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Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 07:47 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/beinfest-marlins-open-to-everything.html

I throw everything I can at them to get Josh Johnson. I'd even take Cantu off their hands to give Rolen more days off to stay fresh.

I'd trade our entire triple A roster plus part of our double A and single A rosters for Johnson and Cantu, and a couple of their relievers such as Hensley and Nunez. :D :p: ;)

RedsFanInBama
07-11-2010, 07:52 PM
I'm all for getting Josh Johnson, but can he hit? It seems like every time we face a pitcher that is even above average we struggle, while feasting on the mediocre and below average guys.

Johnson would be the one guy out there I would be happy about getting without worrying about the other needs on the team this season because he is under contract for at least a couple more years beyond this one.

GIDP
07-11-2010, 08:02 PM
Josh Johnson please! In all seriousness Uggla Cantu and Cody Ross are guys they probably are only really thinking about trading. None of those really fit the Reds other than Ross and thats if we got rid of Heisey.

Leo Nunez would be a nice grab. 35 strike outs and 9 walks? Yes please.

Hey Meat
07-11-2010, 08:05 PM
Josh Johnson would be a tremendous addition to this team. I'm all for adding him.

BringDownMugabe
07-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Regarding trading for Hanley Ramirez, I wonder if there's any precedent for trading for a 26 year old perennial All Star shortstop?

This is his current contract:
10:$7M
11:$11M
12:$15M
13:$15.5M
14:$16M

So here's already locked up for another 3.5 seasons, and all things considered, that contract is pretty fair.

The only trade I can remember where a player of Ramirez's stature and age being traded was Miguel Cabrera. So I think looking at that trade can give us some idea at what we would have to give up in order to get him.

The Tigers got Hanley Ramirez and Dontrelle Willis (basically a throw-in and took on his contract) for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Mike Rabelo, Eulogio De La Cruz, Dallas Trahern, and Burke Bandenhop.

At the time...
Cameron Maybin was a consensus Top 10 MLB prospect.
Andrew Miller was a consensus Top 25 MLB prospects.
Mike Rabelo was projected as a switch-hitting back-up catcher in the majors (at the time).
De La Cruz was a bullpen arm.
Bandenhop was projected as an end of the rotation starter.
Trahern is another projected end of the rotation starter.

Note, obviously these were projections at the time of the trade (half of those prospects didn't amount to anything).

So if we're trading for Hanley Ramirez, I'd imagine it would have to start off somethingn like this:

Reds get: Hanley Ramirez

Marlins get:
Yonder Alonso
Travis Wood
Juan Francisco
Todd Frazier
+Minor Leaguers in Low A

That's just an estimate. Keep in mind we don't have any prospects that highly regarded such as Miller and Maybin, so we'd have to probably throw in an additional top prospect (of ours) such as Frazier (maybe even Mesoraco).

Vottomatic
07-11-2010, 10:39 PM
Regarding trading for Hanley Ramirez, I wonder if there's any precedent for trading for a 26 year old perennial All Star shortstop?

This is his current contract:
10:$7M
11:$11M
12:$15M
13:$15.5M
14:$16M

So here's already locked up for another 3.5 seasons, and all things considered, that contract is pretty fair.

The only trade I can remember where a player of Ramirez's stature and age being traded was Miguel Cabrera. So I think looking at that trade can give us some idea at what we would have to give up in order to get him.

The Tigers got Hanley Ramirez and Dontrelle Willis (basically a throw-in and took on his contract) for Cameron Maybin, Andrew Miller, Mike Rabelo, Eulogio De La Cruz, Dallas Trahern, and Burke Bandenhop.

At the time...
Cameron Maybin was a consensus Top 10 MLB prospect.
Andrew Miller was a consensus Top 25 MLB prospects.
Mike Rabelo was projected as a switch-hitting back-up catcher in the majors (at the time).
De La Cruz was a bullpen arm.
Bandenhop was projected as an end of the rotation starter.
Trahern is another projected end of the rotation starter.

Note, obviously these were projections at the time of the trade (half of those prospects didn't amount to anything).

So if we're trading for Hanley Ramirez, I'd imagine it would have to start off somethingn like this:

Reds get: Hanley Ramirez

Marlins get:
Yonder Alonso
Travis Wood
Juan Francisco
Todd Frazier
+Minor Leaguers in Low A

That's just an estimate. Keep in mind we don't have any prospects that highly regarded such as Miller and Maybin, so we'd have to probably throw in an additional top prospect (of ours) such as Frazier (maybe even Mesoraco).

Substitute Bailey for Wood and I do that trade in a heartbeat. But the Reds would never add that much payroll.

BringDownMugabe
07-11-2010, 10:44 PM
Bailey's value is next to worthless right now. When he's healthy, he's horribly inconsistent. Even worse, he's hurt with some "mysterious shoulder" injury now with no timetable for his return.

BringDownMugabe
07-11-2010, 11:13 PM
On a side note, some posters seem to think Chapman is a valuable trading commodity. I couldn't disagree anymore. Chapman isn't some prospect that comes with the MLB minimum salary. The Reds outbid everybody else last offseason and paid the kid $30 MM. If the Marlins want to have a firesale, the last thing they want to do is trade for a AAA pitcher who has a 4.50+ ERA and 1.50+ WHIP that is locked into a $30 MM contract. Chapman, at this point, as no value -- atleast not for the Marlins who's payroll is less than ARod's annual salary. Not to mention, but I don't know if he can even be traded yet.

redsfan_12
07-12-2010, 12:03 AM
I sure hope we don't get rid of Wood. I know he's only had 3 starts, but I have the same feeling I had about Leake after 3 starts. On the other hand, I'd get rid of Homer in a heartbeat. I think he's going nowhere with us.

sabometrics
07-12-2010, 12:49 AM
On a side note, some posters seem to think Chapman is a valuable trading commodity. I couldn't disagree anymore. Chapman isn't some prospect that comes with the MLB minimum salary. The Reds outbid everybody else last offseason and paid the kid $30 MM. If the Marlins want to have a firesale, the last thing they want to do is trade for a AAA pitcher who has a 4.50+ ERA and 1.50+ WHIP that is locked into a $30 MM contract. Chapman, at this point, as no value -- atleast not for the Marlins who's payroll is less than ARod's annual salary. Not to mention, but I don't know if he can even be traded yet.

I think you're overstating how cheap the Marlins F.O. is. They're stingy, but 6 years 30 million is not terrible considering the talent. They would be forced to listen to any Chapman offers just on his potential alone. Of course all this is pointless, because Walt would not be offering him, I'm sure.

RiverRat13
07-12-2010, 12:52 AM
Josh Johnson please! In all seriousness Uggla Cantu and Cody Ross are guys they probably are only really thinking about trading. None of those really fit the Reds other than Ross and thats if we got rid of Heisey.


This is 100% correct. Honestly, I'm surprised the guys on the ORG are serious thought to the idea of getting Johnson or HanRam. No way Florida trades either of those two when they are opening a new park. The three you mentioned are the ones who are most likely to be dealt.

RedsFanIN
07-12-2010, 12:53 AM
I don’t necessarily think we need to get rid of Homer. I think he would make an excellent closer. I just have a feeling that he could be unstoppable pitch 1 to 2 innings at a time with no restrictions (I keep thinking of last yr when he made Albert look lost at the plate which is hard to do). I would throw him in the setup roll for the rest of this yr and next (unless we unload Coco) with the understanding that he is to be our future closer.

BringDownMugabe
07-12-2010, 01:18 AM
I think you're overstating how cheap the Marlins F.O. is. They're stingy, but 6 years 30 million is not terrible considering the talent. They would be forced to listen to any Chapman offers just on his potential alone. Of course all this is pointless, because Walt would not be offering him, I'm sure.

If the Marlins, or any team for that matter, wanted Chapman bad enough, they could have had him last offseason. The Reds simply were willing to pay the most for his services. The Marlins don't want to dump $80 MM in future contracts just to receive $30 MM back. If money wasn't an issue, there best players wouldn't be available.

Vottomatic
07-12-2010, 03:45 PM
If the Marlins, or any team for that matter, wanted Chapman bad enough, they could have had him last offseason. The Reds simply were willing to pay the most for his services. The Marlins don't want to dump $80 MM in future contracts just to receive $30 MM back. If money wasn't an issue, there best players wouldn't be available.

I'd trade Chapman for Josh Johnson in a heartbeat.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:53 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/beinfest-marlins-open-to-everything.html

I throw everything I can at them to get Josh Johnson. I'd even take Cantu off their hands to give Rolen more days off to stay fresh.

I'd trade our entire triple A roster plus part of our double A and single A rosters for Johnson and Cantu, and a couple of their relievers such as Hensley and Nunez. :D :p: ;)


Ah NO. We have starting pitching. Last time I checked this past road trip, SP was not our problem. Can this Johnson kid hit?:thumbup:

brm7675
07-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Reds get: Hanley Ramirez

Marlins get:
Yonder Alonso
Travis Wood
Juan Francisco
Todd Frazier
+Minor Leaguers in Low A

That's just an estimate. Keep in mind we don't have any prospects that highly regarded such as Miller and Maybin, so we'd have to probably throw in an additional top prospect (of ours) such as Frazier (maybe even Mesoraco).

Remove Wood and insert Homer Bailey or Malloney then yes, Wood goes no where. Plus there is NWIH the fish trade Ramirez or Johnson unless they are getting say Albert or CC or something along those lines.

vottofan4life
07-12-2010, 04:19 PM
Reds need to get Hanley Ramirez and Cody Ross Or Josh Johnson and Cody Ross

A package for both couples would have to contain: Homer Bailey, Yonder Alonso, Zack Cozart, Enerio Del Rosario, Drew Stubbs, and either Mez or Todd Frazier

Imagine a lineup of
Brandon Phillips 2b
Jay Bruce RF
Joey Votto 1b
Hanley Ramirez SS
Scott Rolen 3b
Johnny Gomes/Cody Ross LF
Chris Heisey CF
Ryan Hanigan C
P

or a rotation of
1. Josh Johnson
2. Volquez
3. Arroyo
4. Cueto
5. Travis Wood/ Mike Leake/ Aaron Harang

Pretty sick

brm7675
07-12-2010, 04:26 PM
Reds need to get Hanley Ramirez and Cody Ross Or Josh Johnson and Cody Ross

A package for both couples would have to contain: Homer Bailey, Yonder Alonso, Zack Cozart, Enerio Del Rosario, Drew Stubbs, and either Mez or Todd Frazier

Imagine a lineup of
Brandon Phillips 2b
Jay Bruce RF
Joey Votto 1b
Hanley Ramirez SS
Scott Rolen 3b
Johnny Gomes/Cody Ross LF
Chris Heisey CF
Ryan Hanigan C
P

or a rotation of
1. Josh Johnson
2. Volquez
3. Arroyo
4. Cueto
5. Travis Wood/ Mike Leake/ Aaron Harang

Pretty sick

We had Cody and traded him away, I don't see them trading back for a backup OF.

GIDP
07-12-2010, 04:26 PM
Id be tempted to trade Joey Votto for Josh Johnson. I wouldnt do it but it would make me think twice.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Id be tempted to trade Joey Votto for Josh Johnson. I wouldnt do it but it would make me think twice.

your kidding right?

ILoveWilly
07-12-2010, 04:28 PM
Re: Beinfest: Marlins Open To Everything

Umm ... does this mean they would be open to three ways too? :eek:

GIDP
07-12-2010, 04:29 PM
your kidding right?

No I am not. I would think about it, but ultimately I wouldnt.

texasdave
07-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Umm ... does this mean they would be open to three ways too? :eek:

Skyline 3-ways certainly. Gold Star not so much. :)

brm7675
07-12-2010, 04:53 PM
No I am not. I would think about it, but ultimately I wouldnt.

There are very few players let alone pitchers I would even "think' about when it comes to Votto. Pitchers play only every 5th day, Johnson while good, needs more of a track record before I would consider. Now I would offer say Stubbs or Heisey as part of the deal, but Votto is going to be one of those special players (See Barry Larkin) for the Reds and outside of maybe a Roy Halliday, i don't deal those types or even think about it.

muddie
07-12-2010, 05:10 PM
Ah NO. We have starting pitching. Last time I checked this past road trip, SP was not our problem. Can this Johnson kid hit?:thumbup:



I do concern myself that the offense can continue to be as productive as it has been. At this point though, that's just something to watch.

I posted these words Saturday morning in another thread here. The Reds have lost two 1-0 games since. I don't fret over pitching, but I do wonder if this team will hit like they have. I agree that SP is pretty reliable at this point.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 05:14 PM
I do concern myself that the offense can continue to be as productive as it has been. At this point though, that's just something to watch.

I posted these words Saturday morning in another thread here. The Reds have lost two 1-0 games since. I don't fret over pitching, but I do wonder if this team will hit like they have. I agree that SP is pretty reliable at this point.

You do know we faced probably the best pitcher in baseball on Saturday night and got hits off of him, and on Sunday faced a pretty good pitcher again in Hamel who just two years ago was one of the most dominating pitchers in the NL. Great pitching will just about always shut down great hitting, ask the Yankees about that and their matchups against Lee last year in the WS.

Vottomatic
07-12-2010, 06:09 PM
I'd trade Chapman as the centerpiece of a group of prospects right now to the Fish for Josh Johnson and maybe Cantu as the backup 3B to spell Rolen.

I think this gets it done for us. We'd have our pitching ace reasonably priced and under contract through 2013 ($7.75M in '11, $13.75M in '12, and $13.75M in '13), and a solid backup 3B/1B with some power in Cantu, who is no worse defensively than Cairo.

Frankly, Chapman isn't as far along as I was lead to believe, and I'm not as excited about his future as other are. I see guys like Wood and Leake that know how to pitch, are getting the job done masterfully, while not throwing 100 mph...........and then I see a guy who struggles getting the ball around the plate, hits a bunch of batters, and walks a bunch of batters, in triple A, no less. He's not impressing that much and he's only in triple A, and we're paying him a boatload.

Chapman, Alonso, Francisco (3 spanish players.....Florida loves them), and a few others for Johnson/Cantu.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 06:12 PM
I'd trade Chapman as the centerpiece of a group of prospects right now to the Fish for Josh Johnson and maybe Cantu as the backup 3B to spell Rolen.

I think this gets it done for us. We'd have our pitching ace reasonably priced and under contract through 2013 ($7.75M in '11, $13.75M in '12, and $13.75M in '13), and a solid backup 3B/1B with some power in Cantu, who is no worse defensively than Cairo.

Frankly, Chapman isn't as far along as I was lead to believe, and I'm not as excited about his future as other are. I see guys like Wood and Leake that know how to pitch, are getting the job done masterfully, while not throwing 100 mph...........and then I see a guy who struggles getting the ball around the plate, hits a bunch of batters, and walks a bunch of batters, in triple A, no less. He's not impressing that much and he's only in triple A, and we're paying him a boatload.

Chapman, Alonso, Francisco (3 spanish players.....Florida loves them), and a few others for Johnson/Cantu.

Trust me on this, there is zero, no less then zero chance the Reds deal Chapman. Plus I don't see the Fish dealing Josh either.

muddie
07-12-2010, 06:30 PM
You do know we faced probably the best pitcher in baseball on Saturday night and got hits off of him, and on Sunday faced a pretty good pitcher again in Hamel who just two years ago was one of the most dominating pitchers in the NL. Great pitching will just about always shut down great hitting, ask the Yankees about that and their matchups against Lee last year in the WS.

I do know the Reds faced a couple of marquee guys to close the first half. We'll see if my concerns are legitimate in the second half, hope not.

brm7675
07-12-2010, 06:48 PM
I do know the Reds faced a couple of marquee guys to close the first half. We'll see if my concerns are legitimate in the second half, hope not.

There are like maybe 2-3 other pitchers in the NL with the level of talent of Halliday, and 2 of them play in St. Louis.

BringDownMugabe
07-12-2010, 07:08 PM
Chapman has very little trade value. Again, a 22 year old AAA pitcher with a 4.50 ERA and 1.50 WHIP signed to a $30 MM contract won't draw much interest.

GIDP
07-12-2010, 08:50 PM
My issue with the Reds are their ABs against those good pitchers. They swing early and often. They do the pitcher a lot of favors.

NorrisHopper30
07-12-2010, 10:08 PM
Give them the FARM for Hanley

Vottomatic
07-12-2010, 10:13 PM
Trust me on this, there is zero, no less then zero chance the Reds deal Chapman. Plus I don't see the Fish dealing Josh either.

Yep. I agree.

But then there's nothing left to discuss.

I don't want crybaby Hanley Ramirez. He'd be a cancer to our team and his contract is ridiculous when we have to pay Votto and others in the near future. Cracks me up reading that some people want to trade for him.

Pitching is where it's at. An ace pitcher is where it's at. If you can't get Josh Johnson from the Fish, then move on.

Nothing left to see here folks. Move on.

brm7675
07-13-2010, 12:13 PM
Yep. I agree.

But then there's nothing left to discuss.

I don't want crybaby Hanley Ramirez. He'd be a cancer to our team and his contract is ridiculous when we have to pay Votto and others in the near future. Cracks me up reading that some people want to trade for him.

Pitching is where it's at. An ace pitcher is where it's at. If you can't get Josh Johnson from the Fish, then move on.

Nothing left to see here folks. Move on.

Who knows maybe a change of teams, a different standing in the race, some very strong vet leadership and Hanley is a different guy. right now he is a game changer at his position, you can't say no without thinking about it.

krm1580
07-13-2010, 12:34 PM
In my opinion this whole thing is much ado about nothing. Hanley Ramirez and Josh Johnson will not be going anywhere this season period. My guess is this is probably a statement thrown out to bring in buyers in an attempt to unload lesser guys like Uggla and Cantu.

BringDownMugabe
07-13-2010, 01:17 PM
How's Hanley Ramirez a cancer? If it weren't for that "lack of hustle" play, the word wouldn't even be associated with Ramirez. Sorry but if you have an opportunity to get Ramirez without giving up any of your everyday starting players, you do it.

brm7675
07-13-2010, 01:20 PM
How's Hanley Ramirez a cancer? If it weren't for that "lack of hustle" play, the word wouldn't even be associated with Ramirez. Sorry but if you have an opportunity to get Ramirez without giving up any of your everyday starting players, you do it.

Hey they can have some of the Reds every day starting players. To get this kid I would be willing to part with:

Orlando or Stubbs or Hannigan or Ramon...any of those everyday players can go without me having any issue...:cool:

Vottomatic
07-13-2010, 04:23 PM
Who knows maybe a change of teams, a different standing in the race, some very strong vet leadership and Hanley is a different guy. right now he is a game changer at his position, you can't say no without thinking about it.

I just did. I don't want Hanley.