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corkedbat
07-04-2010, 02:29 AM
We've heard a lot of talk about starters and relievers but not that much talk about a bat to add. I went through the teams toward the lower half of the standings and came with a list of 20 names.

Kinda slim pickings. Some probably aren't worth having and some might not even be made available by their teams. Which, if any, would you want or would you just stand pat with Heisey, Gomes, Nix & Dickerson? Or are there other names you'd pursue?

Vernon Wells (TOR)
Ty Wiggington (BAL)
Adam Jones (BAL)
Nick Markakis (BAL)
Austin Kearns (CLE)
Matt Laporta (CLE)
David DeJesus (KC)
Jose Guillen, (KC)
Alex Rios (CHI)
Carlos Quentin (CHI)
Andruw Jones (CHI)
Michael Taylor (OAK)
Cody Ross (FLA)
Josh Willingham (WAS)
Adam Dunn (WAS)
Garrett Jones (PIT)
Lance Berkman (HOU)
Carlos Lee (HOU)
Chris Young (ARI)
Justin Upton (ARI)

camisadelgolf
07-04-2010, 03:38 AM
The last I heard, the Reds lead the NL in runs, and you're thinking they need to look at adding a bat? If it were a shortstop, I'd understand, but next to the corner infield positions, the outfield is the least of the team's concerns.

Ron Madden
07-04-2010, 03:46 AM
The last I heard, the Reds lead the NL in runs, and you're thinking they need to look at adding a bat? If it were a shortstop, I'd understand, but next to the corner infield positions, the outfield is the least of the team's concerns.



While the Reds do lead the league in runs scored and the outfield isn't a glaring concern. There is always room for improvement. :)

nemesis
07-04-2010, 05:40 AM
Oh you didn't hear? They went out and got OF help. He is in Louisville, a switch hitter, and OPSing .889.

He should be up shortly after the All Star Break.

mth123
07-04-2010, 07:13 AM
Oh you didn't hear? They went out and got OF help. He is in Louisville, a switch hitter, and OPSing .889.

He should be up shortly after the All Star Break.

I'm not a big Mathews fan, but he's not the Plague Taveras was. I like the fact that he can switch hit and run. He's basically a replacement for Dickerson who could get some starts in LF and CF while hitting from the left side. I like him as much as Nix for that job and maybe as much as a healthy Dickerson. If having him around gives the front office the security blanket that allows them to deal Stubbs or Heisey for a TOR arm, then it could be a key move that goes un-noticed.

mth123
07-04-2010, 07:36 AM
A name I like is Angel Pagan. If the Reds see the need to dump some bucks in order to take on a big fish, I think a Harang for Pagan deal makes some sense. The Mets are getting Beltran back after the break so Pagan becomes a bench player. Harang would slide into the back of their rotation and the dollars saved might allow the Reds to add other needed pieces. Deal Harang and some cash (but still net a savings) for Pagan then deal Alonso and Heisey for Lee or Oswalt. Pagan becomes a more natural partner for Stubbs and Gomes while the rotation upgrades from Harang to a TOR guy to boost the team down the stretch and match-up better in the hoped for play-off series.

nemesis
07-04-2010, 07:52 AM
A name I like is Angel Pagan. If the Reds see the need to dump some bucks in order to take on a big fish, I think a Harang for Pagan deal makes some sense. The Mets are getting Beltran back after the break so Pagan becomes a bench player. Harang would slide into the back of their rotation and the dollars saved might allow the Reds to add other needed pieces. Deal Harang and some cash (but still net a savings) for Pagan then deal Alonso and Heisey for Lee or Oswalt. Pagan becomes a more natural partner for Stubbs and Gomes while the rotation upgrades from Harang to a TOR guy to boost the team down the stretch and match-up better in the hoped for play-off series.


Nice trade idea.

Pagan would be a nice addition. I am a big fan of Chris Carter. He is really blocked out there. I'd be all about moving Harang, Cash and Heisey to the Mets for Carter and Pagan.

Pagan .356 OBP / 15 SB
Phillips .368 OBP
Votto .414 OBP
Rolen .368 OBP
Gomes .344 OBP
Bruce .353 OBP
Cabrera .284 OBP Wheeze... (Janish .345 OBP / Just saying)
Hanigan .468 OBP

That's a sick lineup.

Hernandez
Cairo
Janish
Stubbs
Carter

Not a bad bench.

Lee/Haren/Oswalt
Arroyo
Cueto
Volquez
Leake/Bailey/Wood

Sick rotation.

membengal
07-04-2010, 08:33 AM
I've made my peace with the fact that GMJ will be along shortly. I think if he stays in a back-up role, it will be fine.

I also hope that if he does end up with a lot more at-bats than would seem adviseable, that he catches some GABP rejuvenation.

jojo
07-04-2010, 10:14 AM
If Pagan gets moved, it'll probably be to Seattle.

Wouldn't Josh Hamilton have looked good in left this year?

Since the trade, he's basically doubled Volquez' WAR and produced roughly $38M worth of surplus value to Volquez's $20M...

Ghosts of 1990
07-04-2010, 10:20 AM
Upton, lol. Get him for Ondrusek and Harang while we're at it.

Ghosts of 1990
07-04-2010, 10:35 AM
Upton, Nick Markakis and Adam Jones are still untouchable, let's disregard them from the list.

membengal
07-04-2010, 10:37 AM
Nick Markakis has 3 homeruns and an OPS around .800. If the O's really have him as untouchable, they are more lost as a franchise than the Pirates.

jojo
07-04-2010, 10:44 AM
Nick Markakis has 3 homeruns and an OPS around .800. If the O's really have him as untouchable, they are more lost as a franchise than the Pirates.

Seriously? If Jocketty decided Markakis was the key for the playoffs, what Reds players would be sufficient to get him?

mth123
07-04-2010, 10:45 AM
If Pagan gets moved, it'll probably be to Seattle.

Wouldn't Josh Hamilton have looked good in left this year?

Since the trade, he's basically doubled Volquez' WAR and produced roughly $38M worth of surplus value to Volquez's $20M...

Why would a rebuilding Mariners team want a guy like Pagan who turns 30 in 2011? Seem like the Mets would be after Lee and the Mariners would probably want Younger guys. Josh Thole, Chirs Carter and Wilmer Flores would be a good package.

membengal
07-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Edited.

jojo
07-04-2010, 10:46 AM
Why would a rebuilding Mariners team want a guy like Pagan who turns 30 in 2011? Seem like the Mets would be after Lee and the Mariners would probably want Younger guys. Josh Thole, Chirs Carter and Wilmer Flores would be a good package.

Because Pagan would be perfect for them, they'd get something else from the Mets too and the Ms aren't rebuilding in the sense you're suggesting.

membengal
07-04-2010, 10:49 AM
Seriously? If Jocketty decided Markakis was the key for the playoffs, what Reds players would be sufficient to get him?

I choose not to engage you on this. Thanks.

mth123
07-04-2010, 10:53 AM
Because Pagan would be perfect for them, they'd get something else from the Mets too and the Ms aren't rebuilding in the sense you're suggesting.

They have no legit middle of the order bats. Teams that can't hit in the 3, 4, and 5 holes or don't have a legitimate complement of starting pitchers (with Lee and Bedard likely gone after this year its pretty ugly after King Felix) are rebuilding. The M's need to use their chips to get pitching and power IMO. Its why a Wood/Alonso package would look good to them.

Orenda
07-04-2010, 11:17 AM
*Alex Gordon*

He could platoon with Gomes in LF and spell Rolen occasionally without losing as much offense in the lineup. Also he would be insurance in the event that Rolen has to miss any time with an injury. Off the bench, he can provide just as much pop as Laynce Nix while reaching base more. Lastly, consider the fact that he would be under team control for awhile which fits more towards the philosophy of being competitive beyond just this season.

I think he would be the perfect target for the Reds if he could be had from KC.

mth123
07-04-2010, 11:22 AM
*Alex Gordon*

He could platoon with Gomes in LF and spell Rolen occasionally without losing as much offense in the lineup. Also he would be insurance in the event that Rolen has to miss any time with an injury. Off the bench, he can provide just as much pop as Laynce Nix while reaching base more. Lastly, consider the fact that he would be under team control for awhile which fits more towards the philosophy of being competitive beyond just this season.

I think he would be the perfect target for the Reds if he could be had from KC.

Love this idea. I'd like to get somebody who can play CF, but would love to get Gordon on the cheap as well.

HokieRed
07-04-2010, 11:33 AM
If Pagan gets moved, it'll probably be to Seattle.

Wouldn't Josh Hamilton have looked good in left this year?

Since the trade, he's basically doubled Volquez' WAR and produced roughly $38M worth of surplus value to Volquez's $20M...

Thanks for the useful data on a trade some of us never liked. Simplest way to avoid compounding the mistake is, IMHO, to offer the M's Volquez straight up for Lee. That is, if we must have Lee, which I doubt.

mth123
07-04-2010, 11:44 AM
Volquez will be coming back and providing the Reds a legit rotation arm while Hamilton has been replaced with more than adequate production. As the team contends the combo of Volquez and lesser OF is better to have than Hamilton and some ham and egger in the rotation. I'd make the Hamilton for Volquez deal 100 times out of 100. The Reds made the right move IMO.

mth123
07-04-2010, 12:11 PM
MLB Trade Rumor suggests that the Marlins might be making Cody Ross available. He's not a guy I'd give up a lot for but is another guy who might make sense if the Reds were to deal Heisey. The Marlins are said to be looking for help in the pen. I Wonder if Burton and Fisher along with a lower level guy like a Sulbaran would interest them.

jojo
07-04-2010, 12:13 PM
They have no legit middle of the order bats. Teams that can't hit in the 3, 4, and 5 holes or don't have a legitimate complement of starting pitchers (with Lee and Bedard likely gone after this year its pretty ugly after King Felix) are rebuilding.

Bedard is probably likely going to stay in Seattle and Pineda will probably be in the rotation too. They have a gaggle to fight for the remaining two spots.

Pagan/Flores makes a lot of sense for their organization. They certainly don't HAVE to make Bavasi cookies by doggedly looking to cookie cutter elements-i.e. sock for the 4th spot... pitcher type X for spot Y.

Their current team is better talent-wise than its record too.

jojo
07-04-2010, 12:15 PM
Volquez will be coming back and providing the Reds a legit rotation arm while Hamilton has been replaced with more than adequate production. As the team contends the combo of Volquez and lesser OF is better to have than Hamilton and some ham and egger in the rotation. I'd make the Hamilton for Volquez deal 100 times out of 100. The Reds made the right move IMO.

Hopefully you're right about Volquez but he's a question mark and Gomes isn't even half of Hamilton.

jojo
07-04-2010, 12:16 PM
Thanks for the useful data on a trade some of us never liked. Simplest way to avoid compounding the mistake is, IMHO, to offer the M's Volquez straight up for Lee. That is, if we must have Lee, which I doubt.

I wouldn't do that from a Reds standpoint.

Scrap Irony
07-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Wigington was the name I liked from that list as a fourth OF/ corner IF. (He'd take ABs away from Cairo, Nix, and Heisey and will probably outproduce all of them this year.)

But then I saw Gordon. He could do the same at less cost and under team control. (Less cost in prospects too, I'm assuming.)

Would KC agree to a Francsico for Gordon deal? He seems like a KC player, in that he's BA driven and allergic to BBs, for the most part. He profiles as a 3B Jose Guillen and that has some serious value. (If he struggles to play the hot corner, both LF and DH spots would be available as well.)

jojo
07-04-2010, 12:24 PM
alex gordon is in baseball purgatory and the hands controlling his fate are erratic...he's a gamble for a stretch run too. The Reds need an upgrade they can put in the bank this season.

Josh Willingham might fit that description.

Dang it though. The Sox gave away Swisher. He's look good in left too.

mth123
07-04-2010, 12:33 PM
Bedard is probably likely going to stay in Seattle and Pineda will probably be in the rotation too. They have a gaggle to fight for the remaining two spots.

Pagan/Flores makes a lot of sense for their organization. They certainly don't HAVE to make Bavasi cookies by doggedly looking to cookie cutter elements-i.e. sock for the 4th spot... pitcher type X for spot Y.

Their current team is better talent-wise than its record too.

Perhaps the M's would like Chris Dickerson in a deal for Lee. 30ish, decent defender, gets on base, his injury shouldn't impact 2011. If they would take him instead of a younger player, I think everyone in Redsland would get behind it.

As for the sock element, they had a chance to destroy the AL West this year had they gone and gotten a legit middle of the order bat. I know most don't believe that these players are on a team any more and that the strengths of one has impact on others, but its still true no matter how hard we try to calculate hypothetical, individual run values for everything. The M's tried to get too cute with the alternate route and left themsleves short IMO. Getting great value is something I'm all for, but there has to be a legitimate core of production to build it around. A guy like Pagan is a great guy to have on a team as one of the supporting cast members, but if I'm dealing Lee, I want potential lead actors. Flores certainly might qualify.

jojo
07-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Perhaps the M's would like Chris Dickerson in a deal for Lee. 30ish, decent defender, gets on base, his injury shouldn't impact 2011. If they would take him instead of a younger player, I think everyone in Redsland would get behind it.

I'd be surprised if Z and Jocketty haven't talked about Dickerson if they've talked since Z took over the Ms FO.


The M's tried to get too cute with the alternate route and left themsleves short IMO. Getting great value is something I'm all for, but there has to be a legitimate core of production to build it around. A guy like Pagan is a great guy to have on a team as one of the supporting cast members, but if I'm dealing Lee, I want potential lead actors. Flores certainly might qualify.

Really how many impact bats did the Ms pass on? Vlad would've been a great answer at DH but Jr was an edict passed down from on high and also, Z had a budget limit too.

It might look like Z had a drive going and enigmatically ran out of bounds before crossing the goal line but what he did was build a roster that looked like a 85 win team under some constraints from ownership that limited his ability to maneuver. So the Ms were built on paper to play within striking distance which would've given Z leverage for July moves but the roster also had zero margin of error and no flexibility from the bench. Then everything that could've went wrong did including injuries to key players and half of the lineup starting out in career worst slumps.

I don't think Z was being too cute at all.

mth123
07-04-2010, 01:05 PM
I'd be surprised if Z and Jocketty haven't talked about Dickerson if they've talked since Z took over the Ms FO.

I wouldn't either, but like Pagan nice role players can be had w/o dealing your top chips. They should use Lee to get potential game changers. If they want Pagan, he can be had for a lot less.

jojo
07-04-2010, 01:13 PM
I wouldn't either, but like Pagan nice role players can be had w/o dealing your top chips. They should use Lee to get potential game changers. If they want Pagan, he can be had for a lot less.

I think we need to be realistic about Lee's return though. Pagan is an above average major leaguer right now (basically a 3 WAR player) who fits the Ms philosophy perfectly. Flores can probably be a good player in several years-it's real easy to dream on 17-18 year olds but that's why the Mets might trade him-he's a ways off.

That's a good haul for 15 starts. Maybe since so many teams are seemingly interested, Lee commands more but I'm not ready to assume he'll bring legit game changes that aren't without tons of risk.

I'm not sure the Mets would part with Pagan very easily BTW-he's more valuable than alot of people give him credit for being.

mth123
07-04-2010, 01:24 PM
I think we need to be realistic about Lee's return though. Pagan is an above average major leaguer right now (basically a 3 WAR player) who fits the Ms philosophy perfectly. Flores can probably be a good player in several years-it's real easy to dream on 17-18 year olds but that's why the Mets might trade him-he's a ways off.

That's a good haul for 15 starts. Maybe since so many teams are seemingly interested, Lee commands more but I'm not ready to assume he'll bring legit game changes that aren't without tons of risk.

I'm not sure the Mets would part with Pagan very easily BTW-he's more valuable than alot of people give him credit for being.

The Mets are probably too worried about Beltran to deal Pagan this year (too bad I'd like the Reds to get him). But if everybody is healthy he's a bench guy and if you can fill a hole by dealing him, you do it. He's like Dickerson as a mid .700 OPS guy in CF who plays decent defense he's got value. Put him in a corner and I'm not so sure you wouldn't always be looking for an upgrade.

Personally, I think he's better than Francoeur, but I'd bet he wouldn't start over him.

Pagan a short term fix and the M's are dealing a guy who should bring longer term solutions.

HokieRed
07-04-2010, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't do that from a Reds standpoint.


Neither would I probably. I don't particularly like the idea of dealing for Lee from the principled standpoint that I don't really care about winning with rentals. But I'd be interested in your reasons for not going Volquez for the Lee rental. Team's accomplished what it has this year with no contribution from Volquez whatever; looks like a definition of expendable.

Scrap Irony
07-04-2010, 06:52 PM
Really how many impact bats did the Ms pass on? Vlad would've been a great answer at DH but Jr was an edict passed down from on high and also, Z had a budget limit too.

It might look like Z had a drive going and enigmatically ran out of bounds before crossing the goal line but what he did was build a roster that looked like a 85 win team under some constraints from ownership that limited his ability to maneuver. So the Ms were built on paper to play within striking distance which would've given Z leverage for July moves but the roster also had zero margin of error and no flexibility from the bench. Then everything that could've went wrong did including injuries to key players and half of the lineup starting out in career worst slumps.

I don't think Z was being too cute at all.

C
Barajas
Hernandez
B. Molina
IRod

1B
Branyan
LaRoche
Thome

2B
Hudson

3B
Beltre

OF
Glaus
Byrd
Damon


Those would have far better choices for the M's. And each of them (aside from perhaps Beltre, who Seattle could and should have re-signed) was available late into the offseason.

Will M
07-04-2010, 07:07 PM
Neither would I probably. I don't particularly like the idea of dealing for Lee from the principled standpoint that I don't really care about winning with rentals. But I'd be interested in your reasons for not going Volquez for the Lee rental. Team's accomplished what it has this year with no contribution from Volquez whatever; looks like a definition of expendable.

IMO we should want to add a healthy Volquez plus a 2nd TOR starter to the 2010 team. thats a pretty strong 1-2 punch in the playoffs.

plus with Harang & possibly Arroyo gone after this season I have to think Walt has Volquez pencilled in the 2011 rotation (i would).

jojo
07-04-2010, 07:18 PM
C
Barajas
Hernandez
B. Molina
IRod

1B
Branyan
LaRoche
Thome

2B
Hudson

3B
Beltre

OF
Glaus
Byrd
Damon


Those would have far better choices for the M's. And each of them (aside from perhaps Beltre, who Seattle could and should have re-signed) was available late into the offseason.

The catchers are all nonstarter ideas for what should be obvious reasons (its hard to criticize a team for preferring their own inhouse turds versus paying for someone else's castoffs when they have other issues to address and ramon's regression is going to really suck for us after the ASB).

Second base was settled with Figgins and third base was were Lopez took up residence AFTER it was clear that Beltre wasn't going to resign with the Ms despite their efforts.

Branyan has already been discussed relative to the Ms in explicit detail so he also was clearly not an option. When did Glaus become an outfielder? Also, Bradley's acquisition limited options which were limited anyway by Silva's contract.

The devil is always in the details and the vast majority of that list simply weren't real options for the Ms.

The most valid criticism is what they did at DH given Thome/Vlad might have been signable but that was an ownership thing.

Scrap Irony
07-04-2010, 07:55 PM
The catchers are all nonstarter ideas for what should be obvious reasons (its hard to criticize a team for preferring their own inhouse turds when they have other issues to address and ramon's regression is going to really suck for us after the ASB).

If he regresses, you mean. He could, as he's played a fair amount, but Baker's been pretty smart (and the team's been healthy) about keeping him fresh.

And the other options are all much better (and cheap enough) that they should have been "starters" for Seattle.


Second base was settled with Figgins and third base was were Lopez took up residence AFTER it was clear that Beltre wasn't going to resign with the Ms despite their efforts.

I hear best efforts and towing the line, but what it comes down to is poor choices. Why couldn't Figgins play third (as he has in the past, a great deal) and Seattle brought in Hudson? Again, another poor choice.


Branyan has already been discussed relative to the Ms in explicit detail so he also was clearly not an option. When did Glaus become an outfielder? Also, Bradley's acquisition limited options which were limited anyway by Silva's contract.

The devil is always in the details and the vast majority of that list simply weren't real options for the Ms.

The most valid criticism is what they did at DH given Thome/Vlad might have been signable but that was an ownership thing.


Glaus played OF most of last season and has extensive time roaming out there. Bradley for Silva? Why grab a headcase with questionable OF skills especially after the year he had with Chicago? At least Silva only hurts you one day in five rather than every game. (Well, every game he deigns to play.)

Z's details have been horrid any way you slice it. His team-- despite a $100 million budget-- hasn't improved one iota from the team that was handed him two years ago.

jojo
07-04-2010, 08:19 PM
If he regresses, you mean. He could, as he's played a fair amount, but Baker's been pretty smart (and the team's been healthy) about keeping him fresh.

And the other options are all much better (and cheap enough) that they should have been "starters" for Seattle.

RH hasn't hit like this since 2006. He'll regress significantly.


I hear best efforts and towing the line, but what it comes down to is poor choices. Why couldn't Figgins play third (as he has in the past, a great deal) and Seattle brought in Hudson? Again, another poor choice.

Because the Ms want him to play second. It was a good choice BTW. Lopez has been good at thirdbase where he's significantly improved his defensive value. Figgins is getting more and more comfortable at second.

Their bats? Clearly they are better than the slumps they've started in...


Glaus played OF most of last season and has extensive time roaming out there. Bradley for Silva? Why grab a headcase with questionable OF skills especially after the year he had with Chicago? At least Silva only hurts you one day in five rather than every game. (Well, every game he deigns to play.)

Troy Glaus???? My god I can't imagine him in Safeco's left field. When and where did he play OF?

Why Bradley for Silva? Because they unloaded Silva for something they needed-a guy that brought the skills they value to their offense.


Z's details have been horrid any way you slice it. His team-- despite a $100 million budget-- hasn't improved one iota from the team that was handed him two years ago.

Four key starters have begun the season having career low slumps. Name one entity in the universe that projected that.

Again, the devil is always in the details and we shouldn't gloss over them as the pitchfork is pointy....

mth123
07-04-2010, 08:34 PM
The M's offensive core is two speed based OF (though Ichiro is definately a main man type) and Figgins. That "type" usually fails. Need some pop.

jojo
07-04-2010, 08:49 PM
The M's offensive core is two speed based OF (though Ichiro is definately a main man type) and Figgins. That "type" usually fails. Need some pop.

Nobody thought the Ms would be an offensive juggernaut-clearly offense was going to be their weakest phase. But going into the season, their top 6 bats were projected to have these wOBA's:

.350 ichiro
.340 FG
.340 Figgins
.360 Bradley
.330 Lopez
.330 Kotchman.

In other words, not great shakes but all were at least major league average hitters from a true skill standpoint and all would be expected to bring significant defensive value too. Those guys just hitting their projections, Lee not missing a month and Wilson being able to play short would result in a dramatically different Ms season even with them punting DH.

It's not a failure of philosophy when 4 of those guys simultaneously have career low slumps to start the season.

And pointing to Branyan ignores that he basically missed all of March/April with his injury (another reason the Ms were unwilling to be locked into a multi0year deal with him)... Even if the Ms buckled inappropriately in Bavasi style regarding Branyan, they'd still have been in the same pickle-too far behind Texas to catch up.

Truthfully, if Texas keeps playing the way they are, no one in the division was going to hang with them anyway.

mth123
07-04-2010, 09:21 PM
Nobody thought the Ms would be an offensive juggernaut-clearly offense was going to be their weakest phase. But going into the season, their top 6 bats were projected to have these wOBA's:

.350 ichiro
.340 FG
.340 Figgins
.360 Bradley
.330 Lopez
.330 Kotchman.

In other words, not great shakes but all were at least major league average hitters from a true skill standpoint and all would be expected to bring significant defensive value too. Those guys just hitting their projections, Lee not missing a month and Wilson being able to play short would result in a dramatically different Ms season even with them punting DH.

It's not a failure of philosophy when 4 of those guys simultaneously have career low slumps to start the season.

And pointing to Branyan ignores that he basically missed all of March/April with his injury (another reason the Ms were unwilling to be locked into a multi0year deal with him)... Even if the Ms buckled inappropriately in Bavasi style regarding Branyan, they'd still have been in the same pickle-too far behind Texas to catch up.

Truthfully, if Texas keeps playing the way they are, no one in the division was going to hang with them anyway.

This whole conversation started by wondering if the M's didn't need a rebuild. They clearly need to upgrade both IF corners and could use a power bat either in LF or DH. They will lose at least one if not two of their top starters and the SS wasn't anything great even in his better days. They need an infusion of high potential building blocks when dealing Lee and that isn't Pagan. Perhaps if he's a throw in as the third or 4th guy but they need a couple of answers to their holes (and yes I think Kotchman and Lopez are clearly holes).

jojo
07-04-2010, 09:23 PM
This whole conversation started by wondering if the M's didn't need a rebuild. They clearly need to upgrade both IF corners and could use a power bat either in LF or DH. They will lose at least one if not two of their top starters and the SS wasn't anything great even in his better days. They need an infusion of high potential building blocks when dealing Lee and that isn't Pagan. Perhaps if he's a throw in as the third or 4th guy but they need a couple of answers to their holes (and yes I think Kotchman and Lopez are clearly holes).

You're seriously undervaluing Pagan and that's really where the conversation began.

mth123
07-04-2010, 09:25 PM
You're seriously undervaluing Pagan and that's really where the conversation began.

Nice player as a 4th OF who gets 300 ABs. As the every day LF he'd be another Kotchman type that you'd want to upgrade. He's also 30 and if he works out he wouldn't be a long term solution anyway. You can get that w/o dealing a top 5 arm in baseball. When dealing that, aim higher.

mth123
07-04-2010, 09:32 PM
Lopez to the Mets to be the stopgap at 2B with Pagan coming to he M's would be a good deal, but Pagan as one of the main guys for Lee would be a waste of resources for the M's IMO.

PuffyPig
07-04-2010, 09:33 PM
OF help?

With Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Heisey, Nix and Dickerson shortly, we don't really need any OF help IMO.

And certainly not to the point where we give up viable prospects for any help.

mth123
07-04-2010, 09:35 PM
OF help?

With Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Heisey, Nix and Dickerson shortly, we don't really need any OF help IMO.

And certainly not to the point where we give up viable prospects for any help.

Some days I agree completely. Its not a desperate situation by any means, but if Heisey goes in a deal for an arm, a lefty hitter who can play some LF and CF who is better than Nix or Dickerson would be a nice addition.

Will M
07-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Some days I agree completely. Its not a desperate situation by any means, but if Heisey goes in a deal for an arm, a lefty hitter who can play some LF and CF who is better than Nix or Dickerson would be a nice addition.

agree.

three issues: first is salary. second is how many trade chips we have. third is prioirty of needs. if (big if) we obtain a TOR arm & have some trade chips left what is needed more. ie the abovementioned lefty hitting OF who would upgrade Nix & Dickerson, upgrade at SS, bullpen arm,etc.

my opinion is that a real TOR arm could be huge for the team. huge. lets just say we got Lee/Haren/Oswalt/Greinke/etc and Volquez is healthy. the 2010 Reds would be a legitimate World Series contender. so if I were Walt i'd get the TOR arm first and then try to upgrade the other positions if possible.