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alloverjr
07-09-2010, 01:08 AM
I know I'm beating a dead horse, but can the organization not do better than this? We've seen a half year of this line, in the one or two spot in the order for a large chunk of the year, and it drives me absolutely batty. He brings experience but little else as far as I can see. Limited range, though he seems to make the plays he gets to. I know Lee is on most people's wish list and #1 priority and a TOR guy, a real hammer, would be great. But I would love to see this club upgrade this position. His glove doesn't even warrant an 8 hole placement IMO. Allegedly Drew is not on the table although it's certainly worth a tire kick. Anyone else out there? Or is RZ content with the one player who makes me vomit each time he steps to the plate?

I still don't feel better. ;)

reds1869
07-09-2010, 01:22 AM
I would be OK with Cabrera if he were in the eight hole and his glovework improved slightly. As a top of the order guy he isn't cutting it and Janish certainly outfields him.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:23 AM
I'm one who likes his at bats, for some reason, but I totally agree we need to be at least getting Janish some cuts 1-2 times a week.

mdccclxix
07-09-2010, 01:24 AM
Post-injury has been really bad. It's time to recognize that.

kaldaniels
07-09-2010, 01:44 AM
A) http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82779

B) Why can we not mention the word Cabrera?

Homer Bailey
07-09-2010, 03:02 AM
Yeah. We need Janish in the lineup. Because we know Dusty won't bat him 2nd. :rolleyes:

OnBaseMachine
07-09-2010, 03:40 AM
Cabrera is getting closer to Patterson/Taveras territory. Shortstop (and LF) is a big problem right now. If Cabrera is going to continue to play everyday then he should at least bat 8th where he won't hurt the offense as much.

fearofpopvol1
07-09-2010, 03:49 AM
It's out of control now. He should be dropped to 8th or hitting the bench. The 1st pitch swinging is just out of control.

Razor Shines
07-09-2010, 03:58 AM
Yeah. We need Janish in the lineup. Because we know Dusty won't bat him 2nd. :rolleyes:

Janish has hit 8th 11 times and 2nd 3 times this year.

Ron Madden
07-09-2010, 04:55 AM
Cabrera is getting closer to Patterson/Taveras territory. Shortstop (and LF) is a big problem right now. If Cabrera is going to continue to play everyday then he should at least bat 8th where he won't hurt the offense as much.

I totally agree with this statement.

nemesis
07-09-2010, 05:41 AM
As much as Cabrera is hurting the top of the order, I am suprised that Rolen's slump hasn't been really discussed...

.290/.321/.611 in July and this goes back a bit into June.

That's worse than Cabrera .303/.323/.626 - Miller .250/.458/.708 - Gomes .310/.407/.717 - Stubbs .313/.567/.880

Only Bruce .258/.286/.544 is worse.

Is he starting to wear down? Votto cannot be the only RBI man on the team. He needs Rolen and either Bruce or Gomes to help out.

GAC
07-09-2010, 08:38 AM
Janish has hit 8th 11 times and 2nd 3 times this year.

And in the #8 spot he has had 22 ABs and put up these numbers....

.136 BA .321 OB% .182 SLG% .503 OPS

He's had 17 ABs in the #2 hole with this line......294 .400 .588 .988

Personally, the above numbers mean very little to me because of the small sample size. But which one is closer to his career norms which is....

.215 .303 .313 .616 and worse then the title of this thread.

Many got all excited when Janish entered the game last Sunday, after Votto got ejected, and went 4 fer 4 with a HR and 3 RBIs. Many keep claiming that Janish, because he's in his peak year at age 27, is coming into his own. Yet Janish entered that game with three HRs and 28 RBIs in 382 career ABs.

Yes Janish is a stellar defensive player. And if they benched OCab tomorrow I probably wouldn't put up too much resistance. But the problem is that Janish has not proven his bat at a consistent level. You take a look at his numbers while at AA/AAA and they are not stellar.

Yet now, all of a sudden, based on very small sample sizes, and also due to the extreme dislike for Cabrera (and good points are made there), we want to ignore the above and give Janish more playing time? Now if your argument is for a defensive upgrade, then you get no argument. But offensively I think you'll get your heart broke even more.

I don't think there isn't a person on this forum that wouldn't like a better solution at the #2 hole then Cabrera. We've tried numerous other "experiments" and they haven't worked too well.

Cabrera was inserted at leadoff in the first week of May, and for a short time provided some spark. Yes, people said he'd end up regressing to his career norms, and most wouldn't argue with that, and that is pretty much exactly what happened.

But they'll utilize Cabrera's career numbers against him, but not Janish's. Somehow Janish's career numbers are ignored or not to be taken seriously. Why is that?

I do like the suggestion made awhile back of trying Bruce there, but other then that, we're really running out of options.

Razor Shines
07-09-2010, 08:42 AM
I don't think his numbers in the 8 spot vs. the 2 spot matter too much. I don't honestly think that he'll hit much better if any than Cabrera, but he is a much better defender than OCab. So if they're gonna be equally sucky at the plate, why not play Janish with his superior glove?

GAC
07-09-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't think his numbers in the 8 spot vs. the 2 spot matter too much. I don't honestly think that he'll hit much better if any than Cabrera, but he is a much better defender than OCab. So if they're gonna be equally sucky at the plate, why not play Janish with his superior glove?

Good argument; but what if Janish's offense was even worse? Would his better defense offset the lack in offense, or hurt us even more? That I don't know.

And while his defensive skills have deteriorated, due to age, I don't think OCab is as terrible as some try to contend. But I say that strictly from observation, and not from pouring over defensive matrix' - which I'm sure someone will soon post in response. ;)

oneupper
07-09-2010, 09:01 AM
As much as Cabrera is hurting the top of the order, I am suprised that Rolen's slump hasn't been really discussed...

.290/.321/.611 in July and this goes back a bit into June.

That's worse than Cabrera .303/.323/.626 - Miller .250/.458/.708 - Gomes .310/.407/.717 - Stubbs .313/.567/.880

Only Bruce .258/.286/.544 is worse.

Is he starting to wear down? Votto cannot be the only RBI man on the team. He needs Rolen and either Bruce or Gomes to help out.

Rolen feasted on breaking balls early in the season. He waited for them, got them and crushed them.
Now he's getting a steady diet of heat, heat and more heat. His bat isn't as quick anymore and he can't keep up.
He'll adjust, but I don't think we can expect anything like his first half in the second half.

Screwball
07-09-2010, 09:13 AM
As much as Cabrera is hurting the top of the order, I am suprised that Rolen's slump hasn't been really discussed...

.290/.321/.611 in July and this goes back a bit into June.

That's worse than Cabrera .303/.323/.626 - Miller .250/.458/.708 - Gomes .310/.407/.717 - Stubbs .313/.567/.880

Only Bruce .258/.286/.544 is worse.

Is he starting to wear down? Votto cannot be the only RBI man on the team. He needs Rolen and either Bruce or Gomes to help out.

Rolen went through a similar cold spell earlier this season when he was moved to the 4-hole. It made a noticeable impact on the offense and I wondered aloud if we were witnessing the beginning of the end. He then went on a tear, OPSing ~1.000 for a month +.

I think what Rolen's going through now is just part of the ebb and flow all players go through throughout the course of a season. It does look like his bat is a tick slow on the heat, but then again I'm not sure what player looks good during a slump. If he OPSes about .600 for a couple more months like Cabrera, you'll see plenty more threads discussing Rolen's performance.

nate
07-09-2010, 10:38 AM
As much as Cabrera is hurting the top of the order, I am suprised that Rolen's slump hasn't been really discussed...

.290/.321/.611 in July and this goes back a bit into June.

Maybe it's because Rolen's "slump" encompasses 31 PAs and O-Cab's "slump" encompasses over 10x that amount.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:10 AM
.282 / .327 / .609

Just thought I'd update this while everyone's in a good mood.

:thumbup:

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:45 AM
as long as Dusty is the manager OCab is going to play SS.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 12:52 AM
as long as Dusty is the manager OCab is going to play SS.

So are you saying that if we make just 1 move at the top, we may see improvement? ;)

Look, I detested the Dusty signing almost as much as the election of Obama, and unfortunately I think/know you're right. Walt just has to give him better toys in certain areas to play with. The Cabrerra signing hasn't worked out. Work out a deal for a player like Drew and relegate Orlando to the bench.

flyer85
07-10-2010, 12:57 AM
The Cabrerra signing hasn't worked out. Work out a deal for a player like Drew and relegate Orlando to the bench.make it happen walt.

alloverjr
07-10-2010, 01:03 AM
make it happen walt.

I'd go after this 100x's harder than I would have Cliff Lee.

Blitz Dorsey
07-10-2010, 11:21 AM
Cabrera is just killing this team with his weak stick (and he's never going to help defensively -- average at best). Time to give Janish a shot at starting everyday, which is crazy for me to say since I've been anti-Janish. O-Cab is just that O-Bad.

_Sir_Charles_
07-10-2010, 12:53 PM
Janish has hit 8th 11 times and 2nd 3 times this year.

Which is more disturbing? That he's hit in these slots this many times OR that he's only had 50 AB's period? Meanwhile Corky Miller has more AB's that Janish and Cairo has TWICE as many.

Blitz Dorsey
07-10-2010, 05:20 PM
Never thought I would be here saying "Paul Janish needs more playing time."

Thank you Orlando Cabrera for sinking my shortstop expectations to an all-time low! A .240 hitter who is average-at-best with the glove gets to keep his job no questions asked. Talk about an equal-opportunity employer. Let's not sit a guy based on minor details like completely sucking.

KronoRed
07-10-2010, 05:59 PM
make it happen walt.

That'll be the day

Cabrera is magic.

Captain Hook
07-10-2010, 06:20 PM
Never thought I would be here saying "Paul Janish needs more playing time."

Thank you Orlando Cabrera for sinking my shortstop expectations to an all-time low! A .240 hitter who is average-at-best with the glove gets to keep his job no questions asked. Talk about an equal-opportunity employer. Let's not sit a guy based on minor details like completely sucking.

He has been terrible.More then anything he also has been handled terribly.When you consider his age and the fact that he hasn't preformed well there is no reason he shouldn't be given a day off at least once a week.Kind of like Rolen but maybe more like how Dusty handles the catchers when Hani and Razor are both healthy.Probably somewhere in the middle though.

As long as Corky isn't in the lineup there isn't 1 good reason Cabrera shouldn't be hitting 8th and not 1 spot higher when he does play.I believe the batting order does make a difference and the team has shown that at least in streaks changes help.I know at one time Ocab was the answer but now he's the problem.Something needs done.

Things like this and then moves like last night(there is a whole thread about it)are reasons people get worked up about Baker from time to time.I think Dusty has handled some things ok this year but he's still doing things that are hurting the team on occasion.A bad decision here a bad philosophy there and we see few very important wins slip through their fingers.I admit that a few of the things I've complained about this year have eventually been fixed so I still have some hope that Dusty will make the right changes.It's by no means too late.

GADawg
07-10-2010, 07:05 PM
Cabrera is getting closer to Patterson/Taveras territory. Shortstop (and LF) is a big problem right now. If Cabrera is going to continue to play everyday then he should at least bat 8th where he won't hurt the offense as much.

seriously LF is killing us? Gomes is 5th in the NL in ribbies and 30 in OPS...ahead of names like Bay, Braun, Heyward, and Ludwick. Dude ain't perfect but he's had huge hits all year and by all accounts is a real team leader.

RedsManRick
07-10-2010, 07:18 PM
seriously LF is killing us? Gomes is 5th in the NL in ribbies and 30 in OPS...ahead of names like Bay, Braun, Heyward, and Ludwick. Dude ain't perfect but he's had huge hits all year and by all accounts is a real team leader.

Defense counts too.

GADawg
07-10-2010, 07:50 PM
Defense counts too.

yep again the defense thing. No team has ever won a championship without a gold glove leftfielder. I always get the feeling that the defense argument is always used when people simply won't admit that they were wrong and that Gomes can pretty much be an everyday player. I only wish he was as good with the glove as Soriano, Manny, or Jason Bay!:rolleyes:

osuceltic
07-10-2010, 08:00 PM
The team is in first place because they've been one of the best offensive teams in the league and they play good defense. The team will also tell you -- whether you agree or not matters not in the least -- that chemistry and professionalism have had something to do with it as well. And the three names most often brough up in the chemistry/professionalism discussion are Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Cabrera and Gomes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Nor should they.

This team needs a legit starter and bullpen help. That's where any changes will happen, if they happen at all.

And Cabrera hasn't been as bad as you all suggest. Not everyone is Barry Larkin. Cabrera has been in a slump at the plate, but his defense has been rock solid -- and there's a lot more that goes into defense at SS than just range.

GADawg
07-10-2010, 08:21 PM
The team is in first place because they've been one of the best offensive teams in the league and they play good defense. The team will also tell you -- whether you agree or not matters not in the least -- that chemistry and professionalism have had something to do with it as well. And the three names most often brough up in the chemistry/professionalism discussion are Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Cabrera and Gomes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Nor should they.

This team needs a legit starter and bullpen help. That's where any changes will happen, if they happen at all.

And Cabrera hasn't been as bad as you all suggest. Not everyone is Barry Larkin. Cabrera has been in a slump at the plate, but his defense has been rock solid -- and there's a lot more that goes into defense at SS than just range.

I'm with you here mostly. Like alot of people here I've got kind've an itchy trigger finger in regards to the Janish/Cabrera thing but then again I was in the Janish camp during the winter. By the same token if the Reds make the playoffs for some reason I'd be more comfortable with Cabrera facing off against aces like Jimenez, Hudson or even C.C.

As for the legit starter/bullpen help I guess we're all hoping that Edinson and Chapman fill the bill.

VR
07-11-2010, 12:41 PM
I've seen one plus play from OCab on defense this year. I seen them nightly from Rolen and Phillips.

The worst thing about last nights game was OCab's blind squirrel bat find the nut twice for two gift singles.....that will get him another 3-20 stretch before it becomes evident again that he needs to be moved. Time off isn't needed for him because of the AS break.

One full week ago, Janish went 4-4. He hasn't had an at bat since. Cabrera has gone 4-26 in the last week.....3 of those being pure gifts. A .306 OPS. (Remember, 3 gifts in there)

nate
07-11-2010, 01:00 PM
I just ran some calculations and coming into today, O-Cab would have to put up a .310/.368/.474/.842 line in the second half of the season to equal his career averages.

Ron Madden
07-11-2010, 01:06 PM
I just ran some calculations and coming into today, O-Cab would have to put up a .310/.368/.474/.842 line in the second half of the season to equal his career averages.

I don't think there's a very good chance of Cabrera ever putting up those kind of numbers.

I've had a SS on my off season wish list for the last five years.

nate
07-11-2010, 01:21 PM
I don't think there's a very good chance of Cabrera ever putting up those kind of numbers.

I've had a SS on my off season wish list for the last five years.

He's had three half-season splits of >.800 OPS...none recently.

Maybe put a SS on your "on season wish list!"

:cool:

pahster
07-11-2010, 01:27 PM
The team is in first place because they've been one of the best offensive teams in the league and they play good defense. The team will also tell you -- whether you agree or not matters not in the least -- that chemistry and professionalism have had something to do with it as well. And the three names most often brough up in the chemistry/professionalism discussion are Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Cabrera and Gomes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Nor should they.

This team needs a legit starter and bullpen help. That's where any changes will happen, if they happen at all.

And Cabrera hasn't been as bad as you all suggest. Not everyone is Barry Larkin. Cabrera has been in a slump at the plate, but his defense has been rock solid -- and there's a lot more that goes into defense at SS than just range.

I don't think he's in a slump; I think he's done. At 35 years old, I don't think he's got much left in the tank. He was never very good with a bat in his hands anyway.

pedro
07-11-2010, 01:30 PM
I don't think he's in a slump; I think he's done.

I've been one of his biggest supporters but it certainly has looked that way.

CesarGeronimo
07-11-2010, 01:52 PM
The team is in first place because they've been one of the best offensive teams in the league and they play good defense. The team will also tell you -- whether you agree or not matters not in the least -- that chemistry and professionalism have had something to do with it as well. And the three names most often brough up in the chemistry/professionalism discussion are Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Cabrera and Gomes aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Nor should they.

This team needs a legit starter and bullpen help. That's where any changes will happen, if they happen at all.

And Cabrera hasn't been as bad as you all suggest. Not everyone is Barry Larkin. Cabrera has been in a slump at the plate, but his defense has been rock solid -- and there's a lot more that goes into defense at SS than just range.

I haven't seen many, if any, people suggest that Cabrera should be benched or should no longer be the starter. What some are saying is that Cabrera should be rested more, maybe once or twice a week, and Janish should play more often. How will that hurt the chemistry or professionalism of the team? IF Cabrera were to be moved down in the order, that also would not hurt the chemistry of the team. Gomes sits out more often than Cabrera does, yet you still cite him as one of the keys to chemistry and professionalism.

osuceltic
07-11-2010, 02:24 PM
I haven't seen many, if any, people suggest that Cabrera should be benched or should no longer be the starter. What some are saying is that Cabrera should be rested more, maybe once or twice a week, and Janish should play more often. How will that hurt the chemistry or professionalism of the team? IF Cabrera were to be moved down in the order, that also would not hurt the chemistry of the team. Gomes sits out more often than Cabrera does, yet you still cite him as one of the keys to chemistry and professionalism.

Did you read this thread? There have been more than a few people calling for him to be benched.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2010, 02:26 PM
Did you read this thread? There have been more than a few people calling for him to be benched.

And deservedly so. He's got a .283 OBP and .612 OPS and below average range at SS. At the very least he needs to start getting 2-3 days off a week and should bat 8th instead of 2nd.

osuceltic
07-11-2010, 02:36 PM
And deservedly so. He's got a .283 OBP and .612 OPS and below average range at SS. At the very least he needs to start getting 2-3 days off a week and should bat 8th instead of 2nd.

You do realize that those numbers, while representing pretty much the floor for Cabrera, are almost identical to Janish's career numbers, right? There is no rational reason to believe Janish will be a better hitter than Cabrera. Will he be better defensively? Maybe. Is it worth disrupting the chemistry of this team to try it? Absolutely not.

I'm fine with giving Janish a start once a week or so to keep him sharp and give Cabrera a break to stay fresh. But arguing for benching him is one of those arguments that makes people not take stats guys so seriously.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2010, 02:42 PM
You do realize that those numbers, while representing pretty much the floor for Cabrera, are almost identical to Janish's career numbers, right? There is no rational reason to believe Janish will be a better hitter than Cabrera. Will he be better defensively? Maybe. Is it worth disrupting the chemistry of this team to try it? Absolutely not.

I'm fine with giving Janish a start once a week or so to keep him sharp and give Cabrera a break to stay fresh. But arguing for benching him is one of those arguments that makes people not take stats guys so seriously.

Is it worth disrupting "team chemistry?" Yes. It's time to see what Paul Janish can do. We already know he's much better defensively than Cabrera. Even if he hits like Cabrera has this season he's still an upgrade with the glove.

Brutus
07-11-2010, 02:44 PM
You do realize that those numbers, while representing pretty much the floor for Cabrera, are almost identical to Janish's career numbers, right? There is no rational reason to believe Janish will be a better hitter than Cabrera. Will he be better defensively? Maybe. Is it worth disrupting the chemistry of this team to try it? Absolutely not.

I'm fine with giving Janish a start once a week or so to keep him sharp and give Cabrera a break to stay fresh. But arguing for benching him is one of those arguments that makes people not take stats guys so seriously.

Who's to say it would disrupt the chemistry? I'm all about intangibles. I think they matter. But you don't leave a below-average defender, hitting .612, in the lineup for the sake of "chemistry."

There's no reason to believe Janish can't at least hit .650 over the long haul. His strikeout rates continue to improve, meaning he'll put the ball in play enough to carry a decent average (thereby a solid on base percentage). Cabrera might be at his floor, but he didn't have a high ceiling to begin with.

Where neither are great options to hit well, at least we know Janish will make up for it defensively. If neither will hit, at least put someone in there that can be an asset with the glove.

RedsManRick
07-11-2010, 02:49 PM
I'd love to see Janish playing 3 days a week (or more). At minimum, Cabrera should be lowered in the order. There's no justification for him eating up outs in the 2-hole. Considering how well Votto handles lefties, I'd bat Bruce second, Cabrera 7th, and push Stubbs up to 6th.

nate
07-11-2010, 03:01 PM
I'd love to see Janish playing 3 days a week (or more). At minimum, Cabrera should be lowered in the order. There's no justification for him eating up outs in the 2-hole. Considering how well Votto handles lefties, I'd bat Bruce second, Cabrera 7th, and push Stubbs up to 6th.

Yes.

NJReds
07-11-2010, 03:03 PM
Maybe the Orioles would be willing to trade Tejada. He could play SS and spell Rolen at 3B.

VR
07-11-2010, 03:13 PM
Maybe the Orioles would be willing to trade Tejada. He could play SS and spell Rolen at 3B.

He makes OCab look like Mark Belanger out there. The .675 OPS isn't enticing either.