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View Full Version : Reds need to pull out of trade market



brm7675
07-09-2010, 04:10 PM
With it looking like the evil empire will add to their wealth and add Cliff Lee, I really don't see any other possible pitcher on the market outside of Oswalt whom would be that significant of an upgrade over what the Reds already have. As for Oswalt, unless the Stros would be willing to eat some portion of his remaining contract, he is not coming to cincy, nor do I see them dealing him to a division rival. So lets forget about Haren or anyone else, see what Edinison can bring when called up and keep our young talent and go with what has gotten us here. Adding a difference maker like Lee is one thing, trading for talent equal to what you already have is pointless.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 04:23 PM
While I don't think Walt will have the same attitude I can see what you're saying. A Dan Haren/Roy Oswalt is a significant step down from Lee and considering the years left on their contracts the price will be high for less impact.

I think we need to pull out of the trade market for a big name SP. We still could use another solid, experienced bench player to replace Nix, and possibly a reliever. If we can find those inexpensive pieces that still help build a stronger team he needs to jump at the opportunity.

Carin4Narron
07-09-2010, 04:24 PM
With it looking like the evil empire will add to their wealth and add Cliff Lee, I really don't see any other possible pitcher on the market outside of Oswalt whom would be that significant of an upgrade over what the Reds already have. As for Oswalt, unless the Stros would be willing to eat some portion of his remaining contract, he is not coming to cincy, nor do I see them dealing him to a division rival. So lets forget about Haren or anyone else, see what Edinison can bring when called up and keep our young talent and go with what has gotten us here. Adding a difference maker like Lee is one thing, trading for talent equal to what you already have is pointless.

If they pull out of the trade market, they look weak like they have for a decade. If I was Walt, as soon as I heard Cashman was talking to Seattle, i would had called Seattle snd offered everything they wanted for Lee.

The Yankees, like them or not, aren't scared to pull the trigger on things. Teams like the Reds are! The Reds have enough to win the division. But getting a guy like Lee would have made them world series champion contenders. Walt and the Front Office aren't prepared to do what it takes to win a World Series which is ashame because the Reds players finally are ready to do what it takes to win!

markymark69
07-09-2010, 04:24 PM
I agree. Big time starter is probably out. I would like to see another bat off the bench and another set up guy.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 04:28 PM
If they pull out of the trade market, they look weak like they have for a decade. If I was Walt, as soon as I heard Cashman was talking to Seattle, i would had called Seattle snd offered everything they wanted for Lee.

The Yankees, like them or not, aren't scared to pull the trigger on things. Teams like the Reds are! The Reds have enough to win the division. But getting a guy like Lee would have made them world series champion contenders. Walt and the Front Office aren't prepared to do what it takes to win a World Series which is ashame because the Reds players finally are ready to do what it takes to win!

The Yankees have that luxury because they can always go out and sign 1-2 top FA's in the offseason if the deal doesn't work out. The lost talent they trade can always be replenished by reaping the benefits of their insane payroll.

The Reds can't play that game without putting their next 5 years at risk. If they trade away 2 or 3 players that end up being quality starting players at their position at the league minimum, they just threw away their chances at competing for a few years most likely. Two different markets, two different philosophies. It just has to be that way, it's the reality of things. You can't fault the Reds F.O. for not being able to pull the trigger like the Yankees can.

Pony Boy
07-09-2010, 04:31 PM
The Yankees, like them or not, aren't scared to pull the trigger on things. Teams like the Reds are! The Reds have enough to win the division. But getting a guy like Lee would have made them world series champion contenders. Walt and the Front Office aren't prepared to do what it takes to win a World Series which is ashame because the Reds players finally are ready to do what it takes to win!

The Reds are scared because, unlike the Yankees, they have no margin for error. If they give up players for Lee that go on to be productive (and cheap) for the next several years for the Mariners then the Reds just shot themselves in the foot. Imagine if the Reds would have traded Joey Votto 3 years ago for a half season of whoever was the pitcher of the moment, and that trade didnt result in a title or even a playoff appearance.

If Montero winds up an All-Star for the Mariners, the Yankees will simply add him to the payroll when he becomes available in 5 years.

bounty37h
07-09-2010, 04:38 PM
With it looking like the evil empire will add to their wealth and add Cliff Lee, I really don't see any other possible pitcher on the market outside of Oswalt whom would be that significant of an upgrade over what the Reds already have. As for Oswalt, unless the Stros would be willing to eat some portion of his remaining contract, he is not coming to cincy, nor do I see them dealing him to a division rival. So lets forget about Haren or anyone else, see what Edinison can bring when called up and keep our young talent and go with what has gotten us here. Adding a difference maker like Lee is one thing, trading for talent equal to what you already have is pointless.

I think they realize htat, were quoted as saying it would have to be significant upgrade to make trade/disrupt chemistry/play they have now.

NeilHamburger
07-09-2010, 05:06 PM
I'm just saying, I think the Reds win that game last night with David DeJesus hitting second.

KOBasinger
07-09-2010, 05:09 PM
I agree with everything you said basically.

No Lee = No reason to shop any prospects before the deadline. Not a big fan of Haren and I don't Oswalt coming here.

Not giving up on Lee though until it is a done deal.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 05:17 PM
A) Where would he play
B) what leads you to say that
C) He can't bat third Orlando is our No. 2 hitter.


I'm just saying, I think the Reds win that game last night with David DeJesus hitting second.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 05:18 PM
How would it make them look weak? I mean really if the M's are able to "steal" a ton of talent from the Yanks for Lee, more power to them, there is no reason to give up the farm for a 3 month rental.


If they pull out of the trade market, they look weak like they have for a decade. If I was Walt, as soon as I heard Cashman was talking to Seattle, i would had called Seattle snd offered everything they wanted for Lee.

The Yankees, like them or not, aren't scared to pull the trigger on things. Teams like the Reds are! The Reds have enough to win the division. But getting a guy like Lee would have made them world series champion contenders. Walt and the Front Office aren't prepared to do what it takes to win a World Series which is ashame because the Reds players finally are ready to do what it takes to win!

AintlifeGrande
07-09-2010, 05:30 PM
CC,Lee,Petitte,Burnett,Hughes.Assuming Vasquez will be part of Lee trade,heck anyone of us could manage that team.

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 05:32 PM
New rumor has Yankees acquiring Dan Haren, Zach Greinke, Josh Johnson, and Roy Oswalt just in case any of their starters get injured. :D ;) :p:

They're trying to set the payroll record at over $300M. They've already contacted the Guinness Book of Records.

My Dad taught me that "pulling out" is always a smart thing to do.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Hold the presses guys, sounds like the Reds could be back in the lead to get Lee.

Trace's Daddy
07-09-2010, 05:50 PM
Hold the presses guys, sounds like the Reds could be back in the lead to get Lee.

Can you elaborate?

BuckWild03
07-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Can you elaborate?

Rangers & Reds In On Lee; Talks With Yanks Slow

3:33pm: The Reds have spoken "extensively" with the Mariners about acquiring Lee in the past 48 hours, a source tells Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (Twitter link). Price reports that the Reds are going "all-out" for Lee (Twitter link).

Orodle
07-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Even though the Reds are ranked 20th+ in every major pitching category you dont think they need to add a pitcher?

Trace's Daddy
07-09-2010, 05:58 PM
mlbtraderumors now says Rangers got Lee

Vottomatic
07-09-2010, 06:00 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/yankees-may-be-close-to-acquiring-cliff-lee.html

Rangers acquire Cliff Lee.

Reds fans acquire an ulcer.

Krawhitham
07-09-2010, 06:07 PM
deal with than Yanks stalled

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5366254

Krawhitham
07-09-2010, 06:08 PM
Lee has been acquired by the Rangers for Justin Smoak and 3 other prospects. Reds package wasn't good enough.

BigPoppa
07-09-2010, 06:09 PM
Reds package wasn't good enough.

Dammit...........I had my hopes up a little. :thumbdown

Krawhitham
07-09-2010, 06:10 PM
SEA is kicking in $2.5 million in order to help offset the $4 million owed to Lee.

Griffey012
07-09-2010, 06:11 PM
The Yankees have that luxury because they can always go out and sign 1-2 top FA's in the offseason if the deal doesn't work out. The lost talent they trade can always be replenished by reaping the benefits of their insane payroll.

The Reds can't play that game without putting their next 5 years at risk. If they trade away 2 or 3 players that end up being quality starting players at their position at the league minimum, they just threw away their chances at competing for a few years most likely. Two different markets, two different philosophies. It just has to be that way, it's the reality of things. You can't fault the Reds F.O. for not being able to pull the trigger like the Yankees can.

If 2 or 3 minor leaguers are putting the Reds next 5 years at risk we have one crappy franchise. Do you realize the talent we have stockpiled in AAA, we have plenty of SP prospects we can easily afford to trade one, we have Yonder blocked by Joey. We have Frazier, Heisey, Stubbs, Francisco/Alonso, Chapman, Leake, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan, Volquez, Cueto, Masset, Ondrusek, Wood, Maloney, Smith, Bray, and more all here and all cheap for the next few years. Plus plenty of low level talent that will replace some of these guys.

I would rather make a push when we have a team, then be afraid to "mortgage" the future. We have been building for the future 10 years, the future is now, let's go for it.

Not to mention we get either a 1st and a supplemental, or a supplemental and a 2nd rounder for Lee. Basically replacing a majority of the talent we give up. Not to mention, the jury is still out on Yonder. I still think we get this worked out because Jocketty/Bob C know how and want to win.

Girevik
07-09-2010, 06:15 PM
Not to mention that I'd MUCH rather have an established, quality major league guy (let alone a stud like Lee) than a prospect. How many great prospects have come through the Reds, and every other, organization only to never materialize. I guess I'm a bird in the hand kind of guy.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 06:17 PM
Would you have given up Bruce for him?


Not to mention that I'd MUCH rather have an established, quality major league guy (let alone a stud like Lee) than a prospect. How many great prospects have come through the Reds, and every other, organization only to never materialize. I guess I'm a bird in the hand kind of guy.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 06:20 PM
Back to the point of the thread: now that Lee is off the table I don't see another arm that has near as much impact that we can get for a reasonable price. Haren and Oswalt have more years left and will be costly acquisitions for a much smaller impact imo. Time for Walt to shift focus and look for a few moves to improve the bench and bullpen. Volquez is our big name starter acquisition before the deadline.

Kingspoint
07-09-2010, 06:23 PM
With it looking like the evil empire will add to their wealth and add Cliff Lee, I really don't see any other possible pitcher on the market outside of Oswalt whom would be that significant of an upgrade over what the Reds already have. As for Oswalt, unless the Stros would be willing to eat some portion of his remaining contract, he is not coming to cincy, nor do I see them dealing him to a division rival. So lets forget about Haren or anyone else, see what Edinison can bring when called up and keep our young talent and go with what has gotten us here. Adding a difference maker like Lee is one thing, trading for talent equal to what you already have is pointless.

We have an ACE in Cueto (only 3 earned runs given up over his last 5 starts despite not having his best stuff w/ a K/BB ratio of 15/14).

We may have another ACE in Volquez.

We have another pitcher who leads all of the National League against Right-handers and who has one of the best ERA's over the last 12 months in Arroyo.

We have other capable pitchers, too.

Lee would have been great. Oswalt would be great, too.

But, there isn't anyone I'd want over Leake, Travis Wood and Homer Bailey.

Griffey012
07-09-2010, 06:37 PM
We have an ACE in Cueto (only 3 earned runs given up over his last 5 starts despite not having his best stuff w/ a K/BB ratio of 15/14).

We may have another ACE in Volquez.

We have another pitcher who leads all of the National League against Right-handers and who has one of the best ERA's over the last 12 months in Arroyo.

We have other capable pitchers, too.

Lee would have been great. Oswalt would be great, too.

But, there isn't anyone I'd want over Leake, Travis Wood and Homer Bailey.

Cueto is not an "ACE" he is a good #2 guy. Hitters aren't thinking aww crap when they have to face Cueto lke they are Halladay, Carpenter, Lee, Sabathia, etc.

Volquez pitched like an "ACE" in '08, hopefully he pitches like one once he returns.


Really? Leake is going to be on limited innings late in the season. Wood has 2 major league starts. Homer has about 35 bad major league starts and 10 good ones, and only 1 of those was this season (against PIT).

Give me LeCure again before Homer. I really don't think Homer has "it", he lacks desire, and seems like he is one of those guys who thinks he knows better than the coaches. I know, I know, he is only 24, but soon he will be 25 and then 26...

I like Leake and Wood as much as anyone else but they are rookies and going to approaching unchartered territory for both of them, we could definitely use some experienced rotation help as long as we don't overpay for it.

Go to http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_pitch.cgi?I=baileho02:Homer%20Bailey&st=age&compage=23&age=23 and look at those similar players, just a scary group.

And then look at Jay Bruce's http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=bruceja01:Jay%20Bruce&st=age&compage=22&age=22 a much better group.

brm7675
07-09-2010, 06:41 PM
I am no where NEAR ready to make that assumption yet:



We may have another ACE in Volquez.

sabometrics
07-09-2010, 06:42 PM
Really? Leake is going to be on limited innings late in the season. Wood has 2 major league starts. Homer has about 35 bad major league starts and 10 good ones, and only 1 of those was this season (against PIT).

Give me LeCure again before Homer. I really don't think Homer has "it", he lacks desire, and seems like he is one of those guys who thinks he knows better than the coaches. I know, I know, he is only 24, but soon he will be 25 and then 26...

I like Leake and Wood as much as anyone else but they are rookies and going to approaching unchartered territory for both of them, we could definitely use some experienced rotation help as long as we don't overpay for it.

Go to http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_pitch.cgi?I=baileho02:Homer%20Bailey&st=age&compage=23&age=23 and look at those similar players, just a scary group.

And then look at Jay Bruce's http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=bruceja01:Jay%20Bruce&st=age&compage=22&age=22 a much better group.

Homers bad days are LeCure's good days. His horrible days are the same as LeCure's bad days. The difference between them is night and day and no manager in their right mind would take Sam over Homer. And Homer not having the desire? Have you heard his interviews? He wreaks of wanting to be in there, almost to a fault. I don't know what is holding him back, but throwing Homer every 5th day is by far a better option than LeCure. Wood? That's debatable. Lecure? No way.

Griffey012
07-09-2010, 06:42 PM
double post

Krawhitham
07-09-2010, 06:43 PM
We may have another ACE in Volquez.


you hope

he blew the 2nd half of 08
he blew in 09

he has had 3 good months


THAT IS IT

Kingspoint
07-09-2010, 06:55 PM
you hope

he blew the 2nd half of 08
he blew in 09

he has had 3 good months


THAT IS IT

Thus the word "may" was used.

Griffey012
07-09-2010, 06:56 PM
Homers bad days are LeCure's good days. His horrible days are the same as LeCure's bad days. The difference between them is night and day and no manager in their right mind would take Sam over Homer. And Homer not having the desire? Have you heard his interviews? He wreaks of wanting to be in there, almost to a fault. I don't know what is holding him back, but throwing Homer every 5th day is by far a better option than LeCure. Wood? That's debatable. Lecure? No way.

Homer's bad days this season:
5.1IP 5ER
5.1IP 5ER


Homer's horrible day this season:
4IP 7ER

LeCure's good days this season:
6.0 IP 2ER
6.0 IP 1ER

LeCure's bad days this season:
6IP 5ER
3.1 3ER

Must be night and day in Alaska during the "midnight sun"

Don't put so much stock into Homer dominating Pittsburgh 3 times in his 10 start stretch last season. He dominated LAD, STL, and FL also, but that has been his saving grace in the big leagues thus far.

Take a pitcher drafted in the 8th round who was heavily committed to college ball and gets a big payday to sign, takes Homer's path to the bigs with the same stuff...and he is sitting in AAA right now until he learns how to pitch and not throw. Homer is hype.

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 04:43 AM
you hope

THAT IS IT


It depends on what the meaning of "is" is. :D

The Voice of IH
07-10-2010, 04:59 AM
Hey Bmr,

sorry about starting the other thread, I did not realize you already had one up about the topic.

Girevik
07-10-2010, 09:42 AM
They don't need to pull out of the trade market, they just need to change the focus to solidifying the pen. Last night is just more evidence.