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Scrap Irony
06-30-2010, 06:45 PM
Who's better?

OnBaseMachine
06-30-2010, 06:46 PM
Votto, and this is coming from the biggest Adam Dunn fan on the planet. Dunn has more HR power but Votto is a better all around player, IMO. It's not a huge gap but Votto is better.

RBA
06-30-2010, 06:47 PM
Votto.

I don't think there is much debate here.

RedsManRick
06-30-2010, 06:48 PM
Career:
Votto: .310/.394/.542
Dunn: .251/.382/.521

Add defense and its a no-brainer. I doubt you'll get any disagreement.

CTA513
06-30-2010, 06:49 PM
Votto because he is a better hitter and defender.

pedro
06-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Votto runs better too.

Plus he's a dedicated follower of fashion.

membengal
06-30-2010, 06:53 PM
Votto. Can there be any debate?

And I am still a huge Dunn fan.

Scrap Irony
06-30-2010, 06:57 PM
Is Votto the best Red of the past decade? 15 years? Since Larkin?

Before Larkin?

Strikes Out Looking
06-30-2010, 06:58 PM
Votto, not even close.

The Operator
06-30-2010, 06:58 PM
It's Votto, not sure there's much question to it. He's the complete package of power, average, OPS, defense and team leadership. He's a franchise player.

I still think Dunn was a highly valuable and highly underrated member of The Reds squad when he was here, though. People talked about him "only" having 100 RBI each season as if those guys grow on trees. Problem was, many people were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with Adam. He was never just loved for what he was, he was hated for what he wasn't.

westofyou
06-30-2010, 07:11 PM
Life is full of hard questions

Coke or Pepsi?

Beatles or Stones?

Chicken or Beef?

Zsa Zsa or Eva?

Jesus or Buddah?

Kick in the nads or a poke in the eye?

guttle11
06-30-2010, 07:15 PM
Kick in the nads or a poke in the eye?

That's the easiest question of them all.

Oh, and Votto. He's a notch above every Red of the last several years. Dunn is probably at the top of the next tier, just above Harang.

Benihana
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
Votto is easily the best Red in the last 15 years, at least. He and Dunn aren't even close in comparison.

Scrap Irony
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
Life is full of hard questions

Coke or Pepsi?

Beatles or Stones?

Chicken or Beef?

Zsa Zsa or Eva?

Jesus or Buddah?

Kick in the nads or a poke in the eye?

Pepsi
Beatles
Chicken
Eva
Jesus
Poke in the eye

These are easy. ;)

Razor Shines
06-30-2010, 09:22 PM
Who's better?

Didn't get what you thought you would, did you?

I love Adam Dunn, but it's Joey.

Adam is one of the top 10-15 offensive players in the NL, but Joey is in the top 3. Plus Joey is better on defense.

reds44
06-30-2010, 09:22 PM
Votto by 4 miles.

Raisor
06-30-2010, 09:27 PM
Votto, and I still love Dunn with the power of a thousand suns.

ummm

yeah

Degenerate39
06-30-2010, 09:54 PM
Dunn is my all time favorite Red but I would take Votto over him every day

Nasty_Boy
06-30-2010, 10:15 PM
Adam Dunn is still my favorite player and it's real close between him and Larkin as my all time favorite Red... Having said that, Votto is a much more complete player and he's the better player. I just wonder why we are comparing the two?

But can't I still wish Dunn was playing LF?

Ghosts of 1990
06-30-2010, 10:27 PM
Votto. I love Adam Dunn, but right now there's few better then Votto.

cincy09
06-30-2010, 10:48 PM
It's not even close. Votto is better in every way outside of raw power.
Dunn is good...Votto is pushing superstar status.

RedEye
06-30-2010, 11:58 PM
Votto is a better all-around player, yes. He's an all-around stud.

That said, Dunn has some serious longevity in the game that make them difficult players to compare right now. I sure hope Votto proves to be as durable and consistent as Dunn has over the past decade. If he does, then there will truly be no comparison between them.

westofyou
07-01-2010, 12:34 AM
At the end of the season Votto is projected to have 1800 career PA's, and around a .945 career OPS he'll be 27 years old (which means what we are seeing is likely his peak years) by the time he reached 27 Dunn had 4098 PA's and a .900 OPS. Since then he's had 1600 PA's (250 more than Votto) and has a .913 OPS.

Dunn is an outlier size wise, that lessens his game across the board, baseball is build better for smaller frames, that said Dunn ain't no slouch with the stick and has produced since he got in the league at age 21.

jojo
07-01-2010, 12:36 AM
But Votto is Canadian....

KronoRed
07-01-2010, 12:44 AM
But Votto is Canadian....

Indeed, and we all know what Canada is responsible for...
http://concertsandsports.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jb.jpg

CTA513
07-01-2010, 12:45 AM
But Votto is Canadian....

Just imagine if he was a Canadian Donkey.

:cool:

westofyou
07-01-2010, 12:54 AM
Indeed, and we all know what Canada is responsible for...
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/Neil%2BYoung%2BNeilYoung.jpg

HeatherC1212
07-01-2010, 01:29 AM
Well, I could post all the stats here and describe in full out detail why Joey is my preference (although I do like Dunn) but really, if you look at the big picture, it's just a matter of nicknames. "Vottomatic" is SOOOOOO much cooler than "Big Donkey". :p:

CaiGuy
07-01-2010, 01:55 AM
BOTH please

That would be a lot of not getting out...

Big Klu
07-01-2010, 02:24 AM
Indeed, and we all know what Canada is responsible for...
http://makeupchick.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/bobanddoug1.jpg

Slyder
07-01-2010, 02:58 AM
Votto and for me its not close. Dunn is great for what he is, he's just not a complete enough player to carry a team. Dunn just seems to be better suited to be Scottie Pippen and letting someone else play the role of Jordan. Votto just looks like someone you can build around and be "the man".

Ron Madden
07-01-2010, 05:05 AM
I like'em both. I love Joey Votto, I've always loved Adam Dunn and still root for him.

Even if we were to wait until they both retired and compared their stats there would be those who value certain stats over others and that's what makes it interesting.

mth123
07-01-2010, 06:08 AM
Votto. Wish we had both.

top6
07-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Votto is pretty clearly playing better right now than Dunn could - especially when you factor in defense - but keep in mind Dunn has put up pretty great numbers every year for 10 years (usually playing almost every game). Votto has only played more than 131 games once, and has never played more than 151. I think you could argue that the guy who has actually produced consistently during almost a decade in MLB is the better player.

redsfandan
07-01-2010, 08:48 AM
Could this thread have been inspired by this post:

Re: Will Joey Votto hit 40 HRs this year?

Sounds like Votto is filling Dunn's shoes as Cub-Killer. Dunn raked at Wrigley.
and now we have this:

Votto is easily the best Red in the last 15 years, at least. He and Dunn aren't even close in comparison.
In the last 15 years? Hmmm...

Votto or Dunn? (or Larkin?)

I'm not sure who I'd pick. Votto or Larkin. I just know it wouldn't be Dunn. :)

Reds1
07-01-2010, 09:13 AM
Life is full of hard questions

Coke or Pepsi? Pepsi

Beatles or Stones? Beatles

Chicken or Beef? Beef

Zsa Zsa or Eva? Eva

Jesus or Buddah? Jesus

Kick in the nads or a poke in the eye? neither

and hands down VOTTO

Roy Tucker
07-01-2010, 09:46 AM
Life is full of hard questions

Coke or Pepsi?

Beatles or Stones?

Chicken or Beef?

Zsa Zsa or Eva?

Jesus or Buddah?

Kick in the nads or a poke in the eye?

Betty or Wilma?

Votto or Hatteberg?

jojo
07-01-2010, 10:02 AM
Betty or Wilma?

Votto or Hatteberg?

Ginger or Mary Anne?

But really the comparison should be Votto or Hatteberg/Aurilia...

_Sir_Charles_
07-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Who's better?

Seriously? There's even a scrap of doubt here? I'll take Joey every day of the week and twice on Thursdays.

And in terms of raw power...I'm not so sure Dunn's got the edge on that one. Joey's got some AMAZING pop when he gets one.

redsfandan
07-01-2010, 10:41 AM
Ginger or Mary Anne? ...

Mary Anne :)

Jpup
07-01-2010, 11:58 AM
Votto is the better player at this point, but I'm not sure about when their careers end. Dunn has been more dependable than Votto and has done it for a much longer time.

Votto is a step above where Dunn is and I hope he can play for several more years at his current level. Votto or Larkin, well I think, Larkin would and should win that debate.

medford
07-01-2010, 12:12 PM
Mary Anne :)

+1. I remember catching an episode of gilligan's island about a year ago for the first time since I was a kid and it was on after school TV (Can you imagine selling a black and white TV show to a kid today, and I'm only 33, but there is no way you could convince my 12 year old nephew that Gilligan's Island was worth watching). Anyhoo, I obviously paid more attention when I caught it on TV a year ago,then when I was 10, but it really jumped out at me how there was ever a debate. Mary Anne has Ginger beat by a mile in looks, plus she had the girl next door feel that made you think she wouldn't be a pain in the butt to put up with.

Plus Plus
07-01-2010, 01:47 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-votto-the-most-underrated-player-in-baseball/


Coming into today, if you had to guess what National League first baseman was leading the league in wOBA, whom would you pick? Albert Pujols? Adrian Gonzalez? Prince Fielder? It’s actually Reds first baseman Joey Votto, who, with a .425 wOBA, is also leading the entire NL and is fourth in all of baseball.

RedsManRick
07-01-2010, 01:50 PM
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/joey-votto-the-most-underrated-player-in-baseball/

Dunn is at 2.1 WAR, tied with Aubrey Huff for a distant 4th behind Votto (3.4), Gonzalez (3.2) and Pujols (3.0).

Nasty_Boy
07-01-2010, 01:58 PM
Votto's prime years might end up being better but like others have said, Votto may not end up with a better career than Dunn. And right now, Dunn is the best homegrown player the Reds have had the last 15 years... Votto may end up being better, but Dunn did it for a number of seasons in a row. But at this point, Votto is the better player.
And in no way does Votto have the raw HR power that AD has, it's above average power but not many hit the ball as fas as Dunner.

RedsManRick
07-01-2010, 02:00 PM
Votto's prime years might end up being better but like others have said, Votto may not end up with a better career than Dunn. And right now, Dunn is the best homegrown player the Reds have had the last 15 years... Votto may end up being better, but Dunn did it for a number of seasons in a row. But at this point, Votto is the better player.
And in no way does Votto have the raw HR power that AD has, it's above average power but not many hit the ball as fas as Dunner.

And yet Votto has out-slugged Dunn in their respective careers. You're right he doesn't have the raw power, but his ability to consistently drive the ball with authority is impressive.

I'd like to see Dunn do something with that pitch Votto homered on yesterday.

Nasty_Boy
07-01-2010, 06:56 PM
There is no doubt that Votto is a better overall hitter, and I pray that he gives us the same amount of productive years that Dunn gave the Reds. Votto's power to the left center gap with an inside out swing is amazing, and the ball absolutely jumps off his bat to the opposite field. He stays inside the ball so well and let's it get so deep that his plate coverage has to be a nightmare for pitchers. But I don't think Votto can hit the ball as far as Dunn, who I would LOVE to see in the HR derby this season. But my point with Dunn is very similar to what WOY wrote... He is the better player right now and is off to an amazing start in his career but he still hasn't played a full season. Dunn doesn't have to ability to put up the overall numbers that Joey does, but he's still a monster at the plate.

And wasn't that pitch Votto hit out very similar to the pitch Dunn hit out off of Wickman? :)

REDblooded
07-01-2010, 09:36 PM
I think a better comparison would be Dunn or Jay Bruce... Votto is clearly heads and shoulders above Dunn when comparing what they bring to the table as far as an entire package goes... factor in the money... yuck. this one isn't close...

That being said, I'd still take Bruce in an instant...

Big Klu
07-01-2010, 10:31 PM
+1. I remember catching an episode of gilligan's island about a year ago for the first time since I was a kid and it was on after school TV (Can you imagine selling a black and white TV show to a kid today, and I'm only 33, but there is no way you could convince my 12 year old nephew that Gilligan's Island was worth watching). Anyhoo, I obviously paid more attention when I caught it on TV a year ago,then when I was 10, but it really jumped out at me how there was ever a debate. Mary Anne has Ginger beat by a mile in looks, plus she had the girl next door feel that made you think she wouldn't be a pain in the butt to put up with.

FYI, Dawn Wells was Miss Nevada, 1959.

http://community.cbs47.tv/blogs/files/5005/4212499/mary%20ann%201.jpg

TRF
07-01-2010, 10:38 PM
Votto is easily the best Red in the last 15 years, at least. He and Dunn aren't even close in comparison.

Barry Larkin in '95-'96 says hello.

And he takes 45 minutes to do it.

Blitz Dorsey
07-01-2010, 10:41 PM
I'm late to this discussion but is this a serious debate? It's like asking "fat ugly girl" or "hot sexy girl."

TRF
07-01-2010, 11:45 PM
I'm late to this discussion but is this a serious debate? It's like asking "fat ugly girl" or "hot sexy girl."

yes, Dunn's career .904 OPS is ugly fat girl.

really? that's your comparison? :rolleyes:

ya know the better question is Dunn or Gomes.

Will M
07-01-2010, 11:52 PM
Dunn is pretty much a 'two trick pony' - walks & home runs. there is nothing wrong with a line of 250/380/520. nothing at all. the issue with Dunn is that he is basically a DH. a DH with an OPS of 900 is still pretty darn good but its not as good as a guy who can play an adequate 1B or LF & put up the same numbers.

i agree with the Dunn vs Bruce arguement being a better one:
in the NL you can get a DH who can OPS 900 but you have to play him at 1B or LF. or you can get a right fielder who can OPS 825 & be a plus glove. i personally would take the 2nd option.

oneupper
07-01-2010, 11:59 PM
Votto $525K.
Dunn $12M.

Do we consider that part too?

Wheelhouse
07-02-2010, 12:09 AM
I think Encarnacion is better than both of them. Why did we trade him for a 35-year old third baseman with a huge contract? Fire Walt Jocketty ;)

Slyder
07-02-2010, 12:30 AM
Votto $525K.
Dunn $12M.

Do we consider that part too?

Why dont you compare cost and stats at that point in Dunn's career :rolleyes:. Dunn's been around a while now of course he's going to be more expensive thats basic baseball economics. Votto will get his he just not reached arby yet since he didnt reach the majors until he hit 24.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 12:38 AM
yes, Dunn's career .904 OPS is ugly fat girl.

really? that's your comparison? :rolleyes:

ya know the better question is Dunn or Gomes.

You're not factoring $$ into the equation. Dunn at less than a mil? Sure, give me him all day. Dunn at $10 mil? No thanks. And compared to Joey Votto? Let me laugh myself out of the room.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 12:42 AM
I mean, Gomes makes 1/10th of what Dunn makes. Yet, he produces almost the same. Hmmm. This is why we're all posting on a message board and Walt Jocketty is running a baseball team.

CTA513
07-02-2010, 12:45 AM
I mean, Gomes makes 1/10th of what Dunn makes. Yet, he produces almost the same. Hmmm. This is why we're all posting on a message board and Walt Jocketty is running a baseball team.

Gomes could be making as much as Dunn if he had about 7+ years of doing what hes doing this season.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 12:45 AM
Gomes could be making as much as Dunn if he had about 7+ years of doing what hes doing this season.

I agree.

Slyder
07-02-2010, 12:48 AM
I mean, Gomes makes 1/10th of what Dunn makes. Yet, he produces almost the same. Hmmm. This is why we're all posting on a message board and Walt Jocketty is running a baseball team.

Yes .814 and .914 ops are "produces almost the same". Gomes is no where near Dunn's category. About the only thing thats similar in the two is RBIs (Gomes with 51 and Dunn with 47). I would take Dunn even at the cost difference everyday of the week and twice on Sundays over Gomes.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 12:50 AM
Yes .814 and .914 ops are "produces almost the same". Gomes is no where near Dunn's category. About the only thing thats similar in the two is RBIs (Gomes with 51 and Dunn with 47). I would take Dunn even at the cost difference everyday of the week and twice on Sundays over Gomes.

Riiiiiight, Dunn is producing 10x more than Gomes. HAHA! I love the large donkey, but c'mon now. Gomes isn't that much worse than him and he comes at 1/10th of the cost. I'll take Gomes over Dunn "dollar for dollar" any day. If they were making the same $$ (or even close) give me Dunn. But that's not reality.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 12:55 AM
Anyway, so we can get back on topic, here is the Cliff's Notes version:

* Adam Dunn is a better overall player than Jonny Gomes. (No one would argue against that.)

* Based on what they are making this season, Jonny Gomes is a MUCH better value than Adam Dunn. (Anyone who wants to argue this, I'll be here all week.)

Slyder
07-02-2010, 01:08 AM
Riiiiiight, Dunn is producing 10x more than Gomes. HAHA! I love the large donkey, but c'mon now. Gomes isn't that much worse than him and he comes at 1/10th of the cost. I'll take Gomes over Dunn "dollar for dollar" any day. If they were making the same $$ (or even close) give me Dunn. But that's not reality.

Gomes would be making that kind of change if he had a career portfolio of what he's doing this year. The reason a team felt he was worth what he's getting is because you can pretty much set your watch by it that Dunn is going to put up 35-40 HRs, play in 150 games, drive in 100. Meanwhile Gomes has never hit more than 21, never had 500 abs in a season, and played in 120 games in a season. Sports is as much about what youve accomplished up to that point as it is what youre going to accomplish when it comes to contracts. Dunn you expect a huge production from, Gomes you don't.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 01:13 AM
Gomes would be making that kind of change if he had a career portfolio of what he's doing this year. The reason a team felt he was worth what he's getting is because you can pretty much set your watch by it that Dunn is going to put up 35-40 HRs, play in 150 games, drive in 100. Meanwhile Gomes has never hit more than 21, never had 500 abs in a season, and played in 120 games in a season. Sports is as much about what youve accomplished up to that point as it is what youre going to accomplish when it comes to contracts. Dunn you expect a huge production from, Gomes you don't.

Like I said earlier to someone else, I don't disagree with you at all. I thought the topic (after Votto v Dunn was shot down immediately) was Gomes v Dunn "dollar for dollar." If you are talking about who I would rather have with money no obstacle, give me Dunn any day. But that's not reality. Gomes is the better "dollar-for-dollar" player this season and it's not even close.

Slyder
07-02-2010, 01:19 AM
What about another suggestion of Dunn vs Bruce? Leaving the money question off the table for the same fact as Votto then.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 01:25 AM
What about another suggestion of Dunn vs Bruce? Leaving the money question off the table for the same fact as Votto then.

Is age a factor? If it is, that pushes Bruce way to the top of my list. Dunn is at his peak. Bruce hasn't gotten there yet. Won't for 3-4 more years. So, give me Bruce.

Slyder
07-02-2010, 01:59 AM
Is age a factor? If it is, that pushes Bruce way to the top of my list. Dunn is at his peak. Bruce hasn't gotten there yet. Won't for 3-4 more years. So, give me Bruce.

Lets expand for the sake of my insomnia shall we? :D

1 At the same point in their careers.
2 Money not an object
3 At current point in careers

nate
07-02-2010, 09:47 AM
yes, Dunn's career .904 OPS is ugly fat girl.

really? that's your comparison? :rolleyes:

ya know the better question is Dunn or Gomes.

Interesting!

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_1845___ograph_%20_7_2_2010.png

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_1845_OF_aseason_full_8_20100701.png

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_1845_OF_cseason_full_8_20100701.png

It seems about as cut and dry as Dunn vs. Votto to me.

Jpup
07-02-2010, 12:19 PM
I still kinda think that Jay Bruce might be the best of the 3. I may be the only one, but Jay is still a pup and he's starting to get it figured out.

_Sir_Charles_
07-02-2010, 12:46 PM
I still kinda think that Jay Bruce might be the best of the 3. I may be the only one, but Jay is still a pup and he's starting to get it figured out.

I agree. When he starts spraying the ball more he's a beast at the dish.

REDblooded
07-02-2010, 01:01 PM
I still kinda think that Jay Bruce might be the best of the 3. I may be the only one, but Jay is still a pup and he's starting to get it figured out.

I wouldn't disagree... especially when you factor in the fact that Bruce is a pretty phenomenal defender at a slightly more premium position...

Screwball
07-02-2010, 01:11 PM
I still kinda think that Jay Bruce might be the best of the 3. I may be the only one, but Jay is still a pup and he's starting to get it figured out.

Would you call him a Jay pup, Jpup?

jojo
07-02-2010, 07:28 PM
Anyway, so we can get back on topic, here is the Cliff's Notes version:

* Adam Dunn is a better overall player than Jonny Gomes. (No one would argue against that.)

* Based on what they are making this season, Jonny Gomes is a MUCH better value than Adam Dunn. (Anyone who wants to argue this, I'll be here all week.)

Based upon what each player is making this season, Dunn is the better value and it isn't even close. Here's why-Dunn is a significantly better player.

Lets look at their values while ignoring defense.

Dunn has a wOBA=.390 which translates into a 31 runs above average over 600 PAs. He gets another 20 runs for the difference between average and replacement while loses 10 runs because he does that while playing firstbase. That makes him worth 41 run over that span independent of defense.

Gomes has a wOBA=.345. Assuming it doesn't continue to fall, that makes his bat worth 7.8 runs above average over 600 PAs. He gets 20 runs for the difference between average and replacement and loses 7.5 runs for playing left field. That makes Gomes worth 20 runs over 600 PAs.

Independent of defense, Dunn is worth 2 wins more than Gomes in that scenario. Now looking at UZR and Dewans to thumb in the air their defensive value, Dunn looks like he might be something like a -5 run defender at first. Gomes is looking like he might be something like a -15 run defender over that playing time.

The nice thing is that this offensive analysis is using wOBA values that mirror each player's career numbers suggesting it's capturing their true talent.

So given that narrative, Dunn is 3 wins more valuable than Gomes.

The Reds would basically be paying Gomes something like $2M/win ($1M contract given his 800K base and $200K option buyout), while the Nats would be paying Dunn something like $3.33M/win ($12M base salary for 3.6 wins).

It might look like the Reds are getting a better value because they are paying Gomes less per win but the Nats are getting much more bang for their buck and frankly those 3 wins the Nats are getting would be invaluable to the Reds if they stay in the race.

Without a doubt, the Reds would be getting a much better value by paying Dunn rather than Gomes.

RBA
07-02-2010, 07:43 PM
Indeed, and we all know what Canada is responsible for...


And.... O' Canada!

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/pamela-anderson-20070619-272095.jpg


Well, they may not be responsible for left half of the picture. ;) That would be Dow Corning.

jojo
07-02-2010, 07:49 PM
And.... O' Canada!

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/pamela-anderson-20070619-272095.jpg


Well, they may not be responsible for left half of the picture. ;) That would be Dow Corning.

Only part of her is Canadian. The rest was made in China and assembled in the U.S.

Blitz Dorsey
07-02-2010, 07:56 PM
Based upon what each player is making this season, Dunn is the better value and it isn't even close. Here's why-Dunn is a significantly better player.

Lets look at their values while ignoring defense.

Dunn has a wOBA=.390 which translates into a 31 runs above average over 600 PAs. He gets another 20 runs for the difference between average and replacement while loses 10 runs because he does that while playing firstbase. That makes him worth 41 run over that span independent of defense.

Gomes has a wOBA=.345. Assuming it doesn't continue to fall, that makes his bat worth 7.8 runs above average over 600 PAs. He gets 20 runs for the difference between average and replacement and loses 7.5 runs for playing left field. That makes Gomes worth 20 runs over 600 PAs.

Independent of defense, Dunn is worth 2 wins more than Gomes in that scenario. Now looking at UZR and Dewans to thumb in the air their defensive value, Dunn looks like he might be something like a -5 run defender at first. Gomes is looking like he might be something like a -15 run defender over that playing time.

The nice thing is that this offensive analysis is using wOBA values that mirror each player's career numbers suggesting it's capturing their true talent.

So given that narrative, Dunn is 3 wins more valuable than Gomes.

The Reds would basically be paying Gomes something like $2M/win ($1M contract given his 800K base and $200K option buyout), while the Nats would be paying Dunn something like $3.33M/win ($12M base salary for 3.6 wins).

It might look like the Reds are getting a better value because they are paying Gomes less per win but the Nats are getting much more bang for their buck and frankly those 3 wins the Nats are getting would be invaluable to the Reds if they stay in the race.

Without a doubt, the Reds would be getting a much better value by paying Dunn rather than Gomes.

Gomes is at least producing half as much as Dunn (actually more than half) and comes at 1/10th of the price. There is no possible way that 2010 Adam Dunn ($12 million) is a better value than 2010 Jonny Gomes ($1.2 million).

jojo
07-02-2010, 08:01 PM
There is no possible way that 2010 Adam Dunn ($12 million) is a better value than 2010 Jonny Gomes ($1.2 million).

Sure there is: http://www.redszone.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2140848

Jpup
07-03-2010, 10:54 AM
Would you call him a Jay pup, Jpup?

Nice. :thumbup:

37red
07-05-2010, 05:15 PM
Votto

subject done

dfs
07-05-2010, 06:03 PM
Votto

subject done
The two places where the arguement can possibly come back to Dunn are....

Can Joey Votto keep doing what he is doing right now? I think he can.

and

Can Joey Votto stay consistently healthy for 10 years playing every day. The ability to stay healthy is an undervalued skill and Dunn has demonstrated that skill in spades.

If Votto can do those things.... I think we would all rather have Votto, but I think it's important to at least nod in the direction of those if's first

TeamBoone
07-07-2010, 10:59 PM
I don't think I'm supposed to comment on other team's players, especially Dunn, so I didn't start a new thread. This has nothing to do with who's better, Joey or Adam... it just has to do with the fact that Adam hit THREE HR's in tonight's game! Woo Hoo!

OnBaseMachine
07-07-2010, 11:00 PM
I don't think I'm supposed to comment on other team's players, especially Dunn, so I didn't start a new thread. This has nothing to do with who's better, Joey or Adam... it just has to do with the fact that Adam hit THREE HR's in tonight's game! Woo Hoo!

First 3 HR game of his career. Congrats Adam!

TeamBoone
07-07-2010, 11:09 PM
I wanted to post this on the Dunn HR thread but couldn't find it. Apparently, it hasn't been kept up to date. A shame, because it was a really nice thread.

KronoRed
07-07-2010, 11:14 PM
I don't think I'm supposed to comment on other team's players, especially Dunn, so I didn't start a new thread. This has nothing to do with who's better, Joey or Adam... it just has to do with the fact that Adam hit THREE HR's in tonight's game! Woo Hoo!

All of them "clutch".

Sea Ray
07-07-2010, 11:21 PM
Career:
Votto: .310/.394/.542
Dunn: .251/.382/.521

Add defense and its a no-brainer. I doubt you'll get any disagreement.

I agree but since many here consider Dunn a Hall of Famer, what does that make Votto?

TRF
07-07-2010, 11:42 PM
Career:
Votto: .310/.394/.542
Dunn: .251/.382/.521

Add defense and its a no-brainer. I doubt you'll get any disagreement.

Dunn: 9 years
Votto: 3 years.

A little context is a fine thing. This was a very disingenuous post.

jojo
07-07-2010, 11:59 PM
Dunn: 9 years
Votto: 3 years.

A little context is a fine thing. This was a very disingenuous post.

Are you suggesting that Votto isn't as good as his first three years indicate and he's likely to have an unusual aging curve?

TRF
07-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Are you suggesting that Votto isn't as good as his first three years indicate and he's likely to have an unusual aging curve?

Dunn was younger at his MLB debut.

Are you suggesting that shouldn't be taken into account as well?

And are you projecting the full seasons Dunn has had that Votto has yet to do? I'm just adding balance is all.

And I still think the question should be Dunn or Gomes.

jojo
07-08-2010, 12:09 AM
Dunn was younger at his MLB debut.

Are you suggesting that shouldn't be taken into account as well?

And are you projecting the full seasons Dunn has had that Votto has yet to do? I'm just adding balance is all.

And I still think the question should be Dunn or Gomes.

I'm bristling at the disingenuous characterization.

Votto has been a 4 WAR player each of his first three years with this season (his age 26 season) obviously going to significantly eclipse that mark assuming no injury.

He's tracking to have better peak than Dunn. I think it's a straightforward and honest rather than insincere argument.

Ron Madden
07-08-2010, 04:06 AM
I wanted to post this on the Dunn HR thread but couldn't find it. Apparently, it hasn't been kept up to date. A shame, because it was a really nice thread.

I agree TB, I believe the Adam Dunn HR thread was one of the most interesting and informative threads posted here in the last three years, AtomicDumpling did a Great Job with that thread.

TRF
07-08-2010, 09:56 AM
I'm bristling at the disingenuous characterization.

Votto has been a 4 WAR player each of his first three years with this season (his age 26 season) obviously going to significantly eclipse that mark assuming no injury.

He's tracking to have better peak than Dunn. I think it's a straightforward and honest rather than insincere argument.

I'm sorry but it is. Comparing a player that has three years in the league to a 9 year vet without noting their service time is misleading at best.

Joey is a better player than Dunn. He might be a better hitter when their careers are done. He has not been as durable. He has not shown the ability to play through injury. And nobody in the game today, not even Pujols, has as much raw power as Dunn.

Thats just how I see it.

nate
07-08-2010, 11:26 AM
It's an interesting point TRF is making. I don't believe for a second there was any disingenuousness in not pointing out how long each player has been in the league. However, these WAR graphs are pretty interesting:

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_4314___sgraph_%20_7_8_2010.png

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_4314___ograph_%20_7_8_2010.png

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/319_4314___agraph_%20_7_8_2010.png

The second graph gave me pause to think about it a little more. Comparing careers, it's hard to discount Dunn's longevity and early success. Now? I think Votto's the better player.

If the Reds were in the AL and you had both of them...wow!

TRF
07-08-2010, 12:30 PM
Here is another Dunn/Gomes comparison. When Dunn has slumped this year (splits by month) his worst month was April, .824 OPS

That was a slump for Dunn. Hell, I wish Bruce would slump like that.

Ghosts of 1990
07-08-2010, 01:05 PM
Here is another Dunn/Gomes comparison. When Dunn has slumped this year (splits by month) his worst month was April, .824 OPS

That was a slump for Dunn. Hell, I wish Bruce would slump like that.

Exactly. Adam Dunn would have some absolutely terrible weeks. He'd looked like he'd never hit. He might strike out 15 times in 5 games. But he always comes back to center gravity, and that includes periods of white-hot in which he basically can carry your offense for a week.

He's always, always, always came back to that center of gravity in which he's a great offensive player. That's why Dunn is so special. Three more home runs last night. The guy is unreal and only 30 years old.