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View Full Version : Official: Aroldis Chapman has been moved to the bullpen.



batsfan
06-25-2010, 08:42 PM
It was just announced on the Louisville Bats broadcast that Aroldis Chapman has been moved out of the rotation, and will pitch in the bullpen, as the Reds think he will be able to help sooner from there. Jesus Delgaldo will take his place in the Bats rotation.

Maker_84
06-25-2010, 08:52 PM
this is good

muddie
06-25-2010, 08:55 PM
Interesting.

malcontent
06-25-2010, 08:56 PM
I like this about as much as I like rushing Volquez back from TJ surgery.

Griffey012
06-25-2010, 09:07 PM
Can't wait to see him come in throwing some serious gas outta the pen'...lets hope he keeps control of it though.

I wonder if coming in with the game on the line will make him focus on throwing strikes more. When you start, a pitcher's mentality can be more long term instead of short term

Maker_84
06-25-2010, 09:25 PM
he's not rdy to be a starter right now. just keep it simple for him right now and have him blow past ppl with 100-103 mph fast balls for an inning or 2!

The Voice of IH
06-25-2010, 10:03 PM
I love this!!! Chapman in the Bull Pen is going to be killer. this team now has what it takes :cool:

GIDP
06-25-2010, 10:27 PM
Its not a full time move if anyone didnt catch what Jocketty said about it.

They just dont see him fitting in the rotation this year and want to see him up in the pen to at least help the team for the stretch run.

Kingspoint
06-25-2010, 10:38 PM
Its not a full time move if anyone didnt catch what Jocketty said about it.

They just dont see him fitting in the rotation this year and want to see him up in the pen to at least help the team for the stretch run.

It makes a lot of sense to me. This way he helps the team, and the team gets to control him for a longer period of time this year while he's working on his pitching mechanics.

Our bullpen needs a guy who throws that kind of heat. He could really do some damage to the opposing team with just an inning of work.

Roush's socks
06-26-2010, 02:02 AM
The Reds can use Chapman in the bullpen and take advantage of the fact that he is so hard for LH hitting to hit. Just having him for certain situations could make a huge difference.

I think they see Volquez coming into the rotation to replace Leake. Then Bailey and Lecure will battle for the 5th spot. If (when) they make the playoffs, the 5th starter is not a factor anyway.

bshall2105
06-26-2010, 03:37 AM
Its not a full time move if anyone didnt catch what Jocketty said about it.

They just dont see him fitting in the rotation this year and want to see him up in the pen to at least help the team for the stretch run.

If this was a full time move that would be a huge waste of money.

malcontent
06-26-2010, 03:44 AM
I don't see how this helps him improve his command/control, which I thought was his biggest issue.

So he's going to ditch his slider and change in a relief role? Thats not going to help him become an MLB starter.

And does anyone really think he's going to be a sure thing as a reliever? I'm afraid that this is the Reds' answer to the Strasburg phenomenon and designed to increase attendance, more than to help the team make the post-season.

TC81190
06-26-2010, 03:51 AM
I don't think this is a move for attendance, if anything they're giving away the inflated attendance number they would gain from having his MLB debut also be his first start.

Griffey012
06-26-2010, 12:55 PM
I don't see how this helps him improve his command/control, which I thought was his biggest issue.

So he's going to ditch his slider and change in a relief role? Thats not going to help him become an MLB starter.

And does anyone really think he's going to be a sure thing as a reliever? I'm afraid that this is the Reds' answer to the Strasburg phenomenon and designed to increase attendance, more than to help the team make the post-season.

He isn't going to ditch the slider and change. In relief or starting, you can't get by with a 100 mph fastball alone. It will be a fastball/slider and maybe an occasional change, but most likely the change will be ditched.

I agree he is no sure thing as a reliever, it will be interesting to see how he does with the BB's and such. But it is not a response to Strasburg or an attendance thing, we are putting ourselves in the middle of a pennant chase, it is all about trying to win ballgames, and his best chance to help us this season is in the bullpen.

GIDP
06-26-2010, 12:56 PM
Yea winning games will bring more fans to the park than anything.

TheBigLebowski
06-26-2010, 01:01 PM
A team like the Reds does not drop this kind of coin on a middle reliever. This is a temporary move. AC's future is as a starter.

markymark69
06-26-2010, 01:06 PM
It's not like this hasn't happened before. The Yankees did this with Phil Hughes. The Dodgers did it with Clayton Kershaw and used to do it a ton years ago.

The bullpen is Chapman's path to the majors and at 6 years, 30 million, you know he's not going to pitch at Louisville the entire year - Castellini would want a quicker return on his investment. Long term, the plan still looks to be Chapman starting.

As far as what putting butt in the seats, isn't that what it all about? Whether its winning games or getting the chance to see a prospect like Chapman pitch or both, what is wrong with that?

Old NDN
06-26-2010, 01:17 PM
Much is made of Chapman's lack of control. Masset, Cordero, and DRH all have the same affliction and they're still here. A lot of upside to Chapman if they ease him into the bullpen, IMO. But, I agree, the Reds didn't shell out those pesos for a middle reliever.

lidspinner
06-26-2010, 02:03 PM
it was of my opinion that moving Chapman to the pen meant that management could let him ride a few innings if he was going well, and yank him if he is wild or gettting rocked and not have to deal with the media backlash of yanking your starter after an inning or 2.....this way if he walks 2 or 3 in a row, then Dusty can get him out just like any other relief pitcher....being a starter, Dusty would have to ride his rough times out a few innings and you just cannot do that and expect to win many games. Of course that is just my opinion

HalMorrisRules
06-26-2010, 03:52 PM
Fangraphs discussed this situation and really took a pretty fair look at both sides of the debate.

Fangraphs (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/reds-doing-the-earl-weaver-with-chapman/)

Vottomatic
06-26-2010, 08:16 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/22799310

According to the linked article above, Jocketty says they plan to let him pitch out of the bullpen for the next 3 weeks, see how it goes and then call him up to the big leagues as a reliever.

Hmmm.

abish1572
06-29-2010, 06:51 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22297882/22799310

According to the linked article above, Jocketty says they plan to let him pitch out of the bullpen for the next 3 weeks, see how it goes and then call him up to the big leagues as a reliever.

Hmmm.

I like this idea... We really do need to replace owings... seems like everytime he pitches he gives up runs...

brm7675
06-29-2010, 07:02 PM
Wow they go and sign GMJ which was a dumb move and now and go and do this. Just when you think this organization if finally turning the corner and getting it right.

RedsFanInBama
06-30-2010, 01:45 AM
Stupid and shortsighted.

RedsFanInBama
06-30-2010, 01:52 AM
It's not like this hasn't happened before. The Yankees did this with Phil Hughes. The Dodgers did it with Clayton Kershaw.
No and no.

Hughes came to the majors as a starter and made darn near 30 starts before the Yankees decided he needed to go to the pen to get straightened out. They didn't start him in the majors as a reliever and then move him to a starter. He began as a starter. When he hit a rough patch, he went to the pen. Then he went back to starting.

Kershaw has never been anything but a starter. Not sure where you got that one.

bshall2105
06-30-2010, 02:18 AM
I like this idea... We really do need to replace owings... seems like everytime he pitches he gives up runs...

The last thing we need to do is replace Owings. He's actually been decent all year. He fills a specific role on this team and does a good job in it. Winning teams need role players like Micah Owings.

swaisuc
06-30-2010, 09:28 AM
No and no.

Hughes came to the majors as a starter and made darn near 30 starts before the Yankees decided he needed to go to the pen to get straightened out. They didn't start him in the majors as a reliever and then move him to a starter. He began as a starter. When he hit a rough patch, he went to the pen. Then he went back to starting.

Kershaw has never been anything but a starter. Not sure where you got that one.

The obvious example of it working is Johan Santana. I think in terms of the blueprint for his usage/future, David Price is the best comparison.

brm7675
06-30-2010, 11:30 AM
Chapman is a unique situation, and there is no other example like him in baseball really. I think this is a bad move long term for this kids developement and his outing last night supports that.

RedsFanInBama
06-30-2010, 12:19 PM
I think this is a bad move long term for this kids development ...

I agree. We're going to ask him to go to the bullpen and throw almost exclusively fastballs, likely ditch the change completely for the rest of the year, and then think it's not going to stunt his development as a starter? This guy should still be starting games and working on his mechanics and delivery in the minors. He doesn't need to come to the majors, throw out of the pen, and then spend his other time on the side working on mechanics. Talk about a clusterf*ck.

brm7675
06-30-2010, 01:46 PM
The really sad thing is that "joe" fan will love this and go crazy when the Reds call him up and put him in the bullpen. This club continues to look long term. A few years back we were "in' the race so our GM traded Kearns/Lopez for a bunch of bullpen arms because the thought was we needed bullpen help to make the playoffs. Well how did that work out for us? It would be nice to have a plan, and stick to it.


I agree. We're going to ask him to go to the bullpen and throw almost exclusively fastballs, likely ditch the change completely for the rest of the year, and then think it's not going to stunt his development as a starter? This guy should still be starting games and working on his mechanics and delivery in the minors. He doesn't need to come to the majors, throw out of the pen, and then spend his other time on the side working on mechanics. Talk about a clusterf*ck.

Kiss the Baby00
06-30-2010, 02:24 PM
grienke and david price both pitched out of the pen.

RedsFanInBama
06-30-2010, 03:03 PM
Greinke is the the same mold as Hughes. He came up as a starter, made a bunch of starts and then moved to the pen.

David Price was a much more polished product than Chapman when he came up. He didn't have nearly as much to work on, he just needed experience.

brm7675
06-30-2010, 03:08 PM
Chapman doesn't have anywhere near the background that either of those guys had. Remember this is a young kid who pitched for the Cuban team, no structure, no discipline and such.


grienke and david price both pitched out of the pen.

FlyerFanatic
06-30-2010, 03:10 PM
theres nothing wrong with using chapman in the pen and moving him to a starter later. i like this move

RedsFanInBama
06-30-2010, 03:16 PM
It's like the FO is trying to force this guy into being ready to pitch in the major leagues and he just isn't.

redsfanmia
06-30-2010, 04:03 PM
Soto and Rijo are probably the Reds best two pitchers of the last 30 years and they both started out their Reds career out of the bullpen and eased into the rotation.

scott91575
07-01-2010, 03:11 AM
Soto and Rijo are probably the Reds best two pitchers of the last 30 years and they both started out their Reds career out of the bullpen and eased into the rotation.

Rijo was in the Minors at the age of 16 and Soto at the age of 18. Soto had around 70 starts and 3 years in the system before seeing bullpen time. Jose Rijo had 50 starts and 3 years on the system before seeing bullpen time. Chapman has a grand total of 13 starts and only a few months in the system. His time in Cuba does not compare to being in a Minor league system.

Now, will this destroy his career? Highly unlikely. Yet it can set back his development as a starter, and honestly, what are the Reds getting? A big unknown. It's an impatient move, plain and simple. There will be plenty of relievers in the next month that can be had for not a whole lot, and they will be proven commodities.

It's amazing how people here think as soon as Chapman shows up he will be Randy Johnson in his prime. The kid has a 4.35 era and 1.49 WHIP in AAA, an era of almost 6 in June, and an ERA of almost 8 in the bullpen. It's pretty clear he still has a lot to learn. Why screw around with his development just to rush someone to the majors? Because he has some buzz surrounding him? Because he makes a lot of money?

If he comes up to the majors and is lights out in the bullpen for 2+ months I will be shocked. He will probably struggle at times, and not help the team in the least vs. another reliever available near the trade deadline. In the mean time you keep pushing back his development as a starter.

texasdave
07-01-2010, 06:03 AM
Maybe Chapman to the bullpen is actually Plan B. Maybe it has been Plan B all along. Plan A could very well be to pick up quality major league relief help at the trade deadline. However, Walt Jocketty wouldn't want to wake up on August 1st and then just begin to put Plan B into effect if Plan A doesn't materialize. It could very well be that nobody in Reds' management wants to see Chapman have to come up as a reliever, but they are simply covering all bases. It is prudent that they see if he can adjust to this role now as opposed to waiting until August 1st to put this plan into effect. If he adapts to the new role it gives the club some leverage. They won't HAVE TO overpay if they are sure they already have a viable in-house fall back option. If they acquire bullpen help at a reasonable cost or if Chapman shows he cannot handle the role they have lost nothing. They can stick Chapman back in the rotation and all this experiment will have done is limit his innings. And that isn't such a bad thing.

scott91575
07-01-2010, 07:00 AM
Maybe Chapman to the bullpen is actually Plan B. Maybe it has been Plan B all along. Plan A could very well be to pick up quality major league relief help at the trade deadline. However, Walt Jocketty wouldn't want to wake up on August 1st and then just begin to put Plan B into effect if Plan A doesn't materialize. It could very well be that nobody in Reds' management wants to see Chapman have to come up as a reliever, but they are simply covering all bases. It is prudent that they see if he can adjust to this role now as opposed to waiting until August 1st to put this plan into effect. If he adapts to the new role it gives the club some leverage. They won't HAVE TO overpay if they are sure they already have a viable in-house fall back option. If they acquire bullpen help at a reasonable cost or if Chapman shows he cannot handle the role they have lost nothing. They can stick Chapman back in the rotation and all this experiment will have done is limit his innings. And that isn't such a bad thing.

I see your point, and I also thought of that. Yet stopping a players growth at the 13 start point is too early IMO. If he was starting to hit a consistent point in starting (which he was not) I could see doing it. Yet this is going to reverse some of that. I see it as pushing forward his ability to be an effective starter by a few months for a just in case this year. I think that is too much. We are starting to see what happens to changing up a starters routine with Leake, and I feel Leake is much more ready for those types of changes than Chapman. This year should have been a teaching year for Chapman. Instead they are screwing with his learning curve, and that extends his effectiveness date exponentially at this point.

I know everyone wants to win now. Yet I don't see Chapman winning more than 1 game in the bullpen vs. even a replacement player (you have to be a super bullpen arm to get more than 1 win vs. replacement in a couple of months). Yet it can cost 3 or 4 wins next year by setting him back as a starter. Of course that is assuming my belief that changing him to the bullpen now exponentially retards some of his starter effectiveness. I believe that to be true since he has so few starts in the minors. If he was at the 30 or 40 start point I wouldn't have as much of an issue. We shall see. I hope I am wrong.

Orodle
07-01-2010, 04:11 PM
grienke and david price both pitched out of the pen.

as well as Roy Oswalt

RedsFanInBama
07-01-2010, 06:56 PM
Oswalt also spent 4+ seasons in the minor leagues and made more than 80 starts along the way. All of these guys being mentioned as examples of scenarios that worked have one major difference: They all were much more developed as pitchers before they went to the major leagues than Chapman is. We're basically asking Chapman to come to the majors to develop. That's a bad, bad way to bring along a pitcher.

FlyerFanatic
07-01-2010, 10:22 PM
Oswalt also spent 4+ seasons in the minor leagues and made more than 80 starts along the way. All of these guys being mentioned as examples of scenarios that worked have one major difference: They all were much more developed as pitchers before they went to the major leagues than Chapman is. We're basically asking Chapman to come to the majors to develop. That's a bad, bad way to bring along a pitcher.

its not like chapman hasnt pitched before. this isnt a guy right off the street, theres a reason why chapman started in AAA, he can pitch a little bit. is he rough around the edges, so to speak? sure, but a stint in the bullpen wont hurt.

lidspinner
07-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Hey scott91575.....go look at Randy Johnson's stats when he first came up...amazing at how much better or how much Chapman is close to RJ at the same point in their life.....an argument could be made to say Chapman is the better pitcher at that point. I want to say Randy was walking like 7 batters per 9 innings his fiirst few years.

RedsFanInBama
07-01-2010, 10:42 PM
And he's not exactly tearing it up in AAA, either. I hope it works out, but I don't see it helping the Reds right away or him long term.