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aubashbrother
06-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Just watching MLB Tonight and Peter and Barry talking about Lee to the Reds again and Peter said that he's thought the Reds were a sleeper for Lee and that he talked to someone with the Reds today and they told him " you're not dreaming thats who we want "

brm7675
06-30-2010, 06:19 PM
Who wouldn't want Lee? The question is what do they want for him and is it worth just a 3-4 month rental because that is all it will be.

Reds
06-30-2010, 06:27 PM
Alonso is thought, by outsiders at least, to be expendable because he's blocked positionally in the bigs.

TC81190
06-30-2010, 06:31 PM
Do something like Alonso, Mesoraco, Wood, and Duran or Rodriguez.

That should be more than enough, and completely worth it.

Then package Frazier, Maloney, and Heisey for a reliever and we're in the postseason.

GIDP
06-30-2010, 06:34 PM
Do something like Alonso, Mesoraco, Wood, and Duran or Rodriguez.

That should be more than enough, and completely worth it.

that would be such a bad trade for the Reds.

davereds24
06-30-2010, 06:37 PM
both of those would be terrible

but the first is what it's going to take to get lee.

HalMorrisRules
06-30-2010, 06:59 PM
both of those would be terrible

but the first is what it's going to take to get lee.

What Ive been reading is that the last two times that Lee was traded, no top prospects were included and that for two months of a rental, Seattle is not going to be able to demand several, let alone one top prospect. I think Alonso and some Class A or AA guy could do it.

sabometrics
06-30-2010, 07:08 PM
Do something like Alonso, Mesoraco, Wood, and Duran or Rodriguez.

That should be more than enough, and completely worth it.

Then package Frazier, Maloney, and Heisey for a reliever and we're in the postseason.

Seriously? That leaves no room for error/injuries for the next 5 years. These proposals are just simply laughable.

davereds24
06-30-2010, 07:16 PM
What Ive been reading is that the last two times that Lee was traded, no top prospects were included and that for two months of a rental, Seattle is not going to be able to demand several, let alone one top prospect. I think Alonso and some Class A or AA guy could do it.

Nobody can really figure out what the Indians were thinking in that trade of Lee to Philly. That was the only time he's been traded other than when he was a prospect in the big trade of Phillips/Sizemore/Lee for colon. I hope you are right, but I'm about certain there are way too many teams out there for his value to be that low. I don't even think Alonso and Bailey/Wood would get it done.

Vottomatic
06-30-2010, 08:36 PM
I have no problem trading Yonder Alonso and Mesoraco for Cliff Lee. Grandal will probably move past Mesoraco at some point. That's why I think the Reds drafted him. Yonder has no position and is blocked from the Reds major league team.

I'm not crazy about trading Travis Wood though.

Not so sure how much value Alonso has right now considering he's batting around .220.

muddie
06-30-2010, 09:07 PM
I have no problem trading Yonder Alonso and Mesoraco for Cliff Lee. Grandal will probably move past Mesoraco at some point. That's why I think the Reds drafted him. Yonder has no position and is blocked from the Reds major league team.

I'm not crazy about trading Travis Wood though.

Not so sure how much value Alonso has right now considering he's batting around .220.

The Reds would be foolish to trade Wood at this point. Wood has a lot of potential. He's never had an opportunity to pitch at the next level. Give the kid a chance to show his stuff in the bigs. I'm very interested in seeing what he can do in his upcoming start. He reminds me of John Tudor from 'back when' if anyone remembers him.

The Voice of IH
06-30-2010, 09:21 PM
It is OK to try to win now you know... trading away a few prospects for a guy that you KNOW will get you not only in, but FAR in, the playoffs right now is well worth it in my mind. the Reds are stacked with potential down on the farm, and it would be OK if the Reds decided to get super strong now and start a winning tradition that the younger guys can look forward to.

Alonso is not going to help the team anytime soon...I hate to say it, but he is very positioned locked down and he deserves better and a chance. help him and yourself and trade for LEE!:thumbup:

redlegs7089
06-30-2010, 09:23 PM
Peter gammons was referring to yonder alonso as yonder alfonso lol

muddie
06-30-2010, 09:50 PM
Peter Gammons ain't the same guy he used to be for sure.

Regarding Alonso, I agree he really doesn't have a spot here beyond where he is now for the next several years.

Griffey012
06-30-2010, 11:27 PM
that would be such a bad trade for the Reds.

That could be similar to the Expos trading Phillips, Sizemore, Lee...which would be just plain awful.

Hey Meat
07-01-2010, 12:40 AM
I have faith in Jocketty to not pull a Krivskyish trade.

scott91575
07-01-2010, 03:39 AM
Do something like Alonso, Mesoraco, Wood, and Duran or Rodriguez.

That should be more than enough, and completely worth it.

Then package Frazier, Maloney, and Heisey for a reliever and we're in the postseason.

Alonso and Mesoraco and that is it. No way Wood. From everything I have heard Lee is worth about 1 good prospect and 1 middle of the road prospect. Alonso and Mesoraco meet that criteria. No need to pay more than that for a rental. If a team can get a long term deal contingency he might be worth more, but I don't see the Reds doing that. Here is a good write up on fangraphs...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cliff-lees-trade-value/

As for a reliever, those are a dime a dozen. The Reds don't need a closer, so most setup men won't cost much. Probably just Maloney and a throw in for a good set up man.

sabometrics
07-01-2010, 05:16 AM
In that deal, which is the good prospect and which is the middle of the road prospect?

scott91575
07-01-2010, 05:35 AM
In that deal, which is the good prospect and which is the middle of the road prospect?

Alonso is the good prospect. While he is not tearing it up, he is still considered a top 50-75 prospect by many. People have to realize his injury set back his timeline. Most GM's realize his value vs. the instant gratification most fans have. Mesaraco is the middle of the pack prospect. He still projects as a major leaguer (he is pretty young), but even with his improvement I don't see him hitting the top 75. Yet with Alonso not being a top 25 guy he is the perfect addition to actually get the deal done.

swaisuc
07-01-2010, 09:40 AM
I think Alonso is the most obvious fit for Seattle. I would probably deal him along with Wood if those 2 alone was enough to get it done. I don't really see a ton of upside with Wood here, but as a change of pace lefty in that ballpark, he could be worth something to them.

BurgervilleBuck
07-01-2010, 10:22 AM
If the Reds do get Lee, it'll a sign to the fans that they are serious contenders. The casual fans will stop bellyaching about Castellini's "win now", we baseball geeks will be drooling at the numbers, and the pink hats will help push attendance over 35k per game.

Over on ORG, the word is that a third team is needed for the Reds to get Lee -- the M's don't want Harang's contract, so maybe ship him to a third team for a high prospect or two and package them with Alonso to Seattle.

FlyerFanatic
07-01-2010, 01:14 PM
If the Reds do get Lee, it'll a sign to the fans that they are serious contenders. The casual fans will stop bellyaching about Castellini's "win now", we baseball geeks will be drooling at the numbers, and the pink hats will help push attendance over 35k per game.



this, the chapman signing was a great surprise, but now that we're in a division race, its time to show everyone you're ready to to go for it all

Caveman Techie
07-01-2010, 01:39 PM
If the Reds get Lee, I'd be tempted to buy tickets to every home game from now till the end of the season (at least the cheap seats) . Even though I'd probably only be able to go to about 10 of em.

bellhead
07-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Alonso and Mesoraco and that is it. No way Wood. From everything I have heard Lee is worth about 1 good prospect and 1 middle of the road prospect. Alonso and Mesoraco meet that criteria. No need to pay more than that for a rental. If a team can get a long term deal contingency he might be worth more, but I don't see the Reds doing that. Here is a good write up on fangraphs...

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cliff-lees-trade-value/

As for a reliever, those are a dime a dozen. The Reds don't need a closer, so most setup men won't cost much. Probably just Maloney and a throw in for a good set up man.

Mesoraco is not a middle of the road prospect anymore he has moved himself into a top five top 100 total baseball prospect. He is having a great year both offensively and defensively starting in high A and has since been promoted to AA. This is also the first year he has been injury free for a significant period of time. His ETA is Cincinnati is 2 to 3 years. Catching is the hardest position to draft and develope in baseball.

I would say Alonso and Fransisco or another starter at AAA who is going to struggle to be a everyday player in the bigs....

Mr Larkin
07-01-2010, 07:24 PM
I would only get serious with Lee if he would consider a long term deal. I think this team is setting up not for a 2010 run, but for a long run at the top of the NL Central and the NL as a whole. A rental player would really not fit into the blueprint they have been working with to this point.

Would I like Lee as a part of our rotation? You better believe it, but I would want him for an extended period. We would have to move Harang in order to free the possibility of Lee for an extended period.

defender
07-01-2010, 09:38 PM
It is OK to try to win now you know... trading away a few prospects for a guy that you KNOW will get you not only in, but FAR in, the playoffs right now is well worth it in my mind. the Reds are stacked with potential down on the farm, and it would be OK if the Reds decided to get super strong now and start a winning tradition that the younger guys can look forward to.

Alonso is not going to help the team anytime soon...I hate to say it, but he is very positioned locked down and he deserves better and a chance. help him and yourself and trade for LEE!:thumbup:

Yes.

Put the Reds on the map as a destination for free agents. The Reds will have the money to pay Lee, no reason to assume there is no way to sign him.

Reds
07-02-2010, 12:10 AM
The more I think about a possible Cliff Lee deal the more I think about the pennant and world series. I think if management could somehow pull the deal off without getting totally gutted the fans would pack the ballyard and we'd be in the post season.

webbbj
07-02-2010, 12:34 AM
i think lee + volquez coming back to 2008 form makes us the clear favorite in the NL.

ThornWithin81
07-02-2010, 12:40 AM
If you believe Cliff Lee gives you a legitimate shot at winning the World Series in 2010, you do it. Without hesitation.

PhatHead
07-02-2010, 09:06 AM
Alonso, Harang, and Heisey or Stubbs? Could Lee be signed long term for about $15 million per?

Brisco
07-02-2010, 11:22 AM
Alonso, Harang, and Heisey or Stubbs? Could Lee be signed long term for about $15 million per?

Is anyone esle experiencing some Deja vu? One decade ago we were negotiating to get a star player from Seattle, and it came down to our ability to sign that player to a long term deal.

If we can come up with the right package, and my prediction is Alonso + Bailey (If there is a way to get him off the d/l for the trade) + Boxleitner, it will come down to Jocketty seeing if Lee will sign with us at a discount to be with a team on the rise, without the pressure of a Boston or NY, and with his friend Travis in the rotation with him.

If it is a three team trade, I see the Yanks actually wanting Harang, because they simply like him and because they want to keeep the Sox from getting Lee.

berryluther
07-02-2010, 03:16 PM
Is anyone esle experiencing some Deja vu? One decade ago we were negotiating to get a star player from Seattle, and it came down to our ability to sign that player to a long term deal.

If we can come up with the right package, and my prediction is Alonso + Bailey (If there is a way to get him off the d/l for the trade) + Boxleitner, it will come down to Jocketty seeing if Lee will sign with us at a discount to be with a team on the rise, without the pressure of a Boston or NY, and with his friend Travis in the rotation with him.

If it is a three team trade, I see the Yanks actually wanting Harang, because they simply like him and because they want to keeep the Sox from getting Lee.

No way Lee signs without testing the waters. He is the next 20 million dollar pitcher. Secondly at this point I dont think that the Yanks are worried to much about the Sox. The loss of Pedrioa and VMart are going to cripple that team.

aubashbrother
07-02-2010, 09:12 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=stark_jayson&id=5349927&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fmlb %2fblog%3fname%3dstark_jayson%26id%3d5349927


We're hearing the Reds are more interested than they're letting on.

Vottomatic
07-03-2010, 03:15 AM
Jocketty always keeps these things close to the vest.

I still have mixed feelings about it all.

On one hand, I like that we're building a perennial contender with our farm system. 40% of our current 25 man roster was drafted and developed through our minor leagues. Part of me hates to part with the likes of Mesoraco and Travis Wood.

On the other hand, we have a pretty good starting rotation and the #1 offense in the NL. Adding Lee probably guarantees 8 to 10 wins in the second half alone and a couple of wins in the playoffs and Series if we get there. Increases our chances of success tremendously........an obvious statement.

I think it would scare the you know what out of St. Louis and the rest of the National League if we acquired Cliff Lee. And that would be awesome.

ian_madden
07-03-2010, 09:09 AM
What if we moved Alonso and Francisco for Lee. Toss in a low level pitcher. Anyone think this is a good idea?

scott91575
07-03-2010, 09:42 AM
What if we moved Alonso and Francisco for Lee. Toss in a low level pitcher. Anyone think this is a good idea?

I would do that. That is about what is fair. Any more than that and no way.

TheBigLebowski
07-03-2010, 09:51 AM
Yonder Alonso does not hold the weight anymore that a lot of you folks think he does. Some of our own folks (bloggers, anyway) are already calling him a bust. I certainly don't agree with that, but his stock is down right now. Way down.

Francisco, Mesorasco, Wood, Frazier, et al would not be viewed as anything more than B level prospects at this point, although I grant Wood could be arguable.

Cliff Lee is one of the top 5 pitchers in all of baseball, and he is currently employed by a team that really isn't that far away from contending. Who wouldn't want a rotation topped off by Lee and King Felix? Point is, although "word" is spreading that Seattle wants to deal him, they certainly would not part with him for a package like Alonso, Francisco and a low level minor league pitcher. I would certainly assume that any deal we make with Seattle for Cliff Lee would involve our top 2 prospects, some cash and a ML-ready pitcher with a high ceiling who has a low price tag. I can't think of anyone in this org who would qualify other than Homer or Travis Wood.

xavr1
07-03-2010, 09:51 AM
If you believe Cliff Lee gives you a legitimate shot at winning the World Series in 2010, you do it. Without hesitation.

Agreed 100%.

Everyone concerned about trading prospects should remember the uproar caused by the Blue Jays deal that sent us Rolen. Prospects may never pan out, particularly guys like Merasco and Alonso, who likely will not fill any need for us in Cincinnati anyway.

With injuries, etc., when you have a chance to make a run, you do it. Always looking to next year is a dicey prospect. If one of the best pitchers in baseball can be had as a rental for a couple prospects (who may or may not ever be half the player Lee is), you do it. Make the run now, when it is within reach.

lidspinner
07-03-2010, 09:52 AM
What if we moved Alonso and Francisco for Lee. Toss in a low level pitcher. Anyone think this is a good idea?

now that is a trade that I would like....toss in Boxbarger and call it a day...and IMO, we are overpaying by a bunch....but that is what its going to take to get the Ms to pull the trigger and not wait it out till the deadline.

xavr1
07-03-2010, 09:54 AM
Also, the latest quote from Jocketty about whether he expects to make a splash before the trading deadline convinced me that he plans to do exactly that. He made sure to keep other teams guessing by mentioning something like "we are confident with the team we have now," but took care to also note that "if theres a chance to improve our ballclub, we'll do it." I think that is a sign to other GMs that, yes we are looking, but no we arent desperate. He is gonna make a move.

Vottomatic
07-03-2010, 11:05 AM
Yonder Alonso does not hold the weight anymore that a lot of you folks think he does. Some of our own folks (bloggers, anyway) are already calling him a bust. I certainly don't agree with that, but his stock is down right now. Way down.

Francisco, Mesorasco, Wood, Frazier, et al would not be viewed as anything more than B level prospects at this point, although I grant Wood could be arguable.

Cliff Lee is one of the top 5 pitchers in all of baseball, and he is currently employed by a team that really isn't that far away from contending. Who wouldn't want a rotation topped off by Lee and King Felix? Point is, although "word" is spreading that Seattle wants to deal him, they certainly would not part with him for a package like Alonso, Francisco and a low level minor league pitcher. I would certainly assume that any deal we make with Seattle for Cliff Lee would involve our top 2 prospects, some cash and a ML-ready pitcher with a high ceiling who has a low price tag. I can't think of anyone in this org who would qualify other than Homer or Travis Wood.

I was beginning to think the same thing about Alonso. But it's possible that he's had a slow recovery from the hand injury and is just now starting to hit again. He's been on fire for several games and his .210-.220 average is now up to .255. He went 3 for 6 last night with a grand slam. Hopefully he continues a hitting surge and gets back to elite prospect status because we all know he has no position with the Reds. He is blocked by Votto and our OFers which makes him the perfect trade bait if his stock is high.

He's 9 for 16 in his last 3 games. He's 16 for 48 in his last 10 games for a .333 batting average. Heating up?

bellhead
07-03-2010, 12:38 PM
No way Lee signs without testing the waters. He is the next 20 million dollar pitcher. Secondly at this point I dont think that the Yanks are worried to much about the Sox. The loss of Pedrioa and VMart are going to cripple that team.

If you trade for Lee and sign him for 5 years 100 million, the Reds are the favorite in the Central for for the next 5 years from the day of the trade. They payroll supports a move as Bronson and Aaron will not be back next year and their salaries are more than Lee's.

The rotation over the next 5 years will be

Lee
Leake
Chapman
Baily
Volquez
Wood
Cueto

You have 6 guys who have not even hit arbitration, and together will make less than 10 million a year over the next 5 years.

You also need a stud vet. who the youngsters can go to. Add in the fact he has a Cy Young and is a lefty and is a top 3 pitcher in the game. It makes a the deal a no brainer..

Yonder for Lee is how the trade will go mark it done I am calling it..

Ohioballplayer
07-03-2010, 12:52 PM
If you believe Cliff Lee gives you a legitimate shot at winning the World Series in 2010, you do it. Without hesitation.

If we can sign im to a LTC yes, for a few month rental absolutely not, we can't mortgage the future years for a 2-3 month rental.

Vottomatic
07-03-2010, 01:00 PM
Here's Cliff Lee's journey:

June 2, 1998: Drafted by the Baltimore Orioles in the 20th round of the 1998 amateur draft, but did not sign.

June 5, 2000: Drafted by the Montreal Expos in the 4th round of the 2000 amateur draft. Player signed July 6, 2000.

June 27, 2002: Traded by the Montreal Expos with Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore and Lee Stevens to the Cleveland Indians for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew.

July 29, 2009: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Ben Francisco to the Philadelphia Phillies for Jason Knapp (minors), Carlos Carrasco, Jason Donald and Lou Marson.

December 16, 2009: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Seattle Mariners for J.C. Ramirez (minors), Phillippe Aumont (minors) and Tyson Gillies (minors).

Lefthanded. Turns 32 on August 30th (born in '78).

bellhead
07-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Yonder Alonso does not hold the weight anymore that a lot of you folks think he does. Some of our own folks (bloggers, anyway) are already calling him a bust. I certainly don't agree with that, but his stock is down right now. Way down.

Francisco, Mesorasco, Wood, Frazier, et al would not be viewed as anything more than B level prospects at this point, although I grant Wood could be arguable.

Cliff Lee is one of the top 5 pitchers in all of baseball, and he is currently employed by a team that really isn't that far away from contending. Who wouldn't want a rotation topped off by Lee and King Felix? Point is, although "word" is spreading that Seattle wants to deal him, they certainly would not part with him for a package like Alonso, Francisco and a low level minor league pitcher. I would certainly assume that any deal we make with Seattle for Cliff Lee would involve our top 2 prospects, some cash and a ML-ready pitcher with a high ceiling who has a low price tag. I can't think of anyone in this org who would qualify other than Homer or Travis Wood.

Mesorasco & Wood are not B type prospects any more. :D

Mesorasco is tearing up the minors this year hitting and defensively. He is also a catcher, young for AA, and this is his first injury free year in the minors. He is playing like a top 100 prospect in baseball.

Wood goes out makes his major league debut the other day on the road. Goes 7 innings gives up 2 runs and dominates the Cubbies. You mention he is a B type prospect? Oh and add in he is only 22 and over the last two years has dominated in AA and AAA. Most guys his age just finished pitching in the college world series.

HalMorrisRules
07-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Lee will be 32 in a month. No way I give him 5 years especially at 20M. 3 years at 50M sounds about right.

Reds
07-03-2010, 01:32 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/cliff-lee-rumors-saturday.html

"With as many as 12-15 teams teams potentially showing interesting in Cliff Lee, ESPN's Buster Olney says that the Mariners still want "big bat potential" in any deal for the lefty ace (Twitter link). He lists two candidates: Justin Smoak of the Rangers, and Yonder Alonso of the Reds. Alonso is blocked in Cincinnati by Joey Votto."

Krawhitham
07-03-2010, 02:10 PM
Who do you sit for Lee?

Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Harang
Johnny Cueto
Mike Leake
Homer Bailey

Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez
Aroldis Chapman

and who gets dropped on the 40 man roster to make room for Edinson Volquez


Only reason to get Lee is so the Cards do not get gim

HalMorrisRules
07-03-2010, 02:39 PM
This is why Bleacher Report is the stupidest website on the net.

Marmol to the Reds (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415138-mlb-trade-rumors-carlos-marmol-to-cincinnati-reds-for-chris-heisey)

This has 0% chance of happening

scott91575
07-03-2010, 02:42 PM
This is why Bleacher Report is the stupidest website on the net.

Marmol to the Reds (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415138-mlb-trade-rumors-carlos-marmol-to-cincinnati-reds-for-chris-heisey)

This has 0% chance of happening

about the writer....


Illya Harrell is a retired grocery store bag boy.

He wishes that he had never quit little league baseball because he is confident that he would have been the next Billy Jo Robidoux.

When not obsessing over what might have been, Illya enjoys watching baseball, thinking about baseball, reading baseball articles and books, writing baseball articles, playing fantasy league baseball, and replaying the 1986 baseball season on an obscure baseball board game.

Other hobbies include college football and drinking bubbly water.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/users/photos/000/119/838/me_crop_257x257.jpg?1259890266

yes, that really is the writer, or a total joke. Click on the writer's name. This is the type of person that writes "articles" on Bleacher Report. The whole site should be banned from ever being linked.

The Voice of IH
07-03-2010, 02:48 PM
I heard somewhere (I think ESPN's MLB tonight) that the Mariners really want a catcher in the deal for Lee. If that is true....

Mesoraco would be a key part in the Reds movement. Maybe that is why they took the risk in drafting Yasmani Grandal, who they knew was going to be a tough sign. That way they had a young catcher on the Farm for the future. Like I said before, Alonso is positioned lock, and deserves a chance at the big leagues. I think it would be great for both teams in a Alonso-Mesoraco, Lee trade.

I think the Reds have to get a big #1 pitcher for the playoff run. we saw how important it was in Seattle. If the Reds make this deal, and with Volqueze returning and Chapman coming up, This team would become an instant threat for a World Series Title.

Like a previous post said (paraphrasing) "if Lee makes you a world series contender then do it" I can not agree more. if we can keep wood, it would be great...but if Wood HAS to be part of it, I think you need to send him packing.

Just my 2 cents

scott91575
07-03-2010, 02:51 PM
Who do you sit for Lee?

Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Harang
Johnny Cueto
Mike Leake
Homer Bailey

Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez
Aroldis Chapman

and who gets dropped on the 40 man roster to make room for Edinson Volquez


Only reason to get Lee is so the Cards do not get gim

Harang, Bailey, and Wood. Leake will need to be sat in September and replaced by Harang or Bailey anyway (case would be the same with Wood). There, was that so tough?

BEETTLEBUG
07-03-2010, 03:40 PM
I would like Marmol deal for Heisey but it won't happen

Krawhitham
07-03-2010, 04:24 PM
Harang, Bailey, and Wood. Leake will need to be sat in September and replaced by Harang or Bailey anyway (case would be the same with Wood). There, was that so tough?

Wood eats Leake's innings, between the two they should be able to pitch through the playoffs for 1 of the 5 spots

Harang while not a fan fav anymore has 4 out 5 quality starts in this last 5

Assuming you only use Chapman in the pen that still gives the Reds 6 starters

We have 5 plus starters

Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Harang
Johnny Cueto
Mike Leake/Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez

Homer Bailey a man without a spot

now tell me again were Lee pitches?

scott91575
07-03-2010, 04:47 PM
Wood eats Leake's innings, between the two they should be able to pitch through the playoffs for 1 of the 5 spots

Harang while not a fan fav anymore has 4 out 5 quality starts in this last 5

Assuming you only use Chapman in the pen that still gives the Reds 6 starters

We have 5 plus starters

Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Harang
Johnny Cueto
Mike Leake/Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez

Homer Bailey a man without a spot

now tell me again were Lee pitches?

Arroyo is not a plus starter. Harang is not a plus starter. Wood is unproven. One start does not make him a Cy Young candidate. Leake has been hit hard recently, and Volquez is coming off major surgery. Lee is an improvement over every single pitcher the Reds have. If he can be had for the right price you find a spot for him, and no offense, but that is pretty easy to do. I know everyone wants to think a few recent starts means it will continue the rest of the season, but you have to be really careful with Harang's dead cat bounce. He has not been good the last three years, but you would rather have him than Cliff Lee because he had a few quality starts recently?

To cut to the chase, you want to know where Lee pitches? Any damn spot he likes, because he is better than anyone in the entire Reds organization.

The Voice of IH
07-03-2010, 04:49 PM
you are assuming that Volqueze comes in and tears it up right? if that is the case....you rotation becomes

1.Lee
2.Volqueze
3. Cueto
4. Arroyo
5. Bailey/Wood

you are assuming a lot when you think that Volqueze can come in and tear it up, but lets say he does. then Harang HAS to hit the Pen. like everyone says, he is a good "4 or 5" guy. but this Rotation will be filled with "1 and 2" guys. (with Lee) Bailey also will have to compete for a spot when he gets back, the loser of Wood-Bailey goes to the pen...no big deal. (of course this is assuming that wood is not gone when Lee comes :thumbup:) Leake has to go to the pen soon :thumbdown but facts are facts :(.

If Volqueze can not get the job done then he goes back down for the rest of the season (or even him can go to the pen, just depends) and the rotation looks like this

1.Lee
2. Arroyo
3.Cueto
4.Harrang
5 Woods/Bailey.

I think it looks better with Harrang in the pen and Volqueze tearing it up though :thumbup::beerme:

EDIT: or if you want, you could put Harrang in the 5th spot of the first roation, and send Bailey (assuming he comes back strong) and Woods in the Pen. that would create a crazy good pen with the likes of Leake, Woods, Bailey, Chapman, Rhodes and CoCo lol
This also comes to mind : that would make 3 "nasty" Rightys and 3 "nasty" leftys!!!!!!

Vottomatic
07-03-2010, 04:55 PM
Terrible time for Bailey to go down. I was hoping we could package him in a trade.

Kiss the Baby00
07-03-2010, 05:37 PM
Terrible time for Bailey to go down. I was hoping we could package him in a trade.

im not ready to give up on homer yet. he is only 24 and has had a cpl very good minor league seasons with high K totals.

i agree that it was a terrible time for him to go down, as this would be a great time to see what he has.

homer has shown a history of having a mediocre season in the minors followed by a very good season when he repeats the level. since homer had his first full taste of the majors last year, i was hoping he could show us that he is the pitcher we have been hyping him up to be the last 6 years.

Caveman Techie
07-04-2010, 11:20 AM
now tell me again were Lee pitches?

You're kidding right? You are talking about a situation where the Reds get one of the most dominant pitchers in the Majors and you can't figure out what spot in the rotation to put him? I could make an argument for him to replace just about anyone in the rotation except for Arroyo and Cueto.

webbbj
07-04-2010, 11:39 AM
You're kidding right? You are talking about a situation where the Reds get one of the most dominant pitchers in the Majors and you can't figure out what spot in the rotation to put him? I could make an argument for him to replace just about anyone in the rotation except for Arroyo and Cueto.

^^^^^
exactly. the better question is where does harang, bailey, leake, wood pitch. doubt the reds are like "sorry cliff lee we have no room for a #1 starter we already have harang sorry no room for you"

Caveman Techie
07-04-2010, 12:16 PM
So I just posed your question about who would come out of the rotation to my 13 year old son. Without hesitation he said,

"Aaron Harang"

Now this is coming from a kid who since he was 7 years old has idolized Harang. His number on every baseball team he's been on is 39. When we went to Redsfest he stood in line for 2 hours before Harangs autograph session was even scheduled to begin, because he heard the rumor that Harang was only going to be there for 15 minutes and he didn't want to miss out.

Vottomatic
07-04-2010, 01:05 PM
You're kidding right? You are talking about a situation where the Reds get one of the most dominant pitchers in the Majors and you can't figure out what spot in the rotation to put him? I could make an argument for him to replace just about anyone in the rotation except for Arroyo and Cueto.

I'm looking for a laughing smiley. Where does Lee pitch if we acquire him?

Gee, we probably send him to Louisville. :rolleyes:

There it is. I found it. :laugh:

Vottomatic
07-04-2010, 05:39 PM
Cliff Lee today:

8 IP, 1 earned run, 1 walk :eek:, 11 K's. Goes to 8-3 with the win.

scott91575
07-04-2010, 05:49 PM
Cliff Lee today:

8 IP, 1 earned run, 1 walk :eek:, 11 K's. Goes to 8-3 with the win.

Just look at his last 8 starts...

6-1, 65 innings (over 8 innings per start), 1.83 ERA, WHIP 0.95, 57 strikeouts, 4 complete games, and 1 shutout.

Vottomatic
07-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Just look at his last 8 starts...

6-1, 65 innings (over 8 innings per start), 1.83 ERA, WHIP 0.95, 57 strikeouts, 4 complete games, and 1 shutout.

Yeah, but who does he replace. I read somewhere that we have no place for him. ;) :D See below:


Originally Posted by Krawhitham
Wood eats Leake's innings, between the two they should be able to pitch through the playoffs for 1 of the 5 spots

Harang while not a fan fav anymore has 4 out 5 quality starts in this last 5

Assuming you only use Chapman in the pen that still gives the Reds 6 starters

We have 5 plus starters

Bronson Arroyo
Aaron Harang
Johnny Cueto
Mike Leake/Travis Wood
Edinson Volquez

Homer Bailey a man without a spot

now tell me again were Lee pitches?

BLEEDS
07-04-2010, 07:43 PM
The rotation over the next 5 years will be

Lee
Leake
Chapman
Baily
Volquez
Wood
Cueto

You have 6 guys who have not even hit arbitration, and together will make less than 10 million a year over the next 5 years.

Bailey, Cueto and Volquez are all at/near arbitration eligible. Cueto for sure is after this year; Bailey and Volquez depends how much they pitch this year.

Still, your point is Valid, they are CHEAP - and Leake/Wood/Chapman will be cheap for at least 2-3 years.

We CAN support a Cliff Lee atop this rotation - IFF we jettison BOTH Harang and Arroyo.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

HalMorrisRules
07-05-2010, 10:51 PM
MLB Tonight is reporting that Seattle and Minnesota have tentatively reached a deal involving Cliff Lee. Says all the particulars have been agreed upon and know Seattle is just deciding to pull the trigger.

Kingspoint
07-05-2010, 10:52 PM
MLB Tonight is reporting that Seattle and Minnesota have tentatively reached a deal involving Cliff Lee. Says all the particulars have been agreed upon and know Seattle is just deciding to pull the trigger.

Nobody has minor league depth like the Twins.

Hopefully, this is very good for both teams, as I really like both teams quite a bit (though I'd rather see Lee in a REDS uniform).

Better that he goes to an American League team if he isn't going to us.

HalMorrisRules
07-05-2010, 10:53 PM
@SI_JonHeyman
source: there are "interesting discussions" and "possibilities" for a cliff lee deal to twins.

This was on Twitter.

Reds
07-05-2010, 10:54 PM
There are discussions regarding Cliff Lee between the Mariners and Twins that according to one person familiar with the talks are "interesting" and "have possibilities."

As of yet there is no confirmation of an agreement.

A second source said the Mariners were looking for catching prospect Wilson Ramos in a package. Seattle wants a big-league ready catcher. And Ramos is blocked in Minnesota by All-Star Joe Mauer.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/07/05/mariners.lee/

GIDP
07-05-2010, 10:57 PM
Ill believe it when I see it

Wilson Ramos is having a worse year than Alonso is having.

Vottomatic
07-05-2010, 10:58 PM
Off of ORG:


Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine
#Twins source denies any deal is done for Seattle pitcher Cliff Lee. Twitter rumblings had a Detroit radio station saying it's a done deal.

http://twitter.com/KSTPTVSports

FlyerFanatic
07-05-2010, 11:10 PM
walt might want to get a move on if hes going too. hes probably wanting to wait to see how volquez looks, but he even said volquez is getting another start in AAA cuz his last start wasnt great. only going 5. pick the phone up now walt!

Reds
07-05-2010, 11:12 PM
just read that the Reds have told Prospect Insider that Jay Bruce and Joey Votto are off limits in such a trade. (one for cliff lee) duh!

The Voice of IH
07-05-2010, 11:15 PM
just read that the Reds have told Prospect Insider that Jay Bruce and Joey Votto are off limits in such a trade. (one for cliff lee) duh!

LOL. unless you want the city to burn down LMAO ;)

GIDP
07-05-2010, 11:15 PM
just read that the Reds have told Prospect Insider that Jay Bruce and Joey Votto are off limits in such a trade. (one for cliff lee) duh!
What about Volquez and Cueto, and Jesus Christ?

FlyerFanatic
07-05-2010, 11:16 PM
what does the bleacher report website say? they are so reliable ;)

Reds
07-05-2010, 11:17 PM
and


if you haven't heard by now, A Detroit radio station has been reporting Monday night that a deal between Seattle Mariners and Minnesota Twins involving Cliff Lee is done.

I'm here to tell you there is NOT a deal done between the two clubs, per a Twins representative.

A front office executive from another club shares what he was told about the Twins and Lee, saying that the M's may be demanding that switch-hitting center fielder Aaron Hicks be involved in the deal, and the Twins have balked, understandably.

http://prospectinsider.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=3ad8e9a5d04037fa64bca56e6987bd ef

Vottomatic
07-05-2010, 11:19 PM
what does the bleacher report website say? they are so reliable ;)

The Bleacher Report has Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Phillips, Cueto, Wood, Mesoraco, Grandal, Ondrusek, Rhodes, Leake to the Mariners for a 3 month rental of Cliff Lee.

FlyerFanatic
07-05-2010, 11:20 PM
The Bleacher Report has Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Phillips, Cueto, Wood, Mesoraco, Grandal, Ondrusek, Rhodes, Leake to the Mariners for a 3 month rental of Cliff Lee.

thats all but done i imagine ;)

Reds
07-05-2010, 11:21 PM
and one more, more detail

://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/5/1554080/cliff-lee-trade-rumors-mariners-twins


Jul 5, 2010 - Late Monday night a rumor hit Twitter that a trade sending Cliff Lee to Minnesota was a "done deal." Evidently, the rumor began with a tweet sent by Mark Anderson, a reporter with the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Anderson sent a tweet to John Fayman, a reporter with the Cincinnati Enquirer.

Here's Anderson's tweet:

@johnfayman Detroit radio saying deal between Cliff Lee and Twins a done deal.

So, a reporter based in Las Vegas told a reporter based in Cincinnati about something he heard in or from Detroit, about a deal between teams in Seattle and Minnesota. Got all that?

Anderson's tweet is less than an hour old, but in that time it has been re-tweeted 34 times, and thanks to that and additional second-hand discussion, the rumor has made its way around the baseball yakking community. A Minnesota TV station is denying that a deal has been made:

#Twins source denies any deal is done for Seattle pitcher Cliff Lee. Twitter rumblings had a Detroit radio station saying it's a done deal.

However, if you want to believe that something is afoot, you could read into that tweet that merely nothing is done, right now. If you believe Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated, that is exactly what's going on. Heyman reports late tonight that discussions are ongoing between Seattle and Minnesota. According to Heyman's source, the talks are "interesting" and "have possibilities."

Stay tuned. Maybe.

texasdave
07-05-2010, 11:21 PM
The Bleacher Report has Votto, Bruce, Stubbs, Phillips, Cueto, Wood, Mesoraco, Grandal, Ondrusek, Rhodes, Leake to the Mariners for a 3 month rental of Cliff Lee.

How much cash are the Reds sending along to cover all of those salaries? :)

Vottomatic
07-05-2010, 11:21 PM
thats all but done i imagine ;)

Yeah. Trade completes at midnight. We're minutes away!!!!

GIDP
07-06-2010, 11:27 AM
@PGammo: Rumblings around St. Pete ballpark was a BJ Upton-Cliff Lee deal. 3-way?

I wonder what that would be about. I dont know how that works out. Who would be the 3rd team that needs a CFer.

Braves could use one, so could the Dodgers if they traded Kemp. Who knows.

Vottomatic
07-06-2010, 09:53 PM
Read on ORG a proposed offer of Alonso, Wood, Francisco for Lee. Don't know if it's official or not, but they're talking about it.

Sounds like an awful lot to give up for a rental.

Alonso - former #1 pick and one of our top two hitters in the system, coming off injury. Still considered to have alot of upside and potential.

Wood - pitcher of the year in the minors last year. Probably our best minor league starting pitcher.

Francisco - wasn't he POY in the minors last year?

That's 3 of our best players. If not THE best prospects.

Seems like alot to me. I don't like it. I think 2 should get it done. I'd prefer not to trade Wood.

GIDP
07-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Francisco is completely overhyped. I hope they can find a away for him to be the main piece.

bshall2105
07-06-2010, 10:00 PM
Is Sam LeCure good enough to warrant some trade interest? I have never heard his name mentioned in any trade rumors. I know he's a little older than Wood, but he seemed to have some potential.

GIDP
07-06-2010, 10:01 PM
Is Sam LeCure good enough to warrant some trade interest? I have never heard his name mentioned in any trade rumors. I know he's a little older than Wood, but he seemed to have some potential.

Would you want Sam Lecure in a trade? Maybe as like the 4th or 5th guy I would but certainly not as a good chip.

Vottomatic
07-06-2010, 10:47 PM
From Buster Olney:


Heard this:
The Lee trade talks are "heating up" according to a source, with some teams interested in adding the lefty ASAP.

http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN

......and then.......



Buster Olney just repeated on Baseball Tonight what he reported on twitter - talks for Cliff Lee are heating up and the Reds are one of the teams involved.

abish1572
07-06-2010, 10:51 PM
From Buster Olney:



......and then.......



WOW that is completly shocking... I wouldnt even think the reds would try to pursue him...

GIDP
07-06-2010, 10:58 PM
Please dont give up a ton.

Billy_Bearcat
07-06-2010, 11:00 PM
Using tonight's game as exhibit A, I would say starting pitching is not the biggest weakness on this team. They need to plug someone into the OF that can make contact consistently.

The Voice of IH
07-06-2010, 11:10 PM
oh one can only pry....though I do not want to part with Wood....I will in a heart beat for Lee LOL :D

Caveman Techie
07-07-2010, 07:44 AM
Offense is the least of this teams problems (not that there are many). I was thinking the exact opposite. Tonight showed why the Reds need that true #1 pitcher to shutdown the opposition. The Reds are stocked up on good pitching, but they still lack that dominant guy that when the other teams see they are going up against him they go ahead and chalk that one up as a loss.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 07:50 AM
Offense is the least of this teams problems (not that there are many). I was thinking the exact opposite. Tonight showed why the Reds need that true #1 pitcher to shutdown the opposition. The Reds are stocked up on good pitching, but they still lack that dominant guy that when the other teams see they are going up against him they go ahead and chalk that one up as a loss.

Well said.

As fans we do that.

We chalk up losses when we see Halladay (although we beat him), Carpenter, Wainwright (beat him too), Haren, Lincecum, Cliff Lee (we missed his turn), Greinke..................we need someone like that.

Mr Larkin
07-07-2010, 10:15 AM
John Kruk on the radio yesterday said that as a player he had the opinion of lets win today instead of lets protect our team of tomorrow.

I thin that makes sense. If we put together a strong package for Lee and we actually get deep in the playoffs and make a run for the whole thing, it would be worth it.

It would be tragic if we decided to stay the course and the players we hoped would be great in the future never pan out. I hate giving up anything for a rental, unless the rental puts us over the top - then I think its justified.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 01:45 PM
I have spoken with two scouts who say Juan Francisco, not Yonder Alonso, would be the #Reds' best bat to offer for #CliffLee. #Mariners

Francisco is such a over rated talent. Id trade Franciscos every day for major league pitchers.

Lockdwn11
07-07-2010, 02:18 PM
I have spoken with two scouts who say Juan Francisco, not Yonder Alonso, would be the #Reds' best bat to offer for #CliffLee. #Mariners

Francisco is such a over rated talent. Id trade Franciscos every day for major league pitchers.

+1

GIDP
07-07-2010, 02:24 PM
+1

Yea btw the "I" in my post is Jon Morosi.

brm7675
07-07-2010, 02:27 PM
We won't get Lee because according to MLB trade rumors:

The Cliff Lee trade talk started intensifying yesterday, as the Twins, Mets, Yankees, Rangers, Phillies and Tigers now have a new suitor to out-bid: the Rays. Not only are the Rays on the periphery of the Lee sweepstakes, they are ready to add payroll and appear willing to part with B.J. Upton. The Yankees are confident that they can jump in and pry Lee away from their divisional foes, but let's not rule out the Yanks' crosstown rivals. Here is the latest on the Mets and Cliff Lee, with more rumors to come throughout the day:


The Mariners are calling teams back and telling them that it will take two blue-chip prospects plus a third young player to acquire Lee, according to Jayson Stark of ESPN.com.

brm7675
07-07-2010, 02:31 PM
According to Brandon Phillips who said With Edinson Volquez set to rejoin Cincinnati soon, that he doesn't think the Reds need to trade for a pitcher.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 02:31 PM
They also are completely lying about that and just trying to get more for him. There is no way they pass up AAA talent plus more for 2 picks that will take at least 3 seasons to get to the point half the guys being offered for Lee take.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 02:33 PM
According to Brandon Phillips who said With Edinson Volquez set to rejoin Cincinnati soon, that he doesn't think the Reds need to trade for a pitcher.

Brandon isnt going to piss off his team mates and say "we need another pitcher". He might think they dont or he might think they do but I doubt anyone is going to say that publically.

Lockdwn11
07-07-2010, 02:57 PM
As long as the Cards don't get him it's a win for the Reds IMO

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 05:45 PM
Daggone. I went on Lance McAlister's blog and he had a story from SI.com about predicting second half trades. The story had the Reds obtaining Cliff Lee for Yonder Alonso and a package of other players. I didn't catch the headline and actually got excited thinking the Reds had traded for Cliff Lee.........I was fired up.........came over to this board and NOTHING ABOUT IT. Went back to Lance's blog and saw the headline "2nd half predictions".

UGH. Frustrating. Had me higher than a kite.

Now my kite is stuck in the trees. :eek:

The Voice of IH
07-07-2010, 06:11 PM
LOL at you Matic! :D

Something to also think about is creating a winning culture. though this team has done a good job thus far competing (and picking up wins) I think the organization needs to show a BIG commitment that they too want to win. Lee (or any Stud number 1) would do that.

FlyerFanatic
07-07-2010, 06:15 PM
getting lee would be huge. i really believe if we got him, we could resign him too

get er done, walt!

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 10:00 PM
Chapman's outing tonight in relief:


HBP, Passed Ball, Wild Pitch, 2 K's, a Walk, a Single, all in one inning and he's given up 1 run.

Chapman straight up for Cliff Lee? :D

Kingspoint
07-07-2010, 10:03 PM
I'm in the Getting-Lee-so-nobody-else-gets-him Corner.

ashack35
07-07-2010, 10:52 PM
Gotta go after a true Ace. With a selection of pitchers that are 2's and 3's on any other staff ( dont get me wrong, they have done well). How long will our guys hold it together? How will Edison come back? Too many questions here when the answer is in Seattle. I scuttlebutt is the M's want 2 blue chips and another body. I say give up Wood, Alonso, and let them pick a player in AA or AAA ball, wrap a ribbon around them and lets make a true run at the Divison. Jockerty promised a winner and we would be done losing, lets see if he is a man of his word. You can't give up the farm for Lee but the Reds for the first time in a long time can make a trade with top picks and not ruin the teams forseeable future along with it. Lee dont have to be a rental either, if the Reds can win with him and put a good taste in his mouth and about 20 million a year in his wallet a staff of Lee, Volquez, Cuedo, Leake, and Bailey in that order sounds good to me brother.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 10:55 PM
Seattle is looking for a quality catching prospect and a good bat. I think Alonso and Mesoraco would get it done with maybe a lower level prospect too.

Plus, I'd rather keep Wood and Heisey.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 11:01 PM
The latest:


•ESPN.com’s Buster Olney hears that the Yankees are not engaged in trade talks for Lee now. They are confident they could acquire the left-hander, but do not intend to deal for him. Olney says the Twins are the favorites to acquire Lee, followed by the Reds, the Rays, the Mets, the Rangers and the field.

BUTLER REDSFAN
07-07-2010, 11:08 PM
Just signed up on Reds.com today to get team alerts sent to my cell phone...now wanting my cell phone to vibrate at work about 11 in the morning over the next few days to tell me this trade went thru. :)

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:11 PM
Seattle is looking for a quality catching prospect and a good bat. I think Alonso and Mesoraco would get it done with maybe a lower level prospect too.

Plus, I'd rather keep Wood and Heisey.

Giving up a catching prospect for half a season of a pitcher no matter how good seems like a very bad move.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 11:14 PM
Giving up a catching prospect for half a season of a pitcher no matter how good seems like a very bad move.

There are rumors that the Reds are going to try and sign him long term. If they get mlb to give them an opportunity window to sign him and make the deal contingent on him signing long term, I have no problem with it.

But I don't want him as a rental at that price. And supposedly it is going to take two blue chip prospects to make that deal.

Unless the team getting him can sign him, I feel sorry for them giving up too much.

sabometrics
07-07-2010, 11:15 PM
There are rumors that the Reds are going to try and sign him long term. If they get mlb to give them an opportunity window to sign him and make the deal contingent on him signing long term, I have no problem with it.

But I don't want him as a rental at that price. And supposedly it is going to take two blue chip prospects to make that deal.

Unless the team getting him can sign him, I feel sorry for them giving up too much.

Where have you heard these rumors? At every turn this year I have consistently heard that he is intent on testing the market. The Reds brass may want to do that, but I'm not sold Lee does.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:15 PM
There are rumors that the Reds are going to try and sign him long term. If they get mlb to give them an opportunity window to sign him and make the deal contingent on him signing long term, I have no problem with it.

But I don't want him as a rental at that price. And supposedly it is going to take two blue chip prospects to make that deal.

Unless the team getting him can sign him, I feel sorry for them giving up too much.
I dont see them offering up 20 million over 5 or 6 to lee.

sabometrics
07-07-2010, 11:17 PM
The Yankees stance seems to be exactly what is expected. "We could get him now, but we'd rather not give up any prospects and just sign him this winter." They're already good enough to make a WS run as is, they can afford to wait until the offseason.

BUTLER REDSFAN
07-07-2010, 11:18 PM
Could we get him before the ASG? Or do we have to wait until after that? Dont guess it really matters.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:19 PM
The Yankees stance seems to be exactly what is expected. "We could get him now, but we'd rather not give up any prospects and just sign him this winter." They're already good enough to make a WS run as is, they can afford to wait until the offseason.

That crap annoys me so much, but hey they have the most money so they can do what ever they want.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:20 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-latest-news-from-July-070110

Reds and Mariners have exchanged names? So says some people at Foxsports.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 11:22 PM
I heard someone talking about it on WLW. Doesn't mean it's true, but they said they heard from Reds insiders that Walt and Bob would actually like to lock Lee up at maybe 5 years $100M.

Again, probably just someone spouting off at the mouth.

Vottomatic
07-07-2010, 11:24 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-latest-news-from-July-070110

Reds and Mariners have exchanged names? So says some people at Foxsports.

From the article:


Seattle GM Jack Zduriencik was fond of Alonso leading up to the 2008 draft, when the Reds selected him in the first round. After a disappointing June, Alonso is batting .379 with three home runs in his first seven games of July.

bshall2105
07-07-2010, 11:36 PM
I heard someone talking about it on WLW. Doesn't mean it's true, but they said they heard from Reds insiders that Walt and Bob would actually like to lock Lee up at maybe 5 years $100M.

Again, probably just someone spouting off at the mouth.

Wow signing him until he's 37. I'd be more in favor of a three year deal. If we plan on signing Votto to a contract somewhat similar, I don't see how five years $100M could be an option for the Reds.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:36 PM
Id give them Francisco and Yonder.

Mes, Wood, and Yorman are all off limits for the most part. They can basically have anyone else with in reason. such as not asking for Yonder, Frazier, Maloney, and Francisco.

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:38 PM
Wow signing him until he's 37. I'd be more in favor of a three year deal. If we plan on signing Votto to a contract somewhat similar, I don't see how five years $100M could be an option for the Reds.

Reds could offer him that much but it would be pretty ballsy considering if something happened they would be in pretty big trouble salary wise. Then again if they win they might be able to make a ton of money since the Reds fans are starving for good baseball.

bshall2105
07-07-2010, 11:45 PM
Reds could offer him that much but it would be pretty ballsy considering if something happened they would be in pretty big trouble salary wise. Then again if they win they might be able to make a ton of money since the Reds fans are starving for good baseball.

I just don't want the Reds to end up like today's Cubs.

Pony Boy
07-07-2010, 11:47 PM
Id give them Francisco and Yonder.

Mes, Wood, and Yorman are all off limits for the most part. They can basically have anyone else with in reason. such as not asking for Yonder, Frazier, Maloney, and Francisco.

I would actually give them Yonder, Frazier, Maloney and Francisco. I'm not high on any of those guys other than Yonder (who is blocked).

GIDP
07-07-2010, 11:53 PM
I would actually give them Yonder, Frazier, Maloney and Francisco. I'm not high on any of those guys other than Yonder (who is blocked).

Thats way too much for how little you will have Lee IMO. That would be flat out crazy.

malcontent
07-07-2010, 11:57 PM
ēESPN.comís Buster Olney hears that the Yankees are not engaged in trade talks for Lee now. They are confident they could acquire the left-hander, but do not intend to deal for him.

Am I mistaken, or does that reek of Yankee hubris?

Pony Boy
07-08-2010, 12:01 AM
Thats way too much for how little you will have Lee IMO. That would be flat out crazy.

Your probably right, but it still wouldn't bother me. I just don't see any of those guys, other than Yonder, being anything other than a borderline MLB player. Just my gut feeling.

Pony Boy
07-08-2010, 12:03 AM
ēESPN.comís Buster Olney hears that the Yankees are not engaged in trade talks for Lee now. They are confident they could acquire the left-hander, but do not intend to deal for him.

Am I mistaken, or does that reek of Yankee hubris?

It reeks of reality.

R_Webb18
07-08-2010, 12:13 AM
i hope we get lee. if we do instant lock for division or no?

GIDP
07-08-2010, 12:15 AM
Your probably right, but it still wouldn't bother me. I just don't see any of those guys, other than Yonder, being anything other than a borderline MLB player. Just my gut feeling.

It's possible, but even if Todd Frazier is a .800 OPS hitter hes going to have value, especially at league minimum.

malcontent
07-08-2010, 01:09 AM
It reeks of reality.
Too true.

BLEEDS
07-08-2010, 01:52 AM
Okay, so I admit I haven't kept tabs on Mes, but it seems it wasn't that long ago that folks were giving up on him, he was the biggest bust in xxx...

To me, all signs point to "SELL HIGH!".

Also, do NOT underestimate the power of Walt to sign him long-term, Cast has the money AND the chip on his shoulder and St. Louis still in our shadow; they'd love nothing better than to stick it to the Cards, and this is our best opportunity to do just that.

Alonso is pure trade bait. Francisco is a flawed player at best.
Wood and Maloney are good BOR players.

IF you can't trade a BOR guy, albeit cheap and young, along with a blocked player or two from your Farm system, for a PROVEN TOR #1 Starter, potential Cy Young guy, top 5 (or at least 10) Pitchers in all of baseball, at a time when it can propel you from contender to favorite, I don't think you should be put in charge of GM-ing a MLB team.

The caution by some - scratch that - MOST of the folks here on RZ is downright appalling to say the least, and shocking at best.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kiss the Baby00
07-08-2010, 02:28 AM
a rotation down the stretch of:

Lee
Volquez
Arroyo
Cueto
Leake/Harang/Bailey/Wood/Maloney (this would be a great problem to have)

I would be happy trading for Lee as long as we didnt trade Mez or Wood and obv chapman. Make it happen Walt. We havent been 3 games up this late in 10 years. Go Reds!

I like Yonder, Maloney, Francisco/Frazier for Lee and Brandon League.

sabometrics
07-08-2010, 02:46 AM
I love that it seems like all the potential pieces that could be in a deal for Lee are playing some of their best baseball right now. Frazier/Alonso/Francisco are on a tear in Louisville. Maloney has been solid all year and was impressive on Tuesday against no slouch of a team in the Mets. Wood is performing splendidly at the Major League level. Mez has been a stud all year and his value is skyhigh atm. Heisey has been the surprise of the year with just how much of a role-player he has been. Any scouts out there are seeing these guys play their best baseball of the season atm.

Inevitably that makes it tough to say goodbye to any of them but we can do it knowing we didn't have to trade even more because our prospects were scuffling. I trust Walt to not overpay.

malcontent
07-08-2010, 04:02 AM
If they do get him, I hope Wood isn't part of the package.

Lee knows him, taught him the cutter.

As for signing him long-term, that would be great. But I'd hate to see it cost the Reds the chance to extend Arroyo.

For an exciting 2011 rotation, with Harang gone and Bailey moved:

LH Lee
RH Volquez
RH Cueto
RH Leake
RH Arroyo
LH Wood
LH Chapman???

That rotation could make one forget the Haynes/Hamilton years....

urdun
07-08-2010, 04:06 AM
Okay, so I admit I haven't kept tabs on Mes, but it seems it wasn't that long ago that folks were giving up on him, he was the biggest bust in xxx...

To me, all signs point to "SELL HIGH!".

Also, do NOT underestimate the power of Walt to sign him long-term, Cast has the money AND the chip on his shoulder and St. Louis still in our shadow; they'd love nothing better than to stick it to the Cards, and this is our best opportunity to do just that.

Alonso is pure trade bait. Francisco is a flawed player at best.
Wood and Maloney are good BOR players.

IF you can't trade a BOR guy, albeit cheap and young, along with a blocked player or two from your Farm system, for a PROVEN TOR #1 Starter, potential Cy Young guy, top 5 (or at least 10) Pitchers in all of baseball, at a time when it can propel you from contender to favorite, I don't think you should be put in charge of GM-ing a MLB team.

The caution by some - scratch that - MOST of the folks here on RZ is downright appalling to say the least, and shocking at best.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

with exception of a handful of prospects I don't think anyone would hate any deal for Lee. chapman, hamilton and yorman seem to be the 3 players everyone would prefer to keep with Mez as a close 4th. nothing wrong with preferring to keep certain players on a guy who is probably not gonna be here long. some want to make the very best deal they can also nothing wrong with that which is all I think most rz's are saying.

usually teams don't get quite as much as everyone lets on they will so I think lee will go for what most here are saying he will a blue chipper, a solid piece and some filler.

malcontent
07-08-2010, 04:15 AM
Anyone think the Reds are offering Bailey (along with Alonso)?

texasdave
07-08-2010, 04:26 AM
Anyone think the Reds are offering Bailey (along with Alonso)?

Quite possibly. Sometimes a team has to roll the dice and take a chance. If a prospect pans out, oh well. You can't keep all of your prospects. Not with a post-season berth on the line.

texasdave
07-08-2010, 04:34 AM
From MLBtraderumors.com:


•Two scouts tell Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports that third base prospect Juan Francisco would be the Reds' best trade chip, not Yonder Alonso (Twitter link).

And that probably tells you all you really need to know about scouts. LOL.

Vottomatic
07-08-2010, 07:33 AM
Okay, so I admit I haven't kept tabs on Mes, but it seems it wasn't that long ago that folks were giving up on him, he was the biggest bust in xxx...

To me, all signs point to "SELL HIGH!".

Also, do NOT underestimate the power of Walt to sign him long-term, Cast has the money AND the chip on his shoulder and St. Louis still in our shadow; they'd love nothing better than to stick it to the Cards, and this is our best opportunity to do just that.

Alonso is pure trade bait. Francisco is a flawed player at best.
Wood and Maloney are good BOR players.

IF you can't trade a BOR guy, albeit cheap and young, along with a blocked player or two from your Farm system, for a PROVEN TOR #1 Starter, potential Cy Young guy, top 5 (or at least 10) Pitchers in all of baseball, at a time when it can propel you from contender to favorite, I don't think you should be put in charge of GM-ing a MLB team.

The caution by some - scratch that - MOST of the folks here on RZ is downright appalling to say the least, and shocking at best.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

My thoughts exactly as I said it earlier in the thread.

I think the Reds are interested in signing Lee long term. 5 years $100M is one rumor I heard on WLW. They need a #1 starter and Chapman is showing he won't be ready for several years. Why wouldn't Boras and Lee go for that? And then to have this offense behind him? Where would you rather live? The midwest or NYC?

I agree with BLEEDS that Jocketty and Castellini really want to stick it to the Cards. And the time is ripe to start taking this division yearly.

I still wish we could sign Arroyo too for like $8 to $10M per season. I think he's getting better with age and just eats innings that save our bullpen.

Lee
Arroyo
Leake
Cueto
Wood / Volquez

Let Harang walk. Trade Bailey.

And I understand all the excitement about Mesoraco. He has been disappointing his first several seasons and has come around this year, tearing up single A and doing alright in double A. But he isn't exactly tearing up double A. Yes, his defense is pretty impressive, but there is still no clear sign that he is going to make the majors. And we have Grandal coming behind him. And it's not like Hanigan is old or has played alot of innings.

I'm fine with about any trade to get Lee that doesn't include Wood or Heisey, as long as we sign Lee long term.

Pony Boy
07-08-2010, 10:01 AM
From MLBtraderumors.com:



And that probably tells you all you really need to know about scouts. LOL.

Yep, I could be wrong, but Alonso looks like a much, much safer bet to settle in as a middle of the rotation hitter at the MLB level than Francisco.

He is getting hot at the right time to salvage his trade value too. His OPS over the last 10 games is a healthy 1.211. It's Yonder's pitch to follow in the footsteps of his pal ARod and begin his career in Seattle.

Seattle has a golden opportunity to buy low on Yonder. I think that his value will never be this low again. If I am Seattle I ask for Yonder, Heisey and one of Joseph or Yorman. That would be a very nice package of high upside and relatively low risk guys.

brm7675
07-08-2010, 10:34 AM
Whatever we can offer Lee there are other teams that can offer more and longer term contracts. Trust me, Lee will end up on a team on the coast of the US.

ian_madden
07-08-2010, 11:58 AM
If we can get Lee for Either Yonder or Francisco and a lower level player, not the catchers or pitchers I would be very happy. If we can get Lee for Yonder and Francisco, I would be very happy. They get 2 cornerstones to build from, we get Lee down the stretch to "hopefully" get us to the series.

BLEEDS
07-08-2010, 11:59 AM
Agreed that alonso is the better chip. His defensive abilities project better in the AL a DH. Same for Juan. Trade them both of em & let SEA hope one can hit their ceiling of just below average at 1B 3B or LF while the other DH's.

Then throw in Maloney instead of Wood.
Maloney's fb tendencies play better anywhere outside of GABP.

If they want Mes then they get him instead of one of the other bats, and get a lesser pitcher.

We have the best bait to offer, and it's prerty much ALL expendable to us...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

ian_madden
07-08-2010, 12:00 PM
I Just read that Yonder is at the center of the talks. PLEASE let that happen, I don't see us losing that much. Yonder wasn't going to play that much anyway. But, if we trade him, we have to sign Votto for LIFE!!!!!!

Pony Boy
07-08-2010, 12:39 PM
I Just read that Yonder is at the center of the talks. PLEASE let that happen, I don't see us losing that much. Yonder wasn't going to play that much anyway. But, if we trade him, we have to sign Votto for LIFE!!!!!!

Where did you read that?

bgwilly31
07-08-2010, 12:56 PM
We've got a chance this year.

I say we trade everything but the kitchen sink to get lee in this rotation.

Bailey
Yonder
Wood
mez
heisey


Get him here and we have a serious chance of going to the series.

GIDP
07-08-2010, 12:58 PM
We've got a chance this year.

I say we trade everything but the kitchen sink to get lee in this rotation.

Bailey
Yonder
Wood
mez
heisey


Get him here and we have a serious chance of going to the series.

You just traded an injured guy and 4 of the Reds top 5 prospects for 15 or so starts. Are you sure you arent over reacting?

FlyerFanatic
07-08-2010, 01:00 PM
we dont have to give up much for lee, i think francisco, alonso and messeraco would prob do it. i'd feel perfectly fine giving those 3 up. again, i believe we could resign lee if we got him too.

GIDP
07-08-2010, 01:06 PM
Off the Table
Wood
Hesiey
Mesoraco
Hamilton
Y. Rodriquez

Everyone else is on the table with in reason. Nothing like 5 AAA guys. Yonder and Francisco + a pitching prospect around the lines of Maloney. It would be hard for the Mariners to say no to that I'd imagine beceause they probably arent getting offered that type of AAA level talent from others. If they turned something similar to that down then I say good luck and go after someone else.

redsfan_12
07-08-2010, 01:09 PM
I would be willing to give up Alonso to get Lee. I just wouldnt give up any 2, most definately 3 of Wood, Alonso, Heisey, and Mesoraco. I would get rid of Homer in a heartbeat.

FlyerFanatic
07-08-2010, 01:13 PM
mesoraco might have to go though, to put us over the top. mariners want a catching prospect in a big way.

GIDP
07-08-2010, 01:16 PM
mesoraco might have to go though, to put us over the top. mariners want a catching prospect in a big way.

Then they should look into trading Felix Hernandez.

brm7675
07-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Outside of Wood and Heisey heck the other three are a no brainer, but not sure any of those 3 match what the M's are wanting which is Major league ready talent.


Off the Table
Wood
Hesiey
Mesoraco
Hamilton
Y. Rodriquez

Everyone else is on the table with in reason. Nothing like 5 AAA guys. Yonder and Francisco + a pitching prospect around the lines of Maloney. It would be hard for the Mariners to say no to that I'd imagine beceause they probably arent getting offered that type of AAA level talent from others. If they turned something similar to that down then I say good luck and go after someone else.

Vottomatic
07-08-2010, 02:54 PM
I hope the Yankees hit Lee hard tonight and reduce Cliff's trade value. :D

GIDP
07-08-2010, 02:58 PM
I hope the Yankees hit Lee hard tonight and reduce Cliff's trade value. :D

I hope he doesnt start and winds up in Philly tomorrow in a Reds uniform.

brm7675
07-08-2010, 03:14 PM
you can take this to the bank, Cliff Lee will not be with the Reds tomorrow, next week or next month. He will either be a Twin/Angel or Met. I believe with Edinison doing pretty well Walt won't look to add Lee and go with our own talent, which in the long run is a smart move.


I hope he doesnt start and winds up in Philly tomorrow in a Reds uniform.

FlyerFanatic
07-08-2010, 03:15 PM
Outside of Wood and Heisey heck the other three are a no brainer, but not sure any of those 3 match what the M's are wanting which is Major league ready talent.

they arent going to get major league ready talent. they just are asking for that. teams are using the hes only a rental player argument to help reduce the costs. that and waiting until the deadline all brings costs down because the M's are going to have to get something, otherwise they are just gonna keep him and let him walk at the end of the season.

brm7675
07-08-2010, 03:23 PM
They will get a major league ready talent, trust me on that, the "need" is there and some team will crumble at that last moment and make that offer, and if they don't the M's will take the draft picks they will get if they don't sign him.


they arent going to get major league ready talent. they just are asking for that. teams are using the hes only a rental player argument to help reduce the costs. that and waiting until the deadline all brings costs down because the M's are going to have to get something, otherwise they are just gonna keep him and let him walk at the end of the season.

FlightRick
07-08-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm definitely in the "nobody is untouchable" camp, because if the offer is good enough, you give up what you have to in order to make it happen.

That said: this would be a 2-month rental of Cliff Lee. No if's, and's, or but's about it. It's a pretty nice deal that takes us from contending to make the playoffs to contending to go far in the playoffs. I'd like for that to happen, but I wouldn't do anything stupid for it too happen.

For me, I think it's worth it if you start with Alonso OR Francisco, and then play add on with 1 or 2 other players that meet the M's needs (1 other player if it's a Major League Ready guy, 2 others if they are prospects).

Alonso isn't as disposible as many make him out to be, because even though he's "blocked," 1B is also one position where the Reds have ZERO organizational depth. You can't just give away Votto's only real legit back-up without batting an eye; that said, 1B is a position where most organizations DO have depth and we can -- if necessary -- fill that void just behind Votto fairly easily via trade or FA. So I grudgingly give up Alonso if that's who the M's crave.

And Francisco? If that Morosi quote on the last page is true and most scouts think him a more attractive prospect than Alonso, then fine: he can be the centerpiece of this deal. He's got enormous upside, but he's also got Wily Mo downside, and he's got both at a position where the Reds have two other capable prospects who may be ready to relieve Rolen in the next 2 years. I don't WANT to lose the guy, but in this case, the return warrants the risk.

The M's seem to be highly interested in the high-ceiling bat, but will also need a near-MLB-ready SP to help fill the void left by Lee. Maloney would be my first offer as the next piece of the puzzle, but what I might prefer would be to make the third player we give up a higher-level prospect, in exchange for the M's taking a "Player to be Named Later."

In this case, we use the PTBNL because you can't trade a player who is on the disabled list. But I'd sure be fine with sending either Harang or Bailey their way once they get off the DL. If it's Harang, I really up the level of the 3rd player we send (since we'll be getting some salary relief this year, and also get out from under the ~$3 buyout we'd owe to ditch Harang this offseason). If they prefer Bailey, then we're more talking about a guy like Dorn or Dickerson or somebody like that who can and will play at the ML level but who also have Quadruple-A written all over them.

Ideally: Alsono/Francisco + PTBNL + Additonal Prospect
Still OK: Alonso/Francisco + Maloney + Additonal Prospect
Last Ditch Offer: Alonso/Francisco + Wood + Additional Prospect

If they start asking anything more than that, I start to get cold feet (or I start to ask for more in return than just 2 months of Lee). Afterall, even if we whiff on Lee, we've still got these chips and there are still guys like Oswalt and Haren on the table... I'll eat a bug if we can't work out an entirely more-palatable deal to get one of them than a deal to get Lee where we over-pay.


Rick

brm7675
07-08-2010, 04:13 PM
Couldn't disagree more with this statement, finding a good decent backup 1st basemen is much easier then trying to find great pitching. Heck Cario was doing a good job while Votto was out. I also disagree that "nobody' is untouchcable. I would list Wood/Leake/Chapman as UT. All 3 have incredible upside and youth on their side.


I'm definitely in the "nobody is untouchable" camp, because if the offer is good enough, you give up what you have to in order to make it happen.

Alonso isn't as disposible as many make him out to be, because even though he's "blocked," 1B is also one position where the Reds have ZERO organizational depth. You can't just give away Votto's only real legit back-up without batting an eye; that said, 1B is a position where most organizations DO have depth and we can -- if necessary -- fill that void just behind Votto fairly easily via trade or FA. So I grudgingly give up Alonso if that's who the M's crave.

Rick

No way I offer any of these 3. I would go Alsonso/Francisco and Malloney or Homer, but that would be my top offer.



Ideally: Alsono/Francisco + PTBNL + Additonal Prospect
Still OK: Alonso/Francisco + Maloney + Additonal Prospect
Last Ditch Offer: Alonso/Francisco + Wood + Additional Prospect


Rick

texasdave
07-08-2010, 04:27 PM
I try to stay away from trade talk speculation. I have no idea what is fair or not fair. Having seen plenty of trades that seem one-sided for one team go the other way, I just hope the Reds get the better of any trade they make.

BLEEDS
07-08-2010, 09:59 PM
NOBODY overvalues their prospects like the RedsFans on this board, it's remarkable.

After OVER A DECADE of despair, you'd think we've learned our lesson.

Anybody STILL think the Rolen trade was terrible?!? 80% of this board, and about 90% of tORG thought the pitcher we gave up - guy is so great his name escapes me right now - who was recently converted to a starter after years of relieving, was Cy Young potential.
I'd give up MORE for Rolen had I known he'd have this type of impact in the clubhouse, chemistry, etc (not to mention what having EdE NOT around did)), not even counting his comeback player of the year campaign he's putting up this year.

Prospects are a dime a dozen, sure some make it and some trades turn out to be stinker, but I think Walt has proven to be right WAY more than he's been wrong.

Wood is a BOR prospect, with a chance at a higher ceiling - just because he's been showcased in the Bigs (perhaps just for showing he is near/at ML ready) - doesn't make him untouchable.
He's a trading piece until he's proven, and then he's still a trading piece, just a more proven commodity of a trading piece.

I'll say again, if you can flip a BOR for a TOR guy you do it every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Given our current circumstances, you try to do it twice on every day and thrice on Sundays.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Griffey012
07-08-2010, 10:30 PM
NOBODY overvalues their prospects like the RedsFans on this board, it's remarkable.

After OVER A DECADE of despair, you'd think we've learned our lesson.

Anybody STILL think the Rolen trade was terrible?!? 80% of this board, and about 90% of tORG thought the pitcher we gave up - guy is so great his name escapes me right now - who was recently converted to a starter after years of relieving, was Cy Young potential.
I'd give up MORE for Rolen had I known he'd have this type of impact in the clubhouse, chemistry, etc (not to mention what having EdE NOT around did)), not even counting his comeback player of the year campaign he's putting up this year.

Prospects are a dime a dozen, sure some make it and some trades turn out to be stinker, but I think Walt has proven to be right WAY more than he's been wrong.

Wood is a BOR prospect, with a chance at a higher ceiling - just because he's been showcased in the Bigs (perhaps just for showing he is near/at ML ready) - doesn't make him untouchable.
He's a trading piece until he's proven, and then he's still a trading piece, just a more proven commodity of a trading piece.

I'll say again, if you can flip a BOR for a TOR guy you do it every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Given our current circumstances, you try to do it twice on every day and thrice on Sundays.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

And to build on that, how many of these deadline deals have really turned out to be completely horrible for the contending team, sure there's a Bagwell here and a Sizemore, Lee, Phillips deal. But Phillips was a bust for CLE and Lee nearly was. Let's ship some of our wealth out.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 01:55 AM
Flipping a BOR guy for a TOR guy only works if you can afford the TOR guy.

But I agree with what you're saying, basically.

texasdave
07-09-2010, 09:07 AM
Yankees go from no interest to heavy favorites seemingly overnight.
www.mlbtraderumors.com


The Yankees were 'on the brink' of acquiring Cliff Lee last night, according to Joel Sherman of the New York Post. Top catching prospect Jesus Montero would head to the Mariners in the potential deal. Seattle GM Jack Zduriencik wants to move quickly and has been in 'constant contact' with Yankees GM Brian Cashman over the course of the last week, according to Sherman. Other clubs remain involved, but the Yankees are the heavy favorite to acquire the lefty.

berryluther
07-09-2010, 09:30 AM
My feeling is if the Reds dont get him I want him in the AL

bellhead
07-09-2010, 09:47 AM
If he goes to the Yanks, then my hats off to them. Either them or Boston were going to sign him after this year anyway...

brm7675
07-09-2010, 10:15 AM
It's time for Walt to MAN up and get this deal done. Tell the M's that Wood/Leake are not available but that every other minor league is and even a few players on the major league roster (Stubbs/Homer).

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:18 AM
Whats awesome is that not only can the Yankees go out and trade for Cliff Lee they can go and sign a catcher if they ever need one.

Money being nothing is really frustrating.

Caveman Techie
07-09-2010, 10:26 AM
I would really love to see the Yankees have to compete in a system where there was a hard salary cap. They wouldn't be able to trade away all of their top prospects, with the knowledge that if they need to fill a spot all they have to do is just pay the top free agent.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:34 AM
Its the nature of the business. The only issue I have with the Yankees is that they are able to treat cash like prospects. They can afford to over pay guys. They can offer a guy 1 year extra on his deal, then if it doesnt work out they trade that guy eat half the salary and just act as if it was just no big deal. Its certainly frustrating to know that they can use money as more than just salaries.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 10:42 AM
On to Dan Haren or Roy Oswalt.

texasdave
07-09-2010, 11:00 AM
On to Dan Haren or Roy Oswalt.

If the Yankees do indeed trade for Cliff Lee, the Red Sox might very well respond in kind and pick off one of those two. That would not surprise me in the least.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 11:00 AM
Oswalt won't happen, he is WAY to expensive, Haren is a maybe, but really is he that big of an improvment then what we have?


On to Dan Haren or Roy Oswalt.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 11:02 AM
One good thing is we can stop all this crazy talk of having a trade of Alonso, Mesoraco, and Wood...

arkimadee
07-09-2010, 11:29 AM
according to sportscenter the Yankees deal with Cliff Lee "Just about done." This makes me sick as a dog. Other than the Cardinals getting him this is the worst thing that can happen. If the Reds didn't get him I was hoping that someone like the Rangers, Rays or Twins to get him to make the American League more competitive.. How do the Yankees continue to get good minor league players they can offer people in trade. Lets hope this deal does not happen.

Trace's Daddy
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
That sucks, I was hoping that if not the Reds, then the Rays so that they could better compete in the AL East.

redlegs7089
07-09-2010, 11:49 AM
at least cards didnt get him or any other nl team or that matter

GIDP
07-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Reds are smart for not going into a bidding war with the Yankees here. It is certainly a shame that the Yankees are able to go and trade for players just so other teams cant... Seriously thats exactly what this is.

texasdave
07-09-2010, 12:05 PM
Cliff Lee was going to pitch against the Yankees tonight, so they traded for him rather than face him. LOL. NYY is on pace to win 103 games and (if this trade goes down) will pick up one of the better pitchers in the majors without giving up anything from their active roster.

The Voice of IH
07-09-2010, 12:19 PM
Cliff Lee was going to pitch against the Yankees tonight, so they traded for him rather than face him. LOL. NYY is on pace to win 103 games and (if this trade goes down) will pick up one of the better pitchers in the majors without giving up anything from their active roster.

wow, what a disappointment.... But I am sure there are still people that feel that it is ok to have no salary cap in baseball. literally makes me want to puke.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 12:19 PM
I hope the entire Yankees team comes down with injuries. I hate them. I hate what they stand for.

No salary cap has ruined baseball. It's an uphill playing field. Reds, Pirates, Marlins at the bottom of the money hill and the Yankees at the top.

They're going to buy another World Championship.

I have ZERO respect for the Yankees organization.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 12:20 PM
guys its not like the Yankees, signed CC, Burnett, traded for Javy Vasquez, and Lee ...

texasdave
07-09-2010, 12:26 PM
...and signed Andy Pettitte as a FA. Although he did come up through the Yankees' organization; he was an Astro for three years before hooking back up with New York at a cool 16 million in 2007.

bigredmechanism
07-09-2010, 12:44 PM
Or A-rod and mark teixeira

GIDP
07-09-2010, 12:48 PM
or traded for Curtis Granderson, Nick Swisher,

Reds
07-09-2010, 12:59 PM
I would HOPE that they are shopping the offer around until it is inked. Reason would tell you it would take a ridiculous offer from the Reds or Rays (or other) for him to go somewhere else however.

lidspinner
07-09-2010, 01:03 PM
I hope the entire Yankees team comes down with injuries. I hate them. I hate what they stand for.

No salary cap has ruined baseball. It's an uphill playing field. Reds, Pirates, Marlins at the bottom of the money hill and the Yankees at the top.

They're going to buy another World Championship.

I have ZERO respect for the Yankees organization.


see, here is how I look at it.....If the Reds are not going to win the World Series, them I hope the Yankees win every one of them....I hope they win the next 10 in a row as long as they are not playing the Reds....nothing is ever going to change as long as the Yankees dont win it every year. The Yanks can keep buying there teams all they want, but the fact is there is more parity in Baseball then any other sport out there...even the NFL.

so unless the Yanks win it every year for a least 5 years, noone is gonna want change.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 01:13 PM
They could win it every year and baseball will never allow a salary limit or such the players won't approve it.


see, here is how I look at it.....If the Reds are not going to win the World Series, them I hope the Yankees win every one of them....I hope they win the next 10 in a row as long as they are not playing the Reds....nothing is ever going to change as long as the Yankees dont win it every year. The Yanks can keep buying there teams all they want, but the fact is there is more parity in Baseball then any other sport out there...even the NFL.

so unless the Yanks win it every year for a least 5 years, noone is gonna want change.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 01:17 PM
MLB has had 105 World Series
Yankees have played in 40 World Series
Yankees have won 27 World Series
Yankees have Lost 13 World Series
St. Louis has won 10 World Series

lidspinner
07-09-2010, 01:32 PM
we can throw numbers all day to prove our points...fact is, Baseball has parity...the top few in Baseball might be light years above the bottom few unlike in Football.....but overall, baseball has parity like no other.....Florida Marlins, Tampa Bay. Twins. Reds....the list goes on.....Yes the Yanks and all other top salary teams are always going to be at the top....Change is needed, and needed now.....but its not needed to create more parity.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 01:37 PM
8 teams have played in double digit world series
22 have played in less than 10
16 have played in 5 or less
13 have played in 2 or less
9 have played in 1 or less
3 have never played in a World Series

Some type of parity there...

Carin4Narron
07-09-2010, 02:07 PM
At least St.Louis didn't get Lee! Don't worry be happy!

Maker_84
07-09-2010, 03:01 PM
we can still beat them....

Kiss the Baby00
07-09-2010, 03:01 PM
see, here is how I look at it.....If the Reds are not going to win the World Series, them I hope the Yankees win every one of them....I hope they win the next 10 in a row as long as they are not playing the Reds....nothing is ever going to change as long as the Yankees dont win it every year. The Yanks can keep buying there teams all they want, but the fact is there is more parity in Baseball then any other sport out there...even the NFL.

so unless the Yanks win it every year for a least 5 years, noone is gonna want change.

maybe you misunderstand the word parity? NFL has the most parity of any sport in America

Reds
07-09-2010, 03:25 PM
"According to ESPN, the deal is about to be completed, with the only hold-up being a possible new suitor entering the equation. It's entirely possible that a team like the Tampa Bay Rays or Cincinnati Reds has jumped into the fray in an effort to try to acquire Lee. But, with all of the leg work that the Yankees have done on this trade, it seems like just a matter of time before the announcement becomes official."

JoseRijo059
07-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Maybe this isnt over yet. From Sherman, who originally reported it, via twitter :

@Joelsherman1

#Mariners have turned in a different direction and #Yankees do not believe they are in it now (more to come)

GIDP
07-09-2010, 03:49 PM
I'm honestly kind of scared to hear that.

Im really fearing that the Reds start going stupid.

JoseRijo059
07-09-2010, 03:52 PM
Who knows, Maybe the thought of 2 good bats like Alonso + Francisco close to the majors (which i wouldn't be too upset about) trumps 1 awesome bat to the Ms.

Pony Boy
07-09-2010, 03:55 PM
ESPN has announced that the Mariners will be revealing which team will get Cliff Lee tonight in an exclusive 1-hour special on ESPN. Jim Gray will host and the proceeds will go to the Boys & Girls Club of America. Tune in to ESPN at 6ET to find out.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 03:55 PM
Who knows, Maybe the thought of 2 good bats like Alonso + Francisco close to the majors (which i wouldn't be too upset about) trumps 1 awesome bat to the Ms.
That would be typical Seattle.

Biff Pocoroba
07-09-2010, 03:59 PM
hard to know what's real. It seems like Seattle leaked the thing about a deal being close to done to try to jack up offers from other teams. And it seems like the Yankees called the bluff by accusing Seattle of dragging its feet (in hopes of a sweeter offer from Yanks or another squad)

Pony Boy
07-09-2010, 03:59 PM
Who knows, Maybe the thought of 2 good bats like Alonso + Francisco close to the majors (which i wouldn't be too upset about) trumps 1 awesome bat to the Ms.

If the Reds are back in it. Big if. I would bet that Mez is a part of the offer. Walt is saying, "wouldnt you rather have a player that will actually stick at catcher?"

If you were the Mariners wouldnt you rather have Alonso and Mez, than Montero? That way you get your catcher and your mashing first baseman.

JoseRijo059
07-09-2010, 04:06 PM
Oh for sure big if. To top Montero, itd probably have to include a level of prospect we dont have.

But yeah, I could see the logic if they're really set on catcher.

1990REDS
07-09-2010, 04:06 PM
I'm honestly kind of scared to hear that.

Im really fearing that the Reds start going stupid.

What would you consider going stupid?

CySeymour
07-09-2010, 04:08 PM
ESPN has announced that the Mariners will be revealing which team will get Cliff Lee tonight in an exclusive 1-hour special on ESPN. Jim Gray will host and the proceeds will go to the Boys & Girls Club of America. Tune in to ESPN at 6ET to find out.

lol!!!! :beerme:

JoseRijo059
07-09-2010, 04:09 PM
Sherman saying Rangers are going hard after Lee.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:10 PM
What would you consider going stupid?

Mesoraco + Wood and some more.

Yonder + Frazier + Wood

Basically trading 3 of the top 10 prospects for a handful of starts. Scares me that they are going to offer something through the roof.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:11 PM
Sherman saying Rangers are going hard after Lee.

Looks like someone offered Justin Smoak...

Pony Boy
07-09-2010, 04:13 PM
Mesoraco + Wood and some more.

Yonder + Frazier + Wood

Basically trading 3 of the top 10 prospects for a handful of starts. Scares me that they are going to offer something through the roof.

Are you really that high on Frazier still? It wouldnt bother me a bit to lose Frazier.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:15 PM
Are you really that high on Frazier still? It wouldnt bother me a bit to lose Frazier.

Losing all 3 of them yes...

Would I trade Yonder or Frazier + some for Lee? Certainly.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Wood and Leake had better be "untouchable", no rental is worth that.


Mesoraco + Wood and some more.

Yonder + Frazier + Wood

Basically trading 3 of the top 10 prospects for a handful of starts. Scares me that they are going to offer something through the roof.

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 04:33 PM
Ken_Rosenthal

#Reds have spoken "extensively" to M's about Lee over last 48 hrs, source tells FOXSports.com's Jon Paul Morosi. #Rangers also in. #MLB

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Yea I dont know how they top the Yankees offer, but if they do I think I'm going to be sick honestly... Please dont go overboard Reds

Reds
07-09-2010, 04:37 PM
Ken_Rosenthal

#Reds have spoken "extensively" to M's about Lee over last 48 hrs, source tells FOXSports.com's Jon Paul Morosi. #Rangers also in. #MLB

I saw that too, I wonder if the conversation has progressed now beyond the preliminary exchanging of names.

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 04:38 PM
I saw that too, I wonder if the conversation has progressed now beyond the preliminary exchanging of names.

also interesting he said reds talking...then "rangers also in" everyone else is saying rangers, rangers, rangers...

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:38 PM
I saw that too, I wonder if the conversation has progressed now beyond the preliminary exchanging of names.

Given how Jocketty works I dont think anything is out of the realm. He keeps a tight ship and has always lurked in the shadows when making deals. He normally doesnt let much slip out.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 04:39 PM
I'm honestly kind of scared to hear that.

Im really fearing that the Reds start going stupid.

Reds have re-acquired Willy Taveras and Corey Patterson. They have made a "can't refuse" offer of Taveras, Patterson, Scott Hatteberg, Danny Ray Herrera, Corky Miller, Justin Lehr, Mike Lincoln, Aaron Harang's little brother, 1 AZL player, 1 Billings player, 1.5 Dayton players, 2.5 Lynchburg players, and our 44th round draft pick for the next 5 years...........for Cliff Lee, Ichiro, League, and Felix Hernandez.

Seattle is looking to dump payroll and is excited about the offer.

13 in hall
07-09-2010, 04:40 PM
Anyone as scared as I am wondering what Walt is going to give up? Because I will say this tomorrow Cliff Lee will be pitching for the Reds against Doc. but what on Earth will it cost!! Me is mucho scared!!

Pony Boy
07-09-2010, 04:40 PM
It's a safe bet that Lee will be traded before the Mariners take the field tonight at 10 ET. If we are the lucky winners of the sweepstakes, could he take the first plane in the morning to Philly to face Halladay in place of Travis Wood?

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:42 PM
Anyone as scared as I am wondering what Walt is going to give up? Because I will say this tomorrow Cliff Lee will be pitching for the Reds against Doc. but what on Earth will it cost!! Me is mucho scared!!

Im certainly worried considering what the Mariners have apparently turned down... Yonder + Francisco + Wood? I think Id cry. That seems like something that could go get someone who might not be as dominate as Lee but someone who could easily be here for more than 15-20 starts and still be VERY good.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 04:44 PM
This is absolutely nerve wracking. The Reds going "all-out" now to get this deal done ... I'm both excited and terrified as to what is going to happen now.

Its a good feeling.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 04:44 PM
I will be both sad and happy.

And I will keep a bird's eye on Wood's progress over the next few years. If he doesn't live up to expectations, it will be worth it.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:45 PM
I will be both sad and happy.

And I will keep a bird's eye on Wood's progress over the next few years. If he doesn't live up to expectations, it will be worth it.

If he's a 4.00 ERA or even a 4.25 ERA pitcher hes going to be worth it making the league minimum.

RiverRat13
07-09-2010, 04:46 PM
I'll be happy as long as Chapman, Mes, Yorman, and Heisey are not involved. Anyone else and I won't complain.

13 in hall
07-09-2010, 04:46 PM
Word from MLBTRaderumors.com is Reds are going "All Out' for Lee. I Think you may be right Cisco, Yonder, Travis man we had be be havibg a celebration come November.

Girevik
07-09-2010, 04:52 PM
According to Buster Olney "The Mariners expressed health concerns about the Yankees' second prospect in the deal, David Adams. They asked for others, and talks broke down from there"

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 04:54 PM
Cisco kid, was a friend of mine.

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Im not discounting that the offers arent as high as we think they are. Maybe there are packages being dicussed. Maybe the Reds are trying to get Lee and Brandon League or something.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 04:56 PM
According to Buster Olney "The Mariners expressed health concerns about the Yankees' second prospect in the deal, David Adams. They asked for others, and talks broke down from there"

Is Jim Bowden working for the Yankees now? :D

13 in hall
07-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Quick ? after the deal goes down will this side of the board be shut down so as not to cause the ORG to crash?

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 04:58 PM
i have learned deal done with #Rangers, Smoak and 3 others for Lee and reliever Mark Lowe #Rangers, #Mariners

Joelsherman1

Reds
07-09-2010, 04:59 PM
3:57pm: The Rangers will acquire Lee, according to Sherman. mlbtraderumors

GIDP
07-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Rangers :laugh:

reds_bengals1
07-09-2010, 05:00 PM
MLBtraderumors now says it's the Rangers who have him

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/yankees-may-be-close-to-acquiring-cliff-lee.html

GIDP
07-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Lee and a reliever to rangers apparently.

Reds
07-09-2010, 05:03 PM
apparently it was approved by MLB?

KOBasinger
07-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Time to move on it looks like :(

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 05:12 PM
move on haren?

1990REDS
07-09-2010, 05:13 PM
I would be curious to know what we were offering?

KOBasinger
07-09-2010, 05:20 PM
move on haren?

No thanks.

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 05:21 PM
No thanks.

no? really? wow

KOBasinger
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
no? really? wow

Haren, IMO, is no better than Arroyo at this point. I wouldn't mind trading for him but it depends who we give up.

FlyerFanatic
07-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Haren, IMO, is no better than Arroyo at this point. I wouldn't mind trading for him but it depends who we give up.

no better than arroyo? thats still pretty damn good. and i doubt it takes more than for lee. if walt was willing to go all in for lee, give up a little less for another arroyo

KOBasinger
07-09-2010, 05:27 PM
no better than arroyo? thats still pretty damn good. and i doubt it takes more than for lee. if walt was willing to go all in for lee, give up a little less for another arroyo

Ha yeah, pretty good but no use for another pitcher of that caliber..Lee was going to be dominant. No room for Haren here with Volquez coming back and Bailey in September.