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View Full Version : Is Votto the N.L. 1st half MVP?



Spitball
07-02-2010, 09:12 PM
I think so.

What does "most valuable" mean? To me, the most valuable player is the player who literally has the most value to his team. I don't believe the exact criteria for judging the most valuable player has the exact same application each year, but there are some basic standards I think must be reached.

First, the player's value isn't an exact statistical measure, but the numbers certainly weigh heavily into the factoring. Second, the player has to be consistently making significant offensive and defensive contributions to a winning team. Are there intangibles? I think so, but they will vary depending on the player and the team.

I look at his stats plus the team's improvement, and I believe he is the NL first half MVP. I'm not sure he is the inspirational leader or measures up with any unmeasurable criteria, but he seems the logical choice for the first half.

So, is Joey Votto the first half MVP?

dougdirt
07-02-2010, 09:21 PM
If he isn't, he has to be top 3-4.

Spitball
07-02-2010, 09:30 PM
I think he is clearly number one with Pujols a distant number two.

Tornon
07-02-2010, 09:37 PM
Ubaldo's gotta be in the discussion

RedsManRick
07-02-2010, 09:38 PM
Adrian Gonzalez might disagree considering the park differences, but yeah, Votto is right there.

Spitball
07-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Ubaldo's gotta be in the discussion

But, he will appear in about one fifth of his team's games. Can a starting pitcher really be the most valuable player? Steve Carlton won 27 games for a last place team. For me, there has to be more contribution to the everyday production of the team.


Adrian Gonzalez might disagree considering the park differences...

That is hard to disagree with, but I think the Padres are in first place because of their pitching and because of Bud Black's employment of that bullpen. Obviously, Gonzalez is basically carrying the offensive load virtually by himself. Still, Gonzalez OPS is .796 when the Pads are ahead and .940 when they are behind. Could this indicate the Padres are really about pitching? Is Gonzalez's hitting really the major factor in the Padres' winning equation?

Falls City Beer
07-02-2010, 10:33 PM
Yes.

VR
07-02-2010, 10:58 PM
Rolen is my Reds MVP for the 1st half.

Spitball
07-02-2010, 10:59 PM
Yes.

To what?

Is Votto the N.L. 1st half MVP?

Can a starting pitcher really be the most valuable player?

Is Gonzalez's hitting really the major factor in the Padres' winning equation?

Spitball
07-02-2010, 11:02 PM
Rolen is my Reds MVP for the 1st half.

I really can't disagree with this statement. With Rolen, the Reds have been a much better team. He has been the MVP, but I can't exactly justify him over Votto.

westofyou
07-02-2010, 11:02 PM
Rolen is my Reds MVP for the 1st half.

Yep, bigger impact IMO, solidified the left side of the infield for the first time since Barry was around and provided a big RH middle of the order bat on team that has been flush with LH bats for quite some time.

Scrap Irony
07-02-2010, 11:07 PM
I'd vote Gonzalez, personally. He's been the only bat for a first place Padre team that worth anything.

Votto and Rolen would earn my second and third place MVP spots, with Pujols fourth and Phillips fifth.

VR
07-02-2010, 11:09 PM
It's a good problem to have....deciding which Red should be 1st half MVP.

TheNext44
07-02-2010, 11:31 PM
Yep, bigger impact IMO, solidified the left side of the infield for the first time since Barry was around and provided a big RH middle of the order bat on team that has been flush with LH bats for quite some time.

Think of it this way. Replace Votto with a league average 1B, and the Reds are around 3-4 games worse. Replace Rolen with a league average 3b and the Reds are at least 10 games worse.

Rolen plays a harder position to replace with MVP type talent, and his being on the team and in the order has made Bruce, Phillips, Gomes, and pretty much everyone better.

You can't measure just the production that Rolen provides to this team with just his numbers. His presences raises nearly everyone else's numbers as well, and that isn't nearly as much the case with Votto.

reds1869
07-02-2010, 11:32 PM
It's a good problem to have....deciding which Red should be 1st half MVP.

Indeed. Rolen is, in my opinion, the piece that makes this team what it is. From the moment he first donned a Reds uniform this team has been different. Chemistry isn't quantifiable but I think there is something to it. Votto is having a whale of a season and by the traditional MVP criteria would get the nod. As you said, it is a good problem to have.

dougdirt
07-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Think of it this way. Replace Votto with a league average 1B, and the Reds are around 3-4 games worse. Replace Rolen with a league average 3b and the Reds are at least 10 games worse.


I just can't believe that. At all. Scott Rolen isn't a 30 win player, which is basically what you are suggesting if he is 10 games better than league average in 81 games.

Blitz Dorsey
07-03-2010, 12:16 AM
Well, you're asking Reds fans, but yes, in this Reds' fan's opinion, he certainly is.

I can't believe we're sitting here at the halfway mark and Joey Votto has BETTER numbers than Albert Pujols.

Blitz Dorsey
07-03-2010, 12:19 AM
Yeah, let's not get in a Votto v Rolen discussion. That's like trying to pick between your mom and dad. Or pick your favorite child.

paulrichjr
07-03-2010, 12:19 AM
I just can't believe that. At all. Scott Rolen isn't a 30 win player, which is basically what you are suggesting if he is 10 games better than league average in 81 games.

Did Rolen bring this?

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100702&content_id=11836120&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin
"They have the look of a team that has a lot of momentum, a lot of energy, a lot of positive energy," Hill said. "You see that when they come on the field, you see that in their style of play. They look like they believe in themselves. Just watching them go about their business and the at-bats they have, if you didn't know their record, you'd think they were a team competing for first place."

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 12:27 AM
I just can't believe that. At all. Scott Rolen isn't a 30 win player, which is basically what you are suggesting if he is 10 games better than league average in 81 games.

But that's my point. He is a 30 win player, because he makes some many other players better. You can't just count his production, you have to count the extra production you get from everyone else who is better because he is on the team.

This is where you have to go beyond the spreadsheet and think of the big picture.

Rolen is not on the Reds. But some league average 3B is, say Pedro Feliz. I haven't checked his numbers so he may better than league average or worse, but assume he's league average.

Feliz bats 7th. and plays solid defense.

Phillips still bats cleanup.
Stubbs still bats leadoff
Bruce has no one to take the pressure off of him, no one to watch to see how to go about the day to day of being a major league player, and hits with fewer runners on base and less protection.
Votto bats with less protection and more pressure.
Gomes bats with fewer runners on base.
Hanigan/Hernandez bats with fewer runners on base... and so on, and so on, and so on....

That's worth at least 10 wins right there.

Now replace Votto with Prince Fielder, or Ryan Howard, or some other 1B whose is league average (again, I'm not saying they are, just coming up with names off the top of my head.)

The team stays exactly the same except the Reds get around 2-3 wins less production from 1B and the 3 slot.

That is why Rolen is more valuable, and by a lot. It's a completely different team with him than without him.

dougdirt
07-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Never going to buy into that. At all. Does he bring something 'extra'? Sure, he does. It surely isn't worth 20-25 wins versus anyone that a team would actually run out there, much less over league average.

fearofpopvol1
07-03-2010, 12:57 AM
Votto's numbers are actually better than Pujols'. Votto has been 3.5 WAR. Pujols has been 3.1 and Pujols has 4 more games player than Votto too.

If you want to look strictly at WAR, David Wright (3.7 WAR) is the MVP with Votto a very close second (3.5 WAR). Oddly enough, Holliday has been worth more to the Cards this year than Pujols has been. Scott Rolen is actually ranked 7th in WAR in the NL. Phillips is ranked 11th in the NL.

That's pretty incredible when you think about it...the Reds have #2, #7 and #11 for the leaders in WAR in the NL.

HeatherC1212
07-03-2010, 01:30 AM
If I had to rank the Reds on who is their MVP for the first half, I would put them in this order (and this is from the biggest Joey fan on this board):

1. Scott Rolen
2. Joey Votto (very close between him and Scott though)
3. Arthur Rhodes (where would we be without him?)
4. Brandon Phillips (offense and defense)
5. Jonny Gomes (RBI machine and energy for clubhouse)

Just my humble opinion of course. :)

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 02:13 AM
Never going to buy into that. At all. Does he bring something 'extra'? Sure, he does. It surely isn't worth 20-25 wins versus anyone that a team would actually run out there, much less over league average.

The Reds are on pace to win 105 games this year. Last year they won 78.

That's 27 extra wins. The only major addition is Rolen. Cabrera is new, but not providing much production, but let's say he adds 2 wins on his own. Stubbs is new, but like Cabrera is not the reason why the Reds are winning 27 more games this year. He adds maybe 3 wins, since Taveras was so terrible. Leake adds maybe 3 wins. Bullpen is worse. take away 2 wins. Same players everywhere else. Some are healthier, so add 3 wins for that. That leaves 18 wins for Rolen.

Another way to look at is that the Reds are on pace to score 237 more runs this year than last. Say Cabrera adds 10 more runs, Stubbs 20 more runs. All the other major players are the same except for Rolen. That's 207 more runs that he seems to add, by making everyone else better.

I am very confident that if you put in a third base man that just put up decent numbers, but couldn't hit fourth, and couldn't lead by example and provide the Veteran leadership that Rolen has so far, that the Reds would be around .500 at best.

Homer Bailey
07-03-2010, 03:01 AM
The Reds are on pace to win 105 games this year. Last year they won 78.

That's 27 extra wins. The only major addition is Rolen. Cabrera is new, but not providing much production, but let's say he adds 2 wins on his own. Stubbs is new, but like Cabrera is not the reason why the Reds are winning 27 more games this year. He adds maybe 3 wins, since Taveras was so terrible. Leake adds maybe 3 wins. Bullpen is worse. take away 2 wins. Same players everywhere else. Some are healthier, so add 3 wins for that. That leaves 18 wins for Rolen.

Another way to look at is that the Reds are on pace to score 237 more runs this year than last. Say Cabrera adds 10 more runs, Stubbs 20 more runs. All the other major players are the same except for Rolen. That's 207 more runs that he seems to add, by making everyone else better.

I am very confident that if you put in a third base man that just put up decent numbers, but couldn't hit fourth, and couldn't lead by example and provide the Veteran leadership that Rolen has so far, that the Reds would be around .500 at best.

Using what calculation are the Reds on pace to win 105 games???

I'm not well schooled on the whole runs provided/allowed formulas, but I'm going to guess that many more stat minded people will disagree strongly with your rating of Rolen.

Don't get me wrong. I love Scott and I think his affect on this team is immeasurable numerically because he has helped changed the culture in the clubhouse. But to assign all of the improvement to him would be inaccurate IMO.

dougdirt
07-03-2010, 03:07 AM
The Reds are on pace to win 105 games this year. Last year they won 78.

That's 27 extra wins. The only major addition is Rolen. Cabrera is new, but not providing much production, but let's say he adds 2 wins on his own. Stubbs is new, but like Cabrera is not the reason why the Reds are winning 27 more games this year. He adds maybe 3 wins, since Taveras was so terrible. Leake adds maybe 3 wins. Bullpen is worse. take away 2 wins. Same players everywhere else. Some are healthier, so add 3 wins for that. That leaves 18 wins for Rolen.

Another way to look at is that the Reds are on pace to score 237 more runs this year than last. Say Cabrera adds 10 more runs, Stubbs 20 more runs. All the other major players are the same except for Rolen. That's 207 more runs that he seems to add, by making everyone else better.

I am very confident that if you put in a third base man that just put up decent numbers, but couldn't hit fourth, and couldn't lead by example and provide the Veteran leadership that Rolen has so far, that the Reds would be around .500 at best.
The Reds are on pace for 92 wins, not 105.

As for the Reds improvement, some of it is Rolen. Some of it is Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Rhodes, Phillips and Mike Leake all being better than the guys at their positions last year too.

And I really can't believe you just tried to suggest that one player was worth 200+ runs to the offense. You really don't believe that do you?

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 03:38 AM
The Reds are on pace for 92 wins, not 105.

As for the Reds improvement, some of it is Rolen. Some of it is Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Rhodes, Phillips and Mike Leake all being better than the guys at their positions last year too.

And I really can't believe you just tried to suggest that one player was worth 200+ runs to the offense. You really don't believe that do you?

Sorry for the bad math, did it in my head, literally forgot to carry the one. lol

And you are missing my point completely.

Scott Rolen is responsible for whatever runs he personally provides above whatever his replacement would naturally be.

However...

Having him on the team makes other players better. Having him on the team, adds around 5 to 15 runs more per player for probably everyone in the starting lineup. And his calming effect on the infield has helped the pitchers. It's a domino effect. Scott Rolen doesn't personally add 200 runs to the team, but his presence does.

We all get caught up in WAR and Wins per player, but those are just constructions we create to help us better understand the game. They make it easy for us to attach a number to a player to better understand his personal production. But they don't take into account situations. They work in the abstract. They only tell us a guy with these numbers on average, will produce X number of runs/wins for his team. The tell us nothing about the full impact that player has on the team as a whole, and the other players on the team individually.

Let's use a car as an analogy. The car normally would last 8 years with limited service. But if you simply change the oil on time and keep the air pressure level right all the time, you can add another 4 years to your car's age, or there a bouts. Changing the oil and keeping the tire pressure has a little direct effect on the health of your car, and directly would only add maybe a year. But it has many side effects, like getting better milage, less wear and tear on most of the parts in the engine, better alignment, better performance of each part... Each of these add another six months or so, and combined they all add another 4 years.

Adding Rolen to the team is like making sure you car get's its regular services on time. The actual service doesn't do much, but it make the other parts of the car work better.

nemesis
07-03-2010, 04:33 AM
The Reds are on pace for 92 wins, not 105.

As for the Reds improvement, some of it is Rolen. Some of it is Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Rhodes, Phillips and Mike Leake all being better than the guys at their positions last year too.

And I really can't believe you just tried to suggest that one player was worth 200+ runs to the offense. You really don't believe that do you?

Actually if you do the math since the 7 and 11 start the Reds are 39 - 24. A 62% Win percentage.

If that winning percentage continues over the last 81 games they will win 50 more games ending up with 96 Wins. Keeping in mind Volquez, Hanigan, Bailey are all due back in less that 30 days, A vastly improved bullpen without DRH or Lincoln and with a League Avg Massett since April, should be enough to get the Reds to 90 without blinking.

Jpup
07-03-2010, 06:48 AM
I'd have to go with Rolen.

BCubb2003
07-03-2010, 07:47 AM
I'm torn. MVP is such a team-dependent thing. That's why it provokes so much debate. Is a great player on a great team (they could do well without them) more valuable than good player that puts a good team over the top (but how close would the team have been without the other good players)? What about a great player on a last-place team? (They could finish last without him?)

First base is usually an easier position to fill. But what if the Reds had Rolen at third and Cairo at first?

Razor Shines
07-03-2010, 07:58 AM
First base is usually an easier position to fill. But what if the Reds had Rolen at third and Cairo at first?


It'd be time to put the kids to bed because things are about to get ugly.

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm torn. MVP is such a team-dependent thing. That's why it provokes so much debate. Is a great player on a great team (they could do well without them) more valuable than good player that puts a good team over the top (but how close would the team have been without the other good players)? What about a great player on a last-place team? (They could finish last without him?)

First base is usually an easier position to fill. But what if the Reds had Rolen at third and Cairo at first?

There is about a six win difference between Votto and Cairo, over a full season. But that would never be the choice for any extended period of time. If Votto was out for longer than a month, I'm pretty sure the Reds would go get a decent replacement if they didn't have one in house. At least I hope so.

kaldaniels
07-03-2010, 09:56 AM
I'm gonna go there...

I think WAR is a good stat. I think it does a good job of ranking players in a pretty good order of how important they are. That said I don't agree that one should..act like the number given is the actual number of wins a player is worth. Its a pretend number and the question of truly how many wins is a player worth is one that will never be answered. JMHO.

dougdirt
07-03-2010, 10:25 AM
However...

Having him on the team makes other players better. Having him on the team, adds around 5 to 15 runs more per player for probably everyone in the starting lineup. And his calming effect on the infield has helped the pitchers. It's a domino effect. Scott Rolen doesn't personally add 200 runs to the team, but his presence does.


No, it really doesn't. I am sure Scott Rolen does have an effect on the team playing better and most of it certainly comes from his actual ability to be a very good third baseman. Very little of it has to do with 8-9 other players all playing better than they did last year.

pahster
07-03-2010, 10:29 AM
I'm gonna go there...

I think WAR is a good stat. I think it does a good job of ranking players in a pretty good order of how important they are. That said I don't agree that one should..act like the number given is the actual number of wins a player is worth. Its a pretend number and the question of truly how many wins is a player worth is one that will never be answered. JMHO.

It's an estimate and as we get better at measuring performance (especially defensive performance) it'll become more accurate.

dougdirt
07-03-2010, 10:30 AM
It's an estimate and as we get better at measuring performance (especially defensive performance) it'll become more accurate.

Correct.... and right now, WAR is pretty darn accurate when compared with actual team wins. It isn't perfect (what is?), but its very close.

VR
07-03-2010, 11:07 AM
The more I've chewed on this thread, the more I've realized how important Scott is for his work at third base. As WOY said, we haven't had this type of player since Buddy Bell.....which is 25 years. I think it every time I see a ball that he makes look so easy....yet watch the replay and see it's because of his positioning, quick first step, or tremedous arm. He doesn't make the diving stab, roll, jump up and throw the guy out anymore.....but he's Pablo Picasso with the leather over there.
Votto's defense at 1st is possibly below league average....as there are so many very good glove men over there. (I'm very happy w/ JV's overall D, as he's worked very hard to improve....he's just not there yet)
I don't think Phillips was kidding when he mentioned Rolens' impact during the postgame show yesterday.

cincrazy
07-03-2010, 11:07 AM
Rolen is my Reds MVP for the 1st half.

Ditto.

RFS62
07-03-2010, 11:32 AM
For numbers, it's Votto.

For intangibles, impossible to measure, but noticed by many in the way the players go about their business since he got here, Rolen.

Chemistry is like pornography, hard to define but recognizable when you see it.

How much is it worth? Perhaps more to a team in dire need of it. Wouldn't make as much difference if he came to a team flush in leaders.

Jocketty and Baker believe in this stuff. I think it's had a lot to do with the teams performance. Of course, talent is always the determining factor. But getting guys to play hard and smart and confident, that's worth a lot. A whole lot.

VR
07-03-2010, 11:39 AM
Chemistry is like pornography, hard to define but recognizable when you see it.



And there you have it.

Thank you Socrates62.

Spitball
07-03-2010, 01:20 PM
For numbers, it's Votto.

For intangibles, impossible to measure, but noticed by many in the way the players go about their business since he got here, Rolen.

Chemistry is like pornography, hard to define but recognizable when you see it.

How much is it worth? Perhaps more to a team in dire need of it. Wouldn't make as much difference if he came to a team flush in leaders.

Jocketty and Baker believe in this stuff. I think it's had a lot to do with the teams performance. Of course, talent is always the determining factor. But getting guys to play hard and smart and confident, that's worth a lot. A whole lot.

Nice...:beerme:

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 02:42 PM
No, it really doesn't. I am sure Scott Rolen does have an effect on the team playing better and most of it certainly comes from his actual ability to be a very good third baseman. Very little of it has to do with 8-9 other players all playing better than they did last year.

This is where we disagree.

I am convinced that if the Reds had not acquired Scott Rolen, that Bruce, Phillips, Gomes, Hanigan, Cueto, Leake and even Votto, would not be producing at the exceptional level they have been producing at this season. All would be better, but they are all even better than normal, because of Rolen.

The world is a dynamic place, events and people do not exist in a vacuum. Every action has mulitiple reactions and side effects. I just think that the act of adding Rolen to this team has had an exceptional and rare effect on this team of making nearly everyone else better.

TheNext44
07-03-2010, 02:47 PM
I'm gonna go there...

I think WAR is a good stat. I think it does a good job of ranking players in a pretty good order of how important they are. That said I don't agree that one should..act like the number given is the actual number of wins a player is worth. Its a pretend number and the question of truly how many wins is a player worth is one that will never be answered. JMHO.

Exactly. It's a great stat, IMHO. But by design, it treats every player as if they play in a vacuum, and again by design, ignores actual situations. This makes it more accurate in detemining what each player produces by himself, but is not capable of figuring out the effect certain players have on other players and the team as a whole.

Mario-Rijo
07-03-2010, 04:01 PM
The more I've chewed on this thread, the more I've realized how important Scott is for his work at third base. As WOY said, we haven't had this type of player since Buddy Bell.....which is 25 years. I think it every time I see a ball that he makes look so easy....yet watch the replay and see it's because of his positioning, quick first step, or tremedous arm. He doesn't make the diving stab, roll, jump up and throw the guy out anymore.....but he's Pablo Picasso with the leather over there.
Votto's defense at 1st is possibly below league average....as there are so many very good glove men over there. (I'm very happy w/ JV's overall D, as he's worked very hard to improve....he's just not there yet)
I don't think Phillips was kidding when he mentioned Rolens' impact during the postgame show yesterday.

I know this isn't the topic but I just want to disagree with that bolded statement. Below league average, can't get behind that at all. He's just not there yet? Again wholeheartedly, you can count on one hand the mistakes he has made over there, in fact he has 2 errors and I only recall one "boneheaded" play (that wasn't an error) over there all season so far (cut off a ball from the cutoff man that would have thrown out a run). In addition he handles all plays extremely well. Just not sure what would make you say any of that.

But IMO Rolen is the MVP despite the fact he has had quite a few days off to keep him fresh. He has provided alot of offense at critical times as well, even moreso than Joey. It's a tight contest but yeah I'd go with Rolen.

VR
07-03-2010, 04:44 PM
I know this isn't the topic but I just want to disagree with that bolded statement. Below league average, can't get behind that at all. He's just not there yet? Again wholeheartedly, you can count on one hand the mistakes he has made over there, in fact he has 2 errors and I only recall one "boneheaded" play (that wasn't an error) over there all season so far (cut off a ball from the cutoff man that would have thrown out a run). In addition he handles all plays extremely well. Just not sure what would make you say any of that.

But IMO Rolen is the MVP despite the fact he has had quite a few days off to keep him fresh. He has provided alot of offense at critical times as well, even moreso than Joey. It's a tight contest but yeah I'd go with Rolen.

Because the NL has several 1B who are better fielders at this point than Votto. He may (most likely will) develop into one.....but he's not there yet. And that's OK. He's made significant strides to become a solid 1B.

3 years from now, he'll take the easy DP on the grounder to end the inning as opposed to throwing home. It was a good, solid play, but the better play was getting out of the inning w/ the DP, as Rolen did a couple days ago.

Knowing that the easier play was in hand is the type of play that will make him great some day.

Mario-Rijo
07-03-2010, 05:26 PM
Because the NL has several 1B who are better fielders at this point than Votto. He may (most likely will) develop into one.....but he's not there yet. And that's OK. He's made significant strides to become a solid 1B.

3 years from now, he'll take the easy DP on the grounder to end the inning as opposed to throwing home. It was a good, solid play, but the better play was getting out of the inning w/ the DP, as Rolen did a couple days ago.

Knowing that the easier play was in hand is the type of play that will make him great some day.

If you are referring to a play in todays game I missed the 1st 5 innings or so and scarcely caught the rest of it. But I haven't seen him make many poor plays and frankly I don't know there is truly better fielders than he at this point. D. Lee and Pujols have better reps, maybe someone could make a case for them but I don't know anyone else actually qualifies as someone who is easily better than Votto.

VR
07-03-2010, 05:49 PM
If you are referring to a play in todays game I missed the 1st 5 innings or so and scarcely caught the rest of it. But I haven't seen him make many poor plays and frankly I don't know there is truly better fielders than he at this point. D. Lee and Pujols have better reps, maybe someone could make a case for them but I don't know anyone else actually qualifies as someone who is easily better than Votto.

Just opinions at this point....

membengal
07-04-2010, 07:37 AM
Man VR, I fully disagree about your take on Votto on that play. To get that DP required knowing that Cueto could sprint to 1b and be ready to take the return throw in time. Dicey.

He cut down the lead run with a superlative throw while on the move. Hard for me to second-guess that.

As a former amatuer 1b, that was NOT an easy DP that he passed up. At all.

oneupper
07-04-2010, 08:52 AM
Votto vs. Rolen first half 2010 reminds me of Perez vs. Bench first half 1970.

Tony was way ahead numbers-wise at mid-season, but in the end Bench took the trophy.

Scrap Irony
07-04-2010, 11:26 AM
Good call, oneupper. I can definitely get behind that.

VR
07-04-2010, 11:31 AM
Man VR, I fully disagree about your take on Votto on that play. To get that DP required knowing that Cueto could sprint to 1b and be ready to take the return throw in time. Dicey.

He cut down the lead run with a superlative throw while on the move. Hard for me to second-guess that.

As a former amatuer 1b, that was NOT an easy DP that he passed up. At all.

Hey, me too!

It was a play the great players don't hesitate on.....much like Rolens the other day.

(Cueto was in full sprint to first btw)


As I said, it was still a very good play and I don't fault Votto at all for making it. 2 years ago he would have thrown it into the stands.

RedsManRick
07-04-2010, 12:49 PM
There's no way Votto was the 1st-half MVP. I mean, he's not even an all-star.

reds1869
07-04-2010, 12:51 PM
There's no way Votto was the 1st-half MVP. I mean, he's not even an all-star.

:D

I wondered who would be first to make the comment ESPN will be using in their "debate" over the MVP Award.

11larkin11
07-04-2010, 12:57 PM
Votto is about to go on an absolute tear to the likes that none of us have ever seen before, or go through a prolonged gigantic slump.

If its the former, bye bye Cardinals.

Screwball
07-04-2010, 07:47 PM
:D

I wondered who would be first to make the comment ESPN will be using in their "debate" over the MVP Award.

Kruk said a couple of times on Baseball Tonight he's got Votto as his 1st half MVP. I know Kruk's opinion carries about as much weight as my grandma's, but still...

blumj
07-04-2010, 08:13 PM
Kruk said a couple of times on Baseball Tonight he's got Votto as his 1st half MVP. I know Kruk's opinion carries about as much weight as my grandma's, but still...

Somebody who isn't Kruk said the same on MLBN, I forget who. Tom Caron said it to Peter Gammons on the Red Sox post game, and Gammons said he was one of them.