Wednesday, July 7th, 2010, Minor League Updates

[texasdave]

The Reds summer league team in Venezuela takes a 6-5 decision.
Ronald Torreyes, just 17, with another multi-hit game. His 3 hits, including a triple, up his average to .395. His OPS must be pushing 1.100 after today's contest. Humberto Valor and Ponceano Flores chipped in with two base knocks apiece.
On the mound, Oswaldo Mieres pitched six strong innings. He gave up just two hits (including a solo homer) while allowing just one run. He walked two batters and sent five others grabbing some bench.

[texasdave]

Daryl Thompson going for Carolina tonight. I am really pulling for this kid to persevere and make it. Long odds though.

[GOYA]

Tribe @ Bats

Hanigan C .209
Cozart SS .254
Alonso 1B .257
Frazier LF .229
Francisco 3B .283
Dorn RF .315
Valaika 2B .296
Griffin CF .313
Klinker P .000

Perfect 1st for Klinker with 1 K

[GOYA]

Hanigan grounds out 6-3
Cozart flies out to the wall in left
Yonder walks and steals 2nd
Frazier singles to CF
Yonder is tagged out at the plate (easily)

0-0 After 1

[GOYA]

Great throw by Frazier to take away a double off the wall in left.

[dougdirt]

Alonso has 9 steals this year and just 2 caught stealing. If I told you Alonso would try to steal 11 bases this year, who would have guessed he would have swiped 9?

[GOYA]

3 Ks for Klinker through 2 IP. 1 hit and he's faced the minimum.

0-0 going to the bottom of the 2nd

[Homer Bailey]

Alonso has 9 steals this year and just 2 caught stealing. If I told you Alonso would try to steal 11 bases this year, who would have guessed he would have swiped 9?

I would have.

If you would have asked me today...

[GOYA]

Cisco flies out to left
Dorn walks
Valaika up

gotta go :)

[Scrap Irony]

Alonso isn't all that thick. He's stocky, but obviously athletically built. He has the big arms of a weight lifter, but he moves alright.

(This is not to say he'll ever break land speed records. He's still an average at best runner, though I'd argue he's above average as a 1B.)

[AWA85]

Alonso has 9 steals this year and just 2 caught stealing. If I told you Alonso would try to steal 11 bases this year, who would have guessed he would have swiped 9?

Can we sell his blazing speed to other teams in a trade?!?! :D

[texasdave]

Lance Janke two hitless innings. Lynchburg tied 0-0 early on.

[dougdirt]

Alonso isn't all that thick. He's stocky, but obviously athletically built. He has the big arms of a weight lifter, but he moves alright.

(This is not to say he'll ever break land speed records. He's still an average at best runner, though I'd argue he's above average as a 1B.)
Last year in the AFL, of everyone the guys at PP times from home to first, he was among the absolute slowest guys in the league, at a 4.6, which as a left hander made him a 20 runner, the lowest on the scouting scale you can get.

[batsfan]

ANOTHER sb for Alonso!

[dougdirt]

Double steal by Cozart/Alonso. Bats up 1-0.

[Kingspoint]

Alonso has 9 steals this year and just 2 caught stealing. If I told you Alonso would try to steal 11 bases this year, who would have guessed he would have swiped 9?

I said that yesterday (or the day before) that I didn't know he had it in him. I never would have guessed it.

[PuffyPig]

Alonso has 9 steals this year and just 2 caught stealing. If I told you Alonso would try to steal 11 bases this year, who would have guessed he would have swiped 9?

Regardless of his attempts, I think I would have guessed zero steals.

[dougdirt]

Matt Klinker has 6 strikeouts through 4.

[dougdirt]

Zack Cozart just hit a HR off the foul pole and the Bats lead 6-0 in the 4th.

[Kingspoint]

Regardless of his attempts, I think I would have guessed zero steals.

Same here.

[Kingspoint]

Zack Cozart just hit a HR off the foul pole and the Bats lead 6-0 in the 4th.

....after Hanigan's 2-RBI Single.

[AWA85]

Cozart is becoming more and more interesting. Really pleased with his power that has been shown at Louisville.

[dougdirt]

Lance Janke has allowed 1 hit through 5 for Lynchburg.

[Kingspoint]

Daryl Thompson struggling badly tonight.

[Kingspoint]

He's been replaced with 2 outs in the 2nd.

Looks like Thompson has another injury...don't know what kind.

[Kingspoint]

I don't have the visual for Carolina. Sounds like he dove for a ball and landed awkwardly.

[Kingspoint]

Any news about Thompson?

[Kingspoint]

Alonso hitting .419 in July w/ an OPS of 1.293.

Small sample, I know.

[AWA85]

Yorman out yet again....

[Kingspoint]

Danny Dorn 3 for 3 tonight....hitting .500 in July so far (8 for 16).

Valaika has hit into consecutive GODP's after Dorn Singles.

[dougdirt]

Donnie Joseph gave up his 1st career HR tonight.

[Kingspoint]

Chapman going WILD in Indy.

[Kingspoint]

HBP, Passed Ball, Wild Pitch, 2 K's, a Walk, a Single, all in one inning and he's given up 1 run.

[GIDP]

Id like to see Dorn on the ML bench

[Kingspoint]

Donnie Joseph gave up his 1st career HR tonight.

That's amazing. I didn't know he hadn't given one up.

[Kingspoint]

They're finally taking Chapman out w/ the bases loaded and a 5-run lead.

He threw 34 pitches and could only get 2 outs. He's really wild. His pitches are all over the place.

[mdccclxix]

They're finally taking Chapman out w/ the bases loaded and a 5-run lead.

He threw 34 pitches and could only get 2 outs. He's really wild. His pitches are all over the place.

Between him and Boxberger, I am not liking this bullpen transition.

[malcontent]

Between him and Boxberger, I am not liking this bullpen transition.
Agreed. Can they just quit it already? He's going to be an MLB starter, let him learn to become one. Instead of just a huge question mark as a reliever.

[Kingspoint]

He is going to be a starter.

Johan Santana was used as a Reliever when he started. Many Hall-of-Famers were Relievers their first year in the Majors.

There's nothing wrong with him spending August and September and October as a Reliever in the Majors.

It guarantees that he won't be overused, and it gives the REDS more time to work with him during live games. He'd be shut down in 6 weeks if he remained a starter.

[redsfan10]

Player IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Thompson, D 1.2 5 3 2 0 1 1 3.32
Tabor 3.1 1 0 0 2 3 0 2.76
Boxberger 1.0 2 1 1 1 1 0 15.19

[HokieRed]

He is going to be a starter.

Johan Santana was used as a Reliever when he started. Many Hall-of-Famers were Relievers their first year in the Majors.

There's nothing wrong with him spending August and September and October as a Reliever in the Majors.

It guarantees that he won't be overused, and it gives the REDS more time to work with him during live games. He'd be shut down in 6 weeks if he remained a starter.


Seems unlikely to me he's going to be any help this year.

[RedsFanInBama]

Ridiculous the way they are screwing with Chapman. Look at the guy, he's clearly not ready to pitch in the major leagues in any role. Move him back to starter, leave him alone and hopefully he'll be ready to start 2011 in the rotation.

[RedsFanInBama]

There's nothing wrong with him spending August and September and October as a Reliever in the Majors.
There's plenty wrong with it if he's not consistently able to get Major League hitters out. We're in a pennant race.

[Vottomatic]

He's been replaced with 2 outs in the 2nd.

Looks like Thompson has another injury...don't know what kind.

What's new?

I remember a thread earlier in the year where I got jumped for saying Thompson will never be a factor with the Reds because he's injury prone.

Voila!

Another injury. Next time he's healthy they should just package him in a trade as a throw-in. He's never going to make it to the Bigs with us. His time came and went.

[PuffyPig]

.

Johan Santana was used as a Reliever when he started. Many Hall-of-Famers were Relievers their first year in the Majors.



I don't think that is correct.

Can you name the "many".

[Vottomatic]

Id like to see Dorn on the ML bench

Me too.

I can see him replacing Nix as our LHed occasional OFer and PHer off the bench next season. He's having a really solid season at triple A. :thumbup:

[Kingspoint]

There's plenty wrong with it if he's not consistently able to get Major League hitters out. We're in a pennant race.


If that happens, he won't be pitching.

[RedsFanInBama]

If that happens, he won't be pitching.

He seems an awfully long way from being able to realistically help at the big league level.

[Joseph]

I've seen Chapman in person multiple times this season.

He has no business in the Reds pen or rotation this year. He needs to get his head in the game and work on his control. He's not young Billy Wagner wild, he's all over the place wild.

[TRF]

All Danny Dorn does is hit.

[bubbachunk]

All Danny Dorn does is hit.

It would be nice to see him up to pinch hit, start some in left and spell Votto. I am sold he deserves at least a chance to see if he will stick.

[TheNext44]

I don't think that is correct.

Can you name the "many".

I have no idea what constitutes "many" but here are some of the more recent ones:

Ryan
Carlton
Palmer
Perry
Jenkins
Niekro
Drysdale
Koufax
Bunning

Ironically, Eck did not.

[mace]

A big night in relief for Blair Carson of Dayton. He went four shutout innings, giving up one hit to gain the win in relief of Jacob Johnson. Kevin Arico got the save. Mark Fleury tied it with a 3-run HR in the seventh. Henry Rodriguez doubled in Andrew Means to bring home the winner in the eighth.

[mace]

Abel De Los Santos ran his record to 4-1 as the DSL Reds won, 4-3. His line was rather unusual: 5 IP, 2 H, 3 R, 2 ER, 5 BB, 3 K. He's a tad wild, obviously, but he's 18 and his ERA is 1.02.

[PuffyPig]

I have no idea what constitutes "many" but here are some of the more recent ones:

Ryan
Carlton
Palmer
Perry
Jenkins
Niekro
Drysdale
Koufax
Bunning

Ironically, Eck did not.

Pretty much everyone of these pitchers broke into the league as combination starters/relievers, probably due to nor being good enough to crack the 4 man rotation.

Only Niekro was essentially a reliever, and that was not becuase they were breaking him in, they felt that was going to be his role.

It's a more recent development of breaking in starters as relievers, but in the old days the bullpen was geenrally reserved for pitchers who ranked below a teams best 4.

[HokieRed]

Ridiculous the way they are screwing with Chapman. Look at the guy, he's clearly not ready to pitch in the major leagues in any role. Move him back to starter, leave him alone and hopefully he'll be ready to start 2011 in the rotation.


Agree, though I'm not confident he's going to be ready at the opening of 2011either. That's not a knock on him; I just think it's important not to rush him and end up setting him back.

[GIDP]

What's new?

I remember a thread earlier in the year where I got jumped for saying Thompson will never be a factor with the Reds because he's injury prone.

Voila!

Another injury. Next time he's healthy they should just package him in a trade as a throw-in. He's never going to make it to the Bigs with us. His time came and went.

Getting injured doesnt prove your point though. He might never be a factor but until he retires or they get rid of him its pretty flawed thinking. He's 24 only still. There is plenty of time for him to be a healthy pitcher, or be a reliever.

[Kingspoint]

I don't think that is correct.

Can you name the "many".

All listings are their first year in the Majors:

Christy Mathewson Age 19, 6 games, only 1 start.
Ed Walsh Age 23, 18 games, only 8 starts.
Lefty Grove Age 25, 45 games, 18 starts.
Herb Pennock Age 18, 17 games, only 2 starts.
Dazzy Vance Age 24, 9 games, 4 starts.
Ted Lyons Age 22, 9 games, only 1 start.
Bob Feller Age 17, 14 games, 8 starts.
Red Faber Age 25, 40 games, 19 starts.
Red Ruffing Age 19, 8 games, only 2 starts.
Stan Coveleski Age 22, 5 games, 2 starts.
Satchel Paige Age 41, 21 games, 7 starts.
Sandy Koufax Age 19, 12 games, 5 starts.
Lefty Gomez Age 21, 15 games, 6 starts.
Warren Spahn Age 21, 4 games, 2 starts.
Bob Lemon Age 25, 32 games, 5 starts.
Don Drysdale Age 19, 25 games, 12 starts.
Jim Palmer Age 19, 27 games, 6 starts.
Gaylord Perry Age 24, 31 games, 4 starts.
Ferguson Jenkins Age 22, 7 games, 0 starts.
Steve Carlton Age 20, 15 games, only 2 starts.
Jim Bunning Age 23/24, 30 games, 11 starts.
Phil Niekro Age 25-27, 79 games, only 1 start.
Nolan Ryan Age 19, 2 games, 1 start.

Johan Santana Age 21, 30 games, 5 starts. His next year at Age 22, 15 games and only 4 starts. In his 3rd season he only had 14 starts out of 27 games. In his 4th year only 18 starts out of 45 games.

[Kingspoint]

Johan Santana is a very comparable player to Chapman. Wild beyond belief with an amazing fastball.

It took Minnesota 4 years to "tame" Santana in the Majors, moving him in and out of the Rotation.

That's not saying this is what the REDS have in mind, but a player can be developed just as well from the bullpen as he can from Starting if you think he's ready to face Major League Batters because of one or two pitches that he has already developed.

The bottom line is that this is a player who can help the REDS win this year if he's used in a relief role. He's never going to help them this year in a starter's role. Using him in relief this year isn't going to change his development in a starting role for next season. If anything, they get to work with him for an extra month or two while watching him in live situations, also against Major League batters (whom he's certainly not facing as a starter this season).

[mdccclxix]

Johan Santana is a very comparable player to Chapman. Wild beyond belief with an amazing fastball.

It took Minnesota 4 years to "tame" Santana in the Majors, moving him in and out of the Rotation.

That's not saying this is what the REDS have in mind, but a player can be developed just as well from the bullpen as he can from Starting if you think he's ready to face Major League Batters because of one or two pitches that he has already developed.

The bottom line is that this is a player who can help the REDS win this year if he's used in a relief role. He's never going to help them this year in a starter's role. Using him in relief this year isn't going to change his development in a starting role for next season. If anything, they get to work with him for an extra month or two while watching him in live situations, also against Major League batters (whom he's certainly not facing as a starter this season).

I have little doubt Chapman will be up in September, but I'm not sure how much of a factor he'll be out of the pen unless he gains some control.

[TheNext44]

Pretty much everyone of these pitchers broke into the league as combination starters/relievers, probably due to nor being good enough to crack the 4 man rotation.

Only Niekro was essentially a reliever, and that was not becuase they were breaking him in, they felt that was going to be his role.

It's a more recent development of breaking in starters as relievers, but in the old days the bullpen was geenrally reserved for pitchers who ranked below a teams best 4.

To be honest, the list is pretty meaningless. Wasn't even trying to counter you, just providing a list.

You are right, being a reliever pre 1980's which is when all those guys started, meant something completely different than it does now. Nearly every pitcher started as a reliever unless he was a young stud.

I wonder how many TOR starters today broke in as a reliever? I really don't know. It would be interesting research.

[Kingspoint]

....and my point, is that if Johan Santana can spend his first 4 years in the Majors nudging into a Starters role because he has major control problems just like Chapman, then it's good enough for Chapman. If somebody wants to counter that spending any time as a Reliever is going to hinder Chapman's chances of being a successful Starter, well... it's not. I think Walt knows what he's doing.

[Kingspoint]

I have little doubt Chapman will be up in September, but I'm not sure how much of a factor he'll be out of the pen unless he gains some control.

I don't think any of us do, including Chapman.

This is one of the reasons I like him as a Reliever right now.

You work with him. Get him out there. Watch the results. Then work with him again. You don't have to wait 5 days for him to work out live what he and the Coaches are working on with him. 2 or 3 days and he's back out there. It's a better "schooling" situation.

[OnBaseMachine]

Juan Duran went 1-for-3 with a double and a walk tonight. In his last four games he's 5-for-14 with a double, a HR, and four walks.

[OnBaseMachine]

The AZL Reds lost 6-3. Junior Arias went 2-for-5 with a double.

[RedsFanInBama]

I just think it's important not to rush him and end up setting him back.

I agree but it's too late. FO is obviously hell bent on getting some return on their investment THIS SEASON. Bringing him up to let him throw heat one inning every three days instead of leaving him in the minors to learn how to pitch using all of his stuff is nothing but counter productive IMO. We may not actually know for a couple more years how the move worked out, but I'm not liking the looks of it.

And Santana wasn't nearly as wild the year before his initial ML season as Chapman currently is. Santana was at 3.1 BB/9. Chapman is at 5.5 right now. He also had fewer wild pitches in 160 innings than Chapman has in 74.

[Kingspoint]

I agree but it's too late. FO is obviously hell bent on getting some return on their investment THIS SEASON. Bringing him up to let him throw heat one inning every three days instead of leaving him in the minors to learn how to pitch using all of his stuff is nothing but counter productive IMO. We may not actually know for a couple more years how the move worked out, but I'm not liking the looks of it.

And Santana wasn't nearly as wild the year before his initial ML season as Chapman currently is. Santana was at 3.1 BB/9. Chapman is at 5.5 right now. He also had fewer wild pitches in 160 innings than Chapman has in 74.

Santana led the American League in Wild Pitches (15) during his 3rd season in the Majors while only pitching 108 innings. He still only started half of the games he was in that season, as they still were trying to get him to control his pitches.

His last two years in the minors ('98-'99) before staying in the Majors permanently for 3 years he had 20 Wild Pitches and 20 Hit Batsmen in only 253 IP.

[dougdirt]

The biggest difference between Santana and Chapman is simple.... Santana had to be rushed to the majors because he was taken in the Rule 5 draft. In order to control him, you had to deal with his growing pains at the major league level. That does not have to happen with Chapman.

[RedsFanInBama]

Not that it really matters, but regarding the wild pitches, Santana had 18 over the 98-99 seasons. And that averages out to one wild pitch every 14 innings. Chapman is at one every six innings.

[GOYA]

Bats win 6-1


Player AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG
Hanigan C 3 2 2 1 0 0 2 0 0 .239
Denove PH-C 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .239
Cozart SS 5 1 2 0 0 1 3 0 1 .256
Alonso 1B 2 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 .263
Frazier LF 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 .233
Francisco 3B 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 .277
Dorn RF 3 1 3 1 0 0 0 1 0 .331
Valaika 2B 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .297
Griffin CF 4 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 .321
Klinker P 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .000
Herrera P 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000

Player IP H R ER BB SO HR ERA
Klinker (W, 3-1) 6.0 1 0 0 2 7 0 3.91
Burton 1.0 0 0 0 0 2 0 3.32
Chapman 0.2 1 1 1 2 2 0 4.38
Herrera (S, 1) 1.1 0 0 0 0 1 0 4.76

[RedsFanInBama]

Nice to see Hanigan with a couple hits. I'd love to see Burton back to the form he had a couple seasons back.

[dougdirt]

Nice to see Hanigan with a couple hits. I'd love to see Burton back to the form he had a couple seasons back.

He looked pretty good tonight. Nice slider.

[fearofpopvol1]

I am hoping Hanigan gets back to Cincy soon...but I wonder if they'll wait until after the break?

Alonso sure is raising his trading stock at a good time. I'd like to see Dorn promoted to Cincy and Nix DFA'ed.

[Kingspoint]

Not that it really matters, but regarding the wild pitches, Santana had 18 over the 98-99 seasons. And that averages out to one wild pitch every 14 innings. Chapman is at one every six innings.

We have the Tazmanian Devil in Chapman.

[Kingspoint]

The biggest difference between Santana and Chapman is simple.... Santana had to be rushed to the majors because he was taken in the Rule 5 draft. In order to control him, you had to deal with his growing pains at the major league level. That does not have to happen with Chapman.

Then that was probably why they handled it the way they did.

[muddie]

The Diamond Jaxx (6-10) struck for a two-run first inning against Carolina starter Daryl Thompson (L, 0-4). Guillermo Quiroz hit a two-run homer against Thompson. Thompson, making his second start off of the disabled list, left the game in the second inning due to an illness. The game started with a heat index of 98 degrees. Lee Tabor pitched the next 3 1/3 innings in long relief to preserve the Carolina (8-8) bullpen

[TRF]

We might see Chapman in the Reds pen this year, but the Reds can't keep him at the major league level for four years in the pen, developing him into a starter. The difference between Chapman and Santana is about 28 million dollars, that makes developing him in the pen long term a non starter. It would be a 30M investment to drive up his value for another team to get him in FA.

Say the Reds did this, and he played his entire contract for the Reds, 6 years. He develops into a TOR starter in year 4, still cheap for the Reds, but unlikely to that point that he's truly earned his contract. Years 5 & 6 see sub 3.25 ERA's and 15+ W's (nebulous stats, but you get the idea of the production). Now he's 28 and probably the top pitcher on the FA market. I don't think the Reds can be the team that develops Chapman for the Yankees. He should be starting.