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View Full Version : Cardinals after Dan Haren



Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 06:20 PM
According to mlbtraderumors.com.

That would stink.

bgwilly31
06-27-2010, 06:22 PM
We should be too.

Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 06:25 PM
We're sitting on our hands. Castellini doesn't want to spend any money. He's cheap.

Griffey012
06-27-2010, 07:01 PM
We're sitting on our hands. Castellini doesn't want to spend any money. He's cheap.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html Castellini bought the club in November of 2005. The payroll has increased from 60 million to 76 million. We have also seen the Reds spending big in latin america.

Castellini isn't cheap, he wants to win as bad as we do. We aren't sitting on our hands, Jocketty is working daily to try and improve the team, the right deal just hasn't surfaced yet.

Mr Larkin
06-27-2010, 07:02 PM
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html Castellini bought the club in November of 2005. The payroll has increased from 60 million to 76 million. We have also seen the Reds spending big in latin america.

Castellini isn't cheap, he wants to win as bad as we do. We aren't sitting on our hands, Jocketty is working daily to try and improve the team, the right deal just hasn't surfaced yet.

I agree.

jmac
06-27-2010, 08:20 PM
While we may talking of STL after Haren, the STL fans may be sayin " we got to do something, they're getting Volquez back !" ;)

Orodle
06-27-2010, 09:25 PM
we need to keep STL from getting him almost more than we need him ourselves.

bshall2105
06-27-2010, 09:28 PM
we need to keep STL from getting him almost more than we need him ourselves.

How do we keep STL from getting him? Wouldn't that be gettng him ourselves?

FlyerFanatic
06-27-2010, 09:37 PM
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html Castellini bought the club in November of 2005. The payroll has increased from 60 million to 76 million. We have also seen the Reds spending big in latin america.

Castellini isn't cheap, he wants to win as bad as we do. We aren't sitting on our hands, Jocketty is working daily to try and improve the team, the right deal just hasn't surfaced yet.

i disagree. i'm not disputing that the payroll has been bumped but if castellini really wanted to win he'd bump the payroll about another 20-30 mill more. if he really really cared he'd put us near yankee level type payroll. but not every owner can do that and they're business men, thats how they got their money. i'm just saying, if an owner really really wanted to win, they simply bump the payroll. this wont guarantee championships, as we saw for like 9 yrs when the yanks went into a slump, but the team will be in the post season most years.

we wouldnt be talking about a big bat we need, cuz castellini would have gotten him, etc...just how baseball is, and until/if a cap ever comes around, gonna be that way.

improbus
06-27-2010, 09:54 PM
I think the fact that Castellini put the money into Chapman proves that things are different now.

FlyerFanatic
06-27-2010, 09:55 PM
I think the fact that Castellini put the money into Chapman proves that things are different now.

i agree that was a great sign, the question i had was where did that money come from. but then the way the contract was setup, i saw how it was pretty manageable because mainly hes not getting paid a whole lot until harang/arroyo are probably off our books

Fullboat
06-27-2010, 09:56 PM
How exactly are the Cards going to get Haren? Their minors are thread bare and
payroll will be increased for Pujols new contract.I bet this the D-backs way of
upping his worth.

lidspinner
06-27-2010, 09:58 PM
I still have alot of faith that Cast is trying hard for Dan Haren. We need another true starter for the next few years....and Dan Haren is going to eat some innings.

Az. Reds Fan
06-27-2010, 10:04 PM
I don't have any doubts about the D'backs selling quite a few parts before the trade deadline. One scenario I can see going down is the D'backs trading LaRoche, then trading Haren to the Reds for a package centered around Alonso. The only issue with that is the D'backs do have their own first base prospect in Brandon Allen down in Reno.

Having said that, if the D'backs do trade Haren, I certainly hope he goes to the Reds as opposed to the Cards

muddie
06-27-2010, 10:08 PM
We're sitting on our hands. Castellini doesn't want to spend any money. He's cheap.

I still don't understand the logic here. Travis Wood is sitting in AAA with really good numbers and there is this on going call to trade for a starter. Why throw away decent minor leaguers in this system for Haren? His better days are behind him. Give Wood a shot and also consider Volquez is only days away at this point. I've said it once and I'll say it again, be patient.

Krawhitham
06-27-2010, 10:09 PM
While we may talking of STL after Haren, the STL fans may be sayin " we got to do something, they're getting Volquez back !" ;)

I'll take Haren over roid-boy

The Reds need to go after Haren just so STL does not get him

muddie
06-27-2010, 10:11 PM
I'll take Haren over roid-boy

The Reds need to go after Haren just so STL does not get him

Going after a guy just so another team doesn't get him is without rationale in my opinion. Leave his salary alone.

Vottomatic
06-27-2010, 10:38 PM
I still don't understand the logic here. Travis Wood is sitting in AAA with really good numbers and there is this on going call to trade for a starter. Why throw away decent minor leaguers in this system for Haren? His better days are behind him. Give Wood a shot and also consider Volquez is only days away at this point. I've said it once and I'll say it again, be patient.

I don't understand this incessant need to keep our prospects. WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO PLAY?

What prospects are ready to unseat Votto, Phillips, Cabrera/Janish, Rolen, Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce, Dickerson, Gomes, Hanigan/Hernandez in the near future?

Rolen is signed for 2 more years, then we need a replacement. Plenty of time.

Phillips might become too expensive with his increasing salary. But I see no immediate minor league replacement for him.

Shortstop is a need, but our best shortstop minor leaguers are in the lower levels. Cozart has had a mediocre season.

Think about it. Our minor leagues have produced 4 of our outfielders - Dickerson, Heisey, Bruce, Stubbs. Our first baseman - Votto. A backup shorstop - Janish. Our best catcher - Hanigan. 2 starting pitchers - Cueto, Bailey. Possibly Travis Wood next. 2 of our current relief pitchers - Ondrusek, Smith. Dickerson is currently on the DL, so it's 11 total players, but 10 currently on our active 25 man with Dickerson on the DL. That's 40% of our 25 man filled by our minor league system.

Brandon Phillips was a steal of a trade and so was Rolen. Hernandez for Freel? Good trade. Arroyo for Willy Mo? Steal. Gomes for $800,000? Steal.

Relief pitching? Other than Donnie Joseph and the guys already up here like Ondrusek and maybe Jordan Smith.........I'm not that impressed with our minor league relievers.

Starting pitching? We seem to have an abundance of it. Maybe not #1 or #2 starter quality, but we have a bunch of #3's thru #5's in Arroyo, Harang, Cueto, Leake, Bailey, Volquez, Wood, Maloney, Klinker, Chapman, and even possibly LeCure. Sure, Harang and Arroyo probably walk to Free Agency next year. I wouldn't mind re-signing Bronson for the right price though.

Dan Haren ($12.75M) is signed through 2012 for slightly more than we were paying Harang ($12.5M). Haren has better trending numbers than Harang. It would basically be a salary wash for a better pitcher.

I just don't get the love for our prospects. We have filled enough spots with them. Time to go for it.

Trading our prospects is not going to ruin this team for years to come because we're already pretty young overall. :thumbup:

webbbj
06-28-2010, 02:44 AM
haren is a nice pitcher and was a cy young candidate the past few years but so far this year he hasnt pitched great. he hasnt been any better than either cueto, leake, or arroyo. and harang has gotten better each month i still think we neeed to upgrade the rotation but i think cliff lee is the guy. hes a proven winner in playoff games and is an Ace.

if volquez is back to 2008 form w/ cliff lee and the number 1 offense in the NL we really got a shot to win this thing.

2 weeks ago i had a different opinion and thought that it wasnt worth doing anything big but now this team has showed me more and i think they got a real run in them.

lidspinner
06-28-2010, 11:32 AM
haren is a nice pitcher and was a cy young candidate the past few years but so far this year he hasnt pitched great. he hasnt been any better than either cueto, leake, or arroyo. and harang has gotten better each month i still think we neeed to upgrade the rotation but i think cliff lee is the guy. hes a proven winner in playoff games and is an Ace.

if volquez is back to 2008 form w/ cliff lee and the number 1 offense in the NL we really got a shot to win this thing.

2 weeks ago i had a different opinion and thought that it wasnt worth doing anything big but now this team has showed me more and i think they got a real run in them.


OK, Ill ask you what I have asked every other person with the same opinion as yours.....Would you wager your top prospects plus a MLB starter for a few month rental of Cliff Lee? Lee is not going to sign here next year as long as the Yankees and Red sox and other top market teams keep over paying for pitching....Cliff Lee is going to hit the free agent market running and not look back, he should get CC money. NOW, unless the Reds FO has inside info saying that Cliff Lee would sign here, then why would you give up this

Yonder
Travis Wood
Frazier
Stubbs or Homer or Cueto or Heisy

and I am putting the value low on that trade...it is very possible they want more than that....its also possible they take less....but right now it is going to take the moon to get Cliff Lee and he is more than likely only staying on till years end.

So the question is would you mortgage your future for a chance at a 1 year run at the title?

webbbj
06-28-2010, 02:33 PM
im not sure the mariners have that much negotiation power since they know they get nothing if they just let him walk after the season. no i wouldnt give up that much id give up half of that though. and thats just b/c i think the NL is really weak. i dont see one great team in the NL.

Vottomatic
06-28-2010, 03:12 PM
I think the Reds will be outbid for Cliff Lee. Some team, going for it all, will give up the world to get him as a rental. And I don't want to do that. If we can get him for very little, obviously I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'd love to sign him long term, but I'm sure that's not how Reds management intends to build this team. They're not going to go out and sign a #1 starter for big money that takes up most of our payroll and takes away flexibility. They are going to groom the Volquez's and Chapman's and Leake's and hope they continue to emerge as cheap top of the rotation pitchers.......because that's all that we can afford and that's how they're going to go about things.

I wouldn't get too hopeful about acquiring Cliff Lee.

FlyerFanatic
06-28-2010, 03:38 PM
according to mlbtraderumors a "mystery" team is after lee and the cardinals might be it.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/mystery-team-after-cliff-lee.html

A mystery team is pursuing Cliff Lee, tweets Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. According to Price, the Cardinals "may be it." Price believes that top prospect Shelby Miller is a possible chip.

Kingspoint
06-28-2010, 03:41 PM
Let's just hope Haren beats Carpenter tonight.

Griffey012
06-28-2010, 05:05 PM
OK, Ill ask you what I have asked every other person with the same opinion as yours.....Would you wager your top prospects plus a MLB starter for a few month rental of Cliff Lee? Lee is not going to sign here next year as long as the Yankees and Red sox and other top market teams keep over paying for pitching....Cliff Lee is going to hit the free agent market running and not look back, he should get CC money. NOW, unless the Reds FO has inside info saying that Cliff Lee would sign here, then why would you give up this

Yonder
Travis Wood
Frazier
Stubbs or Homer or Cueto or Heisy

and I am putting the value low on that trade...it is very possible they want more than that....its also possible they take less....but right now it is going to take the moon to get Cliff Lee and he is more than likely only staying on till years end.

So the question is would you mortgage your future for a chance at a 1 year run at the title?

That is a massive package for a rental, if the M's get a package like they then they are getting away with highway robbery. Think back to 2008 when the Brewers went all in for CC Sabathia.

Brewers traded:
Matt Laporta
Michael Brantley
Zack Jackson
Rob Bryson

A comparable package for us to give up would be...
Alonso
Dave Sappelt or Sean Henry
Sam LeCure
and single-A pitcher or someone recently promoted like Fairel.

We then get an ACE for the rest of the season, make a big push into the playoffs and have the guns to go somewhere in the playoffs. That would do huge things for attendance late in the season and into next season, it would rejuvenate baseball in Cincinnati. It would allow us to continue to retain our young talent and bring in bigger pieces with an increased payroll.

The Brewers also got 2 first round picks of Sabathia when they lost him. So if the Yanks sign Lee, we will take 2 first round picks because we will offer arbitration. We also lose Harang's 12 million contract, we would have the resources to make a push to resign Lee, odds are he would end up in NY, but we at least would have a shot.

AintlifeGrande
06-28-2010, 06:41 PM
If we got Haren,which is a dream.Hello division champs.

bshall2105
06-28-2010, 10:05 PM
If we got Haren,which is a dream.Hello division champs.

Haren has not pitched that well this season and has an ERA in the mid 4's. I'm not convinced that he is much of an upgrade over what we have now. His style does suit GABP well though, and if Harang was the guy Haren was unseating I'd be happy with that. The Reds need a true ace of the staff, if they're going to make a trade for a starting pitcher, and IMO Haren is not the guy.

GIDP
06-28-2010, 10:06 PM
Haren has given up a ton of homers through his career. He doesnt give up a ton of walks though so he doesnt get burned on it.

The Voice of IH
06-28-2010, 10:14 PM
How do we keep STL from getting him? Wouldn't that be gettng him ourselves?

either that or cutting the Cardinals phone wires :rolleyes:

Griffey012
06-28-2010, 10:23 PM
Let's just hope Haren beats Carpenter tonight.

Looks like your wish may come true, not to mention he hit the go ahead home run in the 7th. Still some ballgame left though.

Seņor Rojo
06-28-2010, 10:28 PM
according to mlbtraderumors a "mystery" team is after lee and the cardinals might be it.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/mystery-team-after-cliff-lee.html

A mystery team is pursuing Cliff Lee, tweets Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. According to Price, the Cardinals "may be it." Price believes that top prospect Shelby Miller is a possible chip.

No way the Cardinals go for Lee. They're going to sell the farm to keep Pujols after next season.

Griffey012
06-28-2010, 10:33 PM
No way the Cardinals go for Lee. They're going to sell the farm to keep Pujols after next season.

I am confused, wouldn't selling the farm for Lee help keep Pujols, by showing they are committed to winning? Or are you inferring they are going to sell the farm in the off-season to acquire more talent to put with Pujols?

Vottomatic
06-28-2010, 10:36 PM
I am confused, wouldn't selling the farm for Lee help keep Pujols, by showing they are committed to winning? Or are you inferring they are going to sell the farm in the off-season to acquire more talent to put with Pujols?

They will have nearly $70M committed to Holliday, Carpenter, and Pujols once they re-up Pujols and Carpenter. No way they can afford Lee. Plus they have other guys headed to arbitration and whatnot.

All they can do is a rental of Lee for the stretch run, but they really don't have the minor leagues to get it done.

Seņor Rojo
06-28-2010, 10:40 PM
They will have nearly $70M committed to Holliday, Carpenter, and Pujols once they re-up Pujols and Carpenter. No way they can afford Lee. Plus they have other guys headed to arbitration and whatnot.

All they can do is a rental of Lee for the stretch run, but they really don't have the minor leagues to get it done.

This is what I meant. They're going to focus so much on the current players that they have who are getting older. The Cardinals really need to focus on getting players that are younger and not those who remain from the glory days of the 2006 season.

FlyerFanatic
06-29-2010, 12:47 AM
who's to say the cards just dont bump their payroll and keep everyone?

Kingspoint
06-29-2010, 03:16 AM
Looks like your wish may come true, not to mention he hit the go ahead home run in the 7th. Still some ballgame left though.

What a horrible team Arizona is. Their complete meltdown in the 9th was hilarious.

Vottomatic
06-29-2010, 09:51 AM
who's to say the cards just dont bump their payroll and keep everyone?

They can't afford to pay much more than $100M. Here are their payroll totals the last 10 years:

2010: $ 94,220,500
2009: $ 88,528,409
2008: $ 99,624,449
2007: $ 90,286,823
2006: $ 88,891,371
2005: $ 92,106,833
2004: $ 83,228,333
2003: $ 83,786,666
2002: $ 74,660,875
2001: $ 78,538,333
2000: $ 63,900,000

If they bump their payroll to $100M or more than that, they better be winning pennants. But typically what happens is they will be paying for 3 or 4 great players and not be able to afford anyone else. So the supporting cast will suck.

I will take a good roster all around (Reds) over a mediocre roster with a few great players (Cardinals) any day of the week.

Magdal
06-29-2010, 02:25 PM
Let's just hope Haren beats Carpenter tonight.He did...while he was in there.

Vottomatic
06-29-2010, 03:24 PM
Haren gave up 2 runs in the first and shut them down for the next 7 innings. He went back out in the 9th having thrown 108 pitches up until then. I'm sure if it were anywhere else, he gets relieved in the 9th. Pretty well pitched game by him.

redhat
06-29-2010, 03:39 PM
... they will be paying for 3 or 4 great players and not be able to afford anyone else.
Which is exactly why the Cards aren't going after Haren or Lee. Haren's salary is already astronomical, and the salary Lee would command on the open market is out of their reach.

abish1572
06-29-2010, 05:58 PM
according to mlbtraderumors a "mystery" team is after lee and the cardinals might be it.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/06/mystery-team-after-cliff-lee.html

A mystery team is pursuing Cliff Lee, tweets Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. According to Price, the Cardinals "may be it." Price believes that top prospect Shelby Miller is a possible chip.

Who says the reds ain't the "mystery" team? The reds are filled with talent in the minors... Plus The reds could give away Harang since Lee doesn't want to be in Seatle no more... He wants to be on a "winning" team... Ain't the reds winning?