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View Full Version : Jamie Moyer: HOFer, yea or nay



redsfandan
06-28-2010, 06:44 PM
There's a debate on another board about this with people either on one side or the other:

-He was never a dominant, or top, starting pitcher so he doesn't belong in the HOF.

-He should be elected if he can stick around to make it to 300 wins.

So, I thought I'd put it up to RedsZone. Does Jamie Moyer belong in the HOF?

AND, do you think the official voters will elect him if he reaches 300 wins?



I don't think he belongs in the HOF and I hope the voters feel the same way. He's been a good pitcher in a looooooooong career but that's the only thing on his side in the argument for the HOF.


edit: I didn't see an option for adding a 2nd poll question. If that's possible maybe a mod could add "Do you think the official voters will elect him if he reaches 300 wins?" as a 2nd poll question.

TheNext44
06-28-2010, 06:51 PM
Moyer's given up more homer than anyone in MLB history. That's Hall worthy right there.

Boss-Hog
06-28-2010, 06:52 PM
You can't have multiple poll questions in a single thread.

_Sir_Charles_
06-28-2010, 06:56 PM
Longevity does not equal HOF. If Blyleven's not in, no way should Moyer be in. Blyleven was a more dominant pitcher during his era than Moyer's been. Excellent career and a well above average pitcher...just not HOF worthy IMO (Blyleven is though IMO).

Redsfan320
06-28-2010, 06:57 PM
^^^^

IMO, they both should be in.

320

mth123
06-28-2010, 07:02 PM
No way.

westofyou
06-28-2010, 07:23 PM
Not in a million years

mth123
06-28-2010, 07:51 PM
Moyer is 47 and has 267 wins counting 9 this year. 300 is a pipe dream, but I guess if he could get there it might be different. Of course if my old pick-up truck was a brand new BMW ...

Joseph
06-28-2010, 08:07 PM
No, if there are no 'magic' HoF numbers he hasn't warranted being included in the Hall.

15fan
06-28-2010, 08:23 PM
Jamie Moyer is a lot more Charlie Hough/Dennis Martinez/Joe Niekro than he is a HOF pitcher.

Those guys all had very long, slightly better than average careers. That's certainly no knock on any of them.

But it's not worthy of a bust in Cooperstown, either.

savafan
06-28-2010, 08:25 PM
IF he reaches 300 wins, I say yes, otherwise, no.

westofyou
06-28-2010, 08:35 PM
Jamie Moyer is a lot more Charlie Hough/Dennis Martinez/Joe Niekro than he is a HOF pitcher.

Those guys all had very long, slightly better than average careers. That's certainly no knock on any of them.

But it's not worthy of a bust in Cooperstown, either.

Yep, he's below Hoyt Wilhelm in talent and way below in impact.

RedEye
06-28-2010, 08:54 PM
If Jamie Moyer reaches 300 W largely in his 40's, I think the voters have to give him serious consideration. I'm not sure whether his other stats back his case very well though. Then again, there are probably other HOF pitchers worse than him (not that this really recommends his case either).

Stephenk29
06-28-2010, 08:55 PM
Just because your around forever doesn't mean you get in the hall. Good pitcher, nice career, Hall of Famers need to be the elite though.

westofyou
06-28-2010, 09:06 PM
Then again, there are probably other HOF pitchers worse than him (not that this really recommends his case either).

Probably not, I'd say the worst HOF pitcher is Rube Marquad, whose era vs the league is about par with Moyers.

Not many HOF players toil for 7 different franchises.

TheNext44
06-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Just because your around forever doesn't mean you get in the hall. Good pitcher, nice career, Hall of Famers need to be the elite though.

Pitching effectively until you're almost 50, and not throwing a knuckleball, is technically "elite."

TheNext44
06-28-2010, 09:09 PM
I voted "yes' but more as a joke.

He does deserve to be in the Hall of Pretty Interesting, though.

Stephenk29
06-28-2010, 09:18 PM
Pitching effectively until you're almost 50, and not throwing a knuckleball, is technically "elite."

I guess I define elite as someone who is a top of the rotation type guy for numerous years. Has Moyer ever been a top 5 pitcher in the majors at any point? It's opinion of course but those would be my initial standards.

TheNext44
06-28-2010, 10:01 PM
I guess I define elite as someone who is a top of the rotation type guy for numerous years. Has Moyer ever been a top 5 pitcher in the majors at any point? It's opinion of course but those would be my initial standards.

I was just being silly. He might go down as the greatest, average pitcher of all time, however.

westofyou
06-28-2010, 10:03 PM
I was just being silly. He might go down as the greatest, average pitcher of all time, however.

He's a modern day Bobo Newsom (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/newsobo01.shtml)

15fan
06-28-2010, 10:35 PM
Moyer made the 2003 AL All-Star team and pitched 1 inning in the game.

That's it.

1 All-Star team. 1 inning pitched.

Derrick Turnbow, Dan Kolb, Takashi Saito, Jose Lima and Justin Thompson are just a few recent guys who can make that exact same claim.

camisadelgolf
06-28-2010, 10:42 PM
http://espn.go.com/photo/2007/0501/moyer_HOF.jpg

fearofpopvol1
06-28-2010, 10:48 PM
If he can somehow muster up 300 wins, I think it would be fair to let him in since that seems to be the golden number.

2 more really good seasons after this one and he could hit that number. That would be incredible, but I think it's unlikely that happens.

RED VAN HOT
06-28-2010, 10:51 PM
If he gets to 300, he will have earned 136 wins after turning 40. He makes my HOF for that alone.

Big Klu
06-28-2010, 11:41 PM
Not many HOF players toil for 7 different franchises.

How about eight?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/GaylordPerryFlickr.jpg/300px-GaylordPerryFlickr.jpg

BuckeyeRedleg
06-28-2010, 11:54 PM
1. Bert "be home" Blyleven needs to get in (much too deserving).

2. Moyer needs to keep going past 50.

or

3. Get 300 wins.

Then, he gets my vote (if I had one).

cumberlandreds
06-29-2010, 08:11 AM
If he gets to 300 I would consider it just for the amazing durablity he has shown. To get to 300 he would be nearly 50 and that would be amazing in itself. But otherwise I wouldn't vote him in. He was a medicore to just above that most of his career.
I do have a soft spot for him since he's the last MLB player that is actually older than me. He's old by about 6 months than me,IIRC.

Roy Tucker
06-29-2010, 08:22 AM
Good SI article on Moyer from last year...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1154210/index.htm

Interesting and long career, but HoF, no way. Had a nice run in Seattle but never feared.

Redsfan320
06-29-2010, 08:33 AM
The HoF plaque- awesome. :thumbup:

320

_Sir_Charles_
06-29-2010, 08:35 AM
The HoF plaque- awesome. :thumbup:

320

Yep. The Tokyo & Dubai franchises cracked me up.

George Anderson
06-29-2010, 09:37 AM
If he gets to 300 Wins then I don't see how you can't put him in. It isn't likely he gets to 300 wins but who the hell thought he would be pitching this well at age 47?? Stranger things have happened.

Ghosts of 1990
06-29-2010, 09:40 AM
I voted yes if he gets to 300 wins. I feel the same way about anyone who hits 500 home runs (like say, Adam Dunn). But he's just at 267 wins and he's 47 years old. He is no lock to get those 300 wins.

If he can crawl there, I'd vote yes for him to get in. That's incredible longevity IMO.

macro
06-29-2010, 10:19 AM
It's called the Hall of "Fame" and not the "Hall of the Best Career Statistics". Yes, I know "best career statistics" has always been the easiest and most commonly-agreed-upon criteria, but a player can be "famous" or have "fame" in other ways.

I've never been to the Hall and am not that familiar with it. Does the wing that holds the players who have been inducted, have a sign or notation that these are the best players in the history of the game? Or are they supposed to be just "famous" for one reason or another?

I think that certain accomplishments and/or events are recognized somewhere. (Again, I don't know how the place is organized.) Would something like what Moyer is doing fit in that part or wing?

Regardless of stats, Moyer appears to be carving his niche in baseball history, so that makes him famous (or having "fame"). Does he not deserve a place in a hall bearing that name?

camisadelgolf
06-29-2010, 11:12 AM
Speaking of the plaque, notice that he will finish his career for the Cubs. I just visited my uncle in Chicago, and while we were watching the Cubs game, he said, "Chicago: the only place where a guy can retire and play baseball at the same time."

Danny Serafini
06-29-2010, 11:15 AM
It's called the Hall of "Fame" and not the "Hall of the Best Career Statistics". Yes, I know "best career statistics" has always been the easiest and most commonly-agreed-upon criteria, but a player can be "famous" or have "fame" in other ways.

I've never been to the Hall and am not that familiar with it. Does the wing that holds the players who have been inducted, have a sign or notation that these are the best players in the history of the game? Or are they supposed to be just "famous" for one reason or another?

I think that certain accomplishments and/or events are recognized somewhere. (Again, I don't know how the place is organized.) Would something like what Moyer is doing fit in that part or wing?

Regardless of stats, Moyer appears to be carving his niche in baseball history, so that makes him famous (or having "fame"). Does he not deserve a place in a hall bearing that name?

From the Hall's website, about election procedures:


5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

How famous a player is has no bearing. It's not fame that gets you into the hall, the hall bestows fame upon you by inducting you.

savafan
06-29-2010, 11:39 AM
Well, speaking for his character and integrity:

http://www.moyerfoundation.org/

Rojo
06-29-2010, 02:43 PM
Like a lot of you I'd make him get to 300, but think of it this way -- would you rather the HOF filled with compelling players like Moyer or PED-fueled knuckleheads like Canseco or Palmeiro?

The next few years are going to be difficult for HOF voters. Defaulting to the old benchmarks may not work.

savafan
11-07-2010, 11:40 AM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/11/moyer-f.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Moyer injured his pitching elbow in the Dominican, and may be done. If so, tough way to go out.

Joseph
11-07-2010, 11:43 AM
Why is he even there?

savafan
11-07-2010, 11:46 AM
Why is he even there?

According to the link, he was trying to showcase his health for a 2011 contract.

RedsManRick
11-07-2010, 11:48 AM
Longevity is not itself a HOF worthy characteristic, especially when you're talking about the primary statistic used to justify your case being one that is significantly influenced by your teammates.

If Blyleven and his career 3.31 ERA and 3701 strikeouts over 4,970 IP can't get in, Moyer (4,020 IP, 4.24 ERA, 2405) barely belongs in the conversation. If Moyer somehow manages to hang on for another 3 or 4 years, I'm guessing his rate stats will continue to suffer.

FWIW, here are the HOF monitor "stats" from B-R. Rank is in parenthesis.

Black Ink Pitching - 3 (548), Average HOFer ≈ 40 (led a league in a key stat)
Gray Ink Pitching - 106 (197), Average HOFer ≈ 185 (top 10 in the league in a key stat)
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 56 (223), Likely HOFer ≈ 100 (predictive formula to guess the likelihood of making it)
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 40 (71), Average HOFer ≈ 50 (an attempt at an objective measure of worthiness)

Ron Madden
11-07-2010, 01:10 PM
IMO, they both should be in.

320


I believe Blyleven belongs in the HOF. I don't think Moyer does.

westofyou
11-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Jack Quinn first

macro
11-07-2010, 04:43 PM
According to the link, he was trying to showcase his health for a 2011 contract.

This kinda reminds me of this quote:


It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Maybe Moyer would've been better off to let any doubts about his health remain instead of now providing proof that he's not.

steig
11-07-2010, 05:15 PM
I voted no and I'm surprised this is even a question. Moyer has had a very good career but he has never been a dominating or top of the rotation starter. Longevity should be respected but should not get you into the HOF.

jojo
11-07-2010, 07:44 PM
Moyer has mostly been a league average starting pitcher for a long time. That's a great accomplishment but not really a HOF great accomplishment IMHO. Now if there was a HOF for impact on their community, the Moyers would be shoe ins...

IslandRed
11-07-2010, 10:27 PM
Not everything in the HOF itself is about the enshrined players, so it would be cool if they had something that told visitors about his remarkable longevity -- Kid: "Wow, he was that old and still pitching in the majors? He was almost as old as you are, granddad" -- but does he deserve the big plaque? No, and it's not even close enough to be a serious discussion, in my opinion.

cincinnati chili
11-08-2010, 03:09 AM
Wow, I didn't realize members of Moyer's family had joined this board. Fess up. Which one of you is Digger Phelps in real life?

GAC
11-08-2010, 04:52 AM
We can't be this desperate can we? LOL

edabbs44
11-08-2010, 11:05 PM
Gonna have to say nay on this one.

REDREAD
11-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Well, didn't Phil Neikro make it based on 300 wins, and he was never dominating.

Don Sutton and a few other guys made it by just playing forever.

The HOF is already diluted, might as well let Moyer in too.

westofyou
11-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Don Sutton and a few other guys made it by just playing forever.

The HOF is already diluted, might as well let Moyer in too.

If it's diluted why dilute it more?

Moyer is not a HOF talent, he never was a top pitcher in any season he pitched.

What makes him HOF worthy?

kaldaniels
11-09-2010, 04:31 PM
If it's diluted why dilute it more?

Moyer is not a HOF talent, he never was a top pitcher in any season he pitched.

What makes him HOF worthy?

Yep. Enough of this lowest common denominator criteria.

Topcat
11-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Not in a million years



Totally agree from the minute I read the thread.:thumbup:

AtomicDumpling
11-11-2010, 01:46 AM
I don't care if Moyer plays until he is 75 and gets 500 wins, he does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Just the mere act of pitching while old does not make a guy a good player, much less a great one.

REDREAD
11-11-2010, 09:17 AM
If it's diluted why dilute it more?

Moyer is not a HOF talent, he never was a top pitcher in any season he pitched.

What makes him HOF worthy?

Well, 300 wins is the established benchmark. It's the "guaranteed in".
I guess I don't see the crime in letting someone like Moyer in. To get 300 wins, he's probably going to have to pitch until 49 or 50.. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment. Since the precedent is that the HOF rewards longetivity, why not?

The HOF wants 2-3 people elected every year to draw in the tourists.
It's good business.

Sure in 40 years, people will be wondering how Sutton and Niekro got in, but they will just shrug as they walk past them. They will not be appalled.

Roy Tucker
11-11-2010, 12:20 PM
I don't care if Moyer plays until he is 75 and gets 500 wins, he does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Just the mere act of pitching while old does not make a guy a good player, much less a great one.

If he gets to 500 wins at the age of 75, I may make an exception. :)

George Anderson
11-11-2010, 12:29 PM
If he gets to 500 wins at the age of 75, I may make an exception. :)

Anyone who gets to 500 wins should be unanimous.

westofyou
11-11-2010, 12:30 PM
The HOF wants 2-3 people elected every year to draw in the tourists.
It's good business.


And voting in talent that isn't HOF quality will help the hall lose its luster and it will become the shrine to the "good" not the "great" and that's bad business, not good.