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Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 03:55 AM
I was dj-ing tonight at a bar in West Chester, so I couldn't post my managing thoughts going into the 9th inning.

This isn't hindsight is 20/20. This is what I was thinking at the time and also the way I think a good manager should think.

1. It's been proven over and over this season, whether it be our Atlanta debacle or St. Louis' recent late game woes, that no lead is safe.

2. It's been extremely hot lately in the midwest and east coast. Doesn't matter if it's cooled off in the later innings........the starting pitcher endured the heat for most of the game. Therefore pitch counts shouldn't be the only factor in determining how long a guy stays in.

3. I realize we used up most of our bullpen the night before and Dusty was trying to avoid going to it. BUT??????

4. I had no problem with Leake going back out in the 9th inning. But what I said to the people around me was "if he gives up a hit or two, he needs to be pulled for Arthur Rhodes because Philly is predominantly a left handed lineup". Dusty leaves him in to give up 4 runs. Ugh. Just plain stupid.

5. Then he brings in the batting tee. I actually called it. I said again "if he walks someone, he'll give up a game tying or winning HR". BAM! And he went full count and threw a ball nearly in the dirt for ball four. Ridiculous. Give him something around the strike zone to hit. YOU DON'T WALK SOMEONE AND ALLOW THE TYING RUN TO COME TO BAT. Pathetic.

This pattern is so predictable.

I seriously wouldn't care if they cut Cordero tomorrow and ate his remaining $18M on his contract. I seriously wouldn't care if they fired Dusty tomorrow and put Schottzie XVI in charge.

I continue to wonder how many games we might be ahead of the Cardinals if we had a less hardheaded manager. Sure......we may be in first place now......but who is to say we couldn't be one of the top two teams in baseball if some of this lame brained managing decisions didn't happen???? And 5 or 7 games ahead of the Cards????

Insert attacking posts here ==============> :rolleyes:

The Voice of IH
07-10-2010, 04:01 AM
what does the question mark after point 3 mean?

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 04:03 AM
It means just because you used alot of your bullpen the night before.......it doesn't mean you can't use ANY of your bullpen the next night.

The Voice of IH
07-10-2010, 04:04 AM
but didn't the Bull Pen lose the game today?

Reds42MLB
07-10-2010, 04:06 AM
Overreaction about a blow up FTW! Please grow up.

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 04:07 AM
Dusty waiting too long lost the game in my opinion.

And his insistence in using Cordero in tight situations is mind boggling.

Reds42MLB
07-10-2010, 04:09 AM
Dusty waiting too long lost the game in my opinion.

And his insistence in using Cordero in tight situations is mind boggling.

Wawawa. Kick Dusty when he loses, never praise him when he wins. I swear you armchair GM's are pathetic. Quit acting like you know anything please.

The Voice of IH
07-10-2010, 04:12 AM
Dusty waiting too long lost the game in my opinion.

And his insistence in using Cordero in tight situations is mind boggling.

well, Cordero is the closer, I.E he is suppose to be only used in tight situation.
I don't think It is dusty faults at all, the team collapsed. it happens, called baseball, drives us all mad.

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 04:14 AM
When your closer continues to struggle in "CLOSING" situations, it's time to go in a different direction.

Unfortunately, Cordero's large salary dictates these situations. Which is a bad reason.

Reds42MLB
07-10-2010, 04:15 AM
When your closer continues to struggle in "CLOSING" situations, it's time to go in a different direction.

Unfortunately, Cordero's large salary dictates these situations. Which is a bad reason.

Rhodes gave up the game winning HR if you don't recall. Who you trying to use there buddy??? Seriously take a break and come back when you grow up. Your hot and cold nature on here gets old quick.

The Voice of IH
07-10-2010, 04:51 AM
Rhodes gave up the game winning HR if you don't recall. Who you trying to use there buddy??? Seriously take a break and come back when you grow up. Your hot and cold nature on here gets old quick.

Ok, I have to defend Vottomatic here. It is a lot easier (and reasonable) to go after the lack of performance by CoCo then Rhodes.


WHAT YOU ALREADY KNOW

Exhibit A: Rhodes has been exceptional this year, Coco...has Sucked

Rhodes had a 33 game shutout streak and made the all star team. Rhodes has been by far the most reliable pitcher in the pin. to go after Rhodes after this melt down by him after what he has given us...is silly.

CoCo has added a lot of frustration in the past couple of years. even if he leads the league in saves, he also leads it in blown saves. plus, it seems that every time he goes out, he makes things much more interesting then it needs to be.

Exhibit B: Salaries

CoCo. 12,125,000
Rhodes 2,000,000

I understand that Rhodes actually got pinned with the lost tonight, but CoCo HAS to come and get 2 outs in that big spot, but once again...he failed. but The reds are really handcuffed with that record breaking, historical, contract that he has.

I think Coco needs to be 'demoted' to a set up guy, if you HAVE to play him, might as well give up a lead in the 7th and have a chance of coming back. :thumbup:

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 05:10 AM
Ok, I have to defend Vottomatic here. It is a lot easier (and reasonable) to go after the lack of performance by CoCo then Rhodes.



I understand that Rhodes actually got pinned with the lost tonight, but CoCo HAS to come and get 2 outs in that big spot, but once again...he failed. but The reds are really handcuffed with that record breaking, historical, contract that he has.

I think Coco needs to be 'demoted' to a set up guy, if you HAVE to play him, might as well give up a lead in the 7th and have a chance of coming back. :thumbup:

We have found something we agree on.

I wanted Dusty to bring in Rhodes in the 9th if Leake let 2 baserunners get on. A Rhodes implosion more than likely wouldn't have been 6 runs. He's been pretty consistent this year. More than likely, a Rhodes implosion would be giving up a couple of runs but still getting 3 outs. Plus Philly is predominatly lefthanded.

I'm still waiting for Reds Management and Dusty to start going with the hot hand and stop going with roles. It's clear that Cordero is either just having a season long struggle or quite possibly is losing some of his ability.

I long for the days of Sparky Anderson's quick hook. Sparky didn't mess around. If a reliever came in and struggled, he yanked them quickly and gave the next guy a try. If that guy struggled with one batter, at most two, Sparky replaced him. Sparky looked for the hot hand and that's why his teams did so well. He was no nonsense when it came to pitching.

RedsFanInBama
07-10-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't really blame Dusty for last night. He wasn't perfect, but I was more upset with running a clearly beat Cabrera out there and letting him go 0-6 than I was how the pitchers were handled.

But, Dusty does have us 10 games over .500, so he's done a good job this season. Much better than any season in recent years.

cbowen2112
07-10-2010, 12:58 PM
I don't really blame Dusty for last night. He wasn't perfect, but I was more upset with running a clearly beat Cabrera out there and letting him go 0-6 than I was how the pitchers were handled.

But, Dusty does have us 10 games over .500, so he's done a good job this season. Much better than any season in recent years.

I am glad someone can say this. I was just about to post basically the same thing.

brm7675
07-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Last night was it for me. I will still watch them play and such, but as long as Dusty is our manager I GUARENTEE this team will not make the playoffs. He has ZERO ability to in game manage. He is to worried about how players view him over winning. As long as you have that attitude you can not win. I am willing to bet come sunday night and the All Star break we will be tied with St. Louis for the lead and Dusty will again have some excuse.

brm7675
07-10-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't really blame Dusty for last night. He wasn't perfect, but I was more upset with running a clearly beat Cabrera out there and letting him go 0-6 than I was how the pitchers were handled.

But, Dusty does have us 10 games over .500, so he's done a good job this season. Much better than any season in recent years.

It's views like this that kill me, my friend has the same view. It was Dusty's fault last night, there was NO reason in He** that this team lost that game. Add to that the issue of continually playing a non performing Cabrera, not having position players to use the night before in extra innings is ALL the managers fault. The talent is there, but when misused it can not be successful long term.

winks
07-10-2010, 05:21 PM
I knew this thread would be here. This one is not dusty's fault. I couldnt imagine the fallout if dusty had pulled leake going to the 9th(and they won). Or if he had brought in someone other than cordero in the 9th(whats dusty doing bringing in whoever cordero is the closer). or put someone else in in the 10th(what hes not pitching rhodes against the 2 lefties). He did exactly what we all thought he should have done and it didnt work. should cordero still be closing probably not, but its not our money paying him.

demas863
07-10-2010, 05:31 PM
Vottomatic is right on. Don't forget Leake ran the bases four times in oven-like weather so forget relatively low pitch count. I can see Baker leaving him in if he were going for a no-hitter and maybe even a shutout but for a complete game - nonsense. The guy's going to get shut down early for the number of innings pitched so why not save him a little - pull him and congratulate him for having done a great job. He had his confidence booster. Furthermore, if Dusty's going to mechanically stick with his closer no matter what then why have Price come out to tell him to spend time throwing repeatedly to first while Rhodes warms up for the good lefthanders. Cordero has been awful. He may be ailing. He slingshots his fastball and doesn't appear to have a breaking ball (at least he doesn't try throwing one). I suspected something was wrong with him when early on he pitched everybody outside as if afraid to come inside because his stuff was gone. So, Dusty, stop cutting the baby in half. Make up your mind. I personally prefer that Cordero sit and make it known to him and Price that he's got to make some adjustments and get his act together. Does Dusty have the guts to sit a guy making zillions or does he take the safer, more political option of doing nothing and watching the Reds' fine start disintegrate? Castellini once said Baker's a "winner." I think Jocketty thinks otherwise and that is why he (Baker) is going to be gone at season's end.

Griffey012
07-10-2010, 06:03 PM
Last night was it for me. I will still watch them play and such, but as long as Dusty is our manager I GUARENTEE this team will not make the playoffs. He has ZERO ability to in game manage. He is to worried about how players view him over winning. As long as you have that attitude you can not win. I am willing to bet come sunday night and the All Star break we will be tied with St. Louis for the lead and Dusty will again have some excuse.

Bold guarantee considering we havent been to the playoffs in what 15 years?

Not using this as an example, because it shouldn't have been close, but when you play as many tight games as we do, your gonna lose a lot of tight games and win a lot of tight games, we have won a lot more tight games than we have won...that means our manager has to be pushing the right late game buttons more times than not.

Griffey012
07-10-2010, 06:09 PM
WAIT A SECOND....How many runners did we stinking leave on base??? We left the bases full nearly every single inning. Half this loss needs to be pinned on the offense for only scoring 7 runs when we should have scored about 16.

I left with 1 out in the 9th and a 7-1 score still as Price came out to speak with Leake, so I really don't know what completely unfolded so I can't form a good opinion there. Although I do know Cordero has got to stop walking people holy bajeezus.

My question with Leake was were the hitters hitting good pitches, or was he leaving stuff up in the zone all the sudden?

lidspinner
07-10-2010, 06:55 PM
Rhodes gave up the game winning HR if you don't recall. Who you trying to use there buddy??? Seriously take a break and come back when you grow up. Your hot and cold nature on here gets old quick.


I normally done post to put the hammer down but I feel the need to...your last few posts are bashing members of this site calling them names and telling them to grow up....when in fact we all need to grow up for spending so much time on a message board talking about other men.....but we are all fans of the same team....and opinions are what drives this site and are what keeps us all comming back....if we all agreed on the same thing and sat around and sang happy songs while we hugged each other then half the population would be gone.....watching people meltdown and others not is what makes this place so great to hang......so please try hard next time to refrain from bashing members who hang here night in and night out..some fans are really true fans and hold the Reds near to their heart, while others could care less what happens....what makes us all different is what makes us all the 1 community of fans....lets embrace all fans of the Reds, even if they do take 1-2 games a little to serious....LOL...:D

sivman17
07-10-2010, 06:59 PM
Three mistakes on the basepaths. Leake gave up a 3-run bomb. Co-Co blew it. Rhodes lost it.

I don't blame this one on Dusty. Anyone that does blame it on him is simply reaching.

sabometrics
07-10-2010, 07:05 PM
WAIT A SECOND....How many runners did we stinking leave on base??? We left the bases full nearly every single inning. Half this loss needs to be pinned on the offense for only scoring 7 runs when we should have scored about 16.

I left with 1 out in the 9th and a 7-1 score still as Price came out to speak with Leake, so I really don't know what completely unfolded so I can't form a good opinion there. Although I do know Cordero has got to stop walking people holy bajeezus.

My question with Leake was were the hitters hitting good pitches, or was he leaving stuff up in the zone all the sudden?

He jammed Howard with a good pitch in on the hands. He broke Werth's bat with a good pitch. I don't recall where the pitch was that Victorino doubled on. He made a poor pitch to Dobbs that was knee high and all over the plate. He made a few mistakes in the 9th, but he also made a lot of very good pitches and just got the unlucky result.

Griffey012
07-10-2010, 07:06 PM
He jammed Howard with a good pitch in on the hands. He broke Werth's bat with a good pitch. I don't recall where the pitch was that Victorino doubled on. He made a poor pitch to Dobbs that was knee high and all over the plate. He made a few mistakes in the 9th, but he also made a lot of very good pitches and just got the unlucky result.

Thank you. Guess it is good to hear that he was making good pitches as compared to giving up rocket basehits, then a bomb. Makes it much more understandable as to why he stayed in.

Vottomatic
07-10-2010, 07:07 PM
I knew this thread would be here. This one is not dusty's fault. I couldnt imagine the fallout if dusty had pulled leake going to the 9th(and they won). Or if he had brought in someone other than cordero in the 9th(whats dusty doing bringing in whoever cordero is the closer). or put someone else in in the 10th(what hes not pitching rhodes against the 2 lefties). He did exactly what we all thought he should have done and it didnt work. should cordero still be closing probably not, but its not our money paying him.

Not me. I would have pulled Leake after his first two baserunners reached in the 9th inning.

I wouldn't have brought in Cordero at that point, because had he removed Leake after 2 baserunners........no runs would have scored at that point and we would have still lead 7-1. A non-save situation.

I would have brought in Rhodes to face a predominantly left handed Philly lineup. If he gave up some runs, it would have only been a couple and he still would have gotten 3 outs. Rhodes doesn't implode often and when he does, it isn't nearly as ugly as Cordero.

This isn't hindsight. I felt this way heading into the 9th inning.

Dusty always seems unprepared for worst case scenarios.

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 01:50 PM
I normally done post to put the hammer down but I feel the need to...your last few posts are bashing members of this site calling them names and telling them to grow up....when in fact we all need to grow up for spending so much time on a message board talking about other men.....but we are all fans of the same team....and opinions are what drives this site and are what keeps us all comming back....if we all agreed on the same thing and sat around and sang happy songs while we hugged each other then half the population would be gone.....watching people meltdown and others not is what makes this place so great to hang......so please try hard next time to refrain from bashing members who hang here night in and night out..some fans are really true fans and hold the Reds near to their heart, while others could care less what happens....what makes us all different is what makes us all the 1 community of fans....lets embrace all fans of the Reds, even if they do take 1-2 games a little to serious....LOL...:D

I went looking for Reds42 on the members list and he's no longer listed. I'm guessing he got banned.

brm7675
07-11-2010, 05:17 PM
Dusty is a horrible in game manager, anyone who watches this team and doesn't see that either doesn't understand the game or is so blinded by the "dusty love" that it's scary. He continues to put out poor thoughtout lineups, he refuses to sit players who are struggling when you have equal to or better talent on the bench. He is more worried about his releationship with his players over winning. I want a manager whose number goal is winning, not being liked by his players.

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 05:19 PM
I wish Davey Johnson were still young and fiery. He's got to be in his 70's by now.

brm7675
07-11-2010, 05:20 PM
Bold guarantee considering we havent been to the playoffs in what 15 years?

Not using this as an example, because it shouldn't have been close, but when you play as many tight games as we do, your gonna lose a lot of tight games and win a lot of tight games, we have won a lot more tight games than we have won...that means our manager has to be pushing the right late game buttons more times than not.

I have zero issue with losing tight games, like last nights game vs. Halliday. A great game that we lost, and nothing Dusty could have done probably would have changed that. My issue is when we lose games we should not. Games 1-2 vs. the phils in this series were lost due to bad management decisions, not the play on the field. That is unacceptable.:thumbdown

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 05:23 PM
I wish Davey Johnson were still young and fiery. He's got to be in his 70's by now.

He's 67 years old and an advisor for the Washington Nationals. Last managed a foreign team during some off season games in 2003.

Griffey012
07-11-2010, 05:49 PM
I have zero issue with losing tight games, like last nights game vs. Halliday. A great game that we lost, and nothing Dusty could have done probably would have changed that. My issue is when we lose games we should not. Games 1-2 vs. the phils in this series were lost due to bad management decisions, not the play on the field. That is unacceptable.:thumbdown

You can say what you want about game 1, but game 2 was not lost by play on the field? We were up 7-1! Our SP gives up 2 bloop jam shots, then a big fly. We bring in the closer for a 2 out save with a 7-5 lead, he blows it. Our All-Star reliever gets hit for a 2 run homer in the 10th to lose it.

Our offense could only muster 7 runs off 15 hits, 2 errors, and 6 walks. They were 4-14 with RISP.

Don't let your hatred for Dusty ruin the fact that not every loss is his fault. Our offense let us down, our 48 million dollar closer let us down, our All-Star relief pitcher let us down.

Our prized rookie who skipped the minors carried us pitching wise and went 3-4.

ukwazoo
07-11-2010, 05:50 PM
I hate Dusty as much as anyone here, but Game 2 was mostly choke jobs by our pitchers.