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TheBigLebowski
07-11-2010, 04:12 PM
We're in first place entering the break...depending on the outcomes of today's games, we're either 1 or 2 games in front.

This Reds team, as presently constructed, cannot win this division. Sell me all the "We Have a New Ace Coming with Edinson Volquez!~" crap you think you can move....I am not buying any of it. It's just an excuse.

Texas just acquired Cliff Lee for Justin Smoak, essentially. We took Yonder Alonso before Smoak. I would have to think we floated Alonso in front of the M's...Alonso is becoming a huge bust.

Trade Mesorasco. Trade Alsonso. Trade whatever the hell you have to trade to keep us in contention and put us in a position to win in the playoffs. It's not as though we're in this position every other year. Prospects are great but they are just prospects.....we've had our fair share of them lately.

ILoveWilly
07-11-2010, 04:19 PM
I agree completely. We need upgrades in LF, CF, and SS in some way. Whoever out there in general who has a big bat and is consistent. We need relief pitching badly, and that is one of the cheapest things to acquire come trade deadline.

The silver lining to this should be a cold slap in the face to Reds management if they actually have the cohones to make a move for a change. I want to be searching MLB Trade Rumors every day hearing about another player the Reds are trying to acquire.

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 04:24 PM
For the moment, I'm sick of Stubbs, Bruce and OCab. Starting to get sick of Gomes lately too. None of them are adding anything to the offense. Bruce and Stubbs have become K machines.

sabometrics
07-11-2010, 04:25 PM
Whatever you do Walt, just don't panic like us fans are after this sweep.

TheBigLebowski
07-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Whatever you do Walt, just don't panic like us fans are after this sweep.

No...Walt...just stand pat and watch the one opportunity we've had to make the playoffs in the past 15 years evaporate.

Don't kid yourself, my friend...we are in rarefied air here. There is no doubt whatsoever that we need to make some moves in order to stay in contention.

We didn't score the day before...we almost let a rookie lose a pefect game because we couldn't push across a single run.

We didn't score today and lost 1-0.

I think it's time to address the offense. Not counting whatever runs we may have scored Thursday, we're at least at 18 scoreless innings.

Did we even push a run across in Seattle?

Trade Mesorasco. Trade Alonso. Trade Frazier. We're going into the break up one game. We're not normally here. Do what you have to do to win THIS YEAR, Walt.

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 04:44 PM
Harang, Stubbs, Alonso, Francisco, Mesoraco, Frazier to KC for Greinke and Dejesus.

Harang comes off the books next year. I'd even throw in the $2M for the buyout.
Stubbs is making me sick with all his K's and he's overrated defensively no matter what anyone on this board says.
Alonso is position blocked.
Francisco is position blocked.
Frazier is overrated and is a throw in.
Mesoraco is the only one I'd regret trading.
Heck, throw in Maloney and LeCure.

Who else can we throw in that deal? Bruce maybe? I'm sick of him too.

I'm glad the AS break is here. This Reds team is exhausting.

Griffey012
07-11-2010, 04:51 PM
Whatever you do Walt, just don't panic like us fans are after this sweep.

I am with you. Panic is what led to "the trade."

ukwazoo
07-11-2010, 04:54 PM
I don't think anyone would take Harang in a trade. In my wildest hopes and dreams they would, but not in reality.

BigJohn
07-11-2010, 04:54 PM
Just shows that the offense had been playing way over their head in June. We outhit the Phillies again today, just can't get the runs in!

sabometrics
07-11-2010, 05:12 PM
No...Walt...just stand pat and watch the one opportunity we've had to make the playoffs in the past 15 years evaporate.

Don't kid yourself, my friend...we are in rarefied air here. There is no doubt whatsoever that we need to make some moves in order to stay in contention.

We didn't score the day before...we almost let a rookie lose a pefect game because we couldn't push across a single run.

We didn't score today and lost 1-0.

I think it's time to address the offense. Not counting whatever runs we may have scored Thursday, we're at least at 18 scoreless innings.

Did we even push a run across in Seattle?

Trade Mesorasco. Trade Alonso. Trade Frazier. We're going into the break up one game. We're not normally here. Do what you have to do to win THIS YEAR, Walt.

I didn't say "don't make any moves." I said "don't panic." You, my friend are panicking. Walt can make a deal, but he has to keep his head straight and make sure he doesn't overpay.

ILoveWilly
07-11-2010, 05:15 PM
No one is suggesting he overpays, he just needs to understand his line of "liking the team" and being fine staying where we are, isn't getting it done. I know the asking price drops for most in the next couple weeks, but the wheels have to come in motion on this to get some help in.

Kingspoint
07-11-2010, 05:35 PM
This REDS team, as presently constructed, can win this division.

However, Walt is probably looking to win the World Series. For that, he'll probably make an addition (or two) to the team over the next 7-14 days.

FlyerFanatic
07-11-2010, 05:37 PM
theres no question yonder is going to be traded at some point. as i see it, we're in first, this can be the year that puts us into the playoffs. we have no idea what other teams might do in the future, or how we'll fair in the future. package a deal using alonso as the center piece, and put us over the top for this year.

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 07:41 PM
This REDS team, as presently constructed, can win this division.

However, Walt is probably looking to win the World Series. For that, he'll probably make an addition (or two) to the team over the next 7-14 days.

Winning the division is a small victory.

The Bengals have made the playoffs twice in the last 4 to 5 years and lost both of their first games in the postseason. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I'm sure just getting to the postseason isn't exactly going to fire up the Reds fans.

And I think they're only good enough to get there. I don't see them beating either the East or West champion. We've got to many holes still.

Hey Meat
07-11-2010, 08:29 PM
theres no question yonder is going to be traded at some point. as i see it, we're in first, this can be the year that puts us into the playoffs. we have no idea what other teams might do in the future, or how we'll fair in the future. package a deal using alonso as the center piece, and put us over the top for this year.

I think you are right on here. Can't really see trading anyone that we have in the bigs. Yonder is not going to smell time at 1st, but is still a great prospect that someone else could trade for,

George Foster
07-11-2010, 10:08 PM
This REDS team, as presently constructed, can win this division.

However, Walt is probably looking to win the World Series. For that, he'll probably make an addition (or two) to the team over the next 7-14 days.

I agree we have a team that can beat St. Louis, however they have a easier second half schedule than we do.

The problem with this team is the 10 shutouts. In the playoffs, we would have big problems. The Braves, Phily, Rockies all have pitchers that can shut us down in a 5 or 7 game series.

Our problem right now is the bullpen and the inability to score off of top notch pitchers...who we WILL face in the playoffs. Our starting pitching is fine, but we have to score 2-3 runs off of a top notch pitcher. We have not done that ALL season...Seattle, St. Louis, Philly.

FlyerFanatic
07-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I agree we have a team that can beat St. Louis, however they have a easier second half schedule than we do.

The problem with this team is the 10 shutouts. In the playoffs, we would have big problems. The Braves, Phily, Rockies all have pitchers that can shut us down in a 5 or 7 game series.

Our problem right now is the bullpen and the inability to score off of top notch pitchers...who we WILL face in the playoffs. Our starting pitching is fine, but we have to score 2-3 runs off of a top notch pitcher. We have not done that ALL season...Seattle, St. Louis, Philly.

they have an easier second half? i thought the reds had the easiest 2nd half of any team in the majors?

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 10:30 PM
they have an easier second half? i thought the reds had the easiest 2nd half of any team in the majors?

The way things are going lately, an easier schedule might mean a total collapse. It's Murphy's Law right now. Everything that can go wrong is going wrong.

Krawhitham
07-11-2010, 11:19 PM
I agree completely. We need upgrades in LF, CF, and SS in some way

for Left fielders in the NL Gomes ranks

4th best in average
8th in HR
1st in RBI

just who in the hell can we get than can do better than that

We have a much better CF already on the roster

SS would be fine if Dusty gave him days off like he give Rolen

zjr1717
07-12-2010, 12:29 AM
for Left fielders in the NL Gomes ranks

4th best in average
8th in HR
1st in RBI

just who in the hell can we get than can do better than that

We have a much better CF already on the roster

SS would be fine if Dusty gave him days off like he give Rolen

We could do better though, outside of June, gomes has been pretty terrible, He OPS'd over a 1000 in that month and hasnt been much of a factor before or sense. He's OPSing 808 right now He's OBP challenged, he's a below average fielder at least. I think the Reds could do alot better than Gomes. Don't get me wrong, Jonny's a solid platoon/bench guy who can still be quite useful to the team. But the Reds can do better and could really be helped by a LF who can be decent glove, more consistent, and not so OBP challenged.

sabometrics
07-12-2010, 12:46 AM
The way things are going lately, an easier schedule might mean a total collapse. It's Murphy's Law right now. Everything that can go wrong is going wrong.

There was a lot going right with this team over the weekend. Begins and ends with the starting pitching. If the rotation continues to even be half as good as they were in Philly this series, then we'll compete all the way down the stretch. Our situational hitting cannot continue to suck THAT bad, even if it is on the downturn.

zjr1717
07-12-2010, 12:52 AM
Count me as believing that this team needs a solid starter and a bat to go anywhere in the playoffs. I think this team can make the playoffs as currently constructed, but to do anything once they get there, they'll need these two things plus possibly another bullpen arm.

They don't need Cliff Lee, but they need a guy who can at least be classified as a very good two or three starter. Leake can't be relied on late in the season, and Volquez can't be trumpeted as the savior when he's just come off surgery, it usually takes a year after his return for a guy to be completely "back" from TJ surgery. The bat can either be a full time LF or a 4 corners type guy to spell Rolen, Votto, and Bruce when there out of the lineup and platoon with Gomes. Ideally this guy would be a switch hitter but you can't always get the ideal.

redsrolen
07-12-2010, 01:22 AM
The silver lining is hopefully this shows the players,Walt, and Dusty, how bad we need to work on our hitting! We hit fine against lousy pitchers, but this shows everyone, if we are in the playoffs, just how much we need another good bat on the team and how much our guys now, need to improve! If we could get one more good bat and a differant closer, I think we can do it!!!
We have to do it now, in baseball, teams dismantel so darn fast, it can make your head spin. I feel like Walt will make a move, from what I hear he has some payback for the Cardinals!

KOBasinger
07-12-2010, 08:10 AM
Panic much people? Just 4 days ago, everybody was talking about reserving playoff tickets.

gilpdawg
07-12-2010, 08:28 AM
Harang, Stubbs, Alonso, Francisco, Mesoraco, Frazier to KC for Greinke and Dejesus.

Harang comes off the books next year. I'd even throw in the $2M for the buyout.
Stubbs is making me sick with all his K's and he's overrated defensively no matter what anyone on this board says.
Alonso is position blocked.
Francisco is position blocked.
Frazier is overrated and is a throw in.
Mesoraco is the only one I'd regret trading.
Heck, throw in Maloney and LeCure.

Who else can we throw in that deal? Bruce maybe? I'm sick of him too.

I'm glad the AS break is here. This Reds team is exhausting.
Over-react much? BTW, Greinke was scratched yesterday with a stiff shoulder.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 09:02 AM
I'm with you guys about making a move. Too bad it didn't work with Lee, nice to see that they tried though. This organization would have never done that a few years ago.

It's funny though. I come on this board a week or so ago and push for Cliff Lee and most of the responses I received were don't trade the future, this guy's good and Lee's a rental, blah, blah, blah.

And now this week it's please, please Walt make a move, the sky is falling. I know I can always go to Redszone and get a laugh.

As I stated during those posts. We can get to the playoffs with what we have. We cannot get to the World Series with what we have IMO. It doesn't have to be an overhaul, but a move or two has to be made.

I have a hard time believing that by losing Alonso, Wood, etc. in a trade would damage this organization to the degree that those who disagreed with me made it sound.

I would like to see them hold to Wood, but if you could make a trade that would put this team over the top - by all means - do it. Keeping him would not prevent me from pulling the trigger.

Some detractors would say that Oswalt or Greinke, or DeJesus, etc. doesn't guaratee that the Reds will get to the World Series and that would be true. But, on the flip side, the proponents of holding onto the prospects can't guarantee that they will bring the Reds success either.

You have a legitimate chance to win this season, we have no idea what 2011, 12, 13 or the future might hold. Go for the win now.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:10 AM
We're in first place entering the break...depending on the outcomes of today's games, we're either 1 or 2 games in front.

This Reds team, as presently constructed, cannot win this division. Sell me all the "We Have a New Ace Coming with Edinson Volquez!~" crap you think you can move....I am not buying any of it. It's just an excuse.

Texas just acquired Cliff Lee for Justin Smoak, essentially. We took Yonder Alonso before Smoak. I would have to think we floated Alonso in front of the M's...Alonso is becoming a huge bust.

Trade Mesorasco. Trade Alsonso. Trade whatever the hell you have to trade to keep us in contention and put us in a position to win in the playoffs. It's not as though we're in this position every other year. Prospects are great but they are just prospects.....we've had our fair share of them lately.

Trade for what? What do you think this team needs to add to take that next step. :confused:

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:12 AM
I agree completely. We need upgrades in LF, CF, and SS in some way. Whoever out there in general who has a big bat and is consistent. We need relief pitching badly, and that is one of the cheapest things to acquire come trade deadline.

The silver lining to this should be a cold slap in the face to Reds management if they actually have the cohones to make a move for a change. I want to be searching MLB Trade Rumors every day hearing about another player the Reds are trying to acquire.

We have Chris Heisey who can play LF or CF. You are not going to trade for a SS when you just forked out cash for Orlando. Bank on it here, the Reds will NOT make any major trades.:thumbup:

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:13 AM
No...Walt...just stand pat and watch the one opportunity we've had to make the playoffs in the past 15 years evaporate.

Don't kid yourself, my friend...we are in rarefied air here. There is no doubt whatsoever that we need to make some moves in order to stay in contention.

We didn't score the day before...we almost let a rookie lose a pefect game because we couldn't push across a single run.

We didn't score today and lost 1-0.

I think it's time to address the offense. Not counting whatever runs we may have scored Thursday, we're at least at 18 scoreless innings.

Did we even push a run across in Seattle?

Trade Mesorasco. Trade Alonso. Trade Frazier. We're going into the break up one game. We're not normally here. Do what you have to do to win THIS YEAR, Walt.

I agree Walt NEEDS to make a move, that move is Fire Dusty Baker and bring in a manager whom can put the right pieces that we already have in place and get the job done. We have the parts, we just don't have the leadership.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Harang, Stubbs, Alonso, Francisco, Mesoraco, Frazier to KC for Greinke and Dejesus.

Harang comes off the books next year. I'd even throw in the $2M for the buyout.
Stubbs is making me sick with all his K's and he's overrated defensively no matter what anyone on this board says.
Alonso is position blocked.
Francisco is position blocked.
Frazier is overrated and is a throw in.
Mesoraco is the only one I'd regret trading.
Heck, throw in Maloney and LeCure.

Who else can we throw in that deal? Bruce maybe? I'm sick of him too.

I'm glad the AS break is here. This Reds team is exhausting.

WALT..JUST SAY NO TO ANYTHING ALONG THIS LINES...:thumbdown

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:24 AM
Just shows that the offense had been playing way over their head in June. We outhit the Phillies again today, just can't get the runs in!

We were facing back to back great pitchers...:cool:

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:26 AM
Winning the division is a small victory.

The Bengals have made the playoffs twice in the last 4 to 5 years and lost both of their first games in the postseason. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I'm sure just getting to the postseason isn't exactly going to fire up the Reds fans.

And I think they're only good enough to get there. I don't see them beating either the East or West champion. We've got to many holes still.

I disagree, we are taking baby steps here. Look what a playoff appearance did in Brewer land, pre playoff appearance average ticket sales, since...BOOM.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:27 AM
We've got to many holes still.

What holes outside of a shoddy manager?

brm7675
07-12-2010, 11:29 AM
Count me as believing that this team needs a solid starter and a bat to go anywhere in the playoffs. I think this team can make the playoffs as currently constructed, but to do anything once they get there, they'll need these two things plus possibly another bullpen arm.

They don't need Cliff Lee, but they need a guy who can at least be classified as a very good two or three starter. Leake can't be relied on late in the season, and Volquez can't be trumpeted as the savior when he's just come off surgery, it usually takes a year after his return for a guy to be completely "back" from TJ surgery. The bat can either be a full time LF or a 4 corners type guy to spell Rolen, Votto, and Bruce when there out of the lineup and platoon with Gomes. Ideally this guy would be a switch hitter but you can't always get the ideal.

Did you NOT just watch the road trip? How could the starters pitched better? Really please explain to me how the starters could have done better?

Girevik
07-12-2010, 12:01 PM
I want to see the Reds make a move to help the team now....I agree it would be worth it to move some of the prospects to land a guy to help now. The problem is that it takes two teams (at least) to make a deal, and standing pat is better than trading away young talent for guys that are only marginally better than what you have just to "do something".

I've not heard a lot of names out there as being available that would be a big boost to the team. Yeah, it bites that Lee didn't come to Cincy, but now that's off the table what do you do? The only name out there I'd really want to trade for would be Greinke, and I don't think he's really on the market....that's wishful thinking.

demas863
07-12-2010, 12:12 PM
I don't think anyone would take Harang in a trade. In my wildest hopes and dreams they would, but not in reality.

Going to a big ballpark would do wonders for him.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 12:16 PM
I want to see the Reds make a move to help the team now....I agree it would be worth it to move some of the prospects to land a guy to help now. The problem is that it takes two teams (at least) to make a deal, and standing pat is better than trading away young talent for guys that are only marginally better than what you have just to "do something".

I've not heard a lot of names out there as being available that would be a big boost to the team. Yeah, it bites that Lee didn't come to Cincy, but now that's off the table what do you do? The only name out there I'd really want to trade for would be Greinke, and I don't think he's really on the market....that's wishful thinking.

Who? I think people want to see Walt make a move just to say, "hey walt made a move". I mean you want to see us get a guy who can help us now. Help us how, where, whom?

demas863
07-12-2010, 12:20 PM
I agree Walt NEEDS to make a move, that move is Fire Dusty Baker and bring in a manager whom can put the right pieces that we already have in place and get the job done. We have the parts, we just don't have the leadership.

Two chances this happens - "zero and none." But he's gone in 2011. Walt, as GM, has the right to have his own guy - and that guy appears to be Joe Morgan.

Girevik
07-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Who? I think people want to see Walt make a move just to say, "hey walt made a move". I mean you want to see us get a guy who can help us now. Help us how, where, whom?

That's pretty much my point. I'm not sure that guy is out there right now, and if that's the case then standing pat is better than making a move just so you're "doing something".

brm7675
07-12-2010, 12:26 PM
Two chances this happens - "zero and none." But he's gone in 2011. Walt, as GM, has the right to have his own guy - and that guy appears to be Joe Morgan.

never happen, Joe has said a number of times he does not want to manage as it is to time consuming and would eliminate him from doing other things he likes. Nope if this team even sniffs playoffs then Dusty is back for another 2-3 year stint, that's why I say be bold now and make the move...

markymark69
07-12-2010, 01:18 PM
Who? I think people want to see Walt make a move just to say, "hey walt made a move". I mean you want to see us get a guy who can help us now. Help us how, where, whom?

brm. I ask you the same question in regards to your wanting to can Baker. Who replaces him at this stage of the season that would do any better? He makes some questionable moves to say the least. So would Pete Mackanin, so does Lou Piniella, so does Tony (Abner Doubleday consulted me on the rules of baseball) LaRussa and so on.

It's a part of the job. We aren't always privy to all the info that Dusty has when he makes a decision. Sometimes he pushes the right button, sometimes he doesn't. Plus, who would want to come and manage this team if they fired the skipper while the team was in first place?

brm7675
07-12-2010, 01:24 PM
brm. I ask you the same question in regards to your wanting to can Baker. Who replaces him at this stage of the season that would do any better? He makes some questionable moves to say the least. So would Pete Mackanin, so does Lou Piniella, so does Tony (Abner Doubleday consulted me on the rules of baseball) LaRussa and so on.

It's a part of the job. We aren't always privy to all the info that Dusty has when he makes a decision. Sometimes he pushes the right button, sometimes he doesn't. Plus, who would want to come and manage this team if they fired the skipper while the team was in first place?

Buck Showalter..

markymark69
07-12-2010, 01:32 PM
Buck Showalter..

Well, I'll give you credit. You gave me a name. He is about to sign with Orioles though. The pre-game shows would make for interesting radio as Marty can't stand Showalter.

I still think the Reds would hurt themselves by firing the manager while being in first place - it would be a tough, tough sell to get somebody that is not Rick Sweet or a current coach, IMO.

Lockdwn11
07-12-2010, 01:50 PM
Come on guys do you think that maybe just maybe the fact that they played 17 straight days and was a little worn down played a part in this? This team has lost 4 in a row before only to bounce right back and I'm sure they will again.

Does something need to change sure they do but this is the same team that just a week ago most of you was singing the Reds praises. Now one week later you are acting like the ship is sinking. Now is not the time to jump ship it is a long season full of ups and downs. Right now the team is in 1st place at the All-Star break and that is about all you could hope for.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Come on guys do you think that maybe just maybe the fact that they played 17 straight days and was a little worn down played a part in this? This team has lost 4 in a row before only to bounce right back and I'm sure they will again.

Does something need to change sure they do but this is the same team that just a week ago most of you was singing the Reds praises. Now one week later you are acting like the ship is sinking. Now is not the time to jump ship it is a long season full of ups and downs. Right now the team is in 1st place at the All-Star break and that is about all you could hope for.

Losing is one thing, giving the game away due to poor manager decisions is another. We got beat in games 3 and 4, we gave away games 1 and 2. That is what is unacceptable, we are giving away WAY to many games due to bad lineups and bad in game decisinos.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Losing is one thing, giving the game away due to poor manager decisions is another. We got beat in games 3 and 4, we gave away games 1 and 2. That is what is unacceptable, we are giving away WAY to many games due to bad lineups and bad in game decisinos.

Giving away games? How do you get that? He stayed with Leake on Friday because he didn't trust the bullpen and then when he had to go to the bullpen, they faltered. That's not giving it away. He has who he has in the bullpen, at some point, they have to come through.

How did Dusty give away Saturday or yesterday's game? Those games could have gone either way, if they get situational hitting and execution. Dusty really could not do a whole lot about either.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 02:33 PM
Giving away games? How do you get that? He stayed with Leake on Friday because he didn't trust the bullpen and then when he had to go to the bullpen, they faltered. That's not giving it away. He has who he has in the bullpen, at some point, they have to come through.

How did Dusty give away Saturday or yesterday's game? Those games could have gone either way, if they get situational hitting and execution. Dusty really could not do a whole lot about either.

No he stayed with leake because he wanted to give the kid "a chance" for his first major league complete game. The bullpen has been fine as of late, you start the 9th with Logan and go from there. The other game we gave away was Thursday's game and was due to poor use of the bench because come the late innings and not having a backup catcher, they had to let the RP Smith hit because they couldn't use Janish.

Girevik
07-12-2010, 02:44 PM
And if Baker had pulled him and the pen blew it, the cry would be "why to you take a a guy who's pitching that well and turn it over to a pen who's struggled all year".

cbowen2112
07-12-2010, 02:46 PM
And if Baker had pulled him and the pen blew it, the cry would be "why to you take a a guy who's pitching that well and turn it over to a pen who's struggled all year".

So agreed on this one.

The Phillies just as a team has been there and done that more than the Reds. The Reds know what they need to work on now. Let's just hope they do that. Dusty gets bashed when we lose, but no love for being in first in our division.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 02:52 PM
And if Baker had pulled him and the pen blew it, the cry would be "why to you take a a guy who's pitching that well and turn it over to a pen who's struggled all year".


Then it's the players fault. The point is that it wasn't Dusty's top priority to win that game, it was to see if the kid could get his first complete game. Plus lets not forget Leake is on a innings count, he should have pulled in the 7th or 8th with that kind of lead. Again BAD managing.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 02:53 PM
So agreed on this one.

The Phillies just as a team has been there and done that more than the Reds. The Reds know what they need to work on now. Let's just hope they do that. Dusty gets bashed when we lose, but no love for being in first in our division.

They are in first place in spite of him, not because of him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

markymark69
07-12-2010, 02:59 PM
No he stayed with leake because he wanted to give the kid "a chance" for his first major league complete game. The bullpen has been fine as of late, you start the 9th with Logan and go from there. The other game we gave away was Thursday's game and was due to poor use of the bench because come the late innings and not having a backup catcher, they had to let the RP Smith hit because they couldn't use Janish.

What's wrong with giving Leake a chance. He probably gave the Reds the best chance to win and he only had thrown 83 pitches at that point. It didn't work that time. You know what you're right it was Dusty. I suppose 13 men left on base had nothing to do with it.

He was protecting the bench in the case, because they were one player short with Hernandez not being able to play, Janish was the emergency catcher. at that point, you have no idea how long the game is going to go, if you use Janish there and do not win the game and it goes on to later innings, you have no catcher and a relief pitcher has to end up batting anyway. It was not Dusty's fault that Hernandez was not placed on the DL prior to that game.

And if Smith hits the ball two feet farther, the take the lead and maybe win the game. Granted, Baker would have got lucky with that one. Of course, Buck Showalter would have made the right move. He's had a boatload of success as a manager.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Then it's the players fault. The point is that it wasn't Dusty's top priority to win that game, it was to see if the kid could get his first complete game. Plus lets not forget Leake is on a innings count, he should have pulled in the 7th or 8th with that kind of lead. Again BAD managing.

I'm sure those 17 extra pitches that he threw with at least eight days of rest coming between his next start will ruin him.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:05 PM
They are in first place in spite of him, not because of him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

The players got together and made the line-up changes that sparked this team to have a huge May and propel them to where they are. No, that's not how it works. Dusty did that - he should get the credit, at least for that.

And without that, most likely the Reds are not where they are.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:05 PM
What's wrong with giving Leake a chance. He probably gave the Reds the best chance to win and he only had thrown 83 pitches at that point. It didn't work that time. You know what you're right it was Dusty. I suppose 13 men left on base had nothing to do with it.

He was protecting the bench in the case, because they were one player short with Hernandez not being able to play, Janish was the emergency catcher. at that point, you have no idea how long the game is going to go, if you use Janish there and do not win the game and it goes on to later innings, you have no catcher and a relief pitcher has to end up batting anyway. It was not Dusty's fault that Hernandez was not placed on the DL prior to that game.

And if Smith hits the ball two feet farther, the take the lead and maybe win the game. Granted, Baker would have got lucky with that one. Of course, Buck Showalter would have made the right move. He's had a boatload of success as a manager.

Reds were leading 7-1 in game two going into the 9th. You bring in Logan, you bring in Bray, you bring in Rhodes, after giving away game 1 due to not DL Hernandez and calling up Hannigan and knowing you are facing Halliday and Hamles the next two days, YOU WIN THIS GAME.

Yes it was Dusty's fault, he should have gotten Walt and said, I can't go with one catcher.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm sure those 17 extra pitches that he threw with at least eight days of rest coming between his next start will ruin him.

Why risk it? The game was in hand, he had pitched a great game, done great at the plate. Let the bullpen do what they are paid to do and have done pretty dam well so far on the road trip. See that is why they have managers, to make these decisions...

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:09 PM
The players got together and made the line-up changes that sparked this team to have a huge May and propel them to where they are. No, that's not how it works. Dusty did that - he should get the credit, at least for that.

And without that, most likely the Reds are not where they are.


OMG, how long did he bat Stubbs in leadoff when it was clear it wasn't working? how long did he keep Orlando there when you could see it wasn't working and HE WAS FRIGGIN HURT? Why is Orlando still out there day in and day out when he isn't producing? Why is Heisey NOT getting more playing time when you see Gomes is struggling, Stubbs is struggling? Why wasn't a replacment for Ramon brought up as soon as he got hurt? Why didn't Dusty make that move? They are winning in spite of, not because of....

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:13 PM
Reds were leading 7-1 in game two going into the 9th. You bring in Logan, you bring in Bray, you bring in Rhodes, after giving away game 1 due to not DL Hernandez and calling up Hannigan and knowing you are facing Halliday and Hamles the next two days, YOU WIN THIS GAME.

Yes it was Dusty's fault, he should have gotten Walt and said, I can't go with one catcher.

First of all, you don't know if he talked to Walt about it and what was said. He could have made the very same point that you did. Perhaps they felt Hanigan wasn't ready and tried to get one more day without him? He didn't look like he was ready to hit on Saturday. That decision still falls to the GM, not the field manager.

I still think Dusty thought Leake, with only 83 pitches, was his best shot to win that game. That was a decision that obviously didn't work. You could argue that, but if Cordero does his job they still win that game. They were leading 7-5 with nobody on base when he pulled Leake from the game with only 100 pitches. Cordero is the closer and he only had to get two outs, that's a sound move.

Another point, why use three pitchers if you can by with one. He has to monitor the bullpen as well.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:19 PM
OMG, how long did he bat Stubbs in leadoff when it was clear it wasn't working? how long did he keep Orlando there when you could see it wasn't working and HE WAS FRIGGIN HURT? Why is Orlando still out there day in and day out when he isn't producing? Why is Heisey NOT getting more playing time when you see Gomes is struggling, Stubbs is struggling? Why wasn't a replacment for Ramon brought up as soon as he got hurt? Why didn't Dusty make that move? They are winning in spite of, not because of....

He still made the moves and it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heisey played quite a bit in Philly. He even gave Nix a try.


As far as Hernandez - I will write it slow and in English this time. Roster decisions are not Dusty's call. It's Jocketty's.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:24 PM
First of all, you don't know if he talked to Walt about it and what was said. He could have made the very same point that you did. Perhaps they felt Hanigan wasn't ready and tried to get one more day without him? He didn't look like he was ready to hit on Saturday. That decision still falls to the GM, not the field manager.

I still think Dusty thought Leake, with only 83 pitches, was his best shot to win that game. That was a decision that obviously didn't work. You could argue that, but if Cordero does his job they still win that game. They were leading 7-5 with nobody on base when he pulled Leake from the game with only 100 pitches. Cordero is the closer and he only had to get two outs, that's a sound move.

Another point, why use three pitchers if you can by with one. He has to monitor the bullpen as well.

Wow where to start:

If Walt was the reason we played a man down in Game one of the Phils series that Walt is an idiot and needs a baseball bat against the head. you don't play a man down unless he is hurt during the game. They KNEW Ramon couldn't go, sorry no excuse.

Fine Let leake start the ninth, but after the first baserunner gets on he is gone. you have the ASB coming up, pitchers will get rest then.

Another Dusty/Walt gaff, this view that because Co-Co is your paid closer, then he must be your closer. Has anyone seen Arthur Rhodes numbers this season? i mean really?

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:26 PM
He still made the moves and it worked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heisey played quite a bit in Philly. He even gave Nix a try.


As far as Hernandez - I will write it slow and in English this time. Roster decisions are not Dusty's call. It's Jocketty's.

How many games were lost to his delay in making these moves? Wow a bit in Philly, how about this, he see's action in 3 games per week, giving each OF a day off. As for the roster issue, whomever view it was that it was okay to play a man down should be hit upside the head with a frying pan and put out to pasture....:thumbdown

Lockdwn11
07-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Losing is one thing, giving the game away due to poor manager decisions is another. We got beat in games 3 and 4, we gave away games 1 and 2. That is what is unacceptable, we are giving away WAY to many games due to bad lineups and bad in game decisinos.

That horse is dead.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:32 PM
Wow where to start:

If Walt was the reason we played a man down in Game one of the Phils series that Walt is an idiot and needs a baseball bat against the head. you don't play a man down unless he is hurt during the game. They KNEW Ramon couldn't go, sorry no excuse.

Fine Let leake start the ninth, but after the first baserunner gets on he is gone. you have the ASB coming up, pitchers will get rest then.

Another Dusty/Walt gaff, this view that because Co-Co is your paid closer, then he must be your closer. Has anyone seen Arthur Rhodes numbers this season? i mean really?

You made the claim that it was Dusty' decision to play a man down. I'm saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that's a smart move. Perhaps based on data (something you and I do not have) they felt that Hanigan needed more time on his rehab. Perhaps the reports on Hernandez indicated that he wasn't hurt as bad as he actually was. I don't know and neither do you. My point is - Roster construction is on the GM, not the manager. You blamed the manager.

I can agree with you on starting Leake and then if a man gets on, pull him. Fine. Leaving him in still doesn't necessarily make it a bad move. They still led when he left the game.

Oh and by the way, Rhodes gave up the two-run home run in the bottom of the 10th that lost the game.

cbowen2112
07-12-2010, 03:34 PM
They are in first place in spite of him, not because of him. HUGE DIFFERENCE

Man, you really think this?

Lockdwn11
07-12-2010, 03:37 PM
You made the claim that it was Dusty' decision to play a man down. I'm saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that's a smart move. Perhaps based on data (something you and I do not have) they felt that Hanigan needed more time on his rehab. Perhaps the reports on Hernandez indicated that he wasn't hurt as bad as he actually was. I don't know and neither do you. My point is - Roster construction is on the GM, not the manager. You blamed the manager.

I can agree with you on starting Leake and then if a man gets on, pull him. Fine. Leaving him in still doesn't necessarily make it a bad move. They still led when he left the game.

Oh and by the way, Rhodes gave up the two-run home run in the bottom of the 10th that lost the game.

You didn't know check BRM post history he blames Dusty Baker for everything including roster moves. As a matter of fact 90% of this posts are about Dusty Baker.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:39 PM
Bottom line is they are winning and in first place. The players should get most of the credit. Changing managers at this point would be foolish and detrimental, IMO.

Why would any manager worth his salt come to Cincinnati when they fired their manager after the team was in first place and had been there for a good portion of the season?

I got carried away in my defense of Dusty. I just get so tired of all the Dusty bashing. It's old, it's tired and really not necssary.

I would rather they win and keep Dusty then lose, fire Dusty and then we start the process of the minor league or the buddy of the GM, or the bench coach becoming the manager all over again. Because I truly believe that's what will happen.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:40 PM
You made the claim that it was Dusty' decision to play a man down. I'm saying it wasn't. I'm not saying that's a smart move. Perhaps based on data (something you and I do not have) they felt that Hanigan needed more time on his rehab. Perhaps the reports on Hernandez indicated that he wasn't hurt as bad as he actually was. I don't know and neither do you. My point is - Roster construction is on the GM, not the manager. You blamed the manager.

I can agree with you on starting Leake and then if a man gets on, pull him. Fine. Leaving him in still doesn't necessarily make it a bad move. They still led when he left the game.

Oh and by the way, Rhodes gave up the two-run home run in the bottom of the 10th that lost the game.

One day? He needed 1 more day of rehab? Face it our "managment" team screwed up and cost us possibly a win by doing so. In a tight race, with a sub average manager, you can't handicap yourself like that.

Yes I blame Dusty, if he wasn't bright enough or strong enough to get Walt to DL Ramon when he KNEW he couldn't play, the Dusty is not a good manager. A good manager gets that move made. Yes Rhodes did, facing a pretty good hitter, had he come in during the 9th he would not have faced Howard and I am willing to bet probably would have had done better. Lets remember it wasn't their studs who tied the game, it was bench and PH players who did that. I will take Rhodes against them and coming out on top more times then not.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:40 PM
Man, you really think this?

yep, just look at the facts.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:42 PM
You didn't know check BRM post history he blames Dusty Baker for everything including roster moves. As a matter of fact 90% of this posts are about Dusty Baker.

Mr. Truman said it best...The buck stops here. He is the manager, it is his job to run the team. It's not being run at peak performance because of him. Walt got him the players and right now he is not maximizing their talent, because if he was we would be eaisly 12-15 games over .500 and 5-6 games ahead of the Cards. Not 8 games over and 1 game on top of the Cards.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:43 PM
One day? He needed 1 more day of rehab? Face it our "managment" team screwed up and cost us possibly a win by doing so. In a tight race, with a sub average manager, you can't handicap yourself like that.

Yes I blame Dusty, if he wasn't bright enough or strong enough to get Walt to DL Ramon when he KNEW he couldn't play, the Dusty is not a good manager. A good manager gets that move made


So, you can tell your boss what to do and he does it? Lucky you.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Why would any manager worth his salt come to Cincinnati when they fired their manager after the team was in first place and had been there for a good portion of the season?



Because any good manager would see the incredible talent this team/organization has right now and would jump at that chance to lead this team. People want Walt to do something that will increase the chances that this team will make the playoffs, my answer is to turn the keys of this team over to Buck Showalter and watch them do it.:thumbup:

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Mr. Truman said it best...The buck stops here. He is the manager, it is his job to run the team. It's not being run at peak performance because of him. Walt got him the players and right now he is not maximizing their talent, because if he was we would be eaisly 12-15 games over .500 and 5-6 games ahead of the Cards. Not 8 games over and 1 game on top of the Cards.

Eight games over .500 (first place in the division, after nine straight losing seasons with pre-season predictions of third place at best, most worse than that. Yeah, let's dump that bum. Bring on the Rick Sweet!!!!!

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Because any good manager would see the incredible talent this team/organization has right now and would jump at that chance to lead this team. People want Walt to do something that will increase the chances that this team will make the playoffs, my answer is to turn the keys of this team over to Buck Showalter and watch them do it.:thumbup:

What has he done to earn this lofty praise? I would be willing to bet that he wouldn't come if they fired a manager when the team was in first place. Besides he's going to be in Baltimore very soon, according to reports.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:50 PM
Eight games over .500 (first place in the division, after nine straight losing seasons with pre-season predictions of third place at best, most worse than that. Yeah, let's dump that bum. Bring on the Rick Sweet!!!!!

Just say NO to the Sweet, you bring in someone with passion and a background from a winning organization to put some fire into these guys. Watch how quick Brandon phillips finds himself on the bench for 1 game for dogging it like he does from time to time. Dusty has no passion, no drive (unless it's to find another tooth pick to chew on) to get this team to the next step. It's sad how people are 'satisfied' with 8 games over .500.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:51 PM
What has he done to earn this lofty praise? I would be willing to bet that he wouldn't come if they fired a manager when the team was in first place. Besides he's going to be in Baltimore very soon, according to reports.


Hmm lets see Baltimore with poor talent and a poor farm system or the Reds with a good ML roster and some really good young talent? Which do you think he would take?

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:53 PM
Just say NO to the Sweet, you bring in someone with passion and a background from a winning organization to put some fire into these guys. Watch how quick Brandon phillips finds himself on the bench for 1 game for dogging it like he does from time to time. Dusty has no passion, no drive (unless it's to find another tooth pick to chew on) to get this team to the next step. It's sad how people are 'satisfied' with 8 games over .500.

I'm satisfied with first place and that's happens to be where the Reds are right now. If they stay in first place I don't care if they are 82-80.

You fire Dusty now and Sweet or someone else in the organization is who will get.

Phillips really dogged it when he ran that catcher over.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm satisfied with first place and that's happens to be where the Reds are right now. If they stay in first place I don't care if they are 82-80.

You fire Dusty now and Sweet or someone else in the organization is who will get.

Phillips really dogged it when he ran that catcher over.

If my options are Dusty or somone in the organization then yes you stay with Dusty, but again I am asking Walt to man up, make a bold move that will launch this team for the next 4-5 years into the upper groupings in baseball. And yes Phillips dogs it at times...

markymark69
07-12-2010, 03:58 PM
Hmm lets see Baltimore with poor talent and a poor farm system or the Reds with a good ML roster and some really good young talent? Which do you think he would take?

If I'm Showalter and I see that the Reds fired Baker after being in first place, that would be a big red flag. Why go to a place where first place wasn't good enough.

Since Jocketty and Castellini are not going to take your advice and pay Baker the rest of his $3 million to go away - he's not going anywhere and http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/orioles-showalter-close-to-terms.html

markymark69
07-12-2010, 04:01 PM
[QUOTE=brm7675;2157137 And yes Phillips dogs it at times...[/QUOTE]

Not saying that he hasn't in the past. He was talked to about it and I believe they sat him down once. It did not go unchecked. That's been a while ago as well, he's been playing hard of late.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 04:02 PM
If I'm Showalter and I see that the Reds fired Baker after being in first place, that would be a big red flag. Why go to a place where first place wasn't good enough.

Since Jocketty and Castellini are not going to take your advice and pay Baker the rest of his $3 million to go away - he's not going anywhere and http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/orioles-showalter-close-to-terms.html


It would tell me that yes we are in first, but we believe we should be better, and that is what I would want to see. It's easy to fire a manager when the team stinks, it takes guts to make the move when your team has a winning record, but isn't producing like it can.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 04:03 PM
Not saying that he hasn't in the past. He was talked to about it and I believe they sat him down once. It did not go unchecked. That's been a while ago as well, he's been playing hard of late.

Like the past few weeks sure, but Phillips history says otherwise and I don't ever remember him being benched for an entire game like Rameiz was in Flordia.

markymark69
07-12-2010, 04:25 PM
It would tell me that yes we are in first, but we believe we should be better, and that is what I would want to see. It's easy to fire a manager when the team stinks, it takes guts to make the move when your team has a winning record, but isn't producing like it can.

I would say, based on the predictions and the expectations, they have exceeded their production. Plus, how could you be better than first place at this point?

If you were told on Opening Day that the Reds would be eight games over .500 and in first place at the All-Star Break - tell me you wouldn't have taken it and ran.

I did not see one publication in the pre-season that had the Reds anywhere near the playoffs. Yet, they are at the top in the NL Central at the All-Star break. You're right - who would want that - fire Dusty, do it now.

I'm sure glad the Reds aren't having a losing season, or maybe it would be good, Dusty would be gone and we could nit-pick and bellyache the new manager's decisions and beg for them to be fired and make jokes about Castellini and Jocketty, and rejoice because he would be fired. That would be much more fun.

How many times has a first place team fired its manager during the season? Billy Martin quit once, but I'm not sure I remember it ever happening and if it has, it hasn't happened alot and the reason is - it's not good business.

BLEEDS
07-12-2010, 09:09 PM
I am with you. Panic is what led to "the trade."

What "trade" are you speaking of?

Surely not the one where we traded Lopez and Kearns for those decent middle relievers?!?! That is SO tired of an analogy. We gave up crap for crap+ some. NOBODY won that trade. That doesn't make it bad, just didn't work out, at least we TRIED to make a move for something we NEEDED for our excessl

At the time both Lopez and Kearns were over-hyped and playing over their heads, they sucked Royal D the rest of their careers. We definitely SOLD HIGH on them. Lopez had a good bounce-back year, but he's a butcher at SS.
Sure some of those middle relievers didn't end up working out, but we still have Bray who is still a valuable lefty.

We were LOADED in the OF at the time, and Lopez was a good trading chip, he bottomed out soon after.

We NEEDED relievers, and we made a move. We lost NOTHING of value for it, and even if we did, we traded from EXCESS to get it.

I don't care if Alonso becomes an all-star (DH), if we traded him for pitching and win in the playoffs let alone sniff Pennant, it's all worth it. Alonso will NEVER wear a Reds Uniform as long as we have Joey Votto on this team, and he should be MVP-caliber for the next ten years!

PEACE

-BLEEDS