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fearofpopvol1
07-08-2010, 03:15 AM
Simply put, he needs more playing time. If that means giving Stubbs a day off, Bruce a day off or Gomes a few days off, he should absolutely be getting more starts.

Yes, the sample size is small, but he's already been about 1 WAR. He's had 5 HRs in 75 PAs. He plays amazing defense (the catch tonight in RF was incredible). He was practically the MVP of the game with that catch and his home run (or runner up next to Phillips).

I'd love to make him the everyday LF. Can you imagine an outfield of Bruce, Stubbs and Heisey? They'd run down every ball hit out there.

I'm just saying, Heisey deserves more playing time and I hope if the Reds do trade him here at the deadline, they don't sell him short. He's not an elite talent, but he has value and I think Dusty doesn't utilize his talent enough.

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 03:20 AM
Heisey should be starting over Gomes every day of the week. I don't mind him getting a spot start in CF/RF once a week, but he is flat out a better player than Gomes is.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2010, 03:40 AM
I think Heisey should start getting some starts in left field. I like Jonny Gomes, but other than a great month of May, he's been below average this season. I would start giving Heisey some starts in LF against RHP and let Gomes start vs LHP. This move would give the Reds one of the best defensive outfields in baseball, if not the best...

reds44
07-08-2010, 05:57 AM
Right now, Gomes literally does nothing better on the baseball field as Heisey. I have no problem with Gomes and I'm glad he's on the team, but Heisey needs to be playing.

GAC
07-08-2010, 06:34 AM
Heisey may/may not be the future in LF. But Gomes has been very instrumental in this team's success this season. Some seem to be overlooking that.

.280 BA .333 OB% .473 SLG% .807 OPS

56 RBIs. That's 3rd on the team behind Votto (59) and Rolen (57). Over the course of the season that projects out to 145 hits, 110 RBIs, 20 Hrs. And while Gomes is stronger vs RHers, he still gives better consistency from both sides, where Heisey's numbers so far vs lefties ain't too hot. Agree it's a small window, but some are using that same small window to say he should be getting more playing time in LF and Gomes less.

A season is comprised of 162 games (6 months), and not "cherry picking" a player's performance over one month and then saying he ain't making it.

Keep using Heisey off the bench just as they are. He's very valuable. Use him all around the OF to give guys a rest, and even as a defensive replacement.

He definitely should be getting the nod of Nix.

oneupper
07-08-2010, 08:52 AM
Baker needs to mix Heisey in a bit more. Gomes, Stubbs and even Bruce can use some time off a bit more often and Heisey fills in very nicely.
But as GAC says, lets not get overly excited. Heisey has also looked lost at the plate at times. I still think he's going to be a good MLB player, either with the Reds or someone else.

TRF
07-08-2010, 09:58 AM
Once a week, start Heisey in LF, then CF, then RF against a tough LH pitcher. That'd give him 3 starts a week.

Not really all that hard to do, and Baker could manage the three starters by saying I want to keep you guys fresh. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

Chip R
07-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Heisey may/may not be the future in LF. But Gomes has been very instrumental in this team's success this season. Some seem to be overlooking that.


Yes, but what has he done for us lately? ;)

bucksfan2
07-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Here is my curious case of Chris Heisey.

.217/.294/.370 OPS .664

That is his line as a starter. I don't know why he has had great success coming off the bench but when given a chance to start he hasn't produced. That line is Taveras-esque as a starter.

BRM
07-08-2010, 10:15 AM
Once a week, start Heisey in LF, then CF, then RF against a tough LH pitcher. That'd give him 3 starts a week.

Not really all that hard to do, and Baker could manage the three starters by saying I want to keep you guys fresh. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

I like it.

traderumor
07-08-2010, 10:23 AM
I think Heisey is a better 4th OFer option than Gomes due to his stronger set of all around tools. I question whether flipping the two would be counterproductive. Even though Heisey might perform well, Gomes might fall off the cliff coming off the bench and starting once or twice a week. A start for me is if Dusty would start bringing in Heisey as his late inning LFer instead of Nix.

He is the 2010 Jeffrey Hammonds.

traderumor
07-08-2010, 10:24 AM
Here is my curious case of Chris Heisey.

.217/.294/.370 OPS .664

That is his line as a starter. I don't know why he has had great success coming off the bench but when given a chance to start he hasn't produced. That line is Taveras-esque as a starter.Both are small sample sizes, bench and starter. I think his overall numbers are the only fair gauge.

medford
07-08-2010, 10:29 AM
Can Gomes play 1b? Seems like a position he needs to learn, 'cause it would be nice vs a tough lefty, when votto might need a day off anyways, to put Heisey in LF and gomes @ 1b.

Either way, I'm all for getting Heisey more playing time.

BRM
07-08-2010, 10:29 AM
I think Heisey is a better 4th OFer option than Gomes due to his stronger set of all around tools. I question whether flipping the two would be counterproductive. Even though Heisey might perform well, Gomes might fall off the cliff coming off the bench and starting once or twice a week. A start for me is if Dusty would start bringing in Heisey as his late inning LFer instead of Nix.

He is the 2010 Jeffrey Hammonds.

One could argue Gomes is already falling off the cliff. His numbers over the last 5-6 weeks aren't too good.

traderumor
07-08-2010, 10:32 AM
One could argue Gomes is already falling off the cliff. His numbers over the last 5-6 weeks aren't too good.Nah, he's a slugger. Last time he went through one of these he went on a binge shortly thereafter. I'm not saying he will, but sluggers are like binge eaters.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 10:36 AM
Heisey may/may not be the future in LF. But Gomes has been very instrumental in this team's success this season. Some seem to be overlooking that.

.280 BA .333 OB% .473 SLG% .807 OPS

56 RBIs. That's 3rd on the team behind Votto (59) and Rolen (57). Over the course of the season that projects out to 145 hits, 110 RBIs, 20 Hrs. And while Gomes is stronger vs RHers, he still gives better consistency from both sides, where Heisey's numbers so far vs lefties ain't too hot. Agree it's a small window, but some are using that same small window to say he should be getting more playing time in LF and Gomes less.

A season is comprised of 162 games (6 months), and not "cherry picking" a player's performance over one month and then saying he ain't making it.

Keep using Heisey off the bench just as they are. He's very valuable. Use him all around the OF to give guys a rest, and even as a defensive replacement.

He definitely should be getting the nod of Nix.

This. The "flavor of the week" over blown lovefest that happens here is somewhat amusing. I like Heisey too, but Gomes has been producing quite well. I don't think he needs anything more than a day or two off to clear his head and work in the cage just like Baker's done for Bruce, Stubbs and others.

And yes, Heisey needs some more playing time....as does Janish. Nix and Cairo should be the last guys off the bench, not these 2.

TRF
07-08-2010, 10:38 AM
This. The "flavor of the week" over blown lovefest that happens here is somewhat amusing. I like Heisey too, but Gomes has been producing quite well. I don't think he needs anything more than a day or two off to clear his head and work in the cage just like Baker's done for Bruce, Stubbs and others.

No, Gomes produced in May.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 10:46 AM
No, Gomes produced in May.

He OVERPRODUCED in May. His numbers in June are below his averages. But far from horrible. He still knocked in 17 runs, only 5 fewer than his ridiculous May. He needs a day or two off. He got several games off during May, NONE in June and NONE so far in July. I'm not talking about missing a start and then coming in later, a REAL day off.

nate
07-08-2010, 11:16 AM
RBI Talk

Gomes does lead the team with batting in 21.9% of baserunners in 297 PA. Votto is second (17.8%) and Rolen (17.5%.)

Last year, he batted in 15.0% of baserunners in 314 PAs.

In 2008, he batted in 12.2% of baserunners with 177 PAs.

2007, 395 PAs and batted in 12.5%.

Gomes' increase in RBI is directly related to hitting behind excellent on base men and a seemingly improved approach at the plate. I think it's likely that any .281 hitter would have a similar number of RBI. Depending on said .281 hitter's age and maternal genes, the mohawk could also be duplicated.

Hesiey Talk

Heisey should play more.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 11:19 AM
the mohawk could also be duplicated.

Bite your tongue. :O)

nate
07-08-2010, 11:31 AM
Bite your tongue. :O)

Well _I_ couldn't do it!

:cool:

TRF
07-08-2010, 11:33 AM
He OVERPRODUCED in May. His numbers in June are below his averages. But far from horrible. He still knocked in 17 runs, only 5 fewer than his ridiculous May. He needs a day or two off. He got several games off during May, NONE in June and NONE so far in July. I'm not talking about missing a start and then coming in later, a REAL day off.

Gomes in June: .244 .304 .400 .704

That actually is horrible. For the month of June he was the 22nd best LF in the NL in OPS

Gomes in July: .269 .321 .423 .744

not as horrible. pretty bad for a LF though. So far for the month of July he is the 14th best LF in the NL in OPS.

May was lights out: .364 .420 .636 1.056 3rd in OPS for LF

April: ouch. .217 .254 .367 .620 21st in the NL in OPS for LF.

Heisey out performed him in May, June and July. Yes, Heisey had a better OPS in May than Gomes.

Add in defense and since Heisey has been with the Reds, it isn't particularly close. He should get starts at every outfield position every week.

flyer85
07-08-2010, 11:43 AM
IMO Heisey needs more ABs and I'll leave it at that

bucksfan2
07-08-2010, 11:47 AM
IMO Heisey needs more ABs and I'll leave it at that

But he has gotten starts and has gotten at bats and he hasn't produced when put in the lineup. Most of Heisey's damage has come in a PH or late inning replacement capacity. He needs to produced when given a start, and so far this season he has yet to do that.

I am not saying that Heisey doesn't factor in the near future, but as of right now I think the Reds are using Heisey pretty well.

Hoosier Red
07-08-2010, 12:02 PM
Gomes in June: .244 .304 .400 .704

That actually is horrible. For the month of June he was the 22nd best LF in the NL in OPS

Gomes in July: .269 .321 .423 .744

not as horrible. pretty bad for a LF though. So far for the month of July he is the 14th best LF in the NL in OPS.

May was lights out: .364 .420 .636 1.056 3rd in OPS for LF

April: ouch. .217 .254 .367 .620 21st in the NL in OPS for LF.

Heisey out performed him in May, June and July. Yes, Heisey had a better OPS in May than Gomes.

Add in defense and since Heisey has been with the Reds, it isn't particularly close. He should get starts at every outfield position every week.

I assume you meant he was the 22nd LF in OPS in MLB in May? Or were you throwing everyone's numbers sample size or no?

Homer Bailey
07-08-2010, 12:14 PM
As Heisey appears to be hot and Gomes appears to be not, I can support getting Heisey more time in LF than he is currently getting. However, this reeks of "Flavor of the Week" RedZone talk that has convinced us that guys like Adam Rosales, Chris Denorfia, (etc). were all everyday players. The sample size we are dealing with here is still very very small. A lot of the guys making the case for Heisey on this board are the same guys that preach SSS in other cases.

The problem lies in the fact that both Gomes and Heisey's value is tied mostly to their ability to hit LHP. Neither is a world beater against RHP, which is why I liked that both Heisey and Gomes started last night against the lefty. That's a lineup vs LHP that I can get behind.

TRF
07-08-2010, 12:21 PM
I assume you meant he was the 22nd LF in OPS in MLB in May? Or were you throwing everyone's numbers sample size or no?

no. All my numbers are for LF in the respective months in the NL. Gomes was 3rd in OPS in May for LF. Heisey was second. Heisey had about 1/3 the AB's that Gomes had, so sure, sample does matter, but Heisey's sample is getting larger everyday and he's still producing. Gomes has had one good stretch this year, about 3 weeks in May. Thats it.

nate
07-08-2010, 01:14 PM
As Heisey appears to be hot and Gomes appears to be not, I can support getting Heisey more time in LF than he is currently getting. However, this reeks of "Flavor of the Week" RedZone talk

I've been saying Heisey should be playing for much longer than a week.

Or month.


that has convinced us that guys like Adam Rosales, Chris Denorfia, (etc). were all everyday players.

I've been saying Heisey should be playing for much longer than a week and I never thought Rosales was an everyday player. I thought Deno warranted a longer chance but that didn't happen.


The sample size we are dealing with here is still very very small. A lot of the guys making the case for Heisey on this board are the same guys that preach SSS in other cases.

Prove it.


The problem lies in the fact that both Gomes and Heisey's value is tied mostly to their ability to hit LHP.

Not really. Heisey has value with the glove. Gomes...neg.

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 01:21 PM
Lets not forget, even the Reds had Heisey at one point in the offseason, as their starting left fielder. Do I think Heisey could OPS .850 on the season? No, I don't. I do think he could fall in the .775-.800 range though and that, coupled with his defense makes him a much better option than Gomes.

HokieRed
07-08-2010, 01:57 PM
Just for the sake of the history, Adam Rosales is doing a heck of a lot better imitation of an everyday player with his current .737 OPS at 2b than Chris Denorfia ever did.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2010, 02:04 PM
Just for the sake of the history, Adam Rosales is doing a heck of a lot better imitation of an everyday player with his current .737 OPS at 2b than Chris Denorfia ever did.

Rosales is a decent guy to have on the bench, IMO. Maybe he'll go in a slump or something but as of right now, Rosales is hitting .271/.326/.411 - .737 OPS. His OPS+ is 100, which means he has been a league average hitter this season. Now factor in that he's got a +4.0 UZR at second base (+13.2 UZR/150). He's been a solid player for the A's this season. I'd like to have him on the Reds bench.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 02:12 PM
Let's not forget some of the intangibles too. Gomes' aggressiveness & hustle are BOTH contagious. You also don't really want to tinker too much with a club that's WINNING and LEADING THEIR DIVISION.

I like Chris and I think he'll amount to pretty close to what Doug just mentioned. But this club is gelling and that's not something that can be analyzed on a spreadsheet. Sometimes you just play well together as a team.

Homer Bailey
07-08-2010, 02:14 PM
I've been saying Heisey should be playing for much longer than a week.

Or month.

Yes, yes you have.



I've been saying Heisey should be playing for much longer than a week and I never thought Rosales was an everyday player. I thought Deno warranted a longer chance but that didn't happen.

Do you think Heisey is an everyday player?



Prove it.

I'm just not going to take the time to look up old posts. If Heisey had a .600 OPS right now, would people be laboring for him to start? Doubt it. I think the hot 75 PA's have given some on this board (not necessarily you) some false hope that Heisey is a plus bat. I would argue his track record says otherwise.



Not really. Heisey has value with the glove. Gomes...neg.

True. Like I said, if Gomes continues to hit the way he has over the last month or so, I have no problem giving Heisey a full audition for the LF role. However, I think a platoon would be unfair to Heisey, because he hits lefties a lot better than he hits righties.

I also think Gomes will get hot again soon. Maybe not as hot as May, but I could easily see him rebounding with a .900+ month.

membengal
07-08-2010, 02:17 PM
I think Heisey is an everyday player.

I don't think that time is now.

I also don't understand the pushback against the idea that he can and should be getting three starts a week and giving regular rest to each of the three starting outfielders.

What's wrong with keeping them fresh and getting Heisey a few more at-bats?

HokieRed
07-08-2010, 02:20 PM
Rosales is a decent guy to have on the bench, IMO. Maybe he'll go in a slump or something but as of right now, Rosales is hitting .271/.326/.411 - .737 OPS. His OPS+ is 100, which means he has been a league average hitter this season. Now factor in that he's got a +4.0 UZR at second base (+13.2 UZR/150). He's been a solid player for the A's this season. I'd like to have him on the Reds bench.

So would I. This is the last bad consequence of the stinking Taveras trade; that we had to move Rosales to move him. It's probably best for Rosales, though, as he's getting a chance he'd unlikely have gotten in Cinti. My point was just that Rosales is a whole lot better player than Denorfia and it's a mistake to treat them as if they're the same thing.

Roy Tucker
07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
I think Heisey is an everyday player.

I don't think that time is now.

I also don't understand the pushback against the idea that he can and should be getting three starts a week and giving regular rest to each of the three starting outfielders.

What's wrong with keeping them fresh and getting Heisey a few more at-bats?

That's my take as well. Rotating Heisey through the OF slots is a good idea.

I hate to make drastic changes when the club is doing very well. Give him some more ABs. If he does well, the better player will win out.

Cedric
07-08-2010, 03:03 PM
That's my take as well. Rotating Heisey through the OF slots is a good idea.

I hate to make drastic changes when the club is doing very well. Give him some more ABs. If he does well, the better player will win out.

Spot on. It's just not logical or realistic to expect a players manager like Dusty to suddenly drop Gomes.

It's just not going to happen.

dougdirt
07-08-2010, 03:54 PM
Spot on. It's just not logical or realistic to expect a players manager like Dusty to suddenly drop Gomes.

It's just not going to happen.
Just because it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't.

Cedric
07-08-2010, 03:56 PM
Just because it won't, doesn't mean it shouldn't.

Why are we even talking about Heisey? Isn't he a Cub and we have Marmol anyway?

:)

Homer Bailey
07-08-2010, 04:30 PM
Ugh. Nix is starting tonight in left. He'd be my last option for left.

He'll probably go 3 for 4 though.

nate
07-08-2010, 05:11 PM
Do you think Heisey is an everyday player?

I think I want to see more.


I'm just not going to take the time to look up old posts. If Heisey had a .600 OPS right now, would people be laboring for him to start?

Why would I guess what "people" think? I know what _I_ think and am confident and comfortable enough to state as much. I don't have to construct a strawman of what "Redszone thinks" and knock it down to make my point.


Doubt it. I think the hot 75 PA's have given some on this board (not necessarily you) some false hope that Heisey is a plus bat. I would argue his track record says otherwise.


I think "Redszone thinks" is a poor way to make a convincing or discussion-worthy point.

"Redszone" doesn't think anything. From what I can tell, the widely varied opinions here cover pretty much every side of every imaginable issue.


True. Like I said, if Gomes continues to hit the way he has over the last month or so, I have no problem giving Heisey a full audition for the LF role. However, I think a platoon would be unfair to Heisey, because he hits lefties a lot better than he hits righties.

I also think Gomes will get hot again soon. Maybe not as hot as May, but I could easily see him rebounding with a .900+ month.

I could see Heisey providing more value than Gomes over the course of a season.

TRF
07-08-2010, 05:16 PM
Heisey and Janish should both be rotating starters at three positions. Heisey in the OF, Janish at SS, 3B and occasionally 2B, just to give BP a breather.

GAC
07-08-2010, 05:26 PM
Once a week, start Heisey in LF, then CF, then RF against a tough LH pitcher.

They kid is batting .194 vs lefties with a .286 OB%, .730 OPS.

Vs RHers.... .407 BA .500 OB% .778 SLG% 1.278 OPS

Granted that's only 63 total ABs, but what I've seen from him so far vs lefties, other then the 3 Hrs, he looks somewhat lost right now. I certainly wouldn't want to throw him up against TOUGH LHer right now.


Heisey out performed him in May, June and July. Yes, Heisey had a better OPS in May than Gomes.

I respect ya buddy, but don't you think that is an awfully small sample size comparison to say that Heisey out performed Gomes?

Heisey had a total of 27 ABs in May, 26 in June, and 10 so far in July.

Gomes had almost that many ABs in one month. Johnny's had 60 ABs in April, 88 in May, 90 in June, and 26 so far in July. That's 264 ABs total compared to 63. I just don't think that is a fair comparison at all.

_Sir_Charles_
07-08-2010, 05:31 PM
Heisey and Janish should both be rotating starters at three positions. Heisey in the OF, Janish at SS, 3B and occasionally 2B, just to give BP a breather.

This I'm all for 100%. I just don't see it happening.

TRF
07-08-2010, 05:41 PM
I respect ya buddy, but don't you think that is an awfully small sample size comparison to say that Heisey out performed Gomes?

Heisey had a total of 27 ABs in May, 26 in June, and 10 so far in July.

Gomes had almost that many ABs in one month. Johnny's had 60 ABs in April, 88 in May, 90 in June, and 26 so far in July. That's 264 ABs total compared to 63. I just don't think that is a fair comparison at all.

It's not a fair comparison, but a lot of that is going around. :) BUT as far as outperforming him, he did so on both sides of the ball. Defensively, there is no argument here. none.

The real question is, is this the real Chris Heisey? I happen to think it is, and most scouts agree.

Orenda
07-08-2010, 05:43 PM
So would I. My point was just that Rosales is a whole lot better player than Denorfia and it's a mistake to treat them as if they're the same thing.

In Deno's defense he did have that knee injury that set him back.

GAC
07-08-2010, 06:19 PM
It's not a fair comparison, but a lot of that is going around. :) BUT as far as outperforming him, he did so on both sides of the ball. Defensively, there is no argument here. none.

You're right, there is no argument defensively. But offensively that's another story. Heisey's a young hitter, unknown by ML pitchers, and he's capitalized on that in a few instances (PH Hrs). But there is no way he has out performed Gomes simply due to the small sample size, and when ones does a breakdown and even greater examination of the numbers (other then simply OPS).

He simply hasn't had enough ABs to be making such a comparison IMO.

TRF
07-08-2010, 06:35 PM
You're right, there is no argument defensively. But offensively that's another story. Heisey's a young hitter, unknown by ML pitchers, and he's capitalized on that in a few instances (PH Hrs). But there is no way he has out performed Gomes simply due to the small sample size, and when ones does a breakdown and even greater examination of the numbers (other then simply OPS).

He simply hasn't had enough ABs to be making such a comparison IMO.

Try this one then. If Jay Bruce were knocking on the door to the Cincinnati Reds and he was being blocked by Jonny Gomes, how mad would you be?

Is Heisey as good as Bruce? probably not. But he does seem very good so far. And I'm not even advocating him being the starter, just on a rotation in the OF. 3 time a week he should start.

GAC
07-08-2010, 07:31 PM
Try this one then. If Jay Bruce were knocking on the door to the Cincinnati Reds and he was being blocked by Jonny Gomes, how mad would you be?

Totally irrelevant. We're not discussing Bruce, he has nothing to do with Heisey, so why "muddy the waters"? Bruce was a #1 pick. Heisey was a 17th rounder. So why use Bruce? Why not Votto? Again, it's irrelevant.

Gomes isn't blocking anyone. We went into this year with a huge question mark at LF, and at the time, Heisey wasn't even in the equation. Heisey didn't even make the OD roster, and only got his shot because CDick went down. If that hadn't occurred, where would Heisey be right now?

Now having said that, I'm glad Chris has performed relatively well during his limited time up here. But this is typical Redzone. Last month it was Heisey should be our everyday CFer because Stubbs was struggling. Over the winter most everyone (not you) was wanting us to resign Gomes and wondering what was holding up this FO.

Yes, Heisey, in again, in his very limited playing capacity, has shown promise. He's just as someone mentioned earlier - the "flavor of the week" - because he's had some solid highlights as a PHer and late inning replacement. But if given more ABs and he all of a sudden starts to falter, people will turn on him just like they have Stubbs and so many other young players who passed through here.

But it's simply ridiculous to use such a very small sample size and say that Chris has out performed Gomes this year. Using your "argument", if Heisey had only appeared in 1 game, but went 4 fer 4, he out performed the three months of numbers by Gomes because his BA, OB%, and OPS are higher. It's silly.

I've already stated I have no problem at all with using Heisey to give rest to the other OFers, and even as a defensive replacement. Not arguing that at all.

Just this notion that 63 ABs has out performed 264. ;)