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View Full Version : What do we do about a leadoff hitter?



Vottomatic
06-25-2010, 11:57 AM
I keep searching for an answer to our leadoff woes. Brandon Phillips might be the answer. He leads the NL league in runs scored, has 10 stolen bases, and an OBP over .360. But is he more suited for the 2-hole?

Marlins are in 4th place in the East Division, and it looks like the Braves, Mets, and Phillies are going to duke it out for first place. So would the Marlins be willing to deal Ramirez? And would the Reds be willing to take on his contract ($11M - '11, $15M - '12, $15.5M - '13, $16M - '14)? I strongly doubt it.

Biggest problem is that we have many guys coming eligible for arbitration in the near future, that we probably need to lock up now. So no room for adding big long term contracts.

As a sidenote, there are several other "leadoff" caliber players I'm interested, that probably can't be had either, such as Andrew McCutcheon of Pittsburgh, and Shin-Soo Choo of Cleveland. McCutcheon isn't eligible for arbitration until 2013. He's stuck in a bad organization, but they don't care. I'd be willing to give up a pretty good package of players to get him, but doubt Pittsburgh would be willing. Choo is eligible for arbitration next year.

Choo's numbers right now: .289 BA, .389 OBP, 11 SB's (caught 3 times), 10 HR's, 43 runs scored.

By comparison......

Brandon Phillips right now: .307 BA, .366 OBP, 10 SB's (caught 7 times), 9 HR's, 55 runs scored.

By comparison.......
Andrew McCutcheon right now: .305 BA, .384 OBP, 18 SB's (caught 6 times), 7 HR's, 46 runs scored.

By comparison........
Hanley Ramirez right now: .292 BA, .378 OBP, 14 SB's (caught 4 times), 11 HR's, 41 runs scored.

Anyone else we could obtain? I'm looking for guys with speed and a good OBP.

By comparison........
Chris Young (D-Backs, CFer) right now: .273 BA, .338 OBP, 13 SB's (caught twice), 12 HR's, 38 runs scored. 26 years old. Having his best season while playing on a bad team. ($3.5M - '10, $5.2M - '11, $7.2M - '12, $8.5M - '13)

By comparison........
Ryan Braun (Brewers, LF) right now: .305 BA, .365 OBP, 11 SB's (caught once), 10 HR's, 45 runs scored. ($1.3M - '10, $4.3M - '11, $6.3M - '12, $8.8M - '13, $10.3M - '14)

By comparison........
Rajai Davis (Oakland, CF) right now: .269 BA, .313 OBP, 26 SB's (caught 5 times), 2 HR's, 33 runs scored. Batted .305 on the season last year with a .360 OBP. Playing on a bad team? 29 years old. Making $1.3M this season and eligible for arbitration next season.

By comparison........
Alex Rios (White Sox, CF) right now: .313 BA, .372 OBP, 20 SB's (caught 6 times), 13 HR's, 47 runs scored. ($10.2M-'10, $12.5M - '11 & '12, $13M - '13 & '14). 29 years old.

BigPoppa
06-25-2010, 12:28 PM
BP is thriving in the # 2 spot. it took Dusty a loooong time to figure that out, and I don't want to tamper with it now.

I don't want Ramirez, either...................look at how this board howls about Brandon not hustling - and Brandon is 3x the hustler that HanRam is.

Vottomatic
06-25-2010, 12:32 PM
Is anyone else concerned about our leadoff position?

GIDP
06-25-2010, 12:39 PM
I think Phillips has the the talent to do what ever he is asked. He isnt a good clean up guy but you see him change his game to be one. Imagine hitting leadoff where his skill set matches up perfectly almost with what we could want. We all know Dusty loves to give up outs at the top of his line up so if I had my choice that he will likely do I'd switch Phillips and Ocab.

Phillips already leads the NL in runs and hes only hit 2nd for 44 games this year.

Whats really scary is Ocab is 6th on the team in runs and hes hit 1st or 2nd in 58 games this year. Whats even more scary is Gomes is only 3 behind him...

Ocab is 7th in the line up in OBP.

Dusty needs to realize that OBP matters a ton when it comes to scoring runs. I'm sure someone has told him but Dusty doesnt care or listen to anyone because I'm sure he thinks you cant score if you arent fast.

Vottomatic
06-25-2010, 01:16 PM
I think Phillips has the the talent to do what ever he is asked. He isnt a good clean up guy but you see him change his game to be one. Imagine hitting leadoff where his skill set matches up perfectly almost with what we could want. We all know Dusty loves to give up outs at the top of his line up so if I had my choice that he will likely do I'd switch Phillips and Ocab.

Phillips already leads the NL in runs and hes only hit 2nd for 44 games this year.

Whats really scary is Ocab is 6th on the team in runs and hes hit 1st or 2nd in 58 games this year. Whats even more scary is Gomes is only 3 behind him...

Ocab is 7th in the line up in OBP.

Dusty needs to realize that OBP matters a ton when it comes to scoring runs. I'm sure someone has told him but Dusty doesnt care or listen to anyone because I'm sure he thinks you cant score if you arent fast.

Pete Rose wasn't fast either. But he got on base, either by hit or walk, and was aggressive on the basepaths.

The Voice of IH
06-25-2010, 01:27 PM
Chris Heisey?

Vottomatic
06-25-2010, 01:36 PM
Chris Heisey?

I feel bad for Heisey.

I'm not saying he's better than Drew Stubbs. But he might be. But we will never know.

This is an organization that goes by when you were picked in the draft and how much money you are being paid.

Red in Atl
06-25-2010, 02:58 PM
I think they will end up putting Ocab on the dl. His injury has to be the reason he's gone into such a swoon, or age of course. Let Janish play everyday for a few weeks, bat him 8th and bat BP leadoff. Hopefully, a fully healthy Ocab will get us through the year.

But leadoff is definitely something the team needs to look at seriously next year. Heisey still looks too raw out there sometimes. Stubbs is in the same boat. I don't see anyone in AAA that can do it, so we just might need to trade some of our pitching surplus to get a real lead off hitter.

GIDP
06-25-2010, 03:25 PM
Phillips is leading off Ocab hitting 2nd tonight.

bgwilly31
06-25-2010, 03:47 PM
stubbs has one less SO than A.dunn.

he is the worst SO hitter in the league right.

Currently he's like 7th in the league in that category. But everybody around him are Power Hitters and have a ton of walks and Hr's.

its getting pretty bad with him. because its so bad i question whether or not hes even able to fix a stat like that. If he could he would be a great leadoff guy.

However with that kind of stat its hard to even leave in the lineup anywhere.

Mr Larkin
06-25-2010, 04:32 PM
I don't think its that much of a problem. We are winning without a true leadoff hitter. Many teams do not have true leadoff guys at the top and as long as you are scoring your share of runs it does not really matter.

No way I would trade away our valuable pieces just to get a guy to bat first.

Our three game sweep at Seattle had nothing to do with who hit first. It had everything to do with the fact that we didn't hit.

Griffey012
06-25-2010, 04:35 PM
I fear what Phillips will try to do on the bases batting leadoff. He gets picked off enough the way it is, now he is probably going to think "I have to steal cause I am leadoff" just like he thought "I have to hit home runs cause I am cleanup."

bshall2105
06-25-2010, 04:41 PM
I fear what Phillips will try to do on the bases batting leadoff. He gets picked off enough the way it is, now he is probably going to think "I have to steal cause I am leadoff" just like he thought "I have to hit home runs cause I am cleanup."

I don't know why Brandon has to change his approach when he's hitting in a different spot. What ever happened to just playing baseball? If Phillips just "played" no matter what the circumstance was he would never have this problem.

CWRed
06-25-2010, 06:15 PM
OCab behind BP means no pitches for BP. So the punishment for a month-long slump by Cabrera is????? Batting 2nd. Dusty feels like a man again with his SS batting 2nd. But needs Rolaids because his 2B is batting leadoff.

OCab was a huge reason the Reds went on a winning binge but I now wish he would go on the DL so Janish would get one chance. He could hardly be worse with the bat. Of course I bet Cairo would get plenty of starts at SS in this case and that means I would puke blood again.

The Voice of IH
06-25-2010, 06:27 PM
I fear what Phillips will try to do on the bases batting leadoff. He gets picked off enough the way it is, now he is probably going to think "I have to steal cause I am leadoff" just like he thought "I have to hit home runs cause I am cleanup."

whoa, the reason why we are having this discussion is because we are presently lacking a leadoff hitter that gets on base and is able to move over. If BP hits leadoff...I want him to steal, he has enough speed and can help the middle of the lineup by putting more pressure on the defense and making the pitcher think too much. If he is able to do that the Reds lineup will be pretty nasty 1-6 or7.

Roush's socks
06-26-2010, 01:12 AM
I think BP should be the leadoff, and after today he just might be there for awhile. In the end I'm not sure it matters that much. The Reds are scoring a lot of runs becuse they have guys hitting well throughout the lineup.

ian_madden
06-26-2010, 03:30 AM
Is anyone else concerned about our leadoff position?

I'm not upset with current situation. OCab is a leader. Period.

ian_madden
06-26-2010, 03:35 AM
I don't know why Brandon has to change his approach when he's hitting in a different spot. What ever happened to just playing baseball? If Phillips just "played" no matter what the circumstance was he would never have this problem.

BP 4 spot= power, drive in runs
BP 5 spot= power, drive in runs
BP 2 spot= get on base, advance runners, score runs
BP 1 spot= get on base, advance runners, score runs

What are is your question?

Vottomatic
06-26-2010, 04:16 AM
I'm not upset with current situation. OCab is a leader. Period.

A leader at what? Lowering his batting average (.241)? Not getting on base (.278 OBP)?
Is there some unwritten rule that says he has to bat 1st or 2nd in the lineup to lead?
He can lead just as well batting 7th or 8th.

OBP of our current lineup:

Phillips - .366
Cabrera - .278
Votto - .409
Rolen - .366
Gomes - .347
Bruce - .364
Stubbs - .309
Hernandez - .374

Gee, isn't it pretty obvious why Rolen and Gomes have more RBI's than Votto? BECAUSE JOEY GETS ON BASE AND OCAB DOESN'T. DUH. He's always on for Rolen and Gomes to knock in. Pretty impressive OBP's in that lineup except for OCab being a tremendous weak link. He should be batting 7th or 8th, seriously. And frankly, I'd trade for Shin-Soo Choo in a heartbeat and bat him second behind Phillips.

Phillips 2B - .366 OBP, 9 HR's, 24 RBI, 56 Runs, 10 SB's, .308 BA
Choo CF - .389 OBP, 10 HR's, 37 RBI, 43 Runs, 11 SB's, .286 BA
Votto 1B - .409 OBP, 15 HR's, 47 RBI, 46 Runs, 7 SB's, .304 BA
Rolen 3B - .366 OBP, 16 HR's, 48 RBI, 40 Runs, .303 BA
Gomes LF - .347 OBP, 9 HR's, 51 RBI, 30 Runs, .291 BA
Bruce RF - .364 OBP, 9 HR's, 34 RBI, 43 Runs, 5 SB's, .287 BA
Cabrera SS - .278 OBP, 3 HR's, 27 RBI, 33 Runs, 10 SB's, .241 BA
Hernandez C - .374 OBP, 3 HR's, 16 RBI, 13 Runs, .287 BA

Choo showed a tremendous outfield arm tonight on that throw to home plate. I think it barely skipped before the catcher caught it. Very strong arm. We'd lose nothing with him defensively. And it allows our weak link SS to move down in the order and gives Votto somebody to knock in more often than not, like with OCab.

Choo is making the minimum this year.

bshall2105
06-26-2010, 04:36 AM
BP 4 spot= power, drive in runs
BP 5 spot= power, drive in runs
BP 2 spot= get on base, advance runners, score runs
BP 1 spot= get on base, advance runners, score runs

What are is your question?

Someone else commented on how they hope BP doesn't change his approach, I was hoping the same thing, as well as wondering why his mentality would change going from the 2 hole to lead off. No questioning here.

mrherd05
06-26-2010, 06:18 AM
Vottomatic seems to be forgetting that we are in first place, why continue to tinker with something that is working.

He also seems to be in love with Votto.

I will tell you one BIG thing that Cabrera brings to the table that Votto doesnt. You can count on him having the be pulled from the field kicking and screaming due to injury, or being tired. Votto on the other hand, well, lets just say that if it THAT time of the month, you dont know what you are going to get from him, a stiff neck, a broken heart, a bad series swinging at the air....who knows.

tbball10
06-26-2010, 08:29 AM
Vottomatic seems to be forgetting that we are in first place, why continue to tinker with something that is working.

He also seems to be in love with Votto.

I will tell you one BIG thing that Cabrera brings to the table that Votto doesnt. You can count on him having the be pulled from the field kicking and screaming due to injury, or being tired. Votto on the other hand, well, lets just say that if it THAT time of the month, you dont know what you are going to get from him, a stiff neck, a broken heart, a bad series swinging at the air....who knows.

I'll take Votto over 99% of the league everyday of the week

lidspinner
06-26-2010, 09:01 AM
I'll take Votto over 99% of the league everyday of the week

Ill take a handfull of our minor leaguers over OC any day of the week.

Griffey012
06-26-2010, 12:02 PM
Wow...first place, a nice 10-3 victory, another Dusty lineup swap that worked well for the first game (BPhil and OCab both 2-5), and we can't get past ripping on players, coaches, and board members? Glorious!

GIDP
06-26-2010, 12:04 PM
I have a strange feeling that Ocab is going to be back in the leadoff spot today. I also get a feeling that Stubbs wont even be in the line up.

Griffey012
06-26-2010, 12:18 PM
I have a strange feeling that Ocab is going to be back in the leadoff spot today. I also get a feeling that Stubbs wont even be in the line up.

Dusty is really smarter than that. He made a switch, Phillips didn't miss a beat and OCab went 2-5. And if he is back in the leadoff spot, I will be confused, baffled, and ready to eat crow.

Vottomatic
06-26-2010, 12:39 PM
Please keep in mind we played the third worst team (by record) in MLB and they were starting a relief pitcher against us (trying something new).

Yes, I'm happy to be back in first place.

I still think we need some tinkering, though.

Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 04:01 PM
A leader at what? Lowering his batting average (.241)? Not getting on base (.278 OBP)?
Is there some unwritten rule that says he has to bat 1st or 2nd in the lineup to lead?
He can lead just as well batting 7th or 8th.

OBP of our current lineup:

Phillips - .366
Cabrera - .278
Votto - .409
Rolen - .366
Gomes - .347
Bruce - .364
Stubbs - .309
Hernandez - .374

Gee, isn't it pretty obvious why Rolen and Gomes have more RBI's than Votto? BECAUSE JOEY GETS ON BASE AND OCAB DOESN'T. DUH. He's always on for Rolen and Gomes to knock in. Pretty impressive OBP's in that lineup except for OCab being a tremendous weak link. He should be batting 7th or 8th, seriously. And frankly, I'd trade for Shin-Soo Choo in a heartbeat and bat him second behind Phillips.

Phillips 2B - .366 OBP, 9 HR's, 24 RBI, 56 Runs, 10 SB's, .308 BA
Choo CF - .389 OBP, 10 HR's, 37 RBI, 43 Runs, 11 SB's, .286 BA
Votto 1B - .409 OBP, 15 HR's, 47 RBI, 46 Runs, 7 SB's, .304 BA
Rolen 3B - .366 OBP, 16 HR's, 48 RBI, 40 Runs, .303 BA
Gomes LF - .347 OBP, 9 HR's, 51 RBI, 30 Runs, .291 BA
Bruce RF - .364 OBP, 9 HR's, 34 RBI, 43 Runs, 5 SB's, .287 BA
Cabrera SS - .278 OBP, 3 HR's, 27 RBI, 33 Runs, 10 SB's, .241 BA
Hernandez C - .374 OBP, 3 HR's, 16 RBI, 13 Runs, .287 BA

Choo showed a tremendous outfield arm tonight on that throw to home plate. I think it barely skipped before the catcher caught it. Very strong arm. We'd lose nothing with him defensively. And it allows our weak link SS to move down in the order and gives Votto somebody to knock in more often than not, like with OCab.

Choo is making the minimum this year.

Choo eating us alive.

Looks like getting him would be a good move. He'd be my new 2-hole hitter. :thumbup:

GIDP
06-27-2010, 05:03 PM
Choo eating us alive.

Looks like getting him would be a good move. He'd be my new 2-hole hitter. :thumbup:

Good luck convincing anyone that Gomes needs to be replaced. :O.

Mr Larkin
06-27-2010, 05:06 PM
Isn't Choo scheduled to go back to Korea for military obligations? I think that was mentioned before the season - this may be his final MLB season at least for a while.

Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Isn't Choo scheduled to go back to Korea for military obligations? I think that was mentioned before the season - this may be his final MLB season at least for a while.

Off of wikipedia.org:



Military Service
South Korea has mandatory military service for men and Choo is required to serve about 2 years before he turns 30 in 2012. The government gives de-facto waivers to athletes by requiring them only to serve 4-week long basic military training under limited circumstances, which Choo missed several times. In addition, the South Korean government does not allow an individual to give up their citizenship to avoid military service.

In 2006, he was not selected for the South Korean team for 2006 World Baseball Classic in which South Korea placed third. The government unexpectedly decided to give military waivers to the members but it was one-time-only. The decision was reaffirmed after the 2009 World Baseball Classic in which Choo competed and South Korea took the second place.

In the 2008 Beijing Olympics he was certain to make it to the national team but could not as the Commissioner's office did not allow players on the 25-man roster to play in the Olympics. The team also was aware of his special circumstances but kept him on the 25-man roster as he was out of minor league options. Olympic medalists are given military waivers in South Korea and he could have received a waiver had he competed as the South Korean team won a gold medal. However baseball has been voted out of the 2012 London Olympic games.

Currently the only option he has is to win a gold medal in the 2010 Asian games in Guangzhou. KBO(Korean Baseball Organization) expressed that he will be included in the national team.

One of the dumbest things I've ever read. South Korea does not allow you to give up citizenship to avoid military service? Give me a break. So if he wanted to become a U.S. citizen, what are they going to do? Kidnap him? Stupid.

bshall2105
06-27-2010, 09:19 PM
One of the dumbest things I've ever read. South Korea does not allow you to give up citizenship to avoid military service? Give me a break. So if he wanted to become a U.S. citizen, what are they going to do? Kidnap him? Stupid.

And here I thought the North Koreans were the communists.

Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Dayton Daily News article about Choo's military service: http://www.sportsfanlive.com/web/article?action=viewArticle&articleId=8837836&team=mlb-cincinnati_reds&tid=twitter

I still think that's a crock. Dude is raking it, baseball career finally taking off. Next couple of years he will be in his prime and probably his best years, and they want him to come back and serve the military????

I'd defect and denounce my citizenship if that's how my country treated me.