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savafan
07-11-2010, 08:16 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/beinfest-marlins-open-to-everything.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

corkedbat
07-11-2010, 08:30 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/beinfest-marlins-open-to-everything.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Chapman, Volquez or Cueto might be attractive acquisitions in south Florida. If the Marlins would bite, would you include one in a deal for Ramirez (especially if there was another prospects-for-Oswalt, Haren or Carmona deal)?

The Operator
07-11-2010, 08:37 PM
I don't want any part of Hanley Ramirez.

Call me old school, but that guy's a cancer.

Ron Madden
07-11-2010, 08:43 PM
I don't want any part of Hanley Ramirez.

Call me old school, but that guy's a cancer.

I'm not sure I'd trade Cueto or Volquez for him but I'd love to have Hanley Ramirez in a Cincinnati uniform.

Reds/Flyers Fan
07-11-2010, 08:43 PM
I'd drive to South Florida to help Ramirez pack for Cincinnati.

He would fit into this lineup perfectly.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2010, 08:45 PM
Ramirez and Johnson...get it done Walt! ;)

mdccclxix
07-11-2010, 08:55 PM
Ramirez and Johnson...get it done Walt! ;)

This is funny...I wonder what it would actually take? Just for fun:

Chapman
Cueto
Alonso
Mesoraco
Cozart
Frazier
Wood

Wouldn't it be worth it though?

Redsfan320
07-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I would trade for Han-Ram, but tell him if there's any clubhouse problems, hustle problems, or other antics whatsoever, he gets the DFA boot. And then I'd follow through if neccesary.

320

Redsfan320
07-11-2010, 09:01 PM
^^
On 2nd thought, I doubt Ramirez would care if the Reds DFAd him. There would be plenty of teams willing to pick him up, so now I'm not sure what I'd do.

320

corkedbat
07-11-2010, 09:01 PM
Ramirez and Johnson...get it done Walt! ;)

Would you do...

Chapman
Francisco
Duran
Lecure
Fisher
Cozart/Rojas

...for both?

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2010, 09:04 PM
Would you do...

Chapman
Francisco
Duran
Lecure
Fisher
Cozart/Rojas

...for both?

I don't think that package would get it done, but if so, then absolutely. That would be a steal for the Reds.

I would think the package needed would be more like Alonso, Wood, Chapman, Mesoraco and a couple other players might get it done.

CTA513
07-11-2010, 09:07 PM
Would you do...

Chapman
Francisco
Duran
Lecure
Fisher
Cozart/Rojas

...for both?

I would but the Marlins would want more in return.

Playadlc
07-11-2010, 09:07 PM
Would you do...

Chapman
Francisco
Duran
Lecure
Fisher
Cozart/Rojas

...for both?

Yes and I wouldn't think twice about it. I would probably even throw in Alonso. The thought of adding a potential Cy Young winner this year and the best SS in the game makes me salivate.

VR
07-11-2010, 09:32 PM
I'd do Cueto/ Alonso and Francisco their way without hesitation.

membengal
07-11-2010, 09:59 PM
You could get Florida's attention with a package headlined by Chapman/Alonso, recently and not-so-recently Cuban imports, something which may help sell an extra ticket or two in Florida.

I am less worried about Hanley's antics than a bunch of you. Dusty is probably the perfect manager for a guy like Ramirez, and Scott Rolen plays on this team, so, yeah, not concerned.

If they could pry Hanley and drop him in the 2-spot behind Phillips and ahead of Votto, I would be close to saying print playoff tickets.

Chapman, Alonso, Francisco, and someone from A of their choosing for Hanley.

And I wouldn't think twice about it.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:03 PM
Ramirez is an abysmal fielder.

Get Johnson.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:04 PM
This team employs Orlando Cabrera and his "range". Color me unconcerned about Ramirez's fielding issues relative to what we already have here and far more stoked about the difference his bat could make in helping this team sustain its first half offense, not to mention carry it into 2011...

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:06 PM
This team employs Orlando Cabrera and his "range". Color me unconcerned about Ramirez's fielding issues relative to what we already have here and far more stoked about the difference his bat could make in helping this team sustain its first half offense, not to mention carry it into 2011...


But you're talking about emptying the prospect cupboard for a one-dimensional bat. Team's going to need a vet starter next year.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:09 PM
Re-sign Bronson Arroyo. Vet starter.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:10 PM
Hope the Tigers fall out contention and grab Damon if you want a bat. Would cost next to nothing.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:11 PM
The bat I want is at SS. If Hanley is available, it is a very Walt thing to do to go get him.

Anyone, how do I find current WARs? What is Hanley vs. O-Cab?

ETA: They prob don't need Alonso, given Sanchez and Logan Morrison. Send Chapman/Cozart/Francisco/Mes for Hanley.

Then deal Alonso for a vet arm if need be.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:13 PM
When Rolen leaves after next year, he would benefit from a move to 3rd. He ain't no SS.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:15 PM
So then Rolen's replacement is in-house. I don't see the issue.

Redsfan320
07-11-2010, 10:16 PM
I know nothing about WAR except what it stands for, however:

Hanley this year: 2.1
Hanley career (6 seasons): 27.6
O-Cab this year: -0.2
O-Cab career (14 seasons): 18.0

Baseball Reference, my friend.

320

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:17 PM
So then Rolen's replacement is in-house. I don't see the issue.

It's not an issue. Just thinking out loud. I'd be fine getting Ramirez, but I wouldn't clear the farm for just a bat. No need. They got an offense-shifting bat in Rolen for a bunch of garbage.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:17 PM
I know nothing about WAR except what it stands for, however:

Hanley this year: 2.1
Hanley career (6 seasons): 27.6
O-Cab this year: -0.2
O-Cab career (14 seasons): 18.0

320

Thanks very much, 320. That's what I was curious about.

Marc D
07-11-2010, 10:18 PM
What is one dimensional about Hanley Ramirez's bat? He has a career line of .314/.385/.525/.910. Abysmal is what we currently have at SS, not Ramirez.

BTW, not that it is likely to happen but I would absolutely empty the farm to bring back Ramirez and Johnson. There would be no untouchables.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:18 PM
It's not an issue. Just thinking out loud. I'd be fine getting Ramirez, but I wouldn't clear the farm for just a bat. No need. They got an offense-shifting bat in Rolen for a bunch of garbage.

A bat like Hanley entering his prime requires more. And this team does have a need for more offense. They have a hole of abject nothingness at SS, and, as we saw this past weekend, and have seen over the first half with the 10 shutouts, they are prone to being shut down more than would seem optimal. A bat like Hanley's sure looks to make that less likely going forward.

And, again, it is a very Walt thing to do to target just such a player. I hope it's on his radar if the Marlins are indeed serious about "being open to anything".

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:19 PM
What is one dimensional about Hanley Ramirez's bat? He has a career line of .314/.385/.525/.910. Abysmal is what we currently have at SS, not Ramirez.

BTW, not that it is likely to happen but I would absolutely empty the farm to bring back Ramirez and Johnson. There would be no untouchables.

Indeed.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:20 PM
What is one dimensional about Hanley Ramirez's bat? He has a career line of .314/.385/.525/.910. Abysmal is what we currently have at SS, not Ramirez.

BTW, not that it is likely to happen but I would absolutely empty the farm to bring back Ramirez and Johnson. There would be no untouchables.

I would empty the farm of everything including the tractors for Johnson.

Marc D
07-11-2010, 10:23 PM
I would empty the farm of everything including the tractors for Johnson.


Agreed.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:29 PM
A reminder of Ramirez's offensive skills:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ramirha01.shtml

Career OPS is .911. Has HR/SB seasons of 17/51, 29/51, 33/35 and 24/27. And where the Marlins play their home ball is NOT an offensive paradise...

Plus, acquiring him ensures he does NOT end up in, say, St. Louis, where goodness knows they have their own gaping need at SS...

ETA: Hanley is still just 26.

Falls City Beer
07-11-2010, 10:31 PM
Plus, acquiring him ensures he does NOT end up in, say, St. Louis, where goodness knows they have their own gaping need at SS...

St. Louis really doesn't have the swag to get him. I don't often say that, but they don't.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:33 PM
St. Louis really doesn't have the swag to get him. I don't often say that, but they don't.

And yet, over the years, they seem to find ways to get deals done for pieces just like Hanley...hopefully the reason for that is in Cincy now, but I won't be happy if he ends up with the Cardinals - something that seems to happen far too often in the last decade.

buckeyenut
07-11-2010, 10:36 PM
The bat I want is at SS. If Hanley is available, it is a very Walt thing to do to go get him.

Anyone, how do I find current WARs? What is Hanley vs. O-Cab?

ETA: They prob don't need Alonso, given Sanchez and Logan Morrison. Send Chapman/Cozart/Francisco/Mes for Hanley.

Then deal Alonso for a vet arm if need be.
That is a ton to send, but probably gets it done. I'd rather add in Frazier, Maloney and heist as well and get them to send back Johnson if we can work that kind of monster deal

Benihana
07-11-2010, 10:36 PM
\
BTW, not that it is likely to happen but I would absolutely empty the farm to bring back Ramirez and Johnson. There would be no untouchables.

Agreed. They could have any five guys they want in our minor leagues.

This team gets HanRam and Johnson and they are a dynasty for the next five years. I'd say that's worth any five minor leaguers. It's also about as likely to happen as the Reds getting shut-out for the next five games.

Marc D
07-11-2010, 10:45 PM
I really don't see the Marlins unloading either one to tell the truth. I know they have a history of unloading talent but as the article touches on, they have to have some sort of core to build around for that new park.

It would be great if Walt could make it happen but I'd be shocked to see Ramirez go anywhere. I'd be even more shocked to see them trade Johnson.

WVRedsFan
07-11-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't understand. It took years for this farm to be productive and now folks want to trade most of it for one or two players? Play Janish at short and work on the bullpen. None of those kids might make it, but Hanley would cause problems and I'm not that impressed with Johnson.

membengal
07-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I really don't see the Marlins unloading either one to tell the truth. I know they have a history of unloading talent but as the article touches on, they have to have some sort of core to build around for that new park.

It would be great if Walt could make it happen but I'd be shocked to see Ramirez go anywhere. I'd be even more shocked to see them trade Johnson.

Well, for my part, I am kinda hoping that Chapman would be the key to unlock it. Cuban immigrant, in that community, should have a powerful appeal to the Marlins heading to the new park.

savafan
07-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I really don't see the Marlins unloading either one to tell the truth. I know they have a history of unloading talent but as the article touches on, they have to have some sort of core to build around for that new park.

It would be great if Walt could make it happen but I'd be shocked to see Ramirez go anywhere. I'd be even more shocked to see them trade Johnson.

I'd HATE to lose Chapman, but he'd be a good start to build around for that new stadium. I truly believe he'll be a special player.

OnBaseMachine
07-11-2010, 10:50 PM
I don't understand. It took years for this farm to be productive and now folks want to trade most of it for one or two players? Play Janish at short and work on the bullpen. None of those kids might make it, but Hanley would cause problems and I'm not that impressed with Johnson.

Wait, what? You're not impressed with a 26-year old starting pitcher who currently leads the league with a 1.70 ERA, has a 2.1 BB/9, 9.1 K/9, and has allowed only 4 HR in 122 IP? Josh Johnson is the definition of an ace. He may be the best starting pitcher in baseball right now.

As for Hanley Ramirez, I don't care about his attitude problems. I would take him on my team any day of the week. He's a Hall of Fame talent.

Ron Madden
07-11-2010, 10:53 PM
I don't understand. It took years for this farm to be productive and now folks want to trade most of it for one or two players? Play Janish at short and work on the bullpen. None of those kids might make it, but Hanley would cause problems and I'm not that impressed with Johnson.

Johnson and Ramirez impress the hell outta me. ;)

Marc D
07-11-2010, 10:58 PM
Well, for my part, I am kinda hoping that Chapman would be the key to unlock it. Cuban immigrant, in that community, should have a powerful appeal to the Marlins heading to the new park.


I'd HATE to lose Chapman, but he'd be a good start to build around for that new stadium. I truly believe he'll be a special player.


Ok you guys sold me. Where do the Marlins sign?

Brutus
07-11-2010, 11:02 PM
I don't understand. It took years for this farm to be productive and now folks want to trade most of it for one or two players? Play Janish at short and work on the bullpen. None of those kids might make it, but Hanley would cause problems and I'm not that impressed with Johnson.

As OBM said, Johnson is the real deal. I've seen him pitch twice in person now here in Atlanta, and the guy is a hoss. He's constantly in the mid or upper 90's, works down in the zone and ahead of hitters and has a pretty good change to go with it. His command is tremendous. He is an ace in every sense of the word.

Mario-Rijo
07-11-2010, 11:09 PM
Ditto pretty much what everyone who is pro yes said for this hypothetical deal going down.

Bailey
Chapman
Francisco
Mes
Cozart
etc...


Though I'd be nearly as appreciative if Walt could just pry John Baker loose from them, a nice platoon mate with Hanny for the foreseeable future.

WVRedsFan
07-11-2010, 11:18 PM
Wait, what? You're not impressed with a 26-year old starting pitcher who currently leads the league with a 1.70 ERA, has a 2.1 BB/9, 9.1 K/9, and has allowed only 4 HR in 122 IP? Josh Johnson is the definition of an ace. He may be the best starting pitcher in baseball right now.

As for Hanley Ramirez, I don't care about his attitude problems. I would take him on my team any day of the week. He's a Hall of Fame talent.
Matter of my philosophy. We can go back to Volquez or we can talk Codero (who was a world beater when we signed him) or any number of others (Zito comes to mind). Pitchers are fragile things and to give up the farm for one is just against everything I believe. I'd sign him as a free agent, but give up the young Cueto for him? Never. Same reason I wasn't all giddy about the Cliff Lee rumors. Heck, as you know, I didn't even like the Volquez trade. It's just me. But for so long all I've heard on here is the farm, the farm, and now everyone wants to sell it. Confused? Yep.

Cedric
07-11-2010, 11:21 PM
Matter of my philosophy. We can go back to Volquez or we can talk Codero (who was a world beater when we signed him) or any number of others (Zito comes to mind). Pitchers are fragile things and to give up the farm for one is just against everything I believe. I'd sign him as a free agent, but give up the young Cueto for him? Never. Same reason I wasn't all giddy about the Cliff Lee rumors. Heck, as you know, I didn't even like the Volquez trade. It's just me. But for so long all I've heard on here is the farm, the farm, and now everyone wants to sell it. Confused? Yep.

You wouldn't trade Cueto for Josh Johnson? No rudeness, just not sure if you meant for Johnson or someone else.

M2
07-11-2010, 11:25 PM
Seems to me that the point of trading for Johnson would be to have Cueto and him in the rotation together.

WVRedsFan
07-11-2010, 11:26 PM
You wouldn't trade Cueto for Josh Johnson? No rudeness, just not sure if you meant for Johnson or someone else.
Nope. Not now. Just can't see it. Not enough history.

fearofpopvol1
07-11-2010, 11:41 PM
Ramirez is an abysmal fielder.

Get Johnson.

He's been bad this year, but in 2008, he was a tick better than neutral and in 2009 he was neutral.

He's definitely not likely to ever be anything better than neutral...but a neutral SS with a plus plus bat? Sign me up everyday and all day.

TheNext44
07-11-2010, 11:52 PM
He's been bad this year, but in 2008, he was a tick better than neutral and in 2009 he was neutral.

He's definitely not likely to ever be anything better than neutral...but a neutral SS with a plus plus bat? Sign me up everyday and all day.

Career, he's well below average at SS. Regardless, he will not be SS for much longer. Most likely CF in his future.

Still would love to have him as a Red, but I wouldn't empty the farm for him.

TheNext44
07-11-2010, 11:57 PM
Nope. Not now. Just can't see it. Not enough history.

I understand where you're coming from. There really are not a lot of pitchers who last long enough to trade the farm for. Best to develop you're own.

Johnson looks like the real deal, but that was said of a lot of pitchers who I've now forgotten.

fearofpopvol1
07-12-2010, 12:02 AM
Career, he's well below average at SS. Regardless, he will not be SS for much longer. Most likely CF in his future.

Still would love to have him as a Red, but I wouldn't empty the farm for him.

'07 was a dismal year for him in the field and has spiked his career numbers ('06 was pretty bad too). He's been getting better each year. He's now basically a neutral defender. He did fine the last 2 seasons, and needs to improve in the 2nd half of this season to stay in neutral territory for '10.

Ghosts of 1990
07-12-2010, 12:06 AM
Chapman, Volquez or Cueto might be attractive acquisitions in south Florida. If the Marlins would bite, would you include one in a deal for Ramirez (especially if there was another prospects-for-Oswalt, Haren or Carmona deal)?

Yonder Alonso might be the most attractive option of all for South Florida :eek:

corkedbat
07-12-2010, 12:10 AM
Yonder Alonso might be the most attractive option of all for South Florida :eek:

Yeah, and I'd include him, but I was thinking the Fish had some decent depth in young 1Bs.

Eric_the_Red
07-12-2010, 12:27 AM
Yeah, and I'd include him, but I was thinking the Fish had some decent depth in young 1Bs.

Yep, Gaby Sanchez is up now with Logan Morrison waiting in the wings.

REDREAD
07-12-2010, 11:22 AM
I know we are talking hypothetically here and for fun.. but I think it would be suicide to trade Chapman now. Not because of the talent swap though.

If we trade Chapman within roughly a year of signing him, before he even makes the big league team, we are going to have a real hard time signing any high profile Latin free agents in the future.. Other teams will tell the latin players that the Reds simply sign them for trade bait and have no interest in their future. In other words, we'd lose a lot of credibility.

nate
07-12-2010, 11:31 AM
Thanks very much, 320. That's what I was curious about.

That's BR's WAR which does not, I believe, include defense. Fangraphs has Hanley at 2.7 this year.

O-Cab is at 0.2 so far according to Fangraphs.

PuffyPig
07-12-2010, 11:55 AM
I would trade for Han-Ram, but tell him if there's any clubhouse problems, hustle problems, or other antics whatsoever, he gets the DFA boot. And then I'd follow through if neccesary.

320

Great idea, we trade half the (prospect) team for Ramirez then be prepared to give him the boot.

Hoosier Red
07-12-2010, 12:06 PM
I know we are talking hypothetically here and for fun.. but I think it would be suicide to trade Chapman now. Not because of the talent swap though.

If we trade Chapman within roughly a year of signing him, before he even makes the big league team, we are going to have a real hard time signing any high profile Latin free agents in the future.. Other teams will tell the latin players that the Reds simply sign them for trade bait and have no interest in their future. In other words, we'd lose a lot of credibility.

Do you think the players really care where they end up? The Reds got Chapman first and foremost because they offered enough in signing bonus to get it done.

OnBaseMachine
07-12-2010, 12:08 PM
I know we are talking hypothetically here and for fun.. but I think it would be suicide to trade Chapman now. Not because of the talent swap though.

If we trade Chapman within roughly a year of signing him, before he even makes the big league team, we are going to have a real hard time signing any high profile Latin free agents in the future.. Other teams will tell the latin players that the Reds simply sign them for trade bait and have no interest in their future. In other words, we'd lose a lot of credibility.

I agree with this. Based on the affect it could have on future Latin signings, and his incredible talent, I couldn't trade Chapman. I'd hate to see Chapman go elsewhere and develop into the next Randy Johnson. IMO there's just way too much talent in that young arm to trade.

flyer85
07-12-2010, 12:09 PM
HRam has been a 7 WAR player each of the last 2 season ... very rare player. On pace to be a 5+ WAR player this year.

kaldaniels
07-12-2010, 12:11 PM
Do you think the players really care where they end up? The Reds got Chapman first and foremost because they offered enough in signing bonus to get it done.

It would undercut any persuasion a team makes as to why a player should sign with their club. Moneytalks, but there are other considerations for some guys.

BCubb2003
07-12-2010, 12:28 PM
It sounds like Hanley Ramirez is the anti-Rolen. I don't think the front office wants to go that direction. Also, I've long suspected that the front office doesn't see much of a problem at short. They like the aging diminished but steady vet over the athletic but erratic alternative.

Homer Bailey
07-12-2010, 12:32 PM
In this thread, we have cut Hanley Ramirez, and would not trade Johnny Cueto for Josh Johnson.

I really thought I had seen it all.

_Sir_Charles_
07-12-2010, 01:01 PM
I don't want any part of Hanley Ramirez.

Call me old school, but that guy's a cancer.

I feel the same way. I'd love a fully tooled shortstop...but there are others out there. Hanley...pass.

You guys are seeing what a club can be like when the atmosphere is good and positive. You do NOT want a Michael Vick/Dennis Rodman - type of distraction in the clubhouse. Production is great...but character DOES matter. And he ain't got it.

Scrap Irony
07-12-2010, 01:19 PM
I'd back up the proverbial prospect truck for Johnson and Ramirez, banking on Rolen's leadership and team karma to keep Ramirez in line.

But the two teams don't fit very well together, as Florida wouldn't want Alonso, Cincinnati's prime trade bait. It would take a third team.

Mario-Rijo
07-12-2010, 01:37 PM
I feel the same way. I'd love a fully tooled shortstop...but there are others out there. Hanley...pass.

You guys are seeing what a club can be like when the atmosphere is good and positive. You do NOT want a Michael Vick/Dennis Rodman - type of distraction in the clubhouse. Production is great...but character DOES matter. And he ain't got it.

Ya know I'm the 1st one to consider things like chemistry and character but other than one episode for Hanley I don't get this stigma being attached to him. Would you or others like to give more examples of why he is now a cancer after an isolated incident? If not I think it's unfair to assume that he will continue to have such episodes. It's not unreasonable to think he will, it's fair to assume it's a possiblity but likewise not unreasonable to think that he couldn't or didn't learn an important lesson from a tough situation.

Even an Eagle Scout has made or will make mistakes is he too a cancer?

Cedric
07-12-2010, 01:39 PM
Hanley would get run out of this town on a rail. It's a sad truth in this baseball city.

Homer Bailey
07-12-2010, 02:09 PM
Hanley would get run out of this town on a rail. It's a sad truth in this baseball city.

It's not a truth. It's an opinion.

I think people are wayyyy overrating how much of a "cancer" Hanley is. I think the jogging incident left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, but there's no way his bat wouldn't look good in this lineup.

Regardless, I think there is no way the Reds would ever trade for him, but I'd give up a TON to get him.

REDREAD
07-12-2010, 02:28 PM
Do you think the players really care where they end up? The Reds got Chapman first and foremost because they offered enough in signing bonus to get it done.

Some do care. The Reds missed out on another Latin pitcher to the A's.
The prospect felt that he'd get better instruction with the A's and took less money to go there. Countless other examples of guys that don't necessarily take the highest bonus as their only criteria for signing.

IMO, other teams could spin a Chapman trade now as the Reds acting in bad faith.. They could tell the next wonderkid that if he signs with the Reds, they'll trade him to pittsburg 6 months later..

membengal
07-12-2010, 02:29 PM
And then that prospect blew out his elbow and had Tommy John surgery. The best laid plans...

And, I am wondering how much complaining amongst those in the Latino community would be done by the Reds sending Chapman to Florida, a place where he would be culturally at home. It's not exactly Siberia.

I find this angle not one which is particularly persuasive as a concern...

Dan
07-12-2010, 02:33 PM
Cueto should be untouchable at this point.

bucksfan2
07-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Cueto should be untouchable at this point.

Not if the right deal comes around. IMO Josh Johnson is better than Cueto, therefore you make that trade.

BRM
07-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Rosenthal is saying Cantu and Ross have been made available but they are holding off on Uggla and Nolasco for now.

Brutus
07-12-2010, 04:23 PM
Cueto should be untouchable at this point.

No one should ever be untouchable. If a deal is available that improves the club, any player should be included if necessary to do so.

I don't see the likelihood of many trades worth trading Cueto for, admittedly. However, for Josh Johnson or Hanley Ramirez, I'd be inclined to call either a heck of an upgrade.

_Sir_Charles_
07-12-2010, 06:56 PM
Ya know I'm the 1st one to consider things like chemistry and character but other than one episode for Hanley I don't get this stigma being attached to him. Would you or others like to give more examples of why he is now a cancer after an isolated incident? If not I think it's unfair to assume that he will continue to have such episodes. It's not unreasonable to think he will, it's fair to assume it's a possiblity but likewise not unreasonable to think that he couldn't or didn't learn an important lesson from a tough situation.

Even an Eagle Scout has made or will make mistakes is he too a cancer?

But add in the stuff like him hitting a high chopper near the plate and just standing there watching it without ever moving out of the box...that sort of stuff happens with him quite a bit.

His lack of hustle and effort are more than just mildly disturbing. He makes Phillips look like Rosales.

membengal
07-12-2010, 07:13 PM
Folks, I thought part of Scott Rolen's goodness was being the on-field guy who doesn't brook stuff like you all are busy worrying about with Hanley...

And I thought part of Dusty's appeal was being the kind of manager who could work with a personality like Hanley's...he did pretty okay with Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent's mercurialness in SF...

nate
07-12-2010, 07:18 PM
Folks, I thought part of Scott Rolen's goodness was being the on-field guy who doesn't brook stuff like you all are busy worrying about with Hanley...

And I thought part of Dusty's appeal was being the kind of manager who could work with a personality like Hanley's...he did pretty okay with Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent's mercurialness in SF...

I was thinking the same thing. Wouldn't Dusty be a good manager for Hanley?

Mario-Rijo
07-13-2010, 10:02 AM
But add in the stuff like him hitting a high chopper near the plate and just standing there watching it without ever moving out of the box...that sort of stuff happens with him quite a bit.

His lack of hustle and effort are more than just mildly disturbing. He makes Phillips look like Rosales.

Phillips FWIW is seemingly coming around, kudos to Dusty for that. Perhaps Dusty could have a similiar influence on Hanley. No gaurantees just saying not everyone is a lost 'cause.

Mario-Rijo
07-13-2010, 10:15 AM
No one should ever be untouchable. If a deal is available that improves the club, any player should be included if necessary to do so.

I don't see the likelihood of many trades worth trading Cueto for, admittedly. However, for Josh Johnson or Hanley Ramirez, I'd be inclined to call either a heck of an upgrade.

To me Votto is untouchable, there is nearly no one I would trade him for right now. He is what I'd like the face of our franchise to be classy, productive, humble and hard working driven by winning. And at this very moment a whole lot cheaper than anyone else of his ilk, that we know of anyway. One of the few guys I might be inclined to deal him for (as an example) would be Joe Mauer but these types just don't get dealt. Others I liken Joey to are Pujols, Jeter, Ichiro, Berkman (once upon a time) maybe Ryan Braun. Mauer because of his positional value would be one of very few I would give consideration to.

The only other Red I felt this way about was Barry Larkin (I am too young to do the same with the BRM).

RedsMan3203
07-14-2010, 12:40 PM
Cody Ross in LF sharing time with Gomes... Nix DFA... Improves the whole ball club alot with just 1 player.

Brutus
07-14-2010, 12:45 PM
To me Votto is untouchable, there is nearly no one I would trade him for right now. He is what I'd like the face of our franchise to be classy, productive, humble and hard working driven by winning. And at this very moment a whole lot cheaper than anyone else of his ilk, that we know of anyway. One of the few guys I might be inclined to deal him for (as an example) would be Joe Mauer but these types just don't get dealt. Others I liken Joey to are Pujols, Jeter, Ichiro, Berkman (once upon a time) maybe Ryan Braun. Mauer because of his positional value would be one of very few I would give consideration to.

The only other Red I felt this way about was Barry Larkin (I am too young to do the same with the BRM).

I agree that I can't see including Votto in any trade, as I truly believe he's one of the best players in the game. But philosophically, if someone made an offer including several impact players, it's something you always consider. I'm not saying the likelihood of that ever happening is too great -- I seriously doubt an offer would come that makes me willing to trade him -- I'm just saying that I don't believe it should ever be ruled out.

fearofpopvol1
07-14-2010, 03:30 PM
Josh Johnson last night looked incredible. I think he would easily be as good as Lee. It would probably take more to land him since I don't think he's a FA at the end of the season, but that guy anchoring the rotation would just really put Cincy in an amazing spot.

Anyone want to take a stab at what it would take to land him?