Phillips, Rolen, Rhodes Make All-Star Game

[Redsfan320]

I say Votto & Phillips. And Rhodes.

Also, all stats are from ESPN.

320

[RedLegSuperStar]

Votto, Phillips, Rhodes, & Cueto

[CarolinaRedleg]

Votto, Phillips, Rolen, Rhodes

[HeatherC1212]

Joey, Brandon, Scott, and Arthur (and if Joey isn't named tomorrow, you KNOW I will not be a happy camper :rant: )

[Redsfan320]

IMO, there's no way Joey's not taken. It would be a crime. For Rhodes it wouldn't be fair either, but I understand the whole non-starter or closer thing (not that I like it). Phillips and Rolen really have to be in there too. They all very much deserve to be all-stars, but something tells me those making the team will not want 4 guys from a team with a decade like we've had. :(

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[RBA]

Only Scott Rolen. Not saying others don't deserve it.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Phillips, Votto, Rolen

[HeatherC1212]

I'm sorry but if there is EVER a year when we finally deserve to have more than one All Star, it's this year. We can't control the starters because our fan base isn't huge but there is no reason for a first place team...a team that's playing well, that most folks had as a sleeper pick this year, that finally seems to be turning things around, that's also been getting much more media attention...there is absolutely no reason for them NOT to have more than one All Star named tomorrow. I think the players selections will be quite interesting this year (I can easily see the players voting for a few of our guys, mainly Joey and Scott with an outside shot for Arthur) and Charlie Manuel's decisions will be interesting as well. I will honestly be a little stunned and pretty upset if the Reds don't have at least three guys named to that team. That would be so disappointing for them although the players probably won't care as much as the fans. I think it would almost be a slap in the face for the Reds to only have one All Star this year when several of them have had such strong seasons so far and really deserve it. :(

/end rant and maybe I'm naive about the whole thing, but if the Orioles, who also haven't won for a long time, can get FOUR guys on the All Star team like they did five years ago when they were having a great first half (the four guys were Roberts, Mora, Tejada, and BJ Ryan), then certainly we can have three or four of our guys on the team this year too

[BCubb2003]

Votto and Rhodes. The others deserve it, but won't get noticed.

[KronoRed]

Only Scott Rolen. Not saying others don't deserve it.

Agreed, and to me it's a good thing our guys get 3 days off and not risk injury in this joke of a baseball game.

[VR]

Votto and Rolen should be locks....no brainers.

I think Phillips has a chance to squeek in there as well.

[Captain Hook]

Utley's injury should get Phillips in.Votto and Rolen should be locks I agree.

Nothing written in stone yet but if those three do get in anyone know the last time the Reds had that many playing in the All-Stars game?

[TheNext44]

there really aren't a bunch of solid All Stars at SS this year, and an overabundance of 2B All Star candidates. Torre might go with one less SS and one more 2B because of that, especially a 2B who has played SS. That could help Phillips.

[toledodan]

Votto, Phillips, Rolen, Rhodes


thats my picks as well.

[fearofpopvol1]

there really aren't a bunch of solid All Stars at SS this year, and an overabundance of 2B All Star candidates. Torre might go with one less SS and one more 2B because of that, especially a 2B who has played SS. That could help Phillips.

Charlie Manuel decides, not Torre.

With that said...I think without a doubt, based on numbers, it SHOULD be Votto, Rolen and Phillips.

I think Rolen (especially with Polanco out) and Votto stand a good chance. I didn't think Phillips did before, but with Utley going out he might get in now.

[membengal]

If there's justice, Votto/Rolen/Phillips.

Because there is no justice:

Rolen/Phillips with Votto hosed.

[RedLegSuperStar]

I forgot Rolen.. So Votto, Rolen, Phillips, Cueto, & Rhodes

[Razor Shines]

If there's justice, Votto/Rolen/Phillips.

Because there is no justice:

Rolen/Phillips with Votto hosed.

Man, you really think it's possible for Manuel to leave Votto off the team? I just can't fathom how he could be left off. Votto and Rolen have to be sure things, IMO. I think Phillips should be there, but I could see Uggla getting picked over him because his counting stats look better.

[membengal]

Pujols voted in, and I don't think there is any way that Manuel doesn't take his own guy Howard.

If they only take one more first baseman, then, yes, I worry a bit. Adrian Gonzalez has the numbers and Fielder has the name.

If it's me, Votto is already packing his bags, but I am used to the Reds getting hosed in this process, so, yeah, until Votto's name is called, I won't be resting easy on the matter.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Personally, I feel it should be Votto, Rhodes, Rolen, Phillips and one Reds pitcher (not sure who among Cueto & Leake). But I can easily see right now that Brandon's going to get ignored. And after his 3 earned runs outing, I won't be surprised if Arthur gets blown off too. I sure do hope I'm wrong though.

2B...Prado, Utley and maybe even Weeks. I personally feel Brandon's ahead of all of them, but many non-reds fans don't feel the same.

1B...Pujols, Howard, Gonzalez, Dunn, Fielder. Again, I think Joey's better than all of them, but with this many TOP QUALITY first sackers...it's not out of the realm of possibility to see Joey get snubbed because he doesn't have that name recognition yet.

3B...Polanco, Wright, Zimmerman, McGehee, Sandoval. Only Wright really stacks up with Scott here, but depending on whether some teams get shutout of All Stars, someone unexpected could get picked over Scott.

Simply put, while there SHOULD be some locks for the Reds...there just aren't. At least not from the national viewpoint. The injury situation muddles things quite a bit though. I've heard several sources state that some of these injured guys will be ready JUST in time for the game.



~edit~ I knew it. What did I say? Regardless of his stats...they took the "names". Garbage.

[NJReds]

With Polanco and Utley on the DL, I can't see how Phillips and Rolen get left off. Especially with the Reds in first place. Votto is an obvious choice as well.

[blumj]

Pujols voted in, and I don't think there is any way that Manuel doesn't take his own guy Howard.

If they only take one more first baseman, then, yes, I worry a bit. Adrian Gonzalez has the numbers and Fielder has the name.

If it's me, Votto is already packing his bags, but I am used to the Reds getting hosed in this process, so, yeah, until Votto's name is called, I won't be resting easy on the matter.

Remember, they have DH to fill, too. And from now on, they changed it so they're going to keep using the DH in the ASG no matter where the game is.

[PuffyPig]

Votto, Phillips and Rolen certainly deserve to go, as does Rhodes. But I doubt all 4 make it.

None of the Reds starting pitchers deserve to go, not even close. And with many more deserving players that should go, none has any chance of making it.

[Homer Bailey]

There is no way Votto gets hosed this year. It just isn't possible, especially the way he played in front of Manuel. I'll sig bet anyone that thinks Votto is not going to be an all-star.

Edit: wow. Just wow.

[RBA]

Not unexpected. No Reds voted in to start.

[RBA]

Martin Prado replaces Chase Utley.


NAME TEAM P AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS SF SH OBP OPS SLG AVG
M. Prado ATL 2B 342 56 115 25 2 7 36 23 46 4 3 6 3 .375 .857 .482 .336
B. Phillips CIN 2B 328 62 101 22 2 10 27 29 45 10 8 0 6 .368 .847 .479 .308

[RBA]

Arthur Rhodes selected

[RedsManRick]

Arthur Rhodes selected

Voted in by the players, it should be noted. Or maybe not; I thought they were doing the players 8 first, but it looks like they're announcing all 13 at once.

[dougdirt]

Omar Infante is an All Star? Really? he has a .721 OPS.

[RBA]

Brandon Phillips selected by manager.

[RedsManRick]

Omar freaking Infante? I guess NL SS is really, really shallow this year. Tulo is hurt, but Infante?

[RBA]

Rolen selected by players

[dougdirt]

So they are moving on to other teams.... Did Joey Votto really not make the team?

[Kc61]

What a joke if Votto didn't make it.

[Redsfan320]

Phillips, Rolen in. Votto wasn't announced with them.

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[RedsManRick]

That's insane. Ryan Howard over Votto, horrible.

[Redsfan320]

WOW. NO votto I guess. That's just awful. :(

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[dougdirt]

Seriously, Votto leads the NL in OPS and didn't make the team.

[RBA]

Reds not only hurt by not being a large media market and having poor recent seasons, but also due to the fact every team must have at least one player on the All-Star team.

[RedsManRick]

I don't care if you have to play him at SS, Omar Infante made the team and Joey Votto didn't.

[Degenerate39]

So its just Rolen and Phillips?

[dougdirt]

So its just Rolen and Phillips?

And Rhodes.

[RBA]

So its just Rolen and Phillips?

And Rhodes.

[Homer Bailey]

As evidenced by my post, I didn't think there was any way possible that votto wouldn't be selected. I'm flabergasted. I can't imagine how he feels. What a complete joke.

[SirFelixCat]

This is beyond belief, imo. Do they still do the fans vote in one last reserve for each league? Granted, it's a total joke that it would have to come to that, but still, at least he'd be in.

[dougdirt]

This is beyond belief, imo. Do they still do the fans vote in one last reserve for each league? Granted, it's a total joke that it would have to come to that, but still, at least he'd be in.

Sure, if he gets voted in. Which isn't a sure thing.

[Redsfan320]

^^^

Yes.

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[guttle11]

Really good players get left off every year, but it might be unprecedented when arguably the BEST performer in the league doesn't get picked. And to have him pick his own guy, a guy that's clearly inferior to Votto in just about every aspect is just a big loogy to Votto's face.

Embarrasing, Ol' Cholly. I hope Votto lights up Philly next weekend.

[RedsManRick]

This is beyond belief, imo. Do they still do the fans vote in one last reserve for each league? Granted, it's a total joke that it would have to come to that, but still, at least he'd be in.

Yes, but does it have to be a position player? I would not be the least surprised if it's just used as a vehicle to get Strasburg in.

[RedsManRick]

Silver lining? Votto may get more attention for being so clearly shafted than had he made it as a reserve.

[Tony Cloninger]

The 4 idiots in the studio do not even bring that up of course......Wells is a joke to listen to as well.

[reds44]

Congrats to all three of them.

How did Votto not?

[kaldaniels]

Votto robbed, but I'm honestly not suprised. Mandatory 1 guy per team kills the deserving teams who have many worthy guys. 1B is frankly loaded in the NL.

[cincy09]

they should boycott.

[redsfaninbsg]

Votto robbed, but I'm honestly not suprised. Mandatory 1 guy per team kills the deserving teams who have many worthy guys. 1B is frankly loaded in the NL.

It is, but as of today Votto is the best 1B in the NL.

[CarolinaRedleg]

I hope next week, Votto goes off on Ol' Cholly's entire pitching staff.

[Redsfan320]

As awful as it is that Votto didn't make it, to see 3 Reds on the team will be awesome, and Rolen, BP, and Rhodes all very much deserved it.

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[reds1869]

Votto was deserving and I'm upset he didn't get in. But I'm choosing to focus on the positive: three Reds having fantastic seasons are on the All-Star team! Congrats to Sir Arthur, BP and Rolen.

[Redsfan320]

This is being discussed in the "One last time..." poll-thread. Perhaps now, that thread should be merged into this one, and be stickied.

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[membengal]

If there's justice, Votto/Rolen/Phillips.

Because there is no justice:

Rolen/Phillips with Votto hosed.

Called Votto getting hosed.

This blows.

[reds1869]

What a treat for those three to make it. Votto got shafted for sure, but perhaps it will motivate him the rest of the year. I especially hope it gives him a boost against the Phillies. He is worlds better than Howard and gets the chance to prove it very soon.

[membengal]

He did not because Manuel took care of his own and Votto got hosed. You could see it coming a mile away.

[BCubb2003]

Isn't there usually a couple of days of guys coming down with nagging injuries and other guys get added?

[RedsManRick]

Votto robbed, but I'm honestly not suprised. Mandatory 1 guy per team kills the deserving teams who have many worthy guys. 1B is frankly loaded in the NL.

I don't know. It wasn't likely that 4 1B was ever an option. This was pretty clearly just a homer pick of Howard.

I love this: NL 1B WAR

1st Joey Votto, 3.6
2nd Albert Pujols, 3.1
3rd Adrian Gonazlez, 3.1
4th Aubrey Huff, 2.6
5th Adam Dunn, 2.3
6th Gaby Sanchez, 2.3
7th Prince Fielder, 2.1
8th Ryan Howard, 1.3

Way to Jerry. You got #2, #3, and #8. The Howard selection is just about indefensible.

[RedsManRick]

I love how they talked about Miguel Cabrera as being a possible MVP but only being a reserve.....

[reds44]

Wait Omar Infante made the team and Votto didn't? HA. HA.

[Cyclone792]

Congrats to Rolen, Phillips and Rhodes. They all deserved it.

It's absolutely absurd that Ryan Howard was selected over Votto, but that's Charlie Manuel being Charlie Manuel. At least there's a fan vote, which Votto should be a candidate in, and there are also usually guys that skip the game due to injury.

Maybe a Reds pitcher should just bean Howard this week and take him out of the ASG. :evil:

[OnBaseMachine]

Congrats to Phillips, Rolen, and Rhodes, they deserved it. Joey Votto got hosed though. Votto has been the NL's best hitter this season and yet he didn't make the team. Maybe this is why the NL loses every year. The best hitter in the league so far won't be playing in the game.

[BrooklynRedz]

I don't know. It wasn't likely that 4 1B was ever an option. This was pretty clearly just a homer pick of Howard.

I love this: NL 1B WAR

1st Joey Votto, 3.6
2nd Albert Pujols, 3.1
3rd Adrian Gonazlez, 3.1
4th Aubrey Huff, 2.6
5th Adam Dunn, 2.3
6th Gaby Sanchez, 2.3
7th Prince Fielder, 2.1
8th Ryan Howard, 1.3

Way to Jerry. You got #2, #3, and #8. The Howard selection is just about indefensible.

With the DH, there is plenty of room on the roster.

[reds44]

At least Omar Infante made the team!

[Boss-Hog]

I deleted some posts because the edict not to speculate about personal issues surround Joey Votto still stands. Get this thread back on topic...

[Cyclone792]

Congrats to Phillips, Rolen, and Rhodes, they deserved it. Joey Votto got hosed though. Votto has been the NL's best hitter this season and yet he didn't make the team. Maybe this is why the NL loses every year. The best hitter in the league so far won't be playing in the game.

Yep, the actual game is another aspect that just irritates me. With the Reds having a legit shot at the postseason this year, I'm actually much more interested in the outcome of the ASG and the home field situation. We need the NL to win the game, and the NL needs Votto's bat off its bench.

[RedsManRick]

Watch now, Votto will be in the MVP conversation but people will deride him because he "wasn't an All-Star".

The game itself is meaningless, but the simplistic media use it as a big indicator of quality.

[Degenerate39]

This has got to make you wonder if Votto would even get some MVP consideration at the end of the season if he keeps putting up the numbers that he is

[Raisor]

Unbelievable.

Glad for Rolen, Phillips, and Rhodes of course, but leaving Votto off is highway robbery.

[RedsManRick]

Perhaps merge this with the All-Star vote thread? The Votto griping is in full swing over there.

[Joseph]

Congrats Rolen, BP, and Rhodes!

[Degenerate39]

What team had the most All Stars in the NL? The Reds had to be one of the highest AND the best player didn't even make it

[reds44]

Maybe Votto didn't make the ASG cause the rosters were announced on the 4th and he's Canadian. This is an "American" game you know...


HMMMMMMMMMMM......

[RBA]

Delete, Double post. Glitch.

[reds44]

Votto is on the last man ballot.

VOTE. HIM. IN.

[OnBaseMachine]

So glad to see Omar Infante and his .721 OPS (in only 164 atbats) make the team over Joey Votto and his .988 OPS. Nothing against Infante but that is a joke.

[guttle11]

Go vote for Votto. Now. Or whenever it starts.

Ballot stuff like it's 1957.

[RedsManRick]

Youkilis got left off too. I think it's pretty simple -- most people still have absolutely no clue about the importance of OBP. It's still AVG, HR, RBI, SB.

[RBA]

Fans will vote in Billy Wagner. Mark it down.

[Degenerate39]

Someone get a link to the voting!

[reds44]

Oh you can vote for the last man via texting? I'm gonna abuse the crap out of that.

[OnBaseMachine]

Vote Votto! Let's get him to the All-Star game where he belongs!

[dougdirt]

Youkilis got left off too. I think it's pretty simple -- most people still have absolutely no clue about the importance of OBP. It's still AVG, HR, RBI, SB.

Which still doesn't explain Votto who has a higher average, HR and SB total than the guys taken ahead of him at 1B for the subs.

[fearofpopvol1]

Based on numbers, Votto, Phillips and Rolen all deserve to be there. Shafting Votto is an absolute joke.

I wonder if the fact that the Reds had 3 voted in from the players/manager hurt Votto? That they felt that 4 would just be too many?

[reds1869]

Youkilis got left off too. I think it's pretty simple -- most people still have absolutely no clue about the importance of OBP. It's still AVG, HR, RBI, SB.

Of course, Votto is beating his positional competition in all of those stats as well. The real problem is that most of the voters are unaware of Cincinnati's existence. If the state doesn't touch the Atlantic, it doesn't count.

Edit: Pujols is a special case...popular for long enough to get the votes.

[SirFelixCat]

While not as big a snub, but close, Miguel Olivo @ Catcher is another. He's the best catcher in all of baseball this season, not just the NL. Criminal that those 2 are off and McCann and Howard make it.

[RedsManRick]

Which still doesn't explain Votto who has a higher average, HR and SB total than the guys taken ahead of him at 1B for the subs.

Pujols and Gonzalez are right there. But if people thought of OBP the way they thought of AVG, not even Manuel would have been able to take Howard over Votto with a straight face.

[Degenerate39]

Where in the world do you vote at

[RedsManRick]

While not as big a snub, but close, Miguel Olivo @ Catcher is another. He's the best catcher in all of baseball this season, not just the NL. Criminal that those 2 are off and McCann and Howard make it.

And Omar Infante over half the league. NL East bias?

[membengal]

Youkilis got left off too. I think it's pretty simple -- most people still have absolutely no clue about the importance of OBP. It's still AVG, HR, RBI, SB.

Which is fine, I suppose, but Votto is killing there too...

[reds44]

Where in the world do you vote at
I don't think one is up yet.

[reds1869]

Where in the world do you vote at

Philadelphia and Atlanta. ;)

[LoganBuck]

Joey Votto on list to be voted in with

Heath Bell
Carlos Gonzalez
Ryan Zimmerman
Billy Wagner

[reds44]

Call me crazy, but I think Votto has a shot.

[nate]

Yeah, where does one vote at?

[RedsManRick]

From Dave Cameron on fangraphs:



On Behalf of Joe Girardi and Charlie Manuel, who were overcome with temporary insanity, I’d like to publicly apologize to the following players.

Francisco Liriano, +4.2 WAR
Joey Votto, +3.6 WAR
Kevin Youkilis, +3.2 WAR
Jered Weaver, +3.2 WAR
Alex Rios, +3.1 WAR
Josh Willingham, +3.1 WAR
Ryan Zimmerman, +3.0 WAR
Felix Hernandez, +2.9 WAR

By any standard you want to use, these eight have to be on the team. You can’t have a 2010 All-Star game without those guys. What a disaster.

[Raisor]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/all_star/y2010/fv/ballot_pop.html?tcid=cp_fm2010_ballot&cmpid=458015&cme=1360


to vote for Joey

[reds44]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/all_star/y2010/fv/ballot.html

[RedsManRick]

I guess there's an unofficial "utility" spot now. When you have 31 guys to play 1 game, do you really need to value positional flexibility over actual ability to play baseball well?

[westofyou]

Silver lining? Votto may get more attention for being so clearly shafted than had he made it as a reserve.

Correct, many a guy who was on the cusp of national recognition has had a snub open more eyes than the backdoor invite. Votto is blocked in recognition because the position he plays is stacked, but this just helps bring his name into the forefront.

That said I see no reason to fret over a game that Polanco almost got a starting nod in, it's not science, it's marketing.

[dougdirt]

That said I see no reason to fret over a game that Polanco almost got a starting nod in, it's not science, it's marketing.

For a team in first place, this silly little 'marketing' could ultimately decide how our season ends.

[westofyou]

For a team in first place, this silly little 'marketing' could ultimately decide how our season ends.

Stupid rule, I refuse to get wrapped up in it.

[RedsManRick]

nt

[OnBaseMachine]

Some reaction to Votto not making the team:

Larry Stone, Seattle Times:

Omar Infante makes the team, and Joey Votto doesn't. Yikes. He has a higher OPS than Albert Pujols.

Did Joey Votto really not make the team? That's an outrage

http://twitter.com/StoneLarry

Jayson Stark, ESPN:

I can defend almost every NL all-star pick. But leaving Joey Votto off this team is one of the most outrageous all-star snubs in years.

http://twitter.com/jaysonst

[steig]

I will say this, Joey Votto should not only be on the team but should be offered a spot in the home run derby this year. If Votto is not put on the team after the first half season that he has had then I will refuse to watch the All Star game and encourage others join.

[membengal]

I never participate in on-line stuff, but I just voted for Votto 10 times.

[BrooklynRedz]

I would hope this is a lesson to the Reds marketing dept. For all the good things they've implemented over the past year, they are still playing catchup to clubs like STL, PHI, SEA and MIL when it comes to ASG ballot promotions. All ofnthose four teams actively engage in stuff-the-ballot promotions both in-stadium and on area college campuses. The Reds would and should 'come out to play' for Votto on Final Man voting.

[KoryMac5]

I would hate to be pitching for the Cubs today.

[flyer85]

well we can laugh at the Phillies as they are paying Howard 25 million for the next 8 years or so. It is going to end very badly.

This just shows what a joke the game is. I it's why I haven't watched it in years, I just don't care

[Cyclone792]

I just love how MLB spells Cincinnati incorrectly on the voting results form.

Just brilliant, MLB, just brilliant.

[Degenerate39]

Is there a limit on how many times you can vote? I've been going none stop since someone posted the link

[reds44]

lol anybody notice that Cincinnati is spelled wrong?

[RedsManRick]

I just love how MLB spells Cincinnati incorrectly on the voting results form.

Just brilliant, MLB, just brilliant.

That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

[RedsManRick]

I don't think there is a cap on votes. I've voted at least 30 times.

[Degenerate39]

I'm sick of this validation key

[RedsManRick]

When are the Phillies in town next? :evil:

[LoganBuck]

You can share the voting on Facebook. Do it. Drum up interest. Have the crazy person who likes everything, who you haven't spoken to in fifteen years, vote. Do it now!

[Degenerate39]

You can share the voting on Facebook. Do it. Drum up interest. Have the crazy person who likes everything, who you haven't spoken to in fifteen years, vote. Do it now!

Done! Maybe whoever did the Rally Onion page could post it on there too

[HokieRed]

Completely absurd, of course, one more sign of the game's total irrelevance, except for the stupid rule alluded to above. Another year I won't bother to turn it on. I'd rather watch any minor league game any day than the so-called All Star game.

[Cyclone792]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

[Degenerate39]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

That's what I've been doing.

[OnBaseMachine]

I don't think there is a cap on votes. I've voted at least 30 times.

Same here.

I voted Votto/Youkilis.

[dougdirt]

Voting Cincinnati all day. Votto and Youk.

[Raisor]

Same here.

I voted Votto/Youkilis.

Same here

[LoganBuck]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

That is what I am doing!

[Degenerate39]

After all of this voting I'll be highly upset if he doesn't get it

[LoganBuck]

You can vote quicker by opening the link up in multiple tabs, and then voting, and then clicking vote again. I have eight tabs open and it seems to be just the right amount of time to vote fast.

[Cyclone792]

I put up a post on SOSH. Hopefully they're receptive to it - the Sox fans over there are a smart bunch so they're likely voting for Votto anyway.

[fearofpopvol1]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

Great idea. And that's what I've been doing.

I am concerned that Wagner or Zimmerman will win over Votto due to name recognition. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[RedsManRick]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

I've put in 50 votes for Votto & Youk.

[OnBaseMachine]

From John Fay's blog:


* Reds players were amazed that Votto was left out.

Shortly after the All-Stars were announced, Reds media relations director Rob Butcher had several Reds players tape brief TV promos for Fox Sports Ohio, urging fans to vote Votto this week. The players taped their spots in the Reds dugout and/or on the field before today’s game, and all were glad to oblige.

“He’s certainly earned it,” Rolen said. “He’s probably the most valuable guy on this team.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/07/04/reds-upset-that-votto-snubbed/

[Tony Cloninger]

What Matt Holiday and his joke of a selection over some other OF.......that was BS as well.

I would take the Pirates CF over him.

[dougdirt]

For those of you on twitter, use the tag #VoteVotto and lets get this thing trending.

[OnBaseMachine]

For those of you on twitter, use the tag #VoteVotto and lets get this thing trending.

Votto is now trending on twitter! Keep it going. We need to get him No. 1.

[fearofpopvol1]

I put up a post on SOSH. Hopefully they're receptive to it - the Sox fans over there are a smart bunch so they're likely voting for Votto anyway.

You may want to put it up in the MLB forum over there too...the thread on that side of their board is more active than the one in the Sox forum.

[fearofpopvol1]

Votto is now trending on twitter! Keep it going. We need to get him No. 1.

Amazing!!

If you're on twitter, tweet away about Votto! This is pretty awesome.

[OnBaseMachine]

From Jerry Crasnick:

Here's why Reds' Rob Butcher is a PR all-time great: He had the "Vote Votto'' campaign going 21 mins. after All-Star rosters named

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick

[11larkin11]

Eh, I think Konerko is a huge snub as well. Tough to vote for Youk with Konerko there.

[yab1112]

My fingers are getting tired. When's the voting closed?

[Buckeye33]

My fingers are getting tired. When's the voting closed?

Thursday.. hope you still have use of your fingers by then.

[yab1112]

Thursday.. hope you still have use of your fingers by then.

Thusrday :eek:

Methinks I should pace myself

[reds1869]

Thusrday :eek:

Methinks I should pace myself

Me too. I'm into the hundreds. :eek:

[Tony Cloninger]

I got blisters on me fingers!!

[HeatherC1212]

My mom was in the room with me when the All Star names were announced so unfortunately I couldn't use the bad language (that I normally don't use) to a VERY large degree when I saw that Joey got left off the team. I have no words for how upset I was when they finished naming that team. :rant: :eek:

I'm VERY glad that he made the final ballot and I agree that he has a decent shot at making it (especially if we work with the Red Sox fans who are notorious for voting a ton). I posted one graphic in the Vote Votto thread but I will be working on more later tonight. I have a graphic design degree and have all kinds of ideas floating in my head right now but I'll have to work on more of them later (heading to the pool to get my head clear from the disappointment right now :(). Joey being left off was the BIGGEST crock of the season and I will do everything in my power to help get Joey on that team. Facebook, Twitter, Email....let's keep getting the word out! VOTE VOTTO!!!! :D

[OnBaseMachine]

Speaking of snubs, how in the world did Jered Weaver not make the AL All-Star roster? 108.2 IP, 89 H, 11 HR, 26 BB/124 K, 2.82 ERA. Leads the AL in strikeouts.

[TheNext44]

I wonder when was the last time, if ever that league leader in OPS was left off the All Star team?

One thing that should really help Votto is that his counting stats that everyone understands, are of MVP caliber as well.

[TheNext44]

From Jerry Crasnick:

Here's why Reds' Rob Butcher is a PR all-time great: He had the "Vote Votto'' campaign going 21 mins. after All-Star rosters named

http://twitter.com/jcrasnick

No offense, but if Butcher was a true PR All Star Great, Votto would be on the team.

Who makes the All Star team is mostly marketing, so Rob needs to assume some of the blame. It's an uphill battle here in Cincinnati, but the '70's and even '80's Reds had no problem getting on the team.

[Tony Cloninger]

Hughes made it over Weaver....as the manager of that team gets to pick and is not going to NOT pick one of his own.

[MWM]

Marlon Byrd makes it, but no Votto? Total joke.

Bob Brenly just said that byrd has had to "earn every bit of it" because he has only 13 walks this year. LOL!

[savafan]

All Reds fans should vote for YOUKILIS on the AL side. Submit a Votto/Youkilis ballot. I can go post over on SOSH telling Sox fans we'll vote for Youkilis and that we'd appreciate a Votto vote from their end as they try to push Youkilis in.

I'm just now reading this thread, but this is what I've been doing all day.

[RedsManRick]

Speaking of snubs, how in the world did Jered Weaver not make the AL All-Star roster? 108.2 IP, 89 H, 11 HR, 26 BB/124 K, 2.82 ERA. Leads the AL in strikeouts.

I don't know. I imagine Fransisco Liriano would like to know.

CC Sabathia, NYY
Clay Buchholz, BOS
Fausto Carmona, CLE
David Price, TB
Cliff Lee, SEA
Trevor Cahill, OAK
Phil Hughes, NYY
Jon Lester, BOS

Neftali Feliz, TEX
Mariano Rivera, NYY
Jose Valverde, DET
Joakim Soria, KC
Matt Thornton, CWS

I'm guessing they got hurt by the every team rule and a bit of homerism. Carmona (CLE), Cahill (OAK), and Thornton (CWS) were their team's only reps and Hughes and Sabathia are obviously both Yankees. Both the Yankees have 10 wins (must be nice to have that offense), so Girardi would certainly use that as an argument.

[Redsfan320]

I've been voting Youk as well.

320

[11larkin11]

Konerko definitely deserves it, but Swish is a Buckeye, so I'm not sure.

[fearofpopvol1]

One thing that is awesome...Votto is STILL trending on Twitter. Has anything Reds ever trended on Twitter? I don't recall it honestly. This is good for the Reds/Votto whether he makes the team or not.

[VR]

It's evidence that people don't watch baseball anymore by Votto's snub and Holladay's selection. Just inexplicable.

[Mario-Rijo]

I just voted but voted the way I would have had I done it earlier. Votto, BP and Rolen, I figured Rhodes would get snubbed.

[VR]

I'm thinking Janish is going to say 'that was for Joey Votto' in the post game comments....

[blumj]

I don't know. I imagine Fransisco Liriano would like to know.

CC Sabathia, NYY
Clay Buchholz, BOS
Fausto Carmona, CLE
David Price, TB
Cliff Lee, SEA
Trevor Cahill, OAK
Phil Hughes, NYY
Jon Lester, BOS

Neftali Feliz, TEX
Mariano Rivera, NYY
Jose Valverde, DET
Joakim Soria, KC
Matt Thornton, CWS

I'm guessing they got hurt by the every team rule and a bit of homerism. Carmona (CLE), Cahill (OAK), and Thornton (CWS) were their team's only reps and Hughes and Sabathia are obviously both Yankees. Both the Yankees have 10 wins (must be nice to have that offense), so Girardi would certainly use that as an argument.
I think Hughes was voted in by the players? But Buchholz is hurt and some of the guys chosen and the most likely replacements are scheduled to start the Sunday before the ASG, so expect a lot of changes to the AL staff.

Oh, and BTW, Matt Thornton's got to be on the team because everyone knows Manuel's going to pick Ryan Howard to PH in a big spot.

[Tony Cloninger]

What is even more galling is having Manuel talk about Strasburg as to why he wa snot picked and no mention of the obvious. I really could care less about a pitcher who has had just 5 starts no matter how good his stuff is......he is not exactly dominating anyone these last few starts...but sure lets discuss him as a snub.

[OnBaseMachine]

From Jayson Stark:


12 Grievous Roster Omissions

I could make a lot longer list than 12 guys whose absence from these teams is practically criminal. But here goes:

1. Joey Votto: Have I mentioned yet this was a disgrace? Votto leads the league in OPS. He's second in on-base percentage and slugging. He's in the top five in all three Triple Crown categories. He's arguably the MVP in the whole league. How can he not be on this team?


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5354376

[TheNext44]

MLB TV just showed a commercial the Yankees made for Swisher (Vote Swish) with Swisher himself. Butcher needs a Votto one up asap.

[blumj]

From Jayson Stark:



http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5354376
That's pretty close to what Gammons said on the Red Sox post game show. But, hey, when you only have a 34 man roster, you really need a spot for a versatile utility guy like Omar Infante.

[TheNext44]

Here's a question for those who understand the way they make up these rosters:

If they needed to add an UTL inf, why not make Phillips the UTL inf instead of Infante, go with just one backup 2B, and pick Votto as 4th 1B? Are you only allowed two backups per postition?

[westofyou]

Tony Perez 1973 snubbed, Klu in 1951, Lomnbardi 1935.. 1986 ED could have a case over Chili Davis, the games full of guys and the exhibition only has so many spaces.

There is always someone who is peeved.

[fearofpopvol1]

Tony Perez 1973 snubbed, Klu in 1951, Lomnbardi 1935.. 1986 ED could have a case over Chili Davis, the games full of guys and the exhibition only has so many spaces.

There is always someone who is peeved.

Yeah, but how big were those snubs compared to Votto. Were they in the top 5 in all counting stats categories?

[_Sir_Charles_]

Tony Perez 1973 snubbed, Klu in 1951, Lomnbardi 1935.. 1986 ED could have a case over Chili Davis, the games full of guys and the exhibition only has so many spaces.

There is always someone who is peeved.

True. But in all my years (and this isn't me being a homer) I've never seen a snub as bad as Votto this year.

Just look at the major offensive catagories.

BA: 5th in NL
HR: 2nd in NL
RBI: 5th in NL
Hits: 11th in NL
SLG: 3rd in NL
OBP: 3rd in NL
OPS: 1st in NL
Runs: 4th in NL

What other offensive catagories ARE there? I actually foresaw this snub, but it STILL amazes me.

I can buy the fans not voting him in due to him being somewhat anonymous outside of Cincy...but the players and the manager? A player who's most likely leading the NL race for MVP currently? For a team leading their division? No, this is an all-time snubber for me.

Even if the fans DO vote him in on the last ballot, it's still a HUGE slap in the face to Joey from his peers and the manager.

[blumj]

Here's a question for those who understand the way they make up these rosters:

If they needed to add an UTL inf, why not make Phillips the UTL inf instead of Infante, go with just one backup 2B, and pick Votto as 4th 1B? Are you only allowed two backups per postition?
No, the fans vote in the 8 starters(9 including DH for AL), the players vote in a reserve for each position(again 9 for AL), plus X number of starting pitchers(5?) and Y number of relief pitchers(3?). They don't have to pick a utility IFer, or a IF/OF or a 3rd catcher, they just have to pick someone from each team. Is there an Omar Infante on the AL team? Maybe Wigginton, but they needed an Oriole, and he's at least arguably the best one right now.

[TheNext44]

Tony Perez 1973 snubbed, Klu in 1951, Lomnbardi 1935.. 1986 ED could have a case over Chili Davis, the games full of guys and the exhibition only has so many spaces.

There is always someone who is peeved.

Back then, the rosters were smaller. I know, more teams, but still, there should be the same number of elite players.

There will always be snubs, I agreee, but they have tweaked the way the rosters are picked to make snubs less controversial. In all the cases above, there were arguments both ways. There simply is no logical argument to back up not taking Votto. None. This is not business as usual. This is worth the outrage.

[westofyou]

Yeah, but how big were those snubs compared to Votto. Were they in the top 5 in all counting stats categories?

Lombardi was probably the biggest, but the game was new then.

Votto has a great comp for his snub with Frank Howard 1967, he was in the top 5 in HR/RBI/TB/SLG/OPS and sat at home as Yaz and Killebrew got in, granted they were both HOF at their peaks, but Howard was just popping after years of waiting and would see the AS game the next 4 years.

[westofyou]

True. But in all my years (and this isn't me being a homer) I've never seen a snub as bad as Votto this year.

Just look at the major offensive catagories.

BA: 5th in NL
HR: 2nd in NL
RBI: 5th in NL
Hits: 11th in NL
SLG: 3rd in NL
OBP: 3rd in NL
OPS: 1st in NL
Runs: 4th in NL

What other offensive catagories ARE there? I actually foresaw this snub, but it STILL amazes me.

I can buy the fans not voting him in due to him being somewhat anonymous outside of Cincy...but the players and the manager? A player who's most likely leading the NL race for MVP currently? For a team leading their division? No, this is an all-time snubber for me.

Even if the fans DO vote him in on the last ballot, it's still a HUGE slap in the face to Joey from his peers and the manager.

It's an exhibition game, the players vote for their buddies 75% of the time the managers vote for guys they have seen more than a handful of times. Fact is most players think the game is an honor, but a fake game, IMO it's not a slap in the face to a guy like Votto, he seems pretty set in his manner and has a control of his ego. I could see some guys taking it that way, but not Votto.

[Tony Cloninger]

And Sparky was the NL Manager in 1973.......so it had to be tough for him NOT to take Perez.

[westofyou]

And Sparky was the NL Manager in 1973.......so it had to be tough for him NOT to take Perez.

Took Torre instead, and he was having a bad year compared to Doggie

[cumberlandreds]

Votto not making it is a travesty. He's the NL MVP in the 1st half IMO. But the greater travesty is the rule to take a player frome very team. Tell me why the Cubs,Pirates and Astros deserve to have a player on the all star team? If you truly want to have a deserving set of all stars this rule should be dropped. To my knowledge no other league does this.Oh well time to go and try to vote Votto in.

[Redsfan320]

Just found out that Wright ended up as 3B starter over Polanco. Thrilled about this!

320

[membengal]

Basically, and I don't know that anyone has made this point, and if they have, sorry for having missed it, but, because Rhodes made the team, Votto didn't.

Adrian Gonzalez was the lone Padre player, is my understanding. So no Padres pitchers made it, despite having the best team ERA in the NL. And stunning to see no one make it from that staff.

At any rate, if you take out Rhodes and put in Latos or Gregorson or Bell, then there is the Padre rep, and Votto makes it over Gonzalez. But since Rhodes made it, and no Padre pitcher did, then, ergo, Gonzalez has to be on.

All of the above is written with the view that Manuel was going to take the undeserving Howard no matter what, making it in the end, Rhodes and Gonzalez who made it as opposed to insert Padre pitcher here and Votto making it.

[TheNext44]

Basically, and I don't know that anyone has made this point, and if they have, sorry for having missed it, but, because Rhodes made the team, Votto didn't.

Adrian Gonzalez was the lone Padre player, is my understanding. So no Padres pitchers made it, despite having the best team ERA in the NL. And stunning to see no one make it from that staff.

At any rate, if you take out Rhodes and put in Latos or Gregorson or Bell, then there is the Padre rep, and Votto makes it over Gonzalez. But since Rhodes made it, and no Padre pitcher did, then, ergo, Gonzalez has to be on.

All of the above is written with the view that Manuel was going to take the undeserving Howard no matter what, making it in the end, Rhodes and Gonzalez who made it as opposed to insert Padre pitcher here and Votto making it.

But Rhodes and Gonzalez actually deserves to go. Just don't take Infante and Votto makes it. Much simpler. And I never assumed that Manuel would take Howard this year. Last year made sense, since it was played in Howards home town. But this year...????

[OnBaseMachine]

From John Fay's blog:


Votto then smiled and said:

“On the flip side, my replacement did pretty good.”

Paul Janish came in and took Votto’s No. 3 spot in the batting order. Janish played third base, with Miguel Cairo moving from third base to first in Votto’s place. (Regular third baseman Scott Rolen had a scheduled day off).

The seldom-used Janish merely had the game of his life: 4-for-4 with a homer and three RBI. The hit and RBI totals were career highs for Janish.

Votto said a new fan vote may be needed.

“Have the fans vote in who starts,” Votto said. “Paul Janish, myself or Miguel Cairo.”


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/07/04/votto-i-was-disappointed/

[TheNext44]

Basically, and I don't know that anyone has made this point, and if they have, sorry for having missed it, but, because Rhodes made the team, Votto didn't.

Adrian Gonzalez was the lone Padre player, is my understanding. So no Padres pitchers made it, despite having the best team ERA in the NL. And stunning to see no one make it from that staff.

At any rate, if you take out Rhodes and put in Latos or Gregorson or Bell, then there is the Padre rep, and Votto makes it over Gonzalez. But since Rhodes made it, and no Padre pitcher did, then, ergo, Gonzalez has to be on.

All of the above is written with the view that Manuel was going to take the undeserving Howard no matter what, making it in the end, Rhodes and Gonzalez who made it as opposed to insert Padre pitcher here and Votto making it.

You are right that at least one of Latos, Gregorson or Bell should have been picked. But you can take care of that by leaving off Broxton. Many of my Dodger fans friends were complexed that he made it. He's having a great year, but even they admit that Bell's been better.

[membengal]

But Rhodes and Gonzalez actually deserves to go. Just don't take Infante and Votto makes it. Much simpler. And I never assumed that Manuel would take Howard this year. Last year made sense, since it was played in Howards home town. But this year...????

You are not thinking how Charlie Manuel thinks.

[OnBaseMachine]

From the Reds website:


Besides Pujols and Gonzalez, the Phillies' Ryan Howard also made the NL squad. Howard was selected by his manager, Charlie Manuel, who is the All-Star skipper.

"He's my guy," Manuel said about Howard. "He's my player. My guy. Probably the toughest decision was Howard and Votto. Both of them are having big years. Both of them are standing right there. Like I said, Howard's my guy. Their numbers are close, very close. I have to go with my guy."


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100704&content_id=11909968&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

If by close Charlie means not close at all then I agree. Let's compare Votto and Howard's numbers:

Joey Votto: .312/.412/.572 - .984 OPS, 19 HR/285 AB

Ryan Howard: .293/.349/.502 - .851 OPS, 15 HR/317 AB

Votto is blowing Howard out of the water.

[TheNext44]

From the Reds website:



http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100704&content_id=11909968&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

If by close Charlie means not close at all then I agree. Let's compare Votto and Howard's numbers:

Joey Votto: .312/.412/.572 - .984 OPS, 19 HR/285 AB

Ryan Howard: .293/.349/.502 - .851 OPS, 15 HR/317 AB

Votto is blowing Howard out of the water.

The difference between Votto and Howard is bigger than the difference between Howard and Adam LaRoche, plus there are at least three other 1B that didn't make the All Star team that are better than Howard.

[HeatherC1212]

Charlie Manuel is a tool. :rolleyes: (On the other hand, I'm glad Joey has tried to keep a sense of humor about everything although it made me sad to find out that he was disappointed earlier today. He's usually pretty even keeled about stuff outside of the game so that's telling that it bummed him out. :()

Joe Morgan is slightly ranting about Joey not making the All Star team during the Angels-Royals game on ESPN and even said he would be voting for him on the final vote ballot. Earlier today, Kruk on BBTN was slightly ranting about Joey being left off the All Star team. I just got caught up on Twitter and some of the media guys there were really upset too. There seem to be some pretty highly ranked media guys who are not happy about Joey being snubbed. Charlie Manuel isn't going to hear the end of this one, especially if his team keeps going in the toilet. Even two of my friends who are HUGE Philly fans are confused on how he was left off the team and think he's going to win the Final Vote ballot in a landslide. I hope they're right! :)

BTW-I didn't get to post this earlier but I am THRILLED for Brandon, Scott, and especially Arthur to be selected to the team. I nearly cried when I saw Arthur's name go by during the selection show and knowing how much it meant to him makes it all the sweeter. Those guys will have a great time and hopefully we'll be adding a fourth guy to that Reds contingent later this week! :D

[KronoRed]

Dusty would say the same stuff if he were in the same position, it's why mangers should have nothing to do with player selection, nor should fans.

[TheNext44]

As much as I dislike ESPN for it's love of the big market teams, I have to say I'm impressed with the attention they are giving to Votto being snubbed. They've mentioned it four time in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, and even started the broadcast by saying the whenever anyone uses the word "snubbed" from now on, they should say "Vottoed". lol

[Joseph]

As much as I dislike ESPN for it's love of the big market teams, I have to say I'm impressed with the attention they are giving to Votto being snubbed. They've mentioned it four time in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, and even started the broadcast by saying the whenever anyone uses the word "snubbed" from now on, they should say "Vottoed". lol

Its because Votto isn't just a snub on our behalf, he's an HISTORICAL snub. Like no player in the last 50 years give or take snub.

[HeatherC1212]

As much as I dislike ESPN for it's love of the big market teams, I have to say I'm impressed with the attention they are giving to Votto being snubbed. They've mentioned it four time in the first 15 minutes of SportsCenter, and even started the broadcast by saying the whenever anyone uses the word "snubbed" from now on, they should say "Vottoed". lol

I agree about the ESPN attention. It's been pretty great to see and John Kruk was downright annoyed earlier today when he was talking about Joey not making the team. I love the new term for being left off the team, LOL :laugh:

Reminds me of something in skating that's a little similar. There was this one skater back in the 1990s, Michael Chack, that skated a great long program and finished 3rd overall in the Senior Men's event at the US National Championships. ABC neglected to show show him on TV that year. Ever since that moment any skater who skates an awesome program and doesn't get shown on TV has been referred to as being "chacked" from the broadcast. Vottoed works for me in the same way. GREAT terminology! :D

[Ghosts of 1990]

Busy day but this made the holiday sweeter.

[Captain Hook]

I'd have been less upset had Votto been the only one from the team to make it.Nothing against Rolen, BP or Sir Arthur because they all deserve it but what a joke Joey not being named.Like others I had a feeling this was coming but it still can't believe it.

The silver lining to this is that Joey and the Reds will have a chance to put a dent in the Phillies playoff hopes right before the AS game(just lost 3 of 4 against the terrible team from Pitt. and are now 5 back).Nothing would be better then seeing Votto lead the Reds to a sweep of Manuel and the now hatted team from Philly,although 2 of 3 would suite the Reds just fine.

Edit:it's nice that Joey still has a chance to be part of the team but it really makes me even more angry.Because of Manuel's stupid decision I have to waste a bunch of my time voting for Joey when I should be doing other things.

[savafan]

Pretty strong case against Infante being an all-star:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Aleo6ZpwEDFWlEXRMsj3xOGFCLcF?slug=jp-tendegrees070410

[SMcGavin]

This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread. But I was under the impression Yadier Molina was having a poor season, so I was somewhat surprised to see him starting for the NL. I went ahead and checked out his numbers...

.231/.310/.306

The All Star game is a joke. For many more reasons than Votto's exclusion.

[westofyou]

Its because Votto isn't just a snub on our behalf, he's an HISTORICAL snub. Like no player in the last 50 years give or take snub.

Evan Longoria 2008, same situation, lost out to Guillen and was voted in the last vote.

I think Votto was snubbed, but the whole "historic" bent seems a tad overboard, guys get snubbed every year, guys with great numbers, and this year it's a handful.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-sorry/

Fake game with less attention to picking the reserves than some folks devote to ordering a meal. Personally I don't even watch it anymore it's such a silly event of marketing and glad handing, I get the gist of it greatly. But won't devote my time to it, it's a break for some fans too.

[TheNext44]

Evan Longoria 2008, same situation, lost out to Guillen and was voted in the last vote.

I think Votto was snubbed, but the whole "historic" bent seems a tad overboard, guys get snubbed every year, guys with great numbers, and this year it's a handful.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/im-sorry/

Fake game with less attention to picking the reserves than some folks devote to ordering a meal. Personally I don't even watch it anymore it's such a silly event of marketing and glad handing, I get the gist of it greatly. But won't devote my time to it, it's a break for some fans too.

I understand your desire to underplay this, but this snub really is historic. The last time a player who was in the top 5 in all the major offensive categories at the All-Star break was in the 60's when Boog Powell got snubbed, and I'm pretty sure that was the last time as well.

Just read about this everywhere else. Everyone is saying this is historic, and that they couldn't remember when a first half MVP candidate didn't make the All- Star team.

The Longoria case in '08 is not the same. He was batting .275 and his OPS was almost 100 points below Votto's at this point. He also was a rookie, so he was less known.

This isn't about a guy not getting in with better numbers than another player at his position who did get in. This is about the player with the best numbers in the game at this moment not getting in. That happens once in a generation. It is historic.

[GAC]

Fake game with less attention to picking the reserves than some folks devote to ordering a meal. Personally I don't even watch it anymore it's such a silly event of marketing and glad handing, I get the gist of it greatly. But won't devote my time to it, it's a break for some fans too.

You nailed it perfectly for me. It's sad what has happened to the AS game over the years, but you can thank MLB for that who, IMO, has done to the game exactly as you described it above - "a silly event of marketing and glad handing".

It's become a sham like the GG awards.

It began years ago, but why should fans take this game seriously when players over the years started to disrespect it by being selected and then finding ways to bow out because they instead preferred the mini vacation?

It's not about all-stars much any more, but is a popularity contest. That's why guys like Votto get overlooked by fans.

Sorry, but I feel voting needs to be taken away from the fans. Every year you've got fans trying to "stuff the ballot box" and come up with various schemes to get their fav player in. When you've got fans asking other team's fans to vote for their player and we'll vote for yours, or people saying they went in and cast 50 votes for so-and so, "vote early and vote OFTEN", then IMO that shows the whole system is screwed up , and the deserving players are going to by-passed in some instances.

And Selig's decision, to get the players to take the game seriously, by giving WS home field advantage to the winner, was simply a very ill-adviced decision when the fans are picking your starting rosters.

[blumj]

Basically, and I don't know that anyone has made this point, and if they have, sorry for having missed it, but, because Rhodes made the team, Votto didn't.

Adrian Gonzalez was the lone Padre player, is my understanding. So no Padres pitchers made it, despite having the best team ERA in the NL. And stunning to see no one make it from that staff.

At any rate, if you take out Rhodes and put in Latos or Gregorson or Bell, then there is the Padre rep, and Votto makes it over Gonzalez. But since Rhodes made it, and no Padre pitcher did, then, ergo, Gonzalez has to be on.

All of the above is written with the view that Manuel was going to take the undeserving Howard no matter what, making it in the end, Rhodes and Gonzalez who made it as opposed to insert Padre pitcher here and Votto making it.
The players voted Adrian Gonzalez onto the team, and they may have voted Rhodes in, too, the selection show made it clear which position players were voted in by the players and which were selected by the managers but not the pitchers. In case anyone wants to know, McCann, Prado(replacing Utley), Byrd, Rolen, Hart, Reyes(replacing Tulo), Holliday, and Gonzalez were player selections, Young, Infante, Phillips, Bourn, and Howard were manager selections. On the AL side, Beltre, Ortiz(nothing about this process is any stupider than having to vote in a reserve DH), Cabrera, Hunter, Andrus, Kinsler(replacement for Pedroia), Bautista, Buck(replacement for Martinez), and Wells were player selections, Wigginton and Rodriguez were manager selections.

[Dom Heffner]

Omar Infante needs to develop an undisclosed injury.

[membengal]

Omar Infante needs to develop an undisclosed injury.


Lance Armstrong: Quit? You know, once I was thinking about quitting when I was diagnosed with brain, lung and testicular cancer, all at the same time. But with the love and support of my friends and family, I got back on the bike and I won the Tour de France five times in a row. But I'm sure you have a good reason to quit. So what are you dying from that's keeping you from the finals?

Peter La Fleur: Right now it feels a little bit like... shame.

[Dom Heffner]

Yeah, those are similar situations.

Omar Infante is a baseball champion dying of cancer and I'm joking about his need to step down lol....

[membengal]

I was trying to put him in the Le Fleur category, dying of shame.

Sorry for trying to have a light moment.

My bad. I will step back out now. My apologies.

[Dom Heffner]

I was trying to put him in the Le Fleur category, dying of shame.

Sorry for trying to have a light moment.

My bad. I will step back out now. My apologies.

No, I'm an idiot. And we probably won't be getting too many on here disagreeibg with that lol....

That's actually pretty funny now that I'm in the know, which was pretty frealing obvious looking back on it. :)

[westofyou]

I understand your desire to underplay this, but this snub really is historic. The last time a player who was in the top 5 in all the major offensive categories at the All-Star break was in the 60's when Boog Powell got snubbed, and I'm pretty sure that was the last time as well.

Just read about this everywhere else. Everyone is saying this is historic, and that they couldn't remember when a first half MVP candidate didn't make the All- Star team.

The Longoria case in '08 is not the same. He was batting .275 and his OPS was almost 100 points below Votto's at this point. He also was a rookie, so he was less known.

This isn't about a guy not getting in with better numbers than another player at his position who did get in. This is about the player with the best numbers in the game at this moment not getting in. That happens once in a generation. It is historic.

You over overplay it, I'll downplay it, it's a popularity contest and that's about it. The most telling thing to me is Votto is popular in Cincinnati and not so much around the country. He's having a great season, but it's not like he's the only 1st baseman who has an OPS over .900.

[Always Red]

Let me get this right; a part time utility IF is an all star?

..and Votto, arguably the NL MVP so far this year, is left off the team? :rolleyes:

For all of Bud's effort, talk and angst to make the ASG count for something, it still doesn't, and it gets weirder and seemingly more irrelevant every year.

Most probably, I will continue to not watch it (I haven't in some time), even if Votto does get the last chance vote, which just seems like more effort by MLB to get hits at their web site. But then again, I'm just a grumpy old man. ;)

The week of the ASG is the worst time of summer for me- no baseball. :(

Congrats to BP, Rolen, and especially to Arthur Rhodes, making his first All Star team at age 40. :thumbup:

[Scrap Irony]

The problem is that Votto has the best numbers of any player in the National League right now.

He not only deserves to be an All Star, he deserves to be THE All Star.

And his numbers are far enough ahead of the others to make that obvious even to the ESPN talking heads.

Is it an exhibition? Sure.

But, according to their own ads, "this time, it counts."

It counts if the Reds make it to the playoffs. (Would you want the best player in the league this year on the roster?)

It also counts to some asinine baseball lifers when determining HoF credentials. (And to me, too. I'm guilty of looking at All Star berths in gauging level of dominance positionally.)

Will it matter to the Reds? Perhaps not. Probably not.

Will it matter to Votto? Perhaps not. Probably not.

But it could matter.

[Screwball]

You over overplay it, I'll downplay it, it's a popularity contest and that's about it.

I think you're overlooking how important it is to the players to be selected. Listening to Hersheiser and Joe during the telecast last night, it was very apparent the players consider it a great honor to be nominated to the All Star team, and take snubs very personally.

Sure, every year there's a player or two who dismiss it as easily as you, but the vast, vast majority don't. And that's why I want to see Votto make it. Not only is he insanely deserving, but he cares a hell of a lot too.

[RedsManRick]

I think there's a very big difference between the way players address their first ASG and repeat selections. There's a patina of "all-star" that goes on to a player once they make. Phillips mentioned it the other day.

[westofyou]

I think you're overlooking how important it is to the players to be selected. Listening to Hersheiser and Joe during the telecast last night, it was very apparent the players consider it a great honor to be nominated to the All Star team, and take snubs very personally.

Sure, every year there's a player or two who dismiss it as easily as you, but the vast, vast majority don't. And that's why I want to see Votto make it. Not only is he insanely deserving, but he cares a hell of a lot too.

True for every Oral there's a Graig Nettles who poo poos it, but folks this ain't science and the outrage while real is funny considering that Cincinnati is the reason the fans lost he vote the first time.

[Tony Cloninger]

No one is on Girardi for pulling what he is pulling. Picking CC ...when he knows he will not pitch....and Hughes....so then he can replace CC with Andy. Brilliant little weasel he is. While the host park gets one player and Weaver is screwed.

He of course has to take ARod....or Sybil ...as I like to call him. (Watch the Sally Field movie from the 70's for the explanation) His delicate ego could not take being left behind over a Sox player.

In 1976 ...Sparky picked Tony Perez out of loyalty, after passing him over in 1973. I loved it beacuse i was 9 years old and loved everything reds....but now I would be more embarrassed by it.

[westofyou]

The problem is that Votto has the best numbers of any player in the National League right now.

He not only deserves to be an All Star, he deserves to be THE All Star.

And his numbers are far enough ahead of the others to make that obvious even to the ESPN talking heads.

Is it an exhibition? Sure.

But, according to their own ads, "this time, it counts."

It counts if the Reds make it to the playoffs. (Would you want the best player in the league this year on the roster?)

It also counts to some asinine baseball lifers when determining HoF credentials. (And to me, too. I'm guilty of looking at All Star berths in gauging level of dominance positionally.)

Will it matter to the Reds? Perhaps not. Probably not.

Will it matter to Votto? Perhaps not. Probably not.

But it could matter.
And 2 out of every 3 dentists recommend it, and you're soaking in it now.

Marketing is a powerful tool.

[_Sir_Charles_]

True for every Oral there's a Graig Nettles who poo poos it, but folks this ain't science and the outrage while real is funny considering that Cincinnati is the reason the fans lost the vote the first time.

I didn't know what you were referring to here, but lo and behold....


In 1947 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_in_baseball), fans were given the opportunity to vote on the eight starting position players. In 1957 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_in_baseball), fans of the Cincinnati Reds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati_Reds) stuffed the ballot box (see below), and elected a Red to every position except first base. Commissioner Ford Frick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Frick) stepped in and removed two Reds from the lineup. As a response to this unfairness, fan voting was discontinued. Players, coaches, and managers were given the sole authority to elect starting position players, for the next dozen years.

[Dom Heffner]

I think you're overlooking how important it is to the players to be selected. Listening to Hersheiser and Joe during the telecast last night, it was very apparent the players consider it a great honor to be nominated to the All Star team, and take snubs very personally.

Sure, every year there's a player or two who dismiss it as easily as you, but the vast, vast majority don't. And that's why I want to see Votto make it. Not only is he insanely deserving, but he cares a hell of a lot too.

I think he's overlooking the fact that Infante is not there because of "popularity" or "marketing."

Manager selections take these two things out of the equation.

Votto got screwed, and if it doesn't bother you because it's all a big joke, then why even follow baseball at all?

It's all just a game and it doesn't matter anyway, I guess.

It's neat to know the history of the game and all, but to constantly use it to argue against people being rightfully upset about transgressions sort of makes you wonder why someone pours that much time into memorizing what must be "meaningless" facts.

[George Anderson]

Did Votto have anything in his contract that if he made the AS team he would get a bonus?? I'd understand him being a little peaved if he missed out on a nice bonus but otherwise he should just chalk it up as one of those things that show life isn't fair. Take a nice three day break and don't worry about it but seek vengence for the snub in the second half.

[westofyou]

I think he's overlooking the fact that Infante is not there because of "popularity" or "marketing."

Manager selections take these two things out of the equation.

Votto got screwed, and if it doesn't bother you because it's all a big joke, then why even follow baseball at all?

It's all just a game and it doesn't matter anyway, I guess.

It's neat to know the history of the game and all, but to constantly use it to argue against people being rightfully upset about transgressions sort of makes you wonder why someone pours that much time into memorizing what must be "meaningless" facts.
Oh please, at least know what the voting rules are before you try a back handed insult.

Player voting (16 players): Eight pitchers (five starters and three relievers) and one back-up player for each position are elected by the players, coaches, and managers.

It is a popularity contest, do you think they actually pour over the stats as they make their choices at their locker?

[westofyou]

I didn't know what you were referring to here, but lo and behold....

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60255

[Dom Heffner]

Fact: Omar Infante is there and Votto isn't.

People are going to be upset about that regardless of Graig Nettles being snubbed 30 years ago.

And I thought I used a forehand, to be honest.:)

Gosh, I didn't realize Omar Infante was so popular-and I believe he was Manuel's choice, no?

The guy could barely qualify for the bstting title and this should all be hunk-dorey because Ford Frick overrode the fans sometime mid last century...

[Dom Heffner]

Did Votto have anything in his contract that if he made the AS team he would get a bonus?? I'd understand him being a little peaved if he missed out on a nice bonus but otherwise he should just chalk it up as one of those things that show life isn't fair. Take a nice three day break and don't worry about it but seek vengence for the snub in the second half.

As long as there people willing to accept unfairness, sure it will always be that way.

[westofyou]

Fact: Omar Infante is there and Votto isn't.

People are going to be upset about that regardless of Graig Nettles being snubbed 30 years ago.

And I thought I used a forehand, to be honest.:)

Gosh, I didn't realize Omar Infante was so popular-and I believe he was Manuel's choice, no?

The guy could barely qualify for the bstting title and this should all be hunk-dorey because Ford Frick overrode the fans sometime mid last century...

Yes you're right, history never matters, the now is all we need to read this situation, thanks for clarifying your position on it.

Baseball changed its rules this season, allowing each All-Star manager to designate one player who can re-enter the game after leaving, which essentially means “utility man” is now an All-Star slot.

Hence the multi position BS, still somehow coaches, managers and players voted enough times for Omar to have him considered for the role.

Just be glad it wasn't Miguel Cairo.

[GAC]

Charlie Manuel is a buffoon, and the part of the reason - the rest belongs to fan voting - why the AL will once again have WS home field advantage. ;)

I can understand Votto not getting the 1B start because again it's fan voting doing so, and Votto's popularity outside of Cincy is not as well recognized as some. In fact, I can understand the fan's not putting numerous deserving players in because it has become such a popularity contest.

But the manager can help to offset that to some degree with his reserve picks, and Charlie blows it with selections such as Infante.

Jayson Stark.... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/allstar10/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=5354376


If the game is going to "count," a manager needs a guy with a little versatility. I get that. And I know that's why Omar Infante is on this team. But yikes. How can Joey Votto not be heading for Anaheim, while a guy with a mere 156 at-bats, fewer homers (one) than Yovani Gallardo and fewer extra-base hits (nine) than Wilson Valdez makes the cut? Memo to MLB: It's the All-Star Game! It's for the best players in baseball, not for guys who have started 42 games all year.

Now Infante doesn’t deserve scorn because a manager was simply foolish and stupid enough to select him over others. But Manuel had plenty better choices among utility men, if that's what he was going for.

But Manuel's reasoning for selecting Howard over Votto to be a reserve, and then hiding behind "Both Votto and Howard are having good years, but Howard is 'my guy'" is laughable. Yeah Charlie, I know he plays for you, and he's having a good year, but who is more deserving?

And not only is Joey more deserving then Howard, but he's right there with Pujols....

Pujols .305 BA .413 OB% .567 SLG% .980 OPS
Votto .312 BA .412 OB% .572 SLG% .984 OPS

But here's another knock on fickled fan voting.....

I understand Heyward won't be playing due to the DL, but he was still voted in when there were several OFers who were more deserving - like Rasmus, Werth, or Willingham.

And why no Pelfrey from the Mets?

[westofyou]

Where's Matt Latos?

Numerous cases can be made, including Latos over Rhodes.

This happens EVERY year, just not very much lately in Cincinnati, hence the outrage.

[GAC]

This happens EVERY year, just not very much lately in Cincinnati, hence the outrage.

You're absolutely right woy. I'm mainly upset at the system utilized to select the starting all-stars, as well as the reserves. You can't completely eliminate human error, but you can minimize it.

[RFS62]

The All Star game means nothing now in the grand scheme of things. It used to be for pride. That ship sailed long ago.

Sadly, Simple Bud thinks giving home field advantage to the winner somehow makes it "count" more. It doesn't. It's a glorified exhibition game, and I'm all right with that, except for the idiotic home field advantage aspect.

It is true, however, that having an All Star appearance on your resume is used in negotiations. And it is a nice thing to have once you're out of the game.

But every year there's a snub or two. Makes for nice copy for writers and talking heads for a few days.

As has been pointed out, Joey is getting a ton more accolades by being snubbed than he would have had he been voted in or chosen by Manual.

And if he makes it now, he'll be hailed as a guy who was wronged and now gets the credit he deserved all along.

[westofyou]

Did Votto have anything in his contract that if he made the AS team he would get a bonus?? I'd understand him being a little peaved if he missed out on a nice bonus but otherwise he should just chalk it up as one of those things that show life isn't fair. Take a nice three day break and don't worry about it but seek vengence for the snub in the second half.

Rhodes gets 25K..... Omar Infante gets 50K (bet the Braves thought they never would have to pay that)

[George Anderson]

As long as there people willing to accept unfairness, sure it will always be that way.

Yea maybe Votto can throw a temper tantrum in his next game, get kicked out and send a message that his snub wasn't fair. That seemed to accomplish alot.

[savafan]

I'll say this. Votto may not have been popular outside of Cincinnati before the AS snub, but now everyone knows his name.

[GAC]

Yea maybe Votto can throw a temper tantrum in his next game

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Votto has shown nothing but class over this whole thing. It's the fans and media types who are giving the "snub" far more attention then Joey.

[George Anderson]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Votto has shown nothing but class over this whole thing. It's the fans and media types who are giving the "snub" far more attention then Joey.

There were people who attributed Votto's ejection yesterday to his being angry over his AS snub.

[Raisor]

There were people who attributed Votto's ejection yesterday to his being angry over his AS snub.

then those people haven't noticed Joey arguing strikes all season.

[Dom Heffner]

Yea maybe Votto can throw a temper tantrum in his next game, get kicked out and send a message that his snub wasn't fair. That seemed to accomplish alot.

Yeah and maybe can just keep saying it is what it is so we get Omar Infante every year.

Look- there are always duplication snubs. You don't need both Willingham abd Hart. They are the same guy.

But if you are going to have an event called "the all-star game" and however you set up the rules allows for something like this to happen, people have a right to call it out.

Acceptance never fixed anything.

[VR]

Rhodes gets 25K..... Omar Infante gets 50K (bet the Braves thought they never would have to pay that)

Perhaps Manuel was trying to stick it to the Braves.

My biggest fear is having the ML game erode into the NBA and NFL embarrassments.

[RBA]

then those people haven't noticed Joey arguing strikes all season.

They haven't noticed him throwing his helmet to the ground.

He acted like a child yesterday.

[GAC]

They haven't noticed him throwing his helmet to the ground.

He acted like a child yesterday.

And publicly said afterwards that he deserved to get thrown out of the game.

But unless people are mind readers, I don't see how they can connect his ejection being motivated by the AS snub. How do they know that?

[VR]

then those people haven't noticed Joey arguing strikes all season.

yeah, he does need to get that under control.

[savafan]

I'm not so sure taking the vote away from the fans is the answer. The fans didn't select Ryan Howard or Omar Infante.

[George Anderson]

And publicly said afterwards that he deserved to get thrown out of the game.

But unless people are mind readers, I don't see how they can connect his ejection being motivated by the AS snub. How do they know that?

I agree, but there were several people on this board yesterday that were claiming that was part of the reason he acted the way he did.

IMO The whole thing is silly. The AS game to me is nothing but a "Dog n Pony" show. Yea Votto got snubbed but so what. He gets three days off to revive himself and get ready for what really matters and that is the playoff run. If he does have hard feelings for being snubbed then take it out with his bat in the second half of the season.

[fearofpopvol1]

The thing that bothers me about the All Star game is the World Series home field advantage. If they truly want to make the All Star game about the fans, then leave the home field advantage element out. If they want to include the home field advantage element, than the best players should be the ones playing. I know "best" is a bit arbitrary, but let's just say there shouldn't be any "glaring" omissions, hence why Votto should definitely be in.

[GAC]

Votto could end up having the same "problem" that Larkin had, as far as fan voting, getting the starting nod in the AS game, because of being in the "shadows" of a very popular player at his position. Larkin had Ozzie, and Joey has Albert.

Barry came into the league in '86. He made his first appearance in '88, but didn't get his first starting nod until '93, then again in 96 (Smith retired after 96). For the most part, he was Smith's backup in a majority of them, and not because Smith was necessarily the better SS, but because of his popularity and greater recognition.

Plus Barry couldn't do back flips either. ;)

[Always Red]

Plus Barry couldn't do back flips either. ;)

I bet he could; Barry Larkin was a fantastic athlete.

It just wasn't Larkin's way. :beerme:

[VR]

Votto could end up having the same "problem" that Larkin had, as far as fan voting, getting the starting nod in the AS game, because of being in the "shadows" of a very popular player at his position. Larkin had Ozzie, and Joey has Albert.

Barry came into the league in '86. He made his first appearance in '88, but didn't get his first starting nod until '93, then again in 96 (Smith retired after 96). For the most part, he was Smith's backup in a majority of them, and not because Smith was necessarily the better SS, but because of his popularity and greater recognition.

Plus Barry couldn't do back flips either. ;)

That's a great example GAC. With electronic voting becoming so prevalent.....I think it would be good to let fans have comparable, sortable stats for each position.....so they could at least be educated along with their expected allegience to their own teams. A bit altruistic I know....but it may at least provide better guidance for the average fan.

[RBA]

That's a great example GAC. With electronic voting becoming so prevalent.....I think it would be good to let fans have comparable, sortable stats for each position.....so they could at least be educated along with their expected allegience to their own teams. A bit altruistic I know....but it may at least provide better guidance for the average fan.

And the computer should ask them a question> "You voted for Ozzie Smith who is batting .30 points lower than Barry Larkin and no longer has the the fielding range of Barry Larkin. Do you want to comfirm your vote for Ozzie Smith?"

[VR]

And the computer should ask them a question> "You voted for Ozzie Smith who is batting .30 points lower than Barry Larkin and no longer has the the fielding range of Barry Larkin. Do you want to comfirm your vote for Ozzie Smith?"

Brilliant

[blumj]

I'm not so sure taking the vote away from the fans is the answer. The fans didn't select Ryan Howard or Omar Infante.

Right, people always blame fan voting, but the fans picked Mauer and Morneau and Pujols and Hanley and Longoria and Cano and Wright and Braun, what a terrible job they do. If they left it up to managers, the teams would probably be crawling with their own team's players and bunches of Omar Infantes, Alex Coras, Willie Bloomquists, Miguel Cairos. And loogies, gotta have 3 lefties in the pen.

[GAC]

I'd have to say that a majority of the voting is by the casual fan. And what I mean by "casual", and not in a derogatory way at all, are those that love the game, love to go or take their family to see the local team and favorite players because of all the other enjoyable reasons (atmosphere, tradition, etc) other then in-depth statistical analysis and comparison. It's just not their "cup of tea" or why they follow. And that is all fine; but it's why fans shouldn't be selecting the All- Stars.


With electronic voting becoming so prevalent.....I think it would be good to let fans have comparable, sortable stats for each position.....so they could at least be educated along with their expected allegience to their own teams. A bit altruistic I know....but it may at least provide better guidance for the average fan.

They still have to know and understand what they were looking at. The average, or casual, fan would look at OPS and VORP with crossed eyes. ;)

But a lot of that stuff is already available all over the 'net for those that really want to take the time and do the research. It bores the casual fan and simply doesn't hold their interest.

[OnBaseMachine]

There were people who attributed Votto's ejection yesterday to his being angry over his AS snub.

I think the ejection yesterday was from built up anger from getting horrible strikes called on him all week. I'm sure getting snubbed added to the anger but if you go back and watch some of his atbats last week, he had some absolutely horrible pitches called for strikes again him. Especially against Roy Halladay and the Phillies. Getting thrown out yesterday in the first inning wasn't a smart move and I hope it doesn't happen again but I don't blame him for being angry.

[BCubb2003]

It's the the All ... Star ... team after all.

[VR]

I agree with you gentlemen, but isn't that already available to any fan that wants to do such research and comparison?

I'd have to say that a majority of the voting is by the casual fan. And what I mean by "casual", and not in a derogatory way at all, are those that love the game, love to go or take their family to see the local team and favorite players because of all the other enjoyable reasons (atmosphere, tradition, etc) other then in-depth statistical analysis and comparison. It's just not their "cup of tea" or why they follow. And that is all fine; but it's why fans shouldn't be selecting the All- Stars.

The average, or casual, fan would look at you with crossed eyes if you asked them what OPS is. ;)

You're right, which is why it would be nice to put those stats in front of the casual fan.....

[VR]

I'd have to say that a majority of the voting is by the casual fan. And what I mean by "casual", and not in a derogatory way at all, are those that love the game, love to go or take their family to see the local team and favorite players because of all the other enjoyable reasons (atmosphere, tradition, etc) other then in-depth statistical analysis and comparison. It's just not their "cup of tea" or why they follow. And that is all fine; but it's why fans shouldn't be selecting the All- Stars.



They still have to know and understand what they were looking at. The average, or casual, fan would look at you with crossed eyes if you asked them what OPS is. ;)

But a lot of that stuff is already available all over the 'net for those that really want to take the time and do the research. It bores the casual fan and simply doesn't hold their interest.


Which is why you then use RBA's 'popup' suggestion. :)