Fon Duc Tow]

To say that within the scope of the sports following population in and around Cincinnati(which is the only sample of people that UC cares about,) the Bearcats have acheived a mass appeal of mainly bandwagon fans is accurate.


Is the New York sports following population the only sample of people the Yankees care about? Nope.

Is the Los Angeles sports following population the only sample of people the Lakers care about? No sir.

And why is that?

Because they have mass appeal to the global baseball and basketball following community.

Now... Is the cincinnati sports following population the only sample of people the Bearcats care about?

Yep. I agree with you there 100 percent. And why is the cincinnati sports following population the only group the bearcats care about?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE MASS APPEAL AND NEVER WILL. (and therefore, no bandwagon.)

Thank you for helping to illustrate this. :beerme:

[WMR]

Proof that people really will argue about anything over the internet. :redface:

Seems to me there can be a bandwagon no matter how big or small of a 'thing' you are talking about. Hell, there are bandwagon boys high school basketball fans in my town.

[Fon Duc Tow]

Seems to me there can be a bandwagon no matter how big or small of a 'thing' you are talking about. Hell, there are bandwagon boys high school basketball fans in my town.

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:

Sorry man but a high school team cannot by definition have a bandwagon. It must be a Cincinnati thing (not knowing what a bandwagon is).

I've never seen so much misuse of the word. :eek:

The last time I remember seeing it was 2005 when the Bengals went to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years. People were all like "look at all the bandwagon fans." The Bengals Bandwagon is parked in between the Montreal Expos and Detroit Lions bandwagons. :D In the parking lot of "wrong use of that word.":thumbup:

Maybe its because our sports teams usually aren't very good. So at the first sign of even modest success, all the longtime fans try their hardest to play the bandwagon card. They want to have a bandwagon sooo bad, they really do. Then they might be included with the big boys.

But sorry, no. Not in Cincinnati. The only way you have a bandwagon here is if you don't know what bandwagon means.

Show me a small market bandwagon (except for the Steelers, curiously enough, but 6 rings will do that) and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what the definition of a bandwagon is. :cool:

[Hoosier Red]

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:

Sorry man but a high school team cannot by definition have a bandwagon. It must be a Cincinnati thing (not knowing what a bandwagon is).

I've never seen so much misuse of the word. :eek:

The last time I remember seeing it was 2005 when the Bengals went to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years. People were all like "look at all the bandwagon fans." The Bengals Bandwagon is parked in between the Montreal Expos and Detroit Lions bandwagons. :D In the parking lot of "wrong use of that word.":thumbup:

Maybe its because our sports teams usually aren't very good. So at the first sign of even modest success, all the longtime fans try their hardest to play the bandwagon card. They want to have a bandwagon sooo bad, they really do. Then they might be included with the big boys.

But sorry, no. Not in Cincinnati. The only way you have a bandwagon here is if you don't know what bandwagon means.

Show me a small market bandwagon (except for the Steelers, curiously enough, but 6 rings will do that) and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what the definition of a bandwagon is. :cool:

I'm glad you've gotten the dictionary out twice but again mass appeal is a relative thing. Do the Lakers have a "mass appeal?" Probably not when compared to Manchester United or FC Barcelona. Outside of the US, China, and a few other places, basketball just doesn't have a mass appeal.

I guess my question to you would be what defines mass? Does it have to exist outside of Cincinnati? That seems to be your definition which is fine.
But there's definately a mass of people in Cincinnati. There will be a mass of people at the Reds game tonight. There will be a mass of people at mass on Sunday.(Forgive me, I couldn't pass it up.)

In any event, unless you define exactly how many people constitute a mass, than it's hard to say whether there's a "mass appeal."

[WMR]

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:

Sorry man but a high school team cannot by definition have a bandwagon. It must be a Cincinnati thing (not knowing what a bandwagon is).

I've never seen so much misuse of the word. :eek:

The last time I remember seeing it was 2005 when the Bengals went to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years. People were all like "look at all the bandwagon fans." The Bengals Bandwagon is parked in between the Montreal Expos and Detroit Lions bandwagons. :D In the parking lot of "wrong use of that word.":thumbup:

Maybe its because our sports teams usually aren't very good. So at the first sign of even modest success, all the longtime fans try their hardest to play the bandwagon card. They want to have a bandwagon sooo bad, they really do. Then they might be included with the big boys.

But sorry, no. Not in Cincinnati. The only way you have a bandwagon here is if you don't know what bandwagon means.

Show me a small market bandwagon (except for the Steelers, curiously enough, but 6 rings will do that) and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what the definition of a bandwagon is. :cool:

I think YOU'RE the one who's using the term incorrectly. :D

[WMR]

AAA High School has 4 fans at their team's opening bball game. Last season they won 2 games.

At the end of the season, as they ride a 25 game winning streak, 1300 people show up for their final home game.

Now, what kind of fans do you call those who showed up at the end of the season? (Hint: 2 words)

[Fon Duc Tow]

I guess my question to you would be what defines mass? Does it have

I would say a great number of people of the given category. For example, the Lakers have mass appeal in the basketball watching sports community. Ditto for the Yankees in the baseball sports watching community.

But the Reds, Bengals, and Bearcats? Pulllease. :rolleyes:

We all ate mashed potatos at the dinner table last night. But we didn't the night before. Are we all on the mashed potatos bandwagon? Pretty small sample size if you ask me. So where do you draw the line? "Mass appeal" sounds pretty big to me.

[Fon Duc Tow]

AAA High School has 4 fans at their team's opening bball game. Last season they won 2 games.

At the end of the season, as they ride a 25 game winning streak, 1300 people show up for their final home game.

Now, what kind of fans do you call those who showed up at the end of the season? (Hint: 2 words)

I know you are going for band wagon. But dictionary.com disagrees with you. Also, bandwagon is one word. But if you are going to misuse the word, I guess you can make it as many words as you like. :D

[WMR]

derrrrr, you fail, the answer we were looking for is 'bandwagon fans.'

And I know how many words 'bandwagon' is, check post 35 if you need proof. :redface:

[paintmered]

Let's get this thread back on topic.

[Revering4Blue]

Preview 2010 - Big East

The Top Quarterbacks


1. Zach Collaros, Jr. Cincinnati

Although they didn’t know it at the time, the Bearcats got a gift when Tony Pike was injured last fall. It allowed the 6-0, 216-pound Collaros to pick some valuable experience that’s sure to serve him well over the next two years. He was a revelation during a five-game stretch, all Cincy wins, finishing 93-of-124 for 1,434 yards, 10 touchdowns, and two picks. Of equal importance, he rushed for 344 yards and four scores on 57 carries. He was clutch in wins over South Florida and West Virginia, and prolific versus lesser opponents. His combination of athleticism and accurate throws on the intermediate routes is a perfect for Butch Jones’ spread attack.


http://cfn.scout.com/2/973349.html

[Reds4Life]

band-wag-on

a party, cause, movement, etc., that by its mass appeal or strength readily attracts many followers:

Sorry man but a high school team cannot by definition have a bandwagon. It must be a Cincinnati thing (not knowing what a bandwagon is).

I've never seen so much misuse of the word. :eek:

The last time I remember seeing it was 2005 when the Bengals went to the playoffs for the first time in 15 years. People were all like "look at all the bandwagon fans." The Bengals Bandwagon is parked in between the Montreal Expos and Detroit Lions bandwagons. :D In the parking lot of "wrong use of that word.":thumbup:

Maybe its because our sports teams usually aren't very good. So at the first sign of even modest success, all the longtime fans try their hardest to play the bandwagon card. They want to have a bandwagon sooo bad, they really do. Then they might be included with the big boys.

But sorry, no. Not in Cincinnati. The only way you have a bandwagon here is if you don't know what bandwagon means.

Show me a small market bandwagon (except for the Steelers, curiously enough, but 6 rings will do that) and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what the definition of a bandwagon is. :cool:

Stu-pid

Continual posts bickering about the use of "mass appeal" and band-wag-on.

[Revering4Blue]

Sources: USC WR transferring to Cincy.

USC wide receiver Brandon Carswell might transfer to Cincinnati, according to sources. Carswell's former USC teammate, wide receiver Vidal Hazelton, is currently playing at Cincinnati.

Los Angeles Daily News

[BearcatShane]

per Vidal_Hazelton7 twitter "So one of the surprises I had for the bearcat fans was Brandon carswell but I guess the media got to it before me.. But I got 2 more for yal"

[Roy Tucker]

I think it will be very interesting to see what degree of success that Butch Jones has. I'm hopeful.

I think people forget that UC football has been on the upswing since about the second half of Rick Minter's term as coach. Before that, it really was about as pathetic as a Div. 1 program can be during Tim Murphy, Dave Currey, et al. But Minter carved some relatively decent teams out of the wilderness that was UC football and started getting them to some minor bowls around 2000 or so. When they started having a little success, Minter couldn't quite get them over the hump so Mark Dantonio was there for a couple-three years and got them to the next rung of respectablility. And then Kelley came on board and things went gonzo.

Realistically, I don't expect a 12-0 season. Too many things have to go right and I think UC used all that up last year. But I think an 11-3 or 10-4 season isn't out of the question. Butch Jones was a very good coach at Central Michigan and Kelley didn't leave the cupboard bare at UC. They have a lot of offensive firepower coming back but the defense is really the question in my mind. They won a lot of shoot-outs last year which are always entertaining. But their defense will dictate the degree of success they achieve.

[WVRed]

I see a similar parralel between UC and West Virginia when Rodriguez left for Michigan and even Louisville when Petrino was there.

Three schools that have had moderate success in football but in two of the cases were overshadowed by basketball (UC when Huggins was there, Louisville because it is Kentucky). When the team won, the fans came and packed the stadium, especially when the product being placed on the field was extremely exciting.

Then the bottom fell out:

Bobby Petrino left for the Atlanta Falcons then eventually Arkansas. Louisville thought they would strike gold again hiring a promising young coach in Steve Kragthorpe. After three seasons of underachieving, Kragthorpe was gone and the fan support eroded.

Rich Rodriguez left for Michigan and left West Virginia in such a way that brought out the very worst in this state. While WVU fans pull for Rodriguez to fall, the sun has fallen on the Mountaineer football program with Bill Stewart at the helm. They were solid with Pat White and Steve Slaton after Rod left but nowhere near the success under Rodriguez. WVU still packs Mountaineer Field, but the program is back to the Nehlen days under Bill Stewart.

The only difference between UC and Louisville/WVU is that UC is going back to the same well. Butch Jones could very well be a carbon copy of Brian Kelly, and I hope minus the leaving for Notre Dame that he is for UC fans.

[Homer Bailey]

I see a similar parralel between UC and West Virginia when Rodriguez left for Michigan and even Louisville when Petrino was there.

Three schools that have had moderate success in football but in two of the cases were overshadowed by basketball (UC when Huggins was there, Louisville because it is Kentucky). When the team won, the fans came and packed the stadium, especially when the product being placed on the field was extremely exciting.

Then the bottom fell out:

Bobby Petrino left for the Atlanta Falcons then eventually Arkansas. Louisville thought they would strike gold again hiring a promising young coach in Steve Kragthorpe. After three seasons of underachieving, Kragthorpe was gone and the fan support eroded.

Rich Rodriguez left for Michigan and left West Virginia in such a way that brought out the very worst in this state. While WVU fans pull for Rodriguez to fall, the sun has fallen on the Mountaineer football program with Bill Stewart at the helm. They were solid with Pat White and Steve Slaton after Rod left but nowhere near the success under Rodriguez. WVU still packs Mountaineer Field, but the program is back to the Nehlen days under Bill Stewart.

The only difference between UC and Louisville/WVU is that UC is going back to the same well. Butch Jones could very well be a carbon copy of Brian Kelly, and I hope minus the leaving for Notre Dame that he is for UC fans.

While I do understand your point, it's still pretty difficult to make the WVU/UC comparison as an apples to apples comparison. WVU is the 15th winningest program in NCAA history, and has a much steeper tradition than UC.

And while I'm far from a Bill Stewart fan, he does have the highest winning percentage of any coach in WVU history. Pretty tough to say that WVU is "back to the Nehlen days" after a coach's first two seasons.

[paintmered]

UC's hire also wasn't internal.

[WVRed]

While I do understand your point, it's still pretty difficult to make the WVU/UC comparison as an apples to apples comparison. WVU is the 15th winningest program in NCAA history, and has a much steeper tradition than UC.

And while I'm far from a Bill Stewart fan, he does have the highest winning percentage of any coach in WVU history. Pretty tough to say that WVU is "back to the Nehlen days" after a coach's first two seasons.

It's more the comparison of Rodriguez leaving WVU than anything else. While every WVU fan I know is hoping to see Rodriguez gone from Michigan after this season, the star quality of WVU has taken a hit with Stewart at the helm. Most WVU fans I know feel that Stewart has underachieved and hasn't gotten the most out of his players.

This probably belongs in a WVU thread but a friend of mine went to a coaches caravan here in Parkersburg at JP Henry's. When asked about this upcoming season, Stewart responded "Well, I don't think we will be as good as we have been, but we are going to give it our all." This was said at a FUNDRAISER. At least he's honest, lol.

As a UK fan, i've always compared Stewart to Tubby Smith. A good coach and a good family man, will put up a pretty high winning percentage to keep job security. At the end of the day though, is not somebody who will likely ever lead a team to a national championship by himself (I say that because Tubby won it all with Pitino's players).

[WVRed]

UC's hire also wasn't internal.

For some reason I thought Butch Jones was an assistant for Brian Kelly at CMU. I think he was for one year though before leaving for Morgantown to work with Rodriguez.

[Revering4Blue]

For some reason I thought Butch Jones was an assistant for Brian Kelly at CMU. I think he was for one year though before leaving for Morgantown to work with Rodriguez.

You are correct.


He arrived at Central Michigan in 1998, coaching tight ends for one year, running backs for two more, and finally called the plays on offense from 2002 to 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Jones

[Slyder]

Lets just say this Butch Jones>Bill Stewart.

Though theres one school that might have hit the lotto with their replacement...

USF

Skip Holtz rebuilt the 5th school in North Carolina to a respectable mid major and now you're giving him Florida to work with in Florida's 4th school... Im scared.

[Homer Bailey]

It's more the comparison of Rodriguez leaving WVU than anything else. While every WVU fan I know is hoping to see Rodriguez gone from Michigan after this season, the star quality of WVU has taken a hit with Stewart at the helm. Most WVU fans I know feel that Stewart has underachieved and hasn't gotten the most out of his players.

This probably belongs in a WVU thread but a friend of mine went to a coaches caravan here in Parkersburg at JP Henry's. When asked about this upcoming season, Stewart responded "Well, I don't think we will be as good as we have been, but we are going to give it our all." This was said at a FUNDRAISER. At least he's honest, lol.

As a UK fan, i've always compared Stewart to Tubby Smith. A good coach and a good family man, will put up a pretty high winning percentage to keep job security. At the end of the day though, is not somebody who will likely ever lead a team to a national championship by himself (I say that because Tubby won it all with Pitino's players).


Again, I'm far from a Stewart fan, but I think the lack of WVU "star quality" can be attributed more to the loss of Pat White than it can be attributed to Stewart. BS has brought in more talent in his 3 years at the helm (ratings wise) than RR ever did (RR has a career losing record with out PW). We're yet to see that translate to on field success, because I think he has serious inabilities as a game coach.

For the record, I was all for WVU getting Butch Jones back in '08 when RR fled. I think it's a great hire for UC, but I'm not sure UC will get back to the levels of success they had under Brian Kelly.

[texasdave]

Backdoor perfection? Would this make UC 13-0 if Florida has to forfeit?



Pouncey's agent is Joel Segal, but the allegation is not necessarily tied to him. If the allegation is proven true, however, Pouncey could be ruled ineligible for the Sugar Bowl game and Florida might have to vacate that victory over Cincinnati among other potential penalties.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/07/21/florida-investigation.ap/index.html?eref=sihp#ixzz0uLGhlFNI

[WVRed]

Again, I'm far from a Stewart fan, but I think the lack of WVU "star quality" can be attributed more to the loss of Pat White than it can be attributed to Stewart. BS has brought in more talent in his 3 years at the helm (ratings wise) than RR ever did (RR has a career losing record with out PW). We're yet to see that translate to on field success, because I think he has serious inabilities as a game coach.

For the record, I was all for WVU getting Butch Jones back in '08 when RR fled. I think it's a great hire for UC, but I'm not sure UC will get back to the levels of success they had under Brian Kelly.

Pat White (and Slaton before him) leaving obviously is going to sting, but its what you do to replace them both in terms of recruits and coaching them up. Rodriguez is the only one who would have been capable of doing that in Morgantown.

Stewart has brought them in, but the talent well is going to eventually dry up with Doc Holliday moving to Huntington. I don't think Holliday will have a massive impact at Marshall, but his loss will be felt in Morgantown, as Stewart is pretty much the equivalent of "The Emperor without any Clothes".

[Homer Bailey]

Pat White (and Slaton before him) leaving obviously is going to sting, but its what you do to replace them both in terms of recruits and coaching them up. Rodriguez is the only one who would have been capable of doing that in Morgantown.

Stewart has brought them in, but the talent well is going to eventually dry up with Doc Holliday moving to Huntington. I don't think Holliday will have a massive impact at Marshall, but his loss will be felt in Morgantown, as Stewart is pretty much the equivalent of "The Emperor without any Clothes".

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2166444#post2166444

[paintmered]

Backdoor perfection? Would this make UC 13-0 if Florida has to forfeit?



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/07/21/florida-investigation.ap/index.html?eref=sihp#ixzz0uLGhlFNI

No. Florida wouldn't have to forfeit, they'd have to vacate the win.

[texasdave]

No. Florida wouldn't have to forfeit, they'd have to vacate the win.

I believe you. But that is kind of odd to think there was a game played with a loser but no winner. :)

[BearcatShane]

BFeldmanESPN:
Former USC WR Brandon Carswell bound for Big East. RT @TheDidster Leaving to Cincinnati on Tues. It's going to be new but fun I can't wait 12 minutes ago via web

[joshnky]

I'm not sure where I stand on UC this year but the UofL beat writer is doing a preview of each Big East team and his preview of UC is especially pessimistic.

http://ulbeat.courier-journal.com/

Once again, I'm not trying to start trouble, I just thought some of you might be interested in how a rival city views this years Bearcats. Personally, while I dislike UC I hope they outperform expectations on the non-conference slate.

[Sea Ray]

Aside from the U(who hit it big with a 2nd big coach right in a row) the other programs had the advantage of one guy coaching for at least 10 years as well.

I don't doubt that Butch Jones can continue on the path Dantonio, Kelly et al have started them on, but Cedric's correct that one bad coaching hire can really destroy any progress made to this point.

If Jones can do what you say, then can UC retain him like the examples given earlier (Va Tech, FL, FSU)?

[Hoosier Red]

If Jones can do what you say, then can UC retain him like the examples given earlier (Va Tech, FL, FSU)?

It depends. Every coach has different things he values. Va. Tech and FSU were fortunate to have a coach who found what he wanted and were able to ramp up to big program status at the right time.

The revolving door doesn't seem to continually spin out good coaches in football, so UC is in a precarious position. But maybe Jones is all that, and he decides to stick.
Maybe not and they play the carousel again. But my point is every time they have to be right. One bad coach can really send the program back to obscurity.

[Sea Ray]

Until UC gets to the point where they can keep a much sought after coach, they will not be considered a football power to be reckoned with.

[joshnky]

Until UC gets to the point where they can keep a much sought after coach, they will not be considered a football power to be reckoned with.

You mean like Tennessee?

[WMR]

You mean like Tennessee?

That's what I was thinking.

How many jobs out there are TRULY 'Final Destination' jobs? There are only a handful of jobs in college football and college basketball that no one would ever willingly leave (for another college job).

And arguably there isn't truly a single one in college athletics because of the pros.

[Sea Ray]

You mean like Tennessee?

Tennessee doesn't have trouble holding onto coaches. They poached Johnny Majors from Pitt even though he won a national championship there. Lane Kiffin was an anomaly. He didn't even win anything at UT.

[Sea Ray]

That's what I was thinking.

How many jobs out there are TRULY 'Final Destination' jobs? There are only a handful of jobs in college football and college basketball that no one would ever willingly leave (for another college job).

And arguably there isn't truly a single one in college athletics because of the pros.

Lump them all together if you want but if you can't tell the difference between Xavier and North Carolina basketball then I won't explain it to you.

[paintmered]

Lump them all together if you want but if you can't tell the difference between Xavier and North Carolina basketball then I won't explain it to you.

You mean the North Carolina that played to a half-full arena this year?

There's no team in college sports that's completely immune to this, despite your assertions. If UC goes 6-6 this season, will there be a step back? You betcha. But I don't think it will be a complete collapse of support a la the pre-Minter days.

BTW, I think UC is looking at another 9-10 win season and bounce in and out of the Top-25. Next season, they'll be loaded with no seniors projected to start on defense.

[Sea Ray]

You mean the North Carolina that played to a half-full arena this year?



So what?

What are the chances of Xavier convincing Roy Williams to leave Chapel hill and come to work on Victory Parkway?

[WMR]

Lump them all together if you want but if you can't tell the difference between Xavier and North Carolina basketball then I won't explain it to you.

I'm not sure you understood my post.

North Carolina basketball would be one of those handful ultimate college destination jobs.

Sure UT can steal a coach from wherever but you had better hope USC or Notre Dame don't come calling. With a few exceptions, there's always a bigger fish that can come along and eat you.

[WMR]

Off the top of my head...

College football:
USC
Ohio State
Texas
Notre Dame
Florida
Alabama

Basketball:
UNC
UK
UCLA (?)
Duke

[Hoosier Red]

Tennessee doesn't have trouble holding onto coaches. They poached Johnny Majors from Pitt even though he won a national championship there.

33 years ago! Guys who were in college then have had kids who graduated from college already.

I'll grant you that Lane Kiffin is an anomaly, and Tennessee has a number of structural advantages over 80% of the colleges, but ask a random sampling of Football fans today, and I'd venture to guess most people wouldn't even rank Tennessee in the top 15 of "destination programs."

[Sea Ray]

I'll grant you that Lane Kiffin is an anomaly, and Tennessee has a number of structural advantages over 80% of the colleges, but ask a random sampling of Football fans today, and I'd venture to guess most people wouldn't even rank Tennessee in the top 15 of "destination programs."

I agree with all of that. Who ever said Tennessee was a top 15 destination program as of 2010? Where did you get that number?

[bucksfan2]

Off the top of my head...

College football:
USC
Ohio State
Texas
Notre Dame
Florida
Alabama

I would also make mention of

PSU
Oklahoma
LSU
Michigan

I would mention that just because you are a "final destination" job doesn't mean that is likely the coaches "dream job". For example your Alma Matter may have more of a draw than a "final destination" job. A couple of years ago I could have seen Les Miles leaving LSU for UM. It isn't saying that LSU isn't a great job, just that UM had more allure to Miles.

[bucksfan2]

I agree with all of that. Who ever said Tennessee was a top 15 destination program as of 2010? Where did you get that number?

Tennessee has a huge advantage over almost every other football program in the nation. Their 100,000+ stadium that is sold out every season generates a tremendous amount of revenue for the football program.

[Hoosier Red]

I agree with all of that. Who ever said Tennessee was a top 15 destination program as of 2010? Where did you get that number?

My overall point is there isn't a whole lot of difference between Tennessee and UC. They both would lose coaches to higher level programs.

Backing up what WMR said, there are maybe 10 programs that wouldn't have to worry about losing a coach to a better program. The next 30-40 all live in the same bubble. UC probably wouldn't lose another coach to a program the caliber of UT for instance, but every one in that 30 team bubble is likely to lose a coach if one of the top 10 programs came calling.

If Butch Jones has success(and I think he will) he'll be attractive to somebody in the top 10. If he stays, great. If he goes, then UC has to get another coach. The difference between UC and UT is that if UC hires Lane Kiffen, they're probably falling off the pedestal.

UC's been fortunate(and smart) in their coach hiring over the past 4-5 coaches but if they make one mistake it can really set the program back a ways.

[Sea Ray]

My overall point is there isn't a whole lot of difference between Tennessee and UC. They both would lose coaches to higher level programs.

Backing up what WMR said, there are maybe 10 programs that wouldn't have to worry about losing a coach to a better program. The next 30-40 all live in the same bubble. UC probably wouldn't lose another coach to a program the caliber of UT for instance, but every one in that 30 team bubble is likely to lose a coach if one of the top 10 programs came calling.

If Butch Jones has success(and I think he will) he'll be attractive to somebody in the top 10. If he stays, great. If he goes, then UC has to get another coach. The difference between UC and UT is that if UC hires Lane Kiffen, they're probably falling off the pedestal.

UC's been fortunate(and smart) in their coach hiring over the past 4-5 coaches but if they make one mistake it can really set the program back a ways.

OK, this is where I clearly disagree with you. Tennessee has much to allure a coach that UC doesn't. I'm surprised you didn't know these but I'll spell them out for you:

1) Playing in the SEC
2) Filling a 100K seat stadium every week
3) Money. Fulmer made much more jack than UC could ever afford to give a coach
4) Recruiting. UT is always above UC in the recruiting rankings

I could throw in a few minor ones like crime rates in Clifton compared to Knoxville or the beauty of the Smokies but I think I've made my case.

[joshnky]

UC probably wouldn't lose another coach to a program the caliber of UT for instance, but every one in that 30 team bubble is likely to lose a coach if one of the top 10 programs came calling.

You're kidding yourself. UT's football budget is at least 2-3 times (revenues are 43M compared to 11M) that of UC's and the facilities are far better. While UT isn't a "destination" school it can still pay a coach twice as much as UC and provide more resources. In the end, the money and prestige usually are what matter most.

[Hoosier Red]

OK, this is where I clearly disagree with you. Tennessee has much to allure a coach that UC doesn't. I'm surprised you didn't know these but I'll spell them out for you:

1) Playing in the SEC
2) Filling a 100K seat stadium every week
3) Money. Fulmer made much more jack than UC could ever afford to give a coach
4) Recruiting. UT is always above UC in the recruiting rankings

I could throw in a few minor ones like crime rates in Clifton compared to Knoxville or the beauty of the Smokies but I think I've made my case.

Those are all true. There's a lot of great things about coaching at UT, I just think that right now the program is not a clear step up from UC for a coach to take.

Though the pay would certainly be higher. But as to the rest, there's a much negative as there is a positive. Playing in the SEC is great, if you like playing in the Citrus Bowl. 100K fans are great, except when they push you out 1 year after you go 10-4. No doubt recruiting at Tennessee is easier than at UC, sometimes you even get the #1 recruit in the nation (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/426380-former-no-1-recruit-bryce-brown-departs-tennessee-whats-next-for-him).

That all said, the last two hires UT has made were both sort of out of left field which shows that UT may not necessarily have the same cache it once did in luring coaches.

The main difference and what I was trying to point out is that UT is pretty comfortably ensconced on this level of the College Football pantheon. UC's perhaps there, perhaps not, but is in much more perilous condition and can fall off whatever stage they've acheived fairly easily if one of these coaching hires doesn't work out.

[Sea Ray]

Those are all true. There's a lot of great things about coaching at UT, I just think that right now the program is not a clear step up from UC for a coach to take.

Though the pay would certainly be higher. But as to the rest, there's a much negative as there is a positive. Playing in the SEC is great, if you like playing in the Citrus Bowl. 100K fans are great, except when they push you out 1 year after you go 10-4. No doubt recruiting at Tennessee is easier than at UC, sometimes you even get the #1 recruit in the nation (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/426380-former-no-1-recruit-bryce-brown-departs-tennessee-whats-next-for-him).

That all said, the last two hires UT has made were both sort of out of left field which shows that UT may not necessarily have the same cache it once did in luring coaches.

The main difference and what I was trying to point out is that UT is pretty comfortably ensconced on this level of the College Football pantheon. UC's perhaps there, perhaps not, but is in much more perilous condition and can fall off whatever stage they've acheived fairly easily if one of these coaching hires doesn't work out.

Clearly you've shown that UT has its problems but you haven't made the connection to UC. There's still no comparison. UT isn't going to Mount Pleasant to pluck off coach after coach. Kiffin left them hanging and their choices were very limited but that gets back to the anomaly we all agreed on earlier.

Where would you rate Mich State's football program? Because they have proven that they're above UC in the pecking order.

[WVRed]

I just wonder how Derek Dooley will do in Knoxville. I've been impressed with him from an institutional standpoint and he definitely will be the true "Southern Gentleman" UT was looking for after Kiffin left. I just wonder how that will translate on the field.

If he does do well, another thing to consider is that if Mark Richt ever finds himself on the hot seat, Dooley's name will be brought up in Athens.

[Sea Ray]

I just wonder how Derek Dooley will do in Knoxville. I've been impressed with him from an institutional standpoint and he definitely will be the true "Southern Gentleman" UT was looking for after Kiffin left. I just wonder how that will translate on the field.

If he does do well, another thing to consider is that if Mark Richt ever finds himself on the hot seat, Dooley's name will be brought up in Athens.

Kudos to him if he does do well because he sure came in under bad circumstances. He's surrounded by coaches that are not used to working together. No way he would have gotten the job if UT had a chance to do a full search after the regular season. If he does do well then it will be difficult to keep him from going to Georgia indeed. As a UT fan, you can't worry about that. If he does leave after being successful in Knoxville then VolNation will have many fine candidates to choose from

[Hoosier Red]

Clearly you've shown that UT has its problems but you haven't made the connection to UC. There's still no comparison. UT isn't going to Mount Pleasant to pluck off coach after coach. Kiffin left them hanging and their choices were very limited but that gets back to the anomaly we all agreed on earlier.

Where would you rate Mich State's football program? Because they have proven that they're above UC in the pecking order.

That's the thing. I don't think a coach would leave UC for Michigan State anymore.

In their best year in recent memory, tMSU went to the Capital One Bowl. Do you think Brian Kelly would have left a team which had just gone to two Sugar Bowls for that?

In all honesty, Tennessee's in a similar position. Sure they can pay more. And they bring in better recruits. And they draw more fans. But at their best are they going to be better than Alabama or Florida? UC may not be either but UC doesn't have to go through either of them to get in a BCS Bowl.

As I said, I think UC is on the next platform down from the top 10 traditional power programs. I think it's about 30-40 programs which are all about equal footing. This encompasses pretty much everyone in the power conferences who regularly expect to go to a bowl game. Plus a few outside teams like BYU and Utah(for now.)

[Hoosier Red]

Kudos to him if he does do well because he sure came in under bad circumstances. He's surrounded by coaches that are not used to working together. No way he would have gotten the job if UT had a chance to do a full search after the regular season. If he does do well then it will be difficult to keep him from going to Georgia indeed. As a UT fan, you can't worry about that. If he does leave after being successful in Knoxville then VolNation will have many fine candidates to choose from

Of course the last time they had "many" fine candidates to choose from. They chose Lane Kiffin.

Just sayin.

[Cedric]

That's the thing. I don't think a coach would leave UC for Michigan State anymore.

In their best year in recent memory, tMSU went to the Capital One Bowl. Do you think Brian Kelly would have left a team which had just gone to two Sugar Bowls for that?

In all honesty, Tennessee's in a similar position. Sure they can pay more. And they bring in better recruits. And they draw more fans. But at their best are they going to be better than Alabama or Florida? UC may not be either but UC doesn't have to go through either of them to get in a BCS Bowl.

As I said, I think UC is on the next platform down from the top 10 traditional power programs. I think it's about 30-40 programs which are all about equal footing. This encompasses pretty much everyone in the power conferences who regularly expect to go to a bowl game. Plus a few outside teams like BYU and Utah(for now.)

I usually agree with most of what you say.. Not at all on this one. MSU is a Big Ten school with probably a true fan base ten times the size of UC. That's not even mentioning budget and salary.

UC is one bad year away from being lower than the Fresno States of the world.. Comparing them with Tenn is really really far fetched. Winning a national title is a HUGE accomplishment and Tenn just did that barely ten years ago.

I also think Brian Kelly in other circumstances would have left for MSU. The difference is he was one of the few guys that was young/exciting enough to aim for the BIG time. Dantonio and others like him never had that exciting brand of offense that gets you big time coaching buzz.

[Sea Ray]

Of course the last time they had "many" fine candidates to choose from. They chose Lane Kiffin.

Just sayin.

And what is wrong with that? The last time the #1 program in the nation had many fine candidates to choose from, they chose...Lane Kiffin

If the top program in the country chose the same coach Tennessee did then what's your point?

[Sea Ray]

I usually agree with most of what you say.. Not at all on this one. MSU is a Big Ten school with probably a true fan base ten times the size of UC. That's not even mentioning budget and salary.

UC is one bad year away from being lower than the Fresno States of the world.. Comparing them with Tenn is really really far fetched. Winning a national title is a HUGE accomplishment and Tenn just did that barely ten years ago.

I also think Brian Kelly in other circumstances would have left for MSU. The difference is he was one of the few guys that was young/exciting enough to aim for the BIG time. Dantonio and others like him never had that exciting brand of offense that gets you big time coaching buzz.

Cedric gets it. Hoosier, you've got your head so far in the sand I can't dig you out

It was a mistake to ever enter Tennessee into this conversation

[joshnky]

Cedric gets it. Hoosier, you've got your head so far in the sand I can't dig you out

It was a mistake to ever enter Tennessee into this conversation

I agree. In the end, what matters is money and UC's athletic department is near the bottom of the BCS schools in this regard.

[Roy Tucker]

I don't think Kelley was going to go anywhere else except Notre Dame.

In an alternate universe, Charlie Weiss has great success at Notre Dame. Brian Kelley stays at UC, annually contends at the BCS level, and builds it into a "destination" program.

Some current destination programs haven't always been that way.

[bucksfan2]

That's the thing. I don't think a coach would leave UC for Michigan State anymore.

In their best year in recent memory, tMSU went to the Capital One Bowl. Do you think Brian Kelly would have left a team which had just gone to two Sugar Bowls for that?

In all honesty, Tennessee's in a similar position. Sure they can pay more. And they bring in better recruits. And they draw more fans. But at their best are they going to be better than Alabama or Florida? UC may not be either but UC doesn't have to go through either of them to get in a BCS Bowl.

As I said, I think UC is on the next platform down from the top 10 traditional power programs. I think it's about 30-40 programs which are all about equal footing. This encompasses pretty much everyone in the power conferences who regularly expect to go to a bowl game. Plus a few outside teams like BYU and Utah(for now.)

Michigan State's stadium capacity is 75000, Nippert is 35000. MSU plays in the Big 10, which right now generates the most revenue out of any conference in football. MSU has better football facilities and a bigger AD budget. If MSU wanted to hire a coach away from UC they would.

UT is in the same position as MSU. A coach would be crazy to turn down a job opportunity from UT to stay at UC. Just a year or so ago UT showed the main difference between the two schools. UT could "pay" UC to come down and play them in Knoxville. UC doesn't have that leverage now and I doubt they ever will. Until UC quits shilling themselves out for money (look at the VaTech deal last year) they aren't a top 25 type program.

[jredmo2]

To be honest, I think it's pointless to berate UC for not being in the same class as the top ten traditional schools.

And really, among those 10 schools, there are class divisions. Ohio State drives revenue like crazy, yet clearly cannot compete with the top 4 or 5 football programs in the nation on the field at this point. For whatever reason, they (and, just for the record, everybody else as well -- I'm not hating on OSU per se, just making a point) have been completely outclassed by the SEC top dogs, be it due to raw talent, coaching philosophy, or whatever.

Now as I'm sure every OSU fan is tired of hearing about how OSU isn't in the same class as top-tier SEC schools, UC fans are tired of "never" being able to compete with OSU, the Big Ten, and "real" college football.

[Sea Ray]

To be honest, I think it's pointless to berate UC for not being in the same class as the top ten traditional schools.

And really, among those 10 schools, there are class divisions. Ohio State drives revenue like crazy, yet clearly cannot compete with the top 4 or 5 football programs in the nation on the field at this point. For whatever reason, they (and, just for the record, everybody else as well -- I'm not hating on OSU per se, just making a point) have been completely outclassed by the SEC top dogs, be it due to raw talent, coaching philosophy, or whatever.

Now as I'm sure every OSU fan is tired of hearing about how OSU isn't in the same class as top-tier SEC schools, UC fans are tired of "never" being able to compete with OSU, the Big Ten, and "real" college football.

If someone is such a UC homer that they think UC has attained heights reached by MSU or UT then they have to be called on the carpet

[bucksfan2]

To be honest, I think it's pointless to berate UC for not being in the same class as the top ten traditional schools.

And really, among those 10 schools, there are class divisions. Ohio State drives revenue like crazy, yet clearly cannot compete with the top 4 or 5 football programs in the nation on the field at this point. For whatever reason, they (and, just for the record, everybody else as well -- I'm not hating on OSU per se, just making a point) have been completely outclassed by the SEC top dogs, be it due to raw talent, coaching philosophy, or whatever.

Now as I'm sure every OSU fan is tired of hearing about how OSU isn't in the same class as top-tier SEC schools, UC fans are tired of "never" being able to compete with OSU, the Big Ten, and "real" college football.

From a sheer revenue driven standpoint UC can not compete with the higher tier schools. It isn't a knock on UC it is just demonstrating the economics of college football. When two schools can generate $100M (Texas and OSU) for the athletic department it makes things a whole lot easier. They have facilities that are equal or better to most professional teams.

The issue I have is that some are being unrealistic when it comes to UC football. I do give them credit because they have risen from afterthoughts to a nice football program. I see them on a similar level to a lot of second tier BCS conference schools. I do think that if a coaches leaves UC in all likelihood it won't be a lateral move. That said I just don't see UC competing with schools with either a storied football history or a much larger AD budget. In 3 years if UT came calling on Butch Jones and doubled his salary as well as his assistant coaches salary do you think he would leave?

[jredmo2]

If someone is such a UC homer that they think UC has attained heights reached by MSU or UT then they have to be called on the carpet

True, historically, that's completely ludicrous. But programs, aside from a select few (OSU being one), tend to rise and fall. Is the SEC ALWAYS going to be this dominant? I'd say not -- we could even be witnessing the beginning of the end this year, who knows. Plenty of programs of comparable stature to UC's have turned in sustained runs of relevance. Plenty of programs have gone from powerhouse to also-ran (Washington, anybody?).

While I agree that UC has a lot to prove, and that a 3-4 year run is hardly a sustained program, I wouldn't be so dismissive of UC's chances. Things change.

[Sea Ray]

True, historically, that's completely ludicrous. But programs, aside from a select few (OSU being one), tend to rise and fall. Is the SEC ALWAYS going to be this dominant? I'd say not -- we could even be witnessing the beginning of the end this year, who knows. Plenty of programs of comparable stature to UC's have turned in sustained runs of relevance. Plenty of programs have gone from powerhouse to also-ran (Washington, anybody?).

While I agree that UC has a lot to prove, and that a 3-4 year run is hardly a sustained program, I wouldn't be so dismissive of UC's chances. Things change.

UT has been a far superior program to UC in my entire lifetime. In the 70s I went to UC games during the Tony Mason era and they played teams like Villanova while Tennessee played before 90K fans vs Bear Bryant. UC isn't likely to pass UT anytime soon.

[Cedric]

To be honest, I think it's pointless to berate UC for not being in the same class as the top ten traditional schools.

And really, among those 10 schools, there are class divisions. Ohio State drives revenue like crazy, yet clearly cannot compete with the top 4 or 5 football programs in the nation on the field at this point. For whatever reason, they (and, just for the record, everybody else as well -- I'm not hating on OSU per se, just making a point) have been completely outclassed by the SEC top dogs, be it due to raw talent, coaching philosophy, or whatever.

Now as I'm sure every OSU fan is tired of hearing about how OSU isn't in the same class as top-tier SEC schools, UC fans are tired of "never" being able to compete with OSU, the Big Ten, and "real" college football.

Ohio State gets beat in two games and they aren't elite enough to compete?

Ohio State winning a title is WAY more likely than UC constantly becoming a power on their level. Sorry if that hurts.

[jredmo2]

Ohio State gets beat in two games and they aren't elite enough to compete?

I thought it was 9 games? :D

[Hoosier Red]

And what is wrong with that? The last time the #1 program in the nation had many fine candidates to choose from, they chose...Lane Kiffin

If the top program in the country chose the same coach Tennessee did then what's your point?

Of course we don't know how many people turned them down(aside from Sarkesian) because they knew the hammer was about to get thrown down by the NCAA. But fair point.

As for what everyone else is saying, I agree with you. tMSU and Tennessee and every other middle of the road Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10 team with 90 years of tradition and millions more in revenue will never be as close to the edge of falling down as UC. As I've said time and time again, UC may be on the same platform, but they're not comfortable there and one bad coach can knock them off to the world below Fresno State.
But unlike those programs who will have to wait for a recruiting scandal or some other fluke to elevate them to be #1 or #2 in their conference, UC is poised to go to a third BCS game in a row. Winning the Big East isn't winning the SEC I'll acknowledge, but it's not winning the MAC conference either. The fact that they get to go to a BCS game is a huge deal. How do you like tMSU's chances of reaching a BCS game in the next 5 years?

[Sea Ray]

Winning the Big East isn't winning the SEC I'll acknowledge, but it's not winning the MAC conference either. The fact that they get to go to a BCS game is a huge deal. How do you like tMSU's chances of reaching a BCS game in the next 5 years?


I hope they do. That'd be a great accomplishment for UC. And I hope Butch Jones leads them to many BCS berths for ten years but my hunch is if Butch is as successful as Kelly was, he too will leave for greener pastures. When UC can retain a successful coach their program will have arrived

[Revering4Blue]

Coach Butch Jones told ESPN.com's Brian Bennett that USC wide receiver Brandon Carswell will stay in Los Angeles and not transfer to Cincinnati, as it was believed he was going to do.
As Bennett notes, it would've been unlikely that Carswell would see a large role in a Bearcat offense that features Armon Binns, D.J. Woods and Vidal Hazelton.

Aug. 2 - 8:00 p.m. ET

Source: ESPN.com

[SeeinRed]

I hope they do. That'd be a great accomplishment for UC. And I hope Butch Jones leads them to many BCS berths for ten years but my hunch is if Butch is as successful as Kelly was, he too will leave for greener pastures. When UC can retain a successful coach their program will have arrived

If Butch Jones puts together a run like Kelly then UC will be a completely different program than it is at this moment. At that point UC is well on its way to having a much larger program in terms of $. I really don't think keeping a coach at that point will be near the issue as it is now. Not saying Jones wouldn't leave, but its not the money in the bank bet some see it as.

[SeeinRed]

On a much rosier note, here is a sneak peek at the Football Opening for 2010 (http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/index.html?media=184177)to get everyone fired up for the season.

[davereds24]

If Butch Jones puts together a run like Kelly then UC will be a completely different program than it is at this moment. At that point UC is well on its way to having a much larger program in terms of $. I really don't think keeping a coach at that point will be near the issue as it is now. Not saying Jones wouldn't leave, but its not the money in the bank bet some see it as.

IMO UC will always be a stepping stone, Nippert is too small and old. There will always be bigger and better options for coaches. You just can't overlook the fact that some schools get 2-2.5x the number of fans at each game. I do think if they stay at this 10+ wins a year level a couple games each year will be played at PBS which would help.

[bucksfan2]

IMO UC will always be a stepping stone, Nippert is too small and old. There will always be bigger and better options for coaches. You just can't overlook the fact that some schools get 2-2.5x the number of fans at each game. I do think if they stay at this 10+ wins a year level a couple games each year will be played at PBS which would help.

There is one little exception to this. And it would require an upgrade at Nippert to around 50-60K seats along with luxury boxes. But since UC is in the Big East and has a legit chance to play for national championships they have an advantage on all other "stepping stone" type schools.

[SeeinRed]

There is one little exception to this. And it would require an upgrade at Nippert to around 50-60K seats along with luxury boxes. But since UC is in the Big East and has a legit chance to play for national championships they have an advantage on all other "stepping stone" type schools.

This, and UC already has the ball rolling on trying to upgrade Nippert. Its a delicate situation because of the location of Nippert and the school wanting to keep the spirit of Nippert intact. It will be interesting to see what direction they go. Its neat having an on campus stadium with so much character, but they may have no choice but to move from Nippert. They aren't just going to stand pat on what they have though.

[paintmered]

This, and UC already has the ball rolling on trying to upgrade Nippert. Its a delicate situation because of the location of Nippert and the school wanting to keep the spirit of Nippert intact. It will be interesting to see what direction they go. Its neat having an on campus stadium with so much character, but they may have no choice but to move from Nippert. They aren't just going to stand pat on what they have though.

It's a big problem with no easy solutions because Nippert is so closely surrounded by either brand new or historic buildings. The architectural study they just did recommended a solution that would only add 3,000 seats but would add the club seats and luxury suites to drive revenue. Pumping $150M+ into that isn't an attractive option. UC was really myopic by building the varsity village building between Nippert and the Shoe. This probably cost them an additional 10K seats at half the cost. Oops.

Moving games to Paul Brown is only slightly more attractive since it pumps money directly into SoP's bank account (that lease deal with the county is highway robbery). Plus, he views UC as a threat to his all mighty dollar, so his facility rental terms aren't kind (although not nearly as bad as originally reported). And there's something to be said to having games on campus.

The only land that could maybe be an option to build a new stadium is about a 220m by 180m and would require demolition of the majority of Sigma Sigma, the alumni and faculty center (only half used), and part of French Hall. For comparison, Nippert's footprint is about 160 x 160m. Any nearby off-campus land is either too expensive or simply unavailable (EPA and Burnet Woods).

The best option in the meantime might be to have one or two games at Paul Brown each year.

[Cyclone792]

On a much rosier note, here is a sneak peek at the Football Opening for 2010 (http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/index.html?media=184177)to get everyone fired up for the season.

Here's what Mike Waddell had to say about the teaser trailer over on Bearcat News (http://forums.bearcatnews.com/showpost.php?p=156122&postcount=6):


This is the first of two videos that play in our pregame format;

the TAKE THE FIELD video plays at the 6 minute mark and sets a tone for the team to take the field - this year's version is longer than past intros, and yes, this is the first 20 seconds. But remember, as with a drum roll, you do not start out at 500 beats per minute... you work up to the speed. This piece paints a picture of the program through the years and ends with some intensely edited clips and matching music. The head coach watched a rough edit on Thursday and said it gave him chills... I think all will be very pleased with the end deliverable as it is our best work to date.

[paintmered]

The video presentation at Nippert has infinitely improved over the last few years. I upgraded my seats from the Lair to the southern endzone so I'll actually be able to see the video board now.

I'm looking forward to it. :)

[paintmered]

Apparently Butch Jones said this morning on ESPN that UC has sold 22,000 season tickets and sold out their entire home schedule.

[bucksfan2]

It's a big problem with no easy solutions because Nippert is so closely surrounded by either brand new or historic buildings. The architectural study they just did recommended a solution that would only add 3,000 seats but would add the club seats and luxury suites to drive revenue. Pumping $150M+ into that isn't an attractive option. UC was really myopic by building the varsity village building between Nippert and the Shoe. This probably cost them an additional 10K seats at half the cost. Oops.

Exactly. Nippert could be a great and unique stadium. It is a great stadium to watch football in but its just too small if you want to build a top notch program. UC is in a predicament because if they want to build their football program they need $. Varsity village has strapped the athletic department and they are in need of funds. I don't want to see Nippert move from its current location but I have heard Barnett Woods (the park just off MLK) could be location for a new stadium.


Moving games to Paul Brown is only slightly more attractive since it pumps money directly into SoP's bank account (that lease deal with the county is highway robbery). Plus, he views UC as a threat to his all mighty dollar, so his facility rental terms aren't kind (although not nearly as bad as originally reported). And there's something to be said to having games on campus.

The best option in the meantime might be to have one or two games at Paul Brown each year.

I hate the idea of playing more than one game a year at PBS. College football games are made to be played in college football stadiums with college atmospheres. There is such a drastic difference between a college gameday experience and a pro football experience. PBS has a much higher capacity but UC loses some atmosphere if they play too many games there.

[Cedric]

Exactly. Nippert could be a great and unique stadium. It is a great stadium to watch football in but its just too small if you want to build a top notch program. UC is in a predicament because if they want to build their football program they need $. Varsity village has strapped the athletic department and they are in need of funds. I don't want to see Nippert move from its current location but I have heard Barnett Woods (the park just off MLK) could be location for a new stadium.



I hate the idea of playing more than one game a year at PBS. College football games are made to be played in college football stadiums with college atmospheres. There is such a drastic difference between a college gameday experience and a pro football experience. PBS has a much higher capacity but UC loses some atmosphere if they play too many games there.

It's Burnet woods. And it's not going to be there. The athletic department doesn't have the money to even think about building a brand new stadium right now.

UC has to fix their basketball program before they even thinking about getting out of the red. No matter how they slice it they are in major budget crisis mode. One bad year from the football program and it's even worse than they thought.

[GaiusBallstar]

So I'm probably going to UC in the fall and I was on campus the other day, and I saw Nippert.

The talk of uprgading it is interesting to me because it's basically a hole in the center of campus with seats. But to me, it was one of the most beautiful football stadiums I've ever seen. I loved it, the way it was surrounded by the building and fit into the rest of the campus so well. Maybes its to small to be the stadium for a hugetime college football team, maybe its possible it could be upgraded to that size and maybe it isnt. But, two points...

Building a big brand new stadium near campus, on campus (probably impossible, and very unlikely) or somewhere else in the city is far from a sure thing in making the program a permanent big time fixture. Recruiting is what drives success in college football, if you can recruit, you can win. And recruits aren't that necessarily obsessed with the size of a stadium. If they were, they already wouldnt be going to UC, they'd be going to UK, Louisville, Indiana U, Marshall, Illinois, just to name a few schools in the area. Many of these schools can claim a better tradition in football than UC, but are held back for some reason or other.

Playing the games in Paul Brown is a terrible idea as well. I went to a school that plays their games in a pro stadium, Tulane University. Tulane used to have a stadium around the same size as Nippert. Moving to that facility has not given them the success and prestige at football they thought it would back in the 70s. And don't think Tulane couldn't have a good football team, they have an excellent location (New Orleans), to recruit from and to. They have good academics, but not so good that they can't let plenty of guys in who wouldn't be going to college without football, and they have the money. Tulane even shells out money for coaches, they're just stupid and can't figure out that they'd be better off in their own facility and give they're players terrible accomodations. The players live above me in the same dorm I did, which was the worst dorm on campus. So either their dumb or they no longer care.

Point is, the facility where the team plays does not the program make. UC is probably better off adding about 3-5 thousand seats to Nippert, with a few boxes, which could probably be done and salvage the integrity of the stadium and the campus.

[GaiusBallstar]

Also, I should add that the biggest thing that really is going to hold back UC's football now and in the future, is the conference their in. The Big East is an extremely weak conference that seems to have little interest in being a true big time college football conference. If they were interested in this, they would add 3 or 4 teams and become a 2 division conference. Teams like UCF, Marshall, UAB, and FAU all either are or have the potential to be solid football schools. The conference did this well before when it added USF, taking a school that might not be quite ready for primetime and helping it grow. They also need to make an attempt to raid the ACC for SOMEBODY, or consider adding an east coast D-1AA powerhouse.

Most likely though, the Big East died forever as a real football conference when it lost both VT and Miami. They seem to have resigned themselves to being the basketball superconference, and are currently more interested in that.

[Slyder]

Also, I should add that the biggest thing that really is going to hold back UC's football now and in the future, is the conference their in. The Big East is an extremely weak conference that seems to have little interest in being a true big time college football conference. If they were interested in this, they would add 3 or 4 teams and become a 2 division conference. Teams like UCF, Marshall, UAB, and FAU all either are or have the potential to be solid football schools. The conference did this well before when it added USF, taking a school that might not be quite ready for primetime and helping it grow. They also need to make an attempt to raid the ACC for SOMEBODY, or consider adding an east coast D-1AA powerhouse.

Most likely though, the Big East died forever as a real football conference when it lost both VT and Miami. They seem to have resigned themselves to being the basketball superconference, and are currently more interested in that.

Kind of long just a warning.

The teams you mention would be laughed upon by the rest of the BcS and would probably LOWER not raise big east revenue and prestige. Marshall doesn't have the facilities or the football stadium to be taken seriously, they also add a very very miniscule # of tv sets not already "included" by WVU, UC, and Louisville.

UCF is the only one that arguably add anything in terms of tv sets... granted no one in Orlando cares. Probably on the short list for big east expansion if needed (IE someone leaves).

FA Who? Are they even D1? Oh ya Howard Schellenburger the guy that built the U. They got Crushed by Nebraska and So. Carolina, they wouldnt even be on the list of schools for Conference USA let alone should they be anywhere on the Big East Radar. If they are the Big East is even more incompetant than even the most cynicle fan believes.

UAB I dont know enough to say. They have a decent history considering theyve only had football for 15 years. Dont think they'd be real happy in the Big East considering that USF would be the ONLY reletively close opponent.

None of these schools shock you into believing that the Big East is SERIOUS about football. Most of them would be on the C-List of teams that really don't add anything but another mouth to feed. If the Big East wanted to be taken seriously here are the names they should be looking at... ECU (traditionally a strong program with football, recently invested into upgrades all around. Great Fan Travel support which is HUGE at keeping bowl bids. A tradition of Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime willing to take the tough road to get respect. Downside: Crowded NCAA area (they would be a 5th BCS team in No Carolina), They are more of a regional draw than a national name. Would be a popular team with ESPN TV (they almost always get regional games).

After that I look west. Well actually North as in the Big 12 North. Kansas and KSU would be a package deal both bring really solid traditions moreso on the basketball side. Both have been on the national radar in recent years. The marketability of the KU and KSU lines help give the Big East name recognition while many of our historical marquee programs are going through a rough spot (Pitt still has Wanny for a coach, UC has a lot of change coming in at key spots, WVU has the NCAA sniffing around, Syracuse is dreadful)

Missouri would be the name that everyone knows but really not sure how or why. Another that is living more off of past accomplishments than anything theyve done recently. Would bring St. Louis and maybe Kansas City to the table.

You contact the Big 12 North and just tell em same money and equal control and they would BOLT from Texasland just like Nebraska did.

Memphis (and I want to preference this with... If its true about the Fed Ex $$) Play in a very nice stadium (Liberty Bowl), lots of ties to the Liberty bowl, hasnt seen that much success in football. They would probably add more value to the basketball side.

The Big East is NOT In a position to solely poach any ACC team. I mean even BC, as unhappy as they are, is making more money than what the current tv contract gives to Big East schools. We would need someone else like the Big 10 to start sniffing around Maryland, Virginia, or Ga. Tech to be able to maybe get Va Tech or BC to listen. And they are the ONLY ones who would listen.

[GaiusBallstar]

Kind of long just a warning.


I understand some of your arguments, and were kind of on the same page, and I admit I did my "research" on schools hastily, but...

UCF is an excellent choice, its in Florida, in a huge market, and in Florida you can get tv sets and players. They're also already good at football.

FAU is in Florida, and as you said, has a good coach. Those two things alone make it a decent choice

Marshall is a fine choice, decent market (Huntington MSA has 300,00 people), and a school with good tradition in football. They have a faithful fanbase, and also, the stadium is bigger and nicer than Nippert, for example, I've been there. It could also easily be made much larger.

ECU is definitely a school to look at, but I don't think it even compares to UCF and Marshall.

Kansas, K State, Missouri, and Memphis are to far west IMO, and even if you got all 4 of them, they still would have to play at least a couple games against teams in the northeast, and travel to play said teams, which they probably won't want to do.

On Maryland and BC, I think they could be poached from the ACC, better fit for them geographically, and as you said BC is unhappy, as well as the fact they're solid basketball teams would get to be part of the strongest basketball conference. Va Tech might also be poachable, but I think its less likely than those 2.

Also, The Big East is already a laughing stock, its moves might have to be a tad desperate.

[Hoosier Red]

Kind of long just a warning.
If the Big East wanted to be taken seriously here are the names they should be looking at... ECU (traditionally a strong program with football, recently invested into upgrades all around. Great Fan Travel support which is HUGE at keeping bowl bids. A tradition of Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime willing to take the tough road to get respect. Downside: Crowded NCAA area (they would be a 5th BCS team in No Carolina), They are more of a regional draw than a national name. Would be a popular team with ESPN TV (they almost always get regional games).

After that I look west. Well actually North as in the Big 12 North. Kansas and KSU would be a package deal both bring really solid traditions moreso on the basketball side. Both have been on the national radar in recent years. The marketability of the KU and KSU lines help give the Big East name recognition while many of our historical marquee programs are going through a rough spot (Pitt still has Wanny for a coach, UC has a lot of change coming in at key spots, WVU has the NCAA sniffing around, Syracuse is dreadful)

Missouri would be the name that everyone knows but really not sure how or why. Another that is living more off of past accomplishments than anything theyve done recently. Would bring St. Louis and maybe Kansas City to the table.

You contact the Big 12 North and just tell em same money and equal control and they would BOLT from Texasland just like Nebraska did.

Memphis (and I want to preference this with... If its true about the Fed Ex $$) Play in a very nice stadium (Liberty Bowl), lots of ties to the Liberty bowl, hasnt seen that much success in football. They would probably add more value to the basketball side.



The real problem I see with ECU, at least in the short term is that they're better than their national reputation. Guaranteeing that you have to go to East Carolina every other year(which is apparantly a witch to win in) and if you win you get little recognition and if you lose, you lost to a team that's lucky to be in the Big East. At least that's the perception I'd fear. I like the idea of moving West with Missouri, Iowa State, Kansas and Kansas St. Those four schools all have some national recognition, and are probably easier places to win than Greenville.

[Slyder]

I understand some of your arguments, and were kind of on the same page, and I admit I did my "research" on schools hastily, but...

UCF is an excellent choice, its in Florida, in a huge market, and in Florida you can get tv sets and players. They're also already good at football.

FAU is in Florida, and as you said, has a good coach. Those two things alone make it a decent choice

Marshall is a fine choice, decent market (Huntington MSA has 300,00 people), and a school with good tradition in football. They have a faithful fanbase, and also, the stadium is bigger and nicer than Nippert, for example, I've been there. It could also easily be made much larger.

ECU is definitely a school to look at, but I don't think it even compares to UCF and Marshall.

Kansas, K State, Missouri, and Memphis are to far west IMO, and even if you got all 4 of them, they still would have to play at least a couple games against teams in the northeast, and travel to play said teams, which they probably won't want to do.

On Maryland and BC, I think they could be poached from the ACC, better fit for them geographically, and as you said BC is unhappy, as well as the fact they're solid basketball teams would get to be part of the strongest basketball conference. Va Tech might also be poachable, but I think its less likely than those 2.

Also, The Big East is already a laughing stock, its moves might have to be a tad desperate.

$$$$, TV, and Football is driving all the talk of expansion and right now the ACC has more of the first two than the Big East. Maryland also isn't going to give up the research money or prestige they get for being with the ACC (whom next to the big 10 and ivy league I believe have the largest research donations) and all their traditional rivals unless they feel the ACC is no longer in the stable position for football. Hence why it would almost have to be a 2-pronged attack for the big east to get anyone and in such Maryland would likely end up with the Big 10+ infinity.

On UCF, I just doubt that they would really add that much more than USF already does. I may just be thinking too much of a whats the point of tvs if they arent tuned in. Plus outside of USF who is that a reasonible trip for?

Marshall has a nice story and tradition but most of those tvs would watch WVU, UC, or Louisville anyways. They dont have the infrastructure or the money to invest in upgrading their program to BcS levels. They are probably about where they should be CUSA/MAC similar budgets of schools in competition with Marshall. East Carolina has the donor money to invest that Marshall lacks.

FAU would be looked at as a joke of an addition. They would immediately replace Syracuse as bottom tier rung in football. They are a school people bring in for homecoming game because they know that they can put up 30 in the first half and call it a day. Having a coach only goes so far. I dont know how good any of their facilities are.

[Slyder]

The real problem I see with ECU, at least in the short term is that they're better than their national reputation. Guaranteeing that you have to go to East Carolina every other year(which is apparantly a witch to win in) and if you win you get little recognition and if you lose, you lost to a team that's lucky to be in the Big East. At least that's the perception I'd fear. I like the idea of moving West with Missouri, Iowa State, Kansas and Kansas St. Those four schools all have some national recognition, and are probably easier places to win than Greenville.

Its why I wouldnt stop with 12 with the big east. Go fourteen and then you only have to make 2 real trips east. All of the eastern schools are fairly close to major metropolitian airports which limit the real travel. Memphis to Cincy 7 hr drive.

Manhattan would be the furthest point west and that would be a 12 hr trip from Cincy. For the non revenue sports just setup schedules so that when they go to KSU they hit Kansas and/or Missouri on the way back. If theyre travelling by bus. Not sure of the airports in Kansas.

[BearcatShane]

Fresno State Saturday Night at 10:00 EST. ESPN2.

[GIDP]

I would like to thank Pitt for instantly ruining any credit the Bearcats will get if they win another big east championship.

[paintmered]

I would like to thank Pitt for instantly ruining any credit the Bearcats will get if they win another big east championship.

That's Wannstache for you. He's like clockwork.

But you're right re: Pitt and the Big East credibility. Sorry Pitt, you don't get to complain about UC losing BCS games when you can't travel west and beat an unranked team.

[dougdirt]

That's Wannstache for you. He's like clockwork.

But you're right re: Pitt and the Big East credibility. Sorry Pitt, you don't get to complain about UC losing BCS games when you can't travel west and beat an unranked team.

I think this comment is right and wrong. Pitt can shut up about Cincinnati, that is for sure..... but, as for saying Utah is an unranked team.... well sure, but we don't really know how good/bad they are at this point either. Lets see where they are in 5-6 games and have a decent idea of the team they are.

[GIDP]

What I was getting at though was Pitt who was favored in the Big east because of politics and things of those nature just went out and lost to an unranked team in their opener. Basically destroying any good pub an already crapped on conference would get. Basically setting the whole conference back already from the start.

[paintmered]

I think this comment is right and wrong. Pitt can shut up about Cincinnati, that is for sure..... but, as for saying Utah is an unranked team.... well sure, but we don't really know how good/bad they are at this point either. Lets see where they are in 5-6 games and have a decent idea of the team they are.

Fair point, but my point is that even if Utah is a top-25 team (and they probably are), the supposed "consensus favorite to win the Big East" should have gone out to Salt Lake a winner. It's a testament to how Pitt is annually overrated in the pre-season polls.

Wannstache chronically gets his team to under-perform and fails to play to their strengths. Last night, Pitt was stubbornly committed to the run down 11 even though Utah sold-out against it all night. Wannstache should have opened things up, forced Utah to double-cover Baldwin and then unleash Lewis on them. As a UC fan, I'm thrilled he's the great equalizer for all of their NFL talent. Now, with a young offensive line and a new starter at QB, they're likely to improve offensively and could look very different by the time they make the trip to Clifton.

[paintmered]

Fifth Third to sponsor UC football
THE ENQUIRER • SEPTEMBER 2, 2010

Fifth Third Bancorp announced Thursday it has become an official sponsor of the University of Cincinnati's Bearcats football team, in addition to its support of the Jefferson Avenue Sports Complex.

Financial terms were not disclosed.

More at the link.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100902/BIZ01/9030354/1001/BIZ/Fifth-Third-to-sponsor-UC-football

Good news to have additional funding coming into the program. It's about time one of the Fortune 500 companies stepped up to the plate (P&G, I'm looking at you). It will be really nice to have ATMs inside Nippert. That's been needed for years now.

Also, UC held its first practice in their new practice complex. Video here: http://www.gobearcats.com/allaccess/index.html?media=191677

[Homer Bailey]

Pitt is a joke. They were lucky to even be in that game. Can't believe Wanny was using 2 and 3 linebackers vs. 4 and 5 wide sets. Pitt is exactly what I thought they were: overrated.

[NorrisHopper30]

Pitt is a joke. They were lucky to even be in that game. Can't believe Wanny was using 2 and 3 linebackers vs. 4 and 5 wide sets. Pitt is exactly what I thought they were: overrated.

Like usual. Pitt is overrated every year because they recruit well.

[CTA513]

UC is looking pretty bad and is now down 28-14 in the 4th quarter.

[Reds4Life]

Same garbage defense from last year, but Kelly didn't leave Jones with a lot there, so not much can be done about that.

What does suprise me is how bad the offense is. All we heard all offseason was how much Jones was like Kelly as an offensive mind. Uh, yeah, I don't think so.

[CTA513]

Collaros can scramble but hes also losing big chunks of yards by not throwing the ball away.

[Cyclone792]

The offensive play calling, the offensive line and Collaros have all been a disaster.

[Reds4Life]

O-Line has given up 6 sacks in a little over 3 quarters.

I am less than impressed with Butch Jones.

[Homer Bailey]

I'm not a UC fan, but c'mon guys, you gotta give the guy some time. There is going to be some transition pain whenever there is a coaching change. UC will be fine. Jones is a good coach, and I wish WVU would have offered him.

[paintmered]

Let the Kragthorpe comparisons begin. Ugh.

[Cedric]

I can't remember the last time I have seen a coach act so panicked on the sideline. That guy has to change his demeanor if he wants to be a big time coach.

I don't think UC had the depth to have 4-5 good years. Their recruiting has been very average recently.

[Reds4Life]

I can't remember the last time I have seen a coach act so panicked on the sideline. That guy has to change his demeanor if he wants to be a big time coach.

I don't think UC had the depth to have 4-5 good years. Their recruiting has been very average recently.

Most of that falls onto Kelly's shoulders, not Jones.

[Cedric]

Most of that falls onto Kelly's shoulders, not Jones.

I just think it's a byproduct of UC having no tradition and trying to recruit into Clifton. It's almost impossible to have sustained success there, IMO.

[guttle11]

Really, really early observation: I'm not sure if Collaros can be "the guy". Teams were not prepared for him last year. Fresno made it look like he was tipping his pitches so to speak. Once Fresno started controlling the line, Collaros looked panicked and it showed in his decision making. It's still just one game, but after a full offseason and camp leading to this game, you want to see better, especially out of a guy that's been a winner since he was a pee-wee quarterback.

As an outsider I was questioning the Jones hire when it happened, but one game 2,000 miles from home, in a tough place, against a respectable team isn't a big warning sign just yet, IMO. Fresno just won the game up front, not really by scheme and planning.

Rough weekend for the Big East. Not gonna help them win respect points around the nation.

[paintmered]

Rough weekend for the Big East. Not gonna help them win respect points around the nation.

Yep, pretty much a worst case scenario all around.

[Cyclone792]

The coaching staff seemed to make zero in-game adjustments. Or if they did make any, they didn't work one iota.

The play calling was terrible, and it reminded me of the Dave Shula Bengal years. Screen plays, swing plays and five yard dump offs. The vaunted UC offense refused to try to stretch the field. An offense that averaged 39 points last year puts up 14 tonight. It was a sad but true tale.

Collaros looked flustered. I wasn't entirely sold on him last season, and I'm still not sold on him now. Chazz Anderson certainly isn't the answer. Though I might give Collaros some benefit of the doubt tonight, if only because ...

The offensive line stunk. I think they played better against Florida than they did tonight. They gave Pead no chance to open up holes in the running game, and they totally collapsed in pass protection.

This is the worst game I've seen from UC since their last regular season loss when they were blown out at Connecticut in 2008. Sure, they'd lost two bowl games since then, but in those games they were outplayed by high caliber talent. Tonight, they just folded away when the pressure came.

UC will blow out Indiana State next week, but that will tell us nothing. We have to wait until September 16th to figure out what in the world is going on. If things don't turn around by that point, I don't want want to think about what could happen at PBS on the 25th.

[takealeake]

BEAST looks really horrible, but hey, as a Louisville fan that gives me hope of a bowl this season even with a decimated roster. :p:

And Bearcat fans, trust me, you have a LONG LONG way to go before making Kragthorpe comparisons. I've seen the bottom, and this ain't it.

[GIDP]

O-line lost that game with out a doubt.

[Caveat Emperor]

As an outsider I was questioning the Jones hire when it happened, but one game 2,000 miles from home, in a tough place, against a respectable team isn't a big warning sign just yet, IMO. Fresno just won the game up front, not really by scheme and planning.

Outside of 3 or 4 top-quality non-BCS programs (TCU, Boise, Utah, BYU types), BCS schools should dominate non-BCS schools no matter where the games are played. Under no circumstance should they ever get soundly beaten the way UC was tonight. There's absolutely no excuse for losing to non-BCS level program. When it happens, the blame should always fall squarely on the coaching staff and players for allowing inferior competition to beat them.

UC showed up with no gameplan whatsoever. They played dink and dunk and rarely got the ball into the hands of playmakers with space to work with. Collaros went from sure and confident last year under Kelly to hesitant and tentative in this game. He played like a guy who wasn't sure what he was supposed to be doing on any given play, and who was looking to check down immediately on every throw. There was no tempo either -- too much time standing around between plays, no attempt to push the defense on the rare instances where the offense started to build momentum.

Butch Jones is looking like a disaster already -- out of his league and out of his element. Any hopes of crashing the national stage this year are completely over.

So much for another exciting year of UC Football.

[LoganBuck]

Give Fresno State some credit. They are in the same category as Utah, BYU, TCU, BSU, with more quality out of conference games. They just lose more, but they sit on fertile recruiting grounds, and typically have several transfers from players in the PAC10 that were looking for playing time.

[cincrazy]

Outside of 3 or 4 top-quality non-BCS programs (TCU, Boise, Utah, BYU types), BCS schools should dominate non-BCS schools no matter where the games are played. Under no circumstance should they ever get soundly beaten the way UC was tonight. There's absolutely no excuse for losing to non-BCS level program. When it happens, the blame should always fall squarely on the coaching staff and players for allowing inferior competition to beat them.

UC showed up with no gameplan whatsoever. They played dink and dunk and rarely got the ball into the hands of playmakers with space to work with. Collaros went from sure and confident last year under Kelly to hesitant and tentative in this game. He played like a guy who wasn't sure what he was supposed to be doing on any given play, and who was looking to check down immediately on every throw. There was no tempo either -- too much time standing around between plays, no attempt to push the defense on the rare instances where the offense started to build momentum.

Butch Jones is looking like a disaster already -- out of his league and out of his element. Any hopes of crashing the national stage this year are completely over.

So much for another exciting year of UC Football.

I don't think I'd call Fresno inferior to UC. Fresno has been a very good program for a while, and going out there to play a game isn't easy by any stretch of the imagination.

[Chip R]

Lot of room on that UC bandwagon now that everyone's jumping off.

[Boston Red]

Outside of 3 or 4 top-quality non-BCS programs (TCU, Boise, Utah, BYU types), BCS schools should dominate non-BCS schools no matter where the games are played. Under no circumstance should they ever get soundly beaten the way UC was tonight. There's absolutely no excuse for losing to non-BCS level program. When it happens, the blame should always fall squarely on the coaching staff and players for allowing inferior competition to beat them.

Geez, how long have you been a UC fan?!? Did you feel this way when UC was in C-USA?

[Caveat Emperor]

Geez, how long have you been a UC fan?!? Did you feel this way when UC was in C-USA?

When UC was in C-USA, I expected to lose v. BCS opposition. There should be a large talent gulf an quality of coaching gulf between BCS and non-BCS programs. BCS programs should expect to win when they go out of conference to face WAC, MAC, C-USA and MWC competition.

I don't think that's an unrealistic standard to hold the team to at all. Very few programs in BCS conferences would ever shrug off a loss to a program like Fresno by saying "Eh, they're a good team." I don't see why such a loss should be acceptable for UC.

[paintmered]

Maybe we're starting to see the fruits of Kelly's negligent recruiting at the non-skill positions? It should be a criminal offense to only recruit four linebackers in three classes. He wasn't much better at recruiting linemen.

UC will heal a bit during their Sacrificial Lamb U game. The NC State game looms large now.

[Boston Red]

I don't think that's an unrealistic standard to hold the team to at all.

UC was a three point underdog, so Vegas thinks your standards are unreasonable.

[Caveat Emperor]

UC was a three point underdog, so Vegas thinks your standards are unreasonable.

I didn't check the line before the game. If so, that should be embarrassing to the the program and indicative of the lack of respect UC Football still gets nationwide. I doubt you'd find many BCS programs who would be road dogs against non-BCS competition.

Then again, the bigger issue is scheduling the game in the first place. You wouldn't find many BCS programs who would ever go on the road week 1 to play a non-BCS opponent.

[GIDP]

I think a road game out west, new QB, new go to WR, new coach, has a lot more to do with it than lack of respect.

[paintmered]

The MRI report is in. Hazelton tore his ACL. :(

[Boston Red]

I didn't check the line before the game. If so, that should be embarrassing to the the program and indicative of the lack of respect UC Football still gets nationwide.

Or....it could, you know, be an indication that Fresno is pretty good.

[Caveat Emperor]

The MRI report is in. Hazelton tore his ACL. :(

Tough news. Binns, Woods and Guidugli will really need to step up if the offense is to get on track.

[ThornWithin81]

This is what you get for laughing at Pitt. :P

[paintmered]

This is what you get for laughing at Pitt. :P

Laughing at Pitt? No. Pointing out Pitt as chronically underachieving? Yep.

But hey, you keep thinking that an NFL prospect's future is related to a few internet schleps' karma. Keep giving those OSU fans a good name.

[ThornWithin81]

Laughing at Pitt? No. Pointing out Pitt as chronically underachieving? Yep.

But hey, you keep thinking that an NFL prospect's future is related to a few internet schleps' karma.

I wasn't talking about the injury - it was a delayed reaction to dogging Pitt for going out west and losing to an "unranked team."

It's playful banter from a Buckeye fan. Nothing more. :beerme:

[cincrazy]

BCS program or not, over the last decade, Fresno State has been a better football program than Cincy. Kelly took them to a high not seen previously, but Fresno State has been consistently good for a good while now. It'd be different if Cincy went on the road and lost to Idaho, but that's not the case here. The Bulldogs are a very good program, that could beat many BCS teams at Fresno.

[GIDP]

I wasn't talking about the injury - it was a delayed reaction to dogging Pitt for going out west and losing to an "unranked team."

It's playful banter from a Buckeye fan. Nothing more. :beerme:
Pitt is also supposed to be the best team in the big east.

Pitt should have easily won.

[reds1869]

BCS program or not, over the last decade, Fresno State has been a better football program than Cincy. Kelly took them to a high not seen previously, but Fresno State has been consistently good for a good while now. It'd be different if Cincy went on the road and lost to Idaho, but that's not the case here. The Bulldogs are a very good program, that could beat many BCS teams at Fresno.

Not only could, but have--including even more on the road. The Bulldogs' BCS victims over the years include Oregon State (ranked #1 at the time), Colorado, Colorado State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Washington, Kansas State, Rutgers and Georgia Tech. And, of course, Cincinnati. They very nearly beat USC a few years back, falling by a touchdown. Those are just the victims I found in a ten second google search. Anyone who buys the BCS label as something that equals higher quality is drinking the Kelly Koolaid. Anyone who is unaware of Fresno State clearly a)doesn't watch much college football or b) goes to bed before the west coast games kickoff.

[guttle11]

Not only could, but have--including even more on the road. The Bulldogs' BCS victims over the years include Oregon State (ranked #1 at the time), Colorado, Colorado State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Washington, Kansas State, Rutgers and Georgia Tech. And, of course, Cincinnati. They very nearly beat USC a few years back, falling by a touchdown. Those are just the victims I found in a ten second google search. Anyone who buys the BCS label as something that equals higher quality is drinking the Kelly Koolaid. Anyone who is unaware of Fresno State clearly a)doesn't watch much college football or b) goes to bed before the west coast games kickoff.

"Over the years" is pretty misleading. How many years, 10? 50?

No one said Fresno State was anything but a good program. That's kind of the point. If UC is going on the road and being dominated for much of the game by a good team, what does that make them? Potentially less than good. It's one thing to lose, it's another to be out-everythinged after adjustments were made and look flat out weak for the final 40 or so minutes. In the first game, with months to plan and everyone healthy at opening kickoff. That's not good.

If UC wants to take the next step (winning BCS games, having unbeaten regular seasons lead to title game appearances), they simply have to be better than Fresno. Not a knock on Fresno, not a reason for UC to press the panic button, just the simple truth.

Now UC is coming home 0-1 and are without probably the most dangerous offensive weapon on the roster for the rest of the season. Oklahoma looms. Not ideal. Uphill climb for sure.

[texasdave]

I am pretty sure during the telecast they reported that Fresno State had 15 wins over BCS opponents during the last 10 years. Not sure which teams they beat.

[Caveat Emperor]

I am pretty sure during the telecast they reported that Fresno State had 15 wins over BCS opponents during the last 10 years. Not sure which teams they beat.

They were also 7-5 last year and graduated their best offensive player. Fresno is a team UC needs to beat (if not dominate) if they want to ever be taken seriously as a top college football program.

[westofyou]

I am pretty sure during the telecast they reported that Fresno State had 15 wins over BCS opponents during the last 10 years. Not sure which teams they beat.

I've seen them do pretty well for the last 20 years against California teams, they are not a sleeper, and if approached as one they make you pay.

[Hoosier Red]

They were also 7-5 last year and graduated their best offensive player. Fresno is a team UC needs to beat (if not dominate) if they want to ever be taken seriously as a top college football program.

As someone with no formal ties to UC, but who has been vociferously
"defending" UC's standing in the College Football pecking order, I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately, so much of the pecking order is about perception, if you're seen as a small time program, you are a small time program until you're not. On the one hand you should commend UC for having the guts to play a home and home with a dangerous opponent. On the other hand, top programs don't lose games that will hurt them in the perception battle. Either play a "legitimate" BCS power so that if you lose, you are seen as at least playing a top team tough, or play patsies who you will undoubtedly crush.

While losing at Fresno is no embarrassment, it's really not something teams who are trying to assert their place on the top rung can afford to do often.

[Sea Ray]

UC lost their coach, QB and top offensive and ST player. I don't think they'll match last year's success in 2010. The loss on Saturday was disappinting but not surprising. I wouldn't argue that UC is "top rung" yet but there's no shame in what UC is right now.

For now UC should strive to win the weak Big East and earn another BCS Bowl bid. That'll be a very uphill battle this year but if they do it they don't owe anyone any apologies.

[paintmered]

As someone with no formal ties to UC, but who has been vociferously
"defending" UC's standing in the College Football pecking order, I have to agree with this.

Unfortunately, so much of the pecking order is about perception, if you're seen as a small time program, you are a small time program until you're not. On the one hand you should commend UC for having the guts to play a home and home with a dangerous opponent. On the other hand, top programs don't lose games that will hurt them in the perception battle. Either play a "legitimate" BCS power so that if you lose, you are seen as at least playing a top team tough, or play patsies who you will undoubtedly crush.

While losing at Fresno is no embarrassment, it's really not something teams who are trying to assert their place on the top rung can afford to do often.

The last few years, teams like Ohio State have used this strategy. Schools schedule one marquee BCS non-conference opponent and then pay a bunch of directional schools to take a beating in Columbus. Unfortunately, UC has bills to pay and can't afford to pay multiple teams to take a beating in Clifton each season. Playing in the Big East also puts pressure on UC to schedule OOC aggressively. If Week 1 was any indication, the Big East is in for a rough season.

I think this perception is also the reason why Ohio State bought out the 2012 game in Cincinnati. I think OSU views UC in much of the same light that UC views Fresno: inferior but strategically dangerous. If you're OSU, there's little shame in losing to USC last year. There's a lot of shame in losing to UC. If you're UC, there's little shame in losing to Va Tech... (you get the idea)

[Redsfan320]

Don't forget they're on tonight at 7:30 on ESPN @ North Carolina State

320

[CTA513]

Looks like UC forgot to show up again.

[paintmered]

Looks like UC forgot to show up again.

Mental mistakes and a lack of quality players inside the box is the downfall of this team so far this season.

Lots of time left. Cats need to turn it around PDQ.

[paintmered]

Collaros throws a ball four yards short of his receiver than picks up a delay of game. 3rd and 12 inside their 20 down 14. Ugh.

And now a bad snap. This is a disaster.

[paintmered]

And now a bad UC punt gives NC St. the ball on the 25.

[paintmered]

It's an interception! It's a catch! No, it's a fumble and a touchback!

[paintmered]

John Goebel is playing like a man possessed, both last weekend and tonight.

[paintmered]

Cats start to drive but then self-destruct as Collaros takes a beating. Not looking good. At all.

[paintmered]

Let's not write the obit yet. Cats get a turnover in NC St territory.

We need the count to keep track of UC bad snaps. It's been a constant this year. And now a false start. UC is quite good at this marching backwards thing.

[paintmered]

3rd and 19? Let's call the QB draw and try the 52 yard field goal.

And Bad Jake hit that like a newbie golfer teeing off in front of a crowd. Oogly.

[Boston Red]

UC just looks stupid bad.

[paintmered]

UC just looks stupid bad.

*sigh*

Yeah, they really do. But not to worry about sucking against a mid-level ACC team, there's always a top-10 team visiting next weekend.

[Reds4Life]

I've had my fill of Butch Jones.

This team has gone backwards in nearly every aspect of the game, and can't do anything right. They aren't prepared coming into games and look lost. The defense sucks, the offensive line is flat out horrible, and the offense looks NOTHING like what we've run for the last two years. I never want to hear again how Jones is BK 2.0, because he isn't, or anything even close to it.

[Boston Red]

Steve Kragthorpe 2.0 looks more like it so far.

[paintmered]

Touchdown DJ Woods. Game on!

[Boston Red]

Sweet D.

[paintmered]

And the defense gives it right back.

[texasdave]

And the obligatory touchdown right before the end of the half for the Wolfpack. How does a guy get that wide open on a short field?

[Cyclone792]

This series right now before the half tells me all I need to know about the difference between Kelly and Jones on offense. Last year, one minute left in the half, move the ball and get in position to score. This year, run up the middle and run the clock out.

The defense looks much the same as last year, if not worse, but unfortunately this offense has regressed so much that simply outscoring opponents isn't going to happen.

[guttle11]

At this rate Mick Cronin might not be the worst coach on campus for long.

[paintmered]

http://buckeyebanter.com/images/football/wesuckagain.jpg

[GIDP]

I understand the frustration but 1 year of a head coach is going to have some bumps. Brian Kelly could easily be blamed for this team as much as anyone.

[paintmered]

I understand the frustration but 1 year of a head coach is going to have some bumps. Brian Kelly could easily be blamed for this team as much as anyone.

This is true. The guy failed at recruiting linemen and linebackers (only four in three classes). UC has a 21 point halftime lead in this game if they control the line of scrimmage. They have credible players at the skill positions, but that's it.

[Reds4Life]

I understand the frustration but 1 year of a head coach is going to have some bumps. Brian Kelly could easily be blamed for this team as much as anyone.

The defense would still be bad if BK was here, but I don't see any chance the offense would be this bad. Jones version of the spread sucks, plain and simple. His play calling is awful, he's playing scared, BK was all for putting a knife to the throat and going for a kill on every single play.

BK is to blame for the poor recruiting in some areas, agree 100%. But the pathetic offense and play calling is all Jones.

[paintmered]

I don't think UC is taking shots downfield because the O-line can't protect Collaros.

[GIDP]

The defense would still be bad if BK was here, but I don't see any chance the offense would be this bad. Jones version of the spread sucks, plain and simple. His play calling is awful, he's playing scared, BK was all for putting a knife to the throat and going for a kill on every single play.

BK is to blame for the poor recruiting in some areas, agree 100%. But the pathetic offense and play calling is all Jones.

Certainly the blame can be spread. I'm just saying judging jones so far might not be the fairest of things. Expectations were probably set high in most of our minds. I hate seeing some crap this team is doing, but its really really early to know what we are dealing with.

[Cedric]

UC doesn't have the tradition to sustain a down year. This could be a total disaster for the Athletic department. They are already in crisis budget mode and has anyone looked at the UC basketball roster yet? They wouldn't be the best team in the MAC.

Not pretty.

[Boston Red]

Based on what I've seen, UC is the worst team in the Big East. Only UofL and Rutgers are even in the conversation with them.

[GIDP]

UC doesn't have the tradition to sustain a down year. This could be a total disaster for the Athletic department. They are already in crisis budget mode and has anyone looked at the UC basketball roster yet? They wouldn't be the best team in the MAC.

Not pretty.

They had down years before they won back to back big east titles just saying.

[paintmered]

UC gives up consecutive sacks. Then a mental mistake negates the 1st down.

Maybe Cronin can teach Butch how to say, "We're young" 40,000 times in a press conference.

[guttle11]

They had down years before they won back to back big east titles just saying.

Through a massive, wholly unprecedented funding effort. And now the athletic department is essentially broke. Can't win in big time football and basketball without money. One thing we know about Cincinnati sports fans is, they're fickle. Reds are good, Bengals are respectable...if UC's not a BCS threat the sports money will shift.

[paintmered]

So does UC win five games this year?

[Reds4Life]

So does UC win five games this year?

I'd say 6-6.

We are going to get destroyed by Oklahoma. With this awesome defense, they will put 60 points on the board with ease.

[GIDP]

Through a massive, wholly unprecedented funding effort. And now the athletic department is essentially broke. Can't win in big time football and basketball without money. One thing we know about Cincinnati sports fans is, they're fickle. Reds are good, Bengals are respectable...if UC's not a BCS threat the sports money will shift.

No doubt but the doomsday stuff right now is a little over stated. No doubt there is reasons to worry and its fine, but 1 year isnt going to kill them. It certainly would hurt.

[Stray]

I guess I've been spoiled the past couple of years, but I thought we would be a lot better than this even with a new coach.

So many mistakes, almost as if they're not prepared for games. Missed tackles everywhere...there have been a lotta clean whiffs. Its looking like a down year, but hey, we've yet to play a conference game so who knows. From what I've seen so far though, they're not ready to beat any decent team. Bummer.

[paintmered]

At least the Big East is down overall this year. It's just that this team has given no reason tonight to be optimistic about salvaging this season.

[paintmered]

Pat Forde: "Cincy cannot block or tackle. Fairly bad combination."

[paintmered]

And as evidence of the above post, UC gets stuffed on 3rd and 1. And then again on 4th and 1.

Game over.

http://www.priceisrightlosinghorn.com/

[Stray]

Jesse Palmer is so annoying lol

[texasdave]

After back to back 93 yard drives the game was over. They were just negotiating the final score from that point on.

[Reds4Life]

2nd & 1 and you can't get the first down? Really? The awesome play calling is to run it straight into the defense on both tries?

Yeah, I'm done with Butch Jones.

[Stray]

they can't block anyone

[paintmered]

Timeout on a punt?!?

[Stray]

and we blow a timeout on a punt

...geez

[paintmered]

Also, Drew Frey, Ben Gudugli and Rob Trigg all went down in this game. Key losses, each of them.

[paintmered]

Blocked punt. It just got worse.

[Stray]

blocked punt

this is sad

[Boston Red]

At least the Big East is down overall this year.

Not sure that's much of a blessing if UC is still the worst team. UC @ Louisville looks like the battle for the cellar to me.

[takealeake]

Cincy is flirting with Krapthorpe danger zone now. Even Klown beat NC State though.

[paintmered]

Armon Binns, welcome to the game.

[paintmered]

And now UC decides to go vertical.

[Stray]

With the athletes Oklahoma has on their d-line, that game could get ugly.

[paintmered]

UC is looking at a 56-3 beatdown next weekend.

And now the announcers are laughing at UC. Awesome.

[Stray]

Honestly, after the way we've played, we kinda deserve it

[paintmered]

Saw this gem on another board...

"Next coach in..."

[texasdave]

some garbage stats for the bearcats. pretty similar to the bengals at new england.

[Caveat Emperor]

Saw this gem on another board...

"Next coach in..."

Somebody posted that on Facebook.

This is a Kragthorpe situation in the making.

[bucksfan2]

Based on what I've seen, UC is the worst team in the Big East. Only UofL and Rutgers are even in the conversation with them.

Marshall took WVU to over time.

UConn looked awful against UM

Lets not sugar coat UC's early performance, but lets also be realistic. This season was a disaster in the making after losing Kelly, playing @ Fresno, @ NC State, and Oklahoma all within the first 4 games of the season.

Lets give Butch a little time before we start calling for his head. UC lost two of their most successful players within the past two decades in Pike and Gilyard. It will take time, maybe this is a lost season, but to call Jones Kragthorp bad right now is stretching it a little.

[GIDP]

Watch them some how beat Oklahoma or play with in a TD, and everyone will be super confused.

[Roy Tucker]

I'll give Jones a chance to right the ship, but boy oh boy, does this team look bad. I can understand lack of skill, but UC looks disorganized and poorly coached.

And any national cred is disappearing very rapidly.

[Stray]

I'll give Jones a chance to right the ship, but boy oh boy, does this team look bad. I can understand lack of skill, but UC looks disorganized and poorly coached.

And any national cred is disappearing very rapidly.

That's pretty much how I feel too. I'm not going to pass judgment on him 3 games into his tenure here, but wow, he's off to a horrific start.

I can handle not having the talent to win, or losing to a better team on a given day. What sucks, is like you said, they seem very disorganized and very poorly coached. We still have conference season, so I guess there is a little hope.

Oh yeah, I also didn't get going for 2 down 11...I know it would have taken a miracle, but crazier things have happened. Burning a TO early in the 4th on a punt was a head scratcher too, at that point just take the 5 yard penalty.

[Sea Ray]

Their offensive line does not know who to block. They allow an unaccounted for rusher to come into Zach's face on every play. This is an issue of coaching and being prepared

[Boston Red]

Dantonio doing that to Kelly has to make you UC fans smile a little, right?

[GIDP]

I care pretty little about both of those guys.

[Captain13]

This week I will be at Paul Brown, wearing red and black. My shirt my have a Louisville Cardinal on it, but for ONE WEEK ONLY I will be cheering for UC. I will even do the UC thing with my arms when the band plays IU's fight song. Go UC beat Oklahoma.

[NorrisHopper30]

Butch will be fine.

[paintmered]

Remember, if you're going to the game on Saturday, wear black. Every home game is a blackout (except for the annual Ring of Red game) and fans have been getting a bit lazy with that lately.

[CTA513]

The scores been close, but you can't be sloppy like UC has and expect to beat a better opponent.

[Reds4Life]

No more DJ Woods on kick returns. He had 2 fumbles against Indiana St and more tonight, one that cost UC the game.

[Stray]

Really sucks we lost, but there is at least hope after tonight's performance. If they play like that, they can win the Big East again this year.

Agree with the guy above, no more Woods on punt returns...that fumble was the game. Throw in his fumble in the end zone...ouch, but he played hard. I can't really get too mad about it. We had our chances...

[reds1869]

I was thrilled to see all of the UC and OU fans out and about downtown the past few days. Some of the Sooner fans I met were very complimentary of Cincinnati. I love it when UC plays big name opponents at PBS, it is great for the city.

[paintmered]

UC looks like they're going to be just fine. It looks like the O-line is coming together, Butch is figuring out how to play call for Zach, and the defense stepped it up when it mattered. With one fewer turnover, UC has a different result. Shoot, even if Jake Rodgers makes his first PAT, they could have gone for two to tie and played for OT instead of having to try the onside kick. Missed PATs always seem to come back to haunt.

D.J. needs to learn to hang onto the ball. The kid is a serious playmaker, but he needs to a playmaker for only one team.

PBS was a lot of fun tonight and the vast majority of the OU fans were well-mannered. I'm a huge proponent of Nippert, but tonight felt "big time" like a bowl game in part to the venue. I might be coming around to the idea of having more UC games on the river after this.

[dabvu2498]

So what's going on with this thread? I kid, UC fans, I kid. :)

I don't know enough about what's been going on in their individual games to know what's "wrong" with UC, but the UC threads were fun to read when they were playing well.

So what are there chances of scratching out 3 more wins and getting to a bowl, maybe?

[Reds4Life]

Jones has flushed all the goodwill this team built up right down the toilet.

There will be lots of excuses thrown around about players that graduated, young starters, a new coach "learning", etc. That doesn't excuse the horrible game preperation, play calling, and absymal play execution. That's on Jones.

The Big East sucks this year, and there is enough talent on this team, there is no excuse to lose at home against USF and SU. NONE. It's looking like the Butch Jones years are shaping up like the Mick Cronin years, plenty of excuses, but not a lot of wins.

[*BaseClogger*]

Good news for Ohio State's recruiting... ;)

[Boston Red]

I guess there is some comfort in knowing that UC is still better than Notre Dame.

[Sea Ray]

Jones has flushed all the goodwill this team built up right down the toilet.

There will be lots of excuses thrown around about players that graduated, young starters, a new coach "learning", etc. That doesn't excuse the horrible game preperation, play calling, and absymal play execution. That's on Jones.

The Big East sucks this year, and there is enough talent on this team, there is no excuse to lose at home against USF and SU. NONE. It's looking like the Butch Jones years are shaping up like the Mick Cronin years, plenty of excuses, but not a lot of wins.

I think Syracuse will challenge Pitt for the Big East crown. They're not bad at all

[Boston Red]

I think Syracuse will challenge Pitt for the Big East crown. They're not bad at all

Pitt shredded Syracuse in the Dome, so Syracuse needs a LOT of help to win the Big East. But Syracuse is definitely much improved.

[Boston Red]

This sounds incredibly familiar to those of us who went through the Kragthorpe era. Sorry UC fans.

http://espn.go.com/blog/bigeast/post/_/id/14720/butch-jones-staying-the-course