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View Full Version : Can the Reds go far with Coco as the closer?



toledodan
07-07-2010, 10:42 PM
has he had a 1-2-3 inning yet this season?

11larkin11
07-07-2010, 10:44 PM
Cordero is one of the reasons the Reds will go far.

kaldaniels
07-07-2010, 10:45 PM
Least of our worries. Take a look around the league my friend.

_Sir_Charles_
07-07-2010, 10:45 PM
Yes, he's had several. Not as many as many would like. But say what you want, he still gets the job done most nights. Who's the NL saves leader? And that's with him STRUGGLING thus far.

TheNext44
07-07-2010, 10:50 PM
He's a league average closer, there abouts. If the Reds don't make the postseason, I doubt it will be because of Cordero.

But I do have my worries about him in the post season. Not too many teams make it to the World Series without a lights out closer, or at least one who is at that time.

redsmetz
07-07-2010, 10:50 PM
I know he's had some 1-2-3 innings, but whenever someone reaches base, I cry out "why can't he learn to waltz"? Crazy, but he now leads the league in saves, so he's getting it done more times than not, but it's an adventure nearly every time.

I just counted his 1-2-3 games and surprisingly, it totals 11 now, which is a little more than a quarter of his appearances. The fact is, he's getting the job done even if he gives us all heart failure.

kbrake
07-07-2010, 10:51 PM
I'm not overly worried about Cordero. If we get to the postseason just hope the whole team is clicking.

TeamBoone
07-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Totally excellent question...

toledodan
07-07-2010, 11:01 PM
He's a league average closer, there abouts. If the Reds don't make the postseason, I doubt it will be because of Cordero.

But I do have my worries about him in the post season. Not too many teams make it to the World Series without a lights out closer, or at least one who is at that time.

that was kinda my thinking. i'm happy where we are but concerned about him blowing up at some point.

RedEye
07-07-2010, 11:01 PM
Gosh. It has been a really long time since I've worried about what the Reds' closer would do in the post-season. Feels good!

TeamBoone
07-07-2010, 11:02 PM
I know he's had some 1-2-3 innings, but whenever someone reaches base, I cry out "why can't he learn to waltz"? Crazy, but he now leads the league in saves, so he's getting it done more times than not, but it's an adventure nearly every time.
I just counted his 1-2-3 games and surprisingly, it totals 11 now, which is a little more than a quarter of his appearances. The fact is, he's getting the job done even if he gives us all heart failure.

No, he's NOT the one getting it done... the defense behind him is what's getting it done. Perfect example of how a good record tells you absolutely nothing about the pitcher.

Chip R
07-08-2010, 12:08 AM
When was the last time this team blew a late inning lead?

BoydsOfSummer
07-08-2010, 12:09 AM
He doesn't feel like he's living unless he has two on it seems. Which makes my chest hurt. It could be much worse though.

fearofpopvol1
07-08-2010, 02:55 AM
i am definitely concerned about him...and not just for this year, but next. lately though, he has been finding a way to get out of trouble at least.

Big Klu
07-08-2010, 03:00 AM
Has anyone seen the Wheaties commercial with Albert Pujols? Is Cordero the pitcher in that commercial?

redsmetz
07-08-2010, 05:54 AM
No, he's NOT the one getting it done... the defense behind him is what's getting it done. Perfect example of how a good record tells you absolutely nothing about the pitcher.

Since no pitcher strikes out every batter, every pitcher gets it done with the defense behind them (or sometimes doesn't get it done because of a lackluster squad). Really, I don't question that he's shaky at time, but you don't lead the league in saves, have a quarter of your appearances be 1-2-3 innings and not be getting it done. So I'll give credit where some credit is due. But it remains a team sport on defense and the pitcher isn't in an isolation booth.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2010, 10:53 AM
The fact that he is still scraping bye most outings at this point is a bit concerning, he's had good outings but few and far between and hasn't looked himself at all. Just seems to not have the command/control of his pitches that he once had.

Chip R
07-08-2010, 11:01 AM
When was the last time this team blew a late inning lead?


Asking this question again and it's not a rhetorical one.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 11:07 AM
Asking this question again and it's not a rhetorical one.

Back in the beginning of June, one to the Nats and one to the Giants. But neither of those were Cordero.

Last one that Cordero blew...that debacle against Atlanta back in May. So like I said, he makes it interesting, but odds are good that he'll get the job done.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2010, 11:13 AM
Asking this question again and it's not a rhetorical one.

While the answer may have merit, when a guy struggles with consistency like this for this long it doesn't usually end well.

jojo
07-08-2010, 11:22 AM
Cordero is more of a high paid arm than a high leverage arm at this point... His make 'em miss ability has tracked downward every year since his career year with the brewers in '07. His K/9 is currently below league average for a reliever (his: 7.65; NL: 8.0) and his walk rate is higher than league average (his: 4.50; NL: 3.84).

He hasn't fallen off of a cliff, but he is no longer a war hammer either....

Screwball
07-08-2010, 11:29 AM
Has anyone seen the Wheaties commercial with Albert Pujols? Is Cordero the pitcher in that commercial?

Yeah, I've seen that ad a few times and I'm pretty confident that's him.

Chip R
07-08-2010, 11:36 AM
While the answer may have merit, when a guy struggles with consistency like this for this long it doesn't usually end well.


I understand and don't necessarily disagree. However, this bullpen has gone from shaky to solid. I'm not saying Cordero is the reason why but it definitely isn't the concern that it was a month ago. I went to a movie last night and saw the Reds were up 3-1 in the late innings. A month ago, I may have been on pins and needles but in this series and in others lately, I've been confident.

dsmith421
07-08-2010, 11:44 AM
I went to a movie last night and saw the Reds were up 3-1 in the late innings. A month ago, I may have been on pins and needles but in this series and in others lately, I've been confident.

I suspect you wouldn't have been as confident if you'd seen Coco throw a hanger that Davis crushed, walk Thole despite the fact that he was choked up so far he couldn't have hit it out of the infield, and then give up an absolute screaming line drive directly at Stubbs.

Cordero's biggest problem, to me, is an apparent unwillingness to throw inside. I don't think he has any confidence in his command right now.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 11:50 AM
I suspect you wouldn't have been as confident if you'd seen Coco throw a hanger that Davis crushed, walk Thole despite the fact that he was choked up so far he couldn't have hit it out of the infield, and then give up an absolute screaming line drive directly at Stubbs.

Cordero's biggest problem, to me, is an apparent unwillingness to throw inside. I don't think he has any confidence in his command right now.

I agree with all of this...and yet, they STILL didn't score. He may be this seasons version of David Weathers. Smoke and mirrors...but still the end results DO matter.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2010, 12:00 PM
I agree with all of this...and yet, they STILL didn't score. He may be this seasons version of David Weathers. Smoke and mirrors...but still the end results DO matter.

Oh sure the results matter but the point is let's not wait until he implodes to take notice of the potential for a problem and then say oh well he just started to lose games for us so let's give it some time to work itself out. Which is exactly what Dusty and company will do, they look only at the results and not at the tailtale signs (at least publicly). And then use that as an excuse to not replace someone costing us wins right away.

Mario-Rijo
07-08-2010, 12:02 PM
I understand and don't necessarily disagree. However, this bullpen has gone from shaky to solid. I'm not saying Cordero is the reason why but it definitely isn't the concern that it was a month ago. I went to a movie last night and saw the Reds were up 3-1 in the late innings. A month ago, I may have been on pins and needles but in this series and in others lately, I've been confident.

True as a unit they have been better but not until they replaced some guys who we knew needed replacing well before they were willing to do so.

Redsfan320
07-08-2010, 12:04 PM
BTW, the pitcher in the Wheaties commercial is indeed Cordero. Kinda irritates me that he signed on to do a commercial where he gives up a homer to Albert Pujols. Unless it's some sort of Dominican-helping-Dominican thing, I'd say the reason Coco signed on was for the $$$.

320

NJReds
07-08-2010, 12:07 PM
The Mets are asking the same question about KRod. Who knows what the Phillies are thinking. And the Cardinals pen has had a rough couple days, too.

dsmith421
07-08-2010, 12:08 PM
I agree with all of this...and yet, they STILL didn't score. He may be this seasons version of David Weathers. Smoke and mirrors...but still the end results DO matter.

Sure. But eventually you get exposed. Danny Graves had 30-some saves at the All-Star Break once, doing it with mirrors. And then he got shelled for a season and a half. That's why it's ominous that Coco can't seem to get command over his pitches.

Screwball
07-08-2010, 12:12 PM
BTW, the pitcher in the Wheaties commercial is indeed Cordero. Kinda irritates me that he signed on to do a commercial where he gives up a homer to Albert Pujols. Unless it's some sort of Dominican-helping-Dominican thing, I'd say the reason Coco signed on was for the $$$.

320

Eh, I'd say money is reason #1 for virtually every athlete that does a commercial. Besides, they did a pretty good job hiding Cordero's identity. I follow this team religiously and even I had to watch it closely a few times to make sure it was him.

Ron Madden
07-09-2010, 04:00 AM
Who's the NL saves leader?

This is just my humble opinion but I believe the Save is the most over rated stat in baseball.

Do we heap honers on middle relievers who often times come into tighter situations before the 9th inning and retire the side without surrendering a 3 run lead?

toledodan
07-09-2010, 10:56 PM
bump

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 10:56 PM
No.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 10:56 PM
No

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 10:57 PM
Though Dusty leaving Leake in to litter up the bases was pretty stupid.

Tailspin, I almost missed you....

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 11:00 PM
Though Dusty leaving Leake in to litter up the bases was pretty stupid.

That has always been Dusty's thing though. Pushing pitchers more than they are capable of.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:00 PM
Baker fried Cordero in the first 10 weeks of the season.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 11:01 PM
No.

I'm simply stunned. This team has blown a 6 run lead in the 9th inning twice this season. Simply stunning.

Dusty left Leake in way too long, and Rhodes should have replaced him.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:01 PM
Cards ready to gain a game tonight.

Clifford Lee or bust.

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 11:03 PM
Prediction: Dusty lost his job tonight.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:04 PM
Prediction: season over.

Brutus
07-09-2010, 11:04 PM
Dusty Baker should have been omniscient.

:)

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:06 PM
Dusty Baker should have been omniscient.

:)

Two men on. The Phils had stomped his guts back in Cincy. Time to pull Leake.

HeatherC1212
07-09-2010, 11:06 PM
Cordero is going to kill this team if he keeps this up. Yes, Mike probably shouldn't have started the ninth inning but a closer should CLOSE THE DOOR when he only has to get two outs. I am not happy right now. :rant:

Brutus
07-09-2010, 11:08 PM
Two men on. The Phils had stomped his guts back in Cincy. Time to pull Leake.

The Dusty_should_have_(........) song is an overplayed ditty.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:08 PM
The Dusty_should_have_(........) song is an overplayed ditty.

I never play it. Never. Till now. He blew it horribly.

RedsManRick
07-09-2010, 11:10 PM
If Coco was making $3M I'd understand. This happens sometimes. But when you're getting paid more than anybody else on the team... DO YOUR JOB!

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:14 PM
If Coco was making $3M I'd understand. This happens sometimes. But when you're getting paid more than anybody else on the team... DO YOUR JOB!

It's not like he's trying to fail. He's taken the ball way more often than he should have been asked to.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:14 PM
It's not like he's trying to fail. He's taken the ball way more often than he should have been asked to.

Bunk.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 11:16 PM
All he had to do was record 2 outs with a 2 run lead. If he can't do that, he really has no business pitching. The dude is a walks machine.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 11:24 PM
Cordero should immediately be pulled from the closers role. How in the world can you possibly fathom walking Ben freaking Francisco with two outs and nobody on base and the tying run on deck? You have him 1-2, throw strikes! Throw it underhanded if you have to. If he homers, who cares, it's still a one run game.

Brutus
07-09-2010, 11:24 PM
Cordero should immediately be pulled from the closers role. How in the world can you possibly fathom walking Ben freaking Francisco with two outs and nobody on base and the tying run on deck? You have him 1-2, throw strikes! Throw it underhanded if you have to. If he homers, who cares, it's still a one run game.

And replace him with whom, exactly?

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:26 PM
Bunk.

Ramon Hernandez said as much after a game a couple weeks ago. "He's been pitching a lot, and it's tough."

I'm right about this, and have been saying it since April. If you've been paying attention, you know that Cordero is not the same pitcher he was at the start of the year, or in previous years. Baker's use of him this year has been outlandish.

Redhook
07-09-2010, 11:26 PM
And replace him with whom, exactly?

Anyone? Seriously, just about anyone would be better. Just think how lucky Cordero has been to do what he's done this year. He's been pretty bad, but he's been very close to being abysmal. His era is over 4 and he's had to work hard to keep it that low. He's a disaster.

redsfandan
07-09-2010, 11:27 PM
It's not like he's trying to fail. He's taken the ball way more often than he should have been asked to.
Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. Coco has been a drama queen ALL season. Always making things 'interesting'. I think our #1 need just might be a reliable closer.

edit: Ok, unfortunately, we all know that Dusty will still be mismanaging the bullpen and Coco will still probably make things interesting. But, Walt really does have to do something about the bullpen.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 11:28 PM
Ramon Hernandez said as much after a game a couple weeks ago. "He's been pitching a lot, and it's tough."

I'm right about this, and have been saying it since April. If you've been paying attention, you know that Cordero is not the same pitcher he was at the start of the year, or in previous years. Baker's use of him this year has been outlandish.

How do we "know" you're right about this? That's pretty inexact. We have no idea if it is tied to Cordero pitching too much or not. It surely doesn't help, however.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 11:28 PM
And replace him with whom, exactly?

Anyone. Ondrusek, Rhodes, Smith. It doesn't matter. They can't do any worse than Cordero.

I feel so bad for Mike Leake. The Reds have blown two 6 run leads in the 9th inning this season, and both games were started by Mike Leake.

redsfandan
07-09-2010, 11:29 PM
Ramon Hernandez said as much after a game a couple weeks ago. "He's been pitching a lot, and it's tough."

I'm right about this, and have been saying it since April. If you've been paying attention, you know that Cordero is not the same pitcher he was at the start of the year, or in previous years. Baker's use of him this year has been outlandish.
So, he had pitched alot already back in April? Don't think so.

alloverjr
07-09-2010, 11:29 PM
It's not like he's trying to fail. He's taken the ball way more often than he should have been asked to.

Well I would assume he's not trying to be bad. And yes, he's gotten the ball WAY too much.

redsfaninbsg
07-09-2010, 11:32 PM
I've seen enough of Cordero, if anything he's been lucky to put up the saves he has. I say play it game by game in the ninth unless a move is made to acquire a Kerry Wood type.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 11:35 PM
This is just my humble opinion but I believe the Save is the most over rated stat in baseball.


Proven (again) tonight by the league leader in save.

savafan
07-09-2010, 11:37 PM
Whoever said the Reds should look at acquiring Soria from KC, I'm kinda liking that idea.

RBA
07-09-2010, 11:38 PM
Not a chance.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 11:38 PM
This really isn't something that shouldn't have been expected. He's 34, and his K's have gone down steadily the last three years. I seriously doubt he's going to get better.

cincrazy
07-09-2010, 11:38 PM
Whoever said the Reds should look at acquiring Soria from KC, I'm kinda liking that idea.

I call KC tomorrow and offer Votto, Bruce, and Chapman for Soria.

I'm only half kidding.

Brutus
07-09-2010, 11:39 PM
Anyone? Seriously, just about anyone would be better. Just think how lucky Cordero has been to do what he's done this year. He's been pretty bad, but he's been very close to being abysmal. His era is over 4 and he's had to work hard to keep it that low. He's a disaster.

I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.

His ERA is 4.20. Make no mistake, I'm not saying he's exactly been good.

But you're saying he's very close to being abysmal with a 4.20 ERA? That's pretty close to being average for a reliever. I would say there are dozens of better adjectives to describe him before abysmal.

redsfandan
07-09-2010, 11:43 PM
This really isn't something that shouldn't have been expected. He's 34, and his K's have gone down steadily the last three years. I seriously doubt he's going to get better.
Should a closer really pitch like this when they're 34?

I think Mariano Rivera and Billy Wagner would say no.

savafan
07-09-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.

His ERA is 4.20. Make no mistake, I'm not saying he's exactly been good.

But you're saying he's very close to being abysmal with a 4.20 ERA? That's pretty close to being average for a reliever. I would say there are dozens of better adjectives to describe him before abysmal.

That's way below average for a closer though.

paulrichjr
07-09-2010, 11:43 PM
Meanwhile my nephew's travel ball team played David Weather's sons team tonight (David is the coach/10 year old). David's son pitched the first inning and did very well. You want me to ask David if his son is available? I might even take David and his heart attacks...he was better than CoCo

alloverjr
07-09-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.

His ERA is 4.20. Make no mistake, I'm not saying he's exactly been good.

But you're saying he's very close to being abysmal with a 4.20 ERA? That's pretty close to being average for a reliever. I would say there are dozens of better adjectives to describe him before abysmal.

Fat maybe?

Seriously, a 4.20 ERA is poor for any reliever whose not your long man. There's really no defending him or his continual usage. This team will get what it deserves from it's pen.

Redhook
07-09-2010, 11:46 PM
I'm having a hard time reconciling these two statements.

His ERA is 4.20. Make no mistake, I'm not saying he's exactly been good.

But you're saying he's very close to being abysmal with a 4.20 ERA? That's pretty close to being average for a reliever. I would say there are dozens of better adjectives to describe him before abysmal.

Yes, I am. With the amount of baserunners he's allowed, he's a few hits away from having an era of 5+. Personally, I think he's been very, very lucky to keep it where it's at. He's walking a tight-rope out there, and he's due to fall off any day now.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:49 PM
Coco walked the universe two seasons ago as well. He's never had great control, and he's never been a terribly consistent pitcher, even for a reliever. He was a terrible acquisition and total waste of payroll space.

alloverjr
07-09-2010, 11:52 PM
Coco walked the universe two seasons ago as well. He's never had great control, and he's never been a terribly consistent pitcher, even for a reliever. He was a terrible acquisition and total waste of payroll space.

Who Waly was unable or unwilling to unload over the winter. So, does Dusty have the stones to take his $12 mil man out of the closer role and just play matchups on a nightly basis? Or will he continue to "put him back on the horse" as he likes to say? Me, I have no idea why money, sunk money, ever plays into where an individual pitches or bats, or plays.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:54 PM
Well, all in all, a good day to be a Reds' fan, eh? :)

flyer85
07-09-2010, 11:55 PM
he is what he has always been. A middle of the pack closer. It's not like the Reds have other good options

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:56 PM
he is what he has always been. A middle of the pack closer. It's not like the Reds have other good options

At this point though, it couldn't hurt to start grooming someone else, like Chapman or even Smith.

We know exactly what Cordero gives them.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:58 PM
he is what he has always been. A middle of the pack closer. It's not like the Reds have other good options

It appears there are no options because no options have ever been explored.

flyer85
07-09-2010, 11:58 PM
At this point though, it couldn't hurt to start grooming someone else, like Chapman or even Smith.

We know exactly what Cordero gives them.
even if they remove him as closer he will still pitch important innings. IMO it's time for the $30M baby.

alloverjr
07-09-2010, 11:59 PM
Well, all in all, a good day to be a Reds' fan, eh? :)

Agreed. In all seriousness.

Falls City Beer
07-10-2010, 12:01 AM
even if they remove him as closer he will still pitch important innings. IMO it's time for the $30M baby.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "important." From where I sit, after having missed out on Lee, the season is most likely on the downhill slope, so I doubt "important" is exactly what those innings will be, in the grand scheme of things.

redsfandan
07-10-2010, 12:09 AM
Well, all in all, a good day to be a Reds' fan, eh? :)
Well, Volquez had another good start at least.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "important." From where I sit, after having missed out on Lee, the season is most likely on the downhill slope, so I doubt "important" is exactly what those innings will be, in the grand scheme of things.
So, the sky is falling now?

Walt has to address the bullpen. That's really all we can expect. But, this ONE loss or not getting Cliff Lee doesn't mean "the season is most likely on the downhill slope".

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:13 AM
Well, Volquez had another good start at least.

So, the sky is falling now?

Walt has to address the bullpen. That's really all we can expect. But, this ONE loss or not getting Cliff Lee doesn't mean "the season is most likely on the downhill slope".

If Walt goes out and gets a couple arms for the pen, does Cordero still close? Which actually goes to something that bugs the crud out of me - Why does there have to be a "closer"? You play matchups from the 6th through the 8th, but come the 9th you drop your logic down the crapper.

Falls City Beer
07-10-2010, 12:14 AM
So, the sky is falling now?

Was it ever really up high enough to fall? deltachi phrased it best: this club has led a charmed life. Some stats are now coming home to roost.

redsfandan
07-10-2010, 12:16 AM
If Walt goes out and gets a couple arms for the pen, does Cordero still close? Which actually goes to something that bugs the crud out of me - Why does there have to be a "closer"? You play matchups from the 6th through the 8th, but come the 9th you drop your logic down the crapper.
Yes, Coco will likely still be the closer.

Why? Cuz once baseball starts doing something (like saying that it's time for a 'closer' since it's the 9th inning) it takes forever for them to stop doing it.

redsfandan
07-10-2010, 12:19 AM
Was it ever really up high enough to fall? deltachi phrased it best: this club has led a charmed life. Some stats are now coming home to roost.
Sorry Chicken Little but I'm not convinced.

Unfortunately, it's harder since Dusty is managing the pitchers but we'll have reinforcements in the minors and Walt trying to get more. Just gotta hold out hope for the best. We've still got a good team. And they bounced back pretty well from the loss in Atlanta. I think they'll do the same now.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:20 AM
Why? Cuz once baseball starts doing something (like saying that it's time for a 'closer' since it's the 9th inning) it takes forever for them to stop doing it.and because they are paying him $12m to pitch high leverage innings and because Dusty is loyal to his veteran players.

Falls City Beer
07-10-2010, 12:20 AM
Just gotta hold out hope for the best.

Yep. In Cincy, it's always finger-crossing time.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:23 AM
and because they are paying him $12m to pitch high leverage innings and because Dusty is loyal to his veteran players.

But isn't Dusty playing for a contract too? Self preservation.

redsfandan
07-10-2010, 12:23 AM
and because they are paying him $12m to pitch high leverage innings and because Dusty is loyal to his veteran players.
Unfortunately, those two things are way too true.

Yep. In Cincy, it's always finger-crossing time.
It's finger crossing time all over baseball everyday. This was one game. There'll be another tomorrow.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:26 AM
But isn't Dusty playing for a contract too? Self preservation.Dusty manages every game like it is the last game he will ever manage. He didn't want to risk inserting a young pitcher between Leake and Cordero. That is really what the 9th inning was about.

Falls City Beer
07-10-2010, 12:27 AM
Unfortunately, those two things are way too true.

It's finger crossing time all over baseball everyday. This was one game. There'll be another tomorrow.

Texas did the opposite of cross their fingers. They kicked down the door, and beat the crap out of the punk sitting there whimpering and crossing his fingers.

Fortune favors the brave.

reds1869
07-10-2010, 12:28 AM
Coco is mentally broken right now. You can see it in the way he carries himself. He might not admit it, but he doesn't have a shred of belief in his stuff. Cordero is still a fine reliever but he doesn't need to be on the mound in high leverage situations right now. I'd love to see the club get a few more arms for the back of the pen and let Cordero work it out in middle relief.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:30 AM
Cordero is year older, overworked and the good luck from last year has dried up.

redsfandan
07-10-2010, 12:35 AM
Texas did the opposite of cross their fingers. They kicked down the door, and beat the crap out of the punk sitting there whimpering and crossing his fingers.

Fortune favors the brave.
Oh c'mon, Seattle just wanted Smoak. We can't make a deal with a team if that team wants a player we don't have.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:35 AM
Dusty manages every game like it is the last game he will ever manage. He didn't want to risk inserting a young pitcher between Leake and Cordero. That is really what the 9th inning was about.

Disagree. He would have been Capt Hook with a bullet when Leake let a couple guys reach he he managed that way. And I can't fathom where he gets his confidence in Cordero. He just has his preconcieved ideas about who and where players are plugged. I mean, Cabrerra's a good handler of the bat, right?

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:37 AM
Oh c'mon, Seattle just wanted Smoak. that is the way I read the trade. And if they are right then the trade works great. IMO, quality is more important than quantity when trading for prospects.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Disagree. He would have been Capt Hook with a bullet when Leake let a couple guys reach he he managed that way. And I can't fathom where he gets his confidence in Cordero. He just has his preconcieved ideas about who and where players are plugged. I mean, Cabrerra's a good handler of the bat, right?
cordero and Rhodes have been overworked and he didn't want to use them unless absolutely necessary AND he doesn't trust any of his young relievers.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:40 AM
I mean, Cabrerra's a good handler of the bat, right?Ocab is a veteran and he trusts him more than a young guy and Carbrera has spent most of his career batting up in the order.

savafan
07-10-2010, 12:42 AM
Ocab is a veteran and he trusts him more than a young guy and Carbrera has spent most of his career batting up in the order.

Dusty was like this in San Francisco and Chicago...it really shouldn't surprise us.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:44 AM
Dusty was like this in San Francisco and Chicago...it really shouldn't surprise us.
it's who Dusty is and he isn't going to change.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:47 AM
Ocab is a veteran and he trusts him more than a young guy and Carbrera has spent most of his career batting up in the order.

So your saying that to Dusty, results don't matter? C'mon. Although I guess it's true.

WVRedsFan
07-10-2010, 12:47 AM
I agree with all of this...and yet, they STILL didn't score. He may be this seasons version of David Weathers. Smoke and mirrors...but still the end results DO matter.In his last 10 appearances--9.2 innings of work, he's allowed 9 hit and 6 earned runs. He's walked 9 and struck out only 6. He is not effective and it looks like he won't be the rest of the season. His ERA is over 5 for that perios and for the season, 4.36 which is horrid for a closer, or even for a reliever. Everyone can put their head in the sand and pretend that he's great and will leae the Reds from the bullpen, but the evidence says the otherwise. Having a rosy attitude stops when the statistics, what baseball is based upon, tell you otherwise.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:49 AM
So your saying that to Dusty, results don't matter? C'mon. Although I guess it's true.
what I am saying is that Dusty will trust his veteran players past the point when it is obvious that they can't get the job done. And he isn't going to kick them to the curb for an unproven youngster.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:53 AM
what I am saying is that Dusty will trust his veteran players past the point when it is obvious that they can't get the job done. And he isn't going to kick them to the curb for an unproven youngster.

Character flaw.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:58 AM
Character flaw.
not necessarily, it depends on the composition of the team

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 01:02 AM
not necessarily, it depends on the composition of the team

Works fine if your vets are producing. Production over tenure. Management 101. I know we're not arguing the results, I just fail to see why Dusty or anyone would follow this line of reasoning.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2010, 01:02 AM
Coco walked the universe two seasons ago as well. He's never had great control, and he's never been a terribly consistent pitcher, even for a reliever. He was a terrible acquisition and total waste of payroll space.

Funny how fickle your opinions can be...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1500749&highlight=cordero#post1500749

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1500817&highlight=cordero#post1500817

Falls City Beer
07-10-2010, 01:13 AM
Funny how fickle your opinions can be...

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1500749&highlight=cordero#post1500749

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1500817&highlight=cordero#post1500817

He was good in 2007. What can I say, I fell for the same thing Krivsky did, a career year. I thought his career arc would stabilize, but he got to Cincy and went downhill.

traderumor
07-10-2010, 01:27 AM
He has resorted to nibbling the last two years, throwing 95 MPH fastballs and a hard slider that he can consistently hit the outer third of the plate. So he walks folks, gets nervous to walk another and brings in a fastball down the middle. Why he nibbles with his stuff is beyond me, but he has for two years now. Teams are laying off knowing he will not throw two straight strikes. Watching it nightly has made the pattern pretty clear.

Pryce, tell him if he's gonna die, die with his best stuff and quit nibbling, because the nibbling already has him flatlining.

OnBaseMachine
07-10-2010, 01:52 AM
No lie, I turn the channel every time Cordero enters the game. He about gives me a heart attack every time he enters the game. I can't take watching him pitch anymore. He's been playing with fire lately by putting runners on base every time he pitches and tonight it finally caught up to him. Walking Ben Francisco with two outs and the tying run on deck is just a huge no-no. Walking Francisco in that situation is the worst thing you can do. But Cordero shouldn't have even been in the game, IMO. I would have pulled Leake after Howard's bloop single and brought in either Bray or Rhodes. Allowing Leake to face Dobbs was crazy, IMO.

Just when I was starting to get over the loss in Atlanta they go out and do it again...

TheNext44
07-10-2010, 01:54 AM
Posted this is the other thread, the realized it fits better here.

I am not sure exactly what is wrong with Cordero, but I have suspicion it involves doughnuts...


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bxEuF4LrxkU/ShyxOi7eNAI/AAAAAAAABzw/8IswQsPc6xY/s400/scan-2009-Topps-563-FranciscoCordero.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0909/mlb.fantasy.studs.duds.week22/images/francisco-cordero.jpg

nate
07-10-2010, 09:10 AM
ut Cordero shouldn't have even been in the game, IMO. I would have pulled Leake after Howard's bloop single and brought in either Bray or Rhodes. Allowing Leake to face Dobbs was crazy, IMO.

This. No excuse for Cordero's crappy performance but he shouldn't have even been in there.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2010, 10:18 AM
Dusty stated he was trying to avoid using Bray or Rhodes.

RedsBaron
07-10-2010, 10:36 AM
To answer the question posed as the title to this thread: NO.

lollipopcurve
07-10-2010, 11:10 AM
Dusty stated he was trying to avoid using Bray or Rhodes.

Yet, he didn't.

Why avoid Bray? He threw to 2 batters the night before and hadn't pitched the night before that. Maybe he's injured, or he was sick, I don't know. But, if not, it's surprising that Baker would be pampering Bray, given the way he's handled some of the other guys in the pen, wouldn't you say?

TheNext44
07-10-2010, 11:57 AM
What about trying Volquez as the closer? Good way to ease him back after TJ surgery. Maybe try him as set up guy at first and move him to closer the next time Cordero blows a save.

Nasty_Boy
07-10-2010, 02:53 PM
You'll have blown saves like the one that Lidge had the night before, that stuff happens... But Cordero over the last few years has given up some games that have really swung the momentum the Reds have built as a team. I remember the HR to David Wright right after the All-Star break a few years ago when this team had started playing well, not to mention the Cody Ross bomb in Florida that season. The Reds saved his butt in Oakland when they needed a win in the worst way a few weeks ago. Cordero is easy to scout and guys look for fastballs away. If he doesn't get ahead in the count then he can't use his slider... He's become incredibly predictable! There's a ton that went wrong in the 9th last night, but to me the walk to Francisco was just inexcusable!!! I wasn't nervous until that happend... And he got beat on another fastball away, a la Cody Ross, David Wright, Kevin Kousmanoff style. Mix it up my man, it's tough to pull 97 on the inner half but its easy to go with it if your only throwing it to one side of the plate.

WVRedsFan
07-10-2010, 02:56 PM
He was good in 2007. What can I say, I fell for the same thing Krivsky did, a career year. I thought his career arc would stabilize, but he got to Cincy and went downhill. Codero has been less than good or automatic in his time with Cincinnati. He's appeared in 183 games (shockingly 43 this year already), allowed 160 hits as well as 90 walks! He blew 6 saves in 70 innings in 2008 and 4 in 66 innings in 2009. He already has 6 this year through 40 innings and 43 games. Wow.

He's had one year in his career where he was lights out - 2007 and Krivsky gave up the farm for him. I just thank the Lord that we only have two other players that Wayneo brought in, Phillips and Arroyo, left ont he roster. They have worked pretty well.

Trade him if you can. If not, use him in certain situations and do not sign him again.

klw
07-10-2010, 04:34 PM
I am curious what the Reds record is since the start of 2008 when they are leading after 8 innings. I am sure it is something horrible like 130 wins and 6 losses or something like that.

OnBaseMachine
07-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Since Cordero arrived in Cincy, he has been apart of three games where the Reds blew a six run lead in the 9th inning.

May 14, 2008. Reds led the Marlins 6-0 entering the top of the 9th inning in GABP. Mike Lincoln started the 9th inning and allowed allowed three runs without recording an out and was responsible for another runner on base. Cordero entered the game with a score of 6-3 and gave up a single followed by a game tying 3-run to Cody Ross. The Reds went on to win 7-6 in 10 innings on a Paul Janish RBI single in his major league debut.

May 20, 2010. The Reds led the Braves 9-3 entering the bottom of the 9th inning in Atlanta. Once again the deadly duo of Mike Lincoln and Cordero combined to give up the majority of the runs as Cordero gave up a walk off grand slam to Brooks Conrad to blow a six run lead in the final inning.

July 9th, 2010. Seven weeks after blowing a six run lead in the 9th inning, Cordero plays another huge role in blowing another six run lead. Reds carry a 7-1 lead into the 9th inning, Dusty leaves the starter in a batter too long and allows the Phillies to make a gam of it. Cordero enters with one out and nobody on base. Surprisingly enough, he retired the first batter and got ahead of the next batter 1-2. In typical Cordero fashion, he started nibbling around and walked Ben Francisco and then served up a 2-run HR to the great Cody Ransom. Reds lost 9-7 in 10 innings.

Blowing a six run lead in the 9th inning should never happen at the major league level, yet the Reds and Cordero have done it three times in a little over two years. Those two losses could prove to be costly at the end of this season.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2010, 04:55 PM
What about trying Volquez as the closer? Good way to ease him back after TJ surgery. Maybe try him as set up guy at first and move him to closer the next time Cordero blows a save.

All depends on if the Reds acquire another starting pitcher or not. Plus, I am worried he'll walk too many batters.

jojo
07-10-2010, 05:05 PM
This was posted in the Dusty thread about last night. It compares Cordero against other closers (i.e. his peers). It should be noted that even when he's compared against all relievers (not just ones considered "high leverage") his peripherals are below average.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2153916&postcount=104


Here's where Cordero falls within that cohort (closers as defined by having at least 10 saves at this point in the season) based upon SV%, K/9, BB/9, K/BB, and FIP:



Name SV% Name K/9 Name BB/9 Name K/BB Name FIP
Rafael Soriano 0.96 Carlos Marmol 17.04 Jon Rauch 1.09 Jonathan Broxton 7.87 Jonathan Broxton 1.22
Bobby Jenks 0.95 Billy Wagner 13.62 Ryan Franklin 1.34 Jon Rauch 6.01 Heath Bell 1.95
Jose Valverde 0.95 Jonathan Broxton 12.91 Mariano Rivera 1.57 Mariano Rivera 5.51 Carlos Marmol 2.02
Ryan Franklin 0.94 Brian Wilson 12.39 Matt Capps 1.63 Joakim Soria 4.79 Brian Wilson 2.05
Joakim Soria 0.93 Heath Bell 12 Jonathan Broxton 1.64 Billy Wagner 4.59 Billy Wagner 2.24
Neftali Feliz 0.92 Joakim Soria 11.2 Rafael Soriano 1.93 Matt Capps 4.57 Mariano Rivera 2.28
Brian Wilson 0.92 Francisco Rodriguez 11.09 Leo Nunez 2.27 Rafael Soriano 4.14 Leo Nunez 2.28
Mariano Rivera 0.91 Octavio Dotel 10.9 Joakim Soria 2.34 Leo Nunez 3.89 Matt Lindstrom 2.86
Jonathan Broxton 0.90 Bobby Jenks 10.8 Andrew Bailey 2.5 Ryan Franklin 3.81 Bobby Jenks 2.87
Heath Bell 0.88 Neftali Feliz 10.4 Manny Corpas 2.87 Heath Bell 3.49 Rafael Soriano 2.88
Billy Wagner 0.87 Kevin Gregg 10.09 Billy Wagner 2.97 Neftali Feliz 3.34 Francisco Rodriguez 2.89
average 0.86 average 9.63 Jonathan Papelbon 3.09 Brian Wilson 3.28 Joakim Soria 3.01
Jonathan Papelbon 0.86 Chad Qualls 9.2 Neftali Feliz 3.11 Francisco Rodriguez 3.12 Jose Valverde 3.02
Kevin Gregg 0.86 David Aardsma 8.89 Matt Lindstrom 3.15 average 3.05 average 3.17
Matt Capps 0.85 Leo Nunez 8.83 average 3.15 Carlos Marmol 2.85 Jon Rauch 3.22
Andrew Bailey 0.85 Mariano Rivera 8.65 Heath Bell 3.44 Bobby Jenks 2.71 Neftali Feliz 3.28
Carlos Marmol 0.84 Jose Valverde 8.05 Francisco Rodriguez 3.56 Andrew Bailey 2.60 Andrew Bailey 3.6
Francisco Rodriguez 0.83 Rafael Soriano 7.99 Chad Qualls 3.56 Chad Qualls 2.58 Matt Capps 3.69
Matt Lindstrom 0.83 Jonathan Papelbon 7.97 Brian Wilson 3.78 Jonathan Papelbon 2.58 Kevin Gregg 3.7
Jon Rauch 0.83 Matt Lindstrom 7.6 Jose Valverde 3.79 Octavio Dotel 2.47 Ryan Franklin 3.87
Octavio Dotel 0.83 Francisco Cordero 7.52 Bobby Jenks 3.98 Matt Lindstrom 2.41 Octavio Dotel 3.93
Francisco Cordero 0.80 Matt Capps 7.45 David Aardsma 4.28 Jose Valverde 2.12 Manny Corpas 4.04
David Aardsma 0.80 Jon Rauch 6.55 Octavio Dotel 4.41 David Aardsma 2.08 Chad Qualls 4.08
Leo Nunez 0.79 Andrew Bailey 6.5 Francisco Cordero 4.87 Kevin Gregg 2.05 David Aardsma 4.59
Chad Qualls 0.75 Manny Corpas 5.74 Kevin Gregg 4.91 Manny Corpas 2.00 Jonathan Papelbon 4.7
Manny Corpas 0.71 Ryan Franklin 5.1 Carlos Marmol 5.98 Francisco Cordero 1.54 Francisco Cordero 4.87


Basically Cordero is at the bottom of the list for every peripheral associated with high leverage when compared to a cohort of his peers...

Given his peripherals have trended in this direction since his career contract year, it's more likely that what we see is what we get with Cordero rather than a narrative that Dusty is wearing Cordero down (though that probably isn't helping).

Bottom line IMHO, is that Cordero is no longer a high leverage arm and he's in the closer role more because of living off of reputation than because of his true skill.

It's a bit ironic that when they finally need a sledge hammer, he's waning.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2010, 05:09 PM
I think the absolute best we can hope for is Cordero's numbers improve after the season ends and we trade him with a decent prospect in hopes of dumping his salary. Even that is a long shot, I realize.

Blitz Dorsey
07-10-2010, 05:09 PM
At least Coco keeps himself in good physical shape.

Oh, never mind, he's a complete fat-(bleep).

mdccclxix
07-10-2010, 05:13 PM
I'm having trouble remembering what his strikeout pitch is (was). Slider or change?

in 2008 he was around 10k's per 9.

Anymore, he just throws straight fastballs outside.

Redhook
07-10-2010, 06:26 PM
Wow, that's for posting that Jojo. Looks like he stinks to me.

Ron Madden
07-10-2010, 06:29 PM
I'm having trouble remembering what his strikeout pitch is (was). Slider or change?

in 2008 he was around 10k's per 9.

Anymore, he just throws straight fastballs outside.


and sliders in the dirt.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 08:36 PM
What about Wood as the closer? When Harang, Bailey and Volquez come back some folks are going to have to move. Maloney is obviously the 1st to go. But then what? I'd only be looking at this year for Wood but you don't have to throw 97 to close. Throw strikes, change speeds, pitch inside. All seem to missing right now from the current provider.

fearofpopvol1
07-10-2010, 08:40 PM
Since Cordero arrived in Cincy, he has been apart of three games where the Reds blew a six run lead in the 9th inning.

May 14, 2008. Reds led the Marlins 6-0 entering the top of the 9th inning in GABP. Mike Lincoln started the 9th inning and allowed allowed three runs without recording an out and was responsible for another runner on base. Cordero entered the game with a score of 6-3 and gave up a single followed by a game tying 3-run to Cody Ross. The Reds went on to win 7-6 in 10 innings on a Paul Janish RBI single in his major league debut.

May 20, 2010. The Reds led the Braves 9-3 entering the bottom of the 9th inning in Atlanta. Once again the deadly duo of Mike Lincoln and Cordero combined to give up the majority of the runs as Cordero gave up a walk off grand slam to Brooks Conrad to blow a six run lead in the final inning.

July 9th, 2010. Seven weeks after blowing a six run lead in the 9th inning, Cordero plays another huge role in blowing another six run lead. Reds carry a 7-1 lead into the 9th inning, Dusty leaves the starter in a batter too long and allows the Phillies to make a gam of it. Cordero enters with one out and nobody on base. Surprisingly enough, he retired the first batter and got ahead of the next batter 1-2. In typical Cordero fashion, he started nibbling around and walked Ben Francisco and then served up a 2-run HR to the great Cody Ransom. Reds lost 9-7 in 10 innings.

Blowing a six run lead in the 9th inning should never happen at the major league level, yet the Reds and Cordero have done it three times in a little over two years. Those two losses could prove to be costly at the end of this season.

1st team in MLB history to give up 6 runs in the bottom of the 9th twice in 1 season.

Redsfan320
07-10-2010, 09:14 PM
On a side note, one thing I gathered from the stats jojo posted: Jonathan Broxton is awesome.

320

savafan
07-11-2010, 12:09 AM
Here's a crazy thought, why not try Homer Bailey out as the closer? I think he could be lights out for an inning or even two at the end of a game, and may have the mental toughness needed for saving ballgames. In my opinion, there's no way Travis Wood gets taken out of the rotation with what he's done so far.

WVRedsFan
07-11-2010, 12:39 AM
I understand that tonight it looks like Bailey is through for the season. Apparently came from John Fay, but I can't find it.

savafan
07-11-2010, 12:46 AM
I understand that tonight it looks like Bailey is through for the season. Apparently came from John Fay, but I can't find it.

RT @irabird: I'd say Homer is done for the year, no matter what the 'suits' say.NRExpected.//Suits? Talked to Bailey. He's set on being back

edabbs44
07-12-2010, 11:56 PM
What I'm truly excited about is that Cordero is still on the books for next year. Just a poor signing all around.

Reds1
07-13-2010, 02:14 AM
A buddy of mine was saying his stats are worst then any of the top teams in the leauge and he has more blown saves and a higher ERA then most. His walks are very high. His command is not where it was last year and he's given up a lot of HRs and many times a walk in front of it. That being said I'm not sure what they can do. Just hope he can get back some command. 80% is his current save/blown ratio. That's very Graves like. Hope he gets it together. His stuff looks sound, but not hitting his spots and getting behind and having to groove it.

toledodan
09-12-2010, 09:02 PM
bump.