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cincrazy
07-08-2010, 06:45 PM
There's no gaurantee Lee gets us where we wanna go either. I can easily see a scenario where we get Lee and still don't make the playoffs. WIll it have been worth it then? I don't know considering we are already drawing far better as of late. At least it seems like the past 3-4 weeks we have drawn better attendance so what is the downside to not getting Lee? I think we have every right to think Lee is a luxury and barter with that leverage in mind.

Again you gotta look at the realistic suitors (not the ones who are just likely trying to drive up the price) and their ammunition and make your offer as firm as they can and IMO that doesn't include any 2 of those 3 but if one of the 2 is Wood I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Just don't overbid Walt and we likely still come out with Lee.

I understand your point. But on the flip side, what if we keep Mez and Wood, and four years from now they're average at best major league players, we're struggling to finish .500, and we think back to a few years before and say "Man... we had our shot, and we passed."

If this team continues to draft as well as it's drafted, Wood, Mez, and all the rest should be replacable, correct? Roll the dice. Take a chance. Just my opinion, and if a move doesn't happen, I won't be devastated. I like the core of this team, and I like the youth. But I'd also be willing to move the youth for one of the top 5 pitchers in the game.

RedsManRick
07-08-2010, 06:51 PM
I always hear that and I just don't buy it for teams that build from within, like the Reds have. Teams that aren't a flash in the pan, everything broke just right, don't just fall off the face of the Earth. The Reds aren't going anywhere. The year didn't pick them. They put together a good organization full of good players. That is why they are here, not because 'the year picked them'.

Yes and no. The year doesn't turn you from a 70 win team to a 90 win team. But unless you've got a 95 win team, it makes sense to buy wins 88 through 92 if you can. Regardless of how you ended up with an 88 win team, teams in that general range stand to gain the greatest benefit from adding short-term talent.

Now, if you're the Yankees and you expect to be in the playoffs every year, you probably don't sell out in that 88 win season. But when you struggle to win every year, and particularly if you're looking to change the tone of the organization, you should capitalize on your opportunities. Realistically, barring injury, in the next 2 years Alonso does not have a role on this team. Neither does Frazier. Mesoraco won't likely be ready until late 2012 at the earliest.

Even well built team's don't have windows that last forever. In my humble opinion, we'd be silly to let a few prospects who don't fit get in the way of a Cliff Lee acquisition that not only significantly improves our chances this year but gives us 2 solid prospects through the 2011 draft.

TRF
07-08-2010, 06:53 PM
I always hear that and I just don't buy it for teams that build from within, like the Reds have. Teams that aren't a flash in the pan, everything broke just right, don't just fall off the face of the Earth. The Reds aren't going anywhere. The year didn't pick them. They put together a good organization full of good players. That is why they are here, not because 'the year picked them'.

thing is, for teams like the Reds its especially true. They can't compete on the open market like the east coast teams. When an opportunity to land the best pitcher in baseball without paying mega millions for him comes along, you leap on it.

I say it again, does anyone regret the fact that BJ Ryan didn't save a single game for the Reds?

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 07:02 PM
thing is, for teams like the Reds its especially true. They can't compete on the open market like the east coast teams. When an opportunity to land the best pitcher in baseball without paying mega millions for him comes along, you leap on it.

I say it again, does anyone regret the fact that BJ Ryan didn't save a single game for the Reds?

BJ Ryan was a reliever. Easier to find those guys than starters and every day players.

And you say things like 'without paying mega millions', but how many millions might we have to spend to replace Wood in the rotation? What about Mesoraco as a catcher in two years when we have no catcher to speak of?

Sea Ray
07-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Actually GM's like to trade around the deadline and fans like to talk about possible trades. Is that really shocking news?

How quickly we forget...the Bedard deal was an off season thread, not a deadline deal

mdccclxix
07-08-2010, 07:35 PM
Here's a deadline deal comp for you - a tale of caution:

Mark Texiera for 1.5 years and about 16 million due from Texas to ATL for:

Beau Jones - decent reliever still in AAA
Elvis Andrus - AS in 2nd year
Neftali Feliz - amazing pitcher
Matt Harrison - decent #4 or 5 starter for Texas
Jarrod Salt. - great defensive catcher - was uber prospect once

:eek: Wow!

That was for 1.5 years.

The next year, ATL was out of it and wanted a return for Tex at the deadline. For half a season to Anaheim, they got:

Casey Kotchman - former 1st rounder - very, very average, prolly below average now, 1b
Stephen Marek - reliever in AAA

:eek: Wow!

What an awful spin for ATL. Awful, awful, awful.

Discuss.

oneupper
07-08-2010, 07:46 PM
Here's a deadline deal comp for you - a tale of caution:

Mark Texiera for 1.5 years and about 16 million due from Texas to ATL for:

Beau Jones - decent reliever still in AAA
Elvis Andrus - AS in 2nd year
Neftali Feliz - amazing pitcher
Matt Harrison - decent #4 or 5 starter for Texas
Jarrod Salt. - great defensive catcher - was uber prospect once

:eek: Wow!

That was for 1.5 years.

The next year, ATL was out of it and wanted a return for Tex at the deadline. For half a season to Anaheim, they got:

Casey Kotchman - former 1st rounder - very, very average, prolly below average now, 1b
Stephen Marek - reliever in AAA

:eek: Wow!

What an awful spin for ATL. Awful, awful, awful.

Discuss.

That means not to go after Roy Oswalt? (who has 1.5 yrs left)

backbencher
07-08-2010, 08:22 PM
Discuss.

The $16MM has a lot to do with it.

backbencher
07-08-2010, 08:26 PM
I always hear that and I just don't buy it for teams that build from within, like the Reds have. Teams that aren't a flash in the pan, everything broke just right, don't just fall off the face of the Earth. The Reds aren't going anywhere. The year didn't pick them. They put together a good organization full of good players. That is why they are here, not because 'the year picked them'.

Let's suppose that Rolen's back goes out in April 2011. Or a pitcher shreds an elbow. Or the Reds don't have a reliever with a sub-1.00 ERA. Or Pujols hits .350 instead of .300.

"The year chooses you" is not about being an 88 win team. It's about a ring.

RedsMan3203
07-08-2010, 08:27 PM
The lastest on Lee.... Rangers are in the front seat I suppose...


One rival general manager tells Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com that the Rangers have become the favorite to land Cliff Lee.
According to the report, Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik covets rookie first baseman Justin Smoak. However, the Rangers' reluctance to include Smoak in an offer for Lee is one of the biggest hurdles in the way of a deal. There's also the issue of the approximately $4 million remaining on Lee's contract for this season, a figure that is too expensive for the Rangers to afford. It's possible the Mariners could cover the cost of Lee's salary should the team be willing to trade better players or prospects. It's unlikely, but Smoak would certainly fit that description

Boss-Hog
07-08-2010, 08:43 PM
Please post all news in the appropriate thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83398) and leave the discussion, trade ideas, etc. in this thread.

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 08:51 PM
Let's suppose that Rolen's back goes out in April 2011. Or a pitcher shreds an elbow. Or the Reds don't have a reliever with a sub-1.00 ERA. Or Pujols hits .350 instead of .300.

"The year chooses you" is not about being an 88 win team. It's about a ring.

And what if none of those things happen? What if Cliff Lee shreds his elbow on his 14th pitch after he is traded?

jojo
07-08-2010, 08:56 PM
And what if none of those things happen? What if Cliff Lee shreds his elbow on his 14th pitch after he is traded?

Or what if he has a FIP of .25 over the second half?

backbencher
07-08-2010, 09:02 PM
And what if none of those things happen? What if Cliff Lee shreds his elbow on his 14th pitch after he is traded?

Then you tried, and you still might have your 88 win season.

Votto, Rolen, Phillips, Hernandez, Gomes, Cordero and Rhodes all have probably played as well as they ever will play in a half a season for the rest of their careers. All have been as healthy as they ever are likely to be.


Take advantage of it.

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 09:02 PM
Or what if he has a FIP of .25 over the second half?

I probably poop my pants.

Let me note, I am not against going after Lee. I am just not sure I am willing to pay any price to acquire him either.

mdccclxix
07-08-2010, 09:15 PM
That means not to go after Roy Oswalt? (who has 1.5 yrs left)

Or, if you're going to give up the bank, which is what ATL did, make sure it's for 1.5 years. I'm not sure how the money worked out, perhaps Texas paid the remaining 2007 salary. It looks like ATL gave all those prospects and had to pay Texiera 12 mil the next year as well. Then they flipped him for 1 1st round mlb player and a reliever, likely not paying the last of his 12 million owed.

In relation to Cliff Lee, look how much less Tex was worth with just a half a season left and free agency pending.

blumj
07-08-2010, 09:19 PM
I don't think Salty was ever considered a great defensive catcher, and I think I heard he has that problem now where he can't throw the ball back to the pitcher or something like that?

Sea Ray
07-08-2010, 09:19 PM
I probably poop my pants.

Let me note, I am not against going after Lee. I am just not sure I am willing to pay any price to acquire him either.

That's really what this discussion is all about. All of us would love to have Lee. It's just a matter of what he's worth. Interestingly as long as this thread is we haven't even gotten into the issue of who pays him. If the Reds pony up major prospects then I expect Seattle to pay the $4mill remaining

Eric_the_Red
07-08-2010, 09:29 PM
Sure there may be other pitchers available, but Lee is the best pitcher having his best season. And maybe a historically good season.

With 89 Ks and only 6 BBs, Lee has a K:BB ratio of 14.83.

The best season ratio is Bret Saberhagen's 11.00 in 1994. Second best is Curt Schilling's 9.58 in 2002, followed by Pedro Martinez' 8.88 in 2000.

So, yeah....I think Lee is far superior to any other option this year.

MikeS21
07-08-2010, 09:30 PM
I'm not opposed to going after Cliff Lee either. And we should expect to give up quality for quality. But to overpay for a rental is short-sighted. Now, sign Lee to a LTC, and I'm willing to reconsider. Jocketty has signed some high priced players to LTC's while in St.L. Who is to say he can't swing a deal with Cliff Lee?

But if Lee is serious about testing the FA market, as I said earlier, offer the M's Alonso and Maloney. Throw in a Frazier or Valaika to seal the deal. But Mesoraco and Fransisco ought to be off the table until Lee signs a LTC. Left up to me, Wood is going no where.

I don't see the Rangers giving up Smoak for a half season of Lee.

mth123
07-08-2010, 10:26 PM
Some points:


- Many are arguing Lee isn't worth two blue chip prospects since he's only a rental. I agree, but the issue is that I don't see anyone suggesting that the Reds trade their blue chippers. The Blue chippers are Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Chapman, Leake and some younger guys who are talented but too young to really know what the reds have like Yorman and Hamilton. Wood, Alonoso, Heisey, Francisco, Frazier, Maloney and even Stubbs may be among the best young guys on the reds and will be good to useful players IMO, but that doesn't automatically make them blue chippers. Organizational scarcity would have me shying away from dealing Mesoraco or Cozart, but they really aren't blue chippers either.

- Like many, I thought that the Reds window of opportunity would be in the 2011 to 2015 range and it still could be, but this year the Reds are probably getting the best that Rolen, Phillips, Hernandez and Rhodes have left in their careers while the Cards are flawed, Philly is not healthy and the rest of the NL is mediocre. The convergence of performance and opportunity may never be better to go for it.

-

SirFelixCat
07-08-2010, 11:57 PM
I'm not opposed to going after Cliff Lee either. And we should expect to give up quality for quality. But to overpay for a rental is short-sighted. Now, sign Lee to a LTC, and I'm willing to reconsider. Jocketty has signed some high priced players to LTC's while in St.L. Who is to say he can't swing a deal with Cliff Lee?

But if Lee is serious about testing the FA market, as I said earlier, offer the M's Alonso and Maloney. Throw in a Frazier or Valaika to seal the deal. But Mesoraco and Fransisco ought to be off the table until Lee signs a LTC. Left up to me, Wood is going no where.

I don't see the Rangers giving up Smoak for a half season of Lee.

This is precisely what I was coming to post. Maloney is the only MLB-ready pitcher I'm willing to part with and I'd be ok w/ Alonso being the bat. Any more than that, save for maaaaybe the two mentioned and I wouldn't be willing. If Lee had another year on the contract, then sure. But as is, that would be my limit.

membengal
07-09-2010, 12:15 AM
Mesaraco has gone 2b, 3b, HR tonite for Carolina. His OPS is at .923 in AA after being 1.000+ in A ball before his promotion. He just turned 22. He's throwing out near 50% of the attempted base stealers against him this year.

I remain real hesitant to deal him for a rental. He is a potential effective in-house solution to catcher at club controlled prices for the decade. Those don't come along too often. In fact, if you are the Reds, they have not come along much at all since Bench retired. Viable in-house catchers drafted and developed by the Reds since Bench? Oliver, LaRue, Hanigan? Am I missing anyone? Of those three, only LaRue was stand-out at any point in the minors, OPSing 1.046 in his AA season, but he did that as a 24-year-old, not two years younger like Mes is now doing.

If we are going to toss names around for potential deals, we might as well consider what the names represent in terms of talent. Mes may be the real deal at a very difficult to fill position. Worth a mention.

Chip R
07-09-2010, 12:16 AM
I don't think Salty was ever considered a great defensive catcher, and I think I heard he has that problem now where he can't throw the ball back to the pitcher or something like that?

I heard the same thing.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 12:18 AM
Mesaraco has gone 2b, 3b, HR tonite for Carolina. His OPS is at .923 in AA after being 1.000+ in A ball before his promotion. He just turned 22. He's throwing out near 50% of the attempted base stealers against him this year.

I remain real hesitant to deal him for a rental. He is a potential effective in-house solution to catcher at club controlled prices for the decade. Those don't come along too often. In fact, if you are the Reds, they have not come along much at all since Bench retired. Viable in-house catchers drafted and developed by the Reds since Bench? Oliver, LaRue, Hanigan? Am I missing anyone? Of those three, only LaRue was stand-out at any point in the minors, OPSing 1.046 in his AA season, but he did that as a 24-year-old, not two years younger like Mes is now doing.

Hanigan was actually a free agent who went undrafted, but he was certainly developed by our guys. I am fully against trading Mesoraco for anyone with less than 2 seasons on their current deal.

Sea Ray
07-09-2010, 12:23 AM
Hanigan was actually a free agent who went undrafted, but he was certainly developed by our guys. I am fully against trading Mesoraco for anyone with less than 2 seasons on their current deal.

I agree and it's not a knock on Alonzo that I'd be OK trading him. The truth is a 1B is a lot easier to replace than a stud Catcher or a LHP SP for that matter (like Wood).

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 12:23 AM
I'm 100% in agreement over not trading Mes. And, if the kid keeps up doing what he's done so far this year, he's a top 50 prospect. I don't care what the prospect gurus say.

oregonred
07-09-2010, 01:02 AM
Mesaraco has gone 2b, 3b, HR tonite for Carolina. His OPS is at .923 in AA after being 1.000+ in A ball before his promotion. He just turned 22. He's throwing out near 50% of the attempted base stealers against him this year.

I remain real hesitant to deal him for a rental. He is a potential effective in-house solution to catcher at club controlled prices for the decade. Those don't come along too often. In fact, if you are the Reds, they have not come along much at all since Bench retired. Viable in-house catchers drafted and developed by the Reds since Bench? Oliver, LaRue, Hanigan? Am I missing anyone? Of those three, only LaRue was stand-out at any point in the minors, OPSing 1.046 in his AA season, but he did that as a 24-year-old, not two years younger like Mes is now doing.

If we are going to toss names around for potential deals, we might as well consider what the names represent in terms of talent. Mes may be the real deal at a very difficult to fill position. Worth a mention.

No way do you trade this potential for a 2-month rental. Catcher is the toughest position to develop. The Reds provided the Mariners a solid ML catcher for a decade+ with nowhere near this offensive potential (Dan Wilson). I'd rather not repeat the trend.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:11 AM
With Alonso heating up, I like our chances better of including him and Francisco together with Klinker or Maloney. Who knows, perhaps Mez is our catcher and Grandal is our 1b/LF or visa versa down the road. Or they form a wicked platoon.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:13 AM
I heard the same thing.


Perhaps I was remembering Laird, nonetheless Salty has only 2 pb this year and that's what I looked at.

GoReds
07-09-2010, 08:04 AM
May be a moot point as the Yankees appear to have taken front-runner status...

What if the Reds traded Alonso and a PTBNL to the Mariners. If the Reds are able to re-sign Lee, then the M's could pick from a list that includes the likes of Wood, Meserasco, etc. However, if Lee walks, the M's pick from a secondary list such as Frazier, Valaika, etc.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Some points:


- Many are arguing Lee isn't worth two blue chip prospects since he's only a rental. I agree, but the issue is that I don't see anyone suggesting that the Reds trade their blue chippers. The Blue chippers are Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Chapman, Leake and some younger guys who are talented but too young to really know what the reds have like Yorman and Hamilton. Wood, Alonoso, Heisey, Francisco, Frazier, Maloney and even Stubbs may be among the best young guys on the reds and will be good to useful players IMO, but that doesn't automatically make them blue chippers. Organizational scarcity would have me shying away from dealing Mesoraco or Cozart, but they really aren't blue chippers either.

- Like many, I thought that the Reds window of opportunity would be in the 2011 to 2015 range and it still could be, but this year the Reds are probably getting the best that Rolen, Phillips, Hernandez and Rhodes have left in their careers while the Cards are flawed, Philly is not healthy and the rest of the NL is mediocre. The convergence of performance and opportunity may never be better to go for it.

-

With all due respect Mth just because you don't believe some of them aren't blue chippers doesn't make it true. Obviously everyone has their guys who they think is a blue chipper and like you I don't agree they all are but some just do. There may also be some disagreement on what a "blue chipper" is. I do believe Alonso and Mes can be blue chip players and to me that is not elite at the big league level perse' but of all star quality. Frazier is a guy whom I know we disagree on but I still think he holds pretty high value despite his poor season thus far.

Whatever the case Lee IMO to the Reds isn't worth 2 All-Star potential prospects. CC Sabathia for example (because there aren't many examples out there) was a bit different story as far as I'm concerned, he was 27 years old and with better pure stuff. And he's the only guy I know of that could have commanded more than 1 and LaPorta was that guy (whom Alonso actually might be better than) I don't recall how highly Jackson and Brantley were but I don't see a Mesoraco in that deal, maybe a Wood.

I also disagree with the notion that we'll never have a better opportunity. St. Louis is becoming barren beyond their major league club and we still have much room to grow. No one else really looks all that promising in the near future in the division either. I'd still go ahead and offer a competitive package and depending on the prospects I might give them what might seem to be a blockbuster package on the surface but not really (see the Griffey deal). But I wouldn't empty the farm for 2-3 months of Lee (or Haren for that matter) who is 31 with Boras as an agent and seeking a 6 year deal that we aren't likely to be able to afford and might regret in 2 or 3 years anyhow.

Find the right arm and yeah but not these guys.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 09:22 AM
Just what the Yankees need.. another All Star.. Sickens me.

Dan Wilson & Joe Oliver.. Reds have a history of dealing catchers with Seattle. I'd love to see Lee wearing a Reds uniform.

Alonso; who if I'm wrong was said by many to be drafted as trade bait. So I am petitioning Alonso, Mesoraco, & Klinker/Wood. Playoffs to me is more important then seeing a prospect either amount to the hype or flop trying. These players are blocked by big league talent.. Finding replacements is like finding a banana peel in a monkey cage. St. Louis does it year in and year out..

membengal
07-09-2010, 09:22 AM
Why in the world do you think Mesaraco is blocked?

Screwball
07-09-2010, 09:23 AM
Just what the Yankees need.. another All Star.. Sickens me.

Dan Wilson & Joe Oliver.. Reds have a history of dealing catchers with Seattle. I'd love to see Lee wearing a Reds uniform.

Alonso; who if I'm wrong was said by many to be drafted as trade bait. So I am petitioning Alonso, Mesoraco, & Klinker/Wood. Playoffs to me is more important then seeing a prospect either amount to the hype or flop trying. These players are blocked by big league talent.. Finding replacements is like finding a banana peel in a monkey cage. St. Louis does it year in and year out..

Except Mesoraco and Wood aren't really blocked.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 09:24 AM
May be a moot point as the Yankees appear to have taken front-runner status...

What if the Reds traded Alonso and a PTBNL to the Mariners. If the Reds are able to re-sign Lee, then the M's could pick from a list that includes the likes of Wood, Meserasco, etc. However, if Lee walks, the M's pick from a secondary list such as Frazier, Valaika, etc.

Alonso, Fluery, Francisco and Maloney/Sulbaran. And I wouldn't even try to re-sign him just offer arbitration, he'll be 32 years old in August.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 09:24 AM
Why in the world do you think Mesaraco is blocked?


Didn't we draft a Catcher this year?

membengal
07-09-2010, 09:26 AM
Didn't we draft a Catcher this year?

Yes. Who has not signed and never played a moment of pro ball. In what universe does that block Mesaraco who has risen to AA at the tender age of 22 with the skill set I listed a page back? Did you read that?

It's not like Grandal, if he signs, goes to AAA. He starts behind Mesaraco in the system. And the Reds find out if he can hit and play defense. Open questions, with all draft picks. Until you see them, they are potential only. And even more open when it comes to backstops.

Mesaraco seems to be realizing his potential. And, have you forgotten, he's a former #1 draft pick himself.

I am a bit confused with your point, frankly.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 09:30 AM
Yes. Who has not signed and never played a moment of pro ball. In what universe does that block Mesaraco who has risen to AA at the tender age of 22 with the skill set I listed a page back? Did you read that?

I'm not saying he's blocked.. Hanigans on the way back, Hernadez is banged up a bit but might be close to returning after the break. Miller is doing a fine job this year. I just think he's not labeled an uber prospect like the Twins and Yankee catchers..

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 09:32 AM
Yes. Who has not signed and never played a moment of pro ball. In what universe does that block Mesaraco who has risen to AA at the tender age of 22 with the skill set I listed a page back? Did you read that?

It's not like Grandal, if he signs, goes to AAA. He starts behind Mesaraco in the system. And the Reds find out if he can hit and play defense. Open questions, with all draft picks. Until you see them, they are potential only. And even more open when it comes to backstops.

Mesaraco seems to be realizing his potential. And, have you forgotten, he's a former #1 draft pick himself.

I am a bit confused with your point, frankly.

my point is I was asking a question.. Nothing more nothing less.

membengal
07-09-2010, 09:34 AM
Oh, I get it. Thanks.

I am not beholden to how prospects are "ranked" by experts, myself. I am interested in development and the stats that are put up as they develop. And I have open questions about how much reputation drives rankings.

I think you are vastly under-ranking the potential of Mesoraco to be an answer to this team at catcher, perhaps as soon as mid-way through next year. That has value. Hernandez is old and creaky, and Hanigan is a nice complementary player, but I don't see him as an anchor.

And I am loathe to toss away something as rare as Mesoraco's potential for a rental.

You want to include a C prospect from the Reds system to Seattle along with an Alonso/Francisco/Klinker package, suggest Fleury, hitting well in A ball, for instance.

membengal
07-09-2010, 09:40 AM
For points of comparison, here is Wilson Ramos' page with his current career minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ramos-001wil

Jesus Montero's page with his current career minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=monter001jes

Mesoraco's minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=mesora001dev

Montero's are the eye-opener, and he's doing it at age 20. If the Yankees let him loose for Lee, the Reds can't step to that. But NY is also blessed with not caring about money issues. They can apparently let 20-year-old catchers with plus bats potentially walk because they think they can just sign a player later.

That's not the Reds. They can't be that cavalier with such prospects when they work under a budget, in my view.

I also don't know how Montero is defensively. By all accounts, Mesoraco is improving rapidly, and throwing out a high % of baserunners this year.

Again, in the right deal, sure, let him or any Reds prospect go (and for me, I would include Chapman in the right deal). But not for a rental.

ETA: One of the tweets that floated through last night, Fay, I think, but maybe Sheldon, mentioned how high the Reds brass was on Mesoraco and that they view his issues in the first few years of his career as being tied to the thumb injuries he was playing through. I will have to defer to the Reds on that as they would certainly know better than me. All I know is the leap in hitting and defense he has made this year appears to be no joke.

NJReds
07-09-2010, 09:44 AM
I also don't know how Montero is defensively. By all accounts, Mesoraco is improving rapidly, and throwing out a high % of baserunners this year.


I don't follow the NY Yankees farm system, and I've never seen Montero play. But I've heard people who do follow the Yankees say that Montero's future position will not be catcher. His defense isn't great, but a future move may be more along the lines that his offensive output will be more valuable at another position.

membengal
07-09-2010, 09:45 AM
I don't follow the NY Yankees farm system, and I've never seen Montero play. But I've heard people who do follow the Yankees say that Montero's future position will not be catcher. His defense isn't great, but a future move may be more along the lines that his offensive output will be more valuable at another position.

Interesting. I am def blind on that. I don't know how that impacts his trade value, frankly. He sure looks like a legit bat to me, and if Seattle can land that from NY, that is hard to reasonably beat for rental, in my view. The Yankees sure don't have those concerns...

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 09:50 AM
I don't follow the NY Yankees farm system, and I've never seen Montero play. But I've heard people who do follow the Yankees say that Montero's future position will not be catcher. His defense isn't great, but a future move may be more along the lines that his offensive output will be more valuable at another position.

If that is so and he can't play 3rd then Alonso IMO has as much value if not more. Though the age edge certainly goes to Montero.

Screwball
07-09-2010, 10:04 AM
This situation with Lee reminds me an awful lot of the CC Sabathia trade a couple years ago in '08. Cleveland was out of it and looking to trade one of the best starting pitchers in the game in an attempt to recoup some prospects before his impending free agency. Hence, everyone and their brother knew CC was going to be a rental, much like Lee.

What did the Brewers have to give up to get him? Certainly not 3 of their top 7 prospects. There was Matt LaPorta, of course, who was the one blue chip prospect and centerpiece of the deal. Also going with him was Rob Bryson, a pitcher selected in the 31st round who had put up a pretty good ERA and K/BB numbers in rookie ball and low A. Thirdly, Milwaukee traded Zach Jackson, a starting pitcher whom they had acquired in '05 as part of the Overbay trade. He was a former 1st round pick that was Major League ready, having already had a cup of coffee. Lastly, Michael Brantley completed the trade a few months later. He was a good OBP, no power OF putting up acceptable numbers in AA.

So, having gone through all that, who would be the equivalents in the Reds organization? Well, I don't know the Milwaukee guys very well so perhaps someone more informed could correct me here, but as a (very) rough guess I'd submit Yonder Alonso (Matt LaPorta), Matt Maloney (Zach Jackson), Pedro Villareal? (Rob Bryson), and Sean Henry (Michael Brantley).

Like I said, these comps aren't exact matches, and the CC situation isn't identical to Lee's, but they are comparable and serve to illustrate a deeper point. To acquire a rental like Lee, who's very, very good but still a rental nevertheless, precedence has it that it won't take nearly as much as some are proposing. One very good player and some spare parts should be what's expected. Perhaps the Reds can add a little more to sweeten the deal, but I find the notion of trading Alonso, Wood, and Mesoraco for a half season rental to be absurd.

jojo
07-09-2010, 10:07 AM
For points of comparison, here is Wilson Ramos' page with his current career minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=ramos-001wil

Jesus Montero's page with his current career minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=monter001jes

Mesoraco's minor league stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=mesora001dev

Montero's are the eye-opener, and he's doing it at age 20. If the Yankees let him loose for Lee, the Reds can't step to that. But NY is also blessed with not caring about money issues. They can apparently let 20-year-old catchers with plus bats potentially walk because they think they can just sign a player later.

That's not the Reds. They can't be that cavalier with such prospects when they work under a budget, in my view.

I also don't know how Montero is defensively. By all accounts, Mesoraco is improving rapidly, and throwing out a high % of baserunners this year.

Again, in the right deal, sure, let him or any Reds prospect go (and for me, I would include Chapman in the right deal). But not for a rental.

ETA: One of the tweets that floated through last night, Fay, I think, but maybe Sheldon, mentioned how high the Reds brass was on Mesoraco and that they view his issues in the first few years of his career as being tied to the thumb injuries he was playing through. I will have to defer to the Reds on that as they would certainly know better than me. All I know is the leap in hitting and defense he has made this year appears to be no joke.

There are some serious questions about his (Montero) but at 20 you can dream up all kinds of fantasies about what he'll become.

It sounds like the Ms are at the stage where they've worked out something concrete that is a good bar and they've then turned to the other teams that they consider serious suitors and are probably giving them a chance to beat it by Xpm on day Y or they'll have to accept the Yanks offer.

membengal
07-09-2010, 10:21 AM
There are some serious questions about his (Montero) but at 20 you can dream up all kinds of fantasies about what he'll become.

If the M's can get Montero, more power to them. That would be a great return for Lee at the deadline. Particularly when the Yankees could just stand pat, likely still make the playoffs, and have Lee anyway during free agency.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 10:24 AM
This situation with Lee reminds me an awful lot of the CC Sabathia trade a couple years ago in '08. Cleveland was out of it and looking to trade one of the best starting pitchers in the game in an attempt to recoup some prospects before his impending free agency. Hence, everyone and their brother knew CC was going to be a rental, much like Lee.

What did the Brewers have to give up to get him? Certainly not 3 of their top 7 prospects. There was Matt LaPorta, of course, who was the one blue chip prospect and centerpiece of the deal. Also going with him was Rob Bryson, a pitcher selected in the 31st round who had put up a pretty good ERA and K/BB numbers in rookie ball and low A. Thirdly, Milwaukee traded Zach Jackson, a starting pitcher whom they had acquired in '05 as part of the Overbay trade. He was a former 1st round pick that was Major League ready, having already had a cup of coffee. Lastly, Michael Brantley completed the trade a few months later. He was a good OBP, no power OF putting up acceptable numbers in AA.

So, having gone through all that, who would be the equivalents in the Reds organization? Well, I don't know the Milwaukee guys very well so perhaps someone more informed could correct me here, but as a (very) rough guess I'd submit Yonder Alonso (Matt LaPorta), Matt Maloney (Zach Jackson), Pedro Villareal? (Rob Bryson), and Sean Henry (Michael Brantley).

Like I said, these comps aren't exact matches, and the CC situation isn't identical to Lee's, but they are comparable and serve to illustrate a deeper point. To acquire a rental like Lee, who's very, very good but still a rental nevertheless, precedence has it that it won't take nearly as much as some are proposing. One very good player and some spare parts should be what's expected. Perhaps the Reds can add a little more to sweeten the deal, but I find the notion of trading Alonso, Wood, and Mesoraco for a half season rental to be absurd.

Well stated though remember Lee will be 32 in august and CC was 27 when he was dealt and CC has better pure stuff. IMO a 27 year old legit ace compared to a 31 nearly 32 year old isn't even close in terms of prospects.

I'd probably go more with Wood than Maloney as a comparison to Jackson though just more comparable pedigrees. Though because of what I stated above what you tossed out there is reasonable. But since the M's are looking for catching you can probably take away Henry and give them Fleury and I'd say that it's more than fair. If they'd prefer a younger arm to Maloney we can talk and I may bend on that with a Sulbaran or the like just to get it done but no more.

Alonso, Maloney/Sulbaran, Fleury and filler.

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 10:26 AM
I wonder how much the possibility of signing CC long term figured in the thinking about the trade with the Indians, both for the Brewers and for the Indians in estimating the package. Here it seems to me we're dealing with what's strictly a rental. I wonder what kind of percentage figure the Brewers FO had in mind on the possibility of signing CC long term.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 10:29 AM
I wonder how much the possibility of signing CC long term figured in the thinking about the trade with the Indians, both for the Brewers and for the Indians in estimating the package. Here it seems to me we're dealing with what's strictly a rental. I wonder what kind of percentage figure the Brewers FO had in mind on the possibility of signing CC long term.

It had to be better than anyone would feel on Lee.

jojo
07-09-2010, 11:02 AM
can the Reds beat Montero, Adams and a third player?

REDREAD
07-09-2010, 11:03 AM
Maybe I am crazy, but I would MUCH rather have Mesoraco than Ramos and its not particularly close. One guy is hitting the cover off the ball. One guy is hitting like Willy Taveras while he was in Cincinnati.

But lets go back to Wood's value. Lets just assume you are right and he goes 4.50 ERA over 6 seasons and throws 800 innings (133.3 innings per season for 6 seasons). To replace that on the FA market, it would cost you a TON of cash. At least $5M a year if you are lucky.

It just seems to me that 6 years of Wood, plus your #2 or #3 prospect (which is where I would rate Mesoraco right now) is too much for Cliff Lee's next 19-25 starts.

But last year, Ramos was OPSing 835 in the minors. He had a fine part of the season, just as Morasco has done now. Neither is a sure thing.

It's not going to cost us anything to repace Wood.. we have Chapman projected ready for next year, and Volquez projected healthy. True, a team can never have enough pitching. It's also true that Wood could displace Bailey in the rotation and give us better performance. But if Wood is traded, the franchise can recover. Personally, I don't pass on a once in 20 year chance to go to the playoffs just for the sake of protecting a prospect who is probably a #3 starter at best.

Another thing that really swayed me in going for Lee is there's a huge risk next year that Rolen, Gomes, and some of the other players that are having great years this season are going to come back down to earth.
If Wood is the difference in us winning 82 or 84 games next year, I will gladly sacrifice him for the chance to go for it this year.

membengal
07-09-2010, 11:03 AM
can the Reds beat Montero, Adams and a third player?

Not unless they deal a Leake or a Chapman, I would not imagine, along with Heisey and another prospect.

I don't think they will do that.

If it were me, I would deal Chapman, but I know I am in the extreme minority on that position on this board and in the rest of life too...

REDREAD
07-09-2010, 11:08 AM
I always hear that and I just don't buy it for teams that build from within, like the Reds have. Teams that aren't a flash in the pan, everything broke just right, don't just fall off the face of the Earth. The Reds aren't going anywhere. The year didn't pick them. They put together a good organization full of good players. That is why they are here, not because 'the year picked them'.

Sure the year picked them. No one would've guessed that Rolen and Gomes would be this good this year. Credit goes to Walt for adding them (and his other moves putting Leake in the rotation, etc). Walt positioned the team so that if everything went well, the team would be competitive. However, teams like the Reds are not going to perennially contend. Injuries happen. Players regress. The prospect pipeline will go through disappointments even in the best farm systems.

Next year, a key player or two could be injured or ineffective. There's not enough money to cover every contingency unless you are the Yankees.
The year does pick you. The GM can position the team for success, but it's somewhat left up to fate.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:09 AM
can the Reds beat Montero, Adams and a third player?

Of course they can. The question is, do they want to?

Not sure David Adams makes much sense for Seattle. A 2B, with Ackley already at 2B in AA.

I'll be surprised if it's not the Yankees. Too much information leaking already, and I doubt they'd take kindly to an offer that's publicly known being shopped to other teams.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 11:12 AM
I have a friend who is getting into baseball this year more because of the Reds winning. He mentioned a week ago that the reason he doesn't like the league more is that the Yankees will trade for Lee soon and the season will be over.

I guess MLB makes enough money and the game is doing well enough that they just don't care. The Yankees getting Cliff Lee does seem like overkill once again.

jojo
07-09-2010, 11:12 AM
Of course they can. The question is, do they want to?

Not sure David Adams makes much sense for Seattle. A 2B, with Ackley already at 2B in AA.

I'll be surprised if it's not the Yankees. Too much information leaking already, and I doubt they'd take kindly to an offer that's publicly known being shopped to other teams.

Ackley is a great athlete and could find a home at several positions-he'd kind of be a guy without a position because he CAN play them.

But how would the Reds beat such an offer?

Tom Servo
07-09-2010, 11:16 AM
I'll ask you the same question: jojo as a Mariners fan, what could the Reds offer that in your mind would beat the Yankees offer?

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:18 AM
Ackley is a great athlete and could find a home at several positions-he'd kind of be a guy without a position because he CAN play them.

OF? With Gutierrez in CF and Suzuki in RF, do you stick him in LF? How about Saunders?


But how would the Reds beat such an offer?

With Alonso and a better supporting package. Of course, if Seattle is set on acquiring the hitter with the highest ceiling, Montero may be the best they feel they can do, period. Personally, I'm fine with Lee going elsewhere.

jojo
07-09-2010, 11:25 AM
I'll ask you the same question: jojo as a Mariners fan, what could the Reds offer that in your mind would beat the Yankees offer?

I guess I'd classify Montero as a A- prospect and Adams as a B- prospect and assume that the rumored third player would be a C+.

I'd also assume that the Reds wouldn't want to give up someone on their 25 man roster but I think they might have to.

So just looking at grades, Alonso, Frazier, Heisey/Wood would seem to be roughly equal calculus but I'm not sure the Ms would be as enthusiastic.

NJReds
07-09-2010, 11:29 AM
One thing to consider is that the Yankees might consider dealing Vasquez if they aquire Lee.

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 11:30 AM
I look forward to hearing the Yankees have signed him. I guess I'm so old-school at this point as to not care if we win if it depends not on what we have accomplished, or on the players who have been with us to this point, but on a guy who has no intention of staying with the team or commitment to it in any way. If we had just a mountain of money we could bring in Lee, Oswalt, and Haren and no doubt win, but would we have won at baseball or just at having money? Membengal, I am intrigued by your suggestion regarding Chapman; I could almost go for that as doing less damage to the overall progress of the franchise in a way than some of the other suggestions. Almost, but not quite.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:30 AM
So just looking at grades, Alonso, Frazier, Heisey/Wood would seem to be roughly equal calculus but I'm not sure the Ms would be as enthusiastic.

Please yourself. The future will determine how rosy the return is. But the Reds package you cite seems to fit the Mariners' needs -- which are many -- a lot better than the Yankees trio, especially if Wood is in there to step in for Lee.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 11:34 AM
Walts July 9th 2010 To Do List:

Answer Seattle's call on proposed offer from the Yankees.

Call the Castelluni's and get approval of Francisco/Alonso, Mesoraco, Klinker, and Dorn.

Have them pack their bags for either Seattle or Tacoma.

Alert the press that Cliff Lee is a Red

BRM
07-09-2010, 11:34 AM
So just looking at grades, Alonso, Frazier, Heisey/Wood would seem to be roughly equal calculus but I'm not sure the Ms would be as enthusiastic

How many 'Zoners would be okay with that package?

Dan
07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
How many 'Zoners would be okay with that package?

*raises hand*

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 11:36 AM
How many 'Zoners would be okay with that package?

I would.. But I might also be ok with adding more just to stick it to the Cards and Yankees

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 11:38 AM
I would not be OK with that package for a rental.

Benihana
07-09-2010, 11:39 AM
I would, but it's too late. Buster Olney reporting that the Yankees deal is "just about done."

Hopefully we can get Haren, Oswalt, Carmona, or maybe even Vasquez. :rolleyes:

chicoruiz
07-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Okay, I'm crazy, but I still say that if it looks like the Twins are about to get trumped by the Yankees they might take Arroyo as a consolation prize. So, Arroyo plus something for Ramos; then dangle a Ramos/Alonso/Maloney or Joseph package in front of the M's.

Just trying to think outside the box here..

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
I would, but it's too late. Buster Olney reporting that the Yankees deal is done.

Hopefully we can get Haren, Oswalt, Carmona, or maybe even Vasquez. :rolleyes:

1. Maybe Olney's right, but maybe not.

2. Oswalt's the most likely to be moved among the above pitchers, which means that it's unlikely an in-division team like the Reds get him.

3. As I said earlier, it's likely Lee or nothing for the Reds.

Benihana
07-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Okay, I'm crazy, but I still say that if it looks like the Twins are about to get trumped by the Yankees they might take Arroyo as a consolation prize. So, Arroyo plus something for Ramos; then dangle a Ramos/Alonso/Maloney or Joseph package in front of the Ms.

Just trying to think outside he box here..

And what happens if you miss the window with the M's? Then you're without Lee and Arroyo.

Benihana
07-09-2010, 11:43 AM
1. Maybe Olney's right, but maybe not.

2. Oswalt's the most likely to be moved among the above pitchers, which means that it's unlikely an in-division team like the Reds get him.

3. As I said earlier, it's likely Lee or nothing for the Reds.


An official with a team interested in Lee tells Ed Price of AOL FanHouse that the Mariners appear to be negotiating exclusively with the Yankees (Twitter link).

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:46 AM
I guess I just can't understand the M's reasoning here: is it that the Yankees will pay the rest of his salary? are the Yankees' prospects really any better than those of the Twins, Reds, or Rangers? are they doing Lee a personal favor by sending him to the team that he's going to sign with in the offseason anyway? What exactly are the M's getting out of negotiating exclusively with the Yankees?

savafan
07-09-2010, 11:48 AM
Haven't people learned yet that the Yankees can't develop prospects anymore?

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 11:49 AM
Haven't people learned yet that the Yankees can't develop prospects anymore?

That's not really true, but if Montero's the best the M's are going to get, it's a headscratcher.

savafan
07-09-2010, 11:51 AM
That's not really true, but if Montero's the best the M's are going to get, it's a headscratcher.

Okay, they can't develop the prospects that they're willing to part with.

Cyclone792
07-09-2010, 11:56 AM
If Lee does get dealt to the Yanks, I wonder how the logistics with his rotation spot works this weekend for New York. Does Lee start tonight for the Yanks against Seattle?

I know it's happened occasionally where position players are dealt from one team to another while those two teams are playing each other, and the player just moves to the other clubhouse in the stadium and plays against his old team that very night. But I wonder how many times a starting pitcher has done that and actually started against his old team the day/night of the trade.

Nonetheless, for the Reds, if this deal gets done, then they need to turn their focus back to the bullpen. I wish a shortstop upgrade could be had, but I don't see the Reds acquiring someone to move Cabrera no matter how poorly he hits.

Slyder
07-09-2010, 11:59 AM
You're basically giving up good prospects for a 2-3 month rental, because IMO there is no way Lee resigns here. Not impossible, but improbable IMO.

And Volquez is returning at some point after the AS break.

I again bring up Francisco Liriano. If Volquez gives us anything of value as a starter it will be gravy as he will be the exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. If you have an offer to get another starter you take it and let Volquez "prove" himself in the pen and then if needed he starts.

Hoosier Red
07-09-2010, 12:00 PM
Of course they can. The question is, do they want to?

Not sure David Adams makes much sense for Seattle. A 2B, with Ackley already at 2B in AA.

I'll be surprised if it's not the Yankees. Too much information leaking already, and I doubt they'd take kindly to an offer that's publicly known being shopped to other teams.

Not if they didn't really make the offer. They may even confirm it to the press in order to get other teams to give up better prospects.

The Yankees can sign any free agent they want. The one true threat they have is a team that can draft and develop their own players like the Twins and then sign the young players or get enough production from them before having to let them go. (Think Cleveland Indians in late 90's.) If the Yankees can scare the Twins or the Rangers additional talent to get a guy they have no interest in trading for, it's to their advantage.

Ghosts of 1990
07-09-2010, 12:09 PM
If we wanted Lee, this should have been done weeks ago before the Yankees had zoned in on him.

Why did we wait so long? Doesn't seem like the type of transaction that takes weeks to get done.

Its frustrating. We never make these moves because we're never in this position first off; but now that we are we hear all this stuff that never comes to fruition.

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 12:11 PM
If we wanted Lee, this should have been done weeks ago before the Yankees had zoned in on him.

Why did we wait so long? Doesn't seem like the type of transaction that takes weeks to get done.

Its frustrating. We never make these moves because we're never in this position first off; but now that we are we hear all this stuff that never comes to fruition.

Might mean the talk was a lot less serious than people--who are either really looking for a story or desperate to make a move--thought.

nemesis
07-09-2010, 12:14 PM
If it is true the Yankees are getting Lee, I am fine with that. At least he stays in the AL and away from the Mets and St. Louis. So now what about a smaller deal for Carmona if someone like Haren isn't available? He could be had for considerably less. They certainly don't need a Catcher. Cozart, Francisco, Bailey and Sappelt for Peralta at SS and 3B insurance this year (SS next year) and Carmona?

Allows the Tribe to move some people around to better positions going into next year.

Alonso
Donald
Francisco
Cabrera
LaPorta
Sizemore
Choo
Santana
Hafner

Tons of potential and on the cheap.

I'd also be willing to offer up package of Klinker and Ondrusek maybe Sulbaran for Perez. But I am pretty sure he is the most untouchable pitcher on their roster.

savafan
07-09-2010, 12:17 PM
A.J. Burnett
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia
Javier Vazquez
Cliff Lee
Mariano Rivera


It's going to be awful tough to beat that in the World Series.

Sea Ray
07-09-2010, 12:17 PM
If we wanted Lee, this should have been done weeks ago before the Yankees had zoned in on him.

Why did we wait so long? Doesn't seem like the type of transaction that takes weeks to get done.

Its frustrating. We never make these moves because we're never in this position first off; but now that we are we hear all this stuff that never comes to fruition.

It was reported that the Reds had talks while they were in Seattle last month so I wouldn't say that they waited

nemesis
07-09-2010, 12:27 PM
If we wanted Lee, this should have been done weeks ago before the Yankees had zoned in on him.

Why did we wait so long? Doesn't seem like the type of transaction that takes weeks to get done.

Maybe Walt felt the price was to high like many here on the RZ.

Walt knows the value of a great catcher that can play defense and shut down the run game... He had Matheny and then Molina. He was pretty spoiled. Throw in the fact the Mesaraco is the best offensive catcher in the system in 45 years, it is hard to give that up.

It wouldn't surprise me if he went to them and said listen, other than Mesaraco and Chapman you can have your pick of any 3 or 4 prospects from Louisville to Dayton. Seattle didn't see a package they liked and moved on.

osuceltic
07-09-2010, 12:30 PM
A.J. Burnett
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia
Javier Vazquez
Cliff Lee
Mariano Rivera


It's going to be awful tough to beat that in the World Series.

Hey, but at least we still have Devin Mesoraco! :rolleyes:

REDREAD
07-09-2010, 12:30 PM
Quote:
So just looking at grades, Alonso, Frazier, Heisey/Wood would seem to be roughly equal calculus but I'm not sure the Ms would be as enthusiastic

How many 'Zoners would be okay with that package?

Sign me up. It would be a bummer to have to give up Wood/Heisey, but that's not going to stand in the way of getting Lee for me.

REDREAD
07-09-2010, 12:32 PM
Okay, I'm crazy, but I still say that if it looks like the Twins are about to get trumped by the Yankees they might take Arroyo as a consolation prize. So, Arroyo plus something for Ramos; then dangle a Ramos/Alonso/Maloney or Joseph package in front of the M's.

Just trying to think outside the box here..


There's no way I trade Arroyo now.. Not even for the Twins entire farm system. I can not live through another firesale/white flag when the team is in a decent position. Actually, that trade would be one of the worst timings in Reds' history. You don't trade your arguably best pitcher when you are leading by 3 games.

Ghosts of 1990
07-09-2010, 12:34 PM
There's no way I trade Arroyo now.. Not even for the Twins entire farm system. I can not live through another firesale/white flag when the team is in a decent position. Actually, that trade would be one of the worst timings in Reds' history. You don't trade your arguably best pitcher when you are leading by 3 games.

I'd do it for Ramos. He's going to be special. We're talking our franchise catcher for the next 6-8 years IMO.

Then you have the two 1st rounders in the minor leagues as trading chips for the next few years..... For Arroyo it's a no brainer. Minnesota wouldn't do that unless Arroyo stays ON FIRE, in my opinion.

The Operator
07-09-2010, 12:34 PM
Yea, trading Arroyo right now would virtually guarantee a huge dropoff in attendance and the team would probably lose its mental edge and call it a season.

The Reds need to add to the rotation, not subtract from it.

blumj
07-09-2010, 12:37 PM
If Lee does get dealt to the Yanks, I wonder how the logistics with his rotation spot works this weekend for New York. Does Lee start tonight for the Yanks against Seattle?

I know it's happened occasionally where position players are dealt from one team to another while those two teams are playing each other, and the player just moves to the other clubhouse in the stadium and plays against his old team that very night. But I wonder how many times a starting pitcher has done that and actually started against his old team the day/night of the trade.

Nonetheless, for the Reds, if this deal gets done, then they need to turn their focus back to the bullpen. I wish a shortstop upgrade could be had, but I don't see the Reds acquiring someone to move Cabrera no matter how poorly he hits.

I think I read somewhere, probably one of the NY writers, said the Yanks had already agreed not to start Lee against the M's this weekend if the deal got done.

Ghosts of 1990
07-09-2010, 12:38 PM
If it is true the Yankees are getting Lee, I am fine with that. At least he stays in the AL and away from the Mets and St. Louis. So now what about a smaller deal for Carmona if someone like Haren isn't available? He could be had for considerably less. They certainly don't need a Catcher. Cozart, Francisco, Bailey and Sappelt for Peralta at SS and 3B insurance this year (SS next year) and Carmona?

Allows the Tribe to move some people around to better positions going into next year.

Alonso
Donald
Francisco
Cabrera
LaPorta
Sizemore
Choo
Santana
Hafner

Tons of potential and on the cheap.

I'd also be willing to offer up package of Klinker and Ondrusek maybe Sulbaran for Perez. But I am pretty sure he is the most untouchable pitcher on their roster.

I'm frustrated with Homer Bailey here; but I think he could end up a better pitcher then Carmona in the long run. I don't know that I'd wanna give up Bailey for Carmona even straight up.

REDREAD
07-09-2010, 12:38 PM
I'd do it for Ramos. He's going to be special. We're talking our franchise catcher for the next 6-8 years IMO.

Then you have the two 1st rounders in the minor leagues as trading chips for the next few years..... For Arroyo it's a no brainer. Minnesota wouldn't do that unless Arroyo stays ON FIRE, in my opinion.

Not worth it to me.. Making the playoffs this year is more important than any catching prospect (Ramos or Moresco).

I will draw a parallel to Adam Dunn. He was a great player while he was year, but the team struggled to break 500 while he was here. Thus, it was a pretty forgettable era.

Get a playoff appearance this year, and try to erase all the apathy that Lindner and Allen created in the fanbase over the years. Get the fanbase energized, sell more tickets, and then you'll have money to keep young guys like Bruce and Cueto around much longer.

flyer85
07-09-2010, 12:39 PM
a tweet from Buster

Buster_ESPN Executive involved in Cliff Lee talks: The Yankees-Mariners deal "is just about done." seems like the Yanks are playing defense.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 12:39 PM
a tweet from Buster
seems like the Yanks are playing defense.

Yeah they don't want Tampa Bay to get their hands on Lee.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 12:43 PM
This makes me sick. I usually don't complain about the Yankees but this is ridiculous.

Call Seattle back and offer Mesoraco along with Alonso. I'm tired of waiting for next year. This team badly needs a Cliff Lee.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 12:43 PM
Montero is an impressive prospect by the numbers. It's as though they're giving Homer Bailey circa 2007 to the M's. I guess THAT's a blue chip.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 12:44 PM
Another season about to get ruined by the Yankees.

Pathetic.

Tom Servo
07-09-2010, 12:47 PM
Defending World Series champions, 23 games over .500. Of course they need to add the best pitcher in baseball. Ridiculous.

yab1112
07-09-2010, 12:47 PM
a tweet from Buster
seems like the Yanks are playing defense.

Isn't that something? :barf:

jojo
07-09-2010, 12:48 PM
Please yourself.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

jojo
07-09-2010, 12:51 PM
I guess I just can't understand the M's reasoning here: is it that the Yankees will pay the rest of his salary? are the Yankees' prospects really any better than those of the Twins, Reds, or Rangers? are they doing Lee a personal favor by sending him to the team that he's going to sign with in the offseason anyway? What exactly are the M's getting out of negotiating exclusively with the Yankees?

If the offer by the Yanks is Montero, Adams, third player it's a really strong offer.

savafan
07-09-2010, 12:52 PM
Defending World Series champions, 23 games over .500. Of course they need to add the best pitcher in baseball. Ridiculous.

A strong commissioner would veto the deal in the best interests of baseball, except that it is in baseball's best interest to have the Yankees go deep into October. That's the fault of the system.

flyer85
07-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Yeah they don't want Tampa Bay to get their hands on Lee.or anyone they might meet in the playoffs

BRM
07-09-2010, 12:53 PM
If the offer by the Yanks is Montero, Adams, third player it's a really strong offer.

Joel Sherman is reporting it could be two additional players along with Montero and Adams.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 12:55 PM
I hope this deal blows up in the face of both teams. I hope Lee can't handle the pressure of New York and pitches like crap and Jesus Montero becomes a huge bust.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 12:55 PM
It's Montero, Adams, and possibly another prospect for Lee.

Robbery committed by the Crankees

Alonso/Francisco, Frazier, and Klinker should of worked

jojo
07-09-2010, 12:55 PM
I hope this deal blows up in the face of both teams. I hope Lee can't handle the pressure of New York and pitches like crap and Jesus Montero becomes a huge bust.

Why would you hate on Seattle?

flyer85
07-09-2010, 12:56 PM
IMO Montero is one of the best prospects in baseball even if he is not a C. He has struggled this year in AAA but he is only 20. He raked in AA at age 19 and is way ahead of the curve. The Ms need catching, a first basemen, OFs, etc. They need pretty much everything.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 12:56 PM
Why would you hate on Seattle?

Why not? :D

J/K

savafan
07-09-2010, 12:57 PM
I hope this deal blows up in the face of both teams. I hope Lee can't handle the pressure of New York and pitches like crap and Jesus Montero becomes a huge bust.

Lee's made 5 starts in new & old Yankee Stadium since '06. He's 5-0, 1.67, and averaged 7 2/3 IP/start.

Caveat Emperor
07-09-2010, 12:58 PM
Well -- on the plus side, at least he didn't go to the Cardinals or a team in the NL the Reds might find themselves fighting against for a Wild Card spot and/or playoff positioning as a division leader.

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 12:59 PM
I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

You want to go ahead and imagine what offers could be out there and "grade" those offers, go ahead. But it will not determine how good a return the Mariners get. Only the future performance of the players involved will determine that.

Personally, I think Montero is a nice high ceiling bat, potentially very high ceiling. Unless the unnamed players are better than I imagine they'll be, it's not all that different than what Cleveland got from Milwaukee for renting Sabathia -- a power bat as the lead guy and some middling supporting talent. As I expected, a single blue chipper only. If I were Seattle, I'd be fine with this because Montero has the potential to be a core middle-of-the-order star-quality bat.

Spitball
07-09-2010, 01:06 PM
LeBron James to the Heat and now two fifths of the 2008 Cleveland rotation on the Yankees...boo...and I don't even like Cleveland.

jojo
07-09-2010, 01:08 PM
You want to go ahead and imagine what offers could be out there and "grade" those offers, go ahead. But it will not determine how good a return the Mariners get. Only the future performance of the players involved will determine that.

To be fair, I was responding to a specific question. That said the future performance of the players really doesn't factor greatly into understanding and evaluating the deal.


Personally, I think Montero is a nice high ceiling bat, potentially very high ceiling. Unless the unnamed players are better than I imagine they'll be, it's not all that different than what Cleveland got from Milwaukee for renting Sabathia -- a power bat as the lead guy and some middling supporting talent. As I expected, a single blue chipper only. If I were Seattle, I'd be fine with this because Montero has the potential to be a core middle-of-the-order star-quality bat.

Adam's had a nice increase in power last season and is following it up by more of the same at a higher level. He's nice middling IMHO. But ya, Montero is a legit elite prospect and why the Ms probably wouldn't bite at my suggested offer by the Reds.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 01:08 PM
As reported on the other thread, two sources from two different teams have told C. Trent they're not out of the running for Lee yet. Hopefully the Reds are one of those teams.

BRM
07-09-2010, 01:09 PM
As reported on the other thread, two sources from two different teams have told C. Trent they're not out of the running for Lee yet. Hopefully the Reds are one of those teams.

How do you top the Yanks offer though? They probably want Montero more than Alonso.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
How do you top the Yanks offer though? They probably want Montero more than Alonso.

Alonso + Mesoraco tops the Yankees offer.

HokieRed
07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Another season about to get ruined by the Yankees.

Pathetic.

Nothing of importance is ruined by the fact somebody else has a larger bank account.

Tom Servo
07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
What if the Reds included Jim Coombs in the deal?

BRM
07-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Alonso + Mesoraco tops the Yankees offer.

That's a tough one to swallow. Mes seems to be coming into his own this year.

Raisor
07-09-2010, 01:13 PM
What if the Reds included Jim Coombs in the deal?

The Mariners would have to throw in Ichiro to make it even.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 01:13 PM
That's a tough one to swallow. Mes seems to be coming into his own this year.

And that's why this setup is so unfair. The Yankees will just buy the best Catching FA when Jorge retires. The Reds/Twins/DRays can't just give away their best talent.

This isn't a trade folks, it's just the Yankees buying another player.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 01:17 PM
Alonso + Mesoraco tops the Yankees offer.

Not from what I heard. Talked to two scouts about 20 minutes ago. One said that Montero has more value than Alonso/Mesoraco/Frazier.

Scouting report has Montero as a raw 80 hit tool and raw 80 power. Guys that have that can be counted on one hand.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 01:18 PM
Joel Sherman is reporting it could be two additional players along with Montero and Adams.

Well if it's that much, then yeah, it becomes harder for the Reds (or Twins/Rangers) to match it.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 01:20 PM
And that's why this setup is so unfair. The Yankees will just buy the best Catching FA when Jorge retires. The Reds/Twins/DRays can't just give away their best talent.

This isn't a trade folks, it's just the Yankees buying another player.

The Yankees have Austin Romine, who is pretty darn good himself. They also have an absolute stud that is 17 down in the GCL who could be the heir to Romine in a few years. But yeah, they can always go grab a FA if Romine doesn't make it. But Romine is a top 50 prospect in his own right, even a top 25 prospect according to Frankie Piliere.

jojo
07-09-2010, 01:21 PM
Not from what I heard. Talked to two scouts about 20 minutes ago. One said that Montero has more value than Alonso/Mesoraco/Frazier.

Scouting report has Montero as a raw 80 hit tool and raw 80 power. Guys that have that can be counted on one hand.

Montero is an elite prospect.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Montero is an elite prospect.

Without question. Of everyone still in the minor leagues, he is the one guy I would take above all else, even with his current struggles going on.

jojo
07-09-2010, 01:23 PM
Without question. Of everyone still in the minor leagues, he is the one guy I would take above all else, even with his current struggles going on.

He had a great June for what that's worth.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 01:25 PM
He better be an elite bat considering he's going to be a 1b/DH.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:35 PM
Unless the Yankees back off from the edge, this one's in the books. If Seattle doesn't take this deal, they're stupid.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:38 PM
Well, it was nice to dream. Cedric has this one pegged, it wasn't a trade, the Yankees just bought another player. Savafan listed the rotation, no, the stable, no, the gaggle of pitchers who might be an ACE anywhere else:

A.J. Burnett
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia
Javier Vazquez
Cliff Lee


Let that Titanic sail, I say!

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 01:42 PM
Without question. Of everyone still in the minor leagues, he is the one guy I would take above all else, even with his current struggles going on.

Really---well if true then it's over right? I mean how could someone actually come up with a package to beat the best elite prospect in baseball? And even if they could why would they for a rental. Seems like a slam dunk from here.

I hate that the Yankees are gonna get him but frankly I'm not surprised and although I wish the Reds would have got him I was bracing myself for Walt to give up more than he would be worth to us.

HeatherC1212
07-09-2010, 01:45 PM
And my friends who are Yankee fans wonder why I can't stand their team. So annoying. I wish someone would save Baltimore from having to compete in the AL East anymore. It's just ridiculous now. :rant:

BrooklynRedz
07-09-2010, 01:49 PM
Well, it was nice to dream. Cedric has this one pegged, it wasn't a trade, the Yankees just bought another player. Savafan listed the rotation, no, the stable, no, the gaggle of pitchers who might be an ACE anywhere else:

A.J. Burnett
Joba Chamberlain
Phil Hughes
Andy Pettitte
C.C. Sabathia
Javier Vazquez
Cliff Lee


Let that Titanic sail, I say!

The 2010 versions of A.J. Burnett and Joba Chamberlain would be aces for Pittsburgh or Arizona perhaps. Or maybe in the Australian Baseball League.

I(heart)Freel
07-09-2010, 01:59 PM
USA Today's Bob Nightengale has the gall on twitter to say:


This isn't about money. This is simply a byproduct of great scouting and development by the Yankees who have the depth to pull off deal

Whatever, national baseball writer who I used to like. This is everything about money. Because the Yanks know they can go buy the best catcher when they need to. So they can afford to ship off their top prospect(s) in this deal. The Reds simply can not.

Stinks, I say. Stinks.

But it was fun dreaming.

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 02:01 PM
CC Sabathia - Bronson Arroyo
Cliff Lee - Edinson Volquez
Andy Pettitte - Johnny Cueto
Phil Hughes - Mike Leake/Travis Wood
AJ Burnett - Aaron Harang/Matt Maloney

Yeah, that looks close.

And baseball execs wonder why the NFL has become America's game.

membengal
07-09-2010, 02:03 PM
And that's why this setup is so unfair. The Yankees will just buy the best Catching FA when Jorge retires. The Reds/Twins/DRays can't just give away their best talent.

This isn't a trade, it's just the Yankees buying another player.

This.

Caveat Emperor
07-09-2010, 02:03 PM
And baseball execs wonder why the NFL has become America's game.

NFL execs, as they ponder a work-stoppage, should probably be throwing some wondering baseball's way as well.

Don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about this. It's the Yankees -- this is what they do. Be happy that he didn't go to an NL team that might knock the Reds out of a playoff spot.

membengal
07-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Not bent out of shape for my part, CE. It is par for the course. Either you make your peace with it or you learn to love some other sport as much as you once loved baseball.

At the least, the Yankees don't need to mess with wondering how to replace a talent like Montero in their system, if need be, they just go buy a replacement on the market. That's a luxury that not many other teams can afford.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 02:06 PM
CC Sabathia - Bronson Arroyo
Cliff Lee - Edinson Volquez
Andy Pettitte - Johnny Cueto
Phil Hughes - Mike Leake/Travis Wood
AJ Burnett - Aaron Harang/Matt Maloney

Yeah, that looks close.

And baseball execs wonder why the NFL has become America's game.

Dusty could shred those matchups in a 7 game series. Go Reds!

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 02:09 PM
Not bent out of shape for my part, CE. It is par for the course. Either you make your peace with it or you learn to love some other sport as much as you once loved baseball.
At the least, the Yankees don't need to mess with wondering how to replace a talent like Montero in their system, if need be, they just go buy a replacement on the market. That's a luxury that not many other teams can afford.

This statement should keep MLB owners and execs up at night. The system is broken.

I'm not one that blames the Yankees however. They are working within the system. If anything, it is the Royals and Pirates of the league that do more harm. But it just get old, y'know? Really, really old.

savafan
07-09-2010, 02:12 PM
The other owners make money when the Yankees win as well. A Pittsburgh vs. Kansas City World Series wouldn't bring in near the revenue of even a New York vs. Boston ALCS, so that's a problem right there. The fans in these cities are the ones getting screwed, the teams are more or less happy to let the Yankees make money for them.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 02:19 PM
The other owners make money when the Yankees win as well. A Pittsburgh vs. Kansas City World Series wouldn't bring in near the revenue of even a New York vs. Boston ALCS, so that's a problem right there. The fans in these cities are the ones getting screwed, the teams are more or less happy to let the Yankees make money for them.

A big reason why I don't watch the playoffs unless the Reds are in them and I only watch the Reds series. Yeah been a long time.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 02:20 PM
Montero was the #4 ranked prospect in all of baaeball at the beginning of this season. And he's 20.

Now way any team tops that.

And this was about the Yankees ability to develop talent. If they only had money, and bought everyone player they needed, they never would have Montero to trade for Lee. That's why the Yankees develop players, to trade for stars like Lee. Their ability to buy other players make this easier to swallow, but this trade would never happen if the Yankees didn't also develop their own talent.

Amazing trade for the M's. They should be congratulated.

Mario-Rijo
07-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Montero was the #4 ranked prospect in all of baaeball at the beginning of this season. And he's 20.

Now way any team tops that.

And this was about the Yankees ability to develop talent. If they only had money, and bought everyone player they needed, they never would have Montero to trade for Lee. That's why the Yankees develop players, to trade for stars like Lee. Their ability to buy other players make this easier to swallow, but this trade would never happen if the Yankees didn't also develop their own talent.

Amazing trade for the M's. They should be congratulated.

Did the Yankees draft Montero?

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 02:23 PM
USA Today's Bob Nightengale has the gall on twitter to say:



Whatever, national baseball writer who I used to like. This is everything about money. Because the Yanks know they can go buy the best catcher when they need to. So they can afford to ship off their top prospect(s) in this deal. The Reds simply can not.

Stinks, I say. Stinks.

But it was fun dreaming.

It is about money, but not because of catching. Montero isn't the best catching prospect in their system, Austin Romine is because he is expected to stick at catcher in the long haul and has himself a pretty solid bat. Montero is available because he is most likely a first baseman and the Yankees had the money to get Mark Teixeira a few years ago. Frankie Piliere's Mid season top 25 had THREE Yankee catchers in the it. Not Midseason Yankee Top 25. Minor League Baseball's Top 25. Gary Sanchez is a long ways away at just 17, but they also had Romine (in AA right now) and Montero. Nightengale is both right and wrong with his statement.

BRM
07-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Did the Yankees draft Montero?

No. He was an international signee in 2006.

yab1112
07-09-2010, 02:25 PM
Don't know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape about this. It's the Yankees -- this is what they do.

When was the last time it directly impacted the Reds though?

Cedric
07-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Montero was the #4 ranked prospect in all of baaeball at the beginning of this season. And he's 20.

Now way any team tops that.

And this was about the Yankees ability to develop talent. If they only had money, and bought everyone player they needed, they never would have Montero to trade for Lee. That's why the Yankees develop players, to trade for stars like Lee. Their ability to buy other players make this easier to swallow, but this trade would never happen if the Yankees didn't also develop their own talent.

Amazing trade for the M's. They should be congratulated.

They signed Montero who might never be any good at the ML level. The point is the Yankees have the ability to take 100 times the risks of every other team.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Well, this is not what I was expecting. But to be honest, if the Yanks were offering Montero/Addams and another player, the Reds would literally have to clear out the farm system to match that. At some point, I think Walt has to say it's too much for a few months of 1 player. And I like Lee a lot and would be willing to give up a lot for him.

I think the odds of landing Oswalt are unlikely due to it being in the same division (although maybe with the Astros not likely to compete the next couple of years). I think Haren won't be traded or the moon would be expected to get him and I am not a fan of Carmona as he is signed for too long.

I agree with whoever else said at least Lee isn't going to the Cards. I also agree with whoever said the Reds should focus on the bullpen. They need a legit shutdown arm for the 8th and that can be had for far less.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 02:27 PM
They signed Montero who might never be any good at the ML level. The point is the Yankees have the ability to take 100 times the risks of every other team.

Montero was the top International Prospect in the world at the time. He got something like $2M to sign. Sure, he may not have made it, but it wasn't just some gamble they took because they were the Yankees. It was a gamble they took because the kid was the best player on the market and everyone knew it.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 02:29 PM
The Yankees just traded their version of Yonder Alonso (blocked prospect by a legit star who isn't likely to play a position that he can 'play' but isn't all that good at and everyone thinks he should play 1st base), but their version is younger and better. It has very little to do with money and a lot to do with how their system and MLB team is set up.

bucksfan2
07-09-2010, 02:32 PM
Its a shame. And I don't necessarily blame the Yankees for the way they operate. Heck I would love it if Cast went out and spent every dime he made to build a championship caliber club. The issue I have is with MLB continuing to allow this charade to happen. The competitive imbalance has continued to grow under Selig's watch.

Unless there is a major injury its game set match for the Yankees.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 02:33 PM
I disagree. The Yankees get in a bidding war they get who they want. They would have probably given away much more than even Montero/Davis if it came down to it.

They have no risk in trading ANY player in their system. That makes the whole setup unfair to 90% of most other teams.

I'm not complaining because it's unfair, it just is what it is.

savafan
07-09-2010, 02:33 PM
The competitive imbalance has continued to grow under Selig's watch.



Yeah, but we can let that slide, because now the All-Star Game has meaning.

osuceltic
07-09-2010, 02:34 PM
This statement should keep MLB owners and execs up at night. The system is broken.

I'm not one that blames the Yankees however. They are working within the system. If anything, it is the Royals and Pirates of the league that do more harm. But it just get old, y'know? Really, really old.

MLB loves -- I repeat, LOVES -- the current system. They have somewhat leveled the playing field for almost all of the teams in baseball. The only two serious outliers are the Yankees and Red Sox. And MLB doesn't want the Yankees and Red Sox to go through up and down cycles like the rest of the teams in the sport. This way they get their cake and can eat it too. They get the Yanks and Sox in the postseason more or less every year, and they get the rest of the teams cycling through good and bad stretches while acting as AAAA minor league teams for the Sox and Yanks.

Why would MLB ever want to change that?

Cedric
07-09-2010, 02:36 PM
Its a shame. And I don't necessarily blame the Yankees for the way they operate. Heck I would love it if Cast went out and spent every dime he made to build a championship caliber club. The issue I have is with MLB continuing to allow this charade to happen. The competitive imbalance has continued to grow under Selig's watch.

Unless there is a major injury its game set match for the Yankees.

Like it is every year. Posnaski on CNNSI wrote a great article earlier this year about how the Yankees are easily the most dominant team in sports. If it wasn't for the playoffs being mostly lottery/luck the Yankees would probably win 8/10 titles every decade.

It's only going to get worse with the better ability to forecast stats. It's really kind of sad but I almost want the Yankees to win like 6 titles in a row. Something drastic has to happen before the system is changed. Maybe that wouldn't even be enough.

westofyou
07-09-2010, 02:39 PM
but I almost want the Yankees to win like 6 titles in a row.



You mean like 49-53, 60-64 or the late 90's?

That won't change anything except make more Yankee fans

Cedric
07-09-2010, 02:41 PM
You mean like 49-53, 60-64 or the late 90's?

That won't change anything except make more Yankee fans

Possibly. I do think we are in a new era for sports though. People have more and more available entertainment outlets and maybe attendance would finally go down.

I'm only guessing. Maybe perception alone would make Bud make a crazy change.

savafan
07-09-2010, 02:43 PM
You mean like 49-53, 60-64 or the late 90's?

That won't change anything except make more Yankee fans

I don't think we can compare dynasties before the reserve clause and dynasties that came after. ;)

westofyou
07-09-2010, 02:52 PM
I don't think we can compare dynasties before the reserve clause and dynasties that came after. ;)

Sure you can, when you look at them outside of the 60's and 70's they all generally fall in population heavy areas and thus have a larger revenue stream, from the White Stockings to McGraw's Giants to the Yankees to the Dodgers. Smaller markets get their by exploiting market weaknesses (IE farm systems, signing black players)

And BTW you mean during the RC and after the RC

VR
07-09-2010, 02:55 PM
did the Reds ever file a lawsuit for MLB voiding the Vida Blue deal? Perhaps someone knows if there were other deals voided since the 70's due to competetive inbalance.

savafan
07-09-2010, 02:57 PM
And BTW you mean during the RC and after the RC

Same thing :p:

reds44
07-09-2010, 02:57 PM
Am I the only one not that upset by this? Yeah, I would have loved Lee as we all would have, but at the same time this team is in first place without him. If you're going to line the Yankees and Reds up side by side, it's not going to look good for the Reds no matter who has Lee.

I'm glad this happend on July 9th as opposed to July 31st. It gives Walt time to put together a backup plan on execute it. I have faith Walt will figure it out.

Ghosts of 1990
07-09-2010, 03:00 PM
Unless there is a major injury its game set match for the Yankees.

AH, but that's why they play the game my friend.

So many things can happen. These men are not exact machines (although the Yankees organization do a good job at making it close)

Anything uncertain can and will happen, and has happened before.

While the Yankees are a favorite to win it all.... anything can happen. That's the fun of watching it unfold.

Same thing w/ the Heat who ironically are trying this same method of buying a title.... we're gambling on uncertainties here. Even the best horse loses sometime on a muddy track. I love it.

savafan
07-09-2010, 03:02 PM
did the Reds ever file a lawsuit for MLB voiding the Vida Blue deal? Perhaps someone knows if there were other deals voided since the 70's due to competetive inbalance.

Not due to competitive imbalance, but Gene Orza nixed ARod restructuring his contract to join the Boston Red Sox.

jojo
07-09-2010, 03:02 PM
The three names that might be in the deal are Montero, Adams, and McAllister.

Sickels rates them A,C+, B- but that's before Adams continued his increase in power this year at a higher level.

If true, I could see why Jocketty wouldn't want to top the offer.

It would be a better than expected return if one was to predict before the Ms became serious about making Lee available.

That said, while I understand the narrative that the Yanks are just buying Lee by throwing prospects at the Ms, this really doesn't hurt them seriously from a player development standpoint.

The Yanks are developing players too. Maybe game over really is appropriate now.

I(heart)Freel
07-09-2010, 03:09 PM
Yonder for a shortstop in the off-season then. Almost certainly.

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 03:09 PM
MLB loves -- I repeat, LOVES -- the current system. They have somewhat leveled the playing field for almost all of the teams in baseball. The only two serious outliers are the Yankees and Red Sox. And MLB doesn't want the Yankees and Red Sox to go through up and down cycles like the rest of the teams in the sport. This way they get their cake and can eat it too. They get the Yanks and Sox in the postseason more or less every year, and they get the rest of the teams cycling through good and bad stretches while acting as AAAA minor league teams for the Sox and Yanks.

Why would MLB ever want to change that?

Because they are losing fans?

reds44
07-09-2010, 03:10 PM
Yonder for a shortstop in the off-season then. Almost certainly.
I think SS should be the #1 priority right NOW, but sadly I don't think the Reds will acquire with me because of OC's vereraness.

Hoosier Red
07-09-2010, 03:12 PM
Like it is every year. Posnaski on CNNSI wrote a great article earlier this year about how the Yankees are easily the most dominant team in sports. If it wasn't for the playoffs being mostly lottery/luck the Yankees would probably win 8/10 titles every decade.

It's only going to get worse with the better ability to forecast stats. It's really kind of sad but I almost want the Yankees to win like 6 titles in a row. Something drastic has to happen before the system is changed. Maybe that wouldn't even be enough.

But see that's the point. If you're in the AL East, you probably have a beef, but otherwise you have as good of a chance at winning a World Championship as any other team because the playoffs turn out to be a crapshoot.

I don't buy this competitive balance garbage when after you factor in the percentage of teams making the playoffs in the first place, baseball spreads the wealth around as well as any of the other four major leagues.

westofyou
07-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Because they are losing fans?

Are they?

Overall attendance is doing well, on pace for 37 million fans all around, 600 K off last years numbers at this pace.

RFS62
07-09-2010, 03:15 PM
I understand it's always been this way and that it always will be this way. Maybe it will change when all media revenues are run through the internet deal, if that really does come to pass.

It's no surprise.

The game we love is really not a level playing field. Nothing new, I get it.

It's basically a business, and the owners appear to believe that they'll make more money this way.

It still really pisses me off. It's a great big bowlful of wrong.

Raisor
07-09-2010, 03:17 PM
So what do Boston and Tampa do next?

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 03:17 PM
Yankees offering Montero and McAllister along with someone that not only has a pulse, but is performing well. Game. Set. Match.

westofyou
07-09-2010, 03:18 PM
I understand it's always been this way and that it always will be this way. Maybe it will change when all media revenues are run through the internet deal, if that really does come to pass.

It's no surprise.

The game we love is really not a level playing field. Nothing new, I get it.

It still really pisses me off. It's a great big bowlful of wrong.

They offered more talent to get the guy, that's what the deal is about right?

Can't fault them for that.

Now if the debate is they have slimmer margin of error than there's the argument

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 03:18 PM
So what do Boston and Tampa do next?

Fight for the wild card and hope they can win the ALCS.

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 03:18 PM
Are they?

Overall attendance is doing well, on pace for 37 million fans all around, 600 K off last years numbers at this pace.

Without looking up numbers, I would say yes. While other sports/entertainment outlets are growing, if baseball is treading water then that is basically losing fans. Stagnation is a dangerous thing.

It seems like many of my friends/co-workers talk about the NFL and college football/basketball much more than baseball.

These types of situations only alienate fringe fans of teams other than the Yankees (or Red Sox).
It cannot be good for MLB's long term health.

bucksfan2
07-09-2010, 03:20 PM
Without looking up numbers, I would say yes. While other sports/entertainment outlets are growing, if baseball is treading water then that is basically losing fans. Stagnation is a dangerous thing.

It seems like many of my friends/co-workers talk about the NFL and college football/basketball much more than baseball.

These types of situations only alienate fringe fans of teams other than the Yankees (or Red Sox).
It cannot be good for MLB's long term health.

I absolutely agree with you.

westofyou
07-09-2010, 03:21 PM
Without looking up numbers, I would say yes. While other sports/entertainment outlets are growing, if baseball is treading water then that is basically losing fans. Stagnation is a dangerous thing.

It seems like many of my friends/co-workers talk about the NFL and college football/basketball much more than baseball.

These types of situations only alienate fringe fans of teams other than the Yankees (or Red Sox).
It cannot be good for MLB's long term health.

The last decade 2000-2009


72,702,420
72,567,108
67,944,389
67,630,052
72,968,953
74,385,295
75,959,167
79,447,312
78,584,286
73,401,938

Hoosier Red
07-09-2010, 03:23 PM
Because they are losing fans?

They are? Despite what the media paints, Baseball's actually been gaining revenues faster than the NFL over the past few years. A lot of that is due to international marketing but still.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/10/25/commentary/sportsbiz/index.htm

If they're losing fans, they're not losing the ones who have money.

Although I suppose you could argue they are losing attendance down in '08,'09 and again it appears in '10. But really, given the choice, leagues have always taken the money.

http://www.corporatetickettrends.com/Trends/mlb-attendance-drops-for-second-straight-season.html

Plus, I don't think you could make a realistic argument that fans are now upset about payroll disparities whereas in the early 2000's when attendance was growing exponentially, that people were happy about payroll disparity.

BrooklynRedz
07-09-2010, 03:26 PM
Without looking up numbers, I would say yes. While other sports/entertainment outlets are growing, if baseball is treading water then that is basically losing fans. Stagnation is a dangerous thing.

It seems like many of my friends/co-workers talk about the NFL and college football/basketball much more than baseball.

These types of situations only alienate fringe fans of teams other than the Yankees (or Red Sox).
It cannot be good for MLB's long term health.

Treading water? I'd suggest using anecdotal evidence and single-season attendance patterns are poor metrics for judging baseball is losing fans.

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 03:32 PM
Treading water? I'd suggest using anecdotal evidence and single-season attendance patterns are poor metrics for judging baseball is losing fans.

So your argument is that baseball is as popular as ever in America?

RFS62
07-09-2010, 03:33 PM
They offered more talent to get the guy, that's what the deal is about right?

Can't fault them for that.

Now if the debate is they have slimmer margin of error than there's the argument



Margin of error, yeah. But their portfolio is stacked. And they have ready cash like few others in any sport.

They laugh at risk that we can't even consider. They make a big mistake, it's barely a speedbump. For us it can be a sink hole.

Everything's relative.

I get it. It's really the big picture that gets to me. It's just one more move in a long history of the man putting us down and keeping us down. :cool:

westofyou
07-09-2010, 03:46 PM
So your argument is that baseball is as popular as ever in America?

Nah, Football has been the most popular sport in america since about 1966 (according to the book I'm reading "The Game")

You don't have to be the most popular though to still make tons of cash and have fans all over the place.

I(heart)Freel
07-09-2010, 03:47 PM
Teams With Money develop cheap prospects who may or may not reach their potential for the purpose of trading them for expensive talent who are reaching their potential, to augment the team of expensive free agents they bought.

Teams Without Money develop their own prospects in the hopes that they will contend when their prospects all reach their potential around the same time but before they all get expensive and have to be shipped to Teams With Money.

Guess which group contends more often? How can anyone not see why the system is wonky.

BrooklynRedz
07-09-2010, 03:54 PM
So your argument is that baseball is as popular as ever in America?

I don't think I said that. I simply suggested that if you are truly interested in finding an answer to that question, there is more to consider (merchandise sales, tv viewership, online audience share to name a few) than anecdotal evidence you provided (your friends' water-cooler conversational preferences regarding other sports).

Hoosier Red
07-09-2010, 04:03 PM
Teams With Money develop cheap prospects who may or may not reach their potential for the purpose of trading them for expensive talent who are reaching their potential, to augment the team of expensive free agents they bought.

Teams Without Money develop their own prospects in the hopes that they will contend when their prospects all reach their potential around the same time but before they all get expensive and have to be shipped to Teams With Money.

Guess which group contends more often? How can anyone not see why the system is wonky.

I don't think anyone dismisses the fact that it's unfair, but it's really always been unfair, and yet Baseball is still very popular. It's no less unfair than when the Yankees sucked. The Yankees just know what they're doing now.

People talk about parity in the NFL, but really it's more perception than reality. Isn't it odd that teams like the Jets, Giants, Patriots, Cowboys and Redskins ALWAYS seem to have room for free agents?

The difference is that it's easier to develop "prospects" for cheap when there's no guaranteed contracts, the seed time is shorter(no minor leagues) and so the advantage to getting a free agent is much smaller. So teams like the Colts, Steelers, and Saints are able to get back on the horse quicker.

KoryMac5
07-09-2010, 04:10 PM
Yankees may look to unload a pitcher now with Lee about to join them. Burnett or Vazquez anyone?

Eric_the_Red
07-09-2010, 04:13 PM
Yankees may look to unload a pitcher now with Lee about to join them. Burnett or Vazquez anyone?

No thanks. I'd rather take my chances with what we have than either of them.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 04:30 PM
Are they?

Overall attendance is doing well, on pace for 37 million fans all around, 600 K off last years numbers at this pace.

I've made this argument before, but if Baseball continues on this path, it will lose fans and become a second class sport.

I don't have the exact stats anymore, in the past 10 years, teams from big markets and payrolls above $90M had about a 60% chance of making the playoffs every year, while small and mid market teams with payrolls below had around a 25% chance of making the playoffs. And there about 3 times as many small and mid market teams as big market ones.

The fans in these small to mid markets will not take this forever. This has to change or these small to mid market franchises will lose their fan base and wilt away.

This happened in the past, when the NY teams dominated for decades. MLB recognized the problem and made changes, first with the bonus baby rule which didn't do much, and the the draft. If structural changes are not made to the system in the ten years, MLB will be in big trouble.

Sea Ray
07-09-2010, 04:30 PM
This is why there should be a salary cap in baseball. No way a $200mill payroll team should be able to add a $10mill/yr guy. A salary cap would preclude such a trade

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 04:36 PM
The Yanks are developing players too. Maybe game over really is appropriate now.

Yes, but by developing players, they can sign huge FAs to trade those chips and take on more salary. It's still a capitalistic system, no matter how you cut it. If the Yankees payroll was $100M, it might be a different story.

reds44
07-09-2010, 04:52 PM
Back to Lee, apparently the Yankees/M's trade fell thru.

Go get em Walt!

westofyou
07-09-2010, 04:52 PM
I've made this argument before, but if Baseball continues on this path, it will lose fans and become a second class sport.

I don't have the exact stats anymore, in the past 10 years, teams from big markets and payrolls above $90M had about a 60% chance of making the playoffs every year, while small and mid market teams with payrolls below had around a 25% chance of making the playoffs. And there about 3 times as many small and mid market teams as big market ones.

The fans in these small to mid markets will not take this forever. This has to change or these small to mid market franchises will lose their fan base and wilt away.

This happened in the past, when the NY teams dominated for decades. MLB recognized the problem and made changes, first with the bonus baby rule which didn't do much, and the the draft. If structural changes are not made to the system in the ten years, MLB will be in big trouble.
Second tier to which sports?

Football already is more popular, Hockey will never be, basketball either.

What else can draw 70 million plus in its season?

KronoRed
07-09-2010, 04:53 PM
If structural changes are not made to the system in the ten years, MLB will be in big trouble.

All of the owners are making money so absolutely nothing will change, some of them may say "We want to win" but at the end of the day they are business men whose first priority is making sure profit is made.

Honestly I've come to think the big boys should be off in their own league, maybe a 8/22 divorce.

kbrake
07-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Accoriding to Sherman Yankees are out and M's going in another direction. Another team has topped the Yankees offer.

RedLegSuperStar
07-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Accoriding to Sherman Yankees are out and M's going in another direction. Another team has topped the Yankees offer.

Does Walt read Redszone?

I have my fingers, my fiancé's fingers, and my daughters fingers crossed

bucksfan2
07-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Second tier to which sports?

Football already is more popular, Hockey will never be, basketball either.

What else can draw 70 million plus in its season?

Baseball has a huge advantage in that is played during the summer. The middle of its season competes does not compete with any other major sports. I know many people who don't like baseball but really enjoy going to baseball games. You can go to a game for rather cheap (especially if you get free tickets) and they are usually played in nice weather.

That said while baseball may appear healthy on the front it is losing a generation of young fans to other, more exciting sports. Baseball will always draw better than the NBA and the NHL but more young kids are playing basketball during the summers. More of your better athletes are choosing to play football over baseball. More younger kids are choosing to play soccer during the spring and summer over baseball. My nephew's live up in Canton, OH and none of the three of them play baseball. None of their friends play baseball. They think it is boring. They enjoy going to the game when they come into town, but they don't play the game.

Baseball is losing its best young athletes to football, basketball, and soccer. At the rate its going they will continue to lose more and more players to those sports.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Someone topped a Montero? Sounds like the Rangers may have said ok to Justin Smoak....

RedsManRick
07-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Someone topped a Montero? Sounds like the Rangers may have said ok to Justin Smoak....

That was my thought too.

Hoosier Red
07-09-2010, 05:04 PM
I've made this argument before, but if Baseball continues on this path, it will lose fans and become a second class sport.

I don't have the exact stats anymore, in the past 10 years, teams from big markets and payrolls above $90M had about a 60% chance of making the playoffs every year, while small and mid market teams with payrolls below had around a 25% chance of making the playoffs. And there about 3 times as many small and mid market teams as big market ones.

The fans in these small to mid markets will not take this forever. This has to change or these small to mid market franchises will lose their fan base and wilt away.

This happened in the past, when the NY teams dominated for decades. MLB recognized the problem and made changes, first with the bonus baby rule which didn't do much, and the the draft. If structural changes are not made to the system in the ten years, MLB will be in big trouble.]

They've taken it for 110 years or so. Why should they change now when they're making more money than ever. I'm actually willing to guess that the league has more parity in terms of teams making the playoffs and teams winning the championship now than at any time in history.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Sounds like hype to get the Yankees to throw more into the mix. It's not like they won't go back and offer more.

bucksfan2
07-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Someone topped a Montero? Sounds like the Rangers may have said ok to Justin Smoak....

If your the Angles, Reds, Rays, Yankees, Red Sox, Card's, Dodgers, Giants, Padres, or any other contending team are you going to pony up cash or allow the bankrupt Rangers to add salary in order to obtain Lee? I just don't see that happening.

kbrake
07-09-2010, 05:07 PM
Any chance the Yankees were just making sure the bidding got high enough the Rays were out for sure?

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 05:08 PM
If your the Angles, Reds, Rays, Yankees, Red Sox, Card's, Dodgers, Giants, Padres, or any other contending team are you going to pony up cash or allow the bankrupt Rangers to add salary in order to obtain Lee? I just don't see that happening.

Maybe the Mariners eat the money for a package of Smoak, Martin Perez and a third player?

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Second tier to which sports?

Football already is more popular, Hockey will never be, basketball either.

What else can draw 70 million plus in its season?

My point is if this dominance of a few teams keeps up, they won't be drawing half that in the next decade. Why follow a team if you know that they can only compete once a decade due to luck?

kbrake
07-09-2010, 05:10 PM
It is the Rangers according to Sherman.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 05:10 PM
Joel Sherman is hearing the Rangers are going hard after Lee. With their financial situation, how can they take on that much salary?

_Sir_Charles_
07-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Joel Sherman is hearing the Rangers are going hard after Lee. With their financial situation, how can they take on that much salary?

they won't...they'll give up more talent and the m's will eat the money.

and if that happens it opens up the market BIG TIME for Oswalt...who prefered the Rangers as his next team.

Cedric
07-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Rangers make sense. I thought maybe the DRays offered Jennings.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 05:18 PM
The Rangers aren't the only team according to Jon Heyman...

#rangers 1 of a few teams jumping in with big snag in yankees/lee trade talk

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

MikeS21
07-09-2010, 05:19 PM
Perhaps Lee is willing to discuss a LTC with Texas? Can't see the Rangers giving up Smoak for just a half season rental.

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:19 PM
The Rangers aren't the only team according to Jon Heyman...

#rangers 1 of a few teams jumping in with big snag in yankees/lee trade talk

http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

Here's hoping the Reds are one of them. I think Lee is the best fit for this team of all the pitchers rumored to be available.

backbencher
07-09-2010, 05:21 PM
I'm all for the Reds going all in, but I'm not sure that I want to "top" the Yankees' offer.

Now, if the Yankees' offer was a bluff all along . . . .

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:21 PM
If the Rangers give up Smoak for a two month rental of Lee that franchise is in worse shape management wise than I thought.

Maybe we could offer them Alonso for Hamilton or Nix for Cruz? Idiots. Lol

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 05:22 PM
Here's hoping the Reds are one of them. I think Lee is the best fit for this team of all the pitchers rumored to be available.

Here is to hoping the Reds aren't. To top the Yankees offer we would have to offer our 5 top prospects outside of Chapman. That is Wood, Mesoraco, Alonso, Frazier and Francisco.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 05:22 PM
For the Reds to top Montero, Adams and McAllister, they would have to offer better than Alonso, Meseraco, and Wood.

I know I would be very upset if they did.

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
Here is to hoping the Reds aren't. To top the Yankees offer we would have to offer our 5 top prospects outside of Chapman. That is Wood, Mesoraco, Alonso, Frazier and Francisco.

Yeah, because how many championships have we won the last 20 years by hanging onto our prospects? I don't care about guys who haven't proven anything at the major league level yet, I want a championship.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 05:24 PM
From Ed Price of AOL Fanhouse:

An official of uninvolved team said that #Rangers now willing to put Justin Smoak in a deal for Cliff Lee. And don't count out #Reds.

http://twitter.com/ed_price

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 05:26 PM
Yeah, because how many championships have we won the last 20 years by hanging onto our prospects? I don't care about guys who haven't proven anything at the major league level yet, I want a championship.

It isn't about hanging onto the prospects, its about paying WAYYYYYY to much for 2-3 months of a player. And where would the Reds be if they didn't hang onto prospects like Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Drew Stubbs, Johnny Cueto? Oh, nowhere near contention.

TheNext44
07-09-2010, 05:29 PM
The key is not whether to tradie prospects or to not trade prospects. It's knowing which ones to trade and for what.

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:29 PM
It isn't about hanging onto the prospects, its about paying WAYYYYYY to much for 2-3 months of a player. And where would the Reds be if they didn't hang onto prospects like Joey Votto, Jay Bruce, Drew Stubbs, Johnny Cueto? Oh, nowhere near contention.

They weren't IN contention when those guys were prospects at a time when they needed to be buyers in the market, different scenario. This team has a chance to win and be special. So you trade 5 guys who haven't appeared in a major league game for a former Cy Young winner who's having a great year, and the guy may leave after the season, or he may stick around and try to win another championship with this group of players, but if he doesn't, you get 2 draft picks, so you're still getting 2 more guys who haven't appeared in the majors.

The future is now as far as I'm concerned, win now, bring in the fans, develop Reds fever in Cincinnati.

_Sir_Charles_
07-09-2010, 05:30 PM
Someone...who knows who...said Smoak is indeed being offered now. On mlb trade rumors


An official of uninvolved team said that #Rangers now willing to put Justin Smoak in a deal for Cliff Lee. And don't count out #Reds.

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:31 PM
And don't count out #Reds.

http://twitter.com/ed_price

So it would have to be...

Alonso
Mesoraco
Wood
Francisco
Heisey

to top what they Rangers are offering.

That or Bruce, Alonso, Mesoraco.

Either package and I would revolt. Great season or not you just sold out the next couple years of prospects to get Lee with no guarantees, except that you for sure sold out the future.

dougdirt
07-09-2010, 05:32 PM
They weren't IN contention when those guys were prospects at a time when they needed to be buyers in the market, different scenario. This team has a chance to win and be special. So you trade 5 guys who haven't appeared in a major league game for a former Cy Young winner who's having a great year, and the guy may leave after the season, or he may stick around and try to win another championship with this group of players, but if he doesn't, you get 2 draft picks, so you're still getting 2 more guys who haven't appeared in the majors.

The future is now as far as I'm concerned, win now, bring in the fans, develop Reds fever in Cincinnati.

Travis Wood has appeared in 2 games. And no, Lee isn't sticking around after this year. Never going to happen, so don't think about it.

And the Reds WERE in contention in 2006. What if at the end of May the Reds traded Bruce, Votto and Cueto to acquire two rental pitchers? Think people would be showing up at Reds games today? I sure don't.

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 05:32 PM
From Ken Rosenthal:

#Reds have spoken "extensively" to M's about Lee over last 48 hrs, source tells FOXSports.com's Jon Paul Morosi. #Rangers also in. #MLB

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal

Cedric
07-09-2010, 05:32 PM
So it would have to be...

Alonso
Mesoraco
Wood
Francisco
Heisey

to top what they Rangers are offering.

That or Bruce, Alonso, Mesoraco.

Either package and I would revolt. Great season or not you just sold out the next couple years of prospects to get Lee with no guarantees, except that you for sure sold out the future.
Jay Bruce isn't going anywhere. That I promise you.

reds44
07-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Ken_Rosenthal #Reds have spoken "extensively" to M's about Lee over last 48 hrs, source tells FOXSports.com's Jon Paul Morosi. #Rangers also in. #MLB

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:33 PM
This deal will be done before he make his start tonight, one way or the other.

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:34 PM
Either package and I would revolt. Great season or not you just sold out the next couple years of prospects to get Lee with no guarantees, except that you for sure sold out the future.

So you're thinking none of the lower level minor league players in the Reds system will ever develop into anything special?

westofyou
07-09-2010, 05:34 PM
Baseball is losing its best young athletes to football, basketball, and soccer. At the rate its going they will continue to lose more and more players to those sports.

Heard the same thing 35 years ago and yet we are still clicking along, but everything has an end so we can count on it happening one day.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 05:34 PM
This deal will be done before he make his start tonight, one way or the other.

Why do you say that?

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:35 PM
And no, Lee isn't sticking around after this year. Never going to happen, so don't think about it.



No one thought Ken Griffey Jr. or Aroldis Chapman would ever come here either. Truth is, we don't know anything for certain.

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:35 PM
Why do you say that?

Way to much activity and buzz. Mariners want him gone before he gets hit with a freak liner. Reds or Rangers want him before the Yankees offer up Hughes and Montero.

_Sir_Charles_
07-09-2010, 05:36 PM
Okay, I'm just turning off my browser now. This twitter stuff updating every 5 minutes or so is just eating my day. Good grief.

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:37 PM
So you're thinking none of the lower level minor league players in the Reds system will ever develop into anything special?

I think there are alot of great, talented playes in the lower minors, but that is a long way to go. 2, 3 ,4 years on most. If Mesaraco goes, Mark Fleury is the next best catching prospect in your system and he is in Dayton.

Matt700wlw
07-09-2010, 05:38 PM
It must be nice to be wanted :)

lollipopcurve
07-09-2010, 05:39 PM
new media runaround -- these are essentially the same rumors we've had, now on spin cycle

CarolinaRedleg
07-09-2010, 05:42 PM
It must be nice to be wanted :)

Also nice to be a buyer this time of year instead of waiting on football season to start.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2010, 05:42 PM
I still think the actual deal will be a lot smaller than these constantly-racheted-up deals being reported now.

RedsManRick
07-09-2010, 05:42 PM
However this ends up, the Mariners have clearly done a good job of maximizing their return.

The Operator
07-09-2010, 05:42 PM
Something important to remember guys - Walt isn't exactly known to overpay in trades. Yes, he did give up Dan Haren in the Mark Mulder deal but Mulder DID help them reach the playoffs and Walt also turned around and got Adam Wainright, a better pitcher than Haren, in the JD Drew trade.

I trust Walt. Which is more than I can say about ANY Reds GM I've watched since, well, ever.

If he makes a trade for Lee, I'll trust his judgement.

BrooklynRedz
07-09-2010, 05:43 PM
I still think the actual deal will be a lot smaller than these constantly-racheted-up deals being reported now.

Agreed.

nate
07-09-2010, 05:43 PM
However this ends up, the Mariners have clearly done a good job of maximizing their return.

Word.

Hopefully, if the Reds get Lee, Walt minimized what he sent them.

RichRed
07-09-2010, 05:44 PM
For a change, it's exciting to be a Reds fan, if nothing else.

You might say I'm all a-Twitter.

savafan
07-09-2010, 05:45 PM
I think there are alot of great, talented playes in the lower minors, but that is a long way to go. 2, 3 ,4 years on most. If Mesaraco goes, Mark Fleury is the next best catching prospect in your system and he is in Dayton.

I'll take a championship this year, competitive next year and one or two lean years to win now. It sure beats waiting 20 years.