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RedEye
07-05-2010, 11:49 PM
After two more HR tonight, The People's Champion sits at .319 with 21 HR, 59 RBI, and (as of yesterday) a slash line of .412/.572/.984, which rivals his counterpart we all know from the St. Louis Cardinals.

I think we all had high hopes for Votto when he came up, and he certainly showed glimmers of this sort of domination last season, but I have to say I never expected him to be this good.

My questions for RZ are the following:

Is Joey Votto a superstar caliber player?

Can he maintain this sort of performance all year? How about for many years?

If he does do something like this, who are his recent comps? Todd Helton? Jeff Bagwell?

Discuss.

TRF
07-05-2010, 11:59 PM
I said at the end of last year he was approaching Pujols level in terms of production.


Prophet.

LoganBuck
07-06-2010, 12:08 AM
I said at the end of last year he was approaching Pujols level in terms of production.


Prophet.

You say a lot of things.:D

PuffyPig
07-06-2010, 12:15 AM
Votto was an elite player before this season, having the 4th best OPS in the majors.

He's got he best OPS in the NL this year (.036 over Pujols).

It's time everyone fianlly realizes what has been apparent for quite some time.

RedEye
07-06-2010, 12:20 AM
Votto was an elite player before this season, having the 4th best OPS in the majors.

He's got he best OPS in the NL this year (.036 over Pujols).

It's time everyone fianlly realizes what has been apparent for quite some time.

Which is... that he's a superstar player?

Seriously, I know these sorts of labels aren't objectively verifiable, but I wonder at what point Votto will ascend to the pantheon of the games best players. Would he have to put up back-to-back years of this type of production?

When Votto came up, I really thought the Reds were getting a good 1B. I figured he'd be a consistent .280-.290 hitter with 30 HR and 100 RBI. Not All-World, but solid. Now, at the mid-point of 2010, he's looking like he's actually a good notch or two above what I (and many of you, I recall) thought he was. He's gone from solid starter/borderline All-Star to Pujols-challenging good.

RedsManRick
07-06-2010, 12:24 AM
Adrian Gonzalez and Justin Morneau seem like great comps to me.

Screwball
07-06-2010, 12:31 AM
After two more HR tonight, The People's Champion sits at .319 with 21 HR, 59 RBI, and (as of yesterday) a slash line of .412/.572/.984, which rivals his counterpart we all know from the St. Louis Cardinals.


Actually, after tonight, his OPS is at 1.017. Not sure what the slash line numbers are exactly, but I know he's over the elusive 1.000 OPS barrier.

REDblooded
07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
I'd say he's well on his way to entering that territory... Not sure the claim can be made though until the rest of baseball realizes it... His current all-star predicament suggests that's not the case. yet.

RedEye
07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
Actually, after tonight, his OPS is at 1.017. Not sure what the slash line numbers are exactly, but I know he's over the elusive 1.000 OPS barrier.

Right. When I posted the thread, I wasn't able to find updated stats yet. Good to see Joey over the 1.000 line.

Homer Bailey
07-06-2010, 12:34 AM
.418/.599/1.017

Ghosts of 1990
07-06-2010, 12:40 AM
Morneau is a good comp. I wish he was a few years younger but yes he is a superstar and our superstar

Playadlc
07-06-2010, 04:39 AM
Yes.

I mean, isn't Joey Votto the NL MVP if we vote today?

-Leader in OPS
-Leader in HR
-Tied 4th in RBI
-Hitting .318, 4th in league

and he even has 7 steals!

And, oh ya, the Reds are in 1st place.

WebScorpion
07-06-2010, 05:01 AM
Yes, he is what we always hoped Sean Casey would grow into.
SuperStar! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/ca.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Plus Plus
07-06-2010, 10:34 AM
Yes.

I mean, isn't Joey Votto the NL MVP if we vote today?

-Leader in OPS
-Leader in HR
-Tied 4th in RBI
-Hitting .318, 4th in league

and he even has 7 steals!

And, oh ya, the Reds are in 1st place.

BBTN guys said that David Wright and Adrian Gonzalez are their top candidates for NL MVP right now. Apparently they don't watch the Reds play.

TRF
07-06-2010, 11:04 AM
Yes, he is what we always hoped Sean Casey would grow into.
SuperStar! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/ca.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

I was thinking this last night. A healthy Sean Casey is ALMOST what Joey Votto is. A healthy Sean Casey was a .950 OPS beast of a hitter.

But Votto is better defensively, and even has a little speed. You could clock Casey with a sun dial.

IMO, the only difference between Votto and Pujols, is this is year three for Votto with Pujols being just a tick better, and possibly younger at the same point. (but who really knows. I think El Duque is 54 years old and he just signed with the Nats.)

I think its a wash between them right now, Votto/Pujols. then the second tier guys: Gonzales, Fielder, Ethier.

Howard is getting exposed as a short career type. Big guy, stats trending downward.

membengal
07-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Votto keeps this up for another month or so and triple crown discussions will start to bubble up. For the record.

Avg for Votto: .318. Prado leading the league at .331. Votto is tied for third.

Votto leading with 21 HR.

Votto 59 RBI. Wright leading the league at 64. Votto is tied for fourth.

The triple crown is one of those weird fun achievements that I have always wanted to see legitimately chased in my lifetime. I was born in 1970, so I have never seen one even seriously challenged.

For some reason, I kinda want to on my baseball fan bucket list.

westofyou
07-06-2010, 11:08 AM
Yes, he is what we always hoped Sean Casey would grow into.
SuperStar! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/ca.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Casey had 1.049 OPS at the AS break 10 years ago, and he was younger.

Johnny Footstool
07-06-2010, 11:10 AM
To be a "superstar," you have to combine talent, production, and hype.

Votto is in the middle of a perfect storm of hype right now. Sportswriters love to point out snubbed All-Stars every year, and this year, Votto is undeniable, so his face and stat line are all over the web and the ESPNs.

Votto is right on the cusp of superstardom. If he makes the All-Star team, he'll be launched into the rarefied air reserved for Pujols, Teixiera, et al.

lollipopcurve
07-06-2010, 11:11 AM
Casey had 1.049 OPS at the AS break 10 years ago, and he was younger.

Votto is better hitter than Casey, and it isn't all that close.

TRF
07-06-2010, 11:17 AM
Votto is better hitter than Casey, and it isn't all that close.

actually it is. the difference between them was health and speed. Votto has both.

But for pure hitting ability, when healthy, Sean Casey was as good as any player in MLB.

lollipopcurve
07-06-2010, 11:23 AM
actually it is. the difference between them was health and speed. Votto has both.

But for pure hitting ability, when healthy, Sean Casey was as good as any player in MLB.

Sorry -- Votto has significantly more power than Casey ever did. He's in a different class.

membengal
07-06-2010, 11:24 AM
Yeah, not seeing the power comp trf, not even close. Votto's power is to all fields, and legit to all fields. Casey was NEVER in that class.

westofyou
07-06-2010, 11:24 AM
Votto is better hitter than Casey, and it isn't all that close.

More power and walks more, Sean Casey had some serious press 10 years ago, dig around and revisit, fame is a fickle lover.

lollipopcurve
07-06-2010, 11:29 AM
More power and walks more, Sean Casey had some serious press 10 years ago, dig around and revisit, fame is a fickle lover.

I know. But thew talk around Casey was "batting title someday" talk. The talk around Votto is inching into "triple crown" territory. The power is a legitimate separator.

Chip R
07-06-2010, 11:34 AM
I know. But thew talk around Casey was "batting title someday" talk. The talk around Votto is inching into "triple crown" territory. The power is a legitimate separator.

Very true. Casey had pretty decent power his first year or two but after that it dropped off. Perhaps it was due to injury but after that he was more of a singles and doubles hitter. I think a lot of Reds fans' views about him are enhanced somewhat because he played on the last Reds winning teams and because he was/is so gregarious.

TRF
07-06-2010, 12:49 PM
I put forth that Casey was only healthy for 2.5 seasons. Now overlooking health as a skill for just a moment and look at his 1999, 2000 and 2004 seasons.



G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS
151 669 594 103 197 42 3 25 99 0 2 61 88 .332 .399 .539 .938
133 545 480 69 151 33 2 20 85 1 0 52 80 .315 .385 .517 .902
146 633 571 101 185 44 2 24 99 2 0 46 36 .324 .381 .534 .915

Casey may have had less HR power, but he was a doubles machine, with big time gap power. He was a guy that probably could have won a batting title or two, but he just couldn't stay healthy. These three seasons were indicative of his talent/skill level. Project them over the course of a 13-15 year career and you have one of the best 1B in the game during that span. Had he stayed healthy, the HR power likely would have increased at least into the low 30's.

2004: 36K's in 633 PA's that's ridiculous for a guy with 24 HR's and 44 2B's.

He just couldn't stay healthy.

Ya know we don't HAVE to tear down players like Casey and Dunn to show that Votto is good.

bucksfan2
07-06-2010, 12:55 PM
I think the one true difference between Votto and Pujols is the strike outs. I think if Votto ever cuts back on the K's then he will be in Pujols territory. After seeing last year and the first half of this season I have little doubt that Votto has the sustainability to be a great offensive player in baseball for a number of years.

As for the Gonzalez comparison I think they are ok but I think Votto will always have a better AVG and Gonzales will be held back numbers wise offensively because of Petco park. I just don't see him leaving there anytime soon as he grew up and was raised in the SD area.

membengal
07-06-2010, 01:04 PM
trf, I don't know how I am "tearing Casey down" by noting the legit difference in power.

TRF
07-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Not saying you in particular, but it does seem to be a Redszone trademark.

And Casey had plenty of power. He just didn't have health. his best seasons, 99 and 04 were separated by 4 years of torn up shoulders. For all the lamenting of what could have been for Jr., I feel the same way about Casey. We could have seen 3 .950+ OPS bats from 2001 on had those two been as healthy as Dunn.

nemesis
07-06-2010, 01:26 PM
So how much more does it cost the team for a LTD for Votto to reach Superstar status? 8 years 160?

Johnny Footstool
07-06-2010, 01:54 PM
I think the one true difference between Votto and Pujols is the strike outs. I think if Votto ever cuts back on the K's then he will be in Pujols territory. After seeing last year and the first half of this season I have little doubt that Votto has the sustainability to be a great offensive player in baseball for a number of years.

Why would he need to reduce his strikeouts? Pujols strikes out less, but is making more outs than Votto this year.

bucksfan2
07-06-2010, 02:30 PM
Why would he need to reduce his strikeouts? Pujols strikes out less, but is making more outs than Votto this year.

I am basically saying when you compare the two it is really the one thing that separates Pujols from Votto. Sure Votto has Pujols by a .418 to .413 margin but you are basically splitting hairs. Pujols' numbers are a little off from his career norm and I think the strike out rate is the one thing that Pujols does better than Votto at this stage in their careers.

RedsBaron
07-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Yes.

I mean, isn't Joey Votto the NL MVP if we vote today?

-Leader in OPS
-Leader in HR
-Tied 4th in RBI
-Hitting .318, 4th in league

and he even has 7 steals!

And, oh ya, the Reds are in 1st place.

NL MVP...and not on the all star team.
Yes, that has been done before. Kirk Gibson was the 1988 NL MVP and never made an all star team, not in 1988 and not ever in his major league career.

TRF
07-06-2010, 02:54 PM
I am basically saying when you compare the two it is really the one thing that separates Pujols from Votto. Sure Votto has Pujols by a .418 to .413 margin but you are basically splitting hairs. Pujols' numbers are a little off from his career norm and I think the strike out rate is the one thing that Pujols does better than Votto at this stage in their careers.

And yet, the K difference actually means very little as Pujols is making other outs. And more of them.

bucksfan2
07-06-2010, 02:57 PM
And yet, the K difference actually means very little as Pujols is making other outs. And more of them.

This year Pujols has probably made one or two more outs, really not a big deal. In most years this is what separates Votto from Pujols.

I know there are many people who subscribe to the belief that a K is just an out. I am not one of them.

TRF
07-06-2010, 03:15 PM
This year Pujols has probably made one or two more outs, really not a big deal. In most years this is what separates Votto from Pujols.

I know there are many people who subscribe to the belief that a K is just an out. I am not one of them.

I am. a K is just an out. that's it.

With nobody on, A K is just another out.

With a man on 1st, It's just an out. occasionally a GB will advance the runner to 2B.

A K is worse only if there is less than 2 out and the runner(s) are on 2nd or 3rd. That's it. But that topic has been beat to death.

Votto's numbers with runners on are actually better than Pujols this year.

Votto: .356 .466 .705 1.171 50 RBI
Pujols: .341 .482 .611 1.093 49 RBI

With Runners in scoring position, edge to Pujols:


Votto: .311 .442 .622 1.064 34 RBI
Pujols: .356 .533 .630 1.163 39 RBI

Seems like Pujols is just a west of the Mississippi version of Votto to me. :D

RedsManRick
07-06-2010, 03:33 PM
People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

But that's just my perspective.

TRF
07-06-2010, 03:53 PM
People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

But that's just my perspective.


in terms of fame? spot on. Ability? he's a superstar. Temperment? He's a star, and I think he prefers it that way.

westofyou
07-06-2010, 03:57 PM
People throw superstar around so casually these days. Is anybody just a star? Derek Jeter is a superstar. Ken Griffey Jr. was a superstar. Superstars are not just elite performers within their sport but are well established elite performers who have become socially relevant.

Votto is a star has the talent to stay a star for a long time. But he's got a long way to go before we can begin to talk superstar.

I don't think there's been a superstar Red since Pete. Larkin was a star. Davis was a star. Chad Johnson is probably the closest thing the city has to a superstar right now.

But that's just my perspective.

Was Pete a superstar?

I'd say no, he was BIG star, but Bench was the superstar.

RedsBaron
07-06-2010, 04:30 PM
Rose was a superstar.
To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.

RFS62
07-06-2010, 04:38 PM
Rose was a superstar.
To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.


Yeah, I have to agree.

TRF
07-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Pete Rose.

Aqua Velva.

Superstar.

westofyou
07-06-2010, 04:42 PM
Rose was a superstar.
To me, a superstar is a player of future Hall of Fame caliber, which Rose clearly was. In the 1970s the three players who had the highest Win Share totals for the decade were Morgan, Bench and Rose, and the Reds had 'em all.
Right now I would call Albert Pujols a superstar; he is a former MVP and clearly of HOF caliber. Joey Votto at the moment I would call a star--if he performs at his 2010 level for several seasons I would then call him a superstar.


Ok, Pete was a superstar in retrospect, but it did take him longer to get there (Morgan too) JB was a superstar like Albert, pretty much right out of the gate.

RFS62
07-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Ok, Pete was a superstar in retrospect, but it did take him longer to get there (Morgan too) JB was a superstar like Albert, pretty much right out of the gate.


Bench was the "chosen one". Annointed by the likes of Ted Williams right out of the gate.

Other than Junior, I can't remember many other players to come along with such "can't miss" status.

lollipopcurve
07-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Other than Junior, I can't remember many other players to come along with such "can't miss" status.

ED, if a half-step below that kind of ballyhoo.

RedsManRick
07-06-2010, 06:09 PM
Was Pete a superstar?

I'd say no, he was BIG star, but Bench was the superstar.

That could very well be the case. Not having been alive during the BRM era, I'll defer to you on this one. :cool:

TRF
07-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Aqua. Velva.

it doesn't get anymore superstar than that.

RedsManRick
07-06-2010, 06:18 PM
in terms of fame? spot on. Ability? he's a superstar. Temperment? He's a star, and I think he prefers it that way.

To me, you can't break it apart like that. By definition, star is the combination of ability and fame.

You can have one, but not the other, and you're not a star. Ben Zobrist is a wonderful player, but he's not a star.

For me, the sniff test on Star vs. Superstar is "does my mom know who he is?" If the answer is yes, he's a superstar. If the answer is not, he's not.

I think HOF voting tends to show this division. Superstars get in on the first ballot. Tim Raines isn't in the HOF yet because he wasn't a superstar. Alan Trammel wasn't a superstar. Rickey Henderson and Cal Ripken? Those guys were superstars. Ozzie Smith? Superstar. Barry Larkin? Star.

Blitz Dorsey
07-06-2010, 06:40 PM
I love it: "The People's Champion."



"Who cares about OPS?" -- Colin Cowherd.

TRF
07-06-2010, 06:44 PM
Votto is a quiet guy. He's got superstar talent. If he stays healthy, he'll have years of superstar production.

And your mom still won't know who he is. And there isn't a thing wrong with that. Let the fair weather fans vote Pujols in year after year. He certainly has deserved every vote. Votto should have been a player or manager selection. It's wrong that he wasn't, and I bet he really did/does want it. I don't think he really wants the fame of superstardom though.

RedsManRick
07-06-2010, 07:06 PM
Votto is a quiet guy. He's got superstar talent. If he stays healthy, he'll have years of superstar production.

And your mom still won't know who he is. And there isn't a thing wrong with that. Let the fair weather fans vote Pujols in year after year. He certainly has deserved every vote. Votto should have been a player or manager selection. It's wrong that he wasn't, and I bet he really did/does want it. I don't think he really wants the fame of superstardom though.

I agree completely. I couldn't care less about how famous Reds' players are. I just don't think we confuse talent and fame. Votto is an extremely talented player who can anchor a World Series caliber offense. But I don't think he'll ever be a superstar.

Degenerate39
07-06-2010, 07:24 PM
Maybe if he was playing for the Red Sox or Yankees

Matt700wlw
07-06-2010, 07:31 PM
Is Scott Rolen a superstar? I don't want to spin the thread off topic, but I think it fits.

RedsMan3203
07-06-2010, 07:39 PM
Joey Votto probably will be a Red for life....

He doesn't seem like one to run to chase money... If the Reds don't low ball him and keep it simple and give him cash, he'll be playing in Cincinnati for a long long time.

mth123
07-06-2010, 08:42 PM
Aqua. Velva.

it doesn't get anymore superstar than that.

Not fancy perfumes ...

or fancy prices ...

A man wants to smell like a man.

RedEye
07-06-2010, 09:07 PM
I love it: "The People's Champion."


That's a Jay Bruce coinage, I believe. I really want it to stick. If Votto gets voted in to this All-Star game, it might actually have some truth to it!

Big Klu
07-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Aqua. Velva.

it doesn't get anymore superstar than that.

And later on, Grecian Formula 16.

RedsBaron
07-07-2010, 09:08 AM
To me, you can't break it apart like that. By definition, star is the combination of ability and fame.

You can have one, but not the other, and you're not a star. Ben Zobrist is a wonderful player, but he's not a star.

For me, the sniff test on Star vs. Superstar is "does my mom know who he is?" If the answer is yes, he's a superstar. If the answer is not, he's not.

I think HOF voting tends to show this division. Superstars get in on the first ballot. Tim Raines isn't in the HOF yet because he wasn't a superstar. Alan Trammel wasn't a superstar. Rickey Henderson and Cal Ripken? Those guys were superstars. Ozzie Smith? Superstar. Barry Larkin? Star.

I've never agreed with the argument that fame is a requirement to be a superstar, at least not as a player, although celebrity status obviously is huge when it comes to endorement opportunities. Paris Hilton may be a superstar celebrity but she sure isn't a superstar actress or much of anything else.
By the fame criteria, Henry Aaron did not achieve superstar status until shortly before he broke Babe Ruth's career HR record in 1974. In the 1950s and 1960s Aaron produced .300 seasons like clockwork and had a seemingly fascination with his uniform number as he regularly hit around 44 HRs a season, yet most "moms", at least outside of Milwaukee, didn't know who he was. By the fame criteria in the 1960s Roger Maris was baseball's superstar rightfielder---yet Aaron (and Frank Robinson and Roberto Clemente and Al Kaline) was a better rightfielder.
Barry Larkin was a better shortstop than Ozzie Smith, I don't care how many backflips Ozzie did.

TRF
07-07-2010, 09:44 AM
That's a Jay Bruce coinage, I believe. I really want it to stick. If Votto gets voted in to this All-Star game, it might actually have some truth to it!

I'd pay $5 to see him give Charlie Manuel the Peoples Elbow.

RedsManRick
07-07-2010, 11:20 AM
I've never agreed with the argument that fame is a requirement to be a superstar, at least not as a player, although celebrity status obviously is huge when it comes to endorement opportunities. Paris Hilton may be a superstar celebrity but she sure isn't a superstar actress or much of anything else.
By the fame criteria, Henry Aaron did not achieve superstar status until shortly before he broke Babe Ruth's career HR record in 1974. In the 1950s and 1960s Aaron produced .300 seasons like clockwork and had a seemingly fascination with his uniform number as he regularly hit around 44 HRs a season, yet most "moms", at least outside of Milwaukee, didn't know who he was. By the fame criteria in the 1960s Roger Maris was baseball's superstar rightfielder---yet Aaron (and Frank Robinson and Roberto Clemente and Al Kaline) was a better rightfielder.
Barry Larkin was a better shortstop than Ozzie Smith, I don't care how many backflips Ozzie did.

I don't think we disagree. Being a superstar isn't about being the best. Larkin was the better SS. Ozzie was the Superstar.

membengal
07-07-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't know where else to put this, so I will put it here. From Buster Olney's blog on insider on espn.com, this snippet:


Votto is hitting .409 on pitches middle-in, and .419 on pitches middle away; both numbers are 100 points higher than the league average.

"I'd give him the Barry Bonds treatment right now," said the evaluator. "I wouldn't even pitch to him. Right now, he's more dangerous than Pujols."

Really?

"Put it this way: If he and Pujols were in the same lineup, I'd pitch around Votto to get to Pujols. I wouldn't do that the rest of the season, but right now, that's how good Votto is going."

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5360166

Scrap Irony
07-07-2010, 12:16 PM
A superstar is the top players in the game over the course of two or three years. IMO, it has nothing to do with media or media-related posturing.

For example, Willie Mays was a superstar, as was Mickey Mantle.

Roger Maris was not.

Votto is close, as of now. If he continues to play like he has the past year and a half, he's a superstar.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 12:44 PM
A superstar is the top players in the game over the course of two or three years. IMO, it has nothing to do with media or media-related posturing.

For example, Willie Mays was a superstar, as was Mickey Mantle.

Roger Maris was not.

Votto is close, as of now. If he continues to play like he has the past year and a half, he's a superstar.

So Roger Maris who won 2 MVP's in a row and broke Babe's record wasn't a superstar then, but Joey Votto who has 2 nice seasons in a row going will be?

Ok.

TRF
07-07-2010, 01:32 PM
So Roger Maris who won 2 MVP's in a row and broke Babe's record wasn't a superstar then, but Joey Votto who has 2 nice seasons in a row going will be?

Ok.

Different time. Maris wasn't a superstar because he didn't want to be. He hated the limelight that Mantle craved. And he wasn't adored by the press or the fans.

Votto is in the same mold IMO. Superstar talent, blue collar mentality. But in this information age, he doesn't have the luxury of hiding. His name is news everyday the Reds play, and most days they don't.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 02:00 PM
Different time. Maris wasn't a superstar because he didn't want to be. He hated the limelight that Mantle craved. And he wasn't adored by the press or the fans.

Votto is in the same mold IMO. Superstar talent, blue collar mentality. But in this information age, he doesn't have the luxury of hiding. His name is news everyday the Reds play, and most days they don't.

Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

No spin can change that.

RedsBaron
07-07-2010, 02:50 PM
Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.


I agree. Maris hated the attention but he was probably one of the ten most recognized players in the game from 1960 until he retired. I don't know if it would be possible to research this but I would be shocked if Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline or Frank Robinson got as much media coverage as Maris did at that time (Robinson finally began getting coverage after he was traded to the Orioles).
If we use "fame" as the criteria to rank players as superstars, then Don Drysdale was a bigger superstar than Warren Spahn, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, Don Sutton, and Gaylord Perry, all of whom were his contemporaries and all of whom were 300 game winners. Drysdale may have been a bigger superstar by that measurement than was Bob Gibson and certainly was a bigger superstar than Juan Marichal. Drysdale was not a better pitcher than those guys, but he was sure more famous in the 1960s.

bucksfan2
07-07-2010, 02:54 PM
Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

No spin can change that.

I wasn't alive in the 60's but I would imagine the game was a much more balanced game. Geographical advantages weren't the reason for success. Unless you have a special player come along I just don't see a superstar existing outside of NY, LA, or Boston. If some great player would go to the Cubs and get them a WS title then I think you can anoint him a super star as well.

I may be a little over the top but right now the mainstream fan and mainstream media doesn't care, or even know for that matter, that the game exists outside of your large cities. Right now you have Pujols who is a bonified super star, but outside of him how many, non major market players, carry that star status?

pedro
07-07-2010, 02:55 PM
Joey Votto will even never come close to being as famous as Roger Maris, even if he ends up playing for 15 more years and has a great career. In this "information age" the Joey Votto's of this world are drowned out by the noise of those who are self promoters or who break notable records. Joey likely does neither.

RedsBaron
07-07-2010, 02:59 PM
As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
To Tell The Truth (1959)
Lawman (1960)
The Millionaire (1960)
The Rifleman (1962)
The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
Leave It To Beaver (1962)
Alcoa Premiere (1964)
The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
The Hollywood Palace (1966)
Cowboy In Africa (1968)
The Flying Nun (1969)
The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
Then Came Bronson (1969)
The Brady Bunch (1970)
Lucas Tanner (1974)
The Greatest American Hero (1981)

pedro
07-07-2010, 03:03 PM
As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
To Tell The Truth (1959)
Lawman (1960)
The Millionaire (1960)
The Rifleman (1962)
The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
Leave It To Beaver (1962)
Alcoa Premiere (1964)
The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
The Hollywood Palace (1966)
Cowboy In Africa (1968)
The Flying Nun (1969)
The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
Then Came Bronson (1969)
The Brady Bunch (1970)
Lucas Tanner (1974)
The Greatest American Hero (1981)

Wow.

TRF
07-07-2010, 03:23 PM
Sorry, in the early 60's Roger Maris (who played on the most popular and news satutrated team) was a superstar.

No spin can change that.

It isn't spin. Yankee fans hated Maris as much as they liked him. He was resented for challenging the HR mark and NOT being Mantle. Mantle was a superstar. Maris a star. Mantle had the longevity and the press behind him. Maris didn't. He was a very good, not great ballplayer caught up in circumstances. He was the Dale Murphy of his era, or vice versa. (In terms of fame.)

And Votto likely won't ever come close to the name recognition Maris got because of those circumstances. Put it this way, had Maris had that same season, that same year, but in KC, would he have been a superstar? Probably not in any sense of the word.

Fame, superstardom is something embraced by all parties. Bonds, while certainly not loved outside SF was a superstar, because he embraced it, the media embraced it, and fans bought into him as a superstar. I'm removing talent from the equation for just a moment. KGJ was a superstar, but he never seemed to relish the role. As he grew older his stardom diminished along with his abilities (Time is a far more cruel mistress than Fate is fickle) Michael Jordan to this day is still a superstar. John Elway is not.

Roger Maris isn't who I think of when I think Yankee Greats. He's far down the list. There is a reason he's not in the Hall of Fame.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 03:39 PM
As evidence of Drysdale's fame, check out this partial list of his TV appearances:
The Red Skelton Hour (1957)
To Tell The Truth (1959)
Lawman (1960)
The Millionaire (1960)
The Rifleman (1962)
The Donna Reed Show (1962-64--four episodes)
Leave It To Beaver (1962)
Alcoa Premiere (1964)
The New Steve Allen Show (1963)
Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre (1963)
The Joey Bishop Show (1964)
The Hollywood Palace (1966)
Cowboy In Africa (1968)
The Flying Nun (1969)
The Kraft Music Hall (1969)
Then Came Bronson (1969)
The Brady Bunch (1970)
Lucas Tanner (1974)
The Greatest American Hero (1981)
Good looking LA boy playing at home.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 03:42 PM
It isn't spin. Yankee fans hated Maris as much as they liked him. He was resented for challenging the HR mark and NOT being Mantle. Mantle was a superstar. Maris a star. Mantle had the longevity and the press behind him. Maris didn't. He was a very good, not great ballplayer caught up in circumstances. He was the Dale Murphy of his era, or vice versa. (In terms of fame.)

And Votto likely won't ever come close to the name recognition Maris got because of those circumstances. Put it this way, had Maris had that same season, that same year, but in KC, would he have been a superstar? Probably not in any sense of the word.

Fame, superstardom is something embraced by all parties. Bonds, while certainly not loved outside SF was a superstar, because he embraced it, the media embraced it, and fans bought into him as a superstar. I'm removing talent from the equation for just a moment. KGJ was a superstar, but he never seemed to relish the role. As he grew older his stardom diminished along with his abilities (Time is a far more cruel mistress than Fate is fickle) Michael Jordan to this day is still a superstar. John Elway is not.

Roger Maris isn't who I think of when I think Yankee Greats. He's far down the list. There is a reason he's not in the Hall of Fame.

Yet despite all that the man has his own museum

http://www.rogermarismuseum.com/

TRF
07-07-2010, 03:55 PM
Yet despite all that the man has his own museum

http://www.rogermarismuseum.com/

So does Liberace.

http://www.liberace.org/

RedsBaron
07-07-2010, 04:15 PM
Good looking LA boy playing at home.

Probably the first major league baseball game I ever caught a glimpse of was the 1963 World Series, which I can recall seeing a portion of on TV at age 8. I can also recall Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax, along with a few other Dodgers, later singing a version of "High Hopes" on a TV show, wherein the players changed the lyrics from "oops there goes another rubber tree down" to something like "oops there goes another Yankee down," the Dodgers having disposed of the Yankees 5-2, 4-1, 1-0 and 2-1.
That got me to wonder what TV show Drysdale and Koufax had both sang on, so I checked Koufax's list of TV appearances. Drysdale and Koufax both appeared on Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre as themselves on October 25, 1963, so I assume that was the show on which they sang.
I wa surprised to find that Koufax had himself done some limited acting, since Sandy was regarded as being much more reserved than Don. I knew that Koufax and Drysdale had threatened to become actors during their joint holdout in the spring of 1966 but I didn't realize Koufax had actually done any acting, even if limited. Koufax appeared as an actor on the following shows:

Shotgun Slade (1959)
77 Sunset Strip (1960)
Colt .45 (1960)
Bourbon Street Beat (1960)

Koufax also had several TV appearances as himself, including on "Dennis The Menace" and "Mister Ed."
I was amused that IMDB also listed his TV appearances in the 1959, 1963, 1965 and 1966 World Series as being appearances on a "TV mini-series."

Cedric
07-07-2010, 04:21 PM
I wasn't alive in the 60's but I would imagine the game was a much more balanced game. Geographical advantages weren't the reason for success. Unless you have a special player come along I just don't see a superstar existing outside of NY, LA, or Boston. If some great player would go to the Cubs and get them a WS title then I think you can anoint him a super star as well.

I may be a little over the top but right now the mainstream fan and mainstream media doesn't care, or even know for that matter, that the game exists outside of your large cities. Right now you have Pujols who is a bonified super star, but outside of him how many, non major market players, carry that star status?

The game has always been tilted to a select few organizations. Money walked then as much as it does now.

pedro
07-07-2010, 04:33 PM
So does Liberace.

http://www.liberace.org/

Liberace is more famous than Joey Votto will likely ever be.

TheNext44
07-07-2010, 04:40 PM
So does Liberace.

http://www.liberace.org/

The Liberace Mueseum in Las Vegas is one of the most awesome places in the world. Visit it on nearly every Vegas trip. I can only dream that Votto has such a wonderful tribute to him built after he retires. :)

pedro
07-07-2010, 04:50 PM
Probably the first major league baseball game I ever caught a glimpse of was the 1963 World Series, which I can recall seeing a portion of on TV at age 8. I can also recall Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax, along with a few other Dodgers, later singing a version of "High Hopes" on a TV show, wherein the players changed the lyrics from "oops there goes another rubber tree down" to something like "oops there goes another Yankee down," the Dodgers having disposed of the Yankees 5-2, 4-1, 1-0 and 2-1.
That got me to wonder what TV show Drysdale and Koufax had both sang on, so I checked Koufax's list of TV appearances. Drysdale and Koufax both appeared on Bob Hope Presents The Chrysler Theatre as themselves on October 25, 1963, so I assume that was the show on which they sang.
I wa surprised to find that Koufax had himself done some limited acting, since Sandy was regarded as being much more reserved than Don. I knew that Koufax and Drysdale had threatened to become actors during their joint holdout in the spring of 1966 but I didn't realize Koufax had actually done any acting, even if limited. Koufax appeared as an actor on the following shows:

Shotgun Slade (1959)
77 Sunset Strip (1960)
Colt .45 (1960)
Bourbon Street Beat (1960)

Koufax also had several TV appearances as himself, including on "Dennis The Menace" and "Mister Ed."
I was amused that IMDB also listed his TV appearances in the 1959, 1963, 1965 and 1966 World Series as being appearances on a "TV mini-series."

That's really cool RB. Thanks.

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:13 PM
In 20 years, no one will care about Liberace. He'll be reduced to a trivial pursuit question. And who know, the same may happen to Maris. Had the commissioner of baseball not made a joke of the record by adding that stupid asterisk, who knows how he'd be remembered.

My point is fame, and stardom really are different things. Superstardom is rare and Maris just wasn't a superstar. Star? sure. But not a superstar. Case in point, the best player on the Yankees right now is arguably Robinson Cano. He might become a superstar. but is there any question that ARod and Jeter are that team's superstars? I don't think Texiera is a superstar. Its a nebulous fickle label.

Joey Votto might be a superstar talent, but I doubt he's ever a superstar. I also think in a vacuum he's a better player than Maris was too.

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:14 PM
Liberace is more famous than Joey Votto will likely ever be.

not in Canada.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 05:20 PM
not in Canada.

Alas a Staney Cup goalie like Mike Vernon will always be more popular than a baseball player in Canada.

Tell me who is the "most famous" baseball player in Canada?

westofyou
07-07-2010, 05:22 PM
The game has always been tilted to a select few organizations. Money walked then as much as it does now.

Yep, King Kelly was more famous than Pete Browning, the Big Six more so than the Big Train, Lefty Gomez more famous than Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver more famous than Steve Carlton

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:27 PM
Yep, King Kelly was more famous than Pete Browning, the Big Six more so than the Big Train, Lefty Gomez more famous than Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver more famous than Steve Carlton

You kinda made my point about Maris. He was always second to Mantle, and it wasn't close. He'd have preferred the entire spotlight to have shown on Mantle.

And Yankee fans kind of resented that he wasn't the golden boy. That and he wasn't "home grown". He was an ousider. so even though he was a Yankee, he wasn't "their" Yankee. No matter what he did, kids wanted to grow up to be Mickey Mantle.

BTW, I'd never compare a Canadian baseball player to any hockey player in Canada, at any level. that's just crazy talk.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 05:29 PM
You kinda made my point about Maris. He was always second to Mantle, and it wasn't close. He'd have preferred the entire spotlight to have shown on Mantle.

And Yankee fans kind of resented that he wasn't the golden boy.

BTW, I'd never compare a Canadian baseball player to any hockey player in Canada, at any level. that's just crazy talk.

Except in the 60 and 61 mvp votes

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:30 PM
Except in the 60 and 61 mvp votes

So Dale Murphy was a superstar then? And I meant in the eyes of the fans, who by the way, determine whether a player or person is a superstar or not.

westofyou
07-07-2010, 05:35 PM
So Dale Murphy was a superstar then? And I meant in the eyes of the fans, who by the way, determine whether a player or person is a superstar or not.

I can rest assure you that Maris is and always will be a bigger name in baseball lore than Murphy, if you care to belabor the point I'll have to bow out as I have a few deadlines I have to address.

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:46 PM
I give.

Maris was a superstar.

pedro
07-07-2010, 05:50 PM
http://www.2neatmagazines.com/covers/1961cover/1961-Aug-18.jpg

TRF
07-07-2010, 05:52 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:sJc-_PikXZUqWM:http://magculture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/070323_300x348.jpg

Superstar? ain't google fun?

HeatherC1212
07-07-2010, 05:53 PM
Someone had to post it......:laugh:

http://i33.tinypic.com/2llf5g6.jpg

pedro
07-07-2010, 05:56 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:sJc-_PikXZUqWM:http://magculture.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/070323_300x348.jpg

Superstar? ain't google fun?

Brooke Shields was a superstar in the 70's / Early 80's. More people today know who she is than Joey Votto. Not sure what your point is.

Look, Joey Votto is a really good player and if he ever gets signed by the Yankees, hits 3 HR's in a World Series game and has his own candy bar, then he can be a superstar too. Until then... he's a nice player in his first really good season which is still only half over.

pedro
07-07-2010, 06:02 PM
As to the point of this thread, I guess it depends on your definition of "superstar". If one feels that it comes merely from being one of the best in their profession, regardless of fame, then perhaps Joey is on his way. To me, however, "superstar" implies fame that supercedes the everyday fan and I just don't see Votto getting there.

TRF
07-07-2010, 06:02 PM
No she wasn't, that's the point you and woy are missing. Its a fine line between star and superstar. She wasn't, he wasn't, and Votto isn't. I'm actually agreeing with woy and you that Votto isn't.

Take the 80's for example. Madonna and Cyndi Lauper. one was a star, one a superstar. I prefer Lauper myself, but you won't see Madonna on the Celebrity Apprentice.

It's like a Hall of Famer or porn. I know it when i see it.

Here is a serious question, one I'm betting a baseball historian like woy can answer, and I am serious when i say that and ask this. How many superstars of baseball elligible for the Hall of Fame are NOT in it? I imagine it's hard to answer as we didn't live in all the eras it would encompass.

RedsBaron
07-07-2010, 07:18 PM
One of the many problems I have with the "Paris Hilton" celebrity distinction of determining whether or not a player is a "superstar" based upon his fame is that fame diminishes over time. WOY noted that The Big Six was more famous than The Big Train, which was true during the 1910s when each was in his prime, but decades after they stopped pitching it was Walter Johnson who made the All Century Team in 1999 with 479,279 votes, while Christy Mathewson was an also-ran, with a mere 249,747 total. Now I believe that Johnson was in fact the greater pitcher, but if fans could have voted for an all time team in, say, 1920, Matty almost certainly would have received more votes than Johnson.
In his heyday Bob Feller was about the biggest star in the game, a Stephen Strasburg who was winning 25 games a year and strking out everyone with 3 no-hitters. Only Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams and Stan Musial were as big a star as Feller in the 1940s. Feller didn't make the All Century Team. Much of his fame has been lost and he is often remembered now as just an old man telling people to get off his lawn.
And Stan Musial? Fans didn't vote him to the All Century Team, and a stink was made when he was later placed on the team instead of Roberto Clemente, who had more votes, even though Musial was clearly the greater player. Musial was colorless however, and if fame is the requirement to be a superstar Stan the Man does not qualify.
Honus Wagner was the biggest star in the game during the first decade of the 20th Century, but fans didn't vote him to the team either, preferring Ozzie Smith (Wagner was later added).
Cy Young was voted by fans to the All Century Team, probably because of the award named after him. Young got nearly 400,000 more votes than Walter Johnson, almost certainly because of the Cy Young Award, yet Young was neither as good as Johnson in their respective primes nor probably even as famous.
Is Brooks Robinson a superstar because his glove work made him famous and yet Eddie Mathews is not a superstar? Brooks made the All Century Team with about four times as many votes as Mathews, yet Mathews was the greater third baseman.
Tom Seaver didn't make the All Century Team and Nolan Ryan was voted to the team, but Seaver was clearly the greater pitcher, and for most of his career Seaver was more famous, but his memory has faded after retirement whereas Ryan kept striking out guys well into his 40s. Ryan got 992,040 votes while Seaver got 330,219 (and Lefty Grove missed out with the fans, only getting 142,169 votes).
Frank Robinson got less than half as many votes as Clemente, though neither man made the All Century Team, and Clemente probably remains more famous. Robinson was a better ballplayer.

George Anderson
07-07-2010, 07:29 PM
One of the many problems I have with the "Paris Hilton" celebrity distinction of determining whether or not a player is a "superstar" based upon his fame is that fame diminishes over time. WOY noted that The Big Six was more famous than The Big Train, which was true during the 1910s when each was in his prime, but decades after they stopped pitching it was Walter Johnson who made the All Century Team in 1999 with 479,279 votes, while Christy Mathewson was an also-ran, with a mere 249,747 total. Now I believe that Johnson was in fact the greater pitcher, but if fans could have voted for an all time team in, say, 1920, Matty almost certainly would have received more votes than Johnson.
In his heyday Bob Feller was about the biggest star in the game, a Stephen Strasburg who was winning 25 games a year and strking out everyone with 3 no-hitters. Only Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams and Stan Musial were as big a star as Feller in the 1940s. Feller didn't make the All Century Team. Much of his fame has been lost and he is often remembered now as just an old man telling people to get off his lawn.
And Stan Musial? Fans didn't vote him to the All Century Team, and a stink was made when he was later placed on the team instead of Roberto Clemente, who had more votes, even though Musial was clearly the greater player. Musial was colorless however, and if fame is the requirement to be a superstar Stan the Man does not qualify.
Honus Wagner was the biggest star in the game during the first decade of the 20th Century, but fans didn't vote him to the team either, preferring Ozzie Smith (Wagner was later added).
Cy Young was voted by fans to the All Century Team, probably because of the award named after him. Young got nearly 400,000 more votes than Walter Johnson, almost certainly because of the Cy Young Award, yet Young was neither as good as Johnson in their respective primes nor probably even as famous.
Is Brooks Robinson a superstar because his glove work made him famous and yet Eddie Mathews is not a superstar? Brooks made the All Century Team with about four times as many votes as Mathews, yet Mathews was the greater third baseman.
Tom Seaver didn't make the All Century Team and Nolan Ryan was voted to the team, but Seaver was clearly the greater pitcher, and for most of his career Seaver was more famous, but his memory has faded after retirement whereas Ryan kept striking out guys well into his 40s. Ryan got 992,040 votes while Seaver got 330,219 (and Lefty Grove missed out with the fans, only getting 142,169 votes).
Frank Robinson got less than half as many votes as Clemente, though neither man made the All Century Team, and Clemente probably remains more famous. Robinson was a better ballplayer.

The All Century Team did nothing but reaffirm my belief that baseball fans in general are clueless about the great history of the game.

dougdirt
07-07-2010, 07:41 PM
Joey Votto isn't a superstar. My proof? He was just named the breakout 1B of the year on MLB Network. For a guy who finished 4th in the NL last year in OPS, you imagine that guy can't be a 'breakout' player.... but alas, he was.

reds1869
07-07-2010, 07:52 PM
Great player and superstar aren't the same thing. Joey is a great player but not a superstar--not anywhere close. His reputation and star-power are not even approaching his baseball abilities. That isn't to diminish his value and skills as he is my favorite player. He just has a long way to go before he achieves superstar status.

George Anderson
07-07-2010, 08:09 PM
I think this discussion about is Votto a superstar more about the people of Cincinnati are desperate to have a superstar type athlete. Face it, it has been a long time since any athlete that played in the Queen City whether for the Reds or Bengals could be considered a superstar. I don't consider Griffeys time in Cincy a superstar period nor was Dunn's or anyone elses for that matter. You would probally have to go back to the mid 90's when you could consider Larkin the last Reds superstar. I always felt that Carson Palmer was and still is very overrated by the people of Cincy again because it seems IMO the people of Cincy are desperate to finally have an athlete they can consider as a superstar. I kinda see the same thing with people wanting to annoint Votto a superstar before he actually is because they are so desperate to have one.

RedEye
07-07-2010, 09:57 PM
I think this discussion about is Votto a superstar more about the people of Cincinnati are desperate to have a superstar type athlete. Face it, it has been a long time since any athlete that played in the Queen City whether for the Reds or Bengals could be considered a superstar. I don't consider Griffeys time in Cincy a superstar period nor was Dunn's or anyone elses for that matter. You would probally have to go back to the mid 90's when you could consider Larkin the last Reds superstar. I always felt that Carson Palmer was and still is very overrated by the people of Cincy again because it seems IMO the people of Cincy are desperate to finally have an athlete they can consider as a superstar. I kinda see the same thing with people wanting to annoint Votto a superstar before he actually is because they are so desperate to have one.

Wow. This thread has taken some pretty interesting directions. I like it!

FWIW, I concur with those who consider Chad Ochocinco the one current Cincinnati superstar. Carson could join him there eventually, and especially if they go deep into the playoffs, but he isn't there yet by a long shot.

Actually, one might make the argument that The Ocho is more of a superstar than he is a star. He almost makes superstardom his profession--kind of like the NFL's Madonna, really.

Blitz Dorsey
07-07-2010, 10:05 PM
C'mon. This is like asking "Is Jesus Christ a superstar?" (Cue the music ... Jesus Christ, superstar!)

"Are you tryin' to tell me that Jesus Christ couldn't hit a curve ball?"

RedEye
07-07-2010, 10:07 PM
C'mon. This is like asking "Is Jesus Christ a superstar?" (Cue the music ... Jesus Christ, superstar!)

"Are you tryin' to tell me that Jesus Christ couldn't hit a curve ball?"

Aha! Someone finally catches my initial reference! :beerme:

Ghosts of 1990
07-07-2010, 10:19 PM
Votto is a Superstar. Jay Bruce is not. Votto is going to be in the MVP running. He just might get wild and win the thing.

dougdirt
07-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Votto is a Superstar. Jay Bruce is not. Votto is going to be in the MVP running. He just might get wild and win the thing.

Superstars don't put up the best stats in the league and still not make the All Star team.

RedEye
07-07-2010, 10:36 PM
Votto is a Superstar. Jay Bruce is not. Votto is going to be in the MVP running. He just might get wild and win the thing.

Is this point-blank serious or dripping with sarcasm? Is there even a difference anymore?

Big Klu
07-07-2010, 10:58 PM
C'mon. This is like asking "Is Jesus Christ a superstar?" (Cue the music ... Jesus Christ, superstar!)

"Are you tryin' to tell me that Jesus Christ couldn't hit a curve ball?"

Ah, Jesus. I like him very much. But he no help with curve ball.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NwMmft2Mlzg/SjkA4a8msOI/AAAAAAAABAc/ee--QMbisY0/s320/PedroCerrano%5B1%5D.JPG

TRF
07-07-2010, 11:44 PM
Superstars don't put up the best stats in the league and still not make the All Star team.

ding ding!

exactly. Superstar often has nothing to do with your current production. it's an atmosphere about a person. Votto doesn't have that.

And that's ok, it really is.

RedEye
07-29-2010, 10:06 PM
ding ding!

exactly. Superstar often has nothing to do with your current production. it's an atmosphere about a person. Votto doesn't have that.

And that's ok, it really is.

With the triple crown and MVP talk now heating up, is it time to revive this conversation as well? IIRC, quite a few recent MVP winners either already were or thereby became bonafide superstars...

Ghosts of 1990
07-29-2010, 10:08 PM
I think by year's end, he's a superstar.

TRF
07-29-2010, 10:25 PM
he certainly owes a lot of his star status to the "snub".

I doubt he's ever considered a superstar. Rolen isn't either.

I bet he's fine with that.

corkedbat
07-29-2010, 10:47 PM
Superstar or not, I'd love to see him inked to a LTC during the off-season.

BCubb2003
07-29-2010, 10:55 PM
I bet in Canada, he's bigger than Justin Bieber.

PuffyPig
07-29-2010, 11:22 PM
A superstar is the top players in the game over the course of two or three years. IMO, it has nothing to do with media or media-related posturing.

For example, Willie Mays was a superstar, as was Mickey Mantle.

Roger Maris was not.

Votto is close, as of now. If he continues to play like he has the past year and a half, he's a superstar.



Two or three years?

Maris was MVP in the AL in consecutive years.

He was the top player in the majors over two seasons.

TRF
07-29-2010, 11:42 PM
Two or three years?

Maris was MVP in the AL in consecutive years.

He was the top player in the majors over two seasons.

So was Dale Murphy.

It has nothing to do with production.

Edit: scratch that, it isn't JUST production.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 09:44 PM
Sports Illustrated covers tend to lend themselves to superstardom, as do triple crowns. Seriously... Joey's season--and particularly this last week on the West coast trip--have been downright amazing and reputation-making. It's almost as if he is single-handedly willing the Reds to victory some days. Last Sunday and today are cases in point. Awesome to see.

WMR
08-25-2010, 09:50 PM
Forget Dusty's extension, this is the guy Walt needs to be working on getting signed to a LTC ASAP.


Buy out those arb years and try to get as many FA years thrown in as you can...

RedEye
08-25-2010, 10:39 PM
Forget Dusty's extension, this is the guy Walt needs to be working on getting signed to a LTC ASAP.

Buy out those arb years and try to get as many FA years thrown in as you can...

Absolutely. He's a real franchise player on offense and defense. Those don't come around too often. They're the ones you want eating up large portions of your payroll--not closers or innings eaters.

klw
08-26-2010, 10:20 PM
Somebody said extension...

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/08/joey-votto-extension-candidate.html

Walt Jocketty knows a thing or two about extending young, MVP-caliber first basemen. The Reds GM signed Albert Pujols to his current seven-year $100MM deal in 2004, back when he was running the Cardinals. This winter, Jocketty will have to consider offering an extension to another productive young first baseman, one who has led the Reds to the top of the NL Central standings.

Homer Bailey
08-26-2010, 11:04 PM
I'll just post this here...

Guess how many infield fly balls Joey has hit this year? Guess, don't look it up.

Joseph
08-26-2010, 11:06 PM
I'll just post this here...

Guess how many infield fly balls Joey has hit this year? Guess, don't look it up.

This seems like one of those questions that suggests a low answer.

I'm going to guess he has zero.

dougdirt
08-26-2010, 11:08 PM
I bet in Canada, he's bigger than Justin Bieber.

I am sure there are 12 year old girls bigger than Justin Bieber.

Oh, you meant in popularity? My bad.

dougdirt
08-26-2010, 11:10 PM
I'll just post this here...

Guess how many infield fly balls Joey has hit this year? Guess, don't look it up.

I know that for a long time it as 0, so my guess is 2.

Homer Bailey
08-26-2010, 11:10 PM
This seems like one of those questions that suggests a low answer.

I'm going to guess he has zero.

You would be correct.

Razor Shines
08-27-2010, 01:46 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74836&highlight=joey+votto
This is an interesting thread. TRF's "a tick below Pujols" is a nice call.

Homer Bailey
08-27-2010, 01:59 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74836&highlight=joey+votto
This is an interesting thread. TRF's "a tick below Pujols" is a nice call.

I specifically remember rolling my eyes at that post.

I now specifically remember rolling my eyes at the fact that I rolled my eyes at that post.

Roy Tucker
08-27-2010, 08:29 AM
The term that comes to my mind about Votto is that he's a budding superstar. Emerging as we speak.

This is his break-out season, at least on the national scene.

Heath
08-27-2010, 08:38 AM
The term that comes to my mind about Votto is that he's a budding superstar. Emerging as we speak.

This is his break-out season, at least on the national scene.

In Cincinnati of all places. Our little big town.

Reds Freak
08-27-2010, 10:04 AM
You would be correct.

Zero? Do you mean in the actual infield or are you including foul outs or flyouts in the short outfield caught by infielders? If you're telling me he hasn't flied out to any infielder all year, that's just stupid...

Homer Bailey
08-27-2010, 10:23 AM
Zero? Do you mean in the actual infield or are you including foul outs or flyouts in the short outfield caught by infielders? If you're telling me he hasn't flied out to any infielder all year, that's just stupid...

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/26/1652349/alex-rodriguez-joey-votto-yankees-rays-angels-five-numbers


Votto's list of accomplishments to date is as long as it is impressive. And me, I'm here to add one more thing that I suppose you can slide in somewhere near the bottom. Because while this isn't the most meaningful of statistics, I think it's worth noting that, of the 153 batters who had made at least 400 trips to the plate so far this season, Joey Votto is the only one who has yet to hit a single infield fly.

Roy Tucker
08-27-2010, 10:38 AM
I know I saw Votto hit a foul pop-up caught by the 3B during the Royals series.

Pretty remarkable stat though.

Reds Freak
08-27-2010, 11:36 AM
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/26/1652349/alex-rodriguez-joey-votto-yankees-rays-angels-five-numbers

Wow! Interesting, nevertheless. Just a silly, silly stat to think that a guy with 31 HRs hasn't got under one from time to time and popped to the infield...

Captain Hook
08-31-2010, 11:54 PM
Some sort of cross sport power ranking that ESPN does has Votto ranked #1.I think they are suggesting that Joey is currently the best, not just at what he does but best athlete in all of sports.Maybe they're just ranking the most popular at this time.Check out #20.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?page=cspr/